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Speaker 1: Welcome to Daily Variety, your daily dose of news and

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Speaker 1: analysis for entertainment industry insiders. It's Thursday, September eleventh, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five. I'm your host, Cynthia Littleton. I am co

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of Variety alongside Ramin Setuda. I'm in

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Speaker 1: LA He's in New York, and Variety has reporters around

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Speaker 1: the world covering the business of entertainment. In today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we'll hear from Chris Rice and Graham Taylor. Those two

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Speaker 1: are co CEOs of Fifth Season, the production banner behind

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Speaker 1: the Apple TV Plus drama Severance, which lapped the field

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Speaker 1: this year with Emmy nominations. And we'll hear from Variety

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Speaker 1: Television editor Michael Schneider on why he thinks the Television

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Speaker 1: Academy should stop thinking about the wheel and start thinking

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Speaker 1: about a roadblock when it comes to the Emmys. Mike

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Speaker 1: will explain before we get to that. Here are a

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Speaker 1: few headlines just in this morning that you need to know.

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Speaker 1: Francis Canal Plus is really going forward on its expansion plans.

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Speaker 1: The company has hired Paul Gilbert to serve as Senior

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Speaker 1: VP of English Language Series based in London. He's the

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Speaker 1: former commissioning editor of Sky Studios. Netflix has ordered an

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Speaker 1: animated comedy from Ricky Gervase. Ali Kats is described as

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Speaker 1: a slacker sitcom that follows the trials and tribulations of

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Speaker 1: a group of feral British cats from all walks of society.

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Speaker 1: It's got a six episode order. Harbor View Equity Partners

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Speaker 1: has led a thirty million dollar investment in Lion Forge Entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Lion Forge is the production banner behind the HBO Max

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Speaker 1: animated series Ayanu, and it specializes in kids and family entertainment.

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Speaker 1: All of these stories and so much more can be

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Speaker 1: found on Variety dot com. Right now, Now we turn

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Speaker 1: to conversations with industry leaders and Variety journalists about new

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Speaker 1: us and trends in show business today. Our guests are

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Speaker 1: Graham Taylor and Chris Rice, the co CEOs of fifth Season.

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Speaker 1: We discuss what all those Emmy nominations mean to them

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Speaker 1: as a business and what's next for the busy banner.

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Speaker 1: Graham Taylor and Chris Rice, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me, Thank you for having us. Thank you. We're

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Speaker 1: talking via video call, but of course you all are

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Speaker 1: just across the courtyard from the Variety building. We do

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Speaker 1: share a common building here in West La so Hey neighbors.

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Speaker 1: Very belated congratulations on that boat load of Emmy nominations

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Speaker 1: that you got this year for Severance twenty seven leading

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Speaker 1: the pack. What was that like?

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Speaker 2: I think probably surreal, Maybe felt like a moment in Severance. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: obviously we'd hoped for some love, but hadn't imagined what happens.

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Speaker 2: You know, twenty seven is an unimaginable number for us,

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Speaker 2: I think, so we were extremely pleased and extremely grateful

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Speaker 2: and happy for all the incredible people who make the show.

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Speaker 2: Just an incredible assemblage of craftsmen and women, kind of

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Speaker 2: mind blowing dream team of creatives that together have managed

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Speaker 2: to weave a special and unique voice Graham.

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Speaker 3: In a world where I think, certainly Chris and I

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Speaker 3: and our colleagues like we long for, strive for and

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Speaker 3: pursue original storytelling, it's nice to see that embraced and

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Speaker 3: supported by critics and fans, and certainly my status saw

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Speaker 3: my twelve year old daughter's soccer team. I've definitely gotten

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Speaker 3: up one notch. They make me carry the tent a

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Speaker 3: lot less.

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Speaker 1: But let me ask you, from a hard nosed business

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Speaker 1: perspective at the nomination stage. Does that outpouring of nomination

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Speaker 1: change anything per Severance as a business. Does it allow

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Speaker 1: you to license it for more money in other territories.

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Speaker 2: It's unquestionably concrete for us as a business because I

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Speaker 2: think Fifth Season from the day one, has been trying

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Speaker 2: to build a place as the home for the best

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Speaker 2: creatives to come with truly original stories and make films

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Speaker 2: and TV shows that feel authored and original and unique.

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Speaker 2: And to have such success with one of them obviously

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Speaker 2: helps drive people to be in business with us and

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Speaker 2: helps create a place that hopefully the best people want

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Speaker 2: to come and work, and that for us is everything.

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Speaker 1: Quite a calling card. Let me ask a very specific

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Speaker 1: question Severance as a business property for fifth Season. Obviously

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Speaker 1: it's a very expensive show and Apple pays the license fee.

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Speaker 1: Are you able to license that in other markets? Is

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Speaker 1: Severance able to become a really strong ongoing business for

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Speaker 1: fifth Season versus a more traditional streaming deal where they

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Speaker 1: pay you upfront and they have the license for a

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Speaker 1: very long time.

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Speaker 3: I think the interesting thing to look at, right, I

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Speaker 3: think even on any of these shows where we're licensing

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Speaker 3: that first streaming window is looking at what the value

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Speaker 3: of our retain rights. What's going to be the value

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Speaker 3: of linear television and est and DVD and merch and

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Speaker 3: all the things that we do hold back from the

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Speaker 3: streamers and sometimes will work to exploit those rights with them,

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Speaker 3: or it'll be interesting to see as the world opens up,

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Speaker 3: particularly linear in every territory around the world, what is

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Speaker 3: the appetite and the business around those rights. I think

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Speaker 3: it's going to be a fascinating thing to watch.

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Speaker 1: After season two. I would imagine you'd have a merchandise

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Speaker 1: opportunity with some very fancy marching band uniforms.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, working on it.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you about the business around series in

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Speaker 1: the old days that everybody was shooting for er and

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Speaker 1: law and order beyond the air. As long as you

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Speaker 1: can to mass as many seasons and episodes for a

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Speaker 1: show like Severance, if it goes for seasons, five seasons,

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Speaker 1: even six seasons, can that be a very healthy business

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Speaker 1: for you over the long.

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Speaker 3: I think both both can be true, right, which is

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Speaker 3: the four or five six seasons of a streaming show

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Speaker 3: is very valuable and creates a lot of economics. But

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Speaker 3: that is kind of apples to oranges to the economics

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Speaker 3: of the Seinfelder Friends or shows like that. They're that

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Speaker 3: historical opportunity for syndication, not that there's no upsides when

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Speaker 3: something's really successful. Again, when one's a bigger studio, one

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Speaker 3: can retain will rights, monetize those rights through our range

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Speaker 3: distribution businesses. There are obviously other models out that, having

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Speaker 3: come out of independent film for one hundred and fifty years,

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Speaker 3: that still is a business of anomalies of a half

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Speaker 3: dozen that actually really kind of breakthrough. One of the

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Speaker 3: things I do love about this new era of let's

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Speaker 3: call it streaming television is I love to call it

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Speaker 3: six to ten hour format of storytelling creatively, so longer move.

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Speaker 3: It's really interesting to see what these filmmakers can create

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Speaker 3: and achieve in that sort of banned of keeping things compelling.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, it mainly have two seasons of

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Speaker 3: a life that's interesting to tell creatively, or three or

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Speaker 3: four or five to me as part of the excitement

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Speaker 3: of how do you break in, how you break those

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Speaker 3: stories and let them live and breathe.

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Speaker 1: The company started out as it in depor content, became

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Speaker 1: fifth season a couple of years ago. What has been

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Speaker 1: the best advantage to be able to really build this

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Speaker 1: company from scratch. What have you been able to do

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Speaker 1: in the design of the company that is an advantage

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Speaker 1: over an established studio.

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Speaker 3: For me personally, having had experience on the other side,

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Speaker 3: is I always found it frustrated when dealing with studios

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Speaker 3: where it felt like they were highly siloed. Movie people

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Speaker 3: didn't talk to TV people, and it very much felt

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Speaker 3: like a lot of independent contractors. So I think it

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Speaker 3: was really important to us that it's a highly collaborative,

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Speaker 3: highly entrepreneurial environment where people are empowered. You've had to

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Speaker 3: find great people and you've really got to trust them

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Speaker 3: and empower them.

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Speaker 2: Both Graham and I started off koreas as produce as

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Speaker 2: Ben went to work inside a talent agency, not as

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Speaker 2: agents necessarily, but as business builders and support for talent,

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Speaker 2: building their projects and financing them and distributing them. And

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Speaker 2: I think during that phase we saw how a good

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Speaker 2: experience for talent, for lawyers, managers, agents, kind of everyone

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Speaker 2: in that ecosystem, what a good experience was and what

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Speaker 2: a bad experience was. That was always central to how

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Speaker 2: we built Endeavor content. And then fifth season was trying

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Speaker 2: to be a place that would give a good experience

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Speaker 2: to all the creative participants, and that became kind of

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Speaker 2: central as a philosophy to our company. I think that

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Speaker 2: helped us to maybe be a bit more nimble and

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Speaker 2: do deals in ways that were just slightly different from traditional.

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Speaker 1: Christ and Graham. Thank you so much for taking some

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Speaker 1: time out. I know this is a busy week for you.

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Speaker 1: You have the high class problem of a lot of

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Speaker 1: events to attend. Let me ask you TV or film

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Speaker 1: anything coming up for fifth season that you'd like to

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Speaker 1: point out.

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Speaker 2: We have Chief of War running right now on Apple Episodes.

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Speaker 2: Another episode drops later this week, which.

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Speaker 1: Varieties Aramade Tanubu gave a rave review to.

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Speaker 2: It is a fantastic show. I think again speaks to

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Speaker 2: kind of originality. You've not seen anything like this before.

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Speaker 2: We've got Savants coming out on Apple TV Plus with

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Speaker 2: Jessica chen Ding. We have the incredible East of Eden

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Speaker 2: next year on Netflix, which we're really excited about. His

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Speaker 2: and Hers also on Netflix. So we've got a great

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Speaker 2: raft of TV shows being made, and we've got a

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Speaker 2: fantastic group of movies.

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Speaker 3: Post including Yan Kamasa's The Anniversary coming out through the

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Speaker 3: lions Gate which is spectacular. So we have a lot

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Speaker 3: coming down the pike.

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Speaker 1: Chris and Graham, thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: I will see you in the Emmy swirl cheers. And

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Speaker 1: now here's Michael Schneider. He's got a big idea for

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Speaker 1: how the Emmy Awards should negotiate their next TV rights deal.

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Speaker 1: I think it's an idea whose time has come. Hello

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Speaker 1: Michael Schneider, Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely happy Emmys.

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Speaker 1: This is your busy season. You've been on several times

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Speaker 1: this week.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, I wanted.

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Speaker 1: To talk to you about your award circuit Emmy column

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Speaker 1: that you wrote last week. You made a forceful argument

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Speaker 1: for a significant change in the way the annual Emmy

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Speaker 1: Awards telecast is carried to the masses every year. Tell

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Speaker 1: us why you think it's time that the Emmy really

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Speaker 1: changes up their game in the way that they licensed

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Speaker 1: the Awards telecast itself to networks.

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Speaker 4: Sure, sure, so. As a quick primer for folks right now,

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Speaker 4: and this is the way it's been since nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 4: The Emmys actually are on a rotating wheel in that

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Speaker 4: every year a different network runs the Emmys cycle of

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Speaker 4: four networks, ABC, NBCCBS, and Fox, and they take turns

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Speaker 4: running it that way, it's fair that way, everyone has

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Speaker 4: a piece of the Emmys. But that was fine back

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Speaker 4: in the pre streaming era, where first off, people were

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Speaker 4: pretty much just watching broadcast TV, so there was a

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Speaker 4: good chance that they would run into the Emms and

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Speaker 4: watch it. But in this era, where there are so

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Speaker 4: many different streamers, so many different ways to watch TV,

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Speaker 4: there's just no reason to tune into a single network

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Speaker 4: carrying the Emmys unless you're a super fan of award shows.

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Speaker 4: So my ideal was the Wheel had its day. But

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Speaker 4: with the Wheel deal expiring next year, NBC has the

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Speaker 4: Ememes next year, CBS has it this year. After that

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Speaker 4: that the deal is up, and the TV Academy, actually

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Speaker 4: starting next week after this year's ceremony, can start shopping

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Speaker 4: around a new deal. So, rather than renewing this Wheel

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Speaker 4: deal the way it is now or just finding an

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Speaker 4: exclusive part which never really works because then you're relegating

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Speaker 4: the Emmys to just one home and none of the

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Speaker 4: other outlets have any skin in the game and no

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Speaker 4: reason to support the Emmys, why not give everyone the

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Speaker 4: Emmys and follow a model that has actually been done

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Speaker 4: pretty effectively with charity events through the years. Well, usually

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Speaker 4: when there's another big disaster, there's a charity event that

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Speaker 4: comes after, and every network, every streamer will then run

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Speaker 4: that charity event. It's called a roadblock. Why don't we

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Speaker 4: do that with the most important broadcast of the television year,

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Speaker 4: which is greating itself.

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Speaker 1: Roadblocks, especially in southern California are never welcome, but in

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Speaker 1: this case, an airwaves roadblock for a couple hours a night,

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Speaker 1: one night a year. Your argument just made a lot

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Speaker 1: of sense to me as I was proofing it, but really,

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Speaker 1: as you think about it, because everybody's everybody is invested

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Speaker 1: in getting people excited about the medium. In the past,

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Speaker 1: the largest network in the past, the broadcast networks, the

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Speaker 1: big four that carry it. Those networks, if you've been

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Speaker 1: paying attention, have not been front and center in the

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Speaker 1: Emmy race, which is another reason why Kathy Bates snagging

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Speaker 1: that Emmy nomination for her work in Matlock is a

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Speaker 1: big deal for CBS. Did you workshop that at all

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Speaker 1: in terms of talking to people, because again, as you say,

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Speaker 1: roadblocks are well known. The Stand Up to Cancer Telethon

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Speaker 1: has recently been one of those things where you know

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Speaker 1: virtually everybody can get behind and donate an hour of

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Speaker 1: time to this most worthy cause. And it really makes

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Speaker 1: a difference. If you're a viewer and you're flipping around

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Speaker 1: and you see the same thing on one channel, you're

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Speaker 1: going to pay attention to that because it's that's unusual.

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Speaker 4: And so yes, I actually did run this by Maury McIntyre,

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Speaker 4: who's the CEO of the TV Academy, and he said

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Speaker 4: he was game. He liked the idea. So I hope

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Speaker 4: that maybe I've sprinkled some ideas for the TV Academy

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Speaker 4: as they sit back down with their network partners and

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Speaker 4: start hashing out whatever this new contract's going to look like.

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Speaker 1: Before I let you go, I won't ask you for predictions,

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Speaker 1: but any thoughts on things that you think people should

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Speaker 1: watch on Sunday night as we get ready for the

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Speaker 1: big show.

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Speaker 4: I think the big question is going to be the

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Speaker 4: pit versus Severance. We saw some interesting signs over the

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Speaker 4: Creative Arts weekend. Severance got six awards, the Pitcot two,

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Speaker 4: but the Pitcot one of the most important ones, which

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Speaker 4: was casting for a drama. And as we know that

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Speaker 4: that acting community is huge, one of the largest voting

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Speaker 4: bodies at the TV Academy, so that could be a

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Speaker 4: sign that we may be heading towards a pit victory,

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Speaker 4: but who knows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's great stories either way.

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Speaker 1: But Michael, thank you. It's going to be a busy weekend.

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Speaker 1: Very curious to see what happens on the other side

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 3: Here we go.

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Speaker 1: As we close out today's episode, I want to take

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Speaker 1: a moment to remember that this is September eleventh. The

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Speaker 1: passage of time has eased the pain of that day

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Speaker 1: for many us, but an event like the shocking murder

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday of conservative activist Charlie Kirk brings it all back.

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Speaker 1: Nine to eleven was an act of stunning political violence.

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Speaker 1: We don't know yet all the circumstances around the killing

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Speaker 1: of Kirk, but we do know that the political rhetoric

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Speaker 1: in this country has been ratcheted to the bursting point,

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Speaker 1: as was the case with nine to eleven. As a nation,

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Speaker 1: we need to look inward and ask ourselves how we

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Speaker 1: got here. A thirty one year old man died senselessly

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Speaker 1: and tragically yesterday. Twenty four years ago today, nearly three

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Speaker 1: thousand people died senselessly and tragically by extremists who believed

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Speaker 1: America was evil Let's never forget how hete stoked by ideology,

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Speaker 1: changed our lives forever. We'll close with a cliff from

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four nine to eleven remembrance ceremony in

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Speaker 1: Lower Manhattan, with the reading of the names of all

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Speaker 1: of those who died when the World Trade Center towers fell.

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Speaker 5: Gordon m Amath and amiro Abod, Marie Rose Abod, Andrew Anthony,

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Speaker 5: ABOUTE Vincent Paul, ABOUTE. Lawrence Christopher, Abel, Alana Abraham, William F. Abrahamson,

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Speaker 5: Richard Anthony, Assito, Heinrich Bernard Ackerman.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. This episode was written and reported by

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Speaker 1: me Cynthia Littleton, with contributions from Michael Schneider. It was

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Speaker 1: edited by Aaron Greenwald Stick's Nick's hick Picks. Please leave

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Speaker 1: us a review at the podcast platform of your choice,

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Speaker 1: and please tune in on Monday for another episode of

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Speaker 1: Daily Variety.