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Speaker 1: Welcome toake it happened here. I am Andrew of Theature

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Speaker 1: channel of Andrewism. Last time I spoke about clonalism's effect

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Speaker 1: on the psyche of the people within it, and today

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about how people under the thumb

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Speaker 1: of clonalism go about deliberation and how that struggle fits

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Speaker 1: within some version of anomic asnalysis. National liberation is a

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Speaker 1: struggle against the relationship of exploitation and domination inflicted upon

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Speaker 1: a nation. It's a struggle against the domination of one

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Speaker 1: people by another, often centered on questions of language, culture, welfare, equality,

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Speaker 1: and land. It has consequences, and it's not something where

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Speaker 1: you can just stand by mutually and ignore. In fact,

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Speaker 1: ignoring national liberation struggles would been sided with national oppression.

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Speaker 1: There's no centrist tiqu Yeah, there's no both sides to

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Speaker 1: the oppression of a people by another. Of course, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that national liberation struggles are free of critique

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Speaker 1: or necessarily morally righteous. National liberation struggles are usually quite diverse.

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Speaker 1: Within them, there are many tendencies at play, from the

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Speaker 1: most reactionary to the most revolutionary. I don't have any

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Speaker 1: immediately come to mind forumia.

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Speaker 2: Oh, God, Yeah, there's.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I think I always think about right,

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Speaker 3: it's like.

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Speaker 2: China's a well, it kind of unique. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of countries that where you get multiple

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Speaker 2: like national liberation movements. China is kind of unique in

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Speaker 2: that we had two nominally left wing national liberation movements

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Speaker 2: and like one of them, one of them is the KMT,

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Speaker 2: who like the the the the the end of their

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Speaker 2: gnatlib arc is like training a bunch of desk squads

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Speaker 2: in El Salvador because they've gotten so good at killing

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Speaker 2: peasants that like, you know, this is what they're doing

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Speaker 2: with their life. And the other one to CCP and

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, okay, like great, great job, guys like liberated.

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Speaker 2: We've liberated a lot of people. We've like you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it's I think I think there's

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Speaker 2: sort of two ways of looking at that, where it's

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Speaker 2: like you have on the one hand, you can look

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Speaker 2: at it from the sort of like worker's perspective, where

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, yeah, okay, so both you have your

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Speaker 2: two national liberation movements and both of them end up

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Speaker 2: machine gunning about a million workers. Depending on like you know,

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Speaker 2: in offset from each other in about forty years. But

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Speaker 2: you know, you have the Shaghai massacre and you have

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Speaker 2: the Culture Revolution. And then I think the other thing

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Speaker 2: that's important when you're looking at like a gnatlib movement

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Speaker 2: is like whose nation is being liberated? And this is

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Speaker 2: something you get with like Indonesia, Right, you have the

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Speaker 2: national liberation movement, but then you simultaneously have like the

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Speaker 2: occupation of West Papua.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like a Russia nest egg of of

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Speaker 1: national oppression, like the like Anesia is being oppressed by

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Speaker 1: the Dutch and then Indonesia and supppression if you for

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Speaker 1: the West Papua and East Timor and all those different places.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you see this a lot with like you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: This is why, like I think I keep coming back

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Speaker 2: to like whose nation is being liberated the thing because

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Speaker 2: it's like, you know, you get this with a lot

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Speaker 2: of like the sort of pan Air movements, and it's like, well, okay,

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Speaker 2: we're doing like resistance to sort of like French or

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Speaker 2: British colonialism. And then like, yes, this is this is

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Speaker 2: okay if you are Arab, like God help you, if

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Speaker 2: you're a curred or like CD or like you know,

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Speaker 2: so there's there's always these sort of I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You have to be careful about who wins the national liberation.

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Speaker 4: Movement exactly exactly, because.

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Speaker 1: No matter where a national liberations struggle is happening, they

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Speaker 1: are most likely minorities.

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Speaker 4: That are not.

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Speaker 1: Encapsulated in that, you know, they are always going to

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Speaker 1: be populations of people who are not of that nation

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Speaker 1: within the territory of the national liberation struggle, and then

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Speaker 1: beyond that, they're also within national liberation struggles other ongoing struggles,

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Speaker 1: including class struggle. While the oppressed classes might claim to

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Speaker 1: national liberation struggle in an effort to defend against foreign

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Speaker 1: subjugation exploitation, the capitalist class is using that struggle for

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Speaker 1: national liberation to consolidate their own power and monopolize their

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Speaker 1: own exportation the working class. A lot of capitalists, their

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Speaker 1: whole investment in national liberation boils down to I don't

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Speaker 1: like the fact that I have to compete with foreign capitalists.

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Speaker 1: I want to compete with local capitalists so I can

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Speaker 1: come out on top. And yeah, that's not cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And then I think another thing that gets conflated when

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Speaker 1: you start talking about national liberation. The liberation of a

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Speaker 1: nation is the concept of nationalism, right. Nationalism is a

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Speaker 1: program that has been proposed, or rather a suite of

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Speaker 1: programs that I've been proposed as a solution to national

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Speaker 1: libation struggles, because I can't even say that nationalism is

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Speaker 1: a single program. Nationalism itself is quite diverse, as we'll

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Speaker 1: soon see. But nationalism is only one response, one possible response.

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Speaker 1: It may be the most common response, but it's only

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Speaker 1: one possible response to the national liberation struggle. And then

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Speaker 1: it's also the terminology that gets modeled when you start

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Speaker 1: talking about nationalism, right, Because, as I defined, national liberation

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Speaker 1: is the struggle of exploited people against a dominating group

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Speaker 1: or against their domination, just generally necessarily against one specific group,

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Speaker 1: could be multiple groups, but it's the struggle of a

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Speaker 1: people against their domination. However, when you get into nationalism,

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Speaker 1: there are forms of nationalism developed by oppressive groups, developed

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Speaker 1: by the oppressors. Sometimes they developed a nationalism in order

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Speaker 1: to more effectively oppress the people they oppress it and so,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you could even argue that there are

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Speaker 1: cases where oppressed nations adopt nationalism as strategy for their

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Speaker 1: liberation and end up pursuing a form of nationalism that

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Speaker 1: is quite similar to that which they were being oppressed under.

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Speaker 1: There's one immediate example that comes to mind, if you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I have like nine so I'm not entirely what you're

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Speaker 3: pointing at.

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Speaker 4: Nine. Okay, Okay, what do you think en of?

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, I wanted to talk about this.

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Speaker 2: I think there's like a very there's like a kind

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Speaker 2: of Chinese nationalism that does this a lot, But this

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Speaker 2: is I think a kind of common thing of like

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Speaker 2: they're one of the sort of responses to colonization that's

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Speaker 2: pretty common. Is this really really this sort of like

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Speaker 2: like quintupling down on patriarchy where you know, you like,

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Speaker 2: because one of the effects of colonization obviously is like

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Speaker 2: the sort of like one of the sort of psychological

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Speaker 2: things is is this sort of like you know, is

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Speaker 2: this installation of of inferiority into the minds of the people

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Speaker 2: who being colonized. And so one of the ways people

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Speaker 2: respond to this is by being like, no, like the

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Speaker 2: colonizers are wrong, Like our men are actually really strong,

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Speaker 2: and like our men are actually incredibly manly, and like

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Speaker 2: we have really really like tight powerful controller of women,

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Speaker 2: and you see this fucking everywhere, right, This is why

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Speaker 2: all of like there's so many sort of like Chinese

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Speaker 2: nationalists who are so obsessed with like these videos of

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Speaker 2: like the like basically indistinguishable from American right wing videos

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Speaker 2: where they're just like walking around with no shirts on

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Speaker 2: and being like, look at how strong I am. It's

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Speaker 2: like you see you see this thing with like HN

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Speaker 2: do for people too, where's like they do like exactly

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Speaker 2: the same ship. Like it's all over the fucking place.

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Speaker 2: You can see you can see the Taliban doing this

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Speaker 2: now too, and it's like it's it's like it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's they very cool.

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Speaker 1: They're seeing colonization as emasculating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and and and that's you know, and I

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Speaker 2: think there's there's there's this mode of like reactionary anti

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Speaker 2: colonialism where it's like they see it as emasculating and

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Speaker 2: they see the problem with colonization was it stopped them

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Speaker 2: from being an empire. And you see you see this

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Speaker 2: a lot with Chinese nationalism where it's like you know,

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Speaker 2: like they're they're they're their effective problem with like the

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Speaker 2: century humiliation was that they didn't get to keep being

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Speaker 2: the ching Empire and get to keep colonizing other people.

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Speaker 2: And that's like a very I don't know, I think

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Speaker 2: that that's a very common sort of like thing that

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Speaker 2: happens when this is a very common sort of like

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Speaker 2: ideological basis for sort of the right wing of anti

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Speaker 2: colonial well, I don't know, even calling the manticolonial movement

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like being a bit generous, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think it's a very common form of sort of

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Speaker 2: right wing nationalism that.

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Speaker 3: Emerges as a reaction to colonization.

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Speaker 1: What immediately came to mind to me, and what I

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Speaker 1: was thinking of was Zionism. Yeah, that too, not to

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Speaker 1: be fair, it was oh, rather correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 4: It was a movement that existed prior to World War Two.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, yeah, right.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, the experiences of World War two

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Speaker 1: took place, and there were different paths for the movement

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Speaker 1: could have taken. And I don't want to invalidate the

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Speaker 1: beginnings of the movement considering the experiences of Jewish people

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Speaker 1: for centuries in Europe and the oppression and the programs

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Speaker 1: and so they faced. But what we've seen the fruit

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Speaker 1: of one particular path that that movement undertook, and that

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Speaker 1: path has led to another nation struggling first liberation, and

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Speaker 1: that being the Palestinians.

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Speaker 4: The common example of distinction.

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Speaker 1: Used is that of the distinction between white nationalism and

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Speaker 1: black nationalism, white nationalism having a very clear history of

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Speaker 1: violent supremacy and clualism, while black nationalism was established in

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Speaker 1: response to that experience of subjugation and clualism and with

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Speaker 1: the desire for self determination. The program of nationalism specifically

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Speaker 1: among oppressed nations has generally seen the oppressed nation as

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Speaker 1: a united bloc national liberation movements nationalist movements. Nationalist movements

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Speaker 1: typically ignore class, they ignore gender, they ignore religion, and

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Speaker 1: they know other divisions for the most part. In favor

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Speaker 1: of the development of an independent state, which is usually

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Speaker 1: some form of capitalist either a state capitalist welfare capitalists

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Speaker 1: or a neoliberal capitalist a nationalism is often weaponized and

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Speaker 1: promoted by the ruined class in orders to unite the

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Speaker 1: oppressed classes with their domestic oppressors, replacing foreign capitalists, foreign generals,

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Speaker 1: local generals, and foreign government officials with local officials, in

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Speaker 1: a word, to conceal the importance of class struggle. You

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Speaker 1: see often in the cases of newly independent countries, there's

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Speaker 1: almost a brief haze of rather, let me speak not

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Speaker 1: generally but from my own knowledge of my own history.

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Speaker 1: Triand Tobago gained independence in nineteen sixty two from the British.

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Speaker 1: This was after a very brief period where we experimented

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Speaker 1: with a West Indian Federation, West Indies being a designation

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Speaker 1: of the Caribbean by the British. The federation failed and

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Speaker 1: so Trindad and Tobago struck out on their own, and

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Speaker 1: so Trance Tobago became an independent country in nineteen sixty two,

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Speaker 1: and there was really a sense of.

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Speaker 4: You know, joy and.

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Speaker 1: Jubile and celebration because of that freedom. You know, we

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Speaker 1: finally broke the shackles to the British. However, it was

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Speaker 1: a very recently, a very constitutional independence. You know, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't an independence brought forth by violent struggle. You know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a situation like Algeria. It was more so

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Speaker 1: the British carefully groomed a generation of politicians and political

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Speaker 1: leaders that would and business leaders that would take on

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Speaker 1: the role that they were fulfilling in order to continue

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Speaker 1: that colonial situation in under new management essentially and the

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Speaker 1: more familiar management, and that very quickly became apparent to

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Speaker 1: the population, which is why we had the Black Power

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Speaker 1: Revolution in nineteen seventy. It was borne on to the

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Speaker 1: frustration that new management where everything was pretty much the same.

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Speaker 1: Many people who experience the successes of independence and of

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Speaker 1: nationalism that often bears out independence, they've actually come to

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Speaker 1: recognize that nationalism was not enough. Nationalism has repeatedly failed

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Speaker 1: to solve poverty, to solve oppression and exploitation and suffering,

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Speaker 1: or many states have become formally independent from their clum

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Speaker 1: masters thanks nationalist movements, Newcluanism perseveres, and yet in spite

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Speaker 1: of the continuation of oppression and suffering post independence, you

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Speaker 1: end up seeing some people's response to that being greater

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Speaker 1: nationalism rather than an exploration of other options. So it

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Speaker 1: is this result of nationalism that has led to its

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Speaker 1: criticism and opposition by anarchists. Again, there's a difference between

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Speaker 1: nationalism and national liberation. But in that criticism of nationalism,

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Speaker 1: I see some anarchists, while recognizing that there are class

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Speaker 1: divisions in the nation, end up ignoring national divisions in

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Speaker 1: a class in favor of some ideal and united working class.

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Speaker 1: The truth is that the oppressed classes of some nations

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Speaker 1: have benefited from the domination of the oppressed classes and

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Speaker 1: other nations, So let's not do class reductionism. Nations that

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Speaker 1: have had constant war waged against them for centuries tend

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Speaker 1: to turn in to nationalism for the national liberation.

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Speaker 4: That's obvious.

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Speaker 1: I think you know you cut them some slack for

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Speaker 1: not thinking about the global working class when they are

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Speaker 1: literally under assault for the national identity. When you fighting

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Speaker 1: colonial administrators and foreign armies, you're not studying the class war,

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Speaker 1: which is why historically national liberation struggles use in nationalism

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Speaker 1: have ignored class divisions among the oppressed nation, but not always.

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Speaker 1: Black nationalism, for example, has always been a very diverse

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Speaker 1: political movement with several currents and opposing perspectives within it.

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Speaker 1: The common threat is, of course, irresistance, the predominance the

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Speaker 1: white supremacist system and the assertion of lacks sovereignity. Recognizing

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Speaker 1: that we have to free ourselves without waiting for permission,

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Speaker 1: Recognizing that we have to protect ourselves from the continued

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Speaker 1: assault of the empire of the empire, Recognizing that we

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Speaker 1: can be proud of and love, or bodies or minds

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Speaker 1: on our heritage, or rejection of eurocentrism. And yet some

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Speaker 1: manifestations of black nationalism have been reactionary, capitalistic, morphobic, and patriarchal.

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Speaker 1: Others have student in stock opposition to those currents. In particular,

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Speaker 1: revolutionary black nationalism, unlike other forms of black nationalism, has

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Speaker 1: consistently stood in opposition to all forms of oppression, including imperialism,

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Speaker 1: white supremacy, and capitalism. In my view, and as many

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Speaker 1: other black anarchists have noted, revolutionary black nationalism has a

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Speaker 1: place in the struggle in conjunction with the struggle against patriarchy, capitalism,

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Speaker 1: and the state, as we aim to prefigure world free

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Speaker 1: of all forms of nomination. In spite of our critiques

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Speaker 1: of how nationalism tends to manifest, it is not the

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Speaker 1: only way to undertake national liberation. We can incorporate other

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Speaker 1: fights within that struggle. We can recognize the importance of

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Speaker 1: national liberation whilst staying true to our principles. Anarchism is

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Speaker 1: an internationalist movement. It aims for an entirely new world,

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Speaker 1: not just a pocket of change here and there. But

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Speaker 1: we cannot be so focused on that international struggle that

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Speaker 1: we ignore the very vital local and regional struggles taking place.

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Speaker 1: Internationalism and class struggle are not in contradiction to national

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Speaker 1: liberation struggle. I believe a real internationalism has to stand

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Speaker 1: in solidarity with the working class and peasantry everywhere, including

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Speaker 1: those of oppressed nationalities. However, at the same time, we

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Speaker 1: cannot uncritically support national liberation struggles. We cannot afford to

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Speaker 1: just write a blank check of support. It is necessary

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Speaker 1: to engage politically national liberation movements and engage in dialogues

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Speaker 1: with all of their complexities and contradictions, engaging with and

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Speaker 1: uplifting the progressive elements within those national libraations ruggles while

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Speaker 1: criticizing the reactionary elements within those struggles.

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Speaker 3: I think it's it's incredibly important.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if intervene in them is the correct thing,

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Speaker 2: is the best way to put it, But like you know,

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Speaker 2: from from from the sort of like East Asian perspective,

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Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, so we we had we had three

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Speaker 2: successful national liberation movements like next to each other, and

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Speaker 2: then after they won their national liberation movements, instead of

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Speaker 2: like continuing the war against the US or whatever, they

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Speaker 2: went to war with each.

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Speaker 4: Other, so.

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Speaker 2: You know, you have to sort of like something something,

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Speaker 2: something very clearly went wrong with our Natlib movements when well,

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Speaker 2: I mean obviously, like okay, something went very wrong with

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Speaker 2: Kamara Rouge, but.

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Speaker 4: Like you know, that's that's understates and things.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, yeah, you know that that's city. But like

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Speaker 5: you know, the they're like obviously that like that the

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Speaker 5: Khmara rus was fucked from the start. But you know

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Speaker 5: the fact that like the US and Vietnam, like the

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Speaker 5: Vietnamese like army finally defeats the American colonizers and then

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Speaker 5: basically immediately or invaded by China is a sign that

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Speaker 5: like something went terribly terribly wrong in the process of

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Speaker 5: these struggles, and that like I don't know, if you're

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Speaker 5: we're going to do this properly, you have to make

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Speaker 5: sure that like this shit doesn't happen, because you know,

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Speaker 5: it's it's a just the product of this is just

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Speaker 5: sort of unfathomable human tragedy of a bunch of colonized

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Speaker 5: people fucking murdering each other for like nothing, or you know,

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Speaker 5: I guess like China's obediate I don't know, geopolitical realignment

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Speaker 5: with the US and in exchange for like industrial capital

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Speaker 5: goods or some shit.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you gotta you gotta make sure that

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Speaker 3: doesn't happen.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that means intervening, Okay, like you said, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to say intervening necessarily, but it does require

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Speaker 1: having these discussions rely on, Like you don't wait until

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Speaker 1: after a preventable tragedy takes place to try and prevent

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Speaker 1: a tragedy. You know, if you're seeing signs of that

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Speaker 1: the potential for that, you know, probably do something about it.

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Speaker 1: If a movement is so fragile that a criticism of

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Speaker 1: the way that it's structured, or a criticism of an

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Speaker 1: aspect of its ideology is enough to prevent it from succeeding,

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Speaker 1: or prevent it from collapsing into internal divisions, whatever the

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Speaker 1: case may be, then I don't think that it is

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Speaker 1: robust enough to handle.

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Speaker 4: The struggle for a liberation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's like they're definitely you're definitely going to lose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, if it's easy for an ally to criticize

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Speaker 1: and you know, maybe call something out and that's enough

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Speaker 1: for everything to crumble, how easy do you think it's

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Speaker 1: going to be for like your actual enemy is to

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Speaker 1: like come in and shake things up and like dismantle

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Speaker 1: the organization from the inside. You know, if you if

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Speaker 1: you don't have room for dissent from you know, your allies,

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Speaker 1: from your compatriots.

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Speaker 4: Then what about your enemies.

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Speaker 1: What do you think your enemies are going to try

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Speaker 1: and capitalize on They're going to try and fuel and

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Speaker 1: empower that descent and push it in different directions to

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Speaker 1: even further splinter the movement. You know, it's it's complicated,

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Speaker 1: it's difficult. It's not something that I ever wanted to

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Speaker 1: present myself as having all the answers for. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like certain things should be clear. You know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should try and preventednessues from getting worse if

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Speaker 1: you see, like, for example, a cult of personality develop,

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Speaker 1: and maybe do something about it before that culture personality

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Speaker 1: has you know, guns on their side and the full

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Speaker 1: power of the state apparatus behind them.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's just me though.

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Speaker 1: A truly internationalist position, in my view, recognizes that human

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Speaker 1: unity can only be achieved through mutual respect, solidarity, alliance,

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Speaker 1: and discourse among people's International revolution would require participation in

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Speaker 1: national struggle for self determination and human dignity against computers domination.

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Speaker 1: It will require shift, as I always say, in our powers,

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Speaker 1: in our drives, in our consciousness. I think you want

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Speaker 1: to have sort of our tooth national liberation struggles. It

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Speaker 1: really starts in that realm. And then also I think

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Speaker 1: there are ways that we can, as allies, intervene in

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Speaker 1: certain aspect of that process, you know, in confrontation, lending

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Speaker 1: you know, material support to protests or occupations, in non cooperation,

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Speaker 1: supporting strike funds, in prefiguration, providing resources. You don't want

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Speaker 1: these acts of solidarity to get lost in NGOs or

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Speaker 1: and eat organizations, whatever you're trying to get things. Actually,

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Speaker 1: that's a whole tangent. Let me just scratch that entirely.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go off. I'll leave off by saying

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Speaker 1: that if we oppose male supremacy, the patriarchy, we must

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Speaker 1: support women's fight against it. That does mean blandly supporting,

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Speaker 1: you know, bourgeois liberal boss feminism. It means listening to,

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Speaker 1: learning from and collaboratively developing the revolutionary feminist project to

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Speaker 1: liberate all women for patriarchal domination and ultimately all people.

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Speaker 1: If workers decide to former union in many cases and

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Speaker 1: existing union is pro capitalist and hierarchical. I had despite

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Speaker 1: the structural issues with many unions, we still stand with

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Speaker 1: the workers against the bosses, even as we try to

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Speaker 1: convince them of the need for a transformation of those

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Speaker 1: unions of union militancy, for position to bureaucracy in order

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Speaker 1: to fully liberate them from class domination. Instead of merely

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Speaker 1: engaged in dialogue with the oppressors, we can walk on

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Speaker 1: true them. At the same time as what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to say, we can act in solidarity without being subsut

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Speaker 1: end to what we may perceive to be something that

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Speaker 1: goes against our values. Solidarity, as I like to view it,

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Speaker 1: is a discourse between people's about how we desamine our

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Speaker 1: own freedom. We may disagree with certain things. We can

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Speaker 1: critique certain things we've seen again and again, certain mistakes

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Speaker 1: being made over and over again and move once, and

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Speaker 1: we can call them out. But you know, you can

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Speaker 1: have your principles. You can engage, and you should engage

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Speaker 1: in the complexity and contradictions and national liberation struggles, offering

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Speaker 1: critique where needs to be, resistant reactionary, capitalist, patriarchal and

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Speaker 1: status elements when they manifest, and providing support in any

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Speaker 1: way that you are able in any way that they

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Speaker 1: request that you be. People aren't a monoliths. Think for yourself,

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Speaker 1: All power to all the people usual things. That's it

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Speaker 1: for me, and support me on peatre dot com slash

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Speaker 1: Saint Drew and follow me on YouTube at andrewism. This

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Speaker 1: has been here with myself and Mia be South.

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Speaker 5: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

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Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 5: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

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Speaker 5: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening