WEBVTT - Britney Spears’ Former Lawyer on Her Conservatorship 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.196 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.236 --> 0:00:27.636 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.156 --> 0:00:33.276 I'm Noah Feldman. This season we're exploring power, power in 0:00:33.316 --> 0:00:36.956 the legal system, power in the media, the power of personality, 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:42.156 you name it. This is not very usual kind of episode. 0:00:43.196 --> 0:00:47.036 It's still about power, but in an unusual way. This 0:00:47.156 --> 0:00:51.076 past February, the New York Times released a documentary called 0:00:51.276 --> 0:00:55.436 Framing Britney Spears, a film about Britney's rise to stardom 0:00:55.516 --> 0:01:00.316 and the conservatorship, a legal form of guardianship she's been 0:01:00.356 --> 0:01:03.876 in since two thousand and eight. The film brought renewed 0:01:03.916 --> 0:01:08.156 scrutiny to Britney's conservatorship and also to conservatorship more broadly. 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:13.276 In a remarkable twist, some House Republicans are now calling 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:18.596 for national conservatorship reform. Here to help us understand conservatorship 0:01:18.676 --> 0:01:23.036 law and what happened to Britney Spears is Adam Streisand 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:27.476 he's a trial attorney and really in truth, an attorney 0:01:27.476 --> 0:01:31.156 to the stars. He's always involved in high profile litigation 0:01:31.516 --> 0:01:35.996 and private wealth disputes of large magnitude. If you saw 0:01:36.036 --> 0:01:39.436 the documentary, you will know who he is. In the 0:01:39.516 --> 0:01:44.076 run up to the conservatorship application, Britney Spears met with 0:01:44.156 --> 0:01:48.636 Adam and she hired Adam. That means, in legal terms, 0:01:48.676 --> 0:01:52.556 he was her lawyer. He then went into court where 0:01:52.556 --> 0:01:57.156 the judge determined that Britney Spears was unable in legal terms, 0:01:57.196 --> 0:01:59.916 to hire her own attorney and to pick her own attorney, 0:02:00.156 --> 0:02:03.596 and therefore gave her a court appointed attorney who represents 0:02:03.596 --> 0:02:06.676 her to this day. Adam is going to walk us 0:02:06.676 --> 0:02:10.036 through conservatorship. He's going to discuss whether reform is needed 0:02:10.076 --> 0:02:12.396 and if so, how, and he's also going to talk 0:02:12.396 --> 0:02:15.756 about his experiences with Britney's case and what it means 0:02:15.996 --> 0:02:20.876 at the bigger level. Adam hasn't given any interviews to 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:24.556 any other media source that I know of since appearing 0:02:24.556 --> 0:02:28.356 in the documentary, so we're particularly lucky that he agreed 0:02:28.556 --> 0:02:32.636 to appear here on deep background to take us behind 0:02:32.756 --> 0:02:43.836 the story of Britney spears conservatorship. Adam, I'm so grateful 0:02:43.876 --> 0:02:46.796 to you for being here on deep background. I'll tell 0:02:46.796 --> 0:02:50.156 you the backstory from my perspective, which is that since 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:55.236 the documentary about Britney's conservatorship, I can't even count how 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:59.956 many people professional and unprofessional have said to me, you know, Noah, 0:03:00.036 --> 0:03:02.396 you know, to tell us what we should think about conservatorship. 0:03:02.476 --> 0:03:04.316 And I said to them, look, I'm not an expert 0:03:04.316 --> 0:03:06.796 on conservatorship. I barely remember what I learned about it 0:03:06.796 --> 0:03:08.796 in law school. I don't even play an expert on 0:03:08.876 --> 0:03:11.756 deep Let's talk to a real expert. And I sort 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:13.836 of realized at some point that the public interest in 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:16.396 this is so fundamental and the issues behind it are 0:03:16.436 --> 0:03:19.396 so significant that it's really worth having a conversation with 0:03:19.396 --> 0:03:21.956 someone who genuinely is an expert and who has first 0:03:21.956 --> 0:03:24.516 hand knowledge of the situation. So that's the backstory of 0:03:24.596 --> 0:03:26.396 how you're here, And so I wonder if we could 0:03:26.436 --> 0:03:30.076 start by just walking the folks through, and that includes 0:03:30.156 --> 0:03:33.516 me the one on one of conservatorship, what it's for, 0:03:33.756 --> 0:03:36.796 how it's established, and when it's well functioning, whether it's 0:03:36.796 --> 0:03:40.156 a good idea. Right. So, the most important thing to 0:03:40.236 --> 0:03:45.196 know about conservatorships is that it's a process that's designed 0:03:45.236 --> 0:03:49.156 to protect people who are vulnerable. And they may be 0:03:49.236 --> 0:03:56.596 vulnerable because of mental illness, dementia, other conditions which cause 0:03:56.716 --> 0:04:00.356 them to be either unable to manage their own lives, 0:04:00.436 --> 0:04:05.476 their own daily activities of living, getting appropriate healthcare, feeding themselves, 0:04:06.036 --> 0:04:12.436 taining shelter, and also making finance hual decisions, and very 0:04:12.476 --> 0:04:16.436 importantly resisting the influence of people who might want to 0:04:16.436 --> 0:04:20.276 take advantage of them. And let's be clear, there is 0:04:20.316 --> 0:04:23.836 a lot of that going on, especially as our population 0:04:24.076 --> 0:04:28.436 continues to age. Healthcare is better and better, people are 0:04:28.476 --> 0:04:32.316 living longer lives. But it's sort of the Ronald Reagan syndrome. 0:04:32.356 --> 0:04:37.476 They're healthy physically, but not necessarily mentally. They become more 0:04:37.516 --> 0:04:41.156 and more vulnerable and susceptible to influence of others or 0:04:41.236 --> 0:04:44.516 simply unable to really manage their own lives, you know, 0:04:44.596 --> 0:04:46.836 make sure they're paying taxes on time. Yeah, seen from 0:04:46.876 --> 0:04:50.156 that perspective, it sounds like we need conservatorship in our 0:04:50.196 --> 0:04:53.516 system because there are people who are aging or people 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:56.956 who have other underlying disease and they really do need 0:04:56.996 --> 0:04:59.516 to be taken care of. So what are the safeguards 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:01.356 that are in place presently, and then we can talk 0:05:01.356 --> 0:05:04.396 about whether they're good enough so that not just anyone 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:09.356 is placed in a conservatorship. Sure, so, conservatives ship are 0:05:09.396 --> 0:05:13.556 actually really really tough to obtain. You have to be 0:05:13.636 --> 0:05:17.116 able to approve to a court at a trial by 0:05:17.276 --> 0:05:20.116 clear and convincing evidence right, So that means not just 0:05:20.196 --> 0:05:23.556 your normal civil standard of more probable than not, and 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:27.196 not your criminal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt, but 0:05:27.276 --> 0:05:31.476 somewhere in between, a clear and convincing evidence standard that 0:05:31.556 --> 0:05:35.876 the person needs a conservatorship because they're unable to manage 0:05:35.916 --> 0:05:40.836 their own affairs or resist undue influence by others. And 0:05:40.956 --> 0:05:43.956 you also have to show that a conservatorship is what 0:05:43.996 --> 0:05:48.876 we call the least restrictive means available in order to 0:05:48.916 --> 0:05:52.116 protect them, because there are other ways in which people 0:05:52.156 --> 0:05:55.716 can be protected. For example, if your assets are held 0:05:55.716 --> 0:05:59.076 in trust and you have a trustee, the trustee has 0:05:59.076 --> 0:06:02.316 the power to make financial decisions, you can influence me 0:06:02.396 --> 0:06:05.556 all you want. But I don't have that power anymore. 0:06:05.836 --> 0:06:09.796 My assets are in trust, or I have a healthcare 0:06:09.836 --> 0:06:13.596 directive a power of attorney for healthcare decisions, or I'm 0:06:13.636 --> 0:06:17.036 getting you know, I have care and place to help 0:06:17.156 --> 0:06:20.956 me with my daily living, so I don't necessarily need 0:06:21.556 --> 0:06:24.036 the framework of a conservatorship. But unfortunately a lot of 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:29.236 people don't have those things, and conservativeships are really the 0:06:29.276 --> 0:06:32.956 best means available to protect them. What's unusual, of course, 0:06:32.996 --> 0:06:36.836 about the Britney case it's not unique. But it's unusual 0:06:37.116 --> 0:06:41.836 is that she's young. Okay, she has been in a 0:06:41.876 --> 0:06:47.756 conservatorship for thirteen years, and she seems to be functioning, right. 0:06:47.876 --> 0:06:51.556 I mean, we see her onstage performing, we see her 0:06:51.556 --> 0:06:55.276 on television co hosting a TV show, and we say 0:06:55.316 --> 0:06:57.756 to ourselves, will wait a minute. If this is a 0:06:57.836 --> 0:07:01.436 conservatorship as supposed to be a system to protect people 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:04.876 who can't function on their own, and only when they 0:07:04.916 --> 0:07:08.356 really can't function in their own, how is it appropriate 0:07:08.436 --> 0:07:10.516 for her because she seems to be able to function. 0:07:10.876 --> 0:07:13.916 The problem is we just don't really know what's going 0:07:13.956 --> 0:07:16.876 on behind the scenes, and that's the real problem at 0:07:16.876 --> 0:07:21.236 this case. I have a whole barrage of questions about 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:23.116 the trial of procedure, but before I get to them, 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:24.636 I first want to I was really struck by what 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:28.236 you said about that a trust would be considered an alternative, 0:07:28.276 --> 0:07:31.356 and it does seem like a less restrictive alternative. So 0:07:31.396 --> 0:07:33.356 why isn't it the case that for just about anybody 0:07:33.396 --> 0:07:36.156 who would be in a position where conservatorship would be 0:07:36.196 --> 0:07:39.836 applied for that, a court would say, actually, no, let's 0:07:39.876 --> 0:07:41.956 just create a trust, put your assets in the trust, 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:47.236 and appoint a trustee. Brittany's assets are in trust and 0:07:47.316 --> 0:07:50.076 there is a trustee, and so you might ask, Will 0:07:50.196 --> 0:07:53.076 then why does Brittany have a conservative of the estate. Well, 0:07:53.796 --> 0:07:56.996 it can be useful to have a conservative the estate 0:07:56.996 --> 0:07:59.876 who can be the one to make sure the trust 0:07:59.956 --> 0:08:03.436 he's doing his job, and a conservatorship might be useful 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:06.916 for that purpose. If the conservatie can't really do that 0:08:06.996 --> 0:08:10.196 and make sure, hey, the trustee is you know, dipping 0:08:10.316 --> 0:08:14.476 or doing things inappropriate. That's actually fascinating because to watch 0:08:14.556 --> 0:08:17.996 the documentary when had the sense that the conservatorship has 0:08:18.036 --> 0:08:21.796 some fundamentally transformational effect on her how her affairs are run. 0:08:22.156 --> 0:08:25.476 But if actually her wealth is in trust and the 0:08:25.516 --> 0:08:27.916 trustee is not the person who's the conservator, which I 0:08:27.916 --> 0:08:30.556 guess is the father, it may be that it doesn't 0:08:30.596 --> 0:08:34.156 make such a big difference that she's in conservatorship, which 0:08:34.236 --> 0:08:37.436 would in turn, to some degree, undercut the perhaps the 0:08:37.516 --> 0:08:41.196 newsworthiness of the whole formulation, which is, oh my goodness, 0:08:41.236 --> 0:08:42.836 this is so shocking. I mean, if the story were 0:08:43.916 --> 0:08:47.156 stars assets in trust, no one would find that shocking 0:08:47.236 --> 0:08:50.316 because many, many people's assets are in trust. Yes, And 0:08:50.356 --> 0:08:52.636 I want to say two things to that, First of all, 0:08:53.636 --> 0:08:58.476 when you're talking about a celebrity, a celebrity oftentimes engages 0:08:58.516 --> 0:09:01.076 in what we call personal service contracts right when they 0:09:01.116 --> 0:09:06.076 actually agree to perform. That's a personal service contract that 0:09:06.156 --> 0:09:10.316 the trustee of your assets can't make. So there is 0:09:10.356 --> 0:09:13.316 a need for her to have somebody who can make 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:17.396 a decision for things like you know, performing a concerts, 0:09:17.596 --> 0:09:20.956 no doubt. So just to clarify, I think, I think 0:09:20.956 --> 0:09:24.756 I understand. The striking thing then about the conservator is 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:29.436 that Britney Spears can't even sign a contract to appear 0:09:29.796 --> 0:09:31.596 and sing or do whatever it else she'd been doing 0:09:31.596 --> 0:09:35.516 in her appearance without the conservator signing essentially on her 0:09:35.516 --> 0:09:38.516 behalf exactly, Whereas if it were a trust, that's just 0:09:38.636 --> 0:09:40.356 in a trust, you take the asset that you have, 0:09:40.396 --> 0:09:42.636 whether it's money or real estate, you put it into 0:09:42.636 --> 0:09:45.556 the trust, and that asset gets managed, But the trustee 0:09:45.596 --> 0:09:49.436 doesn't manage your day to day affairs, and so that 0:09:49.476 --> 0:09:51.676 does make it actually pretty distinctive. Well, that sounds like 0:09:51.676 --> 0:09:55.116 it's more of a justification for the documentary than there 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:58.036 otherwise might have been. Yeah, certainly in the context of 0:09:58.036 --> 0:10:01.236 an entertainer. But it's really important though to understand that 0:10:01.316 --> 0:10:08.036 conservatorships are actually fairly limited in terms of what they 0:10:08.076 --> 0:10:10.956 can really do. To text somebody, yes, they can make 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:14.516 sure that if there's a contract that needs to be signed, 0:10:15.556 --> 0:10:19.396 a conservator has to sign that contract. You can't walk 0:10:19.516 --> 0:10:22.916 up to somebody who's incapacitated and have them sign away 0:10:22.996 --> 0:10:26.156 their you know, their house that you don't have the 0:10:26.156 --> 0:10:28.876 power to do that. The problem a lot of times 0:10:28.876 --> 0:10:33.476 with conservatorships, though, is they are limited in terms of 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:36.036 how much you can really help a person. And let 0:10:36.076 --> 0:10:39.356 me explain to what I mean by that. One of 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:42.836 the most heartbreaking things that I have in my practice 0:10:42.916 --> 0:10:45.556 is I get parents who call me all the time 0:10:45.596 --> 0:10:49.676 and they have kids who are adults, but they have 0:10:49.796 --> 0:10:54.316 terrible drug problems, they have terrible eating disorders. They really are, 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:58.076 you know, having problems living on the street, and they 0:10:58.116 --> 0:11:00.876 really need help. And what I have to tell them 0:11:01.236 --> 0:11:04.716 is a conservatorship is probably not going to help. And 0:11:04.796 --> 0:11:09.556 the reason is that you can't really force somebody who's 0:11:09.596 --> 0:11:14.516 in a conservatorship to be compliant with things like medications 0:11:15.036 --> 0:11:19.676 or going into a treatment program. You can't sign somebody 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:23.996 into a lockdown facility, you can't force them to take medications, 0:11:24.036 --> 0:11:27.516 so if they're really not compliant, if they're not willing 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:31.676 to cooperate, conservatorships are pretty limited. There's a whole separate 0:11:31.716 --> 0:11:37.476 type of conservatorship that's called an LPs conservatorship in California, 0:11:37.516 --> 0:11:41.916 which are the initials for the legislators who designed it, 0:11:42.956 --> 0:11:47.076 and that's a conservatorship where you can actually lock somebody up, 0:11:47.196 --> 0:11:49.556 you can put them in a mental institution, you can 0:11:49.596 --> 0:11:55.276 force medications and so forth. They're extremely rare that you 0:11:55.356 --> 0:11:58.636 have to prove by essentially a quasi criminal standard, that 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.516 they're gravely disabled and there are a threat to either 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:07.436 themselves or others. And no one accept a mental health 0:12:07.996 --> 0:12:12.036 facility a hospital, but all a psychiatric award can actually 0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:15.756 seek that type of conservatorship. So a family member can't, 0:12:16.636 --> 0:12:19.316 a friend can't. It's got to be the hospital that 0:12:19.436 --> 0:12:23.556 says we need this protection for that person. So conservatorships 0:12:23.556 --> 0:12:26.676 the kind that Britney is in are actually pretty limited. 0:12:27.396 --> 0:12:29.396 That other kind you're describing, the LPs kind of sounds 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:33.236 like it's a version of civil committal. It really is, yeah, 0:12:33.276 --> 0:12:34.996 where you have to prove to the court, you know, 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:36.836 by a very very high standard, that the prisoners are 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:38.396 threat to themselves. Or others, and then they can be 0:12:38.436 --> 0:12:42.356 involuntarily restrained in a range of ways. That's right. Yeah, 0:12:42.396 --> 0:12:44.676 And so you know there's a lot of stuff out 0:12:44.716 --> 0:12:49.316 there about you know, Britney can't, can't leave the house, 0:12:49.436 --> 0:12:52.676 she can't take a walk, she can't. None of that's true. 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:55.556 None of that is None of that is true. It's 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:58.636 great that people are now interested in what is a 0:12:58.676 --> 0:13:03.676 conservatorship and doesn't really work, and that is important. But unfortunately, 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:05.436 and I know this is going to be shocking to you, 0:13:05.516 --> 0:13:10.236 but there are legislators who like to grahamstand and in 0:13:10.236 --> 0:13:13.436 our country, yeah, and want to you know, show that 0:13:13.476 --> 0:13:17.236 they're you know, being responsive to to some public outcry. 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:23.236 And you know, my fear is that all the attention 0:13:23.316 --> 0:13:27.516 that this is getting will lead to some laws that 0:13:28.156 --> 0:13:32.116 will undermine the system and leave people who really need 0:13:32.196 --> 0:13:37.556 protection without the protection that they that they really do need. So, Laura, 0:13:37.596 --> 0:13:40.156 form that makes it much harder to get conservatorships will 0:13:40.196 --> 0:13:43.476 therefore leave fewer people with conservatorships. That it will also 0:13:43.636 --> 0:13:46.836 probably raise the cost people probably have to pay attorney's 0:13:46.836 --> 0:13:49.116 fees to get this done, and it will cost them more. 0:13:49.196 --> 0:13:53.716 Presumably what about the who guards the guardians problem? Once 0:13:53.756 --> 0:13:58.076 you are the conservator, is there any function or role 0:13:58.196 --> 0:14:00.756 for anybody to look over the shoulder of the conservator 0:14:01.356 --> 0:14:04.316 and check on the quality of the work that person 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:07.156 is doing. Yeah, so that's a that's a really great question. 0:14:07.716 --> 0:14:11.836 So look, first of all, let me say I don't 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:17.236 think the problem with conservatorships or necessarily this conservatorship is 0:14:17.236 --> 0:14:21.036 a problem of the law. I think the law in 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:25.716 terms of the framework that it establishes is appropriate, and 0:14:25.796 --> 0:14:29.756 it balances the difficult nature of trying to obtain a 0:14:29.796 --> 0:14:33.516 conservatorship and maintain a conservatorship even after you get it, 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:39.596 and protecting the rights of the proposed conservaty. But you know, 0:14:40.116 --> 0:14:44.396 we have a judicial system that has elasticity because we 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:47.436 need to make sure that in each appropriate case it 0:14:47.516 --> 0:14:50.076 makes sense based on the facts of that case. And 0:14:50.156 --> 0:14:52.756 we also have a system that depends on people, and 0:14:52.876 --> 0:14:59.396 that means we have lawyers, we have judges and other professionals, doctors, 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:02.956 court investigators, all of whom we're human. And it is 0:15:03.436 --> 0:15:08.876 possible that you will find somebody who is corrupt, who 0:15:08.996 --> 0:15:12.396 is unethical, or judge who frankly isn't that smart. It 0:15:12.396 --> 0:15:15.396 makes a bad decision, believe it or not, that happens shocking, 0:15:15.516 --> 0:15:20.116 But so far I've yet to see a judicial system 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:24.476 that's better than ours in terms of the advocacy that 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:29.676 it's based on. An advocacy that is, everybody's interests being 0:15:29.916 --> 0:15:32.676 argued to the court, and the court making a decision 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:37.556 is the best way to find the best version of 0:15:37.596 --> 0:15:41.196 the truth. As Woodward and burst In say, let me 0:15:41.236 --> 0:15:44.236 ask you about the advocacy structures and how they worked here. So, 0:15:45.076 --> 0:15:49.036 if there's an application for a conservatorship, does that automatically 0:15:49.076 --> 0:15:51.996 mean that sort of counsel is appointed if the person 0:15:52.356 --> 0:15:55.996 for whom it sought just acquiescence. I mean, Brittany didn't 0:15:56.036 --> 0:16:00.396 contest this conservatorship, did she? She didn't. So let me 0:16:00.476 --> 0:16:04.996 just back up a little bit and tell you we 0:16:05.076 --> 0:16:08.356 have somebody who can petition the court for a conservatorship. 0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:11.236 That can be a family member, that can be a friend, 0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:14.436 who can ask the court to establish a conservatorship, and 0:16:14.476 --> 0:16:16.876 they're the one who have to prove that a conservatorship 0:16:16.956 --> 0:16:21.956 is necessary. Other friends, family members can object, can show 0:16:22.036 --> 0:16:25.476 up with lawyers and evidence and argue why a conservatorship 0:16:25.556 --> 0:16:28.876 is not appropriate, And of course the proposed conservaty can 0:16:28.956 --> 0:16:31.116 do that also, and a judge will have to make 0:16:31.116 --> 0:16:35.316 a decision at a trial, and in California, the conservaty 0:16:35.356 --> 0:16:38.876 can ask for a jury trial as well. Now, who 0:16:38.956 --> 0:16:42.076 represents the proposed conservaty? And I want to make a 0:16:42.116 --> 0:16:46.156 distinction between when the person is a proposed conservaty and 0:16:46.236 --> 0:16:49.956 when the person is under a conservatorship. So when the 0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:54.556 person is a proposed conservaty under California law and law 0:16:54.596 --> 0:16:57.796 in most states, they have the right to have counsel 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:03.156 of their own choice unless they if they're unable to 0:17:03.476 --> 0:17:08.396 retain counsel, then the court will appoint counsel for them. Okay, 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:11.956 somebody who is experienced in the area, and the court 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:14.636 knows and can appoint the first So that's a narrow 0:17:14.676 --> 0:17:19.196 band because they have to be incompetent enough to merit conservatorship, 0:17:19.316 --> 0:17:22.996 but not so incompetent that they couldn't hire counsels. That's right. 0:17:23.076 --> 0:17:28.156 And it's not entirely clear what it means to say 0:17:28.196 --> 0:17:33.276 that they are unable to retain counsel, because until there's 0:17:33.276 --> 0:17:38.876 a conservatorship, there hasn't been an adjudication that they are incompetent. Okay, 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:43.396 So here's a perfect example. Adam Streisan is hired by 0:17:43.396 --> 0:17:47.516 Brittany right, her family law attorneys contact me, asked me 0:17:47.796 --> 0:17:49.516 to get involved because they know me and they know 0:17:49.636 --> 0:17:51.716 my reputation. And then I do this kind of thing. 0:17:52.196 --> 0:17:55.716 I meet with Brittany a couple of times. We have 0:17:56.276 --> 0:18:00.516 lots of communication and otherwise by telephone. We talk about 0:18:00.556 --> 0:18:03.516 what the circumstances are. Now I can tell you what 0:18:03.556 --> 0:18:07.276 I told the court because that's publicly. Shout right, it's public. 0:18:07.756 --> 0:18:10.836 And so I told the court with Brittany and I 0:18:10.916 --> 0:18:12.996 agreed I would tell the court. What I did tell 0:18:13.036 --> 0:18:18.676 the court is, Look, she understands that this conservatorship is 0:18:19.156 --> 0:18:22.036 an inevitability. I mean, right now, things are out of control, 0:18:22.076 --> 0:18:26.716 and she gets that resisting the conservatorship is going to 0:18:26.756 --> 0:18:29.996 be very difficult but the one thing that she wants 0:18:30.156 --> 0:18:33.396 and difficult legally. Just forgive me for asking the clarifying question. 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:37.276 But of course what's is fascinating but difficult. How difficult 0:18:37.316 --> 0:18:38.876 that she couldn't have won? I mean she has Adam 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:42.276 streisand representing her. If you had sought to oppose it, 0:18:42.476 --> 0:18:46.836 you would have successfully opposed it. Well, I mean, I 0:18:46.876 --> 0:18:50.316 appreciate your confidence in me, and I also have a 0:18:50.396 --> 0:18:52.676 high level of confidence in my own abilities, But the 0:18:52.716 --> 0:18:56.636 fact of the matter must know that there was clearly 0:18:56.676 --> 0:19:02.116 there was medical evidence that she has some fairly serious 0:19:02.196 --> 0:19:06.476 mental illness. I don't know exactly what that is. We'll 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:09.596 talk about that a little bit is more, but we 0:19:09.676 --> 0:19:15.436 also know because it was very public the kinds of 0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:18.236 things that were going on with her, and she was, 0:19:19.036 --> 0:19:22.156 you know, she was out of control. Now, frankly, ask 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:26.396 yourself how you would feel with all of the hundreds 0:19:26.396 --> 0:19:29.316 of paparazzi all over you, which I got to witness firsthand, 0:19:29.436 --> 0:19:32.916 and was insane. I don't know how that doesn't make 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:35.116 you feel crazy. I mean, but it's not. That's different 0:19:35.116 --> 0:19:38.756 than underlying mental illness. That's true. Yeah, Well, if you 0:19:38.796 --> 0:19:41.756 have underlying mental illness and you are hounded by hundreds 0:19:41.796 --> 0:19:44.756 of paparazzi and your husband is not allowing you to 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:48.796 see your kids, that would make anybody pretty out of control. 0:19:49.636 --> 0:19:52.636 And again I'm saying out of control. I don't mean 0:19:52.676 --> 0:19:55.876 to say she's crazy or anything. Of course, things were 0:19:55.916 --> 0:19:59.316 out of control, and it was very public, and it 0:19:59.436 --> 0:20:04.596 was clear that the court, at least on an interim basis, 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:09.556 was going to put in some protection for her. It 0:20:09.596 --> 0:20:13.676 was my judgment that what we ought to do is 0:20:13.756 --> 0:20:15.596 we ought to try to get the one thing that 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:18.636 really really mattered to her, which is, I don't want 0:20:18.676 --> 0:20:21.996 my father controlling my life, okay, which is something we 0:20:21.996 --> 0:20:25.596 ought to talk about. And if we could do that, 0:20:25.676 --> 0:20:29.036 if we could get an appropriate person, an independent professional, 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:32.676 to be that conservator for some interim basis, and then 0:20:32.756 --> 0:20:34.956 work to try to figure out, all, right, how do 0:20:34.996 --> 0:20:37.556 we get a little bit more control over our life, 0:20:37.836 --> 0:20:40.956 and you know, and move on. And again, Also, I 0:20:41.036 --> 0:20:44.436 didn't know the extent of her of her mental illness 0:20:45.116 --> 0:20:48.116 when I walked into court. The judge said to me, 0:20:48.476 --> 0:20:51.756 mister Streisan, I have a medical report I'm not going 0:20:51.796 --> 0:20:55.396 to show it to you from doctor James Edward Sparr. 0:20:55.516 --> 0:20:58.076 Now I know doctor Sparr. I've known him for years. 0:20:58.396 --> 0:21:01.716 I know the guy is a man of integrity. I 0:21:01.876 --> 0:21:05.316 know that he is the best of what he does 0:21:05.356 --> 0:21:08.996 in terms of valuating mental illness. And the judge tells 0:21:08.996 --> 0:21:12.516 me that doctor spar has concluded that she suffers from 0:21:12.876 --> 0:21:16.996 mental illness to the point where she cannot retain a 0:21:17.036 --> 0:21:21.516 direct counsel. Now, my perspective was she made some pretty 0:21:21.556 --> 0:21:25.076 sound judgments, right. She was able to take my advice. Hey, 0:21:25.276 --> 0:21:30.276 let's not try to resist. This will look reasonable. We'll 0:21:30.316 --> 0:21:32.916 get the thing you really really want right now, which 0:21:33.036 --> 0:21:35.796 is not your father, and then we'll work on the 0:21:35.796 --> 0:21:40.556 next step of doing away with the conservatorship framework. I 0:21:40.636 --> 0:21:43.196 thought that was pretty sad. But I'm not a doctor, right, 0:21:43.596 --> 0:21:47.556 And if doctor Sparr says she's really that bad, I 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:52.156 said to the court, if doctor Sparr has concluded that, 0:21:52.676 --> 0:21:55.076 I accept that. I mean, I respect doctor Sparr. And 0:21:55.076 --> 0:21:57.756 if the court feels that she would be better served 0:21:58.276 --> 0:22:11.836 with another lawyer, that's fine. We'll be right back. Can 0:22:11.876 --> 0:22:14.516 I ask a a sort of loggy question here? Sure 0:22:15.316 --> 0:22:17.716 was she your client at this point or were someone 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:21.156 else your client? She was my client. She signed an 0:22:21.156 --> 0:22:24.156 engagement agreement with me. She you know, we met, we 0:22:24.276 --> 0:22:26.476 discussed the term. So when the court said that she 0:22:26.556 --> 0:22:29.396 lacked the capacity to retain counsel, what did that This 0:22:29.476 --> 0:22:31.676 is the loggy question. What did that do to your 0:22:31.756 --> 0:22:35.716 existing representational relationship with her? I mean, you had she 0:22:35.796 --> 0:22:38.076 had signed an agreement with you, and there's the court 0:22:38.156 --> 0:22:41.356 telling you her lawyer that she lacks the capacity to retainue. 0:22:41.396 --> 0:22:44.876 So I mean, what happens? Well, you know, could I 0:22:44.956 --> 0:22:48.716 have fought it. I probably could have fought it. I 0:22:48.796 --> 0:22:53.156 did have again, respect for the conclusions that doctor Sparr reached. 0:22:53.876 --> 0:22:59.156 If she had been adjudicated as being incompetent, that would 0:22:59.196 --> 0:23:01.876 have seriously put into question whether or not she could 0:23:01.876 --> 0:23:06.116 have maintained an attorney client relationship with me. Once she's 0:23:06.116 --> 0:23:09.516 a conservative, Once there's an adjudication she lacks capa ascity 0:23:09.596 --> 0:23:13.956 to contract, then there's a question about whether she should 0:23:13.956 --> 0:23:16.596 be able to have a person represent her that she 0:23:16.636 --> 0:23:20.116 wants to represent her. And the law doesn't say you can't. 0:23:20.756 --> 0:23:23.796 The law doesn't say. The court couldn't have said, sure, 0:23:23.916 --> 0:23:25.956 you know, mister Stisan, we're going to allow you to 0:23:25.996 --> 0:23:29.596 be the lawyer. But the court has more latitude at 0:23:29.596 --> 0:23:32.156 that point to say no, we're going to appoint somebody. 0:23:32.316 --> 0:23:38.036 And it's important to remember something. First of all, Judge 0:23:38.076 --> 0:23:41.036 Gets was Commissioner Gets at the time. She was new 0:23:41.076 --> 0:23:43.396 to the bench, she was brand new to probate. She 0:23:43.436 --> 0:23:46.116 didn't know me. Frankly, if the decision were made today 0:23:46.196 --> 0:23:48.356 she knows me now, I'm sure the decision would have 0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:51.636 been different. But she didn't know me. And I'm walking 0:23:51.676 --> 0:23:55.436 into the courtroom saying I represent Britney spears. Now, I 0:23:55.516 --> 0:24:00.956 could be part of the gang who's under the influencinger 0:24:00.956 --> 0:24:02.996 and trying to take advantage of her. I could be 0:24:03.396 --> 0:24:07.596 somebody who is being really being retained or pushed on 0:24:07.756 --> 0:24:11.636 Britney by somebody who is manipulating her. And so I 0:24:11.676 --> 0:24:15.676 think there is an important role for the court to 0:24:15.796 --> 0:24:20.036 play in saying, you know what. It is important for 0:24:20.076 --> 0:24:22.196 the Conservaty to have the right to say, this is 0:24:22.276 --> 0:24:25.796 somebody I want to represent me. But it's also important 0:24:25.796 --> 0:24:27.716 for the court to have the ability to say, you 0:24:27.756 --> 0:24:31.836 know what, I've got enough evidence here that makes me think, 0:24:32.956 --> 0:24:36.156 you know, it'd be better to appoint somebody to represent 0:24:36.196 --> 0:24:38.516 the Conservaty. That's what happened at that moment, right. The 0:24:38.756 --> 0:24:42.196 Court then appointed different counsel for her, and then that 0:24:42.236 --> 0:24:46.236 council made a decision not to contest the conservatorship. Is 0:24:46.276 --> 0:24:50.996 that right? Not only that, but that council Sammingham made 0:24:50.996 --> 0:24:56.236 a decision for the past twelve years not to contest 0:24:56.676 --> 0:24:59.236 the appointment of her father as the Conservative, which I 0:24:59.276 --> 0:25:02.116 found very curious. Now, is it I don't know what 0:25:02.196 --> 0:25:05.596 happens in closed room between her and her council. Is 0:25:05.636 --> 0:25:08.876 it possible that a different decision was made and that 0:25:09.276 --> 0:25:13.636 made a rational decision at that point, or or is 0:25:13.636 --> 0:25:18.836