1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers and performers, 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: to hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Charles Munn's 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: quest to save the Amazon rests on a simple premise. 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: If people have a peak experience in nature, they'll be 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: more invested in protecting it. Over the past four decades, 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: the conservation biologist has helped to preserve over twelve million 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 1: acres of rainforest in South America, home to what he 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: describes as the most biologically diverse protected areas on Earth. 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: And I've been there. I went to Peru with Charles 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: Mount in two thousand to shoot a documentary for T 13 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: n T, directed by the Great Robert Drew. Months tours 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:07,919 Speaker 1: are memorable, but the byproducts are better local jobs, community engagement, 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: and a surge in the value of the rainforest. Still, 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: for the son of a legendary Palm beach family, it's 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: a delicate balance between access and exploitation, one he prepared 18 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: for in a different type of jungle. I was working 19 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: for the Bronx Zoo or the Field Division of the 20 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: Bronx Zoo, which is the headquarters are really what calls 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: itself the Wildlife Conservation Society before the New York Well 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: it was it was the New York Zoological Society originally 23 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: and has several zoos and the aquarium and the Central 24 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: Park Zoo, the Bronx Zoo. The International Division does conservation 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: field work research on rare species, wildlife species, and mostly 26 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: the tropics and and some also temperate latitudes China, a 27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of countries around the world, usually 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: seventy countries they work in doing field conservation. So they're 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: one of the biggest conservation groups in the world that 30 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: headquartered in the Bronx Well, they're their headquarters of the 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: Bronx OOO. Yes, indeed, And how long have you been 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: working with them At the point that I met you, 33 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: I've been working for them for sixteen years. At that point, 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: I was working in the Amazon the whole time. My 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: specialty was the Amazon and other parts of tropical South America. 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: And you grew up in suburban d C. In Baltimore area, 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: the Baltimore area. You lived on a piece of property 38 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: that was adjacent to some reserve that you became well, 39 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: I have a small conservation easement that I protected, um 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: fifty acres from development. It was going to be turned 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: into twenty or thirty houses, and I was able to 42 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: buy it when I was young and protected. And it 43 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: has a oak trees and other large asciduous trees that 44 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: are more than three ft thick, and so there is 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: I think it's the tallest, biggest forest. It's not a 46 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: big forest, but it's a fifty acres. But I think 47 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: of the biggest trees within a half an hour of 48 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: the Amtrak line between New York and Washington, I think 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: I think they're bigger than in any of the protected 50 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: areas of the Maryland state, or Pennsylvania or New York. 51 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: What was it about you when you were that age 52 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: that you decided you wanted to take money of yours 53 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: and buy land and preserve How old were you when 54 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: you executed that deal. Let's see, I think it must 55 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: have been sixteen or seventeen. I had to convince my 56 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: trustee to dip into what was going to be resources, 57 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: which I wasn't supposed to be able to do, but 58 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: since it was not a bad thing to do, he 59 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: eventually agree. Because I was already fanatical about protecting nature. 60 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: What do you think it was mean most sixteen year olds, 61 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: I think, isn't saying, oh, let's go by this fifty 62 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: acres of land with these wonderful trees adjacent to the 63 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: Amtrak line and preserve it. Why were you hitting in 64 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: that direction? I just think I had been hypnotized by 65 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: some very beautiful songbirds when I was nine year old boy, 66 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: and truly, yeah, they just captivated me. And I always 67 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: felt since then that if I could, if other people 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: could see the birds as and other beautiful animals as 69 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: well as I did, they would also fall in love 70 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: with them and want to protect the habitat. So it's 71 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: as simple as that. Tell us about Chandler Robbins Well, 72 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: Shannon Robbins is appropriately named rob He was a great 73 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: ornithologist who were one of the best bird guides in 74 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: the history of the world. And he was worked for 75 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: the U. S. Government as a field biologist as a 76 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: bird scientist for them in Laurel, Maryland. When I was 77 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: a young boy, he was our idol because he would 78 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: come up to the Maryland Ornithological Society meeting is every 79 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: May in Ocean City and he would be like the 80 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: God when he would appear, so I'd go out birding 81 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: with him, you know, try to tag along with him 82 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: and other serious older birders and see if I could 83 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: learn something. But but where does this birding begin? Where 84 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: does your passion for this begin? Well, it's the white 85 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: throated sparrow and the myrtle warbler in breeding plumage. Specifically, 86 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: if you see either of those in breeding plumage up close, 87 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: it will change your life forever. And you were how 88 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: old when they change your life? And nine and you're 89 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: sitting in the backyard of your home, your family's home. Actually, 90 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: the white throated sparrow was at the neighbor's bird feeder 91 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: because on the wintertime they have a boring plumage and 92 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: then they switched to their breeding plumage. And that's pretty spectacular. 93 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: And merble warbler comes through in May every year and 94 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: it flies up through New York and Central Park and 95 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: you probably may tenth or so. And uh, that was 96 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: just an amazing bird. And I had no idea that 97 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: was not just one kind of warble. There were like 98 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: forty kinds of warblers you can see in one morning, 99 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: all heading up to Canada to breed in the summer. 100 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: So I was amazed all these beautiful butterflies, almost of 101 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: the bird world were coming through Maryland and going through 102 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: New York up to Canada. I didn't even know they 103 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: were there until my my stepbrother actually turned me onto this. 104 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: He's he was a burger. He was in a in 105 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: a circle of serious burners, one of whom was one 106 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: of the biggest bird listers in the world, the case 107 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: Inner brothers. Actually both of the Casener brothers. So the 108 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: Casner's brothers were from Baltimore, and there some of the 109 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I think there are maybe in the 110 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: top ten of the most bird species seen in their 111 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: lives in the world. One of them works for the 112 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: State Department only went it works, I think from Acormick Spices, 113 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: so they can travel the world. Each have their excuse 114 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: to travel the world so they can bird more. And 115 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: your your stepbrother was how much older than you? He 116 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: was two years older than me. He's eleven. Yeah, describe 117 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: described me the mon household at the eleven year old 118 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: boy and the nine year old boy are so passionate 119 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: about birding. Well, he was in this circle drawn. My 120 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: stepbrother was in this circle with the Casener brothers. And 121 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: they were so fanatical. So he was fanatical because he 122 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: was in the same school with them. And then he 123 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: started showing me these things that, wow, what these things 124 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: are around here? I'll come over. No one ever told 125 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: me before. Were you raised by people that were fond 126 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: of this? Not particularly? I mean my mother liked like nature. 127 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: My father died when I was three. So were you 128 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: raised by a stepfather? Yes, indeed, And was he a naturalist? Well, 129 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: he liked nature also, but it was really a drum 130 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: and the Casener brothers, that whole, that whole circle that 131 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: I sort of got involved with, and and that that 132 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: they turned me on too birding. It wasn't either of 133 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: my parents particularly or No. When you finish school as 134 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: a as a young man and you're about to go 135 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: to college, what what what becomes the path to you? Then? 136 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: What do you decide you want to do? I only 137 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: applied to to colleges and I got into both, and 138 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: I chose the one that had better bird watching, which 139 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: was which was Princeton out there and Hope both junction 140 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: in that area there was better bird washing. Well, yeah, 141 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: there was. The The Institute for Advanced Study has a 142 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: beautiful forest right next to the Princeton University. R. Einstein 143 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: used to walk and stuff to think about relativity and whatnot, 144 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: other flying things and and so you went there and 145 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: got a degree in biology. I did. And then after that, 146 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: what did you do? I wanted to continue working on 147 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: bird science, and I went to Oxford, got a master's there, 148 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: came back to Princeton in a PhD. Always in the Amazon, 149 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: and I got stuck with the Amazon. I got the 150 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: Amazon bug, you might say, a lot in the good way. 151 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: I became obsessed with with working in Amazon farm. Did 152 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: you first go there in seventy six, twenty one? I 153 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: guess I went with graduate students from Princeton. I was 154 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: a senior undergraduate and with John Turberg, who was the 155 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: professor that we all idolized, who was working in the 156 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: proving Amazon. So I was able to tag along with 157 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: him as a senior undergraduate. Your twenty one and you're 158 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: with Terborg in the Amazon, exactly proving Amazon is that 159 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: the place to go if you want to study birds 160 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: is the as opposed to the Brazil. Let's see, the 161 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: Amazon basin is the Amazon rainforest is the size of 162 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: the forty eight states. It has been cut, but seventy 163 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: eight percent is still standing. That's a lot of forest, 164 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: and so Brazil has the bulk of it. But after 165 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: Brazil it's Peru. Peru has two California is worth of rainforest. 166 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: That's a lot of rainforests, and so it is some 167 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: of the highest quality rainforest in terms of species diversity 168 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: and being pristine. A lot of the uncontacted Indian tribes 169 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: left in the Amazon are in the pruving Amazon rather 170 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: than Brazil. Your work down there becomes what, well, it's 171 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: a if you give a mouse a cookie, I mean, 172 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: it's a one thing leads to another, sort of inexorably. 173 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: So if you're interested in birds, and working in the 174 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: Amazon is the one of the most amazing things you 175 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: can do if you're a bird scientist, because the bird 176 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: diversity there is much higher than than anywhere else in 177 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: the world. You'll have five hundred species of birds in 178 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: just a few square miles. They're only ten thousand in 179 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: the whole planet. And then one park I've worked in 180 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: has a thousand species of birds. The entire US and 181 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: Canada has an eight hundred and fifty. So this one 182 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: park about the size of Massachusetts has a thousand, has 183 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: ten percent of all the bird species in the world. 184 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: So once you're working there, you become spoiled. If you're 185 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: an ornithologist or bird scientists, you really want to continue 186 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: working in such a pretty much. And I was lucky 187 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: enough to work on mixed species flocks. What does that mean? Well, 188 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: they are of the five bird species, three and thirty 189 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: live in the forest. Others live in lakes and river 190 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: banks and things. The threety that live in the forest 191 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: a third of them, more than a hundred species live 192 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: in mixed species flocks. So it's a very strange and 193 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: amazing thing to see. You can have seventy species of 194 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: birds in one flock at the same time, so and 195 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: it's and the best bird watching in those flocks in 196 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: the middle of the day. So it's like contrao. You 197 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: have to get up early a dawned to see the birds. Well, 198 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: in the case of the flocks, the best flocks to 199 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: bird watcher in the middle of the day and the Amazon, 200 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: you should be word watching the middle of the day 201 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: and have a late morning snack and a and a 202 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: mid afternoon snack. You should actually bird watch all through 203 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: the middle of the day. What's the area in the 204 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: United States and even just the forty eight if you will, 205 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: that has the most diversity of bird species. The part 206 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: of the US that has the most diversity of bird 207 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: species would be Texas and California. And they're amazing, uh 208 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: circles of crack birders in both states and they always 209 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: try to beat each other in the an annual counts 210 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: Christmas counts and try to see who wins. I think 211 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: it usually some of the Texas birding groups tend to win. 212 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: Which is the most number of birds you can see 213 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: in one day, So Texas is typically the winner. When 214 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: I met you in UM two thousand, my then wife 215 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: and I flew from New York to Miami and then 216 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: on to Peru and Puerto Maldonado, which I'm told has 217 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: changed dramatically. Well it's gotten a lot bigger. Yeah. And 218 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: then we went a very long journey on the boat 219 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: up the river. We get to this place. Had you 220 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: ever been there before? Had you worked with those people before? Oh? Yeah, 221 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: I mean that was a frequented That was a research 222 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: site that I stumbled upon thanks to some tips from 223 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: a local Bolivian Indian actually who was living in that 224 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: part of the Amazon. He was living Olivia has a 225 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: lot of Amazon forest too. They have about one and 226 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: a half California's worth, whereas Peru only has to California's worth. 227 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: So he took me off about that clay lick where 228 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: we watched macaws and parrots eating, and Uh, I thought 229 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: he was kidding me. But when I started, you know, 230 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: ask him difficult questions, he could answer them really quickly, 231 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: and so I said, well, he's onto something. So I 232 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: went up and looked at that area. So I found 233 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,359 Speaker 1: that area a few years earlier thanks to local informants, 234 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: which is the way we get everything done, is by 235 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: relying on local people to give us great information that 236 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: they don't even know. Is that interesting? So when we 237 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: went there, I mean, the film is what it is. 238 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: Bob Drew, the famous documentarian and his wife Anne, we 239 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: make a movie about the illegal market in exotic birds 240 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: from that area. And how would you compare now what's 241 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: going on in that department to what we experienced seventeen 242 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: years ago. Is it's still a huge problem. Actually that 243 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: part of the proving Amazon The problem was already declining 244 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: when when we visited, because in part because of your visit, 245 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: uh and brought attention to the area, and so there 246 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: was more resources than more. More travelers visited the area. 247 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: So the major concentrations of macaws and parrots at the 248 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: clay licks, we're all protected at that point by new parks, 249 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: and so really that black market bird trade out of 250 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: southern Peru basically had stopped. It was more of a 251 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: question of central and northern Amazon and Peru because they 252 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: improving Amazon is so enormous. So actually things have gotten 253 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: much much better since you visited. What was the smuggling 254 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: like back then? They would bring those birds into the country. 255 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: How well, In fact, the major smuggling of parrots would 256 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: have been more out of Mexico and Central American countries 257 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: up through the border into the U s sneaking them 258 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: into the US. The smuggling of parrots wasn't so much 259 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: from South America to the US. There was a legal 260 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: export from some countries, not from Peru, which they BOLIVI 261 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: you next door until the nineteen eighties and the two 262 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: the US passed a law outlawing the importation of wild 263 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: caught exotic birds, and the New York's oological side he 264 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: played a role in that, so did I and helping 265 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: pass the national law because there are already some state 266 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: laws prohibiting exotic bird importation, so that that put an 267 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: end to a lot of the trapping because people couldn't 268 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: sell it to the US anymore. We actually we're greener 269 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: than the European Union. The European Union took many years 270 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: before they finally shut down the sort of nasty, cruel 271 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: bird trade. When people would bring them in, how would 272 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: they bring them in, Well, they would typically sneak them 273 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: in drugged so that they wouldn't be squawking and wiggling 274 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: and drawing attention to themselves. So they would they would 275 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: have them in suitcases or in a little a little 276 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: plastic PBC pipes that would be hidden, maybe in parts 277 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: of a car if you're driving across the border. One 278 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: guy who was smuggling ridiculously rare, very valuable mccaus out 279 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: of Bolivia. He was uh and Paraguay. In fact, he 280 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: was sticking them in his hand luggage. He worked for 281 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 1: Paraguay and National Airlines as a cabin steward, so he 282 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: was sneaking them in his carry on dry and then 283 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: selling them to woke up one day, well actually his 284 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: his buyer, as it were, the person that was hiring 285 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: him to transport them as a mule to Europe. Because 286 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: he would fly them to Europe. He was caught, he 287 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: was busted in the late eighties and then so that 288 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: that made it difficult for that to continue. So actually 289 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: the bird smuggling is declined a lot. Really, it's as 290 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: good news. You have kids, I do, And how old 291 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: are your kids now? Thirty three and twenty nine and 292 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: twenty and to seventeen year old twins? No, indeed five 293 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: kids indeed, or any of them in the family business 294 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: so to speak. Well, I would say yes, two or 295 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: three of them were really serious about going into the 296 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: family business. One of them is studying at Cornell Hotel School. 297 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: Because we're involved in creating green jobs through eco tourism, 298 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: which is a form of service industry, like the float tells. 299 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: So when I leave, um, you know, when we're done 300 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: with the with the television show, what do you do 301 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: after that? When do you start getting into the eco 302 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: You weren't in the eco tour was in business then? 303 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: Were we were using the argument of eco tourism development 304 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: as the excuse for trying to convince politicians it was 305 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: worth creating these parks. In the case of Tamba Pata. 306 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: It's good that we talked about Tamba Pata specifically. Uh, 307 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: that Connecticut sized park now has about a half a 308 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: million bed nights of foreign visitors per year, and it's 309 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the best land use economically of that area, which is 310 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: pretty remote and hard to get to. Turns out to 311 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: be eco tourism, and so we were right, and the 312 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: wildlife has recovered and there are thousands and thousands of 313 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: jobs now related to this, and so that actually is 314 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: a bulwark against the mining that's a little bit further 315 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: west to keep the mining mess from flowing over into 316 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: this area. So that's a big success, and you saw 317 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: it when it was kind of in the early stages. 318 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: What do you think people in this country can do 319 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: who want to have any kind of participation in the 320 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: solution here? Well, I think I think there's been quite 321 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: a bit of success um in the last say five 322 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: or ten years in convincing large retails. I'm not sure 323 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: exactly if it's Home Depot and Lows or a number 324 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: of them, I think have taken a pledge to only 325 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: sell wood from sustainable sources that actually can be traced 326 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: to be sustainable as opposed to being laundered, and I 327 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: think a lot of that initiative came from the World 328 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Widlife Fund. They convinced industry to police itself, to make 329 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: it easier for you. Believe they are. I think they 330 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: are for you and I to do the right thing, 331 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: to buy something that's sustainable now producing trees and fibers. 332 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: One thing that's very important in the Amazon. I'm a 333 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: big believer in creating parks and and Indian reserves and 334 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: and and protecting them to the tourism. So that's also 335 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: part of it. It's not the only thing. But I 336 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: think a lot of people don't realize that there are 337 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: seventy four airports in the Amazon that have regular jet flights. 338 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: A lot of people will guess their five or ten 339 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: even that they'll think that's high, but in fact it's 340 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: seventy four. If seventy percent of the Amazon is still 341 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: in forest, more than half of that is in protected areas. 342 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: It's probably thirty times or fifty times more protected areas 343 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: by percentage than the US has, And that's extraordinary. And 344 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: about half of that protect the area is owned by 345 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: Indians or maybe in biological reserves. You can get to 346 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: these protected areas within a half a day from one 347 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: of these seventy four airports, and so eco tourism has 348 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: to be part of the mix because you only need 349 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: to have one lodge in partnership, even with Indians, local Indians, 350 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: at the mouth of a river of a million acre 351 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: rainforest park. And yet that one small lodge can have 352 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: turnover maybe one or two million dollars a year, and 353 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: it protects a million acres behind it because it keeps 354 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: people from getting in behind it. So it's a it's 355 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: a very inexpensive way to protect enormous pieces of forest. 356 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: And anything you can do that can slow down deforestation 357 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: will help slow down climate change because burning rainforest, especially 358 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: in Brazil and some other countries but Indonesia, was about 359 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: equivalent to the carbon released by the entire transport sector 360 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: in the entire world. It's about of all carbon releases 361 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: from burning rainforest. Anything you can do to slow that 362 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: is useful. So that's why I try to create parks 363 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: and try to create green jobs related to protecting the parks. 364 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: And you would you say from your experience or the 365 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: primary activities that are occurring that they're burning this rain forest, logging, 366 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: beef cattle. I mean a certain amount of logging, when 367 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: done properly, is not very destructive. If you're taking five 368 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: six seven species of trees, it doesn't tend to be 369 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: too destructive, especially if you minimize the number of logging 370 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: tracks or for for the heavy equipment, and you fell 371 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: the tree in exactly the right atraction, you've cut the 372 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: vines attached to it, that doesn't bring down a bunch 373 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: of other trees next to it. So things like that 374 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: can reduce the impact of logging enormously. But as soon 375 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: as you start to do twelve fifteen, eighteen species of trees, 376 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: you're destroying so much of the canopy that you're really 377 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: opening up the forest of desiccation and it becomes like 378 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: a tinder box. You can actually catch fire in the 379 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: dry season. What else are they doing there? Cut down well, 380 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: the when a lot of forest is cleared for cattle 381 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: ranching initially and also sometimes for for soy farming, And 382 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: it's quite big, and there has been an enormous that 383 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: the good news has been enormous drop in the deforestation 384 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: rate in the Brazilian Amazon, especially the peak year was 385 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: two thousand five two thousand six, and it's gone down 386 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: by more than half the deforestation rate in Brazil has 387 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: gone way way down. You attribute that to what it's 388 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: been better policing by the Brazilian government. Frankly, I mean 389 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: it's enormous areas to police. They have very few wardens 390 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: or or agents who can check this. They actually collaborate 391 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: with the US Space Agency and they get real life 392 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: images of new fires, and so they can send agents 393 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: right there. Instead of trying to comb over an area 394 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: the size of the US. You send an agent right 395 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: to where you see the fire from the satellite, and 396 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: you can find someone some rancher who is cutting down 397 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: much much more forest than he's allowed. He's allowed to 398 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: cut down a little bit, but he's not allowed to 399 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: cut down anything like the amount that he tries to. 400 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: So now they leve the enormous finds on these ranchers 401 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 1: and they'll they'll typically back off from doing that. Coming up, 402 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: Charles Mann on his unrivaled jaguar guarantee. South America's eco 403 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: tourism industry may help shield the region's wildlife from extinction, 404 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: but on the continent where the safari originated, poacher's still abound. 405 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: You know, I could describe it that if God forbid, 406 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: what was happening to elephants were happening to people. We 407 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: would call it a massive genocide. They're being exterminated for 408 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: ivory on a mass level, correct using the latest technology, 409 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: net's weapons, cell phones, sat phones, vehicles, aircraft, helicopters, and 410 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: the ease by which massive amounts of ivory can be 411 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: illegally shipped to markets has never been greater. To hear 412 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: more about Richard Riggero's story, go to Here's the Thing 413 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: dot org. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 414 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing these days. Charles Mann is a legend 415 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: name one of the leading experts on wildlife tourism by 416 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: Condie Nast Traveler, featured in National Geographic Newsweek and Time. 417 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: But even before the world was watching, Man was working 418 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: on his mission to save the rainforest, which began fittingly 419 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: by connecting with the people who live in it. Well, 420 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: I used to help Ruvians and Bolivians and Ecuadorians and 421 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: Brazilians get involved in ecuotourism to protect parks. So that's 422 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: back since nineteen eighty. I mean I've been I've been 423 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: using that as the argument. I only got more involved 424 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: in actually trying to create sustainable systems with local partners. 425 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: UH in the nineties and in the last say fifteen years, 426 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: so it had to actually get more involved and try 427 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: to actually organize trips to send people to see jaguars. 428 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: For instance, we we guarantee people will see jaguars and 429 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: the typically see them for hours a day hunting right 430 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: in front of you. It's amazing. So to tell me 431 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: who's the average client you have with the what part 432 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: of the world, if any is completely mixed or they're 433 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: parts of the world more crave the Briton experience. The 434 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: British are absolutely nature crazed. There's no culture that loves 435 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: their nature and their wildlife more than the Brits. And 436 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: so they are an enormous segment outside segment compared to 437 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: their population. Whether there's sixty million people in UK and 438 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: they must represent you know, a thirty or forty percent 439 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: of all guests coming to see jaguars and giant otters 440 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: and and there, and also the large birds. They love 441 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: their birds like no other culture in the world. Really, 442 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: did you have to customize your flotels? Well, we had 443 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: to design the first ever flotel that had rooms as 444 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: big as a hotel room. So I think our our 445 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: flowtel rooms are jaguar suites, and I think they're the 446 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: largest standard rooms on any ship in fresh water, maybe 447 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: even in saltwater in the world. It's like an ocean liner, 448 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: except it sits in one place, right in the middle 449 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: of the jaguars, so the jaguars walk by. In fact, 450 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: do you have with jaguar window on one side and 451 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: a much bigger picture window on the other side. We 452 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: have a jaguar indow on the on the side closer 453 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: to the forest, because there's a jaguar alarm. If the 454 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: jaguar walks by, you look through the window and see 455 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: it walk right by your cabin. Any danger. They don't 456 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: seem to find anything interesting on the floating hotel, No, 457 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: they not a problem. Well, there's nothing. There's no snacks there. 458 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: And then they're busy trying to hunt alligators and that's 459 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: their primary source of food. Alligators and enormous guinea pigs. 460 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: They're the hundred and twenty pound guinea pigs. They're called 461 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: cuppy barrows. They love cuppy bars and they eat the caymans. 462 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: Actually they're called caymans. And when they eat the caymans, 463 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: I mean I've seen horrific videos of snakes devouring quilled 464 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: animals and passing this through their system. Then eventually they 465 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: die because they cut the steak open. See the quills 466 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: sticking through their degestive tract. But when you when these animals, 467 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: what do they do? They split up them open. They 468 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: cut them open some now and then eat the inside. 469 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: They don't eat the skin of the cayman. Uh. They 470 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: eat almost everything. The jaguar has the most powerful bite 471 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: of any cat in the world. So the tiger and 472 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: the lion is bigger than a jaguar. But these big 473 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: jaguars in this area, they grow much bigger than the 474 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: ones in the Amazon because they eat so well their 475 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: whole life. The genes are the same, but they grow 476 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: to enormous. They grow to their maximum size to they 477 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: eat perfectly their whole lives. The males are three and 478 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,239 Speaker 1: fifty pounds. That's a pretty big cat. That's bigger than 479 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: a that's the size of a female lion. More or 480 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: less so, they and they have much harder bite. They 481 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: have bigger jaw muscles than either lions or tigers, and 482 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: they can crush the back of the skull of a 483 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: full grown cow or of a alligator cayman like this. 484 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: So once they've crushed the back of the skull, they've 485 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: basically killed the cayman. They've paralyzed it. But then it's 486 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: gonna die immediately at me by by cutting the spinal cords. 487 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: It's basically hasn't died in the first two seconds. It's 488 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: still alive, but it's paralyzed. And then and they'll they'll eat, 489 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: they'll eat the thing for several days in a row. 490 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: They'll eat for three or four or five days in 491 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: a row, and you just sit there with their distended belly. 492 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: Because they meant so much. The leat almost everything. They 493 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: they can show up the bones, they can chew up 494 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: the skin, they their their their jaw strength is incredible. 495 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: It's just like a really good taffy to them. It's 496 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: just a really strong pretty much. And the funny thing 497 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: is one some jaguars that we were studying tracking them, 498 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: they would they would walk next to a field with 499 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: young calves, you know, baby cows, and the other side 500 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: of the fence there was some a little there was 501 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: a little pig sie with some little piglets that were 502 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: kind of seen bite size, and these jaguars day after day, 503 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: night after night, would walk between the calves and the 504 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: little piglets and ignore them, walk down to the river 505 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 1: and jump on these things that are, you know, these 506 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: caymans that are basically like dinosaurs. They just had been 507 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: taught by their mothers. They had been taught by their 508 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: mothers to eat caymans, and so they kind of ignored 509 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: these things that would be much easier to eat and 510 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: much easier to kill. It waswhere and that's one of 511 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: the reasons we're not too scared of them, because their 512 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: mother didn't. You eat what your mother gave you as 513 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: a kid, that's what you love to eat. And that's 514 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: why the jagguars don't show interest in us, because their 515 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: mothers didn't teach them to eat us. Because they don't 516 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: know if we taste good, they don't know if we're dangerous. 517 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: If they're two of us, they don't know what the 518 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: second human will do, you know, And so that jaggars 519 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: are not crazy, you know, crazy predators who just kill senselessly. 520 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: If they make one wrong move, they can break their ankle, 521 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: let's say, and then they'll die of starvation. And that's 522 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: what we see the jaguars did. They jumped down eight 523 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: or ten feet onto these big caymans that are like 524 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: nine ft long, that way more than the cat. And 525 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: if they if they twist their ankle or break their 526 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: their ankle, that happen their wrist. Yeah, you'll see every 527 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: year or two you'll see one of the fifty jaguars 528 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: that we know well that will let you watch them 529 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: in real time all through the day. You'll see them 530 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: with a really really bad limp. I mean they can 531 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: barely even walk. And in that situation they often recover. 532 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: It's amazing how tough they are. But that's the moment. 533 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: That's one of the ones. I'm sure they I'm sure 534 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: they starve, you know, they go into the bushes and 535 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: probably hide and starve. Yeah, do you still have a 536 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: home in the US at all? I do. I have 537 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: a home in Baltimore Native Area neck next to that 538 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: forest with the big trees. And how much time are 539 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: you in the US? Every year? Every year it varies 540 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: a little, uh several months. I try to catch the 541 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: spring migration here in the eastern US in April and May. 542 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: But the big season for the jaguars is really is 543 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: really June, July, August, September, October November sweltering hot, or 544 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: it's a bit cooler there in the southern hemisphere. June 545 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: and July it can be quite cool, quite nice that way. 546 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: September October gets quite hot. October a few rains started 547 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more, and just enough rain starts in 548 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: early November that it cools off. So my favorite time 549 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: of the year to do jager watching is actually early 550 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: in November. But because some guide books say November is 551 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: the beginning of the rainy season in the Puntenale, people 552 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: go the rainy season, Well, that's actually raining season is 553 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: a blessing because it's so hot sometimes in October you're 554 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: just praying for some rain. Do you think that some 555 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: of what you've learned and some of what you've created 556 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: and supported down there that could be applied to here 557 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: at home as well. Well. I'm interested in the in 558 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: the cougars or mountain lions that exist in Florida. There 559 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: are several hundred of them. They call them the Florida panther. 560 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: That's a local name for them. There are several hundreds 561 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: of them, and you don't see them, but I think 562 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: with the right techniques you can see them. And it's 563 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: probably the most graceful of all. The one of the 564 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: most graceful cats is is the is the puma or 565 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: mountain lion when it's when it's hunt. So if you 566 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: and I decide to open up the flotel business that's 567 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: in the Effort Glades, there's the white tailed deer. They're 568 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: eating lots and lots of white tailed deer. And of 569 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: course in the U we're safe, absolutely well. I don't 570 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: know once again, any large cat as a human alone, 571 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: don't trust any large cat if you're alone and don't 572 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: turn your back on it. Cats don't like to attack 573 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: if there's several of you because they don't know what 574 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: the second humans capable of. They don't have direct experience 575 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: with how dangerous we are or are not, because most 576 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: of the time, unless we have a gun, we're not 577 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: toy dangerous for a large cat. I think the wolves 578 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: in Yellowstone would be interesting because I don't know the 579 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: wolf tourism. I'm not quite sure how it works, but 580 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: I understand there are a lot of people who love 581 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: the wolf tourism, you know, travelers who want to see 582 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: the wolves badly. I guess it's in the western edge 583 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: of the National Park. And then there, and then the 584 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: ranchers near the party hate the wolves, and I think 585 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: the wolf hunting has been reopened in that area. So 586 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: that's an interesting situation where I'd like to see. I'd 587 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: like to know more about how the wolf concert ration 588 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: could could create green jobs there and help protect wolves. 589 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: There was a New York Times story about how boring 590 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: ecotourism is in the Amazon. That was a very unfortunate story, 591 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: But the writer was a TV producer for one of 592 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: the major networks who went to the Amazon and came 593 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: back and said, I didn't see anything, basically, and that's 594 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: because he the Amazon is complicated. You have to know 595 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: where the fruit tree is that has all the action. 596 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,479 Speaker 1: If you don't go to that fruit tree, you may 597 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: not see a lot in the rest of the forest, 598 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: but that fruit tree is stuffed full of monkeys and birds, 599 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: and it's just amazing. There's no substitute for knowing exactly 600 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: what's going on tree by tree in the forest, and 601 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: a square mile of typical Amazon forest, it's unhunted and 602 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: has all the original animals. Only two or three trees 603 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: are stuff full of animals that day. But you need 604 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: to know which trees those are. You have to be 605 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: at those trees at the right time, then you're gonna 606 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: have a great time. You'll get the impression that they're 607 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: more animals in the forest, and there actually are because 608 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: they're all concentrated in one tree. You know, there's still 609 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: any uncontacted Indians down there. As far as there are 610 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: un contacted Indians and Brazil than Peru, we're both. There 611 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: are some pockets, especially in Peru and Brazil in Venezuela 612 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: where they're uncontacted tribes. That doesn't mean that they don't 613 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: know that the outside world exists. That means that they're 614 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: choosing to live out of contact, and they are out 615 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: of contact, but it's not that they have no idea 616 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: that there's something else. There's there's other stuff out there. 617 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: They choose to avoid it because they all know from 618 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: tradition that it's dangerous, because it typically is dangerous when 619 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: they come in contact with western civilization. We worked a 620 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: lot with Indians who we helped TITLE while I was 621 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: working for WCS. We raised a million dollars for land 622 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 1: titling of Indians to create a big buffer zones around 623 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: the national parks, and that was quite effective and many 624 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: of the Indians that we worked with were some of 625 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: our best executives and informants and gave us new ideas 626 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: about how to make the rain for us more interesting. 627 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: One of them, who had been working with me on Macause, said, uh, oh, 628 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: you want to come to my house a couple hours away, 629 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: and I've got a macau there. And I said, oh, 630 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: you mean you took you're working with maccause of me 631 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: and you you kind of treat out and took the 632 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: baby Macause at pet. That's no good. He says, no, 633 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: you don't quite understand. Come to my house and I'll 634 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: show you. So we drove a couple of hours by 635 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: river to his house and it was the end of 636 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: the day and he said, they'll probably show up any minute. 637 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: I said, what do you mean they'll show up any minute? 638 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: And suddenly these giants, you know, the Scarlett Macause, flew 639 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: out of the forest and landed right next to the house. 640 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: I said, what's going on? And then they give them snacks. 641 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: They gave them some corn from their corn field, and 642 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: the and the Macause eight and then they flew away. 643 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: Said no, no, there are those are pet Macause. We 644 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: never clipped their wings, so they just come and go 645 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: they'll come and get snack. They'll top off the tank 646 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: a couple of times a day. They're eating in the forest. 647 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: They're wild macause, but they come back to get snacks 648 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: from us. I said, you're kidding, really, you mean because 649 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: the second baby, and they have two babies, the second 650 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: macause starves to death. Normally, that's part of macau biology. 651 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: They want to raise one healthy one and the second 652 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: ones in insurance policy in case the first ones are done, 653 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: so the second one almost always starves. I said, well, 654 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: why don't we raise the second one in a field 655 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: lab and release it. It will come back to get 656 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: snacks for the rest of its life. And you know, 657 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: ALEC and and UH and National geographic photographers and and guests, 658 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: we'll all get amazing photos of wild macause that are 659 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: like dual citizens. They'll come in and visit us and 660 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: then leave again. You saw some of those birds. I 661 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: think one of them was telling you were a great actor. 662 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, it was bobbing its head, you know, 663 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: And yes, indeed it was. It was doing lines from 664 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: all my greatest films. Now, how much more do you 665 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: see yourself doing this kind of thing? I mean, isn't 666 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: there a part of you that wants to kick back 667 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: and finish the whole thing, or have a nice autumn 668 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: of your years where it all started on your five 669 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: acre ancestral home in Baltimore, bordering the fifty acres that 670 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: you secured with your selling all your Halloween candy. Well, 671 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: I'd like to be a little bit less involved with 672 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: worrying about whether we have enough ripe tomatoes in the kitchen. 673 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: I'd like to be a little less involved in making 674 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: sure that every single transfer from an airport to hotel 675 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: goes properly. I like to be less involved in the 676 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: day to day operations and more involved with thinking about 677 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: things like the Florida panther. You know, we know that 678 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: we have techniques that can be applied, that have legs 679 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: that can be used over and over again. There's no 680 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: reason to have to rediscover the wheel. We know how 681 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: to make McCaw's ridiculously fun and attractive and it's easy. 682 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: And yet even when the country of Costa Rica we 683 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: propose that they have what I call assisted fledging, the 684 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: second baby is gonna starve anyway, Take it from the nest, 685 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: feed it in a field lab, and release it and 686 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: we'll come back and guess we'll get pictures of Scarlett 687 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: Macause next to in national parks or next to national 688 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: parks in Costa Rica. And they have a million tourists 689 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: and fewer the one percent got a good photo of 690 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 1: a Scarlett Macau at the moment. But if they did 691 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: what I said, they'd have ncent that people would getting 692 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: good photos of Scarlet ut Macause. And that would mean 693 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: people might spend an extra night in the country. And 694 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: a million people spending an extra night. You can do 695 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: the math. So and yet Costa Rica doesn't doesn't take 696 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: that suggestion seriously. I suggested that to them twenty years 697 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: ago because Costa ricause renown. Now there's an eco tourism spot. Well, 698 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: they just outlawed all all feeding of wild animals. You 699 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: can't even feed a bird in your backyard in Costa Rica. 700 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I think it's purest 701 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: biologists who have the training that I have, but who 702 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: don't understand that if we don't, I mean, there's a 703 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: there's a there's a continuum of you know, putting an 704 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: animal in a cage and making it suffer, and having 705 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: a wild animal that you give a snack and there's 706 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: everything in between. You can know wild animals. You don't 707 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: touch at all. Wild animals, you give them a little 708 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: snack to make them easier to see. If you can 709 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: protect a forest by giving a few wild animals a 710 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: little bit of a snack that doesn't hurt them, and 711 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: you can protect a million acres of forest by doing that. 712 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: I much prefer that than torching the place into carbon, 713 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: which is what happens literally. I think biologies have to 714 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: be more dynamic about using their knowledge of animal biology 715 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: and animal behavior to make animals more accessible and more visible. 716 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: I challenge my friends, and people are gonna be mad 717 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: at me for saying this, but I challenge my friends 718 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: who go to Costa Rica literally to come back with 719 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: trophy photos of wildlife. And they come back with precious 720 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: little in the way of trophy photos of wildlife that 721 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: could compete with what they saw in Kenyer or in 722 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: South Africa. And that's because the animals are there. But 723 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: you have to be able to get close enough to them. 724 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: Because the animals are smaller and they're not dangerous, and 725 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: they're more colorful, but you need to be able to 726 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: get close to them. And one of the ways you 727 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: do that is by giving them a structured snack that 728 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: is harmless. Yeah, and so I mean you can feed 729 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: animals the wrong way, and I'm opposed to that, but 730 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: you can also do something intelligent and make some animals 731 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: more visible than they would be otherwise. You can see 732 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: amazing birds. And I actually asked the coustoar because anyone 733 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: in the room there were a lot of scientists in 734 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: the room at the last meeting where they said no, 735 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: they're not going to allow assisted fledging of macause. Has 736 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: anyone been to Sydney or Melbourne where cockatoos are backyard feederbirds? 737 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: I said, you should have a hundred thousand Scarlett Macause 738 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: in Costa Rica, not sixteen hundred like they have. No 739 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: every home in the lowlands in Costa Rica should have 740 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: Scarlett macauss backyard feederbirds. What's wrong with that model? And 741 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: there is nothing wrong with that model, but they actually 742 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: instead of heading in that direction doing test, they've actually 743 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,919 Speaker 1: gone in the opposite direction. What part beyond the South 744 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: American rainforest? What are other places you crave? I want 745 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: to go to Antarctica, yeah, and I haven't been to 746 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: the Galapagus yet, which is embarrassing. No, no, I would 747 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: expect you for many summers there. Well, they already know 748 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: what they're doing with eco tourism and conservation. They don't 749 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: need any tips from any consulting. No, no, they don't 750 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: need any tips from me. But I maintain that we 751 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: have better wildlife viewing in the Puntinel in Brazil than 752 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: even than they have. We have a lot of large mammals, otters, jaguars, 753 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: a lot of large birds, uh copy bars, the world's 754 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: largest rodent, as I said, the giant guinea pig, these 755 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: big big alligators, and the caymans, and so I think 756 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: I may we have four species of monkeys see them ridiculously. Well, 757 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: we have the largest parrot in the world, the highest 758 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: of malcaul there. So I maintain that we have something 759 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: similar to or even in some ways better than the 760 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: glap the glab because has no large there's no hunting. 761 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: The animals just aren't there. Other very interesting and there's 762 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: no question about it. But you're talking about they don't 763 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: have colorful, big mammalian predators like that. So the reason 764 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: you're you, as you said before, the reason that your 765 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: situation there is as vivid as it is and is 766 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: is conducive to the secut tours. Something is the lack 767 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: of hunting correct, it's because the country, Brazil outlawed sports 768 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: hunting in nineteen sixty seven, and that's amazing. I'm not 769 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: even sure what they were thinking. But in fact it's 770 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: been amazing for my work because I've seen the quality 771 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: of wildlife viewing in Brazil increase so much in the 772 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: last thirty year is I just can't believe it. So 773 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: a lot of places in the world are declining, the 774 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: wildlife is declining, but in Brazil it's a wildlife bonanza. 775 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 1: Now you can see pink dolphins ridiculously tame right outside 776 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: of the city of Manouse. You can fly to Manouse, 777 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, American airlines in five hours from Miami and 778 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: have pink dolphins right around your legs. They don't care. 779 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: And so Brazil has amazing stuff that I would never 780 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: have predicted that, for instance, that I could see jaguars 781 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: on demand. I would never have guessed that was possible. 782 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: And I spent years in the rainforest. I saw jaguars 783 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: in the Amazon rainforest. In the Amazon, they're in the 784 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: forest hunting wild pigs, and so you don't see them 785 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: on the river bank, but in the punt thenale. They're 786 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: hunting the copy bars and the caymans on the river bank, 787 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: which is where those things live, and that's why you 788 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: see them. You know. I have a story that I 789 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: don't think I told you. Did I tell you what 790 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: was happening in that blind while we were waiting for 791 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: them Acause to come down? Please, I'm on tenter hooks. 792 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: So it was there was a cameraman. One end of 793 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: the blind was only what big enough for four or 794 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: five people? Yes, And so I had my colleague proving 795 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: colleague at ward and Nikander was in the blind with me. 796 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: He was sitting next to me, and you were just 797 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 1: beyond him, and then I think Kim was just beyond him. 798 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: And then the cameraman was sitting somewhere in there, and 799 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: we were we were waiting for the Macause to come 800 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: down to eat clay, and there was a raging flood 801 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: next to us. It was January. That was a crazy 802 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: time to go. It's a difficult time for this to work. 803 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: So the rain let up and the flood was coming 804 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: up and it was starting to come into the blind. 805 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: It was actually starting starting to wash away the blind 806 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: while we were sitting there. Did you notice that I 807 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: was so engross Well, there were large tree trunks going by, 808 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: I said, about ten miles an hour, and one of them, 809 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: one of them had hit the edge of the blind 810 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: that would have been the end. And there were rocks 811 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: coming down this hundred foot high clay wall not far 812 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: from you and Kim, you know these rocks coming down 813 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: the side of your head coming down, and they were 814 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: smashing into the water. Did you notice that that I heard? 815 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: I heard like a little plunk, I heard one. Remember, 816 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: I heard a sound that I thought it was something 817 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: had fallen down in the range, because I know what 818 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 1: happens those banks. Sometimes the whole bank collapses. But there's 819 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: a third thing that was happening all at the same time. 820 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: We're all waiting for the macause at the end to 821 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: come down or not. And that is that it were 822 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: a n can to sort of did his eyebrows and 823 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: looked over in the corner and sort of indicate I 824 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: should look down there. And I looked down there and 825 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: there was a venomous snake had come into the blind, 826 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: something that people are terrified snakes in the rainforest, But 827 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: there was a venomous snake a small one, but it 828 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: was always about six seven inches maybe maybe a foot long. 829 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: I had crawled because the flood was coming up, and 830 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: it had scared this fair delane snake into the blind. 831 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: And so this fair de long of snake was sort 832 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: of making its way over towards the two of you, 833 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: you and Kim, and I said, dude wardo in Spanish 834 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: and whispered to him. I said, keep them busy by 835 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: whispering to him, and tell him a few stories. And 836 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: so he was telling you a couple of stories, and 837 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: you were listening to his little stories. And as he 838 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: was talking quietly, and I had a little stick in 839 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: my hand, and I put a stick on the head 840 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: of the snake, and I kept watching you, God, hang 841 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: on a second, and uh and uh and and so 842 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: and I sort of smiling listening to the story. But 843 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: meanwhile the snakes wriggling while I had it pinned down 844 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: near its head. And then I had a Swiss army 845 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,439 Speaker 1: knife and I cut the snake's head off. I'm sorry 846 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: to say, I mean, I'm afraid I couldn't deal with 847 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: that snake in another way at that moment. It was 848 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: a small snake. But maybe you I'm gonna get in 849 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: trouble now. But so I didn't tell you that, and 850 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: this is the first time you heard that. My god, 851 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: everyone's terrified they're going to see a snake when they 852 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: go to the rainforest, and you know, actually come in 853 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: my bedroom when I was in then, you know. But 854 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: I mean, so here we had the raging flood with 855 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: the huge logs going by a venomous snake and these 856 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: big boulders coming down the hillside, and you guys were 857 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: I think somewhat oblivious, and then the macause came down 858 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: and we filmed it and all worked well. You know 859 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: what's great about going on these trips with a guy 860 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 1: like you and naturalist who's got a PhD from Princeton 861 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,240 Speaker 1: and all these kind of fancy's piled higher and deeper. 862 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: PhD bs MS is more of the same PhD piled 863 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: higher and deeper. Well being with someone where it's piled 864 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: higher and deeper. The great thing is, as I may 865 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: die in the rainforest here in the blind, but at 866 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: least I'll know how I died. We'll explain it's the 867 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: is the log genus species. You'll see this snake that 868 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: just bit you was a what's it called fair Delance, 869 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: the French name for a South American and Central American 870 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: pit fighter related to the rattlesnake on the copper head. 871 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: But I don't want to like terrify people because I mean, 872 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: that's one the few fairalnes I've ever seen. It just 873 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: happened to be in the blind with you with him. 874 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 1: In a recent interview with the Telegraph, Charles Mann captured 875 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 1: why as a zoologist he promotes encounters with animals. Quote, 876 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: there's a continuum from pets and animals and zoos to 877 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: a wild animal in nature approaching you, to really wild 878 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 1: species that are terrified of you. I'm willing to use 879 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: any point on that continuum except captivity to promote forest conservation. 880 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: I'd rather have the monkeys running wild, but realistically it's 881 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: no longer an option. Unquote, this is Alec Baldwin and 882 00:41:48,280 --> 00:42:02,399 Speaker 1: you're listening to. Here's the thing. I think our