1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: name is Matt, my name is Noman. They called me Ben. 6 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: We're joined as always with our superproduced Paul mission controlled decond. 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 8 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Now, folks, 9 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: in the interest of full disclosure, we all three of us, 10 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: we three conspiracy realists right now, have a soundtrack in 11 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: our heads from a television show. And Matt, you were 12 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: doing a lovely rendition of this right before we went 13 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: to air, and I hereby refused to do it because 14 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: boo boo boo boboo. Sorry, I'm done. It's pretty close, right, Yeah, 15 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: that's good. Well, that's the show you're talking about, In 16 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: Search of the first time I ever heard it was 17 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: in a Tenacious D song about Sasquatch, and they say 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: in Search of Sasquatch. That was a kick ass in 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: Search of with Leonard Nimoy kicking out the jams. I 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: didn't know at the time that that was a show. 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: I just thought it was just like, this is a 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: really awesome in search of, like searching for, you know, 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: stream of consciousness. Yeah, and then what's Leonard Nimoy got 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: to do with anything? Like you Today's You Guys are Weird? Yeah? Uh? 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: In Search Of is a television program that ran. It's 26 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of a similar genre to things that came 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: later that that you might recognize, like what was the one, 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: Oh the guy who plays Walter on Fringe, Um, he did, 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: he did a series where he's investigating stuff. It's it's 30 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: got like this unsolved mystery in history channel format has 31 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: been tried and true. You know that. Now there's what's 32 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: it called with with William Shatner following in Leonard's footsteps 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: that was called The Unexplained with as Explained? And then 34 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: Riiker did one? Uh who is a real person as 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: a real name that is not space affiliated anyway? Uh, 36 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: We're we like you love mysteries, folks, and one of 37 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: the most surprising things for any enthusiast of mysteries is 38 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: how many remain unsolved, and they come up cyclically sometimes. Right, 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: there's some big mysteries that seem to hit the national 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: consciousness at regular intervals, right, there will always be a 41 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: think piece about JFK Right or nine to eleven or 42 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: the Titanic, etcetera, etcetera, Area fifty one and so on. 43 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: Today's episode is about a mystery that remains unsolved. In 44 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: this it's unsolved. You may it's you may have heard 45 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: of it, quite possibly, but it's one that was sadly 46 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: mischaracterized pretty often in its time, and now as we 47 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: record today, it's become the subject of numerous documentaries. It's 48 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: inspired works of art. There's an off Broadway play that 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: was made about this. There's rock songs, you know. Leonard 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: Nimoy put it on in search of So that's kind 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: of a gold standard. It's twenty twenty three. Yes, we're 52 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: recording and the world is still asking what happened to 53 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: Michael Rockefeller. Yeah, one of those Rockefellers, the Rockefeller Rockefellers. 54 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: Here are the facts, yeah, not those off brand Rockefellers. 55 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: Not we have Rockefellers at home. Rockefeller ones the center 56 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: is named after, Yes, yeah, and there are no records here. 57 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Re Re is not a part of this episode worth it, 58 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: And there there's also you know, you have. This is 59 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: one of the things where if you are living in 60 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: the United States or you spend any time in that country, 61 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: you have encountered the work of the Rockefellers in some 62 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: degree and likely across generations. Despite how it may be 63 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: portrayed on paper, the US does very much have an aristocracy, 64 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: and the Rockefellers, I would argue, are members of that aristocracy, 65 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily make them bad. But it's like, you 66 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: need to know. Now, our subject for today, Michael, Let's 67 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: learn a little bit about him. Michael Clark Rockefeller. Yeah, 68 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: he was born May eighteenth, nineteen thirty eight. His father 69 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: was Nelson Rockefeller. This man is very interesting and honestly, 70 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: gotta say everybody came into this episode a little biased. 71 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: I would say anti Rockefeller a little bit, just because 72 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's easy target for like, there's probably something 73 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: bad going on there because there's all the fat cattle money, 74 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, but I learned a lot about his 75 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: father and Nelson Rockefeller, and I would recommend you everyone 76 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: out there just take a look at Nelson Rockefeller. The 77 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: he's described as a progressive, liberal Republican, really interesting stuff. 78 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: We maybe when that was a thing. Yeah, maybe we 79 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: could all learn a little something about that. He also 80 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: served as VP under Gerald Ford as vice president, and hey, 81 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: guess who the Secretary of State was during that time, guys, 82 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: Leonard Nimoy Henry Kissinger. It was Henry Kissinger. Okay, that 83 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: would have been my second guess. Yeah, I would I 84 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: would have preferred a Nimoy led State Department, but I 85 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: wasn't on good enough terms for us to talk that out. 86 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: You know, God Bock is just so calm and collected 87 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: and diplomatic. I mean, he seems like he'd be great 88 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: in government. I don't know whether the State Department of 89 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: that time would have vibed with Vulcan philosophy, you know, 90 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: that needs of the many kind of stuff that sounds 91 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot like communism. Uh right. I feel like data 92 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: would have been a better choice. Or that's probably what's 93 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: going to happen in the next couple of you know. Yeah, 94 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: present way, and just as we do every time that 95 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: he comes up, let's give a real quick check. We 96 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: might have to build a sound cue for this at 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: some point. Let's give a real quick check and confirm, 98 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: drum roll please, hinz Alfred Kissinger is still alive and 99 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: His next birthday is May twenty seventh, right, which is 100 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: is what birthday? It's gonna be a big one, man, 101 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: he is going to be one years old. Wow, what 102 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: is that called? A septagenarian? Centenarian? Centenarian? I'm good at math. 103 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: I mean those are fun words to whip out, right. 104 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the thing about being a centenarian is 105 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: by the time you get there, do you really brag 106 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: about it? Or do you just want, you know, like 107 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: juice and a nap. You know, I'm thirty nine and 108 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: I want juice and a nap, right now? I mean 109 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: who could say no to juice and a nap, or 110 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: at least juice? Nice? And you've got a Garfield mug 111 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: that says I'm kind of a big deal. Yeah, like 112 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: you've got it for me. Nice. And we're talking about families, right, 113 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: You can't really talk about Michael Rockefeller without talking about 114 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: the Rockefellers and Nelson Rockefellers. You said, Matt is a 115 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: fascinating character, and some would argue fairly anomalous, especially if 116 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: you look at history through a narrative of social and 117 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: financial class. Right, a socioeconomic lens would tell you that 118 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: a Nelson Rockefeller doesn't happen super often, but by the 119 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: time Michael is born, you know, he's like the baby 120 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: of a family. This is a januine American dynasty. His father, 121 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: Nelson Rockefeller, had already done some big things. He was established, 122 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: and Nelson came from John D. Rockefeller Junior. JD. Yep, 123 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: j D big big deal financier, right, financier. We say 124 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: so it sounds classier, okay, So just to get the 125 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: lineage correctly, a game of throne style in terms of 126 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: the first or second or third of his name. They 127 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: all had different first names, but he was the grandson 128 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: of John D. Rockefeller, of the Rockefeller Rockefeller's junior and 129 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: the great grandson of the John D. Rockefeller, so that 130 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: that would be first of his name. Junior would be 131 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: second of his name. And John D. Senior was the 132 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: founder of Standard Oil, which you may have heard of. 133 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: That's it's not called that anymore, but what did it become. 134 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: It's definitely some iteration of it still very much around. 135 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: And this is also an example of kind of being 136 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: first to market on the ground floor, if you will, 137 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: something like oil. You know, back when you could just 138 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: name it standard, you know, you know the one. It 139 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: reminds me of that we don't have to impress you 140 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: so much. Right, there's oil. That's what you need to know, folks. 141 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: It's kind of it still reminds me of weird naming conventions, 142 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: like how there was this restaurant in Atlanta called Legal Seafood. Right, yeah, 143 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: that's I think that's actually a chain. Um it's so 144 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: many Boston or something. But if you've seen the film, 145 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: there will be blood. Standard oil is mentioned a lot. 146 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: It's sort of the main competition to Daniel day Lewis's 147 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: character Daniel Plainview. Well. Yeah, it was around for several 148 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: years in the eighteen eighteen seventy I think is when 149 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: it started. But then guess what the government came through 150 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: and said, uh, this is a monopoly and it got 151 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: broken up into a bunch of different companies. I think 152 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: so forty something companies. Oh geez, yeah, it did. Must 153 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: have been quite a monopoly. The people, the tycoons and 154 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: titans of Indi Stry who owned companies that got broken 155 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: up for their monopolies, said hey, you know what we 156 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: should do. We should get into government. And then a 157 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: few generations later their families totally did so so that's 158 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: a story for a different time maybe. But but yeah, 159 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: like we said, Michael is the youngest kid. He has 160 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: a twin sister. There are a lot of other kids 161 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: who come before him, but being a Rockefeller and a 162 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: smart dude, he still gets a top notch silverspoon type 163 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: education the Buckley School, Phillips Exeiter goes to Harvard, where 164 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: he graduated coom laude. But one of the there's an 165 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: author we're going to talk about a lot, a guy 166 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: named Carl Hoffman, and Hoffman writes beautifully about Rockefeller, about 167 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: this story in particular, and Hoffman seems to argue that 168 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: Rockefeller has another education. Another moment that really speaks to 169 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: him shapes his destiny, and that's when he goes to 170 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: his family's museum, because you know, his family has a museum. 171 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: How cool would that be? I want to go to 172 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: your family's museums. And my first thought was, like, is 173 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: this a museum of the history of the Rockefellers, because 174 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: even at this point it's kind of a thing. I mean, 175 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: they're an important part of culture. But no, it was. 176 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: In fact, Rockefellers were fans of modern art and also 177 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: a bit of a loaded term primitive art that is 178 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: not guys, isn't this MoMA? Yeah, but they don't call 179 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: it the Museum of Primitive Art anymore at the moment, Yeah, right, right. 180 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: The Museum of Primitive Art inside the MoMA eventually gets 181 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: closed down, but at the time it's opening. Our buddy Michael, 182 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: he's eighteen years old. He's he's hanging with the swells. 183 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: It's a black tie, private reception event before the Museum 184 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: a Primitive Art opens, and his father gives this speech. 185 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: Nelson Rockefeller gives this speech about how important it is 186 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: to understand art. You know this speech, Just to be clear, 187 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't age super well, as you can tell by 188 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: the word primitive thrown around kind of Lucy goosey. But 189 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: this rocks Michael's world, Feller, sorry, Rockefeller's his world. Yes, 190 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: the rocks fellas left and right, and his perspective is 191 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: skewed in a very important, very profound way for him 192 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: because he's seeing this entire world, right, he seemed physical, 193 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: tangible artifacts of this entire world that he's only heard about, 194 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: he's only read about, and he's thinking there's something outside 195 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: of this cage of privilege, right, because fame, wealth, the 196 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: things people think they want. They can often be a cage, 197 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, and we get the feeling, at least the 198 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: way Hoffman tells it, that Michael Rockefeller at this young 199 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: age is going through something like that. Yeah, and he 200 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: acts on those feelings, joins the army, spends some time 201 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: as a private and in the early sixties he goes 202 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: on an expedition of self discovery and also you know, 203 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: the external discovery to study the Donni tribe of New 204 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: Guinea for Harvard's Peebody Museum. Okay, folks from that part 205 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: of the world that I said it, right, of archaeology 206 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: and ethnology. Yeah, and you know, this is a guy 207 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: who he's got all the stuff. Right. If he needs 208 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: some stuff, he can get it, right, doesn't matter what 209 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: the stuff is, he could get it if he wants it. 210 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: He like stabs his fingers and someone shows up with 211 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: a diet coke and a lego set. You know, if 212 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: that's what he wants. Oh yeah, unlimited legos, I guess. 213 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: But but but here's the thing. He doesn't go. He 214 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: doesn't travel to this part of the world as that person, right, 215 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: he doesn't have his huge entourage. He's not there, you know, 216 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: no one's watching over him hand and foot in that way. 217 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: He's actually I don't know, Bennick. I don't want to 218 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: put anything on you, but it reminds me of the 219 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: way you'll travel, like just immerse yourself into a place 220 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: and kind of become one. Does that make sense? I 221 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: like to think that, especially oh man, we're so excited 222 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: to get back on the road as a group. But 223 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: I think especially when we're traveling as a crew as 224 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: a unit, we do the same thing, you know, we 225 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: we often. We were just talking about this. We were 226 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: in Texas a while back and the three of us 227 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: were just on a night walk and there was a 228 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: moment where we got we got clocked right, somebody made us. 229 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: We got it, guys, we got Nadi. That was fun. Yeah. No, 230 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: I think we all are fans of like full immersion travel. 231 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it really is the only way to fly. Um, 232 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: it's just kind of having not really a schedule, but 233 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: like you know, just really feeling like you just kind 234 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: of discover things as they present themselves to Yeah, and 235 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: we've run into some really cool and some very strange 236 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: situations as a result. What I love about your point, 237 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: Matt is that, Yeah, this guy could have traveled with 238 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: an entourage, you know, and and said bring me the people. 239 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: You know, I want diet cokes and Lego sets and artifacts, 240 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: and I will bring them to my father. But he didn't, Well, yeah, 241 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: and I and I need two bodyguards at all times 242 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: while I'm traveling in this other country, right, I mean, 243 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: which would be almost standard if you're in that level 244 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: right of having money. But he didn't heard like like 245 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: the oil. Yeah, it's true. Tiny little aside. It reminds me. 246 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: It's it's a little bit of a sad analogy. But 247 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: I just saw this thing where at one point Michael 248 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: Jackson m paid or like his people like basely rented 249 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: out a grocery store for a day and then like 250 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: members of his entourage posted as regular shoppers so that 251 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson could feel what it felt like to grocery shop. Yeah, 252 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: apparently that's a true story. Was video of it. He's 253 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: like he's gliding around on the on the cart like Superman. 254 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: It's like, because that's what you do when you grocery shop. 255 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're not if you're taking a cart 256 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: through a parking lot and you don't write it a 257 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: little bit, Yeah, are you just surviving or are you living? Dude? Uh? 258 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: And I've gotten some looks before. Actually, I recently raced 259 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: a total stranger on a cart and a parking lot. 260 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: It was a very amicable race. Did you say we 261 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't. I should have expected. We just 262 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: both did the bro nod when we got It was 263 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: almost not a race. I guess. We're just riding together 264 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: in a publics as you pelt him with red shells, 265 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: you gotta get that boost on the beep beep, you 266 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: gotta hit that hit that accelerate right then then you 267 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: get a little boost. Think, y'all, that's great. I think uh, 268 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 1: I think we did. We had that moment where you know, 269 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: we're licking each other and we're realizing, oh, this is 270 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: the highlight of both our Saturday nights and we're both 271 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: probably too old to be doing this. No such thing. 272 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: You can translate a lot through a bro nod, you know. Anyway, 273 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: if you're hearing this, I wish you luck. My friend 274 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: made the cards be ever in your favor, and I 275 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: love you nor Well that was for you guys, and 276 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: so so uh yeah, okay, this is the thing. He 277 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: doesn't do any of that stuff we're describing. He is 278 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: the sound guy for this documentary, and no no shade 279 00:17:55,359 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: on sound guys, but it is sort of considered a 280 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: bit of a grunt job. You know, you have to 281 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: keep your levels right and get good sound, but you're 282 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: basically holding up a boom mic the whole time and 283 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: toting around like at this point it would have been 284 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: like a Nagra tape, you know, recorder, like a portable 285 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: real to real many real to real. So those things 286 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: are heavy. So he kind of relegated himself when he 287 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: could have insisted on being the director. You know, he 288 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: had the clout to make that happen. You know, you 289 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: want some financing, I'm the director, or at the very 290 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: least been pushy, but he wasn't. I really it speaks 291 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: volumes to the guy's whole attitude. I think it's cool 292 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: and it's hard. It's a hard job. That's especially trapesing 293 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: around the wilderness, you know well. And he also it's 294 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: he didn't just have audio equipment, which you're as you're saying, 295 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: is correct there. It's very heavy stuff. He's also got 296 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: a big camera, a big heavy camera back in the day, 297 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: and all the equipment you need to make that camera 298 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: run and all you know, all the film you have 299 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: to carry and all that stuff. Dude, it's still camera 300 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, but still but still yeah, it's a lot. 301 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: And the lenses are big and heavy and bulky. Yeah, 302 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: and you know he's moving in a group. This is 303 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: a this is a proper expedition, as they would call 304 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: it in that time. But I think we all have 305 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: immense respect for him, the the four of us on 306 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: the show today, including including Paul, we have been in 307 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: those situations, even with much more sophisticated, newer equipment, where 308 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: we're going around and we're just hoping whatever we had 309 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: to improvise two minutes ago works, you know, racing batteries, 310 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: all that crap. Even nowadays with you know, cameras and stuff, 311 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: you still have to It's it's a process to get 312 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: usable content, you know, whether you're recording audio with another phone, 313 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, and then you sync it up later, and 314 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: just being aware in that way and observing through that lens, 315 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: it really is you know, a mental strain as well. 316 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: You know. So just like imagine this is all going 317 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: on right Michael's out there in the wilderness. They're shooting 318 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 1: a documentary that I believe you can. There isn't there 319 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: footage of this that you can actually find right now? 320 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: Ben Uh yeah, it's a you can see and hear 321 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: his expeditions work in a documentary called Dead Birds. Sounds 322 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: like a bummer. Yeah, full disclosure. I haven't watched the 323 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: entirety of this, but you can. You can easily find clips. 324 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to say anything other than go through 325 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: the official channels. Okay, yeah, right, okay. So during this 326 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: time he is finding other things he's always like in 327 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: letters to his family, we know that he is having 328 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: one of the most exciting periods of his life, and 329 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: he's wondering what's next, what's over the horizon, because this 330 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: is a place where a lot of what he thinks 331 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: of as civilization or Western civilisation has not traveled. So 332 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: he briefly leaves this expedition to study a different group 333 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: that we should probably talk about a little bit, the 334 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: Asthmat tribe or Asthmat tribe Asmat. They're on the southwestern 335 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: coast of Dutch Colonial Guinea or New Guinea, and he 336 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: feels like he is connected. He's back in that moment 337 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: at the museum where he heard his dad's awesome speech, 338 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: because you know, if you're that level of politician, you're 339 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: probably good at speeches. And so he's recalling this, and 340 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: we actually we have his correspondence or part of it 341 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: from this time. Yeah, he says, I am having a 342 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: thoroughly exhausting but most exciting time here. The Asthmat is 343 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: like a huge puzzle with the variations and ceremony and 344 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: art style forming the pieces. My trips are enabling me 345 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: to comprehend, if only in a superficial, rudimentary manner, the 346 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: nature of this puzzle. That was from a letter from 347 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: Michael on November thirteenth, nineteen sixty one. So he's talking 348 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: about pieces and art style that was sort of a 349 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: hallmark of this group, correct, Yeah, the Asthmat people in particular, 350 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: He found their art fascinating. They would have these incredibly 351 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: sophisticated and do have these incredibly sophisticated wood carvings that 352 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: were made to honor ancestors. And you can see pictures 353 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: of this very easily. Actually some of it is in 354 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: the moment today, I believe. And this just rocks his 355 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: world and he wants to be the person he wants 356 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: to be Promethean. He wants to bring this back to 357 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: New York because, yeah, I remember this time, this was 358 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: this was like a discovery, not essentially, I mean, this 359 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 1: style of art, this kind of work wasn't something that 360 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: folks in Western art circles would have been aware of 361 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 1: it at all. This is like something new. Yeah, not 362 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: many people would have been aware of it in kind 363 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: of the the upper echelons of the art circles at 364 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: the time. And so their lifestyle also seems very I 365 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: don't want to say alien or foreign, but it's very 366 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: different to what he's experienced up to this point. And 367 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: this also enthralls him, and so he goes this one 368 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: time and then he says, I want to travel back 369 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: a second time. And when I travel back, I'm gonna 370 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: barter and I'm gonna collect enough material to make this 371 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: world class exhibit when I come back, you know, to 372 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: to the blue blood region of my homeland. Do you 373 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: think he was being equitable with these barters? Like I mean, 374 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, because you think about art and artifacts like 375 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: this often being like stolen or at the very least 376 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: kind of swindled, you know, out of folks that maybe 377 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: you know, we're not up on these kinds of tactics, 378 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: but Michael strikes me as a little bit better than that. 379 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering what you think. I don't know. You know, 380 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: we've never we haven't met the guy. It's possible that 381 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: we might. It's not probable, but it's possible. We've we've 382 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: never met the guy, and it is I don't know. 383 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: It becomes a matter of conjecture because even if you're 384 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: going into a place like that, doing something like that 385 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: with the best of intentions, you might be romanticizing people right, 386 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: exoticizing them, you know, when the when the reality is 387 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: they're just people living their lives as best they can. 388 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: I wonder if we can just quickly talk about the 389 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: people because within that In search of episode learn Nimoy, 390 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: he pronounced it as osmat and I wrote down I 391 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: wrote down the name wagh incorrectly before I looked it up, 392 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: like how to actually spell it, because it's spelled asmat, 393 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: which roughly translates to treat people. If you look up 394 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: the ritualization of the simple task of cutting down a 395 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: tree and then using that tree for you know, the tribe, 396 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: it is beautiful and fascinating and awesome, And I think 397 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: that's exactly why Michael became so interested. It reminds me 398 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: of the some restaurants and the philosophy behind making food 399 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: that's really popular right now, where you use food, well, 400 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: you use every part of the animal, right it's you 401 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: translate that to using every part of the tree in 402 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: this case. But I know, it's just it really interested 403 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: me personally, and like, you know it. Maybe a modern 404 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: equivalent might be something like chainsaw sculptures. But again, they 405 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: didn't have chainsaws, they didn't have any kind of power tools. 406 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: This was all done in the most you know, bespoke, 407 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: handcrafted way possible. No, no shade on chainsaw sculptures. Yeah, 408 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: but but imagine using every piece of the bark, every 409 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: piece that gets cut off. It becomes a part of 410 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: the village itself in everyday Life's can be used in 411 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: medicines as well, and things, I mean, and I'm sure 412 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: they were, you know, the roots and certain aspects like 413 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: that could be used to make tea or whatever. I mean, 414 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: there's a there's a bunch of things you can use 415 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: a tree for, just like an animal. Yeah, and so 416 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: did he find this beautiful? Yes, undoubtedly. To the earlier question, 417 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: did he was he doing his best to be equitable 418 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: in his bartering to not take advantage of right people. Right, 419 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: Probably he was. He was probably not trying to take advantage. 420 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: He was probably trying to say, here are things that 421 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: are of value to you, and let's trade. I'm not 422 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: going to take this from you. And I also want 423 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: to tell your story. I want to share your voice 424 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: with the world, you know. So he wasn't setting out 425 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: thinking I'm going to get over on a bunch of 426 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: rooms or anything like that. Not to romanticize, you know him, 427 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: but I think that's pretty cool, you know, I mean comparatively, 428 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: that's a vision he's like. At this time. This is 429 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: a Dutch colonial possession and colonialism has a bad name 430 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: for a reason. So he also, of course being a 431 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: big deal being one of the VIPs of the world 432 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: at the time, whether or not he likes that, he 433 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: is assigned a government anthropologist named Renee Wassing, and Wassing 434 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: is on these expeditions with him. Washing is sort of 435 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: like a fixer, sort of a minder, sort of a sidekick, 436 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: the guy who knows the lay of the land to 437 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: the other guy. Yes, yeah, Livingston to his other guy, 438 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: and so Washing and Rockefeller and these two local teenage guides. 439 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: They set off and in this next trip, operating out 440 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: of kind of their home base. This next trip, they 441 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: spend three weeks visiting thirteen different villages in the region. 442 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: They're collecting everything that they can barter for, and they're 443 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: also trying maybe just as or more importantly, they're trying 444 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: to make connections which will be important to some theories later. 445 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 1: And they get back to their home base, you know, 446 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: offload what they got, get some more supplies, some more 447 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: goods to barter for, provisions and so on. They set 448 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: off again and on November seventeenth, nineteen sixty one, things 449 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: go wrong. They're going to head down to Southern Osmat 450 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: or Asmat or however you want to say it. And 451 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: they're very excited about this because again in his mind, 452 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: in Michael Rockefeller's mind, this is unknown country. And you 453 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: can see in his letters he talks about how frontiers 454 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: in general are disappearing and he wants to see the wild. 455 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: So Ozmat is the name of the region as well 456 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: as the name of the tribe. That's a great question. 457 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: Ozmat Is, I should say Southern Osmat territory, so Osmat 458 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: ethnic group that is in what would now be modern Indonesia, 459 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: modern day Indonesia, South Papua. It's on like if you 460 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: look at the island, it's on the southwestern coast, and 461 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: it's bordering a place called the Arafura Sea, which is 462 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: also important because it's you know, it's one of those 463 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: places where you can think you're on a river and 464 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're doing, you can find 465 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: yourself in a around and find out situation. And that's 466 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: how that would have been traveling right by sea, Yeah, 467 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: by sea. And this place is so unknown to the 468 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: west that Rockefeller and actually the entirety of the Dutch 469 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: colonial government, they know one white guy who is like aware, 470 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: like cool, knows his way around the place, has earned 471 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: the trust of the people who live there. His name 472 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: Cornelius van Cassel. And so Rockefeller and his crew say, Okay, 473 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: we've reached out, we've made some contacts. We're going to 474 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: meet up with Van Kessel when we get to this 475 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: remote area, and he's going to help us kind of. 476 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: He's gonna liaise, right, and he will help us learn 477 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: more about this culture, learn more about their practices, and 478 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: come away with stuff from my art show. And right 479 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: around this time is when something goes horribly wrong. And 480 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: we'll continue this story right after a word from our 481 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: sponsor and we've returned. Okay, so we're on our second 482 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: leg of the journey here with our protagonist Michael, with 483 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: Renee Wassing, who is by the way from the Dutch 484 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: New Guinea Department of Native Affairs. Doesn't that just sound 485 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: lovely coming off the top, he said sarcastically, But that's 486 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: what he was called. And they're also with their two guides. 487 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: They're two younger guides, and they are traveling by boat, 488 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: headed back out. So let's get back to them in 489 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: the boat. Oh yeah, this is where we go to 490 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: Karl Hoffman. We're pulling directly from some of his riding, 491 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: he says. As they began to cross the mouth of 492 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: the Bets River, conflicting tides and winds whipped up waves 493 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: and cross currents. Water that had been gentle one minute 494 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: was heaving the next. A wave drowned their outboard and 495 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: the catamaran began to drift. Then the waves capsized it. 496 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 1: We should also mentioned this is a homemade catamaran. This 497 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: is not like really fancy, this is just a boat 498 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: that floats. Yes, like Jerry cans. It looks like it's 499 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: from far cry. It's that kind of thing. No, maybe 500 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: I would probably be all of them. But the outboard 501 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: is the motor that's they're talking about. And of course 502 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: capsize just means it flipped over. And so these guides teenage, 503 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: I mean, they're kids, they're familiar with the area. They 504 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: know that things are going wrong. We're gonna go get help. 505 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: They jump in. The river is a big river. Sometimes 506 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: if you haven't grown up around big rivers, you might think, well, 507 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: how hard could it be? This women across the river. 508 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: It's very difficult because this is again right on the 509 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: coast of a sea. So they successfully make it to shore, 510 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: but the shore is so far away that that washing 511 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: and Rockefeller don't know they made it. And these kids 512 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: heroically trudge through miles and miles a very not cool terrain. 513 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: They make it back to the home base where they left, 514 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: and it's the evening. It's late in the evening, and 515 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: they say, we need to send help. Those other two 516 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: dudes are still on the river somewhere. And again, what 517 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: this happened for every person who went missing, probably not, 518 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: but the Dutch colonial power structure there knows what a 519 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: Rockefeller is. So they they send ships, they send helicopters, 520 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: they send planes for this search. The entire time this 521 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: search is happening, those two guys are clinging to the 522 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: remnants of their of their boat, and they realize they're 523 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: getting closer and closer and closer to the open ocean, 524 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: which is exactly what you don't want to happen. And 525 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: it's my understanding that twenty four hours passed like from 526 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: the capsizing to what the thing we're about to talk 527 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: to you next. At the very least, it was a 528 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: long night. They were not. It's arduous, right, clinging clinging 529 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: to flots of in water might sound easy, you know, 530 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: whomever that lady was in the Titanic might have made 531 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: it look easy to lay out a door, but it's exhausting. 532 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: Did you see that. James Cameron recently did an experiment 533 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: that proved that there was room for Jack on that door. Yes, 534 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: he acknowledged it. I guess kudos to him for that. 535 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: Jerry Can, by the way, that's like a gas can, 536 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: like a large gas can. Ooh yeah, I mean you 537 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: could kind of yes, yeah, exactly. And so they're they're 538 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: floating they're exhausted, and they've got to do something because 539 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: it's just going to get worse if they get out 540 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: to the ocean, because the ocean will eat things. Oh yeah, 541 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: So Michael, being a man of action, decided to do 542 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: something about it. He stripped down to his under rush 543 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: and he attached two of the empty gas can jerry 544 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: can things to his belt to it like as a 545 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: personal like improvised flotation device, and he tried desperately to 546 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: get to the show or which would have been around 547 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: between somewhere between three and up to ten miles away. 548 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: Presumably there's current. So he's, you know, and he's waved 549 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: down by these cans. So that's a lot. That's an 550 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: arduous swim right there. Yeah, and you know, according to 551 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: the stories, Renee told him not to do it, like, 552 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: don't do this, man, you don't have it in you. 553 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: But Michael appeared to be determined to just go and try. Yeah, 554 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,919 Speaker 1: and he said, look, from my estimation, this shore has 555 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: to be somewhere between three to ten miles away or right, 556 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: it's a heck of a swim. But I've got these 557 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: flutation devices, right, so I won't have to be working 558 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: the entirety of the time, and it's not like the 559 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: dolicators or snakes or sharks. Yeah, we don't know whether 560 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: he was correct, and we probably never will. And the 561 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: reason we don't know this is because this and was 562 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: never seen again still hasn't been seen by anybody. It 563 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: SISMID officially confirmed. Right. The Rockefeller family has stayed mum 564 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: on this. We will see some speculation, but right now, 565 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:23,479 Speaker 1: no physical evidence nor physical remains of Michael Rockefeller have 566 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: been found. The teenage guides were okay, they made it, 567 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: and I believe Renee Wassing was all right as well. Yeah, 568 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: the big search and rescue mission was successful and they 569 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: did locate the remains of that boat and they found 570 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: Renee Wassing on there and alive. Yep. And the only 571 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: reason we know these details about what Michael did right 572 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: before he disappeared is because Renee was able to recount 573 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: that stuff. It sounds like Michael should have taken Renee's 574 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: advice and stuck with him, clinging to that debris. Yeah, 575 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: if your law, the best thing to do is stay 576 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: where you are unless you have to go. And Michael 577 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: felt like he had to go, and Renee felt like 578 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: he you know, also has every enthusiast of dungeons and 579 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: dragons nose. You don't split up the party. Things go wrong. 580 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: So this this triggers this huge search, a cavalcade of 581 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: searches really throughout decades, and in the aftermath of his disappearance. 582 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: No physical evidence has been found. No living Michael Rockefeller 583 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: has been found, No glasses because he was wearing spectacles 584 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: have been found, no confirmation of bones or remains. And 585 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: that's why so many people I've continued attempting to solve 586 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: this mystery, and we welcome you to this. If you 587 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: have the answer, please write to us and help us 588 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: with this question what happened to Michael Rockefeller, And with 589 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: that will take a break your word from our sponsors 590 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: and return. Here's where it gets crazy. Some people might 591 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: know if one of the theories is true. Some people 592 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: might know, but right now no one knows for certain. 593 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: Right outside of a very remote part of modern day Indonesia, 594 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: no one knows. And that those people would only know 595 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: if part of these theories are true. If there is 596 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: someone in that area who knows what happened, they're not 597 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: going to say much about it. Well, yeah, because we 598 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: talked about the resources that the Rockefellers have. Right, imagine 599 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: you are a parent, doesn't matter what kind of wealth 600 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: you have. Just imagine you're a parent, and imagine your 601 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: child goes on a trip and that child goes missing 602 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: while on that trip. I'm assuming you would use every 603 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: resource you have to try and locate your child. In 604 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: this case, the Rockefellers have all the resources. So when 605 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: they start at full scale search, not like the you know, 606 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: the Dutch search that end up finding Renee, but this 607 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: this is like just imagine on a whole other scale 608 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: of searching for their son, and man, they throw everything 609 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: they've got at it. It's weird though, because they charter 610 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: a Boeing seven h seven and they you know, fill 611 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: it with reporters and they you know, end up around 612 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty miles southeast of the Ozma region. 613 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: But they did they not send some kind of serious 614 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: search party, like into the region where he disappeared. I'm 615 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: confused about that. With those resources that we're talking about, 616 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 1: you think they'd find some kind of crazy wilderness fixer 617 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: type person to take a crew out there and not 618 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: just have these like kind of sad newsless press conferences. Well, 619 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: it was there were there were teams out there searching, Okay, 620 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what was going on. The problem 621 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: was and having enough people who could who could actually 622 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: like translate right and and have discussions about okay, well 623 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: did you see anything? What you know? What did you 624 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: see and all of that. There weren't enough people to 625 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: actually do that right. And aerial coverage is helpful, but 626 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: it only does so much when you have when you 627 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: have a dense forest area. Yeah, there were a lot 628 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: of problems. And on November twenty fourth, the Dutch Minister 629 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,760 Speaker 1: of the Interior is speaking to the New York Times 630 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: and says, quote, there is no longer any hope of 631 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: finding Michael Rockefeller alive. And that's only five days after 632 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: he goes missing. Yeah, yeah, and there you know again, 633 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: this is also a pretty tense period geopolitically for these folks. 634 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 1: This is also not their first rodeo losing someone. I 635 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine that the Rockefeller family would have been okay 636 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 1: with a statement like that. Well, they're a little bit 637 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: of a black box about some of this. And you know, 638 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: it's again to the point about being a concerned parent, 639 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: you sometimes want the privacy right so we don't We 640 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: don't know how they may have personally felt about several 641 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: of the turns in the investigation, but we do know. 642 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: Nine days after we can confirm Michael Rockefeller swam away 643 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: attempting to reach the shore, his father and his sister's 644 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,439 Speaker 1: twin sister flew home. They flew back to New York, 645 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: and then if you fast forward two more weeks, the 646 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: Dutch government calls off the search, and eventually Michael Rockefeller 647 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: has declared legally dead, which we'll get to you, but 648 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: other searches follow. Like we're saying right now, the official 649 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: conclusion is Rockefeller either drowned attempting to reach the shore, 650 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: or he was attacked by a predator. We weren't just 651 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: doing a bit there. That's hungry water at this time, 652 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,239 Speaker 1: and in that part of the world, a shark could 653 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,919 Speaker 1: have Shark attacks are very rare, honestly, but it could 654 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,399 Speaker 1: have happened a saltwater crocodile. Could he could have run 655 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: into that, and that that kind of attack is that's 656 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: a higher likelihood, honestly. Sure. Yeah, And the swim was 657 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: more like somewhere between twelve to fourteen miles, So yeah, 658 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: I mean, that'll just wear you out, unless that's your thing, 659 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: you're like some sort of Olympic level endurance swimmer. I mean, 660 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,240 Speaker 1: that's that's more than half the length of the English 661 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 1: Channel at the narrowest point at the streets of Dover. Yeah, 662 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: and again, theoretically he had those flotation devices in the 663 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: oil cans, right, or the gas cans. Maybe he could 664 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: have taken breaks in between. You know, a lot of exertion. 665 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: But again, just holding onto those is exertion. But if 666 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: there's occurrence and he took a break and weren't actively paddling, 667 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't you kind of lose ground head on back? Yeah? 668 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: Exposure exhaustion. Oh yeah, I mean, my goodness. We should 669 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: know that there is footage you can see of Michael's father, Nelson, 670 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: being brought oil cans or petroleum cans that are thought 671 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: to be the ones at least one I've seen. It 672 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: was thought to be one that Michael was carrying, right, 673 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: But again, these are generic Jerry cans. Yeah, you know, 674 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: they're not bespoke or monogrammed or anything like that, which 675 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: would be weird. I'd be a weird flex in it 676 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: would But so yeah, you can also see footage of 677 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: people retracing the passage of this catamaran and going to 678 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: these waters themselves. Karl Hoffman does this and describes it 679 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: again beautifully in his work. So some Dutch officials at 680 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: the time are being optimistic. Again, as we say, it's 681 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: not their first rodeo. They have lost people. They know 682 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: the waters well too. And at least one guy says, 683 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, if Michael Rockefeller did reach the shore, he 684 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,240 Speaker 1: would probably be safe because here we consider the native 685 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,879 Speaker 1: populations pretty friendly. But how much of that is him 686 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: just trying to reassure someone, trying to not be a 687 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: jerk to someone who's lost a loved one, And how 688 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 1: much of it is speaking from fact I don't know well. 689 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: And there's some timing stuff there that Carl Hoffman points 690 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: out that we're going to get into later, just about 691 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: why a public statement from a Dutch official would probably 692 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: be positive, like overall on purpose when speaking about the 693 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: tribes and New Guinea. Yeah. And then also speaking of timing, 694 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: we have to remember there's a social lens in which 695 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:53,919 Speaker 1: this occurs. Some groups in the area. We're still practicing headhunting, 696 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: we're still practicing cannibalism. Simply the reality and the colonial 697 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: government there, and I mean the West in general still 698 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: had these crazy offensive ideas about people they consider primitive 699 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: or savage quote I mean honestly less than is what 700 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: they were thinking. They have very condescending attitudes. And it's 701 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,320 Speaker 1: no surprise that the public sphere began to ignore well 702 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 1: established facts about how people can drown or die of 703 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 1: exhaustion on the water, and instead they started a glom 704 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: onto these stories that Rockefeller had been killed or have 705 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: been eaten or gone full heart of darkness. I mean, 706 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: there's some pretty offensive Looney Tunes cartoons that depict that 707 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, you know, the idea of like savages, 708 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it really was in the zeitgeist 709 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: in such a way that it was in popular culture, 710 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: you know. And a complicating factor about this is that, yes, 711 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 1: these practices are real, but are how sensationalized? Are they 712 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: right to pull headlines? How? And also, you know, this 713 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: is a very diverse part of the world, So how 714 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: broad of a brush are these right? Would that be 715 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: the question? Like I I, you know what, I'll do it. 716 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: This is a problematic and dumb comparison. But if you 717 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: ever go to different countries and you're from the United states. 718 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: You will meet people who are surprised that you don't 719 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: fit certain stereotypes. That's just like a human thing, right, 720 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: you know, they say, oh, you how many guns do 721 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: you own? Yeah? And I mean even today there are 722 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: countries that like eat things that we consider taboo, you 723 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: know over over here in the US. So and these 724 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: kinds of cultural differences, well maybe not as extreme as cannibalism, 725 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: they certainly still exist. Yeah, And you know, I'm just 726 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,479 Speaker 1: pointing out some of the stuff that Leonardieboy already pointed 727 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: out and in search of when you knew hear that 728 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: episode that some of the rituals that Michael was so 729 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: interested in, right the mangrove tree carving, the whole ritual 730 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: of that, Like as the tree is making its way 731 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: to the village center, the rituals that take place after 732 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: that all have to do with basically preparing for a battle, 733 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 1: an attack to to I think what they call it, 734 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: to revenge another tribe in which they're having war. So 735 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: like it's it's based on violence, the thing that Michael 736 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: was so interested in that the tribes created. And that's 737 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,759 Speaker 1: just it's a variation of ancestors too. It's it's all 738 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,839 Speaker 1: it's all of that. It's everything's all of that. It's 739 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: like revenge for the ancestors or past injustices. There's not there. 740 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: There aren't really accidents in this belief system. Is the 741 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 1: issue if a disease occurs, that disease is an attack 742 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: of some sort or retribution for something that you or 743 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: your community did incorrectly. Yes, so it becomes very complicated too. 744 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: So the generalization is so problematic here, But it is 745 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: real violent stuff or potentially violent stuff that you're dealing with. Okay, 746 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: hey on, we did it. This doesn't always happen on 747 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: this show. But we've we've gone deeper than we thought 748 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: into the rabbit hole. There's still so much to explore, 749 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,359 Speaker 1: a gentleman, I think we're looking at a two parter here. 750 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: This is real. We definitely didn't record this later now 751 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: it's true. We did come to a place where we 752 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: realized that there was a lot to cover on this topic. 753 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 1: And I think y'all will agree on conspiracy realism land. 754 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,879 Speaker 1: Oh yes, make sure you stick around for episode two 755 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: because we're gonna dive deep deep into the conspiracy. Sorry, 756 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: I was doing my my Mama told me thing. Thet 757 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,600 Speaker 1: talkness there's just so much to explore here, and we 758 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: really do break apart a lot of this stuff in 759 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: great detail. So stick around for episode two, don't go away, 760 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: and we'll be back in just a few days. In 761 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: the meantime, you can reach out to us on social 762 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: media where we are conspiracy stuff on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook, 763 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: Conspiracy stuff show on Instagram and TikTok. And if you 764 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: don't want to do any of that, why not just 765 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 1: give us a phone called. You know what the number is. 766 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: You already know, but we're gonna tell you anyway. It's 767 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: one eight three three std wy t K. And if 768 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,439 Speaker 1: that doesn't quite bad your badgers, feel free to send 769 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,399 Speaker 1: us a good old fashioned email. Where we are conspiracy 770 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want you to 771 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from 772 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,799 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 773 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.