WEBVTT - How Charles Munn is Saving the Amazon 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.160 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.879 My chance to talk with artists, policy makers and performers, 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.520 to hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:24.320 change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Charles Munn's 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.320 quest to save the Amazon rests on a simple premise. 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.800 If people have a peak experience in nature, they'll be 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.680 more invested in protecting it. Over the past four decades, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.880 the conservation biologist has helped to preserve over twelve million 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.879 acres of rainforest in South America, home to what he 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:49.880 describes as the most biologically diverse protected areas on Earth. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.880 And I've been there. I went to Peru with Charles 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.880 Mount in two thousand to shoot a documentary for T 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:02.080 n T, directed by the Great Robert Drew. Months tours 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:07.919 are memorable, but the byproducts are better local jobs, community engagement, 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.959 and a surge in the value of the rainforest. Still, 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.640 for the son of a legendary Palm beach family, it's 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:19.920 a delicate balance between access and exploitation, one he prepared 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.199 for in a different type of jungle. I was working 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:25.679 for the Bronx Zoo or the Field Division of the 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.280 Bronx Zoo, which is the headquarters are really what calls 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:32.680 itself the Wildlife Conservation Society before the New York Well 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.160 it was it was the New York Zoological Society originally 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.399 and has several zoos and the aquarium and the Central 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.640 Park Zoo, the Bronx Zoo. The International Division does conservation 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.559 field work research on rare species, wildlife species, and mostly 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.400 the tropics and and some also temperate latitudes China, a 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.840 lot of a lot of countries around the world, usually 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.240 seventy countries they work in doing field conservation. So they're 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:56.960 one of the biggest conservation groups in the world that 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.640 headquartered in the Bronx Well, they're their headquarters of the 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.840 Bronx OOO. Yes, indeed, And how long have you been 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:05.320 working with them At the point that I met you, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.760 I've been working for them for sixteen years. At that point, 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.640 I was working in the Amazon the whole time. My 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.720 specialty was the Amazon and other parts of tropical South America. 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.160 And you grew up in suburban d C. In Baltimore area, 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.840 the Baltimore area. You lived on a piece of property 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.959 that was adjacent to some reserve that you became well, 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.639 I have a small conservation easement that I protected, um 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.640 fifty acres from development. It was going to be turned 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.480 into twenty or thirty houses, and I was able to 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.440 buy it when I was young and protected. And it 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.120 has a oak trees and other large asciduous trees that 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.040 are more than three ft thick, and so there is 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.040 I think it's the tallest, biggest forest. It's not a 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.120 big forest, but it's a fifty acres. But I think 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.000 of the biggest trees within a half an hour of 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.560 the Amtrak line between New York and Washington, I think 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:55.840 I think they're bigger than in any of the protected 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.320 areas of the Maryland state, or Pennsylvania or New York. 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.360 What was it about you when you were that age 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.560 that you decided you wanted to take money of yours 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.800 and buy land and preserve How old were you when 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.239 you executed that deal. Let's see, I think it must 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.440 have been sixteen or seventeen. I had to convince my 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.160 trustee to dip into what was going to be resources, 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:19.360 which I wasn't supposed to be able to do, but 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:21.280 since it was not a bad thing to do, he 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.680 eventually agree. Because I was already fanatical about protecting nature. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.360 What do you think it was mean most sixteen year olds, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.280 I think, isn't saying, oh, let's go by this fifty 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.200 acres of land with these wonderful trees adjacent to the 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.520 Amtrak line and preserve it. Why were you hitting in 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.920 that direction? I just think I had been hypnotized by 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.160 some very beautiful songbirds when I was nine year old boy, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.840 and truly, yeah, they just captivated me. And I always 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.080 felt since then that if I could, if other people 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.320 could see the birds as and other beautiful animals as 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.480 well as I did, they would also fall in love 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:55.120 with them and want to protect the habitat. So it's 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.080 as simple as that. Tell us about Chandler Robbins Well, 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.520 Shannon Robbins is appropriately named rob He was a great 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.800 ornithologist who were one of the best bird guides in 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.680 the history of the world. And he was worked for 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.800 the U. S. Government as a field biologist as a 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.160 bird scientist for them in Laurel, Maryland. When I was 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.520 a young boy, he was our idol because he would 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.680 come up to the Maryland Ornithological Society meeting is every 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.000 May in Ocean City and he would be like the 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.520 God when he would appear, so I'd go out birding 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.240 with him, you know, try to tag along with him 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.000 and other serious older birders and see if I could 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:32.640 learn something. But but where does this birding begin? Where 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.880 does your passion for this begin? Well, it's the white 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:40.760 throated sparrow and the myrtle warbler in breeding plumage. Specifically, 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.719 if you see either of those in breeding plumage up close, 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.440 it will change your life forever. And you were how 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.680 old when they change your life? And nine and you're 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.400 sitting in the backyard of your home, your family's home. Actually, 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.520 the white throated sparrow was at the neighbor's bird feeder 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:56.920 because on the wintertime they have a boring plumage and 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.400 then they switched to their breeding plumage. And that's pretty spectacular. 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.520 And merble warbler comes through in May every year and 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.000 it flies up through New York and Central Park and 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:07.880 you probably may tenth or so. And uh, that was 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:09.600 just an amazing bird. And I had no idea that 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.360 was not just one kind of warble. There were like 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.279 forty kinds of warblers you can see in one morning, 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:15.080 all heading up to Canada to breed in the summer. 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.480 So I was amazed all these beautiful butterflies, almost of 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.400 the bird world were coming through Maryland and going through 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:22.080 New York up to Canada. I didn't even know they 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.360 were there until my my stepbrother actually turned me onto this. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.600 He's he was a burger. He was in a in 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.719 a circle of serious burners, one of whom was one 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:31.960 of the biggest bird listers in the world, the case 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.800 Inner brothers. Actually both of the Casener brothers. So the 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.560 Casner's brothers were from Baltimore, and there some of the 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:39.080 as well. Yeah, I think there are maybe in the 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.800 top ten of the most bird species seen in their 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.920 lives in the world. One of them works for the 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.080 State Department only went it works, I think from Acormick Spices, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.039 so they can travel the world. Each have their excuse 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.000 to travel the world so they can bird more. And 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.400 your your stepbrother was how much older than you? He 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:56.960 was two years older than me. He's eleven. Yeah, describe 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.400 described me the mon household at the eleven year old 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.880 boy and the nine year old boy are so passionate 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.720 about birding. Well, he was in this circle drawn. My 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:11.840 stepbrother was in this circle with the Casener brothers. And 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.920 they were so fanatical. So he was fanatical because he 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:16.640 was in the same school with them. And then he 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.200 started showing me these things that, wow, what these things 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.240 are around here? I'll come over. No one ever told 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.920 me before. Were you raised by people that were fond 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.719 of this? Not particularly? I mean my mother liked like nature. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.680 My father died when I was three. So were you 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.360 raised by a stepfather? Yes, indeed, And was he a naturalist? Well, 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.400 he liked nature also, but it was really a drum 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.040 and the Casener brothers, that whole, that whole circle that 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.760 I sort of got involved with, and and that that 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:42.840 they turned me on too birding. It wasn't either of 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.280 my parents particularly or No. When you finish school as 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:48.720 a as a young man and you're about to go 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.360 to college, what what what becomes the path to you? Then? 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.280 What do you decide you want to do? I only 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.320 applied to to colleges and I got into both, and 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.719 I chose the one that had better bird watching, which 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.280 was which was Princeton out there and Hope both junction 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.000 in that area there was better bird washing. Well, yeah, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.360 there was. The The Institute for Advanced Study has a 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.880 beautiful forest right next to the Princeton University. R. Einstein 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.800 used to walk and stuff to think about relativity and whatnot, 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.600 other flying things and and so you went there and 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.560 got a degree in biology. I did. And then after that, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.600 what did you do? I wanted to continue working on 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.120 bird science, and I went to Oxford, got a master's there, 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.600 came back to Princeton in a PhD. Always in the Amazon, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:29.040 and I got stuck with the Amazon. I got the 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.640 Amazon bug, you might say, a lot in the good way. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.720 I became obsessed with with working in Amazon farm. Did 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:39.920 you first go there in seventy six, twenty one? I 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.520 guess I went with graduate students from Princeton. I was 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.880 a senior undergraduate and with John Turberg, who was the 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.720 professor that we all idolized, who was working in the 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:52.680 proving Amazon. So I was able to tag along with 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.840 him as a senior undergraduate. Your twenty one and you're 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.760 with Terborg in the Amazon, exactly proving Amazon is that 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:01.960 the place to go if you want to study birds 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.920 is the as opposed to the Brazil. Let's see, the 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.320 Amazon basin is the Amazon rainforest is the size of 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.760 the forty eight states. It has been cut, but seventy 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.000 eight percent is still standing. That's a lot of forest, 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:16.840 and so Brazil has the bulk of it. But after 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.960 Brazil it's Peru. Peru has two California is worth of rainforest. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.280 That's a lot of rainforests, and so it is some 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.160 of the highest quality rainforest in terms of species diversity 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:29.040 and being pristine. A lot of the uncontacted Indian tribes 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:31.080 left in the Amazon are in the pruving Amazon rather 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.199 than Brazil. Your work down there becomes what, well, it's 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:36.960 a if you give a mouse a cookie, I mean, 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.080 it's a one thing leads to another, sort of inexorably. 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.400 So if you're interested in birds, and working in the 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.679 Amazon is the one of the most amazing things you 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:47.400 can do if you're a bird scientist, because the bird 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.079 diversity there is much higher than than anywhere else in 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.000 the world. You'll have five hundred species of birds in 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.520 just a few square miles. They're only ten thousand in 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.120 the whole planet. And then one park I've worked in 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.679 has a thousand species of birds. The entire US and 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.800 Canada has an eight hundred and fifty. So this one 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.080 park about the size of Massachusetts has a thousand, has 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:06.760 ten percent of all the bird species in the world. 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.760 So once you're working there, you become spoiled. If you're 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.439 an ornithologist or bird scientists, you really want to continue 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:17.120 working in such a pretty much. And I was lucky 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.959 enough to work on mixed species flocks. What does that mean? Well, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.440 they are of the five bird species, three and thirty 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.280 live in the forest. Others live in lakes and river 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.000 banks and things. The threety that live in the forest 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:28.880 a third of them, more than a hundred species live 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.079 in mixed species flocks. So it's a very strange and 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.280 amazing thing to see. You can have seventy species of 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.640 birds in one flock at the same time, so and 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:38.400 it's and the best bird watching in those flocks in 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.160 the middle of the day. So it's like contrao. You 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.040 have to get up early a dawned to see the birds. Well, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.199 in the case of the flocks, the best flocks to 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:45.880 bird watcher in the middle of the day and the Amazon, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.280 you should be word watching the middle of the day 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.120 and have a late morning snack and a and a 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.200 mid afternoon snack. You should actually bird watch all through 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.559 the middle of the day. What's the area in the 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.440 United States and even just the forty eight if you will, 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.400 that has the most diversity of bird species. The part 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.880 of the US that has the most diversity of bird 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.640 species would be Texas and California. And they're amazing, uh 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.480 circles of crack birders in both states and they always 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.160 try to beat each other in the an annual counts 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:14.800 Christmas counts and try to see who wins. I think 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.440 it usually some of the Texas birding groups tend to win. 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.000 Which is the most number of birds you can see 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.960 in one day, So Texas is typically the winner. When 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.320 I met you in UM two thousand, my then wife 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.560 and I flew from New York to Miami and then 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.120 on to Peru and Puerto Maldonado, which I'm told has 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.480 changed dramatically. Well it's gotten a lot bigger. Yeah. And 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:37.959 then we went a very long journey on the boat 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.040 up the river. We get to this place. Had you 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.679 ever been there before? Had you worked with those people before? Oh? Yeah, 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.640 I mean that was a frequented That was a research 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.000 site that I stumbled upon thanks to some tips from 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.920 a local Bolivian Indian actually who was living in that 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:54.959 part of the Amazon. He was living Olivia has a 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.319 lot of Amazon forest too. They have about one and 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.920 a half California's worth, whereas Peru only has to California's worth. 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.800 So he took me off about that clay lick where 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.960 we watched macaws and parrots eating, and Uh, I thought 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:08.880 he was kidding me. But when I started, you know, 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.720 ask him difficult questions, he could answer them really quickly, 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:13.760 and so I said, well, he's onto something. So I 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:15.280 went up and looked at that area. So I found 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.359 that area a few years earlier thanks to local informants, 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.080 which is the way we get everything done, is by 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.319 relying on local people to give us great information that 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.040 they don't even know. Is that interesting? So when we 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.520 went there, I mean, the film is what it is. 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:33.199 Bob Drew, the famous documentarian and his wife Anne, we 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.720 make a movie about the illegal market in exotic birds 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.880 from that area. And how would you compare now what's 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.040 going on in that department to what we experienced seventeen 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.360 years ago. Is it's still a huge problem. Actually that 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.679 part of the proving Amazon The problem was already declining 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.520 when when we visited, because in part because of your visit, 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.480 uh and brought attention to the area, and so there 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.800 was more resources than more. More travelers visited the area. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.920 So the major concentrations of macaws and parrots at the 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.640 clay licks, we're all protected at that point by new parks, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.120 and so really that black market bird trade out of 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.400 southern Peru basically had stopped. It was more of a 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.880 question of central and northern Amazon and Peru because they 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.880 improving Amazon is so enormous. So actually things have gotten 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.400 much much better since you visited. What was the smuggling 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.600 like back then? They would bring those birds into the country. 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:33.320 How well, In fact, the major smuggling of parrots would 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.480 have been more out of Mexico and Central American countries 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.600 up through the border into the U s sneaking them 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.520 into the US. The smuggling of parrots wasn't so much 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.680 from South America to the US. There was a legal 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.400 export from some countries, not from Peru, which they BOLIVI 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.280 you next door until the nineteen eighties and the two 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.160 the US passed a law outlawing the importation of wild 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.240 caught exotic birds, and the New York's oological side he 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:02.880 played a role in that, so did I and helping 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.160 pass the national law because there are already some state 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:09.200 laws prohibiting exotic bird importation, so that that put an 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.040 end to a lot of the trapping because people couldn't 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.760 sell it to the US anymore. We actually we're greener 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.360 than the European Union. The European Union took many years 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.560 before they finally shut down the sort of nasty, cruel 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.320 bird trade. When people would bring them in, how would 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.640 they bring them in, Well, they would typically sneak them 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:31.400 in drugged so that they wouldn't be squawking and wiggling 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.080 and drawing attention to themselves. So they would they would 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.600 have them in suitcases or in a little a little 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.520 plastic PBC pipes that would be hidden, maybe in parts 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.000 of a car if you're driving across the border. One 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.520 guy who was smuggling ridiculously rare, very valuable mccaus out 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:51.480 of Bolivia. He was uh and Paraguay. In fact, he 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.160 was sticking them in his hand luggage. He worked for 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.599 Paraguay and National Airlines as a cabin steward, so he 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.679 was sneaking them in his carry on dry and then 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.439 selling them to woke up one day, well actually his 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.360 his buyer, as it were, the person that was hiring 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.240 him to transport them as a mule to Europe. Because 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.599 he would fly them to Europe. He was caught, he 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.640 was busted in the late eighties and then so that 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.400 that made it difficult for that to continue. So actually 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.520 the bird smuggling is declined a lot. Really, it's as 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.200 good news. You have kids, I do, And how old 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.320 are your kids now? Thirty three and twenty nine and 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:33.240 twenty and to seventeen year old twins? No, indeed five 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.760 kids indeed, or any of them in the family business 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:37.840 so to speak. Well, I would say yes, two or 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.120 three of them were really serious about going into the 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.400 family business. One of them is studying at Cornell Hotel School. 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.920 Because we're involved in creating green jobs through eco tourism, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.560 which is a form of service industry, like the float tells. 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.280 So when I leave, um, you know, when we're done 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.320 with the with the television show, what do you do 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.040 after that? When do you start getting into the eco 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:00.680 You weren't in the eco tour was in business then? 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:05.040 Were we were using the argument of eco tourism development 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:10.080 as the excuse for trying to convince politicians it was 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.960 worth creating these parks. In the case of Tamba Pata. 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.240 It's good that we talked about Tamba Pata specifically. Uh, 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.400 that Connecticut sized park now has about a half a 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.960 million bed nights of foreign visitors per year, and it's 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.560 the best land use economically of that area, which is 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:28.880 pretty remote and hard to get to. Turns out to 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.800 be eco tourism, and so we were right, and the 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.080 wildlife has recovered and there are thousands and thousands of 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.880 jobs now related to this, and so that actually is 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.560 a bulwark against the mining that's a little bit further 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.520 west to keep the mining mess from flowing over into 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.520 this area. So that's a big success, and you saw 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.200 it when it was kind of in the early stages. 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.440 What do you think people in this country can do 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.120 who want to have any kind of participation in the 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.680 solution here? Well, I think I think there's been quite 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.760 a bit of success um in the last say five 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:01.240 or ten years in convincing large retails. I'm not sure 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.920 exactly if it's Home Depot and Lows or a number 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.600 of them, I think have taken a pledge to only 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.840 sell wood from sustainable sources that actually can be traced 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.520 to be sustainable as opposed to being laundered, and I 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.480 think a lot of that initiative came from the World 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.920 Widlife Fund. They convinced industry to police itself, to make 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.320 it easier for you. Believe they are. I think they 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:23.720 are for you and I to do the right thing, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.840 to buy something that's sustainable now producing trees and fibers. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:28.920 One thing that's very important in the Amazon. I'm a 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.200 big believer in creating parks and and Indian reserves and 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.520 and and protecting them to the tourism. So that's also 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.080 part of it. It's not the only thing. But I 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:39.880 think a lot of people don't realize that there are 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.960 seventy four airports in the Amazon that have regular jet flights. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:44.520 A lot of people will guess their five or ten 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.880 even that they'll think that's high, but in fact it's 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.840 seventy four. If seventy percent of the Amazon is still 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.080 in forest, more than half of that is in protected areas. 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.880 It's probably thirty times or fifty times more protected areas 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.960 by percentage than the US has, And that's extraordinary. And 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:00.640 about half of that protect the area is owned by 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:05.240 Indians or maybe in biological reserves. You can get to 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.600 these protected areas within a half a day from one 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.600 of these seventy four airports, and so eco tourism has 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:11.960 to be part of the mix because you only need 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:16.080 to have one lodge in partnership, even with Indians, local Indians, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.200 at the mouth of a river of a million acre 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.840 rainforest park. And yet that one small lodge can have 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.000 turnover maybe one or two million dollars a year, and 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.120 it protects a million acres behind it because it keeps 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.240 people from getting in behind it. So it's a it's 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.800 a very inexpensive way to protect enormous pieces of forest. 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.760 And anything you can do that can slow down deforestation 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:38.920 will help slow down climate change because burning rainforest, especially 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.320 in Brazil and some other countries but Indonesia, was about 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.359 equivalent to the carbon released by the entire transport sector 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.199 in the entire world. It's about of all carbon releases 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.639 from burning rainforest. Anything you can do to slow that 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.160 is useful. So that's why I try to create parks 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.119 and try to create green jobs related to protecting the parks. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.359 And you would you say from your experience or the 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:04.360 primary activities that are occurring that they're burning this rain forest, logging, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.800 beef cattle. I mean a certain amount of logging, when 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.920 done properly, is not very destructive. If you're taking five 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.240 six seven species of trees, it doesn't tend to be 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.119 too destructive, especially if you minimize the number of logging 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.520 tracks or for for the heavy equipment, and you fell 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.960 the tree in exactly the right atraction, you've cut the 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:24.840 vines attached to it, that doesn't bring down a bunch 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:26.760 of other trees next to it. So things like that 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.199 can reduce the impact of logging enormously. But as soon 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.200 as you start to do twelve fifteen, eighteen species of trees, 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.680 you're destroying so much of the canopy that you're really 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.320 opening up the forest of desiccation and it becomes like 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.119 a tinder box. You can actually catch fire in the 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.440 dry season. What else are they doing there? Cut down well, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.879 the when a lot of forest is cleared for cattle 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.639 ranching initially and also sometimes for for soy farming, And 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.680 it's quite big, and there has been an enormous that 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.160 the good news has been enormous drop in the deforestation 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.119 rate in the Brazilian Amazon, especially the peak year was 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.920 two thousand five two thousand six, and it's gone down 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.520 by more than half the deforestation rate in Brazil has 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.320 gone way way down. You attribute that to what it's 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.920 been better policing by the Brazilian government. Frankly, I mean 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.280 it's enormous areas to police. They have very few wardens 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.840 or or agents who can check this. They actually collaborate 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.359 with the US Space Agency and they get real life 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.280 images of new fires, and so they can send agents 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.040 right there. Instead of trying to comb over an area 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.159 the size of the US. You send an agent right 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:29.920 to where you see the fire from the satellite, and 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.760 you can find someone some rancher who is cutting down 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:34.879 much much more forest than he's allowed. He's allowed to 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:36.200 cut down a little bit, but he's not allowed to 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.440 cut down anything like the amount that he tries to. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.240 So now they leve the enormous finds on these ranchers 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:48.479