WEBVTT - Announcing Season Three & Ed Ruscha at The MoMA 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:01.800 Now did you have any lunch? 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:02.480 I have eaten? 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:03.400 What did you have? 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:04.320 Had? 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.560 Some passion fruit? Is that on the menu at the moment? 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.360 Not passion fruit? That's worry. 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:16.680 Yeah, I saw you like very nice. 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.480 He doesn't know a red pepper from the passion Better 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:32.960 get another m hm. A beautiful autumnal day. The sun 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.680 is out, that's slightly crisp in the air, and the 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:37.040 leaves are falling. 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:39.920 The river is high, and the living is easy. So 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.159 I'm sitting here with Zad Rogers and William Lensky, who 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.519 produced the podcast, through these table four and we're just 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:51.000 so excited to announce season three with an amazing lineup 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:56.280 of new guests, including Guy Ritchie s Devlin, Chad Apatow, 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:01.480 Wes Anderson, Ray Fines, and many many more. Until then, though, 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:03.560 we don't want to leave you, so we're going to 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.279 be sharing some of our favorite episodes of the past 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:12.959 two seasons, beginning with edvar Sha. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:19.959 It's very busy as ever in the River Cafe, but 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.000 today there's a special date because of the wedding going 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.080 on downstairs. So if you hear some background noise, that's 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:29.040 what it's much much more importantly the week. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:30.360 My week I was in New York. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.520 I went because Edvarsha has a retrospective, which I would 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.040 say to anybody, including you, because you're going to run, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.640 don't walk. It's a spectacular show. It's a retrospective of 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.800 his work over the last I guess maybe fifty years, 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.880 and it was very, very moving. I took Austin Butler, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.680 who also was on a podcast with us, and Austin 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:53.960 had met Ed because we were in LA at the 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.000 same time in July, and I took Austin to ed 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.320 studio when I went, and they were kind of two 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:01.160 peers in the park. 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.160 But for our listeners, this is the same whose podcast 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.920 can be found on the table for podcast series. And 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.440 also actually I remember being with you in LA maybe 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.640 this time last year recording it. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:13.079 And it was a dog. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.080 We were in the Gozing Gallery in l A and 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.680 he brought his stray dog and he just he just 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:19.239 looked like he just came out of the desert. He 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.000 was this sort of tall, dusty lean person. But Ed 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.639 is famous in the podcast series. He's the only person 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.480 that read his own recipe, which was what it was. 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:46.800 I'm sitting here in LA with Dexter and Edwards Sha Edwards. 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.760 Sha is the artist and Dexter is the dog, and 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:51.400 I hope we're going to hear from them both in 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:52.480 the next half hour. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:56.880 Did you bring the cactus armor? 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:05.360 Yeah, there's a small work of art by my bed 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.839 that I say hello to every morning and say good 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.480 night to every night. I think of the day it 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.480 arrived in the River Cafe from Los Angeles, wrapped in 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.560 layers of bubble wrap. I knew then unwrapping it that 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.280 this was one I would never let out of my sight. 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.160 The artist was ed Rushee, and the word in bright 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.640 red says yum. I've known ed Richet's work since the 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.520 early seventies. I followed admired his work through his career, 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.200 and in twenty nineteen. In twenty twenty he shows at 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.320 the National Gallery and Tate Modern And it was then 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.840 that we got to know each other well. Dinners at 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.440 the River Cafe, breakfast at Clarages, and we became friends. 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.600 First I fell in love with the art, and. 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.960 Then I fell in love with the artist. Would you 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:56.240 like to read a recipe? 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.360 Shall I read your recipe? 0:03:58.600 --> 0:03:59.760 But I'd like to hear yours. 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.840 You'll be the first person to read a recipe that 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:05.360 is not a river cafe recipe, and I think that's good. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:10.200 What is that cactus omelet which I make occasionally? You 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:15.000 have to get nopolytos little cactus pads that they slice 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:20.160 into little bits, and so says utensils omelet pan are 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.159 similar type pan with rounded bottom, mixing bowl, wire, whisk 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.880 or fork. Instructions. Break two eggs in bowls slightly under 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:33.320 mix with whisk or fork. Heat butter in pan until 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:37.160 it bubbles and begins to turn brown. Add the eggs 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.000 and let them sit in the pan until the bottom 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:44.080 begins to harden. As soon as this sets, but while 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:48.600 the top is still moist, add salt and pepper, cottage cheese, 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:53.919 sprinkle celery on top, followed by the nopoulitos. Let the 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.360 omelet set for about one minute over a low fire 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.520 roll omelet out of pan and onto plate. 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.119 Where does this recipe come from? 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:10.039 I sort of made it up. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.680 Yeah, And I always liked the taste of They're kind 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:20.880 of slimy of cactus, you know, nopolitos and uh, but 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.560 they have a flavor all their own, and I've always 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:25.040 liked them. 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.839 Yeah, because you know, where we live, we don't get 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:29.160 cactus cacti. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:31.760 So was it when you came out here to l 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:32.560 you had it? 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:32.960 Yeah? 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:34.080 Did you go in the desert? 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.000 Uh? Well, Los Angeles. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:38.800 I've talked to artists. 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:43.800 I've interviewed Damian and Tracy, but I haven't had an 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.800 artist or painted about We talk about food and have 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.000 food in their life and food in there are But 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.200 you actually painted with food. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.400 You use egg yolk and you used didn't you. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.240 Was that a certain period that you started painting with 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.640 with actually food? 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:05.680 I was maybe I was frustrated with art materials or 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:10.719 it felt like I had reached a apex or a 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:15.160 stopping off point. And then I thought about why you 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.080 can make marks on paper or on canvas with any 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:20.080 number of things. 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:21.720 Why does it have to be pigments? 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:27.120 And so then I started using these things like axle, grease. 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:28.120 And caviar, and. 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:34.240 Well, it's of course egg, and it's pretty stable and 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:41.080 it hardens and it's proven to be pretty pretty stable 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:41.680 over the years. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.480 Also, the paintings that you did with caviar still ye, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:45.920 still still there. 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.560 They've yellowed a little bit, but yeah, that's what do 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:56.360 we call that entropy or something? But you don't do anymore, No, 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.440 I haven't done that for a while, But don't give 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:00.000 me any idea. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:05.120 I think I'm going to give you an idea. When 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.240 I came to a studio, you have an orchard in 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.600 the bat and I was wondering, you know, what what 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:14.680 does that mean to you to have fruit growing in 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:16.239 behind your studio. 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:17.960 Well, fortunately I. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.040 Got this building that had a large backyard I had 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:27.320 no real use for, so I sort of divided the 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.080 backyard in half and thought, well, I'll just put an 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.600 orchard in here. And I've always wanted to grow citrus 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:39.360 and other things too, figs, pomegranates, cherries, and then I've 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.600 got some raised beds there that that I grow. I 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:48.720 was growing the world's hottest pepper the boot you Lochia. 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:54.360 It's like an Indian called ghost pepper. It measures out 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.000 to be the hottest pepper in the world. 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.120 Well, I mean, how do you eat it? That's a 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:03.520 nobody ever has the answer to that. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.920 Make it that's too powerful, I guess so, and make 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.400 it so fine, grind it so fine. And I think 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.160 there are people that are still working on it to 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:13.800 get the. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.160 Get the Blue Ribbon for the hottest pepper. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:24.160 That so that it judges that competition. But you cook 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:24.840 a lot, don't you. 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.200 That recipe for an omelet is a really interesting recipe 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:29.160 because it's using. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.239 An ingredient that is so local. 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.480 You know, you go into great depth to tell how 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.080 you fry the eggs, you season it, the heat of 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:37.440 the pan. 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:39.360 That's a chef's recipe. 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.360 Well it's sort of hit and miss, you know, And 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.240 so that's fine. Since I'm usually cooking for myself, it 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.880 doesn't matter. But only other thing I really cook is chili, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.760 and I like. I like to make chili. I make 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:58.640 it without onions, without beans, and without tomatoes. That's fun 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.440 to make, and that takes a few hours to do that, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:02.480 but it's worth it. 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.520 When you're painting, how do you eat and paint generally? 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:08.440 And I don't even eat lunch. 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.120 I mean I will maybe have a banana or a 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.360 piece of fruit, and that's my lunch. I don't eat 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.760 three meals a day like I used to. But I 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:24.240 know it's in our artistic tradition. It's always been a 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:29.880 ceremony with artists to stop working at eleven forty five. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:36.040 And sit down. And I don't drink wine. 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.400 Yeah, so and then you know, it's also a tradition 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:40.800 to have wine with lunch. 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.400 But in New York in the kind of sixties seventies, 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.960 wasn't there the whole thing where artists would be in 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:49.800 their studios all day, very solitary, and then go to 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.040 Max's or to you know, to the culture of kind 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.679 of being alone and then going out every night. And 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.000 were you ever part of that culture or was it. 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.960 Lle Well, yeah, it's the pnemonium of crowds of people 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.600 in a place like Maxis, Kansas City or any of 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:07.400 those kind of places, and. 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:09.760 It was almost ceremonial. 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:14.560 You know, you'd go and have great fun and drink 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.480 and uh, that was part of life. 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:18.640 I guess you live in New York? 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:20.520 Did You never did live in New York. 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:20.679 No. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.640 It was always too complicated or too expensive. 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:25.040 For me to live there. 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.160 And uh, just the idea of trying to take a 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.720 two by four across town was such an issue that 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.200 made California impossibly convenient. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:42.000 Yeah, we saw Frank Gary yesterday and we talked about 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.479 the camaraderie between for him many more artists and architects. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.640 You just loved the feeling of the la kind of 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.080 artists being together here. 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:52.720 Was that part of your world as well. 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:54.360 Oh yeah, yeah. 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.720 Did he tell you that his favorite restaurant was the 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:57.800 Pacific Dining Room. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.440 Yes, he did, yeah, and they closed it, I think, and. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.160 He loved that place. Did you ever go there? 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.160 Oh yeah, I went there with him too, and. 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:06.880 Mister Chow. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.240 Chow and yeah, oh yeah, he's a great man. 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.240 I went there one time and I with a friend 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.760 and he said, can I bring a friend along? And 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.080 I said yeah, who is it? And he said Groucho 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:29.200 Marx No. And so we met at chows here and 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.080 Groucho comes in and we all sit down and have 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:36.319 a good time. But then the food comes and Graucho 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:41.200 has his food sent in from Nate and Al's delicatessen. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.640 He didn't even have the He said, I've heard about 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.400 this place. I've heard about this place, And so he 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:53.920 dined at Chow's restaurant without having its food. 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.120 That I've heard of people, you know, of course, people 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.320 bring their own wine at the River CAF. 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.000 People like to bring their own wine. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.080 And once somebody bought their own truffle. They've been to 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:05.960 Italy and they brought a white truffle and asked us 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.400 if we would grade it for them over their pasta. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.560 But I never actually have heard of anybody actually ordering 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.960 their own food. But I suppose if you're grudging in Marx. 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.080 Yeah, did you go to chaws a lot? Who would 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:19.760 go there with you? Oh? 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:21.120 Lots of different people. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.520 I mean used to go there with Tim Leary and 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:28.079 his wife and they were regulars there for a good while. 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.560 And it's so good and so traditional. I mean they 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.400 opened I think nineteen seventy five or something like that, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:41.400 and they established a menu that they really didn't vary 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.000 from in London. 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.120 They used to have a kind of cart that you 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.640 could actually make the noodles. 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.720 Yeah. Yeah, they do that here too. 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:51.120 Yeah, we should all. 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.040 Okay, are you going out much? Are you trying to 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:54.720 stay quiet? 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.240 I'm happy to you know. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.560 I love loud Hollywood parties, but I don't miss them 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:01.600 one iota. 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:05.840 It's been there and done that. Why did you go 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:06.560 to the desert? 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:08.000 Yeah? I go to the desert. 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:09.880 What do you eat there? You hunt? 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.200 I used to do that, but I don't do that anymore. 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.520 And I have a lot of quail out there. And 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:23.760 oh it's out north of it's east of Big Bear Lake. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.120 It's not the kind of desert that is like palm 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:31.880 springs with palm trees. No palm trees up there, they 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.839 have Joshua trees. If you know what those crazy things 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:35.240 look like. 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:36.360 Beautiful. 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:42.840 They're very spiky, spiky, and they look They got called 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:48.319 Joshua trees because the pioneers thought they looked like silhouettes 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.920 of biblical figures, so they call them Joshua trees. And 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:59.000 that grows out there. They're almost endangered because of the 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.839 global warming. But then I get pinion pines there and 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:08.320 I harvest some of the nuts. If you've got time 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.440 to do that that well, just get the pine cones 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.560 off the trees and very carefully take all the little 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:20.280 seeds out of it, but usually the squirrels get them 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.960 before you do. In order to get a little handful 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:28.360 of pine nuts, it takes you about an hour, and 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.160 then you have to get the sap off your hands, 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.120 wash your hands in gasoline. I don't know, but they're 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:41.080 extremely delicious. Yeah, they're far more delicious than the ones 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:42.720 you actually buy in the market. 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.800 Where you've kind of been through hell in this country 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.200 with our previous president and the and everything. And I 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.560 have a beautiful poster that you sent me, which is 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:04.560 a treasure. 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:05.920 That was enough. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:07.000 Oh enough? 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.040 Oh can you tell me the story of enough. 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.040 I don't know where that came from. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.160 It's just well, Norman Lear asked me if I would 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.680 do something, and so that was just some incentive to 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:24.280 make some statement about the condition of America and you 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:29.760 know where people sit on the subject, and so expressing 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.360 myself in that way in a poster was fun to do. 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:33.480 You know. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.520 It was like, enough of this kind of politics. We've 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.520 got to move on from this to something better, and 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.080 luckily it moved that way. 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.320 Yeah, maybe it'd be nice to talk about from the beginning. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.240 Tell me about where you grew up. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.600 I was born in Omaha, Nebraska, very center of the 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.680 United States, and then we moved to Oklahoma when I 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.800 was like five years old. So then I grew up 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.800 from there, and it was kind of a cultural wasteland 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.120 in a lot of ways. Food especially, I mean, there 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.040 was no such thing as an artichoke or an avocado, 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:14.960 barely no such thing as sushi. There is there now, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:20.440 of course, because it's multi dimensional, but I remember growing 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.920 up there and having these kind of foods, Like about 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:29.240 their early nineteen fifties is when pizza came to fashion. 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:31.960 And we didn't call it just pizza. We call it 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:36.360 pizza pie, pizza pie, pizza pieza, like. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:37.240 A big pizza. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.480 Yeah, because you originally came from Chicago or. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:42.080 State New York, State New. 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.680 And we had real southern Italian foods. 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.200 I thought Italian food was meatples and spaghetti and eggplant 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.080 parmesana and pizza pie until I went to Italy thirty 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:53.680 years later. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:54.400 Yeah. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.200 But go back to the pizza pie. When did that come? 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.560 Well, that started coming when around the time I was 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.640 in high school and it became a popular go to 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.239 type of food, kind of novel and unique. And there 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:12.080 were half a dozen places in Oklahoma City that actually 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.639 served pizza pie, and one place was called Sussy's. 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.760 That was the place you'd always go to. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.760 I did how who would cook in your house? Was 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:23.320 it your mother? 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.480 Yeah? Did you mom cooked? No? 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.640 Father didn't really cook so much. But Mom tossed everything 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.520 together and you know, it was a really it was 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.879 all meat and potatoes. I like her pies particularly, and 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.960 she made a cherry pie that I always liked. Also, 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:46.240 she made rhubarb pie, which was another thing, and so 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:47.399 that was big. 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.240 Do you think the cherries were fresh or did she 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:51.480 get them from the cans. 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.040 She'd get them from a can, or sometimes when they 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.600 were there, she would get them fresh. And the effort 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.840 was not so much into absolutely fresh food back then. No, 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.760 canned food was very big and exciting. Yeah, and then 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:10.400 came frozen food after that, and there's you know, there's 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.600 a big debate over those nutritional value of those foods. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.000 Did your mom work? So she would work all day 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:17.760 and then come home. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.159 She was a housekeeper and prepared food for us, and 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:25.800 and no, she didn't have a job. And so I 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.000 grew up in the Bible Belt there and we were Catholics, 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:35.760 so we were called mackerel snappers is what people would 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.399 call us, meaning you don't eat meat on Friday, you 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.520 eat fish on Friday. So mackerel snappers. But the kind 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.040 of food that they served there, the only international food 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:53.119 was called Chinese food. And every Chinese restaurant would always 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.880 say on the outside of the building Chinese and American food. 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.160 To alleviate the fear of looking into Chinese restaurants. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.280 And so you could get Chinese, Yes, you could get 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.720 chop suey things like that, and then you could also 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:08.520 get a hamburger. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.040 So they were gonna offer you. 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:15.320 Chinese food, but also just in case, please come anyway 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:16.320 because we can make. 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:17.680 A hamburger for you. Familiar. 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.600 Yeah, but did you go to restaurants? I mean, would 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.080 your parents take you out for a. 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:22.640 Meal and a time. 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.000 Occasionally we'd go to barbecue and that was popular. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:26.200 Then. 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.679 The one food that was really hit it big was 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:36.120 okra fried okra, and they grow it, Yeah, they grow 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.200 it in a big way there, and so there's lots 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.040 of corn that you're giving almost every day. 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:43.959 Yeah. 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.920 Also during the war, we had a victory garden. It 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:51.320 was sort of pick yourself up by your booststraps, by 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.520 growing your own food and participating in the war effort 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.560 World War two. So it was an extension of that 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.359 sort of went to your dinner table and other people 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.680 would save metal and that sort of thing to recycle 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:10.360 into the war effort. 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:16.320 And so victory garden it was a very popular thing then. 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.040 I wasn't there. 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:25.880 Just we'd grow tomatoes and corn and celery and various vegetables, 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.679 and that was kind of a unified attitude at the 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:34.000 time to have victory gardens in your backyard. I had 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.840 a paper route in Oklahoma and I'd deliver my papers 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.000 at like four in the morning and then come back 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.080 and drink almost a half a gallon of milk and 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.600 then oh, about twelve fourteen something like that. 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.639 Yeah, you said that, You said once said that you 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:52.920 thought that Oklahoma was like a black and white movie? 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.000 Do you think that? Do you think back on those days? 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.119 I still do when I think back on it, But 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.200 as I go back there occasionally I see that it's 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.840 more progressive than I allow. 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.520 My mind to make it be. Yeah, so you know, 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:09.480 it's caught up with the rest of the world. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:11.080 What's happened to your house there? 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.760 Do you still happen still stands? Yeah? 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:15.720 When was the first time you went to Europe? 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.760 About nineteen sixty one and I went there with my 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:26.800 mother and brother and we we bought a little Citron 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:32.200 two CV automobile in Paris and drove it around Europe 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:34.120 and then came. 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:35.120 To your mother's first time. 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.480 Yeah, it was her first time too. So what was 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:38.960 that like? 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:40.560 What was it like? Food wise? 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.280 Well, food wise, well, we we were kind of on 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:53.119 a budget, so there wasn't nothing particularly fancy, but just 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.879 the idea of having, you know, stumbling onto wild strawberry, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:02.560 which I'd never had before those tiny little wild strawberries 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.240 was great. That was in France. We drove all over 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.680 Europe and for about four or five months, four or 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:15.159 five months, yeah, yeah, we went as far south. We 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:23.080