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Speaker 1: Pablo the fourteenth has called a huge meeting of the

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Speaker 1: College of Cardinals at the top of the new year.

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Speaker 1: One of the agenda items Pope Francis's restrictions on the

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Speaker 1: traditional Latin Mass. What impact could that gathering have on

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Speaker 1: the ancient rite? And why does the French government want

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Speaker 1: to put modern stained glass at Notre Dame Cathedral. We'll

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Speaker 1: discuss it all and more on this edition of The

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Speaker 1: Prayerful Posse. Welcome to The Prayerful Posse. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: go subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to

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Speaker 1: support our work, totally free. Go visit Raymondroyo dot com

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to contribute. Let's convene the Posse. Canon

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Speaker 1: Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father Gerald Murray,

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Speaker 1: an editor in chief of The Catholic Thing dot org.

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Speaker 1: Robert Royal, thank you both for being here, gentlemen. The

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Speaker 1: Pope has called this January seventh through eight gathering of

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Speaker 1: the world's cardinals in Rome. Now this is on the

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Speaker 1: heels of the closing of the Holy Door and the

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Speaker 1: end of the Jubilee year. According to Diane Montana and

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Speaker 1: an article in Il Giornale the Pope sent a Christmas

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Speaker 1: letter to all the cardinals laying out the agenda. They'll

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Speaker 1: be discussing the governance of the Church and his relationship

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Speaker 1: with the cardinals, cinidality, God help Us, and the Sacred Liturgy.

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Speaker 1: For homework. Pope Leo has asked them to reread Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis's Evangelie Galdium proclaiming the Gospel and predicate Evangelium reform

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Speaker 1: of the Couria Father. Under Pope Francis, the cardinals complained

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Speaker 1: they weren't consulted enough. He limited his consultations to that

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Speaker 1: group of nine cardinals that he chose, you know, by himself,

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Speaker 1: which will remember now Pope Leo seems to be putting

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Speaker 1: this model up for discussion. Is he opening up the

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Speaker 1: governance question and Francis's version of it?

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Speaker 2: He certainly is, because he's now bringing the rest of

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Speaker 2: the College of Cardinals together to Rome. You mentioned he

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Speaker 2: had a small group of about eight cardinals who would

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Speaker 2: meet about every three months to discuss primarily the reform

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Speaker 2: of the Roman Curia, which resulted in that Predicattie Evangelium

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Speaker 2: document about the structure of the Roman cury. But now

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Speaker 2: the whole College will get to meet, and they've been

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Speaker 2: given topics to prepare, references to read, and I hoped

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Speaker 2: they'll be given the liberty to speak, you know, ad libytum,

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Speaker 2: so they can get up and speak what's in their

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Speaker 2: hearts and in their minds, because these are men of

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Speaker 2: tremendous training, experience, and knowledge from throughout the world. And

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Speaker 2: sad to say, during the last pontificate that knowledge and

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Speaker 2: experience was not really tapped. And I think a number

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Speaker 2: of decisions were made which would not have been made

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Speaker 2: or made in a different way if Pope Francis had

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Speaker 2: listened to his cardinals before issuing some of his decrees.

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Speaker 1: Bob, the Pope is asking cardinals to reread Prediccote Evangelum.

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Speaker 1: Now that was the Francis's constitutional reforming the couria. Is

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Speaker 1: the US about showing continuity with Francis or is it

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Speaker 1: about the cardinals understanding the framework before Leo makes some

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Speaker 1: changes or at least offers them.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think we're gonna have to wait and see

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Speaker 3: what they actually what actually transpires during the course of

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Speaker 3: those conversations, because in one way, you know, people have

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Speaker 3: been joking that he's assigned some homework for them to

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Speaker 3: read these two documents before they come to Rome to

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Speaker 3: be with him. But it's a good sign. It seems

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Speaker 3: to me that we're, you know, very very early in

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Speaker 3: the first week of the new year, as you rightly say,

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Speaker 3: when now the jubilee years behind us, he's bringing those

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Speaker 3: guys right in and so yeah, he's going to be

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Speaker 3: looking back. We know that he has a great deal

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Speaker 3: deal of sympathy and has said openly he wants to

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Speaker 3: continue in the line of Pope Francis. But by this

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Speaker 3: very gesture of bringing the cardinals together, he's already kind

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Speaker 3: of changed the tune a little bit here, and so

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Speaker 3: there's going to be They're gonna be opportunity. What it

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Speaker 3: is for people to speak, there will be opportunities for

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Speaker 3: people to listen to, which is something that we're told

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Speaker 3: is part and parcel of the Church of Cinidality. I

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Speaker 3: don't think we can predict an advance where it will go,

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Speaker 3: but to me, it's an encouraging sign at least that

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Speaker 3: there's that much of a departure from the past. And

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Speaker 3: even when you look back at documents and reread them

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Speaker 3: in a different set of circumstances, we may see some

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Speaker 3: interesting things for the good for the bad, But we'll

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Speaker 3: have to wait and see what those things are.

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Speaker 1: Father Bob mentioned sinidality, which is also on the agenda.

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Speaker 1: That word sinidality kind of sums up the entirety of

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Speaker 1: Francis's s pontificate in one word which no one can

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Speaker 1: quite define. I mean, is it listening, is it accompaniment?

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Speaker 1: We don't really know, but we've seen Pope Leo endeavor

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Speaker 1: to interpret sinidality as a means of communion. What was

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Speaker 1: Francis's version and what do you think Leo's version of

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Speaker 1: sinidality is. Help us understand the distinction if there is one.

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Speaker 2: There probably are distinctions, but I can't really draw them

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Speaker 2: yet because we haven't really seen concrete action from Pope

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Speaker 2: Leo about what citideality means to him. Now, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll point out that Pope Francis and the Synod Committee,

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Speaker 2: the Office of the Senate had decided that there's not

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Speaker 2: going to be another meeting of the Senod the next

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Speaker 2: time around. There's going to be what's called an ecclesial Assembly,

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Speaker 2: which we're told will not include a majority of bishops.

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Speaker 2: So this is a real landmine in the in the

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Speaker 2: church because bishops are the ones who rule the church,

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Speaker 2: and ecclesial assemblies are sort of like councilors are synods.

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Speaker 2: They're there's meetings to make decisions. So I hope that

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Speaker 2: topic is addressed because we don't know what an ecclesial

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Speaker 2: assembly is, how do people get picked, what are their powers,

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Speaker 2: what are their teaching authority? None of that has any

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Speaker 2: history in the Catholic Church. So I think that's going

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Speaker 2: to be something to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: It's good that the publish are about the Roman curity

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Speaker 2: and governance and centidality, because in my opinion, what sinidality

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Speaker 2: was all about under post Francis was involving lay people

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Speaker 2: on the governance of the church, and that included religious

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Speaker 2: men and women. And this is a fundamental shift from

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Speaker 2: the nature of the church according to a divine constitution

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Speaker 2: in which the governance isn't trusted to the shepherds and

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Speaker 2: not to the sheep.

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Speaker 1: Bob then Father. The most fascinating aspect of this global

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Speaker 1: meeting of Cardinals and Extraordinary Consistories what it's officially called,

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Speaker 1: is that Leo has put liturgy on the agenda. Now,

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Speaker 1: there have been comments from papal diplomats from far flung

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Speaker 1: parts of the church about changes to Pope Francis's limitations

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Speaker 1: on the traditional Latin Mass. What do you think this

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Speaker 1: meeting will produce, if anything, bob you first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the fact that he's put that on the

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Speaker 3: agenda to begin with again is a change whether what

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Speaker 3: we saw under Pope Francis over the last dozen years

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Speaker 3: was really a kind of high ended approach where Rome

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Speaker 3: said no, no, no, you can't do that, and there

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Speaker 3: were even ridiculous, you know, specifics like you can't even

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Speaker 3: advertise in a church bulletin at what hour the Latin

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Speaker 3: Mass is going to take place. I mean this, really,

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Speaker 3: I can only think of that as a kind of

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Speaker 3: an insult to the people who like the traditional Latin

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Speaker 3: Mass and value it. I get the impression that there

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Speaker 3: may be a reason why that's there, that if what

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Speaker 3: Popo Leo is trying to do is actually implement a

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Speaker 3: different vision of citidelity. And by the way he spoke,

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Speaker 3: this was little notice several months ago, but he spoke

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Speaker 3: about one of the things he wants to promote is

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Speaker 3: better conversation within the Vatican among the different dicastries, because

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Speaker 3: he said he feels like certain dicastries are operating without

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Speaker 3: communicating with others, and then you know there are these

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Speaker 3: kind of just jointed things that happened. So I think

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Speaker 3: that's all to the good. I think if we get

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Speaker 3: a candid conversation about the liturgy, it may very well

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Speaker 3: be that, without entirely repudiating Francis, he may put forward

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Speaker 3: to kind of a loosening of the restrictions. But I

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Speaker 3: just can't predict that. We'll have to see whether the

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Speaker 3: cardinals themselves come out forcefully and say, look, this is

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Speaker 3: a strong part of our tradition and it is not

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Speaker 3: risking a sism in the Church or a repudiation of

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Speaker 3: Vatican too to allow people who find their spirituality enhanced

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Speaker 3: by the traditional Latin Mass to do what they were

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Speaker 3: doing without much difficulty throughout the world for decades.

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Speaker 1: Father, Could this represent a turn, do you think where

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Speaker 1: Leo takes a different course, at least vis a vis

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Speaker 1: the traditional Mass.

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Speaker 2: I think so, because there's no record of Leo ever

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Speaker 2: stating the same things that Pope Francis did about those

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Speaker 2: who attend the traditional Latin Mass. That is, those people

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Speaker 2: were a cause of lack of unity in the Church,

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Speaker 2: and there was no focus on, as post Francis did

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Speaker 2: so frequently on the alleged psychological deficiencies of the people

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Speaker 2: who like to go to the Latin Mass. So I

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Speaker 2: think that is reflective that this pope reflects. I think

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Speaker 2: the mainstream view of most bishops throughout the world is

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Speaker 2: they may not personally want to celebrate the Latin Mass,

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Speaker 2: but why should they stop people who do want to

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Speaker 2: go to that Mass and priests who want to celebrate it.

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Speaker 2: I think in the interest of peace and unity in

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Speaker 2: the Church, we basically have to get over that Sixties preoccupation,

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Speaker 2: which is Vatican two is destroyed if the Mass is

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Speaker 2: set in Latin using the old missile. No, it isn't.

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Speaker 2: Vatican two stands on its own. Vatican two took governing Act,

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Speaker 2: a teaching act, all of that has its own legitimacy

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Speaker 2: and life to it. The Latin Mass is a separate

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Speaker 2: question because, quite frankly, as we know, the Vatican two

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Speaker 2: never envisioned eliminating Latin from the Mass or the Gregorian Chant.

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Speaker 2: It never envisioned a radical change in the structure of

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Speaker 2: the Mass and the other sacramento ritual. So it's good

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Speaker 2: to have a legitimate debate, which I think is going

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Speaker 2: on get battic in two thoughts, the fathers of Attican

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Speaker 2: two and their thoughts on the liturgy get adequately reflected

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Speaker 2: in liturgical reform, and I'd be very in favor of

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Speaker 2: that kind of discussion. I hope Pope Leo is also well.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm thrilled that A we're seeing the return of

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Speaker 1: the College of cardinals surrounding the Pope to even have

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Speaker 1: these conversations. It's a huge moment and we'll be watching it,

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Speaker 1: of course, But the cardinals have a huge responsibility right

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Speaker 1: now because it's their moment to voice what frankly they've

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Speaker 1: been holding back for a dozen years, and the will

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Speaker 1: of their people about what's actually happening in parish life

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Speaker 1: all around the world. So in some ways it's a

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Speaker 1: this is really the beginning of Leo's pontificate and the

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Speaker 1: whatever chart it will, of course, it will chart into

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Speaker 1: the future. Bob, if you were there and advising the

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Speaker 1: pope as a cardinal, what would you tell them at

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Speaker 1: this consistory?

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Speaker 3: Well, as I've been saying for a long time, even before,

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Speaker 3: remember when we were covering the election of Pope Francis,

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Speaker 3: I think we have a moment here in the church

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Speaker 3: where we have an enormous amount of very good teaching,

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Speaker 3: some of it from Frances, but a lot of it

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Speaker 3: from Cardinal Ratzinger, then Benedicta sixteenth and going all the

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Speaker 3: way back to John Paul the second. But I don't

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Speaker 3: know that that teaching has been implemented at the parish level.

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Speaker 3: I would really like to see, if we're going to

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Speaker 3: talk about having conversations and open discussions in the church,

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Speaker 3: how about bringing the energy that the last three popes

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Speaker 3: have brought to the church, finding the best of what's there,

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Speaker 3: and trying to implement that at the parish level. These

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Speaker 3: large scale conversations that go on are important, sometimes for

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Speaker 3: the good and sometimes or the bad. But really where

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Speaker 3: Catholic life is led is in the dios and in

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Speaker 3: the parish, and that's where a lot of whether the

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Speaker 3: Catholic life is good or bad. I happen to live

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Speaker 3: in a very good parish and a very good diocese

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Speaker 3: in Arlington, Virginia, and I get down these and I

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Speaker 3: thank God it weekly about that because I see what

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Speaker 3: happens in many other places in the world. So look,

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Speaker 3: that would be the start for me, and I think

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Speaker 3: if we get we get that part of it right,

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Speaker 3: that it's individual people's lives in the concrete places where

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Speaker 3: they are practicing their faith. The other things you know

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Speaker 3: are are important, but they're not as important to me.

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Speaker 1: Father, if you had two minutes at the mic in

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Speaker 1: that consistory, you'd say what.

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Speaker 2: I would say that all honesty and candor, we have

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Speaker 2: to recognize that Pope Francis taught things that no pope

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Speaker 2: ever taught. And these things need to be addressed, meaning

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Speaker 2: they need to be passed aside. And I speak speaking

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Speaker 2: specifically about giving holy communion to people who are an

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Speaker 2: adult or as second marriages. I'm talking of blessing homeless

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Speaker 2: sexual couples who are living as couples and you know,

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Speaker 2: mimicking marriage and getting a pseudo blessing, but you can't

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Speaker 2: bless sin. I would also say we have to look

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Speaker 2: at the unicity of Christ and we have to re

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Speaker 2: examine that statement that Pope France has signs saying that

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Speaker 2: God wills all religions. That causes immense confusion in the

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Speaker 2: world because the impression is given when Catholics meet with

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Speaker 2: everybody else. Our main goal is to say, I hope

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Speaker 2: you live your religion better because God wills your religion,

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Speaker 2: rather than saying Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world,

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Speaker 2: came to fulfill the hopes of mankind, Pagan and jew

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Speaker 2: and all together form the mystical body of Christ, the Church.

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Speaker 2: So I think candor and forthrightness demands that we look

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Speaker 2: because in the end, what is Christianity before anything else?

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Speaker 2: It's Christ himself and his word. He's the eternal word.

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Speaker 2: His mother Angelica taught so well, what is that word

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Speaker 2: in the modern world. It's been obscured by pop friends ansays.

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Speaker 2: We have to recognize that, and we have to say,

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Speaker 2: for the good of the Church, this needs to be corrected.

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, the former head of the Vatican's Doctrinal Office,

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Speaker 1: who will be present at that consistory, he spoke of

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Speaker 1: cinidality recently. I'm sure he's going to have a lot

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Speaker 1: to say at this consistory. Recently he's been very critical

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Speaker 1: of the German Snatyl path. He's called that path a

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Speaker 1: heretical attempt to replace Christian anthropology with gender ideology. Here's

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Speaker 1: the quote. The organization of the so called Sonatyl path

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Speaker 1: possesses no magisterial authority, nor is it a constituent assembly

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Speaker 1: empowered to establish a German national Church or an Anglican

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Speaker 1: or Protestant style. It is nothing other than a heretical

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Speaker 1: attempt to replace the Christian understanding of the human person

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Speaker 1: with gender ideology, and to present this corruption of doctrine

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Speaker 1: to a naive audience as its development. Bob, with Pope

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Speaker 1: Leo fostering discussion of sinidelity at that January meeting, is

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Speaker 1: Mueller positioning himself here to lead that conversation? Is he

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Speaker 1: going to be the ant of the picnic?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't think he's going to be the only

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Speaker 3: one by a long stretch. You know, the Pope Francis

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Speaker 3: tried to rain in the Germans with in very weak ways.

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Speaker 3: I mean, obviously they were edging more and more, not

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Speaker 3: only towards this denial of Christian anthropology. And they've just

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Speaker 3: passed some uh, some documents affirming that they want to

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Speaker 3: have this this kind of this kind of crazy LGBT

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Speaker 3: teaching imposing Catholic schools. You know that the children are

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Speaker 3: going to be kind of indoctrinated this with this from

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Speaker 3: their earliest ages. But then there's the question of that

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Speaker 3: that uh German synotyl way that that that body of

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Speaker 3: governing the church, which is now an ecclesial question. We've

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Speaker 3: got the moral question as a disaster. But they're also

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Speaker 3: kind of setting themselves up to have like their own

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Speaker 3: little playpen, as if they're not part of the universal Church.

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Speaker 3: There's been a lot of attempt not to overemphasize what

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Speaker 3: that is. I don't think that the Vatican wanted to

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Speaker 3: look too closely at it, but this really comes about

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Speaker 3: as close to an out and out and out sism,

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Speaker 3: almost another German Reformation that is going to split off

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Speaker 3: a portion of the church from the Universal Church. I

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Speaker 3: think that is going to be a desperate thing, and

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Speaker 3: I hope that there are going to be a lot

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Speaker 3: more voices than just Cardinal Mueller about this. I know

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Speaker 3: myself a handful of other people I'm sure will bring

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Speaker 3: this up. But I think Popolio has to pay very

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Speaker 3: careful attention to this because this could really be a

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Speaker 3: disaster for the Universal Church.

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Speaker 1: Well. Father Cardinal Mueller also commented on the status of

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Speaker 1: the Society of Saint Pius the Tenth in a Catholic

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Speaker 1: Herald article recently. He says anti traditional Latin Mass bishops

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Speaker 1: are effectively pushing the faithful into the arms of the SSPX.

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Speaker 1: Yet Mueller has also been one of the society's harshest

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Speaker 1: critics for years, calling them sismatic due to their rejection

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Speaker 1: of Vatican Two. Here's the quote. There have been and

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Speaker 1: continues to be endless dialogues with this group, but they

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Speaker 1: simply circle around. There's no way around recognizing the Second

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Speaker 1: Vatican Council as the twenty first Ecumenical Council of the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church. The foolish talk of setevicante of the Chair,

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Speaker 1: Peter calls for a revision of the Council, and the

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Speaker 1: claim that the lefeveres are the last bastion of true

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Speaker 1: Catholicity must finally come to an end. Even if they

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Speaker 1: are right to place their finger in the wounds inflicted

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Speaker 1: on the body of Christ by self appointed reformers in

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Speaker 1: the style of modernism, there's never a justification for distancing

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Speaker 1: oneself from the Catholic Church. Father, how do you square

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Speaker 1: that circle? I mean, is this a my enemy's enemy

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Speaker 1: situation or is Mueller making a theological point about where

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Speaker 1: the real crisis lies.

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Speaker 2: No, in the matter of the Society of Pious that

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Speaker 2: tant I agree with Cardinal Mueller. The society represents people

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Speaker 2: who are upset with the direction of the Church, beginning

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Speaker 2: with Archbishop I forever following the Council. But you cannot

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Speaker 2: question the legitimacy of the Council. The Council is a

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Speaker 2: legitimate ecumenical council of the Church. It was carried on

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Speaker 2: with papal approval. Therefore, you can examine its teachings and

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Speaker 2: you can, let's say, have theological discussions about the correct

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Speaker 2: understanding of those teachings in relation to previous teachings, and

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Speaker 2: Cardinal Muller has said there were endless discussions. For me.

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Speaker 2: The solution would be Pope Leo to call in the

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Speaker 2: superiors of the group and say to them, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to give you a list of five or ten propositions

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Speaker 2: and you have to accept them, and if you do

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Speaker 2: accept them, we'll give full regularization to your society. And

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Speaker 2: if you don't, we're going to excommunicate anybody who won't

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Speaker 2: accept them. Because this can't go on like this. You

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Speaker 2: can't have a separatist movement which is existing parallel to

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Speaker 2: the Church and causing may among people who like the

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Speaker 2: Latin Mass and others. It just doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 2: And Poet Francis was kind of conciliatory, but even that's

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Speaker 2: unsatisfactory because you know, people say, well, what is the story.

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Speaker 2: Is the pious tenth group something that's legitimate, and now

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Speaker 2: we tell people, well, they're legitimate priests, they get valid sacraments,

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Speaker 2: but on the other hand, they are not in submission

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Speaker 2: to the proper authority of the Church.

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Speaker 1: Well, the challenge here, the other piece of the Mueller

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Speaker 1: critique that I think he underscores the need. They've created

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Speaker 1: a market, if you will, for the society of pious

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Speaker 1: the tenth by so alienating people who are drawn to

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Speaker 1: tradition in the fullness of the Catholic Church, they made

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Speaker 1: them feel alien and unwelcome. So you've created a marketplace.

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Speaker 1: And when you get a marketplace like this, it's often

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Speaker 1: its own silo. Yeah, they start to they start to

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Speaker 1: have their own ideas, and as you said, it can

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Speaker 1: become a separatist movement, and it shouldn't be. They should

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Speaker 1: all be partners, should be normalized in part of the

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Speaker 1: wider church. But the church has to meet them halfway

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Speaker 1: and say, look, we respect the traditions that we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to protect and treasure, and we love that you are

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Speaker 1: extending those. But as you said, here are the criteria

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Speaker 1: for full communion and you need to meet them. Bob,

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Speaker 1: you want to add anything.

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Speaker 3: Well, after Father Murray speaks, of course, there's very little

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Speaker 3: to be said about question. But you know, there are

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Speaker 3: always these these emphasies in the church. I mean, people

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Speaker 3: kind of hive off into different emphasies that they want

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Speaker 3: to promote. Yeah, I think that the question of how

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Speaker 3: to handle these more traditional groups has been mishandled. It's

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Speaker 3: partly because of the way that Pope Francis has wanted

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Speaker 3: to kind of give the impression of accepting everybody but

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Speaker 3: not really coming to clear definitions about what's there. And

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Speaker 3: you know, to go back to another thing that father said,

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Speaker 3: I think that we need that clarity of definition because actually, know,

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Speaker 3: there's a famous saying that you distinguish to unite. If

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Speaker 3: we're all walking around in a cloud, we don't know

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Speaker 3: actually what we are, right, but if we have we

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Speaker 3: have kind of borders, and we have kind of things

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Speaker 3: that we know, you know, we don't we don't look

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Speaker 3: at Lutherans and say, hey, you guys are really kind

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Speaker 3: of Catholic, you know, you know, we're really all the

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Speaker 3: same thing. Now, we don't do that, and they wouldn't

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Speaker 3: want us to do that either. So those clear borders

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Speaker 3: almost paradoxically help with unity in a strange way. But

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Speaker 3: it remains to be seen if Leo is going to

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Speaker 3: be a strong enough leader to assert that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: I want to move on to Emmanuel Macron and France.

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Speaker 1: Macron wants to spend three million euros to quote modernize

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Speaker 1: Notre Dame Cathedral with contemporary art after the restoration, the

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Speaker 1: French presidents moving forward with plans to replace those gorgeous

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century Gothic style stained glass windows with those of

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Speaker 1: a quote more contemporary gesture. As he famously stated in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen after the fire nearly destroyed the place, Notre

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Speaker 1: Dame is one of the great achievements of Catholic architecture.

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Speaker 1: So far. At least three hundred and twenty five thousand

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Speaker 1: signatures guys have been gathered in a petition to halt

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Speaker 1: the recavation. Bob, your reaction to this modernization.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I am. I'm a little bit optimistic that this

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Speaker 3: is not going to work. Because even the societies for

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Speaker 3: the Historic Preservation of French culture, they're looking down on this.

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Speaker 3: There's a strong, strong popular reaction, not only in France

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Speaker 3: but internationally. I looked at those stained glass windows and

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Speaker 3: I kind of surprised myself. I thought that they're actually pretty,

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Speaker 3: but they don't belong in Notre Dame. Tom is a

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Speaker 3: medieval structure and it is a monument to a certain

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Speaker 3: age and a certain spirit in the church. And to

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Speaker 3: bring those things in as kind of extraneous, it's just

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Speaker 3: even artistically, it doesn't work. They are sore thumbs. We've

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Speaker 3: already seen how some like the main altar and some

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Speaker 3: other things.

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Speaker 1: I was just about to mention that.

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Speaker 3: They're kind of you know, there are these modernist elements

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Speaker 3: that they just don't work. My wife is an artist,

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Speaker 3: she's here's an iconographer, and whenever we walk into a

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Speaker 3: church through the first time, she just starts looking around

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Speaker 3: and says, that doesn't work with that. There's no harmony here,

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Speaker 3: there's no unity. You don't just throw a jumble together.

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Speaker 3: And why do this in the first place. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's a modernist artist again, I want to say, some

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Speaker 3: of those designs. To my surprise, I thought were pretty

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Speaker 3: she's not a believer. I don't know what kind of

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Speaker 3: spirit comes out of being a non believer. And you're

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Speaker 3: creating art for a Catholic cathedral that is eight hundred

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Speaker 3: years old, and so why do this? Why do this

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Speaker 3: except to kind of introduce an element of discord in

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Speaker 3: one of the central cultural artifacts as well as religious

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Speaker 3: artist efects of your country. It makes no sense with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, father, I mean, you had that hideous modern alter

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Speaker 1: it looks like a tub or something, a big black

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Speaker 1: tub where you had a beautiful wide altar there since

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Speaker 1: the renovation. That's offensive enough, and it's in conflict with

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Speaker 1: the medieval architecture the whole spirit of the place. I mean,

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Speaker 1: are the windows of further trajectory down that path of

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Speaker 1: kind of creating discord disharmony with what's already present.

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Speaker 2: It is and it reflects a conception that Notre Dame

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Speaker 2: Cathedral is like French cultural heritage being updated to include

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Speaker 2: current French interests. So that's not what it's supposed to be.

431
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: And Bob's wife and Bob are absolutely correct the question

432
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 2: does that work in this building? And of course that

433
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 2: altar doesn't. It's an imposition. It's an eyesore, and it's

434
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: sad to say good art both attracts and disappears at

435
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 2: the same time. The message is what's supposed to be communicated,

436
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,239
Speaker 2: not the form so much in and of itself. And

437
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: when the form is not appropriate to a place, then

438
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: it draws all the attention and it basically says, I'm

439
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 2: looking at this because this is not what I expected,

440
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: and it really doesn't fit in here. Those windows, by

441
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: the way, they have nothing to do with the history

442
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: of Notre Dame. And it wasn't the whole idea of

443
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: rebuilding to reclaim what had been destroyed by the fire,

444
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 2: So why would you try to put in something that

445
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the history of it. Of course,

446
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: it reflects the fact that leaders such as Macron liked

447
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: to leave their signature behind and for him, these figures

448
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: in the pictures that I've seen that Bob Show also saw.

449
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: They might be do well in a modern museum somewhere,

450
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: or you know, an art gallery, but they don't belong

451
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: in Notre Dame Cathedral.

452
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's like the National Cathedral in Washington. Bob,

453
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: you go and you see, you know that they have

454
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: all these Gothic heads protruding from the spire. There there's

455
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: Darth Vader hanging out, you know. At West's Cathedral. They've

456
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: got Martin Luther King in one of the naves. I mean,

457
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: there is a modernism that starts to creep in, and

458
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: you wonder where do you draw the line here and

459
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: does it begin to intrude on what the thing was

460
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: built to house and extend through time. The other big

461
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: story of the week the verdict handed down by Hong

462
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: Kong's High Court finding Catholic businessman and democracy advocate Jimmy

463
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: Lai guilty of collusion with foreign entities and sedition under

464
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: China's National Security law. The seventy eight year old media mogul,

465
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: founder of Apple Daily, huge newspaper, now faces life in prison.

466
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: Here's what's chilling. The judge said his real crime was

467
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: that he harbored resentment and hatred of the People's Republic

468
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: of China and sought to quote the downfall of the

469
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party. The verdict was well over eight hundred

470
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: pages long, essentially saying that publishing a pro democracy paper

471
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 1: and meeting with the American officials equals conspiracy. Bob, what

472
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: does this conviction mean for the church in China, and

473
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: what should the Vatican's response be.

474
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, there ought a beer response. I mean,

475
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 3: the Vatican has been remarkably silent about the persecution of

476
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 3: one of the bravest Catholic lay people in the world

477
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 3: at this point. I mean, Jimmy is a billionaire. He

478
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 3: could easily he has a British passport, he could easily

479
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: have left the country, but he chose to stay there

480
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: and and and face the music, so to speak, because

481
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 3: he was he was a believer. I mean, he he

482
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: has talked explicitly about his Catholic faith being an underpinning

483
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 3: for what he's trying to do in terms of freedom

484
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 3: of religion, et cetera in China. As as our friend

485
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: Bill mcgern has said, who is who was Jimmy Eli's

486
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 3: godfather when he came into our church? That you know

487
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: this is a sham. We know that this is all

488
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: a sham, and that the Chinese Communist Party had a

489
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: predetermined result that was going to come out of it.

490
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: What I hope is that the United States, through President

491
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 3: Trump and perhaps Keir Starmer from the UK, can impose,

492
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: can convince the Chinese government to let him go. He's

493
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 3: very ill right now. He may not survive very much

494
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: time more time in prison. He's elderly, he's in his

495
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 3: late seventies. Yeah, if they could, if they could persuade

496
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: the Chinese government to allow him to be deported, he

497
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: could go back to England, or he could come here

498
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: to the United States. I'm afraid they're not going to

499
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 3: do that because he would continue to be a voice

500
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: speaking out against them. But he in prison is something

501
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 3: all of us ought to pray for, and just I

502
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: don't know what is going to do this other than

503
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: some intervention of divine grace that he's just been allowed

504
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 3: not to serve the rest of his life in prison.

505
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: Father Jimmy Laie, as Bob mentioned as a Catholic, keeps

506
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: baptized by Cardinal Joseph Zen. Cardinal end was in the

507
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: courtroom as that verdict was read. Jimmy Lai has been

508
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: in solitary confinement for like eighteen hundred days. His family

509
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: says his health is rapidly declining. The judges say he

510
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: used Apple Daily his paper to pollute reader's minds with

511
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: hatred of the government. Now President Trump's already asked g

512
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: about this, and he says he'll continue to do so.

513
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: Is that Lie's greatest hope at this moment? And do

514
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: you think the Vatican China deal has silenced the Vatican

515
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: in a way because he's Poplio met with the family,

516
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: but not a statement, nothing from the Vatican.

517
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

518
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: I agree that that's remarkable that the Vatican hasn't said anything,

519
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: particularly because Jimmy Lai is a very devout Catholic and

520
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: very faithful and his faith inspired in many way love

521
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: of freedom. I mean, he's a businessman and then got

522
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: into journalism and then you know, decided that he wanted

523
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 2: to help people who By the way, we're asking the

524
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: Chinese communist government to observe the protocol they had signed

525
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: with Great Britain for the handofid Right, there's nothing subversive

526
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: about calling a government to be faithful to what it

527
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: had agreed to. But of course, in the strange world

528
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: of communism, black and white are interchangeable day by day.

529
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: It's also interesting that the judge is like commenting on

530
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: the mental state of Jimmy Lai, so that he basically

531
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: convinced you telling us everything to to we already know

532
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: thought crime is the big enemy. The communism faces and

533
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: why is that Because communism is an empty ideology. It's

534
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: basically a mass for the power of the people in charge.

535
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: And they don't like to be criticized. Well, guess what.

536
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: In the real world, criticism helps you be better. And

537
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: that's one reason I'm happy to be on this podcast,

538
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: because I know we criticize people, but it's done out

539
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: of love. We're not here to tell people your horrible person,

540
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: get out of my own No, that's not what we do, right,

541
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: They this thing is not right, let's change it. And

542
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: certainly I hope President Trump. I think Bob is right.

543
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: Trump and Starmer in England they ought to say, hey, look,

544
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: you want to do business with the Western world, you

545
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: can't treat your people like this. Yeah, is wrong, just embarrassing. Yeo, man,

546
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: if you can't, if you can't tolerate someone writing an

547
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: op ed against you, what are you telling us about

548
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: the stability of your government? Do we really want to

549
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 2: be doing dealing with you?

550
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, you got to let him go. I mean

551
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: they've made their point. I mean eight hundred Can you

552
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: imagine an eight hundred page verdict? I mean the mental

553
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: somersaults in that thing. It's laughable. I mean it is laughing.

554
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 1: The verdict is laughable, the reasoning is worse, and it's

555
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: an embarrassment to g And that's why there is a

556
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: shred of hope here that maybe the world can embarrass

557
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: you to just make the Jimmy Laie question go away

558
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: so he doesn't keep hearing about it. Right now, it's

559
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 1: international headlines, and thank God for those who have made it.

560
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about celebrity for a moment.

561
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: We saw a Rob Reiner and his wife horribly killed

562
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: by their son. It appears he's allegedly the knife man

563
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: in this horrible tragedy. But when we were talking about

564
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: Jimmy Lai and criticism, it made me think of Rob Reiner.

565
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: Now I knew Rob Reiner a little bit. He did

566
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: Laura Ingram show. I ran into him at some restaurants

567
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: in airports, and you know, we had friendly conversations with

568
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: one another. We didn't disagree. We didn't agree on almost

569
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: anything except art, I think. But you can have civil

570
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: conversations with people, even those will hold their position so tightly,

571
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: but you have to be willing to engage civilly. And

572
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: I think that's the at the heart of the Jimmy

573
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: Lai controversy. A regime that simply will not allow conversation

574
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: or freedom of thought or expression. Thank God, we're in

575
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: a country in the United States where we have that

576
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: and we must defend that. I think, no matter where

577
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: it takes this and no matter how uncomfortable it is

578
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: at times. But there was a big name conversion to

579
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: Catholicism this week that made headlines. Last week in Chicago,

580
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: MS now's Rachel Maddow openly gay. She's in a same

581
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: sex marriage. One of the most liberal voices on television,

582
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: she told a live audience that she has returned to

583
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church after nearly three decades away. She said

584
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: she was born and raised in a conservative Catholic family,

585
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: she left when she came out as a lesbian, and

586
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: now she credits Pope Francis and Pope Leo for bringing

587
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: her back. Father. Your reaction to the news, well.

588
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm always happy as she was baptized a Catholic I

589
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: discovered by that news. I'm always happy when people return

590
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: to the practice of the faith. But the question is,

591
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: is that's what she's doing, because if she's continuing to

592
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,479
Speaker 2: live in a pseudo false marriage, and engaging in the

593
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: sins that accompany homosexual activity, then she should not be

594
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: receiving communion. And she can't go to confession and confess

595
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: that sin if she intends to keep doing it. So

596
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: you can't have self defined Catholicism where what my particular

597
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: sins are acceptable for me, and I don't care what

598
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: you think. That's not the way it is. Religion, according

599
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: to the Catholic faith is a gift from God that

600
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: we embrace in its entirety. So if she has the impression,

601
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: which sad to say, easy to get. When Pope Francis

602
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: says you can bless homosexual couples, what people say is

603
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: we guess being a homosexual couples all right. The Pope

604
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: thinks it's good. Being a homosexual couple is not all right.

605
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: You are not allowed to commit evil sins with one

606
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: another and then claim to be doing God's will. And

607
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: I hope and pray that Rachel Maddow is going to

608
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: reform her life because publicly she's known by this marriage

609
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 2: to be in defiance of Catholic teaching.

610
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: Bob Rachel Maddow specifically said Pope Leo's witness on immigration

611
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: and the timing of Leo's election an American pope focused

612
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: on immigrant rights after Francis, she said, quote it was

613
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: like it was grown in a lab to radicalize American

614
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: Catholics end quote. So this focus on on immigration is

615
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: really what seems to be the driver here. What do

616
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: you make of this? And to which church is she

617
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: returning or does she think she's returning?

618
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the confusion in her mind. I'm sure

619
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: she is not a student of theology, so we can

620
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: kind of put that aside for the moment. It's all

621
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 3: based on these kind of politicized elements that exist in

622
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 3: the church. And while the church does take certain positions

623
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: that have political consequences, they clearly have to be controlled

624
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: by the main religious thrust. The father was just talking about.

625
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 3: You know, when I heard about this, it reminded me

626
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: there's a passage in C. S. Lewis's famous book The

627
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: Screwtape Letters, where you know, a devil is instructing his

628
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: younger nephew about how to bring people into hell. And

629
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 3: what he says is, look what you do, because you

630
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: don't want to set off alarm bells, is what you

631
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 3: do is you make the faith about Christianity and something else,

632
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: and then little by little you make the something else

633
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 3: the more important part of the thing, and the Christianity

634
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: of the secondary part of the thing. And you know,

635
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 3: it can be all sorts of different things. It can

636
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: be a liberation theology, it can be you can be

637
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 3: immigration or you know, gays, whatever it's going to be.

638
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: But I think that Lewis was such a perceptive person

639
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 3: that right there is really the nub of it that

640
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 3: if you're coming back because the church is okay on immigration,

641
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 3: suppose the Poe comes out tomorrow and says, well, wait

642
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: a minute, now, I've studied the actual facts on the ground,

643
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: and I think there really is a problem in the

644
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: United States with all these people who came in illegally. Well,

645
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: what is she going to do? Is she going to

646
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 3: drop out of the church again? At that point, it

647
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: just shows that the basis of what she thinks is

648
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 3: religion has morphed into something else. And again, this is

649
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: why we need that clarity, that clarity of definition.

650
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: I want to tell you about a wonderful Christmas gift

651
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: for a child this year, and it captures what Christmas

652
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: is all about. It's called Little Louise Christmas Miracle. When

653
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: Sister Johannah learns that the organist for midnight Mass is

654
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: not going to arrive, she prays at the crache for

655
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: a miracle. Little Louise Christmas Miracle is the true story

656
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 1: of a young boy who saved the day on Christmas

657
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: Eve in nineteen twenty five at the Church of the

658
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: Assumption in downtown Saint Paul, Minnesota. It's published by Regina

659
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: Magazine and this timeless story is sure to delight and

660
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: inspire young souls. The illustrations are beautiful. One reviewer says,

661
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: the story of Little Louis rekindles the beauty of childlike

662
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: faith and God's providence. A perfect Christmas read for families

663
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: who wish to pass on faith, tradition, and the splendor

664
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: of sacred music. You can find Little Louis Christmas Miracle

665
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: online at Regina Magazine dot org or on Amazon. And

666
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: while you're on Amazon, the Spider who Saved Christmas is

667
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 1: still there. Father. Illinois Governor J. B. Pritzker just signed

668
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 1: a medical aid in dying law physician assisted suicide, making

669
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: Illinois the first Midwest state to legalize it. The Catholic

670
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 1: Conference of Illinois strongly opposed it, called it a threat

671
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable people among us. Pritzker even told

672
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,919
Speaker 1: reporters he brought the issue up with Pope Leo during

673
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: their November meeting and acknowledge they may disagree on some things.

674
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: Pritzker says he's been deeply impacted by stories of people

675
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: suffering from terminal illnesses as justification for signing the bill

676
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: into law, Father, what is happening here and why allow

677
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: Pritzker into a private papal audience just before he signs this?

678
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the Pope does have to meet government

679
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: officials from countries all over the world and states, and

680
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: he doesn't agree with what they say and do. It

681
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: would have been better if Pritzker had just acknowledged that

682
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: he and the Pope disagree on this, rather than trying

683
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: to make light of it. It seems he did that part.

684
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: I won't criticize. I don't think that's wrong for the

685
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: Pope to meet with him. What I will say is

686
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: the following. The United States of America is in deep

687
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: trouble because the people in charge in too many places

688
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: do not share a view that human life is valuable

689
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: in and of itself and is not disposable at the

690
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: will of the government or of individual citizens. So this

691
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: is what abortion brings us. This is why in vietrafertilization

692
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: is wrong because it's involves aboarding excess conceived children. This

693
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 2: is why assisted suicide is wrong. Medical aid in dying.

694
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: What that means is we're authorizing the medical community to

695
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: kill people. Because medical aid and dying that basically means

696
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: the doctor is going to inject you with something in

697
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 2: your arm. Well, that's what we do with death row.

698
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: I mean this death is being given here as a

699
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 2: remedy to personal suffering and to psychological distress. If that's

700
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: the case, why restrict it to determinedly ill? Why and

701
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: that inevitably happens. So look, the Nazis did this in Germany.

702
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: They use the a euthanasia program as they would say

703
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: social hygiene. We don't use that language because it's so shocking,

704
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: but this is base what we're saying in America, if

705
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: you don't feel happy, go kill yourself.

706
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: We don't care. That's wrong.

707
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, only wrong.

708
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: Twelve states and d C have either embraced or considering this.

709
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: New York Governor Kathy Hochel just vowed to sign a

710
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: doctor assistant Suicide bill in New York. So it's becoming

711
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: normalized in American culture. And here's my question to you, Bob,

712
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: why has the church spent so little energy on this

713
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: while spending so much energy on a prudential judgment like

714
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: immigration policy. Yeah.

715
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: Look, I mean it began with the abortion debate. I

716
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 3: mean we just had in Chicago and Illinois that horrible

717
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 3: attempt to give Dick Durbin an award for a lifetime

718
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 3: Achievement award because he was good on immigration, although he's

719
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 3: bad on marriage and homoseeconuality and abortion. Look, we're killing

720
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 3: almost a million babies in the womb already a year

721
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 3: here in the United States and have been for decades, right,

722
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 3: and now this process begins, and we can see in

723
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: countries where it's already been implemented. Up in Canada, if

724
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: I'm not mistaken about this, I think death by sister

725
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 3: physician assisted suicide is now the fourth leading cause of

726
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,439
Speaker 3: death in Canada. Once you step outside that natural law

727
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 3: where you value every human life because it is made

728
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: in the imagion likeness of God, you step down, you

729
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 3: step right out onto the slippery, slippery slope, and it's

730
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 3: clear to me that we're going to start to see

731
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 3: other reasons why people should be executed. Essentially, you know,

732
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,479
Speaker 3: it's a burden on society. It's life unworthy of life.

733
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 3: The way the Nazis spoke about it. You're burdening your

734
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: family instead of you know, getting out of the way

735
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 3: and leaving human resources, you know, your your inheritance to

736
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 3: your children or whatnot. There's going to be terrible, terrible

737
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: consequences of this because we're going to start to see

738
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 3: that there are all sorts of reasons why we ought

739
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: to kill people because it looks like it's a social advantage.

740
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 3: It's the further step of the devil in our Western societies.

741
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's deeply troubling, father, that this becomes the emphasis.

742
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: But again, you have a statement issued by the Conference

743
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: of a state. Meanwhile, Minnesota Auxiliary Bishop and I'm not

744
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: picking on him, it's just one instance of what we're

745
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: seeing where you see direct activism as opposed to a

746
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: statement coming out of a bunch of bureaucrats. Minnesota Auxiliary

747
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: Bishop Kevin Kinney of Saint Paul, Minneapolis, he led a

748
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: prayer service in the wake of the detention of a

749
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 1: local parent of a Catholic school student who was arrested

750
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: by ice during the prayer service. He worried Mexican flag poncho,

751
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: and Bishop Kinney seem to suggest that blessed salt could

752
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: quote make ice go away. He said this, in the

753
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,479
Speaker 1: Old Testament, you sprinkle that salt, you rid the area

754
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: of evil and bad happenings. I would recommend that you

755
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: bring salt to church with you and have it blessed,

756
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: and share it with your neighbors, to sprinkle around Holmes

757
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: Parish's cars. It does offer protection. Maybe if we put

758
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: salt on the sidewalk, the ice will disappear. End quote. Father, Look,

759
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: I'm off a pastoral outreach, but he's suggesting here that

760
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: blessed salt will make federal immigration enforcement disappear. Where's the

761
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: line between pastoral care and political theater.

762
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, certainly he's making a joke about salt

763
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: melting ice, and that's not really the right thing to

764
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 2: do at this point. Secondly, why is that person being detained?

765
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: Because if it's an illegal detention, meaning that the government

766
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: doesn't have a case to hold it, then you hire

767
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: lawyers and you go to court. If it's a legal detention,

768
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: then you have to ask yourself the prior question, why

769
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: was that person illegally in the United State? How did

770
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: that happen? And then you deal with a debate on

771
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 2: the basis of that. The premise there, they say, of

772
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: too much of the discussion is the government has no

773
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: right to evict anyone who's illegally in this country because

774
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: they want to stay here, and we should let them

775
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: do that. Well, if that's your premise, go out and

776
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: fight for that at the next election. But don't accuse

777
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: Ice of being evil because they're enforcing the laws pass

778
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: the United States. This notion that uncontrolled immigration is a

779
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: right to foreigners just doesn't hold water. That's not Catholic teaching.

780
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I also I'm not wild about using sacramentals

781
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: or encouraging the use of sacramentals in a political in

782
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: a political battle of wills, that's not It really doesn't

783
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: have a place there. Bob, the Mexican flag, poncho, the

784
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: salt stuff. Does that advance the church's mission on immigration

785
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 1: or does it look like the Church is engaging in partisanship?

786
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: Should we be surprised when Leo takes every opportunity to

787
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: comment on the immigration policy whenever he's in your microphone.

788
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this the other day.

789
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 3: You know, I've mentioned before that I've been asked to

790
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 3: testified to the bishops a couple of times about immigration,

791
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: and I remember one of them, and I think a

792
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: number of them think this way. One of them said

793
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 3: to me that crossing the border illegally is is like jaywalking.

794
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 3: You know, it's not all that serious offense. It's a

795
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 3: civil offense, it's not a criminal offense. That may be true,

796
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 3: but there's no bishop in the world to my knowledge,

797
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: who is advocating for jaywalking. You know, why is it

798
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: that this particular violation of law is regarded as somehow

799
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 3: sacricanct and that trying to push back on this is

800
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 3: regarded as somehow the equivalent of not being pro life.

801
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 3: You know, we see these things kind of all put together.

802
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 3: You know, we've talked in the past about about capital

803
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 3: punishment and about abortion, but somehow this this issue too

804
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 3: is kind of leaked into the the same program. And

805
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: it's because there aren't clear distinctions being made here. It's

806
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 3: the only I can't think of another instance in our

807
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 3: society where someone breaking some law, however minor, is being

808
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 3: championed by our church, or at least there's a large

809
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 3: number of people in our church, I think. And by

810
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: the way, I don't think that this is going to succeed.

811
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 3: It's not succeeding here, it's not succeeding in Europe. There's

812
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 3: a real threat to our societies in this overwhelming illegal

813
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 3: immigration that has taken place to the degree that it

814
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 3: actually has. I mean, we've got our own poor who

815
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 3: are looking for housing for medical treatment, and we're ending

816
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 3: up paying for a large number of illegal people who

817
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: are here. Look, I'm sympathetic to them. I'm a product

818
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: of immigrants, but legal immigrants to the country, and I

819
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: understand why people want to come to America because this

820
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 3: is a great place to live. Is some people say,

821
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 3: if you can live in the United States in twenty

822
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 3: twenty five, you've won the human lottery. You're living in

823
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 3: one of the best countries in the history of the

824
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 3: human race. But to ignore the legal system, which by

825
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 3: the way, is what has given us this wonderful country

826
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: that we have, it goes against I think a lot

827
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 3: of what the church should be standing well.

828
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: And the reason, Bob, you have huge pieces of the

829
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: church moving in that direction is because the bishops and

830
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: the priests have given such visible witness to it, such

831
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: vivacity and energy is poured into this issue. Jesus didn't

832
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: come to set immigration policy for the Roman Empire. He

833
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: didn't mention it. That's not what he's here for. He

834
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: came to save souls. And I do worry. Now you've

835
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: got all of this legislation coming down the pike. They're

836
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: going to be killing old people in every municipality in

837
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: the United States. Before long, that will be the law

838
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: of the land. And the bishops and the priests who

839
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: didn't raise their voice for that, that suffering community that

840
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: will go on and on and on. This immigration policy

841
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: be settled, but that will be with us, I think forever.

842
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: And it's a grave sin and a blight on the

843
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: Church that they haven't poured the same amount of energy

844
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: into defending the cause of life human life. Then you

845
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: can argue about immigration policy down the line, but when

846
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: something is seminal as life is under attack, you've got

847
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: to focus on that. Here's a story that I'm sure

848
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: Father's going to gain the attention of some of the conference,

849
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: the Bishop's Conference. The Department of Homeland Security is moving

850
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 1: to halt Catholic Charities of the Rio Grand Valley from

851
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: receiving federal funds for six years. This affects Sister Norma

852
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 1: Pimantel's migrant aid programs directly. That nun was often referred

853
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: to as Pope Francis's favorite. Not what do you make

854
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: of this? Father? How do you see this?

855
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: Well, if the government can prove that funds were misused,

856
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: and I don't know the details on this, but we

857
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 2: live in a legal system. So if the government makes

858
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 2: that allegation, then the part these were affected harmed harmed

859
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: by it can sue in return, so there is a

860
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: remedy and then maybe there's an administrative remedy within the department.

861
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,479
Speaker 2: But uh, you know this is this is a legal matter.

862
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,959
Speaker 2: If the government acts, it's because the government has reason.

863
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: Now they're not always right, and thank god we have

864
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 2: a system tax balances. So but no, if funds were

865
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: used legally or done things that were not authorized by

866
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 2: the by the funding agency in this case, the government,

867
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: then just punishments are provided were in the law.

868
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 4: Bob, anything to add, well, I think that there we

869
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 4: don't know enough yet about this, and I think we

870
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 4: were going to have it's probably going to come down

871
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 4: to we're going to see why it is that the

872
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: Biden administration was getting so much money to them, and

873
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 4: then now that the.

874
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: Trump administration is trying to establish a more austere government

875
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 3: and get a grip on immigration, why they feel that

876
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 3: there's a change necessary here. But that very fact that

877
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 3: they're saying for six years, it sounds like there must

878
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 3: have been some you know, malfeasans. But I'm not going

879
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 3: to pronounce that until we No, that's up for them

880
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 3: to prove.

881
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've got to prove every allegation and you know,

882
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: and will likely, as Father's mentioned, be challenged in court

883
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: before we run out of time. Besides the consistory that

884
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: comes at the very top of January, what should our

885
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 1: Posse family be focused on in the new year? And

886
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: what do you consider the best and worst story of

887
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five? Father, I'll start with you. You can

888
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: take it anywhere.

889
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: Well, I'm tempted to say the best story is the

890
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: prayerful Posse on a Royal Grande coming to you via YouTube.

891
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: I'm tempted to say that because you're I admire you, Raym,

892
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: because you're getting into this sphere of communication with so

893
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 2: many people using so effectively. So that's a little tongue

894
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: in cheek to say it, but yeah, certainly I'm very

895
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 2: happy to be part of that. No, I think obviously

896
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: the story of the year was, you know, the sadness

897
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: of seeing the decline in post Francis as he suffered

898
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: all those illnesses and his hospitalization and then his death,

899
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: and then electing the first American pope that you know,

900
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 2: that is unbelievable story. In the context, you and I

901
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: talked about this, and Bob many times we thought, if

902
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 2: there's going to be an American pope, it'll be a

903
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 2: century from now insteady one now. So you know, among

904
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: the worst things would have to be the attempt to

905
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: kill a President Trump. Now, I know that was occurring

906
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: before the election, but the violence that has continued since then,

907
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: such as the Minneapolis school shooting, the killing of the

908
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: National guard in Washington to guards a woman, the other

909
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: attacks that we've had, the violence in this country. This

910
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 2: is what a country without God is, a country of

911
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: violent people killing each other. We have to stop that.

912
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: We have to preach the truth. We have to restrain

913
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 2: those who don't agree to respect rights. But we cannot

914
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,919
Speaker 2: go on like this because otherwise we're going to become

915
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: worse than the Wild West. I mean, there will be sheriff.

916
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 2: They're just going to be people with guns killing each other.

917
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: Wow, Bob, you're best and worst, and what should we

918
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: look forward to in twenty twenty six?

919
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: You know, the best for me is that all my

920
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 3: family are Catholic, and that's a private best I think,

921
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 3: and we remain Catholic, and their children are Catholic, and

922
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 3: you know, that's what it's all about. But look, if

923
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 3: we want to talk in large scale terms, I'm really impressed.

924
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 3: I'm happy that Cardinal Newman became Saint John Henry Newman

925
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 3: and is now Doctor of the Church of John Henry Newman,

926
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: because there's some people have said Sant Augustine was the

927
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 3: great mind of the early Church, same time as Aquinas

928
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 3: was the great mind of the medieval Church. And Newman

929
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 3: is the great modern mind. And the reason why he's

930
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 3: important is that he's got the right view of what

931
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,959
Speaker 3: human conscience is, about the value of truth above all,

932
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 3: about the nature of the Catholic Church that has been

933
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 3: established by God. I think all these things are extremely

934
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 3: important for the Church and the world. To know about

935
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 3: it at the point. So yeah, thank God that this

936
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 3: process took place. There are only thirty eight Doctors of

937
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 3: the Church, and we in our time have now proclaimed

938
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 3: an English speaking doctor of the Church. Was very important

939
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: for the modern world. And my worst story, Raymond, among

940
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 3: many that we could point to out there, is the

941
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 3: situation in Nigeria, the continually martyrdom of Catholics and other

942
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 3: Christians to a degree. Just we say this over and

943
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 3: over again, there are more Christians killed in Nigeria martyred

944
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 3: in Nigeria every year now than in the rest of

945
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,479
Speaker 3: the world combined, and still there's very little attention paid

946
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 3: to it and little dune. So I think that that,

947
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 3: for me is the thing that needs most remedying at

948
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 3: this point.

949
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: For me, one of the best stories of the year

950
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: were the Titanic flood of young people coming to the faith,

951
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: whether that be Catholic faith or otherwise. But we've seen

952
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 1: an explosion of converts, young converts in the Catholic Church.

953
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: That is a great and I think underreported story that

954
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: will play out in time and into the new year.

955
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: The downside is, as your reference, Father, the horrendous violence

956
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: we're seeing throughout society, Charlie Kirk's murder, the Rhiners, I mean,

957
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: the explosive jihadi attacks all over the world, in Africa,

958
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: in Europe. This has got to end. But the only

959
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: way you get there is by showing and witnessing civility

960
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: and truth and insisting that we adhere to the laws

961
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: of the land so people can live freely and in love.

962
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: And if we don't do that, we're going to collapse

963
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: into as you said, people just killing each other and

964
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: we can't have that. And hopefully the young people that

965
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: are coming to this faith will find the faith they're

966
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 1: truly looking for and the one that attracted them. That's

967
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: the challenge I think for the church in the year

968
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: to come and the story we'll be keeping our eyes on. Posse.

969
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: I'm grateful to you as always. If you want more

970
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo

971
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 1: Gande Show on our YouTube channel or the Arroyo Gande

972
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: podcast wherever you get yours. Gentlemen, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year,

973
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: and we will see you all in it on behalf

974
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: of Father Terry Murray Robert Royal. Until the Posse rides again.

975
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: Stay the course and follow the light. I'm Raymond Arroyo.

976
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,240
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. The Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse

977
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: is produced in partnership with VP Studios and iHeart Podcasts,

978
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: and we're available on the iHeartRadio, Apple, wherever you get

979
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: your podcasts