1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright Side, we're 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: diving into a topic that's so real for so many 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: of us, people pleasing. Okay, so joining us is licensed therapist, 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: relationship expert, and author doctor Kathleen Smith. 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 2: She's here to show us how. 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: To break free from the people pleasing trap and take 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: control of our lives. And get this, She's revealing a 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: surprising reason you might be a people pleaser. It could 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: have something to do with whether you're the oldest or 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: youngest sibling. 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, January twenty second. 12 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: bright Side from Hello Sunshine. Okay, listen, I don't like 14 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: to exaggerate, but today's show could literally change your life. 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: We are talking people pleasing. We're talking about how you 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: can recognize it when you're doing it, why certain people 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: are drawn to it, and truly what you can do 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: starting today to stop the people pleasing cycles. Siman, do 19 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: you feel like you have any bits of the disease 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: to please? 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: For sure? 22 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 3: I think it's impossible to be a human being and 23 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: not have this desire to people please. When I think 24 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 3: about my twenties, I feel like I was a people 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: pleaser my entire twenties. I straightened my hair to please people. 26 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 3: I wore its height, uncomfortable clothing to please and also 27 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 3: appease the male gaze. I even chose my career path 28 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: based on stability, and I feel like that's kind of 29 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 3: people pleasing society at large in a way. 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 2: And then even getting married. 31 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 3: At twenty three years old was a people pleasing move 32 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 3: in a lot of ways. There's a lot of pressure 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 3: to get married from such a young age. If you 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: grew up in the Christian Church, you kind of know 35 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: what I'm talking about. And I look back and I'm like, 36 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: who needs to get married at twenty three? Like, no one, 37 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 3: that's just crazy. 38 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: Wait, what do you mean about your job? 39 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: I think I definitely entertained other options, but I landed 40 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: on journalism. I landed on this one because I felt 41 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 3: like it was going to be the most stable. 42 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: That's something I've never heard anybody say media, it would 43 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: be the most stable. What was the other option? Circa Sole? 44 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 3: I wish that sounds great. I would love to I 45 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 3: would love to be a Sarca Sole performer. Maybe it's 46 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 3: not too late for me. How about you? How where 47 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: are you at with people pleasing right now? 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: I actually feel like I'm at a really good place 49 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: with it right now. But I couldn't have said that 50 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: years ago. I actually think therapy really helped me because 51 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: one of the things about people pleasing is that, in short, 52 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: it's really about avoiding conflict, right, And so a lot 53 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: of this is about deep rooted habits that are hard 54 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: to change. But the good news is that a lot 55 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: of it is just about recognizing it, and so is 56 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: so many great therapists say just noticing is helpful in 57 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: taking steps towards change, and I think therapy helped me 58 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: notice things like I so feel aligned with what you 59 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: said about your twenties. 60 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: I think age has helped me with people pleasing. 61 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: I remember dating this guy when I was twenty one 62 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: and he was a little older than me, and because 63 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: he was older, I thought everything he liked was just 64 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: the coolest. 65 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, been there. 66 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: Right, And so he told me about one of his 67 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: favorite albums, and I went home. I pretended I knew 68 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: what he was talking about, and then I went home 69 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: and binged the whole album and googled cultural criticism about it, 70 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: so I could like really be in the know. 71 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: And I think when I got into the. 72 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: Corporate world or the news business, like that morphed into 73 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: smiling or laughing at terrible jokes in the office. Or 74 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: I've had bosses say like really uncomfortable things to me 75 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: and I just kind of brushed them off because I 76 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: didn't want to make things awkward. 77 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: For sure. And I think, do you consider that people pleasing? 78 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 4: Absolutely? I think it's just. 79 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: At the end of the day, it's like, whether it's 80 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 3: people pleasing or whether it's adhering to cultural norms, it's 81 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: still the same type of behavior. You know, it's not 82 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 3: wanting to rock the boat. And I agree it's something 83 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: that i've I think it's been easier to shake as 84 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: I get older. 85 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: Okay, so if you're listening and you're thinking, I don't 86 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: know if I'm a people pleaser, let me throw a 87 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: few things out at you. If you've ever helped a 88 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: stranger move furniture at Ikea, you don't work there, but 89 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: you carried that flat packed shelf like you were getting paid, 90 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: people pleaser? Okay, have you ever over shared at a 91 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: networking event? You let someone's casual? How are you turn 92 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: into a ten minute monologue about your life? Because you 93 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: didn't want to seem rude. People pleasing. How about agreeing 94 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: to babysit pets you're afraid of? You ever said I'd 95 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: love to watch your snake? Just kidding, But maybe you've 96 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: watched somebody's dog or cat and you don't really want to. 97 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: That is people pleasing. So we are going to dive 98 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: into it today. 99 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 3: Well, I'm really hoping our guest today has the solutions, 100 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 3: and I really believe she will. And here's why. Doctor 101 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: Kathleen Smith is an expert in relationship systems and the 102 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: author of the books True to You and Everything Isn't Terrible. 103 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: She's also the woman behind a very popular newsletter called 104 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 3: The Anxious Overachiever, which provides relationship tools for those of 105 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 3: us who are constantly on the verge of burnout. Danielle, 106 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: I'm bummed that I missed this conversation, but I'm really 107 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 3: excited to hear this one. 108 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: I know I'm bummed you missed it too. 109 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: We missed you, but I am excited to have Kathleen 110 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: Smith here with us today to help us break our 111 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: people pleasing habits, or at least notice them. Here's my 112 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Kathleen Smith, Doctor Smith, Welcome to the 113 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: bright side. 114 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. 115 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: Am I talking to. 116 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: A people pleaser, a recovering people pleaser. Where are you 117 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: at on the spectrum of the disease to please? 118 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 4: I am such a good student of other people and 119 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 4: what makes them happy, but a tremendous superpower and a 120 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 4: terrible liability. 121 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: Also, I'll admit to you, I'm in the process of 122 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: recovering from people pleasing. I'll never forget when I heard 123 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: Oprah talk about it for the very first time. She 124 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: called it the disease to please, and I remember her 125 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: giving an example of what it was. And her example 126 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: was basically that someone would call her and ask her 127 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: for a favor, and she thought, because she had the 128 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: means or the opportunity to help, that she had to help. 129 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: And she didn't want to let somebody down. 130 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: And I resonated with it so much, and I thought, 131 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: oh man, maybe I have this. 132 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: Does it affect almost the whole population? 133 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 4: It does? I mean, obviously it varies, but it is 134 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 4: the most human thing about us, because we're built to 135 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 4: cooperate and get along with each other. That's why we 136 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 4: beat out the Neanderthals and so many other species is 137 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 4: because we are tuned in to what pleases people, and 138 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 4: you shouldn't beat yourself up about what's the most human 139 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 4: thing about you? 140 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: I think, I think to start the conversation off, I'd 141 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: love to know what the actual definition of people pleasing is. 142 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the definition I use is accommodating to keep 143 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 4: things calm, not necessarily happy, but just how do you 144 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 4: adjust how you react to people right in a way 145 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 4: that brings the tension down because we are so allergic 146 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 4: to that tension and we will contort in any number 147 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 4: of ways to avoid it. And so that's all I 148 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 4: think of people pleasing. 149 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: When you talk about that tension, all I think about 150 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: is childhood because to me, the origins of people pleasing 151 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: seems like it starts so young. 152 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: Is that what your research found? 153 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: Yes? 154 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 4: I mean you kids pick it up between adults, between parents, right, 155 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 4: and they do things to mediate right. They pick it 156 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 4: up between their siblings. They learn what pleases the teacher 157 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 4: and makes the teacher happy. 158 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 3: Right. 159 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 4: I was definitely a teacher's pet. I had some that 160 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 4: going on. 161 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: Same. 162 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 4: All we encounter other humans and we learn calms things 163 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 4: down very quickly, and then we use that skill into adulthood. 164 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: You mentioned the word cooperation. 165 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: I'm so curious what the line is between pleasing and cooperation, 166 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: because I guess that's a question I ask myself a lot, 167 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: because I do want to be a good friend. I 168 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: do want to be a good family member, a good 169 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: community member, and sometimes that requires doing things, showing up 170 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: to things that you don't necessarily want to do, but 171 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: it's really beneficial to the relationship. You also don't want 172 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: to lose yourself in the process. How do you describe 173 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: that line? Yeah, I think I loved your description. 174 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 4: Just now. That's how I think about the biggest dilemma 175 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 4: of being human. You have to go along with the group. 176 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 4: Sometimes you can't have it your own way all the time. 177 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 4: And yet there are moments where you have to say, 178 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 4: I don't think that way or I cannot do that 179 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 4: for you, right, And so every day is a negotiation 180 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 4: between do I shift and kind of go with the group, 181 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 4: or do I I make a move out on my own. 182 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 4: And I think the biggest thing to me is it's like, 183 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 4: is it coming out of your best thinking or is 184 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 4: it coming out of the anxiety or the tension? 185 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: Right? 186 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 4: Are you just trying to keep things calm as quickly 187 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 4: as possible and make people happy, or can you kind 188 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 4: of shift out of that a little bit? 189 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: That's interesting, So because I love thinking about like questions 190 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: to ask yourself when you feel this arise and it's 191 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: am I doing this to keep the peace? Or am 192 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: I doing this because it feels like it's in line 193 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: with my values? 194 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 2: Is that what I'm hearing? 195 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the sort of the how do I make decisions? 196 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 4: What's going on when I when I make a decision 197 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 4: or when I react to something. How much of the 198 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 4: front part of my brain is involved in that process? 199 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 4: And how much is not right? Because most of the 200 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 4: time we're on autopilot, we're just reacting, and that's okay. 201 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 4: But if you can find one or two moments in 202 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 4: a day where you can really stop and say, what 203 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 4: do I think is the best way forward? 204 00:09:59,160 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: Here? 205 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 4: You see the opportunities maybe to kind of not people 206 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 4: please or test out the theory that maybe you won't 207 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 4: die if you say no to but to somebody, which 208 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 4: your body can really trick you into believing. 209 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: The first thing that comes up for me is invitations 210 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: or coffee meetings. That's like what I'm currently struggling with 211 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: right now. I'm a person who really values connection. It's 212 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: at the heart of my job, my personal value system. 213 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: And at the same time, I'm so pulled, like stretched 214 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: too thin, exhausted, can't even if I want to attend 215 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: all the things or meet all the people, can't do it. 216 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: What are examples that come up in your work all 217 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: the time? I know that's so specific to me. I'm 218 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: curious about other examples that happens with me too. 219 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: I get emails from people who say, can you look 220 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 4: at this writing I'm doing? Or can you talk to 221 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 4: me about your profession? 222 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 3: Right? 223 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: All these great emails from college students I get, and 224 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 4: I have to think about whether I say yes or no? Right, 225 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 4: And I think that just goes back to being honest 226 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 4: with people, you know, whether that's saying something like you 227 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 4: will not get the best version of me if I 228 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 4: meet with you right now, so I'm going to have 229 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 4: to say no. And how is giving people your thinking 230 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 4: useful for them? They might not like it, right, but 231 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 4: it's helpful. Yeah, And it's a great workout for you too. 232 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 4: I think also as a therapist, you know, I have 233 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 4: to really think about how many hours a day can 234 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 4: I really be useful to people, And if I try 235 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 4: and fit in another person, is that really helping them 236 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 4: or is that me just trying to avoid their upsetness 237 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 4: in the moment? 238 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: Right, So you hit on something that I'm so curious about, 239 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: because when we think of people pleasing, we think of selflessness. 240 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: I think that's like one of the first things that 241 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,239 Speaker 1: comes up. But I'm almost wondering if it's less about 242 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: selflessness and more about self protection, because are you really 243 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: doing somebody any favors? Are you giving of yourself if 244 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: you're not showing up in the best way or you 245 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: don't actually want to be there. 246 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 4: I think that's such a great question, and I sort 247 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 4: of phrase it as am I being helpful? Or am 248 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 4: I managing my own stress? And that can be a 249 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 4: form of self protection certainly, but I think ninety percent 250 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 4: of the time it's about dismanaging the stress of having 251 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 4: to be a person who has to make decisions, you know, 252 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 4: And that can be helpful because then you can realize, no, 253 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 4: it's not about letting somebody down. It's about recognizing that 254 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 4: I have to do something else with my stress. Then 255 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 4: just say yes to everybody that that's ultimately not effective 256 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 4: way to manage it over the long haul. 257 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: What's the overlap here between people pleasing in boundaries? 258 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 4: People get so focused on how a boundary is received, 259 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 4: and I think the same thing can happen with people 260 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: pleasing right. The focus is all on the other and 261 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 4: how they're going to react. And what I challenge people 262 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 4: to do is, can you shift the focus back to yourself? 263 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 4: And to me? A boundary is telling somebody, here's what 264 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 4: you can expect from me, here's what I will do 265 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 4: if this happens. Here's what I will not do for you. 266 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 4: And that's incredibly useful information for people to have, right, 267 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 4: because then they can make a decision based on what 268 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 4: you're telling them, right. And so I think that connects 269 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 4: to people pleasing in the sense of are you really 270 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 4: lying to people if you tell them you can meet 271 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 4: with them, if you tell them you which is telling 272 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 4: them you have energy for them, you know? And so 273 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 4: how was that not honest and upfront and not a 274 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 4: good way to represent yourself. 275 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: What's coming up for me is a line that I 276 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: heard Glennon Doyle say. She said, be a model, not 277 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: a martyr, And so she particularly says it in relation 278 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: to motherhood because moms are so often supposed to be 279 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: selfless or feel the need to do for everybody else 280 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: before themselves. But it's like, if you give and give 281 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: and give, is that really the model that you want 282 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: your children to see, etc. And oftentimes that's that's just 283 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: not the case. I was trying to think of examples 284 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: of people pleasing. I think avoiding conflict falls in there, 285 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: like not giving somebody your opinion to keep the peace. 286 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: Taking on extra work so like volunteering for tasks or 287 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: agreeing to do stuff that you really don't have time for. 288 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,239 Speaker 2: Does a emotional labor fall into this category. 289 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 4: Absolutely, that's a way to be over involved with people 290 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 4: as to assume they can't manage their their own distress, 291 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: which they can to a degree. But yeah, I love 292 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 4: those examples because I'm always thinking about what am I 293 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 4: teaching the other person, the system, the workplace by how 294 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 4: I respond. Right, If you're always people pleasing or I 295 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 4: use word overfunctioning, right, then the system reorients itself around that. 296 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 4: Right there is it is going to operate under the 297 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 4: assumption that you've got it. And so if you start 298 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 4: to manage yourself differently, you are teaching you know, your partner, 299 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 4: the workplace, your friends that you're beginning to operate in 300 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 4: a different way and they can adjust accordingly and so, 301 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 4: but you have to give people those chances to adjust. 302 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 4: If you're always tiptoeing around them, they never get the 303 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 4: practice of handling you, which maybe they can, maybe they'll 304 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 4: surprise you right right, But we keep teaching them that 305 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 4: the opposite is true, that they can expect us to 306 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 4: take on a lot, And why wouldn't they do that 307 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 4: if they know you're going to pick it up. It 308 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 4: makes total sense that they would function that way. So 309 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 4: you have to ask, what's my part in all this? 310 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 4: If you're taking it on. 311 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break, but we'll be right back 312 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: with doctor Kathleen Smith. 313 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: And we're back. What is the toll of people pleasing? 314 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 4: A couple of things. I think First, your own sensitivity 315 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 4: to disapproval goes up, Like it's that much harder to 316 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 4: stand in the face of somebody being upset with you, 317 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 4: or somebody not giving you praise or attention. You get 318 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 4: more sensitive to it. I think also you more quickly 319 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 4: abandon your own beliefs and boundaries and ideas just to 320 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 4: kind of please the other. And I think those two 321 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 4: things can happen very very quickly. And I also think 322 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 4: you've just got the physical and the emotional burnout as well. 323 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 4: You might just get sick or you know, or very 324 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 4: depressed or something else, because if you can't consciously step back, 325 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 4: your body will kind of make you have to do it. 326 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: I'd like to understand some of the reasons why people 327 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: become people pleasers, and you talk a lot about the 328 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: Bowen theory in your book. Can you explain what the 329 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: Bowen theory is and how it helps us understand why 330 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: we can become people pleasers? 331 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 4: Sure, so, I'll give you the short version. This guy 332 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 4: named Murray Bowen. He was a psychiatrist. He was sort 333 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 4: of the father of family therapy. Family therapy was really 334 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 4: big in like the sixties, seventies, eighties, and he had 335 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 4: this really interesting idea that humans, we do not think 336 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 4: that we're animals, like we somehow see ourselves as the 337 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 4: exception to all the rules that govern the natural world, 338 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 4: like how does an ant colony operate? How does a 339 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 4: flock of birds operate? Or a troop of chimpanzees? Right, 340 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 4: But humans are social creatures, and so we have to 341 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 4: get things done as a group and we also have 342 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 4: to manage tension as a group. Right. When people talk 343 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 4: about anxiety, they tend to talk about the diagnosis what 344 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 4: the individual does with it. But groups have anxiety and 345 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 4: tension too. Bowen had this idea, there are all these 346 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 4: ways that we recruit other humans and vice versa to 347 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 4: keep things calm in so you have to look to 348 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 4: your relationships too to see sort of how you predictably function. 349 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 4: Because we get our systems, our families, your friend group, 350 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 4: we get stuck in these patterns of operating that take 351 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 4: a toll, right, They keep things chugging along until the 352 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 4: wheels sort of fall off the wagon. And so his 353 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 4: big thing was, like, how do I stay in relationship 354 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 4: with all these other humans without getting stuck in these 355 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: very predictable patterns that you also see in the natural 356 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 4: world too, other animals doing some of these things because 357 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 4: they're living creatures and people pleasing is one. It's not 358 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 4: one of the concepts in the theory, but this idea 359 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 4: that you kind of overfunction for somebody or over accommodate them, 360 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 4: and you lose a little bit of yourself in the process. Ye, 361 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 4: that's one of the things we do, and it's so common. 362 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: Well, no, that's fascinating because that's at the heart of 363 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: everything you're talking about in your book. And I love 364 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: the idea of not just thinking what's wrong with me, 365 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: but looking at the systems in place, because oftentimes we're 366 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: just a product of those systems, and it's those that 367 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: we have to question. How does birth order play into 368 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: all this? 369 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so Bowen refers to it as sibling position, But 370 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 4: same thing, right we all you know, obviously there are exceptions. 371 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 4: Not everybody who's an oldest child is going to function 372 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 4: like a stereotypical oldest child. Maybe it's the next one. 373 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: But for a lot of us, I'm an only child, 374 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 4: so you can take a wild guess about how I function. 375 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 4: I hated group projects in high school. I'm not a 376 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 4: great team player. I just want to be left alone 377 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 4: most of the time. Right, And there are assets to 378 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,959 Speaker 4: our sibling position, and then there are deficits, right, right, 379 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 4: And so part of like growing up is like how 380 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 4: do I move around the field a little bit and 381 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 4: get comfortable in other positions? You know, if I'm always 382 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 4: the one who's very comfortable being the leader, directing everybody 383 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 4: taking it all on, can I look for opportunities to 384 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 4: just be a participant in something, to let my friends 385 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 4: figure out what restaurant we're going to eat at, because 386 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 4: which is very difficult to do if you're the one 387 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 4: who usually kind of rounds everybody up, right, right, And 388 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 4: so what I love about the theories just every day 389 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 4: is an opportunity to see how you get a little 390 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 4: bit more flexible and move a little bit outside of 391 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 4: whatever is typical for you. Whether that's people pleasing, whether 392 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 4: that's avoiding everybody, whether that's letting other people do everything 393 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 4: for you. We all have our challenges. 394 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: So for people listening who may be feeling like, okay, 395 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: some of this resonates with me, maybe some of this doesn't. 396 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: What are the signs that we are people pleasing? 397 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 4: I think pick a day, go throughout your day and 398 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 4: notice everything you do that is an adjustment to the other. Right, 399 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 4: Like if your spouse or your partner asks you to 400 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 4: do something that you know they can do for themselves, 401 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 4: they're just being a little lazy. Can you think about 402 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 4: whether you want to do that or not, or whether 403 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: you want to say, you know what, I'm not going 404 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 4: to do that right now, why don't you go get it? 405 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 4: Or even like writing no worries in an email. This 406 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 4: is something I do all the time? 407 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: Right? 408 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 4: Is it really that? Isn't really your job to let 409 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 4: somebody know you're not upset with them, or like, can 410 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 4: you just end the email and then they can manage 411 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 4: their own feelings about whatever is? You know, just those 412 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 4: small ways that we are constantly monitoring and trying to 413 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 4: manage everybody else's reactions to us, because you'll find so 414 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 4: many if you just take a day and so have 415 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 4: those goggles on. 416 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: It's true, you know. 417 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: I think one of the great distinctions you make in 418 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: this book is the difference between being relationship oriented and 419 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: valuing relationships. 420 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: Can you walk us through that difference? 421 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 4: Being relationship oriented is being always focused on trying to 422 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 4: control how others are reacting to you. So, how much 423 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 4: energy are you putting into getting attention, approval, praise from others? 424 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 4: How much are you trying to be what you think 425 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 4: people want you to be? How much are you trying 426 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 4: to get other people to be what you want them 427 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 4: to be? It can go both ways, right, how much 428 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 4: are you Let's say you're in the shower, you're trying 429 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 4: to fall asleep at night, you're on your way home 430 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 4: from work. Are you replaying conversations wondering if people find 431 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,959 Speaker 4: you annoying or what you said was ridiculous? You know 432 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 4: we all do this to some degree, But can you 433 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 4: shift that and say, what do I actually think? How 434 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 4: do I think that meeting went. Did I do a 435 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 4: good job? What's my own evaluation of myself? What do 436 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 4: I think is an important way to spend my day? 437 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 4: How should I live my life irrespective of what this 438 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: influencer says or what my parents say. Right? Any more 439 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 4: self you can add into it, you are probably going 440 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 4: to have better relationships with people because all of that 441 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 4: anxiety is not being directed at them while you're anxiously 442 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 4: monitoring how they're taking you in Right, it's hard for 443 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: a relationship to flourish when people are so focused on 444 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 4: each other like that. So it's not about not caring 445 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 4: about others or about what they think. It's about dialing 446 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 4: down the intensity a little bit so you can actually 447 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 4: get to know somebody. 448 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said the word anxiety, because that 449 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: really seems like it's at the core of a lot 450 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: of people pleasing As a therapist, what are some productive 451 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: ways you've seen people manage their anxiety within these relationships. 452 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think really looking for opportunities to test out 453 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 4: whether something is actually threatening or not. Of course, there 454 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 4: are situations in life where situations that are threatening you 455 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 4: should get away from certain people, right, But where are 456 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 4: the relationships that are probably going to survive and be Okay? 457 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 4: If you say no, I can't do that, or I 458 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 4: think about this differently, I don't agree, right, And so 459 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: over time your brain and your body learn to reevaluate 460 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 4: how scary, how threatening a situation is. So I think 461 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 4: the people who can pick and choose and say, Okay, 462 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 4: here's where I'm going to do the scary thing today, 463 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 4: let's evaluate, let's see and then lo and behold like 464 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 4: their friend could totally handle it, right, or their boss 465 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 4: wasn't upset that they were they needed to go home 466 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 4: and they couldn't do that one more task at the 467 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 4: end of the day. Right, Most relationships will survive and 468 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 4: actually do better. But you have to be able to 469 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: test out that reality and prove that the fear is 470 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 4: is not real, it's just imagined. 471 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: What are some signs that the relationship is doing better? 472 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think if you're focusing and ruminating less about 473 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 4: what the other person is thinking, and you're just able 474 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 4: to enjoy yourself. You're able to talk about what's interesting 475 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 4: to you. You're able to be more interested in the 476 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 4: other person, that genuine interest that's different than the anxious monitoring. 477 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 4: I think that's a sign that things are calming down 478 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 4: a little bit and you can kind of be more 479 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 4: more present as yourself. 480 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: As I'm hearing you share that, I'm thinking, Oh, so 481 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: much of this is a muscle. Some of this is 482 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: a mindset, But I think the more you practice not 483 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 1: being worried about being liked, the easier it gets. 484 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 2: How much of this is correlated to age. 485 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 4: I think it can kind of work both ways because people, Yes, 486 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 4: there is this idea of people sort of just caring 487 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 4: less about what other people think as they get older, 488 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 4: But people also can kind of get stuck or their 489 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 4: social circles can also shrink as they get older, right, 490 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 4: And so it can work a little bit both ways. 491 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: Interesting, but I do. 492 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 4: Think that our brains have the advantage when we're older. 493 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 4: There's all this interesting research about how teenagers literally cannot 494 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 4: distinguish between what they think about themselves and what other 495 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 4: people think about them if you ask them those two 496 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 4: different questions. The brain scans show up exactly the same. 497 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 4: So these poor kids, it's really hard for them because 498 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: how they're being perceived is almost literally how they see themselves. Right, 499 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 4: But as we get older, that kind of separates a 500 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 4: little bit, and so to me, that's an increct correct. 501 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 4: I feel bad for the teenagers, but you do start 502 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: to kind of see the difference as you get older, 503 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 4: but you have to test it out. 504 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: It's time for another short break, but we'll be right 505 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: back to our conversation with doctor Kathleen Smith. Stay with us, 506 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: and we're back to Wellness Wednesday with doctor Kathleen Smith. 507 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 2: You do so many interviews and. 508 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: You're just incredibly accomplished, particularly on this topic. What's a 509 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: part of this that people don't ask about enough? 510 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 4: I think that people don't make the connection to the 511 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 4: natural world. I mentioned that earlier with Bowen and looking 512 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 4: at other animals, and one of the examples I given 513 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 4: in the book is just how creatures are hierarchical. Right, 514 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 4: They look to higher ranking like elephants have a very 515 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,239 Speaker 4: rigid hierarchy, right. Chimpanzees do too, right, And there's this 516 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 4: famous research study where these researchers trained higher ranking chimps 517 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 4: in the troop to pick carrots instead of grapes as 518 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 4: a snack, which is not what they like. They like grapes. 519 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 4: I do too, I'd prefer that to a carrot, right, 520 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: And all the lower ranking chips are watching them like 521 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 4: what's going on? Why are they eating that carrot? 522 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 3: Right? 523 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 4: And then when it was their turn, they pick the 524 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 4: carrot also because they defer to the higher ranking members 525 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 4: of the troop. 526 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: Right. 527 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 4: And so that's just such a helpful example for me 528 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 4: because it helps me not be so hard on myself 529 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 4: when I am focused on what pleases my superior What 530 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 4: are these more famous people doing? Right? Because we can 531 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: say where we have certain beliefs, you can say I 532 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 4: don't subscribe to diet culture, but then your favorite celebrity 533 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 4: talks about something that they're doing and you're like, oh, 534 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 4: I need to go go do that, right, It's so 535 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 4: automatic for us. Yeah, And so I think just looking 536 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 4: at other examples in nature, like as humans, we are 537 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 4: unique in some ways but and others not so much. 538 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 4: And how does cutting yourself a little bit of slack 539 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 4: when you shift into people pleasing or worrying too much 540 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 4: about what other people think of you. How do you 541 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 4: just remind yourself, Oh, yeah, I'm a social creature. That's 542 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 4: like telling me to stop doing that is like telling 543 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 4: me not to breathe. Right, You can adjust how much, 544 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 4: but it's always going to be there to some degree, 545 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 4: and that's okay, And so I think that that's helpful 546 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 4: for people to hear because the trend in pop psychologies 547 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 4: don't do that. Why do you care so much what 548 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 4: other people think of you? As if that's like a 549 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 4: switch you can turn off, but it isn't. 550 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: If you grew up in a family hierarchy where the 551 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: disease to please or people pleasing is prevalent, what's something 552 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: that you can do today to start veering outside of it? 553 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: So it's like a subtle move. What's the question to 554 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: ask yourself today? 555 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 4: Yeah? Where is your energy going into managing others? 556 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: Is it? 557 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 4: Women in particular can be bad about checking in with 558 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 4: people to make sure they're not upset with even though 559 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 4: there's no evidence that they are right, And that's, I 560 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 4: guess a nice thing. But how much energy do you 561 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 4: put into that that doesn't give other people the responsibility 562 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 4: of letting you know if they're upset with you? Right, 563 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 4: which is you know, kind of on them. I call 564 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 4: it my tentacles. I'm like, where are my tentacles going 565 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 4: to go out and try and manage other people's lives 566 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 4: reactions to me, making sure they're okay with me, making 567 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 4: sure they don't think I'm a jerk or whatever. And 568 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 4: can I reel those back in or pull those back 569 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 4: in and put my energy elsewhere? Yeah, and so I 570 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 4: think of that sort of the checking in with the 571 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 4: other The reassurance is it asking your partner, are you 572 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 4: sure you're okay with me? You're sure you're not mad? 573 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 4: We're good? Right? How much of that do we do? 574 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 4: I think those are just kind of the best, small, 575 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 4: subtle ways to start, because then you have to eat 576 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 4: the distress or do something else with it. Right, then 577 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 4: get the other person to manage it for you. 578 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: For anyone who's identifying with this and is looking for 579 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: more guidance, you write a really popular newsletter. Where can 580 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: listeners find your newsletter for more advice? 581 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's on substack. It's called The Anxious Overachiever. You 582 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 4: can look there or my website is. Kathleen Smith writes, 583 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 4: I consider myself an anxious overachiever. Maybe one day I'll 584 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 4: be an anxious achiever or a less anxious achiever but 585 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 4: still working on it. So yeah, I write about all 586 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 4: this stuff every week. 587 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: Over there, Kathleen, this has been so illuminating. Thank you. 588 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 4: Oh great, it was fun. 589 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Kathleen Smith is an author, licensed therapist, and expert 590 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: on relationship systems. She also writes a newsletter called The 591 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: Anxious Overachiever. 592 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 3: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we've got another edition 593 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 3: of shelf Life. Author Maureen gou joins us to talk 594 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 3: about our new book and Reese's Book Club, winter Yapick Throwback. 595 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect 596 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram 597 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and 598 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 3: feel free to tag us at Simone Voice and at 599 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 3: danielle Robe. 600 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, 601 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 602 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 3: See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side.