1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. Oh Man, welcome back to it could 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: Happen here, a podcast about it meaning bad things happening here, 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: meaning you know here obviously here at cool Zone, we 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a habit of talking about cults. 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: Some of you who have been listening to Behind the 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Bastard since the beginning will remember how we kind of 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: started that series with several long episodes about a guy 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: named Keith Ranieri. And today we're here to talk with 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: a wonderful author and journalist, Sarah Berman, who has written 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: both about the Nexium cult and about a new cult 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: that some of you are probably familiar with if you 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: caught the recent Netflix documentary. Prime has a documentary out 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: too on the Twin Flames cult, and so we're going 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: to introduce why this is such an interesting cult. White's 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: kind of groundbreaking. But first, Sarah, welcome so much to 16 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: the show. Graham, Hey, Hey. 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: So good to be here. Thank you for inviting me. 18 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Sarah, your book is called Don't Call It a Cult, 19 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: wonderful book about the Nexium cult, and yeah, you were 20 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: You are kind of the person who first I'm not 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: sure if you're the very first person to ever report 22 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: on Twin Flames, But you're certainly the person who broke 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: the story in a meaningful and detailed way. How did 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: you well, First off, we shuld probably start with how 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: would you describe twin Flames to people? Right? 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: So, twin Flames Universe began as sort of a YouTube 27 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: channel and a Facebook group that was all about finding 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: true love. So this group promises not only that you 29 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: find your true love, but also that you will find 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: career fulfillment and enlightenment and basically everything good will happen 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: to you. Miracles will happen only if you spend thousands 32 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: of dollars on their coursework and keep up with their 33 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: sort of spiritual homework, which is a never ending treadmill, 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: and eventually it sort of becomes, you know, an all 35 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 2: powerful control over people's lives, where they go, who they 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: interact with, even their life partner, even their gender identity. 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, lots of people calling it a matchmaking cult. 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a matchmaking I mean. One of the things 39 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: that I think is interesting to me about the kind 40 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: of like rhetoric of the of the cult leaders, and 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: this is one that there do seem to be kind 42 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: of two people heading it up, a couple is the 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: idea that like they have the ability to see who 44 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: someone's soulmate is, and like that's a that's kind of 45 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: a it both sort of. I think the appeal this 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: has speaks to, among other things, kind of the deep 47 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: loneliness that a lot of younger people feel, you know, 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: as we're dealing with this kind of increasingly closed off, 49 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: isolated nature of society, especially since COVID, as well as 50 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: kind of mixing that with some of these you know, 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: much longer standing older cult traditions in a way that 52 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: felt really really interesting to me and also like something 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: that could only exist now. Yeah, totally. 54 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much to impact there. So in their 55 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 2: early days in twenty fourteen, this couple Jeff and Shelia, 56 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: I mean Shell is actually a Megan, but Shelia is 57 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: the name she arrived at through some conscious journeying. Sure, 58 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: they have these videos where they just met and they 59 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: are in love and they are making eyes at each 60 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 2: other and this is something to attain. It was sort 61 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: of started as this you know, romantic YouTuber content, and 62 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: then they start selling Yes you can have this too, 63 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: all you have to do is buy our you know, 64 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: coursework and whatnot. And I think it does speak to, 65 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: especially during the pandemic, a sort of deep dark loneliness 66 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: in isolation that's happening where people are enticed by this 67 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: couple who they're just regular, you know, Michigan white people. 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: They're making eyes at each other. Doesn't look like anything 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: special to an outsider, but clearly, you know, thousands of 70 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: people have sort of lashed onto it. Have you know, 71 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: hoped that this secret knowledge that this group is giving them, 72 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: you know, will bring them happiness. And because it's sort 73 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: of an all encompassing ideology where if you even question 74 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 2: the group, well then you are definitely never going to 75 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: see your life partner and will probably see hell at 76 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: some point in your life, you know, it just creates 77 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 2: this perverse incentive to just keep pouring time and effort 78 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 2: into this group in a way that yeah, I don't 79 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: think could exist in any other timeframe, especially not through Zoom. Right, 80 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: so most of these classes that they sell are happening 81 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: on Zoom, just like you and I are on today, 82 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: so that you know, next could never achieve. Right, this 83 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: group has achieved a level of you know, connection and 84 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: I don't know, just getting into people's brain stems through 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: a laptop screen, which is incredible for our time. 86 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very I mean again, this is part of 87 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: what's so modern about it is that it appears to 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: work entirely like cults and particularly cult leaders are tend 89 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: to be such social phenomena. This is nearly always a 90 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: thing that involves person to person contact, and in fact, 91 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: one of the things any cult expert will tell you 92 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: is a hallmark of a cult is it's the focus 93 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: it puts on isolating members and perspective members away from 94 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: their friends and their family and keeping them under the 95 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: power of the cult leader at all times. And this 96 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: is very people are not all together, they're not all 97 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: living in one area, they're geographically isolated. The dynamics that 98 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: this reproduces itself with our parasocial dynamics, the same dynamics 99 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: podcast listeners have with like like like you know, it's 100 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: a more extreme version of that. But it's part of 101 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: this thing we see with twitch streamers, we see it 102 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: with like YouTubers, this kind of and it solves one 103 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: of the mysteries because I've watched this dock with a 104 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: couple of friends who kept being like, well, these people 105 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: don't seem charismatic. They don't seem this doesn't seem like, 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like they could be attaining this degree 107 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: of control over people. And I think part of what 108 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: explains that is just like, well, someone may not seem 109 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: charismatic when you're watching little clips of them in a documentary, 110 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: but when they're in your ears and you know, on 111 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: calls with you and stuff all day every day, your 112 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: body builds up like they get through your defenses that way. 113 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: Like that's how parasocial relationships kind of work. 114 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, you just have the binging quality of how 115 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: people consume media these days. And it's the same for 116 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: you know, YouTube rabbit holes that radicalize sort of right 117 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: wing white men. So it's the same process. These folks 118 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: who I was speaking to, they were consuming up to 119 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 2: ten even fifteen hours of this content per day and 120 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: they were feeling like they had to keep up with 121 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: that just to maintain their coaching title or what have you. So, yes, 122 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: they have Jeff inside their head at all times. They 123 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: start speaking like him. You know, you can kind of 124 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: tell when an still involved member emails you that it 125 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: sounds just like the leaders. It is a yeah, fully saturating, 126 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: indoctrinating process. And I guess. Yeah, you don't have to 127 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: be particularly charismatic in person to achieve that kind of 128 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: saturation when you have the YouTube algorithm. You know. Unfortunately, 129 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: my YouTube algorithm is also ruined, so oh, my mess 130 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: up on YouTube is looking pretty It's yikes these days. 131 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: No, I actually discuss a really effective method of for 132 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: my own research in various cults, which is I just 133 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: used my roommate's YouTube premium account, so I have ruined 134 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: his life, but it's not a problem for me. So 135 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 1: it's worked out really well, is what I'm saying. 136 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I might try that solution, but I live 137 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: with my partners, so you might not appreciate. We'll see 138 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: how it goes, though. 139 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious how did you get on this story, 140 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: Like was what was your backstory there? 141 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was in the depths still of reporting 142 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: on Nexium. I don't believe the sentencing for Keith Rnieri 143 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: had happened yet at that point, so this was late 144 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen early twenty twenty. One of the mothers was 145 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: the first to reach out to me, and she had 146 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: two daughters who are featured in the Netflix series in 147 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: the Group, and she had told me that she was 148 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: cut off from all contact. That the only contact she 149 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 2: did have with one of her daughters was when she 150 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: sent thousands of dollars. And so that to me right away, 151 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: like you said, you know, isolating people from their family 152 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: members who might you know, raise questions or you know, 153 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: want to know more about what's happening, asking for money 154 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: so blatantly, you know, and denying contact based on an 155 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: amount of money sent. That all sounded pretty bad to me, 156 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 2: and so I started looking into it. That mom pointed 157 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: me towards Elle, who is also featured in the Netflix series. 158 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 2: She's also Katie in the Vanity Fair piece that later 159 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 2: came out after our reporting, and it just sort of 160 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 2: snowballed from there. I'll put me in touch with I 161 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: would say, half a dozen ex members at that point, 162 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: some different mothers started contacting me because they all were 163 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: sort of in a group chat trying to figure out 164 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: how they could rea established content contact with their mostly daughters. 165 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: That was my origin story. We put out a piece 166 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: fairly quickly. I tried to get it out within a 167 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: month or two of that first contact. 168 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that makes a lot of sense, and I 169 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: want to continue talking about this. We'll get into a 170 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: lot more, but first it's time for an ad break. 171 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: So here we go, ah, and we're back. Miyah. Did 172 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: you have anything you wanted to move into next? Yeah. 173 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: So there are some parts of this that are very 174 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: familiar in the sense of the combination of Christianity and 175 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 3: weird New Age spiritualism stuff. I think it is a 176 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: pretty old combination. I mean, the Moody is very famously 177 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 3: sort of pioneered this thing, and you know, you can 178 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 3: go back eight hundreds and find versions of it. The 179 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 3: thing that I think is interesting about it is the 180 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 3: way that they've effectively been doing conversion therapy on people. 181 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: And I don't know, this is something I haven't really 182 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 3: seen before from a cult, and I guess, I guess 183 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: I think the way into this is talking about the 184 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,479 Speaker 3: sort of divine masculine, divine feminine stuff. 185 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: For sure. 186 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree that this seemed new and you know, 187 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: sort of bizarre to me. And certainly I've already seen 188 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 2: on Twitter some right wing takes on it that give 189 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: me a lot of uncomfortable feelings because they're obviously taking 190 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: the wrong opposite lesson. You know, when I guess when 191 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: I watched this, I see see you can't tell someone 192 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: what their gender is. You know, it doesn't work, It 193 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: falls apart, it doesn't make sense. But I think, yeah, 194 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: something that's been taken away in some smaller circles is that, 195 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: oh see, you can coach someone to change their gender, 196 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: and that's you know, blame teachers, blame whoever for doing that. 197 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: So this particular group does have a divine masculine and 198 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,599 Speaker 2: divine feminine teaching that used to be a little more flimsy. 199 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: So in the early days they just said, if you're 200 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: in a queer couple, it just means one of you 201 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: has the more wearing pants vibe. You know, it wasn't 202 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: supposed to literally translate to a gender expression or a 203 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: gender identity. But later on, when you know, you had 204 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: this growing amount of you know, siss women who are 205 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: I mean, they're interested in finding their man, and that's 206 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: not happening because, you know, the group makes it very 207 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: hard to actually meet outside people. If you're on this 208 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: constant treadmill of doing spiritual homework, you don't have time 209 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 2: to meet you people, and maybe when you talk about it, 210 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: it's pushing people away. So eventually, in late twenty nineteen 211 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: they started actually making pairings and to get around the 212 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: fact that, you know, folks said, well, that's not my 213 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: you know, orientation, I'm not attracted to women. They started 214 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: actually telling people, well that you're the divine masculine and actually, 215 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: you know, you, going back your whole life, probably knew 216 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: this all along, and we're just revealing something to you. 217 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: And that sat the wrong way in a lot of cases, 218 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: and a lot of people left around that time, but 219 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: they successfully paired up I think more than a dozen 220 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 2: people around that time, and they continued to do pairings 221 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: into twenty twenty, and some folks did come along on 222 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: the journey. They did in some cases pursue top surgery 223 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: and hormones and have changed their names, changed their pronouns. 224 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's not. Obviously, there are moms who are 225 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: just barely coming to terms with this, and you know, 226 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: they're not always using the right language, and they're a 227 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: little confused, you know, and that confusion was often used 228 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: as a reason to cut off all contact, you know, 229 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: say hey, mom, you're transphobic, you know, and push them aside. 230 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: And so I think it is new in some sense, 231 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: but it's also very old in the sense that cults 232 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: often create a brand new identity for people, right, Like 233 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: new names when you join a cult is not a 234 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: new thing. That that's something that a lot of you know, 235 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: and changing hair, right. 236 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: Shaving the heads, that's like one of the O cult exactly. 237 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean this is I guess, an updated 238 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: version where I mean it's kind of smart in a 239 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: way that like people might be afraid to question it, right, 240 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: Like you're hiding behind something that sounds very progressive and 241 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: very inclusive. And that's what a lot of cults do, 242 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: is they hide in very progressive spacesh But yeah, it's 243 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: a lot. It's a lot to take in, and I 244 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: definitely like to bring experts up to speed on this 245 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: and get their perspectives because I don't know everything, you know, 246 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: I can't possibly pretend to know what's in someone's heart 247 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: and mind and body, you know, at any time. So 248 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: everyone is just working through it. Like one of the 249 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: experts in the documentary says, you know, some of these 250 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: folks could have been transmit all along, but the way 251 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: that they're being told to do it is can starting 252 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: to say the least. 253 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean I think there's some interesting stuff 254 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: with how they were able to do this, which is 255 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: even before they started forcely transitioning people, there was this 256 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: is I think the most trans people I've ever seen 257 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: in a cult like this, Like the number of people 258 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: who were trans going in was really high, and I 259 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 3: suspect that was how they were able to sort of 260 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 3: like like you know, like one of the people in 261 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 3: the documentary was talking about how she was like a 262 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 3: transforman she was being basically like tokenized by the group 263 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: as this like hey, we're like trans inclusive thing. And 264 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: I wonder how much of the way they were able 265 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,239 Speaker 3: to do this is from basically taking the firsthand experience 266 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 3: of like actual trans people and then like using that 267 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: to try to convince people of this really weird sort 268 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 3: of essentialist like we've decided that you're the divide and masculine, 269 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 3: so you have to transition to be a and now stuff. 270 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 2: The origin story of it is you're right in reaching 271 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: out to LGBTQ type communities, So folks like our Celia 272 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: who you see in the documentary, and also Jesse who 273 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: you see in the Netflix documentary. They were sent out 274 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 2: recruiting in queer spaces, so any type of queer Facebook group, 275 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: Twitter user, you know, YouTuber. They were in the comments 276 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: there talking about their twin Flame journey and talking about 277 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: how queer inclusive it was. So they were actively doing 278 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: that and it's fascinating to see. You know, you can 279 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: go back through Twitter history and find, you know, how 280 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: they were phrasing these things. You know, like that was 281 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 2: their job basically to do outreach for the group in 282 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 2: queer spaces. They also did lots of PTSD spaces, former 283 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: military spaces. You know, they really like tried to find 284 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 2: any slice of a person who might need a community, 285 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: who might be lonely, and sort of feed them into 286 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: the group. And you're right, I think if you have 287 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: a bunch of queer, open minded people in a space, 288 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: there's a lot you can do with you know, suggestion, 289 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 2: There's a lot you can do with a deck of 290 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: Tarot cards. It seems a lot of these, you know, 291 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: gender conversions started with a tarot reading where they would 292 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: just hold up a card that represented them or their 293 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: supposed partner and you know, sort of building off of that. 294 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: So it is it's new and old in so many 295 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: ways because yeah, you're just using the divine to basically 296 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: just dictate any aspect of someone's life. You know what 297 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: they eat, what they wear, where they go everything. 298 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean it's also we're talking about like 299 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: how how much of this kind of plays on loneliness, 300 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: the fact that people are desperate for companionship, that particularly 301 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: younger people are like dating less or more socially isolated, 302 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: and like, if you want to push that up to 303 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: the nth degree, you take a group of people who 304 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: is under siege right now and so particularly having trouble 305 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: like being safely out and around people right like, you 306 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: give them what looks like it's a safe, welcoming community 307 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: that's supportive of them, and if especially they have not 308 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: had that. Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's deeply insidious 309 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: and evil. 310 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: I would say, it's powerful stuff. I would say when 311 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: I go on the Facebook group, you know, I'm blocked now, 312 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: but when I could, it would you know, show folks 313 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: really deep into a fantasy, you know, like they want 314 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: a perfect life for themselves where they are openly welcomed 315 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: with open arms, where the people that they care about 316 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 2: care about them back, you know, and that's often not 317 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: actually the case in their home life, but it seems 318 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: to be real on this Facebook page, and they think, 319 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: you know, if I just put in the work, this 320 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: will happen for me, that straight guy who I'm into 321 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: is going to come around and see that we're twin flames. 322 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: And so yeah, it definitely also feeds into a bit 323 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 2: of fantasy and delusion. That's you know, I think maybe 324 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: a symptom of us being so isolated in our you know, 325 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: pandemic brain spaces. 326 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: Speaking of isolated shit, Well, it's an AD, it's an 327 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: AD break. I don't I don't know anything it goes 328 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: with that, But here's some ads. Ah and we're back. Sorry, 329 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: you've just encountered some of our classic incombatant AD transitions. 330 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: But what's not incompetent is your reporting on this subject. 331 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: And I'm I'm curious as you realize how potentially a 332 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: lot of what's going on in this cult, with this 333 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: divide masculine divide feminine stuff, could, if not handled carefully, 334 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: play into some really pernicious culture war stuff that's going 335 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: on in the country right now. How do you kind of, 336 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: like how consciously did you sort of work to avoid that. 337 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is definitely something I'm worried about, is that 338 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: this could feed into some sort of culture war talking point. 339 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 2: And you know, you're seeing the seeds of that. If 340 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 2: you search Twitter very deeply, you can find it. I 341 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: guess X, I'm calling it Twitter. It's still Twitter to me. 342 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still Twitter. 343 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 3: It's only acceptable dead naming. 344 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: Speaking of dead naming, yes, So I definitely wanted to 345 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: be as careful as possible, listen to trans people as 346 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: much as possible, you know. So that's why our Celia 347 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: was one of the first folks that I talked to, 348 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 2: and you know, she had just such an interesting understanding 349 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: of this because she, you know, had transitioned before she 350 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: came into this group, and she was able to witness 351 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: so much of the coaching that was happening. And I'm 352 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: just so grateful for someone who goes through that ringer 353 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: and still is able to articulate what happened afterwards, because 354 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 2: you know, not everybody comes around to understanding it as 355 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 2: deeply as she did. So that was my main, you 356 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 2: know thing, was I was going to listen to trans 357 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: people and then yeah, I guess just trying to sort 358 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: out what was the ideology of the group, how that 359 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: was being you know, I guess executed, and yeah, just 360 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: trying to come from this expert perspective that Yeah, yeah, 361 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: nobody can tell you what your gender is, and this 362 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: is actually an example of that. It was hard to 363 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 2: wrap my head around and I still worry about it. 364 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: I'm still worrying about my words kind of right now. 365 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was something in the documentary that like you 366 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 3: could see the filmmakers kind of like you can you 367 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 3: can see them kind of going back and forth between 368 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 3: wanting to use people getting top surgery as this kind 369 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 3: of like shock factor thing, but then also like at 370 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: the same time being like wait, hold on, like this 371 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 3: is you know, this is something that you can very 372 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 3: very easily like be a right wing transphobe and just 373 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 3: like take a clip of and put on the internet 374 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: and be like, hey, like we need to stop gender 375 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 3: clinics from being able to do this. And I don't know. 376 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 3: I think I think you've handled it pretty well, but 377 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 3: I don't know, like this is this is something that 378 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 3: is like I think like one of the important things 379 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 3: is like this cult is ran by SIS people, and 380 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: this is you know what. I think it was a 381 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 3: good decision for you to talk about it in terms 382 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: of conversion therapy, because that's a lot closer to what's 383 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 3: happening than people transitioning and you know, I mean like 384 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 3: it's I don't know, like I would say. The thing 385 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 3: that's complicated about it, right is you know you it's 386 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 3: you can't talk. It's really really it's almost impossible to 387 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: like talk to the people who are going through this 388 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 3: and get an understanding of what their sense of their 389 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 3: gender is. I mean, like I've I watched a couple 390 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 3: of the videos that they made and like, I don't know, 391 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 3: it's it's it's really difficult to like it's it's it's 392 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 3: easy to play arm tre psychologist with it, and I 393 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 3: don't want to do that. And so yeah, I think 394 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: I think you've been walking a difficult line. And yeah, 395 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 3: I keep. 396 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: My hands off that too. You know, like I am 397 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,959 Speaker 2: not going to tell any one of those folks, you know, 398 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: Gabe Ray what's going on in their brains and bodies. 399 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: I just do happen to know about the systematic sort 400 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: of coaching that they were, you know, exposed to. So, 401 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 2: you know, for in the case of Jesse Hersey, she 402 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 2: had months and months of coaching around letting go of 403 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: her entire life, her entire identity starting over, let go 404 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: of any image of what you think your twin flame 405 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: could be right, And so if you're doing that, you know, 406 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: and eventually folks do sort of acquiesque. I think it's 407 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: similar in a gender conversion coaching situation. Some people acquiesque, 408 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 2: you know, they get into a high pressure situation, they're 409 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: being told who they are, They're being told there will 410 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 2: be consequences if they, you know, go back to their 411 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: normal queer self. So so that actually does get somebody 412 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 2: to change, but in a beer based situation. So I 413 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: can speak to the coaching, but yes, I'm never going 414 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: to be a person telling anyone what their gender is 415 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 2: because we don't know. Hopefully, you know, they can break 416 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 2: free of what I think is you know, pretty manipulative 417 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: coercive practices and then they can tell us more about 418 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: who they are. 419 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean I think the other thing I'll 420 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 3: say about that is like, well, I mean, we know, 421 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: just on a societal level, that it's possible to force 422 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 3: people to live as a gender that they're not and 423 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 3: to identify themselves as that gender by systematic social pressure. 424 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 3: And we know this because this is the story of 425 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 3: like every transperson who's ever lived, right and totally you know, 426 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: and like it sucks, like it really fucking sucks, like 427 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 3: having someone force a gender on you. And I really 428 00:26:53,840 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: hope that these people, like I hope these people find 429 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: fin and who they are and you know, whatever form 430 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: that takes, that they're not being coerced into it, because like, yeah, 431 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 3: and this is something I think that was in I 432 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 3: think it was in the Netflix documentary that people were 433 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 3: talking about. This is like, you know, in terms of 434 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 3: people who could understand what this is like, Like I 435 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 3: think other trans people are probably some of the only 436 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 3: people in the world who actually do, like even sort 437 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 3: of understand what it's like to be forced to be 438 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: a gender if that you're not. And so yeah, I'm 439 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 3: hoping that this develops in a way like of solidarity 440 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 3: and not of weaponization by right wingers. 441 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think you guys have done all 442 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: you could reasonably do to avoid that, like the culture 443 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: war is going to do what the culture war does. 444 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to get into Keith Ranieri a little bit 445 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: and kind of how what went on with the Nexium cult, 446 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: because he's a friend of the pod over here a 447 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: lot about the details of what he got up to. 448 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: He's obviously probably the biggest recent cult in the US. 449 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: And like us popular culture at least, you know, there's 450 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: a couple other little bit of other competition for that title, 451 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: but not a ton. And yeah, I wanted to talk 452 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: to you a little bit about how some of how 453 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: people's awareness of that, because like, obviously, given the media environment, 454 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: all the people getting pulled in by the Twin Flames 455 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: cult were aware to some extent of cult dynamics and 456 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: probably of this story of this cult that is not unrelated. 457 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah, So there is a bit of stories colliding. 458 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: When you write about cults, there's only so many of them. 459 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: Inevitably stories start to cross over. So I was still, yeah, 460 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: covering Vnexium trial and you know, folloout sentencings when this 461 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: story came across my desk, you know, and even the 462 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 2: first person who talked to me about it, it was like, 463 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: I think it's similar, you know, I think their practices 464 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: are similar. And sure enough, I go and look at 465 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: this mind alignment process and you're right, it's it's kind 466 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: of similar to auditing, and scientology is kind of similar 467 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: to you know, what Nexium was doing. 468 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: So it's. 469 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the tools of manipulation are common across many of 470 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: these groups, and I would say, you know, not just 471 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: ex members of Twin Flames, but even potentially the leaders 472 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 2: of Twin Flames have studied other groups, including Nexium. There 473 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: is the detail in the documentary that Jeff actually made 474 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: folks in the group write an essay about why Keith R. 475 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: Nieri was a cult leader but why he was not one, 476 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: based on watching the vow in seduced. So that's just, yeah, 477 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: a world's colliding for me. But yeah, I think Nexium 478 00:29:54,840 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: has in some ways brought a certain understanding. So of 479 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: the sources I was talking to, yeah, had an understanding 480 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: of how that worked. And you know what made that wrong, 481 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: what made that coercion. Twin Flames doesn't have as many 482 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: of the aspects as nexiums. So they don't have a 483 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: blackmail program, right, there's no branding in Twin Flames universe. 484 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: And you know their diet plan was actually you know, 485 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: load up on calories. Right, So there's some various differences 486 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: that you know, maybe Jeff studied and thought he could 487 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: fly under the radar with that. I don't know. I 488 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: don't know Jeff's motivations. He has only sent me long, 489 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 2: rambling emails. He has never agreed to an interview. But yes, 490 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: there's so much commonality, including the lawsuits that came out 491 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: of this. So when I reported on this in twenty twenty, 492 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: immediately after our first story, twin Flames Universe sent a 493 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: bunch of threatening letters to all of who they suspected 494 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: was cooperating with my reporting. So this was a group 495 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: of some thirty five people. I definitely didn't interview all 496 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: of them, but they were suspected collaborators. And it basically said, 497 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: if you do not retract your story within twenty four 498 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: hours and write a public apology, we are going to 499 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: publish very damning information about you, and we might pursue 500 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 2: a lawsuit. And this letter was not signed by a lawyer, 501 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: you know. 502 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: So signed legit. 503 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, in reporting on it, which we did, and of 504 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: course nobody retracted, but sure enough, a couple months after that, 505 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: they did file a defamation suit against I want to say, 506 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 2: seven or eight members and one mom, And of course 507 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: that got thrown out. But that's the next you and 508 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: playbook is sue sue folks until they don't speak to 509 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: anyone anymore. Right, So it's a silencing tactic and it worked. 510 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: It really shook people up. I definitely wanted to give 511 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 2: people space after that. Yeah, it was definitely deja vus. 512 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 2: I guess to see that many lawsuits because there were 513 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: two separate ones both thrown out. 514 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that's like something I've had to 515 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: like coach some some younger journalists and stuff through too, 516 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: because it's a favorite tactic of a lot of terrible people, 517 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: like send out legal threats and like, this is not 518 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: legal advice. You should always consult a lawyer. But the 519 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: vast majority of threats like that that are sent out 520 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: cannot be backed up to any realistic extent. Again, don't 521 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: ever assume that always consult a lawyer about this sort 522 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 1: of thing. But like the fact that somebody sends you 523 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: a we're going to sue you or like a cease 524 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: and assist does not mean they can actually hurt you, right, 525 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: It just means like for a lot of people, that's 526 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: like a go to sort of thing. 527 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does evoke emotions. 528 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: In the Netflix, stuy, and it does mean you've got 529 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: to reach out to a lawyer, which is scary, you know. 530 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, thankfully we had vice lawyers that on that one, 531 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: but I don't know. In the Netflix documentary, Jeff actually 532 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: names me, you know, and tries to intimidate me by name. 533 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: And that was actually cut from a much longer video, 534 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: And I have to say, when it first came out 535 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: it did make me want a cuke. Now when I 536 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: see it in the series, it makes me laugh. But 537 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 2: it Yeah, you can really intimidate someone with that stuff. 538 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: Sure, I think we should probably end on kind of 539 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: talking about where things are now, because again, if you've 540 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: watched the documentary, I think the thing that was brought 541 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: up to me by a couple of people I know 542 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: who watched it was like, so, wait, they're so just 543 00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: out there doing it. 544 00:33:59,520 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 3: You know. 545 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: Used to when stuff like this gets covered, they're being 546 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: some sort of satisfying narrative arc. They've been charged, they're 547 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: in you know, prison, they're on the run. But this like, 548 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: they're just continuing to do cult stuff. And I think 549 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: part of like one of the things that is unfortunate. 550 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: It's just I'm not a law expert. Again, but just 551 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: from what I'm looked at, it's not clear to me 552 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: that they've broken a law in a way that's going 553 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: to be easy to come after them for. 554 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is the interesting thing about Twin Flames 555 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 2: universe is. It does sort of straddle this line between 556 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 2: you know, it's not nexium. They weren't clear up, they. 557 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: Haven't abducted people, Yes, exactly. 558 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 2: They haven't risen to that level. Although there are folks 559 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: who are in this group who believe they were trafficked, 560 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 2: which is an interesting perspective because they weren't able to 561 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 2: choose the person that they were having sexual contact with, 562 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: that they didn't even get to control when or how 563 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 2: that sexual will contact happened. It would take I think, 564 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: you know, a very ambitious prosecutor to take on that 565 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: kind of case. But back in twenty twenty, some of 566 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: these moms were already calling you know, the FBI and 567 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: the local Farmington Hills police. Farmington Hills has been like, 568 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: this is not our jurisdiction. If anything like, go to 569 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: the FBI. We haven't heard any particular updates from that, 570 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: you know case. Certainly, folks have said things to me 571 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: that sound a bit like fraud. You know, wire fraud 572 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 2: is a very broad concept. I don't know if that's 573 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: actually the case. I am not a lawyer, I'm not 574 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 2: a prosecutor, but definitely I think the filmmakers behind the 575 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 2: Netflix documentary in particular, think that this is up to 576 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 2: the FBI. They should be taking action, and they want 577 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: their documentary to spur that action. So yeah, we'll see 578 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: what happens. I you know, am as I said, not 579 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: an expert, not a lawyer, but certainly a lot of 580 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 2: the things that I've heard about sound very concerning and 581 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: very similar. 582 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I yeah, it's tough because, like 583 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I do. I will say I would be 584 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: shocked if there's not an active FBI investigation purely based 585 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: on how how popular the documentaries have been. Right, Like 586 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean anything will actually happen, but at this 587 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: point I would be shocked if they were not seriously 588 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: looking into it, just because it's like they're probably getting 589 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: hassled by a bunch of people. 590 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: Yes, and I mean it is a very culty thing 591 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: that they also collect everything, you know, video of everything 592 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 2: they've done. 593 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 1: There's a lot to look into. 594 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 595 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: The Yes, the hard drive that one of the folks 596 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 2: in the documentary named Keeley collected was literally called the 597 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: Holy Grail. Right nextium for Keith Ranieri, his you know, 598 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 2: damning evidence was called Studies. So I feel like this 599 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 2: is the studies hard drive yeah. 600 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: In that case, Well, we'll continue to all look into 601 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: this and excited to kind of see hopefully eventually some 602 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: sort of justice being done, although that's always a lot 603 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: to ask for out of the world. Yeah, well, Mia, 604 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: did you have anything else you wanted to get into. 605 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 3: I think that's basically everything. 606 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: Okay, And Sarah, did you have anything else you wanted 607 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: to make sure to mention? 608 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: Well, I would just like to mention that, you know, 609 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: having a belief about something like a soulmate is not 610 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 2: necessarily a bad thing. I don't want people to feel 611 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: stupid for having weird beliefs. If you open your third 612 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: eye and you know, believe your partner has been you know, 613 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 2: in your dreams, since, that's fine to me. I don't 614 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 2: want to disparage that kind of person. It's the systematic 615 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 2: coersion that you know, I'm particularly concerned about in my reporting. Yeah, 616 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: but yeah, maybe you could check out my book it's 617 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,800 Speaker 2: called Don't Call It a Cult. Yeah, about the Nexium case. 618 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: You can follow me on Twitter Sarah Burns b E 619 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 2: r MS not X I'm dead naming Twitter again. Yeah, Yeah, 620 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 2: that's about it. 621 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: All right. Well, everyone, that's been Another episode of it 622 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: could happen here Until next time, Why don't you go 623 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: happen somewhere else? 624 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 2: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 625 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 626 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 627 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 628 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly, 629 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, slash sources. 630 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.