WEBVTT - Stop People Pleasing for Good 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:07.200 Hey fam, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright Side, we're 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.320 diving into a topic that's so real for so many 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.680 of us, people pleasing. Okay, so joining us is licensed therapist, 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.480 relationship expert, and author doctor Kathleen Smith. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:20.920 She's here to show us how. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.079 To break free from the people pleasing trap and take 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.960 control of our lives. And get this, She's revealing a 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.440 surprising reason you might be a people pleaser. It could 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.680 have something to do with whether you're the oldest or 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:33.600 youngest sibling. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:35.880 It's Wednesday, January twenty second. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.000 I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:48.440 bright Side from Hello Sunshine. Okay, listen, I don't like 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.400 to exaggerate, but today's show could literally change your life. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.080 We are talking people pleasing. We're talking about how you 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.600 can recognize it when you're doing it, why certain people 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.240 are drawn to it, and truly what you can do 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.360 starting today to stop the people pleasing cycles. Siman, do 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.160 you feel like you have any bits of the disease 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:10.679 to please? 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:11.679 For sure? 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.320 I think it's impossible to be a human being and 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.720 not have this desire to people please. When I think 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.119 about my twenties, I feel like I was a people 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.679 pleaser my entire twenties. I straightened my hair to please people. 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.920 I wore its height, uncomfortable clothing to please and also 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.559 appease the male gaze. I even chose my career path 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:34.880 based on stability, and I feel like that's kind of 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.679 people pleasing society at large in a way. 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:39.400 And then even getting married. 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.679 At twenty three years old was a people pleasing move 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.039 in a lot of ways. There's a lot of pressure 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:45.760 to get married from such a young age. If you 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:47.319 grew up in the Christian Church, you kind of know 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.160 what I'm talking about. And I look back and I'm like, 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.960 who needs to get married at twenty three? Like, no one, 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:54.400 that's just crazy. 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:56.680 Wait, what do you mean about your job? 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:01.600 I think I definitely entertained other options, but I landed 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.160 on journalism. I landed on this one because I felt 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.080 like it was going to be the most stable. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:11.440 That's something I've never heard anybody say media, it would 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.360 be the most stable. What was the other option? Circa Sole? 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.639 I wish that sounds great. I would love to I 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.919 would love to be a Sarca Sole performer. Maybe it's 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.280 not too late for me. How about you? How where 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:23.840 are you at with people pleasing right now? 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.840 I actually feel like I'm at a really good place 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.640 with it right now. But I couldn't have said that 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.560 years ago. I actually think therapy really helped me because 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.600 one of the things about people pleasing is that, in short, 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.440 it's really about avoiding conflict, right, And so a lot 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.280 of this is about deep rooted habits that are hard 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.840 to change. But the good news is that a lot 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.160 of it is just about recognizing it, and so is 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.440 so many great therapists say just noticing is helpful in 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.720 taking steps towards change, and I think therapy helped me 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.400 notice things like I so feel aligned with what you 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:02.520 said about your twenties. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.840 I think age has helped me with people pleasing. 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.200 I remember dating this guy when I was twenty one 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.120 and he was a little older than me, and because 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.920 he was older, I thought everything he liked was just 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:13.680 the coolest. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:15.000 Oh yeah, been there. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:16.920 Right, And so he told me about one of his 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.040 favorite albums, and I went home. I pretended I knew 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:21.639 what he was talking about, and then I went home 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.000 and binged the whole album and googled cultural criticism about it, 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:26.520 so I could like really be in the know. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:29.440 And I think when I got into the. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.560 Corporate world or the news business, like that morphed into 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:38.280 smiling or laughing at terrible jokes in the office. Or 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.840 I've had bosses say like really uncomfortable things to me 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.360 and I just kind of brushed them off because I 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.560 didn't want to make things awkward. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.880 For sure. And I think, do you consider that people pleasing? 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:50.880 Absolutely? I think it's just. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:54.920 At the end of the day, it's like, whether it's 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:59.440 people pleasing or whether it's adhering to cultural norms, it's 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.160 still the same type of behavior. You know, it's not 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.200 wanting to rock the boat. And I agree it's something 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.080 that i've I think it's been easier to shake as 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:08.720 I get older. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.040 Okay, so if you're listening and you're thinking, I don't 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.320 know if I'm a people pleaser, let me throw a 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.920 few things out at you. If you've ever helped a 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.359 stranger move furniture at Ikea, you don't work there, but 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.960 you carried that flat packed shelf like you were getting paid, 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.719 people pleaser? Okay, have you ever over shared at a 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.200 networking event? You let someone's casual? How are you turn 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.719 into a ten minute monologue about your life? Because you 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.920 didn't want to seem rude. People pleasing. How about agreeing 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.680 to babysit pets you're afraid of? You ever said I'd 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.880 love to watch your snake? Just kidding, But maybe you've 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.040 watched somebody's dog or cat and you don't really want to. 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.919 That is people pleasing. So we are going to dive 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:50.800 into it today. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.440 Well, I'm really hoping our guest today has the solutions, 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.359 and I really believe she will. And here's why. Doctor 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.560 Kathleen Smith is an expert in relationship systems and the 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.520 author of the books True to You and Everything Isn't Terrible. 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.880 She's also the woman behind a very popular newsletter called 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:10.320 The Anxious Overachiever, which provides relationship tools for those of 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.479 us who are constantly on the verge of burnout. Danielle, 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.640 I'm bummed that I missed this conversation, but I'm really 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:17.040 excited to hear this one. 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:18.600 I know I'm bummed you missed it too. 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.880 We missed you, but I am excited to have Kathleen 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.600 Smith here with us today to help us break our 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.240 people pleasing habits, or at least notice them. Here's my 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:36.080 conversation with doctor Kathleen Smith, Doctor Smith, Welcome to the 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:36.680 bright side. 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:37.680 Thank you for having me. 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:39.080 Am I talking to. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.719 A people pleaser, a recovering people pleaser. Where are you 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.320 at on the spectrum of the disease to please? 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.200 I am such a good student of other people and 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:52.880 what makes them happy, but a tremendous superpower and a 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:53.960 terrible liability. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:58.719 Also, I'll admit to you, I'm in the process of 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.880 recovering from people pleasing. I'll never forget when I heard 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.080 Oprah talk about it for the very first time. She 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.720 called it the disease to please, and I remember her 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.480 giving an example of what it was. And her example 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.960 was basically that someone would call her and ask her 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.120 for a favor, and she thought, because she had the 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.159 means or the opportunity to help, that she had to help. 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.200 And she didn't want to let somebody down. 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.640 And I resonated with it so much, and I thought, 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.880 oh man, maybe I have this. 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.680 Does it affect almost the whole population? 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.760 It does? I mean, obviously it varies, but it is 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.719 the most human thing about us, because we're built to 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.520 cooperate and get along with each other. That's why we 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.560 beat out the Neanderthals and so many other species is 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.920 because we are tuned in to what pleases people, and 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.360 you shouldn't beat yourself up about what's the most human 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:52.000 thing about you? 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.160 I think, I think to start the conversation off, I'd 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.840 love to know what the actual definition of people pleasing is. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:05.400 Yeah, well, the definition I use is accommodating to keep 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:10.000 things calm, not necessarily happy, but just how do you 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.119 adjust how you react to people right in a way 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.920 that brings the tension down because we are so allergic 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.080 to that tension and we will contort in any number 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.440 of ways to avoid it. And so that's all I 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:25.480 think of people pleasing. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.360 When you talk about that tension, all I think about 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.400 is childhood because to me, the origins of people pleasing 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.480 seems like it starts so young. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:38.560 Is that what your research found? 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:39.320 Yes? 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.200 I mean you kids pick it up between adults, between parents, right, 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.240 and they do things to mediate right. They pick it 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.080 up between their siblings. They learn what pleases the teacher 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:52.680 and makes the teacher happy. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:52.920 Right. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.600 I was definitely a teacher's pet. I had some that 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:56.200 going on. 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:56.520 Same. 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.720 All we encounter other humans and we learn calms things 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:05.120 down very quickly, and then we use that skill into adulthood. 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:07.200 You mentioned the word cooperation. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:12.360 I'm so curious what the line is between pleasing and cooperation, 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.520 because I guess that's a question I ask myself a lot, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.000 because I do want to be a good friend. I 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:19.880 do want to be a good family member, a good 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.680 community member, and sometimes that requires doing things, showing up 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.640 to things that you don't necessarily want to do, but 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.480 it's really beneficial to the relationship. You also don't want 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.560 to lose yourself in the process. How do you describe 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.920 that line? Yeah, I think I loved your description. 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.200 Just now. That's how I think about the biggest dilemma 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.720 of being human. You have to go along with the group. 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.640 Sometimes you can't have it your own way all the time. 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.880 And yet there are moments where you have to say, 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.400 I don't think that way or I cannot do that 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.559 for you, right, And so every day is a negotiation 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.520 between do I shift and kind of go with the group, 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.079 or do I I make a move out on my own. 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.800 And I think the biggest thing to me is it's like, 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.679 is it coming out of your best thinking or is 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:09.880 it coming out of the anxiety or the tension? 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:10.480 Right? 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.680 Are you just trying to keep things calm as quickly 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.800 as possible and make people happy, or can you kind 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.120 of shift out of that a little bit? 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.360 That's interesting, So because I love thinking about like questions 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.200 to ask yourself when you feel this arise and it's 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.880 am I doing this to keep the peace? Or am 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.320 I doing this because it feels like it's in line 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:32.120 with my values? 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:33.439 Is that what I'm hearing? 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.679 Yeah, it's the sort of the how do I make decisions? 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.720 What's going on when I when I make a decision 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.840 or when I react to something. How much of the 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.079 front part of my brain is involved in that process? 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.720 And how much is not right? Because most of the 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.920 time we're on autopilot, we're just reacting, and that's okay. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.199 But if you can find one or two moments in 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.400 a day where you can really stop and say, what 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.080 do I think is the best way forward? 0:09:59.160 --> 0:09:59.360 Here? 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:04.400 You see the opportunities maybe to kind of not people 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:07.520 please or test out the theory that maybe you won't 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.600 die if you say no to but to somebody, which 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.560 your body can really trick you into believing. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.320 The first thing that comes up for me is invitations 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.880 or coffee meetings. That's like what I'm currently struggling with 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.040 right now. I'm a person who really values connection. It's 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.000 at the heart of my job, my personal value system. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.960 And at the same time, I'm so pulled, like stretched 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.080 too thin, exhausted, can't even if I want to attend 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.280 all the things or meet all the people, can't do it. 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.240 What are examples that come up in your work all 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.840 the time? I know that's so specific to me. I'm 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.120 curious about other examples that happens with me too. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:49.800 I get emails from people who say, can you look 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.160 at this writing I'm doing? Or can you talk to 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:53.440 me about your profession? 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:53.800 Right? 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.760 All these great emails from college students I get, and 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.640 I have to think about whether I say yes or no? Right, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.640 And I think that just goes back to being honest 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.400 with people, you know, whether that's saying something like you 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.640 will not get the best version of me if I 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.560 meet with you right now, so I'm going to have 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.920 to say no. And how is giving people your thinking 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.560 useful for them? They might not like it, right, but 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.120 it's helpful. Yeah, And it's a great workout for you too. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.200 I think also as a therapist, you know, I have 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.520 to really think about how many hours a day can 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:27.680 I really be useful to people, And if I try 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.720 and fit in another person, is that really helping them 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.680 or is that me just trying to avoid their upsetness 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:35.360 in the moment? 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.480 Right, So you hit on something that I'm so curious about, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.840 because when we think of people pleasing, we think of selflessness. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.080 I think that's like one of the first things that 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:50.239 comes up. But I'm almost wondering if it's less about 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.040 selflessness and more about self protection, because are you really 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.920 doing somebody any favors? Are you giving of yourself if 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.679 you're not showing up in the best way or you 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.160 don't actually want to be there. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:03.840 I think that's such a great question, and I sort 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.080 of phrase it as am I being helpful? Or am 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.439 I managing my own stress? And that can be a 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.680 form of self protection certainly, but I think ninety percent 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:20.280 of the time it's about dismanaging the stress of having 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.080 to be a person who has to make decisions, you know, 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.280 And that can be helpful because then you can realize, no, 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.520 it's not about letting somebody down. It's about recognizing that 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.959 I have to do something else with my stress. Then 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.880 just say yes to everybody that that's ultimately not effective 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:37.640 way to manage it over the long haul. 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.839 What's the overlap here between people pleasing in boundaries? 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:47.400 People get so focused on how a boundary is received, 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.240 and I think the same thing can happen with people 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.120 pleasing right. The focus is all on the other and 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.439 how they're going to react. And what I challenge people 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.200 to do is, can you shift the focus back to yourself? 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.679 And to me? A boundary is telling somebody, here's what 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.560 you can expect from me, here's what I will do 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.440 if this happens. Here's what I will not do for you. 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.040 And that's incredibly useful information for people to have, right, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.800 because then they can make a decision based on what 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.640 you're telling them, right. And so I think that connects 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.400 to people pleasing in the sense of are you really 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.520 lying to people if you tell them you can meet 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.839 with them, if you tell them you which is telling 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.800 them you have energy for them, you know? And so 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.640 how was that not honest and upfront and not a 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.040 good way to represent yourself. 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.520 What's coming up for me is a line that I 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.640 heard Glennon Doyle say. She said, be a model, not 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.640 a martyr, And so she particularly says it in relation 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.920 to motherhood because moms are so often supposed to be 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.480 selfless or feel the need to do for everybody else 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.920 before themselves. But it's like, if you give and give 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.360 and give, is that really the model that you want 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.760 your children to see, etc. And oftentimes that's that's just 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.520 not the case. I was trying to think of examples 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.120 of people pleasing. I think avoiding conflict falls in there, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.560 like not giving somebody your opinion to keep the peace. 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.400 Taking on extra work so like volunteering for tasks or 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.920 agreeing to do stuff that you really don't have time for. 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.239 Does a emotional labor fall into this category. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.040 Absolutely, that's a way to be over involved with people 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:34.160 as to assume they can't manage their their own distress, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.160 which they can to a degree. But yeah, I love 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.920 those examples because I'm always thinking about what am I 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:45.160 teaching the other person, the system, the workplace by how 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:49.120 I respond. Right, If you're always people pleasing or I 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:53.960 use word overfunctioning, right, then the system reorients itself around that. 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.160 Right there is it is going to operate under the 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:00.360 assumption that you've got it. And so if you start 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.520 to manage yourself differently, you are teaching you know, your partner, 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:09.080 the workplace, your friends that you're beginning to operate in 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.520 a different way and they can adjust accordingly and so, 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.280 but you have to give people those chances to adjust. 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.480 If you're always tiptoeing around them, they never get the 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.720 practice of handling you, which maybe they can, maybe they'll 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.480 surprise you right right, But we keep teaching them that 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.880 the opposite is true, that they can expect us to 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.600 take on a lot, And why wouldn't they do that 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:33.560 if they know you're going to pick it up. It 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:35.960 makes total sense that they would function that way. So 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.040 you have to ask, what's my part in all this? 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:39.040 If you're taking it on. 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.480 We're taking a quick break, but we'll be right back 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.200 with doctor Kathleen Smith. 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.400 And we're back. What is the toll of people pleasing? 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.720 A couple of things. I think First, your own sensitivity 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:08.840 to disapproval goes up, Like it's that much harder to 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.120 stand in the face of somebody being upset with you, 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.160 or somebody not giving you praise or attention. You get 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.640 more sensitive to it. I think also you more quickly 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:23.920 abandon your own beliefs and boundaries and ideas just to 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.040 kind of please the other. And I think those two 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.880 things can happen very very quickly. And I also think 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.240 you've just got the physical and the emotional burnout as well. 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.240 You might just get sick or you know, or very 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.040 depressed or something else, because if you can't consciously step back, 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.280 your body will kind of make you have to do it. 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.760 I'd like to understand some of the reasons why people 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.480 become people pleasers, and you talk a lot about the 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.840 Bowen theory in your book. Can you explain what the 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.480 Bowen theory is and how it helps us understand why 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.040 we can become people pleasers? 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.480 Sure, so, I'll give you the short version. This guy 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.880 named Murray Bowen. He was a psychiatrist. He was sort 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.760 of the father of family therapy. Family therapy was really 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.640 big in like the sixties, seventies, eighties, and he had 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:14.480 this really interesting idea that humans, we do not think 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:19.119 that we're animals, like we somehow see ourselves as the 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:23.080 exception to all the rules that govern the natural world, 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.800 like how does an ant colony operate? How does a 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.880 flock of birds operate? Or a troop of chimpanzees? Right, 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.399 But humans are social creatures, and so we have to 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.359 get things done as a group and we also have 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.920 to manage tension as a group. Right. When people talk 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.159 about anxiety, they tend to talk about the diagnosis what 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.280 the individual does with it. But groups have anxiety and 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.400 tension too. Bowen had this idea, there are all these 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.080 ways that we recruit other humans and vice versa to 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.879 keep things calm in so you have to look to 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:01.320 your relationships too to see sort of how you predictably function. 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.879 Because we get our systems, our families, your friend group, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.480 we get stuck in these patterns of operating that take 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.960 a toll, right, They keep things chugging along until the 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.800 wheels sort of fall off the wagon. And so his 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.120 big thing was, like, how do I stay in relationship 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.520 with all these other humans without getting stuck in these 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:28.080 very predictable patterns that you also see in the natural 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.240 world too, other animals doing some of these things because 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.800 they're living creatures and people pleasing is one. It's not 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.359 one of the concepts in the theory, but this idea 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.440 that you kind of overfunction for somebody or over accommodate them, 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.000 and you lose a little bit of yourself in the process. Ye, 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.920 that's one of the things we do, and it's so common. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.480 Well, no, that's fascinating because that's at the heart of 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.680 everything you're talking about in your book. And I love 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.679 the idea of not just thinking what's wrong with me, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.600 but looking at the systems in place, because oftentimes we're 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.960 just a product of those systems, and it's those that 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.960 we have to question. How does birth order play into 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:05.280 all this? 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.000 Yeah, so Bowen refers to it as sibling position, But 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.720 same thing, right we all you know, obviously there are exceptions. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.200 Not everybody who's an oldest child is going to function 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.480 like a stereotypical oldest child. Maybe it's the next one. 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.600 But for a lot of us, I'm an only child, 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.399 so you can take a wild guess about how I function. 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:27.800 I hated group projects in high school. I'm not a 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.920 great team player. I just want to be left alone 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.320 most of the time. Right, And there are assets to 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.959 our sibling position, and then there are deficits, right, right, 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.560 And so part of like growing up is like how 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.320 do I move around the field a little bit and 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.159 get comfortable in other positions? You know, if I'm always 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.520 the one who's very comfortable being the leader, directing everybody 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.439 taking it all on, can I look for opportunities to 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.879 just be a participant in something, to let my friends 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.600 figure out what restaurant we're going to eat at, because 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:02.920 which is very difficult to do if you're the one 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.600 who usually kind of rounds everybody up, right, right, And 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.920 so what I love about the theories just every day 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:10.200 is an opportunity to see how you get a little 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.560 bit more flexible and move a little bit outside of 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.840 whatever is typical for you. Whether that's people pleasing, whether 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:22.440 that's avoiding everybody, whether that's letting other people do everything 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:24.840 for you. We all have our challenges. 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:29.359 So for people listening who may be feeling like, okay, 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.600 some of this resonates with me, maybe some of this doesn't. 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.760 What are the signs that we are people pleasing? 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.199 I think pick a day, go throughout your day and 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:46.440 notice everything you do that is an adjustment to the other. Right, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:51.600 Like if your spouse or your partner asks you to 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.360 do something that you know they can do for themselves, 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.440