Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright Side, we're
Speaker 1: diving into a topic that's so real for so many
Speaker 1: of us, people pleasing. Okay, so joining us is licensed therapist,
Speaker 1: relationship expert, and author doctor Kathleen Smith.
Speaker 2: She's here to show us how.
Speaker 1: To break free from the people pleasing trap and take
Speaker 1: control of our lives. And get this, She's revealing a
Speaker 1: surprising reason you might be a people pleaser. It could
Speaker 1: have something to do with whether you're the oldest or
Speaker 1: youngest sibling.
Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, January twenty second.
Speaker 1: I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the
Speaker 1: bright Side from Hello Sunshine. Okay, listen, I don't like
Speaker 1: to exaggerate, but today's show could literally change your life.
Speaker 1: We are talking people pleasing. We're talking about how you
Speaker 1: can recognize it when you're doing it, why certain people
Speaker 1: are drawn to it, and truly what you can do
Speaker 1: starting today to stop the people pleasing cycles. Siman, do
Speaker 1: you feel like you have any bits of the disease
Speaker 1: to please?
Speaker 2: For sure?
Speaker 3: I think it's impossible to be a human being and
Speaker 3: not have this desire to people please. When I think
Speaker 3: about my twenties, I feel like I was a people
Speaker 3: pleaser my entire twenties. I straightened my hair to please people.
Speaker 3: I wore its height, uncomfortable clothing to please and also
Speaker 3: appease the male gaze. I even chose my career path
Speaker 3: based on stability, and I feel like that's kind of
Speaker 3: people pleasing society at large in a way.
Speaker 2: And then even getting married.
Speaker 3: At twenty three years old was a people pleasing move
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. There's a lot of pressure
Speaker 3: to get married from such a young age. If you
Speaker 3: grew up in the Christian Church, you kind of know
Speaker 3: what I'm talking about. And I look back and I'm like,
Speaker 3: who needs to get married at twenty three? Like, no one,
Speaker 3: that's just crazy.
Speaker 2: Wait, what do you mean about your job?
Speaker 3: I think I definitely entertained other options, but I landed
Speaker 3: on journalism. I landed on this one because I felt
Speaker 3: like it was going to be the most stable.
Speaker 2: That's something I've never heard anybody say media, it would
Speaker 2: be the most stable. What was the other option? Circa Sole?
Speaker 3: I wish that sounds great. I would love to I
Speaker 3: would love to be a Sarca Sole performer. Maybe it's
Speaker 3: not too late for me. How about you? How where
Speaker 3: are you at with people pleasing right now?
Speaker 1: I actually feel like I'm at a really good place
Speaker 1: with it right now. But I couldn't have said that
Speaker 1: years ago. I actually think therapy really helped me because
Speaker 1: one of the things about people pleasing is that, in short,
Speaker 1: it's really about avoiding conflict, right, And so a lot
Speaker 1: of this is about deep rooted habits that are hard
Speaker 1: to change. But the good news is that a lot
Speaker 1: of it is just about recognizing it, and so is
Speaker 1: so many great therapists say just noticing is helpful in
Speaker 1: taking steps towards change, and I think therapy helped me
Speaker 1: notice things like I so feel aligned with what you
Speaker 1: said about your twenties.
Speaker 2: I think age has helped me with people pleasing.
Speaker 1: I remember dating this guy when I was twenty one
Speaker 1: and he was a little older than me, and because
Speaker 1: he was older, I thought everything he liked was just
Speaker 1: the coolest.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, been there.
Speaker 1: Right, And so he told me about one of his
Speaker 1: favorite albums, and I went home. I pretended I knew
Speaker 1: what he was talking about, and then I went home
Speaker 1: and binged the whole album and googled cultural criticism about it,
Speaker 1: so I could like really be in the know.
Speaker 2: And I think when I got into the.
Speaker 1: Corporate world or the news business, like that morphed into
Speaker 1: smiling or laughing at terrible jokes in the office. Or
Speaker 1: I've had bosses say like really uncomfortable things to me
Speaker 1: and I just kind of brushed them off because I
Speaker 1: didn't want to make things awkward.
Speaker 2: For sure. And I think, do you consider that people pleasing?
Speaker 4: Absolutely? I think it's just.
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, it's like, whether it's
Speaker 3: people pleasing or whether it's adhering to cultural norms, it's
Speaker 3: still the same type of behavior. You know, it's not
Speaker 3: wanting to rock the boat. And I agree it's something
Speaker 3: that i've I think it's been easier to shake as
Speaker 3: I get older.
Speaker 1: Okay, so if you're listening and you're thinking, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm a people pleaser, let me throw a
Speaker 1: few things out at you. If you've ever helped a
Speaker 1: stranger move furniture at Ikea, you don't work there, but
Speaker 1: you carried that flat packed shelf like you were getting paid,
Speaker 1: people pleaser? Okay, have you ever over shared at a
Speaker 1: networking event? You let someone's casual? How are you turn
Speaker 1: into a ten minute monologue about your life? Because you
Speaker 1: didn't want to seem rude. People pleasing. How about agreeing
Speaker 1: to babysit pets you're afraid of? You ever said I'd
Speaker 1: love to watch your snake? Just kidding, But maybe you've
Speaker 1: watched somebody's dog or cat and you don't really want to.
Speaker 1: That is people pleasing. So we are going to dive
Speaker 1: into it today.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm really hoping our guest today has the solutions,
Speaker 3: and I really believe she will. And here's why. Doctor
Speaker 3: Kathleen Smith is an expert in relationship systems and the
Speaker 3: author of the books True to You and Everything Isn't Terrible.
Speaker 3: She's also the woman behind a very popular newsletter called
Speaker 3: The Anxious Overachiever, which provides relationship tools for those of
Speaker 3: us who are constantly on the verge of burnout. Danielle,
Speaker 3: I'm bummed that I missed this conversation, but I'm really
Speaker 3: excited to hear this one.
Speaker 2: I know I'm bummed you missed it too.
Speaker 1: We missed you, but I am excited to have Kathleen
Speaker 1: Smith here with us today to help us break our
Speaker 1: people pleasing habits, or at least notice them. Here's my
Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Kathleen Smith, Doctor Smith, Welcome to the
Speaker 1: bright side.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Am I talking to.
Speaker 1: A people pleaser, a recovering people pleaser. Where are you
Speaker 1: at on the spectrum of the disease to please?
Speaker 4: I am such a good student of other people and
Speaker 4: what makes them happy, but a tremendous superpower and a
Speaker 4: terrible liability.
Speaker 1: Also, I'll admit to you, I'm in the process of
Speaker 1: recovering from people pleasing. I'll never forget when I heard
Speaker 1: Oprah talk about it for the very first time. She
Speaker 1: called it the disease to please, and I remember her
Speaker 1: giving an example of what it was. And her example
Speaker 1: was basically that someone would call her and ask her
Speaker 1: for a favor, and she thought, because she had the
Speaker 1: means or the opportunity to help, that she had to help.
Speaker 2: And she didn't want to let somebody down.
Speaker 1: And I resonated with it so much, and I thought,
Speaker 1: oh man, maybe I have this.
Speaker 2: Does it affect almost the whole population?
Speaker 4: It does? I mean, obviously it varies, but it is
Speaker 4: the most human thing about us, because we're built to
Speaker 4: cooperate and get along with each other. That's why we
Speaker 4: beat out the Neanderthals and so many other species is
Speaker 4: because we are tuned in to what pleases people, and
Speaker 4: you shouldn't beat yourself up about what's the most human
Speaker 4: thing about you?
Speaker 1: I think, I think to start the conversation off, I'd
Speaker 1: love to know what the actual definition of people pleasing is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the definition I use is accommodating to keep
Speaker 4: things calm, not necessarily happy, but just how do you
Speaker 4: adjust how you react to people right in a way
Speaker 4: that brings the tension down because we are so allergic
Speaker 4: to that tension and we will contort in any number
Speaker 4: of ways to avoid it. And so that's all I
Speaker 4: think of people pleasing.
Speaker 1: When you talk about that tension, all I think about
Speaker 1: is childhood because to me, the origins of people pleasing
Speaker 1: seems like it starts so young.
Speaker 2: Is that what your research found?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: I mean you kids pick it up between adults, between parents, right,
Speaker 4: and they do things to mediate right. They pick it
Speaker 4: up between their siblings. They learn what pleases the teacher
Speaker 4: and makes the teacher happy.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: I was definitely a teacher's pet. I had some that
Speaker 4: going on.
Speaker 2: Same.
Speaker 4: All we encounter other humans and we learn calms things
Speaker 4: down very quickly, and then we use that skill into adulthood.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the word cooperation.
Speaker 1: I'm so curious what the line is between pleasing and cooperation,
Speaker 1: because I guess that's a question I ask myself a lot,
Speaker 1: because I do want to be a good friend. I
Speaker 1: do want to be a good family member, a good
Speaker 1: community member, and sometimes that requires doing things, showing up
Speaker 1: to things that you don't necessarily want to do, but
Speaker 1: it's really beneficial to the relationship. You also don't want
Speaker 1: to lose yourself in the process. How do you describe
Speaker 1: that line? Yeah, I think I loved your description.
Speaker 4: Just now. That's how I think about the biggest dilemma
Speaker 4: of being human. You have to go along with the group.
Speaker 4: Sometimes you can't have it your own way all the time.
Speaker 4: And yet there are moments where you have to say,
Speaker 4: I don't think that way or I cannot do that
Speaker 4: for you, right, And so every day is a negotiation
Speaker 4: between do I shift and kind of go with the group,
Speaker 4: or do I I make a move out on my own.
Speaker 4: And I think the biggest thing to me is it's like,
Speaker 4: is it coming out of your best thinking or is
Speaker 4: it coming out of the anxiety or the tension?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: Are you just trying to keep things calm as quickly
Speaker 4: as possible and make people happy, or can you kind
Speaker 4: of shift out of that a little bit?
Speaker 1: That's interesting, So because I love thinking about like questions
Speaker 1: to ask yourself when you feel this arise and it's
Speaker 1: am I doing this to keep the peace? Or am
Speaker 1: I doing this because it feels like it's in line
Speaker 1: with my values?
Speaker 2: Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the sort of the how do I make decisions?
Speaker 4: What's going on when I when I make a decision
Speaker 4: or when I react to something. How much of the
Speaker 4: front part of my brain is involved in that process?
Speaker 4: And how much is not right? Because most of the
Speaker 4: time we're on autopilot, we're just reacting, and that's okay.
Speaker 4: But if you can find one or two moments in
Speaker 4: a day where you can really stop and say, what
Speaker 4: do I think is the best way forward?
Speaker 1: Here?
Speaker 4: You see the opportunities maybe to kind of not people
Speaker 4: please or test out the theory that maybe you won't
Speaker 4: die if you say no to but to somebody, which
Speaker 4: your body can really trick you into believing.
Speaker 1: The first thing that comes up for me is invitations
Speaker 1: or coffee meetings. That's like what I'm currently struggling with
Speaker 1: right now. I'm a person who really values connection. It's
Speaker 1: at the heart of my job, my personal value system.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, I'm so pulled, like stretched
Speaker 1: too thin, exhausted, can't even if I want to attend
Speaker 1: all the things or meet all the people, can't do it.
Speaker 1: What are examples that come up in your work all
Speaker 1: the time? I know that's so specific to me. I'm
Speaker 1: curious about other examples that happens with me too.
Speaker 4: I get emails from people who say, can you look
Speaker 4: at this writing I'm doing? Or can you talk to
Speaker 4: me about your profession?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: All these great emails from college students I get, and
Speaker 4: I have to think about whether I say yes or no? Right,
Speaker 4: And I think that just goes back to being honest
Speaker 4: with people, you know, whether that's saying something like you
Speaker 4: will not get the best version of me if I
Speaker 4: meet with you right now, so I'm going to have
Speaker 4: to say no. And how is giving people your thinking
Speaker 4: useful for them? They might not like it, right, but
Speaker 4: it's helpful. Yeah, And it's a great workout for you too.
Speaker 4: I think also as a therapist, you know, I have
Speaker 4: to really think about how many hours a day can
Speaker 4: I really be useful to people, And if I try
Speaker 4: and fit in another person, is that really helping them
Speaker 4: or is that me just trying to avoid their upsetness
Speaker 4: in the moment?
Speaker 1: Right, So you hit on something that I'm so curious about,
Speaker 1: because when we think of people pleasing, we think of selflessness.
Speaker 1: I think that's like one of the first things that
Speaker 1: comes up. But I'm almost wondering if it's less about
Speaker 1: selflessness and more about self protection, because are you really
Speaker 1: doing somebody any favors? Are you giving of yourself if
Speaker 1: you're not showing up in the best way or you
Speaker 1: don't actually want to be there.
Speaker 4: I think that's such a great question, and I sort
Speaker 4: of phrase it as am I being helpful? Or am
Speaker 4: I managing my own stress? And that can be a
Speaker 4: form of self protection certainly, but I think ninety percent
Speaker 4: of the time it's about dismanaging the stress of having
Speaker 4: to be a person who has to make decisions, you know,
Speaker 4: And that can be helpful because then you can realize, no,
Speaker 4: it's not about letting somebody down. It's about recognizing that
Speaker 4: I have to do something else with my stress. Then
Speaker 4: just say yes to everybody that that's ultimately not effective
Speaker 4: way to manage it over the long haul.
Speaker 1: What's the overlap here between people pleasing in boundaries?
Speaker 4: People get so focused on how a boundary is received,
Speaker 4: and I think the same thing can happen with people
Speaker 4: pleasing right. The focus is all on the other and
Speaker 4: how they're going to react. And what I challenge people
Speaker 4: to do is, can you shift the focus back to yourself?
Speaker 4: And to me? A boundary is telling somebody, here's what
Speaker 4: you can expect from me, here's what I will do
Speaker 4: if this happens. Here's what I will not do for you.
Speaker 4: And that's incredibly useful information for people to have, right,
Speaker 4: because then they can make a decision based on what
Speaker 4: you're telling them, right. And so I think that connects
Speaker 4: to people pleasing in the sense of are you really
Speaker 4: lying to people if you tell them you can meet
Speaker 4: with them, if you tell them you which is telling
Speaker 4: them you have energy for them, you know? And so
Speaker 4: how was that not honest and upfront and not a
Speaker 4: good way to represent yourself.
Speaker 1: What's coming up for me is a line that I
Speaker 1: heard Glennon Doyle say. She said, be a model, not
Speaker 1: a martyr, And so she particularly says it in relation
Speaker 1: to motherhood because moms are so often supposed to be
Speaker 1: selfless or feel the need to do for everybody else
Speaker 1: before themselves. But it's like, if you give and give
Speaker 1: and give, is that really the model that you want
Speaker 1: your children to see, etc. And oftentimes that's that's just
Speaker 1: not the case. I was trying to think of examples
Speaker 1: of people pleasing. I think avoiding conflict falls in there,
Speaker 1: like not giving somebody your opinion to keep the peace.
Speaker 1: Taking on extra work so like volunteering for tasks or
Speaker 1: agreeing to do stuff that you really don't have time for.
Speaker 2: Does a emotional labor fall into this category.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, that's a way to be over involved with people
Speaker 4: as to assume they can't manage their their own distress,
Speaker 4: which they can to a degree. But yeah, I love
Speaker 4: those examples because I'm always thinking about what am I
Speaker 4: teaching the other person, the system, the workplace by how
Speaker 4: I respond. Right, If you're always people pleasing or I
Speaker 4: use word overfunctioning, right, then the system reorients itself around that.
Speaker 4: Right there is it is going to operate under the
Speaker 4: assumption that you've got it. And so if you start
Speaker 4: to manage yourself differently, you are teaching you know, your partner,
Speaker 4: the workplace, your friends that you're beginning to operate in
Speaker 4: a different way and they can adjust accordingly and so,
Speaker 4: but you have to give people those chances to adjust.
Speaker 4: If you're always tiptoeing around them, they never get the
Speaker 4: practice of handling you, which maybe they can, maybe they'll
Speaker 4: surprise you right right, But we keep teaching them that
Speaker 4: the opposite is true, that they can expect us to
Speaker 4: take on a lot, And why wouldn't they do that
Speaker 4: if they know you're going to pick it up. It
Speaker 4: makes total sense that they would function that way. So
Speaker 4: you have to ask, what's my part in all this?
Speaker 4: If you're taking it on.
Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break, but we'll be right back
Speaker 1: with doctor Kathleen Smith.
Speaker 2: And we're back. What is the toll of people pleasing?
Speaker 4: A couple of things. I think First, your own sensitivity
Speaker 4: to disapproval goes up, Like it's that much harder to
Speaker 4: stand in the face of somebody being upset with you,
Speaker 4: or somebody not giving you praise or attention. You get
Speaker 4: more sensitive to it. I think also you more quickly
Speaker 4: abandon your own beliefs and boundaries and ideas just to
Speaker 4: kind of please the other. And I think those two
Speaker 4: things can happen very very quickly. And I also think
Speaker 4: you've just got the physical and the emotional burnout as well.
Speaker 4: You might just get sick or you know, or very
Speaker 4: depressed or something else, because if you can't consciously step back,
Speaker 4: your body will kind of make you have to do it.
Speaker 1: I'd like to understand some of the reasons why people
Speaker 1: become people pleasers, and you talk a lot about the
Speaker 1: Bowen theory in your book. Can you explain what the
Speaker 1: Bowen theory is and how it helps us understand why
Speaker 1: we can become people pleasers?
Speaker 4: Sure, so, I'll give you the short version. This guy
Speaker 4: named Murray Bowen. He was a psychiatrist. He was sort
Speaker 4: of the father of family therapy. Family therapy was really
Speaker 4: big in like the sixties, seventies, eighties, and he had
Speaker 4: this really interesting idea that humans, we do not think
Speaker 4: that we're animals, like we somehow see ourselves as the
Speaker 4: exception to all the rules that govern the natural world,
Speaker 4: like how does an ant colony operate? How does a
Speaker 4: flock of birds operate? Or a troop of chimpanzees? Right,
Speaker 4: But humans are social creatures, and so we have to
Speaker 4: get things done as a group and we also have
Speaker 4: to manage tension as a group. Right. When people talk
Speaker 4: about anxiety, they tend to talk about the diagnosis what
Speaker 4: the individual does with it. But groups have anxiety and
Speaker 4: tension too. Bowen had this idea, there are all these
Speaker 4: ways that we recruit other humans and vice versa to
Speaker 4: keep things calm in so you have to look to
Speaker 4: your relationships too to see sort of how you predictably function.
Speaker 4: Because we get our systems, our families, your friend group,
Speaker 4: we get stuck in these patterns of operating that take
Speaker 4: a toll, right, They keep things chugging along until the
Speaker 4: wheels sort of fall off the wagon. And so his
Speaker 4: big thing was, like, how do I stay in relationship
Speaker 4: with all these other humans without getting stuck in these
Speaker 4: very predictable patterns that you also see in the natural
Speaker 4: world too, other animals doing some of these things because
Speaker 4: they're living creatures and people pleasing is one. It's not
Speaker 4: one of the concepts in the theory, but this idea
Speaker 4: that you kind of overfunction for somebody or over accommodate them,
Speaker 4: and you lose a little bit of yourself in the process. Ye,
Speaker 4: that's one of the things we do, and it's so common.
Speaker 1: Well, no, that's fascinating because that's at the heart of
Speaker 1: everything you're talking about in your book. And I love
Speaker 1: the idea of not just thinking what's wrong with me,
Speaker 1: but looking at the systems in place, because oftentimes we're
Speaker 1: just a product of those systems, and it's those that
Speaker 1: we have to question. How does birth order play into
Speaker 1: all this?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Bowen refers to it as sibling position, But
Speaker 4: same thing, right we all you know, obviously there are exceptions.
Speaker 4: Not everybody who's an oldest child is going to function
Speaker 4: like a stereotypical oldest child. Maybe it's the next one.
Speaker 4: But for a lot of us, I'm an only child,
Speaker 4: so you can take a wild guess about how I function.
Speaker 4: I hated group projects in high school. I'm not a
Speaker 4: great team player. I just want to be left alone
Speaker 4: most of the time. Right, And there are assets to
Speaker 4: our sibling position, and then there are deficits, right, right,
Speaker 4: And so part of like growing up is like how
Speaker 4: do I move around the field a little bit and
Speaker 4: get comfortable in other positions? You know, if I'm always
Speaker 4: the one who's very comfortable being the leader, directing everybody
Speaker 4: taking it all on, can I look for opportunities to
Speaker 4: just be a participant in something, to let my friends
Speaker 4: figure out what restaurant we're going to eat at, because
Speaker 4: which is very difficult to do if you're the one
Speaker 4: who usually kind of rounds everybody up, right, right, And
Speaker 4: so what I love about the theories just every day
Speaker 4: is an opportunity to see how you get a little
Speaker 4: bit more flexible and move a little bit outside of
Speaker 4: whatever is typical for you. Whether that's people pleasing, whether
Speaker 4: that's avoiding everybody, whether that's letting other people do everything
Speaker 4: for you. We all have our challenges.
Speaker 1: So for people listening who may be feeling like, okay,
Speaker 1: some of this resonates with me, maybe some of this doesn't.
Speaker 2: What are the signs that we are people pleasing?
Speaker 4: I think pick a day, go throughout your day and
Speaker 4: notice everything you do that is an adjustment to the other. Right,
Speaker 4: Like if your spouse or your partner asks you to
Speaker 4: do something that you know they can do for themselves,
Speaker 4: they're just being a little lazy. Can you think about
Speaker 4: whether you want to do that or not, or whether
Speaker 4: you want to say, you know what, I'm not going
Speaker 4: to do that right now, why don't you go get it?
Speaker 4: Or even like writing no worries in an email. This
Speaker 4: is something I do all the time?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: Is it really that? Isn't really your job to let
Speaker 4: somebody know you're not upset with them, or like, can
Speaker 4: you just end the email and then they can manage
Speaker 4: their own feelings about whatever is? You know, just those
Speaker 4: small ways that we are constantly monitoring and trying to
Speaker 4: manage everybody else's reactions to us, because you'll find so
Speaker 4: many if you just take a day and so have
Speaker 4: those goggles on.
Speaker 2: It's true, you know.
Speaker 1: I think one of the great distinctions you make in
Speaker 1: this book is the difference between being relationship oriented and
Speaker 1: valuing relationships.
Speaker 2: Can you walk us through that difference?
Speaker 4: Being relationship oriented is being always focused on trying to
Speaker 4: control how others are reacting to you. So, how much
Speaker 4: energy are you putting into getting attention, approval, praise from others?
Speaker 4: How much are you trying to be what you think
Speaker 4: people want you to be? How much are you trying
Speaker 4: to get other people to be what you want them
Speaker 4: to be? It can go both ways, right, how much
Speaker 4: are you Let's say you're in the shower, you're trying
Speaker 4: to fall asleep at night, you're on your way home
Speaker 4: from work. Are you replaying conversations wondering if people find
Speaker 4: you annoying or what you said was ridiculous? You know
Speaker 4: we all do this to some degree, But can you
Speaker 4: shift that and say, what do I actually think? How
Speaker 4: do I think that meeting went. Did I do a
Speaker 4: good job? What's my own evaluation of myself? What do
Speaker 4: I think is an important way to spend my day?
Speaker 4: How should I live my life irrespective of what this
Speaker 4: influencer says or what my parents say. Right? Any more
Speaker 4: self you can add into it, you are probably going
Speaker 4: to have better relationships with people because all of that
Speaker 4: anxiety is not being directed at them while you're anxiously
Speaker 4: monitoring how they're taking you in Right, it's hard for
Speaker 4: a relationship to flourish when people are so focused on
Speaker 4: each other like that. So it's not about not caring
Speaker 4: about others or about what they think. It's about dialing
Speaker 4: down the intensity a little bit so you can actually
Speaker 4: get to know somebody.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said the word anxiety, because that
Speaker 1: really seems like it's at the core of a lot
Speaker 1: of people pleasing As a therapist, what are some productive
Speaker 1: ways you've seen people manage their anxiety within these relationships.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think really looking for opportunities to test out
Speaker 4: whether something is actually threatening or not. Of course, there
Speaker 4: are situations in life where situations that are threatening you
Speaker 4: should get away from certain people, right, But where are
Speaker 4: the relationships that are probably going to survive and be Okay?
Speaker 4: If you say no, I can't do that, or I
Speaker 4: think about this differently, I don't agree, right, And so
Speaker 4: over time your brain and your body learn to reevaluate
Speaker 4: how scary, how threatening a situation is. So I think
Speaker 4: the people who can pick and choose and say, Okay,
Speaker 4: here's where I'm going to do the scary thing today,
Speaker 4: let's evaluate, let's see and then lo and behold like
Speaker 4: their friend could totally handle it, right, or their boss
Speaker 4: wasn't upset that they were they needed to go home
Speaker 4: and they couldn't do that one more task at the
Speaker 4: end of the day. Right, Most relationships will survive and
Speaker 4: actually do better. But you have to be able to
Speaker 4: test out that reality and prove that the fear is
Speaker 4: is not real, it's just imagined.
Speaker 1: What are some signs that the relationship is doing better?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think if you're focusing and ruminating less about
Speaker 4: what the other person is thinking, and you're just able
Speaker 4: to enjoy yourself. You're able to talk about what's interesting
Speaker 4: to you. You're able to be more interested in the
Speaker 4: other person, that genuine interest that's different than the anxious monitoring.
Speaker 4: I think that's a sign that things are calming down
Speaker 4: a little bit and you can kind of be more
Speaker 4: more present as yourself.
Speaker 1: As I'm hearing you share that, I'm thinking, Oh, so
Speaker 1: much of this is a muscle. Some of this is
Speaker 1: a mindset, But I think the more you practice not
Speaker 1: being worried about being liked, the easier it gets.
Speaker 2: How much of this is correlated to age.
Speaker 4: I think it can kind of work both ways because people, Yes,
Speaker 4: there is this idea of people sort of just caring
Speaker 4: less about what other people think as they get older,
Speaker 4: But people also can kind of get stuck or their
Speaker 4: social circles can also shrink as they get older, right,
Speaker 4: And so it can work a little bit both ways.
Speaker 2: Interesting, but I do.
Speaker 4: Think that our brains have the advantage when we're older.
Speaker 4: There's all this interesting research about how teenagers literally cannot
Speaker 4: distinguish between what they think about themselves and what other
Speaker 4: people think about them if you ask them those two
Speaker 4: different questions. The brain scans show up exactly the same.
Speaker 4: So these poor kids, it's really hard for them because
Speaker 4: how they're being perceived is almost literally how they see themselves. Right,
Speaker 4: But as we get older, that kind of separates a
Speaker 4: little bit, and so to me, that's an increct correct.
Speaker 4: I feel bad for the teenagers, but you do start
Speaker 4: to kind of see the difference as you get older,
Speaker 4: but you have to test it out.
Speaker 1: It's time for another short break, but we'll be right
Speaker 1: back to our conversation with doctor Kathleen Smith. Stay with us,
Speaker 1: and we're back to Wellness Wednesday with doctor Kathleen Smith.
Speaker 2: You do so many interviews and.
Speaker 1: You're just incredibly accomplished, particularly on this topic. What's a
Speaker 1: part of this that people don't ask about enough?
Speaker 4: I think that people don't make the connection to the
Speaker 4: natural world. I mentioned that earlier with Bowen and looking
Speaker 4: at other animals, and one of the examples I given
Speaker 4: in the book is just how creatures are hierarchical. Right,
Speaker 4: They look to higher ranking like elephants have a very
Speaker 4: rigid hierarchy, right. Chimpanzees do too, right, And there's this
Speaker 4: famous research study where these researchers trained higher ranking chimps
Speaker 4: in the troop to pick carrots instead of grapes as
Speaker 4: a snack, which is not what they like. They like grapes.
Speaker 4: I do too, I'd prefer that to a carrot, right,
Speaker 4: And all the lower ranking chips are watching them like
Speaker 4: what's going on? Why are they eating that carrot?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: And then when it was their turn, they pick the
Speaker 4: carrot also because they defer to the higher ranking members
Speaker 4: of the troop.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: And so that's just such a helpful example for me
Speaker 4: because it helps me not be so hard on myself
Speaker 4: when I am focused on what pleases my superior What
Speaker 4: are these more famous people doing? Right? Because we can
Speaker 4: say where we have certain beliefs, you can say I
Speaker 4: don't subscribe to diet culture, but then your favorite celebrity
Speaker 4: talks about something that they're doing and you're like, oh,
Speaker 4: I need to go go do that, right, It's so
Speaker 4: automatic for us. Yeah, And so I think just looking
Speaker 4: at other examples in nature, like as humans, we are
Speaker 4: unique in some ways but and others not so much.
Speaker 4: And how does cutting yourself a little bit of slack
Speaker 4: when you shift into people pleasing or worrying too much
Speaker 4: about what other people think of you. How do you
Speaker 4: just remind yourself, Oh, yeah, I'm a social creature. That's
Speaker 4: like telling me to stop doing that is like telling
Speaker 4: me not to breathe. Right, You can adjust how much,
Speaker 4: but it's always going to be there to some degree,
Speaker 4: and that's okay, And so I think that that's helpful
Speaker 4: for people to hear because the trend in pop psychologies
Speaker 4: don't do that. Why do you care so much what
Speaker 4: other people think of you? As if that's like a
Speaker 4: switch you can turn off, but it isn't.
Speaker 1: If you grew up in a family hierarchy where the
Speaker 1: disease to please or people pleasing is prevalent, what's something
Speaker 1: that you can do today to start veering outside of it?
Speaker 1: So it's like a subtle move. What's the question to
Speaker 1: ask yourself today?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Where is your energy going into managing others?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 4: Women in particular can be bad about checking in with
Speaker 4: people to make sure they're not upset with even though
Speaker 4: there's no evidence that they are right, And that's, I
Speaker 4: guess a nice thing. But how much energy do you
Speaker 4: put into that that doesn't give other people the responsibility
Speaker 4: of letting you know if they're upset with you? Right,
Speaker 4: which is you know, kind of on them. I call
Speaker 4: it my tentacles. I'm like, where are my tentacles going
Speaker 4: to go out and try and manage other people's lives
Speaker 4: reactions to me, making sure they're okay with me, making
Speaker 4: sure they don't think I'm a jerk or whatever. And
Speaker 4: can I reel those back in or pull those back
Speaker 4: in and put my energy elsewhere? Yeah, and so I
Speaker 4: think of that sort of the checking in with the
Speaker 4: other The reassurance is it asking your partner, are you
Speaker 4: sure you're okay with me? You're sure you're not mad?
Speaker 4: We're good? Right? How much of that do we do?
Speaker 4: I think those are just kind of the best, small,
Speaker 4: subtle ways to start, because then you have to eat
Speaker 4: the distress or do something else with it. Right, then
Speaker 4: get the other person to manage it for you.
Speaker 1: For anyone who's identifying with this and is looking for
Speaker 1: more guidance, you write a really popular newsletter. Where can
Speaker 1: listeners find your newsletter for more advice?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's on substack. It's called The Anxious Overachiever. You
Speaker 4: can look there or my website is. Kathleen Smith writes,
Speaker 4: I consider myself an anxious overachiever. Maybe one day I'll
Speaker 4: be an anxious achiever or a less anxious achiever but
Speaker 4: still working on it. So yeah, I write about all
Speaker 4: this stuff every week.
Speaker 2: Over there, Kathleen, this has been so illuminating. Thank you.
Speaker 4: Oh great, it was fun.
Speaker 1: Doctor Kathleen Smith is an author, licensed therapist, and expert
Speaker 1: on relationship systems. She also writes a newsletter called The
Speaker 1: Anxious Overachiever.
Speaker 3: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got another edition
Speaker 3: of shelf Life. Author Maureen gou joins us to talk
Speaker 3: about our new book and Reese's Book Club, winter Yapick Throwback.
Speaker 3: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
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Speaker 3: danielle Robe.
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Speaker 3: See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.