1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:21,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I may have Higgins and this is Solvable Interviews 2 00:00:21,676 --> 00:00:24,996 Speaker 1: with the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the 3 00:00:24,996 --> 00:00:28,836 Speaker 1: world's biggest problems. My name is Roy Steiner. I'm the 4 00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:32,356 Speaker 1: managing director of the Food Initiative at the Rockefeller Foundation, 5 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: and my solvable is to reduce by fifty percent diet 6 00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:41,476 Speaker 1: related diseases in our generation. Okay, so this is a 7 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: big one, but it wouldn't be solvable if it wasn't. 8 00:00:44,796 --> 00:00:48,036 Speaker 1: When researching this episode, I was blown away to learn 9 00:00:48,116 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: that today we're in a global epidemic of malnutrition. Of course, 10 00:00:53,116 --> 00:00:55,196 Speaker 1: I know that in some parts of the world, you know, 11 00:00:55,316 --> 00:01:00,196 Speaker 1: there's a hunger problem, but a global malnutrition epidemic. It 12 00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:05,316 Speaker 1: turns out that that means both over and undernutrition. In 13 00:01:05,356 --> 00:01:08,476 Speaker 1: the past thirty years, obesity rates have doubled in adults 14 00:01:08,476 --> 00:01:14,356 Speaker 1: and triple children. The major nutritional issue used to be undernourishment. 15 00:01:15,036 --> 00:01:18,316 Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, thirty five percent of the world's 16 00:01:18,356 --> 00:01:23,236 Speaker 1: population were undernourished. Now that's twelve percent, and most of 17 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:28,236 Speaker 1: the countries affected are experiencing conflict or war. So I 18 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:32,116 Speaker 1: guess that shows that nutrition is linked to many other problems, 19 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 1: like not just poverty, and again the contrasts are crazy. 20 00:01:37,036 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 1: While children in the developed world are increasingly at risk 21 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:44,596 Speaker 1: of obesity, one out of six children that's roughly one 22 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 1: hundred million children in developing countries is underweight. Diet contributes 23 00:01:51,396 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 1: to almost seven hundred thousand deaths each year here in 24 00:01:55,036 --> 00:01:58,876 Speaker 1: the US from things like heart disease, cancer, and type 25 00:01:58,876 --> 00:02:02,996 Speaker 1: two diabetes. In fact, according to the World Health Organization, 26 00:02:03,516 --> 00:02:07,276 Speaker 1: diet quality is now the leading contributing factor of death 27 00:02:07,356 --> 00:02:14,076 Speaker 1: and disability worldwide. It's actually a super helpful and extremely 28 00:02:14,156 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 1: informative discussion between Jacob Weisberg and Roy Steiner. Roy's work 29 00:02:19,836 --> 00:02:23,396 Speaker 1: heading up the Food Initiative at the Rockefeller Foundation is 30 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:27,796 Speaker 1: all about creating access to nourishing food for millions of 31 00:02:27,876 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 1: people in the US and around the world, and supporting 32 00:02:31,996 --> 00:02:36,916 Speaker 1: scientific advances in human nutrition and sustainable food production. This 33 00:02:37,036 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 1: is relevant to every one of us, and I think 34 00:02:40,116 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: you'll enjoy it. It's ultimately very positive and doable, Roy, 35 00:02:46,316 --> 00:02:50,276 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, unsolvable. Thanks nice to be here. 36 00:02:50,476 --> 00:02:54,756 Speaker 1: So what is the problem. In a nutshell, we currently 37 00:02:54,756 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 1: have a food system that does not result in good 38 00:02:59,756 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 1: health for a lot of people, and it also damages 39 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:06,996 Speaker 1: the environment. We've optimized our food system for two things, 40 00:03:07,156 --> 00:03:10,396 Speaker 1: production of calories and profit. We have not optimized it 41 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:15,236 Speaker 1: for nutrition, health, environment, culture, or community. And the food 42 00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:17,876 Speaker 1: system needs to do all of those things. So we 43 00:03:17,916 --> 00:03:21,156 Speaker 1: need to restructure, revolutionize a system so that it really 44 00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:25,436 Speaker 1: does nourish people with the foods they really need. My 45 00:03:25,556 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 1: solvable is that we can reduce diet related diseases by 46 00:03:31,316 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 1: fifty percent in our lifetime. Ro What is it about 47 00:03:36,516 --> 00:03:39,516 Speaker 1: this problem that makes you want to calcole it? This 48 00:03:39,556 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 1: problem affects billions of people, and it is actually getting 49 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 1: worse rather than getting better. It's one of those trends 50 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 1: that if we don't address inflict, untold suffering and cost 51 00:03:53,516 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: on society. So I want to start with a phrase 52 00:03:56,676 --> 00:04:01,756 Speaker 1: you use, diet related diseases. What are diet related diseases? 53 00:04:02,676 --> 00:04:05,076 Speaker 1: So we're starting to understand that there is a whole 54 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 1: range of diseases diabetes, cardiovastual disease, some cancers that are 55 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:15,636 Speaker 1: result of not eating what scientists called protective diets. We 56 00:04:15,716 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: don't eat enough fruits, vegetables, fish, legume, seeds. These things 57 00:04:21,276 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 1: actually act in the body to protect us from these 58 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:29,996 Speaker 1: range of diseases, and they do that working through the microbiome, 59 00:04:30,436 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 1: through regulatory functions, through improving cellular function. And we're just 60 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 1: starting to fully understand how important consumption of these foods are. 61 00:04:41,476 --> 00:04:44,956 Speaker 1: And it's the under consumption of these foods that actually 62 00:04:44,996 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 1: increase your risk more than anything else. Maybe a little glib, 63 00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:52,556 Speaker 1: but people sometimes say, we're moving from the problems of 64 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:56,396 Speaker 1: not enough food to overabundance of food. Do you see 65 00:04:56,396 --> 00:05:01,156 Speaker 1: it that way? We're moving to the problem of overabundance 66 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 1: of nutrient poor food. We have a lot of ultraprocessed food, 67 00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:09,276 Speaker 1: but that is not what human beings thrive on. We 68 00:05:09,316 --> 00:05:12,836 Speaker 1: are not producing or consuming enough of these protective foods. 69 00:05:13,156 --> 00:05:16,596 Speaker 1: In fact, that most ten percent of Americans and Ethiopians 70 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:19,356 Speaker 1: eat the optical amount of fruits and vegetables, for example. 71 00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 1: They may not eat the same things they should eat, 72 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:26,036 Speaker 1: but surely they eat different things they shouldn't eat. Yes, 73 00:05:26,156 --> 00:05:28,036 Speaker 1: that is correct. I mean I have to think the 74 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 1: problem is just very, very different in the United States 75 00:05:31,236 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 1: and then in other developed countries, and then in the 76 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,996 Speaker 1: developing world. Yes, I mean there's still lots of places 77 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:40,316 Speaker 1: in the world where people aren't getting enough food, like 78 00:05:40,356 --> 00:05:44,636 Speaker 1: we have under nutrition, not enough calories, but We are 79 00:05:44,676 --> 00:05:48,156 Speaker 1: increasingly finding that people have enough calories, but they don't 80 00:05:48,156 --> 00:05:52,196 Speaker 1: have enough nutrition. And that is actually a universal problem. 81 00:05:52,276 --> 00:05:55,556 Speaker 1: That's not just in the United States or in Africa, 82 00:05:55,636 --> 00:05:58,436 Speaker 1: or in China or India. It's everywhere, and where they 83 00:05:58,436 --> 00:06:02,716 Speaker 1: don't get enough calories, that's increasingly a political problem, right, 84 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:05,996 Speaker 1: It's absolutely food isn't getting to them because of civil 85 00:06:06,036 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 1: war or bad government or some sort of crisis that 86 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:14,836 Speaker 1: the system can't deal with. Yeah. Absolutely, almost every famine 87 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:18,836 Speaker 1: is the result of poor governments or conflict. You make 88 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: this a little more vivid for us, I mean, what 89 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:25,116 Speaker 1: are the kinds of consequences. I know, diabetes obviously in 90 00:06:25,156 --> 00:06:28,276 Speaker 1: this country, and their range of diseases that come from 91 00:06:28,276 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 1: not having the protective diet you're talking about, But what 92 00:06:31,836 --> 00:06:34,356 Speaker 1: does this look like to someone like you who's trying 93 00:06:34,396 --> 00:06:36,996 Speaker 1: to get a global perspective on it. Well, one of 94 00:06:37,036 --> 00:06:40,716 Speaker 1: the most extraordinary trends you see in the world, in 95 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:43,756 Speaker 1: the United States and everywhere else is this dramatic rise 96 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 1: in diabetes and pre diabetes. Right now, we have four 97 00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 1: hundred million people in the world with diabetes. That's going 98 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:53,796 Speaker 1: to grow to six hundred million in ten to twenty years. 99 00:06:53,836 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: Fifty percent of American children, if the trend continues, will 100 00:06:57,836 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: suffer from diabetes in their lifetime. And when you think 101 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:05,356 Speaker 1: about this trend, which you know right now, India has 102 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:08,596 Speaker 1: seventy million people with diabetes, China is on track it 103 00:07:08,636 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 1: has even more, and the consequences are incredibly severe. During 104 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: the entire Irana Rock War there is a thousand and 105 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:20,116 Speaker 1: seven hundred amputations, which is just terrible for the soldiers. 106 00:07:20,756 --> 00:07:23,796 Speaker 1: But just last year alone, there were eighty three thousand 107 00:07:23,876 --> 00:07:27,676 Speaker 1: amputations due to diabetes in the United States, and we're 108 00:07:27,676 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: going to increasingly see that all over the world, and 109 00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:34,796 Speaker 1: the suffering and pain and cost of that is really 110 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:39,076 Speaker 1: going to be a huge burden on healthcare systems. Some 111 00:07:39,116 --> 00:07:41,876 Speaker 1: people have said that our food system right now is 112 00:07:41,956 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 1: bankrupting our healthcare system. You see it as inevitable that 113 00:07:46,836 --> 00:07:50,796 Speaker 1: developing countries follow this path in the United States towards 114 00:07:50,876 --> 00:07:56,676 Speaker 1: over consumption of overly processed foods that are cheap, partly 115 00:07:56,716 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 1: because of governmental subsidies. Right now, that is the trend. 116 00:08:00,796 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 1: We're hoping that we can change that trend by a 117 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:09,076 Speaker 1: number of interventions, including education, but changing the supply chain, 118 00:08:09,516 --> 00:08:13,156 Speaker 1: and as you said, subsidies really do influence the food 119 00:08:13,156 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: system in a very dramatic way. Of the agricultural subsidies 120 00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:20,716 Speaker 1: in the United States go to six crops, eighty five 121 00:08:20,756 --> 00:08:24,076 Speaker 1: percent of research goes to those same six crops, So 122 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 1: we're ignoring actually the foods that make us really healthy, 123 00:08:27,556 --> 00:08:31,716 Speaker 1: that protect us, and we need to rebalance that. You're 124 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:36,156 Speaker 1: solvable is to reduce diet related diseases by half over 125 00:08:36,236 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: a generation. What has to happen for that to be possible? 126 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:43,116 Speaker 1: What diseases get reduced and how can you see that happening. 127 00:08:43,516 --> 00:08:46,756 Speaker 1: The most important thing is that we actually start eating 128 00:08:47,036 --> 00:08:53,636 Speaker 1: optimal levels of these protective foods fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, lagoons, fish, etc. 129 00:08:54,196 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 1: The nutritional science is showing that when you do eat 130 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:03,436 Speaker 1: those levels of optimal foods, we see dramatic reductions in 131 00:09:03,556 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 1: a range of these diseases. The most quickest way the 132 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 1: sea impact is actually in diabetes pre diabetes, but we 133 00:09:10,556 --> 00:09:13,876 Speaker 1: think that that has impact on cardiovastral disease and multiple 134 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 1: other diseases which happen over a long period of time. 135 00:09:17,116 --> 00:09:21,556 Speaker 1: These are chronic, noncommunical diseases. People in this country, and 136 00:09:21,636 --> 00:09:23,596 Speaker 1: I don't think they're alone or they're diet is a 137 00:09:23,636 --> 00:09:27,116 Speaker 1: very personal thing. They don't necessarily like people on the outside, 138 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: whether they're medical experts or policy experts, or people in 139 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:34,556 Speaker 1: the media telling them that they eat too much, that 140 00:09:34,636 --> 00:09:37,556 Speaker 1: they eat badly, that they're too heavy. This is a 141 00:09:37,636 --> 00:09:42,116 Speaker 1: cultural issue, not not just a dietary one. Right. Absolutely, 142 00:09:42,596 --> 00:09:45,076 Speaker 1: the last thing I want to be in my family 143 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:48,076 Speaker 1: is the food police. You know, people take their diets 144 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:51,156 Speaker 1: very personally. No one likes to be told what to eat. 145 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:53,276 Speaker 1: And the fact is we have a lot of information. 146 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:56,716 Speaker 1: It's an information, isn't the problem. I mean, all of 147 00:09:56,716 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 1: our mothers told us to eat our foods and vegetables. 148 00:09:59,236 --> 00:10:01,236 Speaker 1: So it's got to be a lot more than that. 149 00:10:01,316 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 1: And it starts with changing, for example, the food environment. 150 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:09,156 Speaker 1: We have surrounded ourselves with really bad food, food that 151 00:10:09,276 --> 00:10:12,556 Speaker 1: increases our risk. You just think about the kinds of 152 00:10:12,676 --> 00:10:16,756 Speaker 1: lunches that are often served in workplaces and in schools. 153 00:10:16,916 --> 00:10:20,556 Speaker 1: They're just ultra process and there isn't choice to eat 154 00:10:20,676 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: in healthy ways, or the healthy food is not necessarily 155 00:10:25,476 --> 00:10:29,956 Speaker 1: tasty or cost effective, and so we have to actually, 156 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 1: you know, people are going to make choices based on taste, 157 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 1: on convenience, and on cost. And if we can't make 158 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:42,236 Speaker 1: healthy food, protective foods, tasty, convenient, and lower cost. We're 159 00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 1: not going to be able to do the shift, but 160 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 1: we can do all of those things. An economist looks 161 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:50,196 Speaker 1: at this and says, well, this is an easy problem. 162 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:54,476 Speaker 1: Instead of subsidizing the unhealthy food, tax the unhealthy food 163 00:10:54,476 --> 00:10:57,076 Speaker 1: and subsidize the healthy food. I mean, isn't that the 164 00:10:57,116 --> 00:10:59,876 Speaker 1: core of it. Well, I think that would be helpful, 165 00:11:00,156 --> 00:11:02,476 Speaker 1: but that's not going to solve the entire problem. Yes, 166 00:11:02,676 --> 00:11:07,676 Speaker 1: taxing sugar, for example, and subsidizing the healthier food will 167 00:11:07,716 --> 00:11:09,796 Speaker 1: definitely be part of the way. You have to bring 168 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 1: people along. We have to get the chefs of the 169 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 1: world to really help us make this shift, and they're 170 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 1: starting to do that. There's a real movement in the 171 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 1: food industry to create healthier, tasteier food, and you really 172 00:11:23,756 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: see that, certainly at expensive restaurants in New York or 173 00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: Brooklyn or San Francisco. But the problem isn't people who 174 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:36,516 Speaker 1: have the means to eat healthy. They probably are eating healthier, right. Yes, 175 00:11:36,596 --> 00:11:40,316 Speaker 1: the biggest burden, as so many things in society, falls 176 00:11:40,436 --> 00:11:44,196 Speaker 1: on the poor and the vulnerable, who suffer from higher 177 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:47,756 Speaker 1: levels of these dyed related diseases and to a large 178 00:11:47,756 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 1: extent is because they don't have access to it. There 179 00:11:50,996 --> 00:11:55,156 Speaker 1: are cultural issues, and it does cost more. We talk 180 00:11:55,236 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 1: about the Green Revolution, which the Rockfeller Foundation was intimately 181 00:11:59,316 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 1: involved in, as a kind of lightning strike, a sea 182 00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:08,276 Speaker 1: change that change the problem of malnutrition fundamentally. Can you 183 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: imagine something comparable that has a transformative effect on global diets? Absolutely? Well, 184 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:18,436 Speaker 1: you know, the Green Revolution took twenty five years, so 185 00:12:18,676 --> 00:12:22,156 Speaker 1: changing the food systems is a long term game. But 186 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 1: I think we have to. It's not a question whether 187 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:28,076 Speaker 1: we want to or should. If we don't do that, 188 00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:31,516 Speaker 1: our healthcare costs are going to get even more exorbitant 189 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,676 Speaker 1: than they are. And the food system is currently the 190 00:12:34,796 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 1: largest emitter of global warming gases, and so we have 191 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:41,796 Speaker 1: to create a food system that's both more nourishing and 192 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: environmentally sustainable. It is something that has to happen if 193 00:12:46,396 --> 00:12:49,356 Speaker 1: we're going to have the future we would desire. You 194 00:12:49,396 --> 00:12:54,676 Speaker 1: mentioned Ethiopia as a country that's tragically gone from classical 195 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 1: malnutrition to in a way more modern kind of malnutrition. 196 00:12:59,476 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 1: They have solved our ended process of solving the issue 197 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: of undernutrition, and it's not all the way there, but 198 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:08,676 Speaker 1: you know, in the last five years, Ethiopia has made 199 00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: men the strides, so that a country that once was 200 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:16,636 Speaker 1: best known for images of starving children is actually exporting 201 00:13:16,716 --> 00:13:20,556 Speaker 1: some commodities. But they, like almost every other country in 202 00:13:20,596 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 1: the world, have this trend towards you know, lots of 203 00:13:24,396 --> 00:13:28,436 Speaker 1: carbohydrates and not enough of these protective foods. We're in 204 00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 1: the developing world, ROYD. You see positive signs are their 205 00:13:32,076 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 1: places where government policy or cultural changes are leading to 206 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:41,436 Speaker 1: improvement in the quality of diet. You see pockets of it. 207 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 1: You know, the countries that stand out for really making 208 00:13:44,996 --> 00:13:49,756 Speaker 1: good dietary choices are places like Chili and Canada and 209 00:13:49,796 --> 00:13:55,956 Speaker 1: the Scandinavian But you'll see increasing emphasis in for example, 210 00:13:56,076 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 1: Rwanda or Ethiopia on supply chains of these nutritious foods. 211 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 1: You're talking about getting fresh fruits and vegetables and grains 212 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:08,116 Speaker 1: and nuts and seeds to market. I mean a lot 213 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 1: of the problem is that many of these foods are 214 00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:13,876 Speaker 1: very perishable, unlike foods that get highly processed and have 215 00:14:14,076 --> 00:14:17,076 Speaker 1: our shelf stable. We think, for example, a place like 216 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:21,236 Speaker 1: African countries, they are suffering from supply chains that are 217 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:25,956 Speaker 1: pretty inefficient and you will lose often fifty percent of 218 00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: your crop because of poor transport or spoilage, and matching 219 00:14:30,396 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 1: supply and demand in that environment is really important. But 220 00:14:33,396 --> 00:14:35,356 Speaker 1: we have a lot of the tools that are necessary. 221 00:14:35,716 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 1: A lot of this is data, a lot of these 222 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 1: are these new technologies for storage and processing and drying. 223 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 1: The solar technology is revolutionizing every aspect of the economies 224 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:49,916 Speaker 1: in those countries, and we think that that can change 225 00:14:49,956 --> 00:14:53,836 Speaker 1: the way agricultural supply chains operate. So what does that 226 00:14:53,876 --> 00:14:58,676 Speaker 1: look like in Rwanda? Say we could have solar powered 227 00:14:58,916 --> 00:15:03,556 Speaker 1: processing and drying so that instead of tomatoes rotting, you 228 00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:06,716 Speaker 1: can dry them and that makes them much more shelf 229 00:15:06,756 --> 00:15:10,556 Speaker 1: stable for a long time. Or fruits like mangoes and 230 00:15:10,836 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 1: passion food, etc. Also process in a way that allows 231 00:15:14,476 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 1: them to last longer. There's some very interesting solar powered 232 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:22,756 Speaker 1: cooling solutions, for example, that create ice and then you 233 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:26,356 Speaker 1: can keep things a lot longer in those contexts, and 234 00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:29,916 Speaker 1: those were just not cost effective vibe or even or 235 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:33,396 Speaker 1: ten years ago, but they're becoming because of technology. Because 236 00:15:33,436 --> 00:15:37,796 Speaker 1: of innovation, those things are now possible. Right. There's the macro, 237 00:15:37,916 --> 00:15:40,436 Speaker 1: which we've been talking about, and then there's the micro, 238 00:15:40,556 --> 00:15:44,036 Speaker 1: which is people's behavior and people's habits. And I have 239 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 1: to ask you, as someone who's been reckoning with this issue, 240 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: what kind of evolution has happened in your own diet, 241 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:54,036 Speaker 1: your own family. How have you tried to move towards 242 00:15:54,076 --> 00:15:57,676 Speaker 1: a more protective diet at the Steiner home. Well, that's 243 00:15:57,716 --> 00:16:00,556 Speaker 1: why I say, no one really likes being told what 244 00:16:00,676 --> 00:16:05,036 Speaker 1: to eat. I think you have to make changes by 245 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:09,756 Speaker 1: yourself and by educating others, and over time that starts 246 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 1: to influence the family. My son and wife still really 247 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:17,916 Speaker 1: love bacon, and that's not a protective food, but they 248 00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 1: eat very high quantities of fruits and vegetables. And at 249 00:16:22,156 --> 00:16:24,076 Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's really as long as 250 00:16:24,076 --> 00:16:26,716 Speaker 1: you're consuming enough of these protective foods, you can eat 251 00:16:26,756 --> 00:16:30,036 Speaker 1: your other favorite foods. It's really a matter of balance. 252 00:16:30,476 --> 00:16:34,236 Speaker 1: And I think we will gradually as we develop taste 253 00:16:34,476 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 1: and we get more comfortable, we're going to see these shifts. 254 00:16:38,196 --> 00:16:40,996 Speaker 1: And you're already seeing them in the new generation. Right 255 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 1: there's this incredible shift in demand for healthier food in 256 00:16:45,356 --> 00:16:48,796 Speaker 1: the millennial generation. I'm having a vision of Roy's plate 257 00:16:48,796 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 1: at dinner, heaped high with keenoa and peas and broccoli, 258 00:16:53,476 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 1: the other plates at the table having different different proportions 259 00:16:56,996 --> 00:16:59,716 Speaker 1: of things that people might be more excited to eat. Well, actually, 260 00:16:59,756 --> 00:17:03,356 Speaker 1: you know, the difference in meals is mostly breakfast, where 261 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:06,516 Speaker 1: I eat very differently than my family. But I think 262 00:17:06,596 --> 00:17:09,036 Speaker 1: lunch and dinner, I mean, everybody, there's so many taste 263 00:17:09,436 --> 00:17:11,596 Speaker 1: dishes that you can make. And you know, we love 264 00:17:11,716 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 1: fish and make that a regular part and we'll eat 265 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:18,836 Speaker 1: foods that are cultural all the time. I think we 266 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:21,916 Speaker 1: make a mistake when you get very rigid. We just 267 00:17:21,996 --> 00:17:25,236 Speaker 1: don't know enough to say this is the best diet 268 00:17:25,316 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 1: for this particular person. We know what to say about 269 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:32,636 Speaker 1: diets at a population level, but you and meat can 270 00:17:32,716 --> 00:17:37,196 Speaker 1: have very different optimal diets. You know, we know now 271 00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:40,836 Speaker 1: that the microbiome is very influential and on how we 272 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:45,156 Speaker 1: take in food. We have genetic factors, there's emotional factors. 273 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:49,476 Speaker 1: Food as touches on so many aspects of our reality. Well, 274 00:17:49,476 --> 00:17:53,916 Speaker 1: its behavioral changes go getting people at scale tax or thoughts. 275 00:17:53,956 --> 00:17:57,476 Speaker 1: It is probably even harder than the challenge of getting 276 00:17:57,476 --> 00:18:00,436 Speaker 1: them to evolve their diets. Well, both are really hard. 277 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 1: And that being said is you know, I don't think 278 00:18:03,836 --> 00:18:09,476 Speaker 1: we underestimate how difficult behavior change is, but we have 279 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:11,916 Speaker 1: done that in the past. I mean, just think about 280 00:18:11,996 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 1: the change in smoking or dry or safety. You know, 281 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:18,836 Speaker 1: used to be no one wore seat belts and cars 282 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:22,276 Speaker 1: are really quite unsafe. Now they're incredibly safe as a 283 00:18:22,316 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 1: result of behavior change, new regulations. Smoking is an example, 284 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:30,436 Speaker 1: where everybody used to smoke indoors in airplanes, which seems 285 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 1: unthinkable now, but that changed over the course of a 286 00:18:34,316 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 1: generation because of multiple efforts to make that change. I've 287 00:18:39,396 --> 00:18:42,676 Speaker 1: read conflicting things about obesity in the US. Is it 288 00:18:42,836 --> 00:18:46,196 Speaker 1: still getting worse or has it flattened out or started 289 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 1: to get better. It's still very very high. I mean, 290 00:18:49,436 --> 00:18:53,436 Speaker 1: the estimates are thirty to forty percent of the United 291 00:18:53,476 --> 00:18:58,676 Speaker 1: States are obese. Another third are overweight, and so you 292 00:18:58,716 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 1: really have two thirds of the population that are suffering 293 00:19:02,796 --> 00:19:06,716 Speaker 1: in some form from metabolic disease. I have not seen 294 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 1: any of the statistics that show that that's actually getting better. 295 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:13,676 Speaker 1: I do know that pre diabetes and diabetes continue to increase, 296 00:19:14,156 --> 00:19:17,156 Speaker 1: and everybody knows that our healthcare costs continue to go up. 297 00:19:17,836 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 1: The rate of increase almost has to decline because it's 298 00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:22,836 Speaker 1: at such a high plateau. As you say, such a 299 00:19:22,916 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 1: high proportion of the population is a besa overweight. What 300 00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:29,436 Speaker 1: role do doctors play in this? I mean, surely when 301 00:19:29,476 --> 00:19:32,636 Speaker 1: people are dealing with the consequences of their diet, they're 302 00:19:32,636 --> 00:19:36,156 Speaker 1: in a medical setting. That is a major area where 303 00:19:36,196 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: we can improve. It turns out that the recommended number 304 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:42,956 Speaker 1: of days that a doctor study nutrition out of four 305 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:47,356 Speaker 1: years is four days, but in fact, on average it's 306 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 1: only four hours. So essentially doctors learn almost nothing about nutrition, 307 00:19:52,556 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 1: even though we now know that sixty to seventy percent 308 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:58,716 Speaker 1: of all noncommunicable diseases are diet related. So that's a 309 00:19:58,796 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: really big miss there, and that's true for many for 310 00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: nurses and other healthcare practitioners, and so we have to 311 00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 1: change that. Nutrition needs to become a really important part 312 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:15,556 Speaker 1: of medical training, and another Rockefeller Foundation will certainly help 313 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 1: make that shift. Well, what sort of initiatives are underway 314 00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 1: where you see something positive happening in the way doctors 315 00:20:22,556 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 1: or healthcare professionals are trained. There is a movement among 316 00:20:25,956 --> 00:20:30,396 Speaker 1: doctors who just recognizes that reality to increase the amount 317 00:20:30,396 --> 00:20:34,636 Speaker 1: of training and focus on this. The other really interesting 318 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:38,516 Speaker 1: experiment that's being done is in what are called fresh 319 00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:44,236 Speaker 1: food pharmacy prescriptions. So instead of writing a drug prescription, 320 00:20:44,436 --> 00:20:47,196 Speaker 1: there are some hospitals and doctors that are experimenting with 321 00:20:47,356 --> 00:20:51,876 Speaker 1: writing prescriptions for fruits and vegetables and the results are astounding. 322 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:55,196 Speaker 1: So there's this one study the Geisinger Health did where 323 00:20:55,236 --> 00:21:00,916 Speaker 1: they took about one hundred poorly managed diabetes patients and 324 00:21:01,036 --> 00:21:03,836 Speaker 1: they put them on a fresh fruit prescription ten meals 325 00:21:03,836 --> 00:21:06,876 Speaker 1: a week over the course of the year. The cost 326 00:21:06,916 --> 00:21:10,236 Speaker 1: of that program was about two thousand and five hundred 327 00:21:10,236 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 1: dollars around per person, but they saved fifty to two 328 00:21:14,716 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars per person because it reduced costs and 329 00:21:18,356 --> 00:21:21,156 Speaker 1: the health outcomes were far better than any known drug 330 00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:25,156 Speaker 1: on the market. We need to enable doctors to prescribe 331 00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:30,276 Speaker 1: nourishing good food because it's increasingly the right thing to 332 00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 1: do in a better way than our farm of focused 333 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: a medical system. Thinking about policy in this country, we 334 00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:41,076 Speaker 1: have a Department of Agriculture which administer as a lot 335 00:21:41,116 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: of the subsidies and of course runs a lot of 336 00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:45,756 Speaker 1: health programs and other things, but we don't have a 337 00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: kind of organ of food policy driving this change that 338 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:53,436 Speaker 1: has a seat at the cabinet table, for instance. Do 339 00:21:53,436 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 1: you think that would help? Is that possible? Well, anything 340 00:21:56,516 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: that raises the issue of food and nutrition in government 341 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 1: I think would be very helpful. I mean, there's some 342 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 1: people who have proposed something like a National Institute of Nutrition, 343 00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: which would be similar to the natural when the stud 344 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:13,916 Speaker 1: of cancer, etc. And I think something like that, where 345 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 1: we have credible institutions that really start funding nutritional research 346 00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: at the levels it should and can act with a 347 00:22:23,396 --> 00:22:26,396 Speaker 1: credible voice, is really important. Right now. There's so much 348 00:22:26,436 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 1: confusing information, in some cases very purposefully confusing. People want 349 00:22:31,916 --> 00:22:35,716 Speaker 1: to confuse the public. We need institutions that people can 350 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:38,796 Speaker 1: trust and say this is what we know about what's 351 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:42,196 Speaker 1: healthy for you and what's not. I think, yeah, increased 352 00:22:42,276 --> 00:22:44,596 Speaker 1: effort in that area it could be very very helpful, 353 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:48,156 Speaker 1: right I wonder if you can break your takeaways out 354 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 1: into two categories, what people should think about doing in 355 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:54,676 Speaker 1: relation to their own diets, and then what they should 356 00:22:54,756 --> 00:22:58,756 Speaker 1: think about trying to do about this problem nationally and globally. 357 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,556 Speaker 1: I think people can start thinking as much as possible 358 00:23:02,596 --> 00:23:06,956 Speaker 1: about consuming adequate quantities of these foods that are protective. 359 00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 1: It's not so much around on not eating the other stuff. 360 00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 1: It's much more positive to think, like how do I 361 00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 1: eat more of fruits and vegetables and nuts and in 362 00:23:16,396 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: a way that satisfies your taste and creates joy. I 363 00:23:20,156 --> 00:23:23,916 Speaker 1: think we need to demand better food for children and 364 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:27,596 Speaker 1: at our workplaces, and that is something parents everywhere can 365 00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 1: do to help shift institutions so that they are procuring 366 00:23:31,916 --> 00:23:36,636 Speaker 1: food that's more nourishing and sustainable. I think removing junk 367 00:23:36,676 --> 00:23:40,436 Speaker 1: food from shop checkouts. We've designed our food environment so 368 00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: it's almost impossible to eat really well, and we're constantly 369 00:23:44,476 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: triggering the purchase and consumption of foods that are just 370 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: not good for us in large quantities. Then finally, I mean, 371 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:53,916 Speaker 1: actually look at your plate that you're eating. It should 372 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:57,396 Speaker 1: be at least half fruits and vegetables, about a quarter 373 00:23:57,676 --> 00:24:01,076 Speaker 1: whole grains and other things, and then a small slice 374 00:24:01,116 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 1: of protein. We're just not eating enough of these other 375 00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:08,236 Speaker 1: whole foods that are protective. And what can people do 376 00:24:08,276 --> 00:24:13,196 Speaker 1: about the problem globally? If anything, you affect the globe 377 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:18,756 Speaker 1: by your individual action. When we are industrialized countries, we 378 00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:23,276 Speaker 1: need to be encouraging the production and consumption of protective 379 00:24:23,316 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 1: foods when we're doing international development work, for example, So Roy, 380 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 1: the first question we ask everybody to get them warmed 381 00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:32,196 Speaker 1: up is what did you have for breakfast today? I 382 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: had some fruits and nuts. I really like pecans, apricots, 383 00:24:36,916 --> 00:24:39,836 Speaker 1: and some yogurt. And in your case, I'm gonna ask, 384 00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: what are you gonna have for lunch? Oh? I always 385 00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:45,676 Speaker 1: have vegetables and salad for lunch, and then I'll splurage 386 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:48,476 Speaker 1: for dinner. Do you eat meat? I consider myself a 387 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:51,796 Speaker 1: flexitarian or I have a plant forward diet where I 388 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:54,876 Speaker 1: try to eat as many plants as possible. But I 389 00:24:54,916 --> 00:24:58,876 Speaker 1: always make multiple exceptions. So the first exception is I 390 00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:01,556 Speaker 1: will eat anything anybody cooks for me with love. You know, 391 00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:03,796 Speaker 1: when I go to somebody's house, I will not say 392 00:25:04,036 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 1: I have a dietary restriction because I don't really have 393 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:08,996 Speaker 1: a health issue. And then the second is for the 394 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 1: exceptionally delicious. There's a specific food that my mother used 395 00:25:12,876 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 1: to always make called Gorma sebzi. It's this incredible lamb stew. 396 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:19,396 Speaker 1: If I ever get a chance to eat that gorma 397 00:25:19,476 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: subsy that I'm going to eat that gorma subsans. Food 398 00:25:22,276 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: is about joy and about connection. There's a spiritual dimension 399 00:25:25,676 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 1: to food, so it's not simply about the nutrition. It's 400 00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:33,276 Speaker 1: about all of these other things. That makes us human. 401 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:39,516 Speaker 1: So the roystin or food rules are plant forward, don't 402 00:25:39,516 --> 00:25:42,916 Speaker 1: be a pain in the ass for other people, enjoy food, 403 00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 1: don't be too rigid. Yes, I think that's a good 404 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:51,116 Speaker 1: set of rules. How do we maximize joy and health? 405 00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:57,916 Speaker 1: I just loved that conversation. You know, Roy has multiple 406 00:25:57,996 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 1: degrees and a PhD in agricultural engineering and all arrestivos, 407 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:05,676 Speaker 1: and he's telling us that to save our own health 408 00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:09,396 Speaker 1: and the planets, we need to maximize joy when it 409 00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:13,876 Speaker 1: comes to eating. I really appreciate this holistic take on food. 410 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:18,356 Speaker 1: The way we eat today is not sustainable. Agriculture accounts 411 00:26:18,356 --> 00:26:21,396 Speaker 1: for seventy percent of all freshwater use, it takes up 412 00:26:21,556 --> 00:26:25,916 Speaker 1: roughly half of the planet's vegetated land, and it's responsible 413 00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:29,916 Speaker 1: for almost a quarter of all global greenhouse gas emissions. 414 00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:32,916 Speaker 1: That's more than every car and ship and train and 415 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: plane on Earth combined. So for our own sakes, let's 416 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 1: shine a light for Roy and his work at the 417 00:26:39,596 --> 00:26:46,836 Speaker 1: Food Initiative. Plant Forward Baby Solvable is a collaboration between 418 00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:50,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and the Rockefella Foundation, with production by Chalk 419 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:55,796 Speaker 1: and Blade. Pushkin's executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Engineering by 420 00:26:55,876 --> 00:27:00,396 Speaker 1: Jason Gambrell and the fine Folks at GSI Studios. Original 421 00:27:00,516 --> 00:27:04,636 Speaker 1: music composed by Pascal Wise. Special thanks to Maggie Taylor, 422 00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Julia Barton, Carlie Mgniori, share Vincent, Jacob Weisberg, 423 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 1: and Malcolm Gladwell. You can learn more about solving today's 424 00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:19,236 Speaker 1: biggest problems at Rockefeller Foundation dot org slash solvable. I'm 425 00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:21,356 Speaker 1: Mave Higgins. Now go solve it.