WEBVTT - Help the Helpers 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:07.080 M hm m m. Mr Rogers tried to get us 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:11.280 to be our best self. That's a phrase that you know, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:13.440 we hear variations of it a lot now, right like 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.479 live your best life, be your best self. What we 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.200 usually mean by that now is seek pathways to your 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.440 own joy and the kind of self celebration you want 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:29.120 to experience, which I think is great and I'm a 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.800 firm believer in that self love is really radical and important. 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.879 But when we say that Mr Rogers wanted people to 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.520 be their best self, there's something about like just encouraging 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.680 people to be good, right, to be good and to 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.919 be kind to themselves and to other people that I 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:54.560 actually think is a really rare message. I don't know 0:00:54.720 --> 0:01:00.440 who is telling children or anyone be kind, you know, 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.360 and in a way that is lived out in their example, 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:12.080 and not like moralizing or pedantic or condescending. Fred Rogers 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.120 is everywhere right now, on t shirts and calendars and 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.720 coffee mugs. There's a movie and multiple books, articles and 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:24.000 major magazines and of course this podcast. And it seems 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.800 to me the reason we're seeing him everywhere is that 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.959 we believe, collectively there's something in what he taught us 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:36.800 that we need right now. But are we understanding the 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.920 right thing about him and his work? Or are we 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.039 just in love with the niceness, the nostalgia, the feel good. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.480 Not that those are bad things in and of themselves, 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.600 but are they enough? Is it enough to fall in 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.360 love with this idea that each of us is likable? 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:00.559 Is that even the right idea? Because I don't think 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:06.240 that's all there was to his message. I'm Carvil Wallace 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.080 and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about Fred Rogers 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:18.960 from High Heart Media and Fatherly in partnership with Transmitter Media. 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.040 Fred Rogers grew up during the Depression, through World War 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.760 Two and the Holocaust. He had seen how horrible people 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.680 could be to one another, and his show spoke to that. 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.280 It launched just months before Bobby Kennedy's assassination, and Fred 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.200 made a p s A in response to it, and 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.000 just a few weeks after he officially retired, he made 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.640 another p s A right after September. We've talked about 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.880 how Fred didn't want to do the announcement at all 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.680 in the face of such enormous violence and tragedy. He 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.440 said he couldn't see how it would do any good, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.240 but he did it anyway. The writer and educated or 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.880 e viewing who you remember from episode two was watching 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.120 There's this video that I've watched a lot where he 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.960 addresses us as adults. You know. He's saying, sometimes I 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:13.840 see you all on the streets. I run into you, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.120 those of you who grew up in the neighborhood, you know, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.800 And when I see you, I tell you, just like 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.920 I did when you were very small, that I'm just 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.760 so proud of you, you know, and I like you 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.639 just the way you are. A lot of people who 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.119 heard Fred's p s A took comfort in his message 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:38.320 look for the helpers, but Eve heard something else. He 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.880 is talking to you as an individual, but now as 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.400 an adult, and that's his opportunity to say something else 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.120 or to like break this character. And the thing he 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.360 chooses to say is I still see you. I'm still 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:53.400 proud of you and see the child in you. And 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.680 I think that when we talk about forgiving people and 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.520 not believing in monsters, to me, that's what much of 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.920 that amount to is knowing that everybody was somebody's child. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.760 You know, who has been hurt, or who's been afraid, 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.880 or who's been trying their best to learn, or who's 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.880 been trying to be resilient in a difficult situation. We've 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.640 talked about what it means to do what Fred did, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.920 listen carefully and speak to the children inside people. But 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.360 what are we supposed to do when the child is 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:26.719 afraid and acting out, throwing tantrums and destroying things. What 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:28.720 are we supposed to do when the child inside other 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.520 people makes them dangerous and destructive? And when that's making 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.680 us feel afraid like we want to lash out and 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.479 hurt people who are hurting us. What are we supposed 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.440 to do then? And who can show us how to 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:48.080 act in a world like this one here today? My 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.479 mom told me all the time and continues to tell 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.880 me that you know, your responsibility is to be a lightbringer, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.039 and your job is to be a door opener, not 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:04.520 a gatekeeper. And all of us have that grandma, that neighbor, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.359 that uncle, that guy on the corner store. You know, 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:10.560 I remember like riding the train with my mom and 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.960 we didn't have a car, and going down to the 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.719 train station and there was this South Asian man who 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.520 ran the convenience store in the train station, and you know, 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:21.320 whenever we went to get on the train, he would 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.360 give me like a small caramel square, you know, those 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.400 like little cubes, just like a no brand, no name, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.920 like caramel cube. And those are the small moments as 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.799 a kid that I just remember feeling like, oh, I'm somebody. 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.200 Somebody told me that I was special today. And I 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.680 think that message can come from a lot of messengers. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.760 And definitely race and class and culture and religion and 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.320 geography and all those things can make it harder here, 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.080 but it usually comes through loud and clear if the 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:57.760 person really cares about you. There are helpers everywhere, people 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.839 who really see us and are kind to us, and 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.840 there are also people who show us how to be helpers, 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.880 who model it for us. My paternal grandfather, incidentally, is 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:15.880 a white man who is a lay Presbyterian minister. He 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.680 grew up on a really small farm in the depression 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:23.440 in rural Illinois, and in so many ways reminds me 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.760 of Mr Rogers. He has a uniform like Mr Rogers. 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.640 He just wears like short sleeve button down shirts in 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.840 the same way that Mr Rodgers always wears his card agaan. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:40.479 But my grandfather has children and grandchildren that have lived 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.800 just radically different lives than him, you know, in terms 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:49.760 of like race, class, culture, interests. Paul just like everything 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.400 that you can think of, and he just is such 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:59.160 a deeply, deeply kind and caring person. My uncle married 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.800 a really some woman who didn't grow up in the 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.960 church or anything like that, and I remember she said 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:06.880 when she met my grandfather, she was like, Oh, this 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.400 is the first real Christian I've ever met, Like, this 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.000 is the first person that actually they say they're a 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:13.920 Christian and it means that they like do all this 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.800 stuff that Jesus said to do right. And he's always 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.440 just made me feel completely unconditionally loved and accepted. But 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.440 I also see him treat other people that way in 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:26.200 a way that makes it clear that it's not just 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.880 about me being his grandchild, but what he believes about 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.560 the world. And going to visit my grandparents and just 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.520 meeting random people that were staying in their house temporarily 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.600 because that's what they needed in the moment also made 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.680 a big impression on me as a kid that I 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.480 could come and meet somebody and just be told like, oh, 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.160 you know, they needed to stay here for for this 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:51.040 period of time because of X y Z. And I 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.040 think that that idea of an open home quite literal 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.600 in in both the case of my grandfather and the 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.400 case of Mr Rogers, right like, I think that's something 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.680 also that's incidental that we're in Mr Rogers's house. He's 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:08.200 welcoming us into his house. Eve's grandfather showed her one 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.800 way to be open and generous in a world that 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.720 seems hell bent on the opposite. I don't I don't 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.840 identify as a Christian um, but I think that even 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.680 though I don't identify that way or as a particularly 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:27.320 religious person, I'm nevertheless deeply moved and influenced by a 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.280 lot of Christian teachings. And one of the Biblical lines 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.280 that I think about a lot is um the idea 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.840 of the least of these Jesus says paraphrasing, but basically 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:39.559 like that which you do onto the least of these 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.000 you do unto me, And the idea that in every situation, 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.079 as a society, in a family, in a community, your 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.000 job is to find the people that are the most 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.800 vulnerable and to make sure that they're protected. And when 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.560 you do that, as a general rule of thumb, everything 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.000 else will be good. Everything else will follow. That's really 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.960 important to me, you know, after the election in twenty sixteen. 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:09.240 My kids were thirteen and eleven, and they said, they 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.040 said to me, what happened? What happened, like, explained to 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.800 me what that was? What is happening? And the only 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.720 explanation that I could come up with was like, well, look, 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:21.720 there are some people who believe that it is it 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.120 is your responsibility to care for others and that that 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:26.960 is and that is a primary thing, and that you 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:28.560 must do that. And then there are some people who 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.400 think that that is, that it's your responsibility to care 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.240 for your own and everyone else just needs to figure 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:39.040 out for themselves. And that is ultimately what appears to 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.320 have happened last night is that some people who believe 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.240 that second thing appeared to have gained more power. You know, 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.880 I was like your mother and I we know what 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.800 we believe. We believe that we must care for others, 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:51.880 like that is what we fundamentally believe. We're never not 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.040 going to believe that that is just who we are, 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.920 and you're going to have to figure out who you 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.679 are in the world. You know. I've done a fair 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.720 amount of teaching in in prisons, and the prison that 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.600 I teach in is a maximum security prison where people 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.280 are there for very long term or life sentences. And 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:13.480 one of the rules that we have is that we 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.040 don't we don't ask people like what they did or 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.959 why they're there. I know just from history that like 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.160 if not of the people that I'm dealing with in 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.800 that space are there because of the drug war, are 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:31.320 there because of poverty, are there because of unresolved trauma 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:33.720 in their own lives. And the idea that like one 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.200 out of those one hundred might just actually be a 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.320 psychopath doesn't make it worth it for me to focus 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:45.160 on that to me remote possibility, when I could be 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.040 focusing on like the human conversation that we're going to have. 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:52.400 And so to me, that's that's the idea of of 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.120 grace is just like assuming, even if you can't quite 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.840 work your way up to loving people, which is like 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.080 the Jesus standard, it's okay for us to not all 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.640 be Jesus at least understanding that people are human beings 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:11.320 and not not monsters. You've heard me ask a lot 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:13.760 of people how I like you. Just the way you 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.720 are applies to those who hurt us, who hurt others, 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.320 who are hurting whole groups of people and tearing apart 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.440 families and communities and institutions that do good in the world. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.880 Would Fred Rogers like them just the way they are? 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.679 Eaves says, that's the wrong question. We spent a lot 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.319 of time asking the question like what about the bad people, 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.520 like are we adequately punishing the bad people, which usually 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:43.960 is a distraction from making sure that the person who's 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:48.480 actually been hurt is okay. And we've set up a 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.079 society where we tend to be really obsessed with punishing 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.680 people rather than actually caring for the people that have 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.640 been harmed. And that is a disregard that shows a 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.120 disregard for the idea of care for the least of these. 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.280 And if you believe that most of those bad things 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:09.800 themselves come from un dealt with harm, than the best 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:14.480 thing that we can do is deal with the harm. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:19.240 In Mark seven, Jesus says the poor you will always 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.160 have with you, and you can help them whenever you want, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:27.440 but you will not always have me. The idea is 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.520 that one day Jesus would leave his followers. Like all things, 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.000 he was saying, his presence is impermanent. The only permanent 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.920 thing is that people will still need help, and we 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.480 must continue to help those who need it. Notice he 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.440 doesn't say I'm gonna be gone, so I'm gonna need 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.600 you to keep on crushing all the bad guys and 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.480 making sure they learn their lessons. Like Eves said, his 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.160 focus is not unfixing the bad ones, but on helping 0:12:55.440 --> 0:13:04.400 the needy ones. But that's hard. Sometimes. Sometimes I feel 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.640 like I have to keep an eye on what I'm 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.360 afraid of or what can hurt me. I have to 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.880 make sure it's locked away or properly defended against. The 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.840 things I'm afraid of are so loud and bright and 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.559 distracting that it's hard to turn my attention away from them, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:23.640 even for a moment, hard to give up on the 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.320 idea that my job is to make sure the bad 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.920 people suffer. It's hard to do the quieter and slower 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.560 and maybe more vulnerable work of tending to the people 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.200 who have been wounded. I often feel too scared and 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.600 angry and hurt to do that. I feel like I 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:50.280 have too many people to protect. And maybe that's why 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.480 Fred Rogers was so focused on finding a way to 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.760 talk about our feelings, Because maybe I can't really help 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.680 people until I spend a lot of time sitting with 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:30.160 my own hurt more in a minute. One of the 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.040 things that Fred Todd is that in a child, every 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:40.320 behavior is a way the child communicates an underlying need. 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.320 If we were to apply that not just to children, 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.880 but to grown ups, we may find a behavior objectionable, 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.920 or we may find something that someone says objectionable. We 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.680 may find another person's opinion objectionable. But if we look 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:03.480 deeper and see what is the human need behind that, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.720 it doesn't mean we have to agree with their opinions 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.480 and actions and words, but it does mean that we 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:14.520 should and can have empathy and have a connection with 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:19.480 the underlying human need. This is John Leah Lee. He 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.440 is a senior lecturer in Early childhood Education at Harvard. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:26.120 He spent much of his professional career studying Fred's work. 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.520 He was co director of the Fred Rogers Center at 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.240 Saint Vincent's College, and one of the courses he teaches 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.280 at Harvard is about simple Interactions, a way of working 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.800 with kids that's based in part on the work of 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.520 Fred Rogers. Jen Lay also knows something about the dark 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.040 side of human behavior. He was born in Shanghai at 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.920 the tail end of the Chinese Cultural Revolution in the 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.760 late sixties and early seventies, the Chinese states sent millions 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.760 of people who they decided were bad neighbors in their 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:59.040 eyes into forced labor and exile, and murdered countless more. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.320 Unlay's parents were sent to do manual work and rule China. 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.760 He was often separated from one or both of them. 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.880 This was not a culture of I like you just 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.440 the way you are. Gen Lay moved to America at 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.760 sixteen and discovered Mr. Rogers neighborhood in college where he 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:22.080 was studying child development. Fred's message of love and acceptance 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.640 came as a revelation and became gen Lay's model for 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:30.400 how to communicate with both children and adults. He told 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.480 me that Fred became a personal role model too, and 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.720 before we get into it, you should probably take a 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.320 deep breath and relax, because generally has a very thoughtful 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:44.800 Fred rogers like demeanor. I initially came to make available 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:51.880 educational opportunities for all children, but over time I think 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:57.320 it becomes more and more about how we can find 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.480 people all around the world who were doing that, or 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.800 the kind of people that Fred would call heroes, um 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.560 their ordinary heroes. I came into the field very much 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:15.240 want to be a helper, and twenty years later I 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.800 realized that perhaps the best thing I could do is 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.800 to find these helpers that are already out there and 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:29.800 do my best to support them. He exactly helping the helpers. 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:35.680 I think the most important lesson that I took from 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:43.600 Fred was this idea that if you looked carefully around you, 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.480 no matter where you are, if you looked carefully, you 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:53.600 will find that there are people that are helping one another. 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:59.840 The kindness and trust and respect that are example THI 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:07.919 by Fred's work is visible in real human communities. Not 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:13.119 everyone talks just like Mr Rogers or anything, but the 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.199 way they listen to children, the way they are able 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:22.520 to pay attention to not just what the child acts 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:28.400 out on the surface, but what do these behaviors tell 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.199 us about the inner needs of the child or the 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.760 young person. You know. I want to ask you a 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:43.280 little bit about today's context, um, because I when I 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:47.959 look around, I see a lot of fear and anger 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:54.120 and frustration, and and a feeling that things are rapidly 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.400 getting worse in a in a myriad of ways, and 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.000 people feeling helpless and hopeless. I want under if you 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.080 can imagine what kind of show he would make today. 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.440 Do you think he would continue along the same path 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.439 or would he find that he would have to do 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:17.040 something different. That's such a good question, and I can't 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:23.520 begin to imagine that I know what he would do. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:30.960 But I think the underlying topic that Fred was so 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:38.720 interested in perhaps centers around this idea of empathy. Fred's 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:45.119 show is about confronting struggles and conflicts rather than evading them. 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:51.200 People of different ideas, different values, trying to work out 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:56.359 their differences and still operate on an assumption of trust 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.480 and respect for one another. And I think fred work 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:06.520 very strongly conveyed that a community is a place where 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.640 not everyone has to look the same, not everyone even 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.960 have to have the same interests or choose to live 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.959 the same way. Um like community is simply a place 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:21.359 where very diverse people get to live together, to listen 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.240 to one another and work through the differences that they have. 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:41.760 I think in a fearful world, we have a tendency 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:49.160 to accentuate every aspect that is different between person one 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.919 and person two. And as much as Fred wanted to 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:59.159 convey the message that all of us are different and 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:05.080 unique and special, Fred's underlying message, though, is we are 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:11.639 much more the same than we're different, and that paradoxically, 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:17.800 by pointing out the uniqueness of each individual, we actually 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:23.600 come to understand our common humanity. And that to me 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:31.240 is perhaps the spiritual root of empathy. To be able 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:37.199 to see the full humanity of the person that we 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:42.440 might fear. Mm hm, you know that is such a 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:50.880 weighty and heavy concept in this time. Um. We live 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.399 in a world in which there are systemic abuses of people, 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.080 and people feel the need to defend themselves, not just 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:03.959 against individuals, against systems, and and I think a lot 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.880 of times in those cases, people feel like there's there's 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:12.280 a there's a threat to their survival that comes with 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:18.080 that empathy that in order to protect themselves and their 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:22.200 families and who they love, they can't allow themselves that empathy. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:28.560 You know, if you are a targeted group in a genocide, 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.560 is their use for you in finding empathy for the 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:37.040 person on the other side of the friends. Fred often 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:43.280 talked about the lesson the most important lesson that he 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:50.440 took from he's theology professor in Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, which 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:53.600 he went to ask this professor one time what this 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:58.399 particularly him means because they him said something about, you know, 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:03.520 the one thing, the one small thing that made evil fall. 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.119 And so he went to ask the professor, you know 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.240 what is this one small thing? And the answer was, 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:17.960 the one thing that evil cannot stand is forgiveness. And 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:24.240 I think as I read about the error in which 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:30.440 my parents and grandparents lived through, I think of a story. 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:34.679 There was an older gentleman that was very close to 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:39.800 my family. He was from West Virginia and became a minister, 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:46.919 and he and his wife and son were missionaries in China. 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.720 And after the World War two broke out, they were 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.080 taken by the Japanese and put inside a fairly bruto 0:23:54.760 --> 0:24:01.320 concentration camp. And one of the command ds of the 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:07.959 camp we're humane to the American prisoners, and the minister, 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:15.159 his name is Joe. Years later, he sat down in 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:19.280 a Japanese house across the table from the commander of 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:23.200 the concentration camp, and the two of them shared the tea, 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.520 a cup of tea, and and I just think of 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:35.400 these things. They're almost illogical, but they are a reflection 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:41.800 of the fundamental trust that human beings, as much as 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:46.080 they're capable of evil and hatred, and and as much 0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:49.960 as all of us have our fears and defensiveness that 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:54.439 in the end, I think when Fred tells us that 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:58.840 we are special, he meant that there's something deep down 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.560 inside each of us, not just some of us, but 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:07.359 each of us, without which humanity cannot survive. In his 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:15.359 public service announcements following September, he invoked, I think the 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:19.520 Jewish saying that essentially means we are called to be 0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:27.720 repairers of creation, and we can understand that in more 0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:33.159 broadly outside the religious context, is somehow that each of 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:39.679 us are called to be repairers of creation? And what 0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:52.159 does repairing mean? Each of us is called to be 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:57.280 a repairer of creation? But how do we do that? 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:01.960 I think for everyone, though the question is the same, 0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:06.000 the answer can be different. Not all of us can 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.240 sit down to tea with someone who represents the violent 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.280 forces of the state. The man from West Virginia that 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:15.919 John Lay talked about could, but many of us cannot 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:20.000 and maybe should not. And there's good reason for that. 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:23.640 If someone breaks into your home and harms your family 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:26.199 or loved ones in some violent way, and then I 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:28.639 decide to sit down with them the next day for 0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:33.320 a pleasant tea under the guise of forgiveness and radical empathy. 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:36.399 That may be a dramatic, heroic act for me, but 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:41.400 it might be incredibly disrespectful and harmful to you. We're 0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:44.200 told all the time that the ultimate act of love 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:46.800 is to forgive the people who have hurt you, and 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:51.240 that anything less is a shortcoming, maybe an understandable one, 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:57.720 but a shortcoming nonetheless something to get over. But who 0:26:57.760 --> 0:27:02.480 benefits most from the quick and incessant march towards forgiveness? 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:06.040 Isn't it often those who commit the heinous act to 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:11.080 begin with? Don't they want, deeply want for their victims 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:15.840 to hug them and declare that it's all good. Wouldn't you? 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:23.520 Have you ever harmed someone? Have you ever participated in 0:27:23.960 --> 0:27:28.560 or benefited from someone's harm? Wouldn't you want them to 0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:34.120 forgive you? The idea of forgiving one's enemies loving one's 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:37.160 enemies is a beautiful one, and maybe even an ideal one, 0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:41.240 But it's also a complicated one. Sometimes an act of 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:44.520 love and caring toward an oppressor is an act of 0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:49.760 harm toward the oppressed, or toward ourselves. TV writer Megan Amram, 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:52.560 a brilliant person in her own right, put this idea 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:56.320 very succinctly on Twitter quote you can't be nice to 0:27:56.400 --> 0:28:00.640 everyone because being nice to certain people is inherently cruel 0:28:01.119 --> 0:28:05.639 to others. The viewing is right that after a point, 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:08.600 it's not helpful to focus on what to do about 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:12.280 the bad people. That's why I'm grateful that there are 0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:16.480