1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to dick It app and here, a podcast about 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 2: things falling apart and putting it back together again. I'm 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: Mia Wong, I'm with Garrison, and it is my singular 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: honor and pleasure to introduce our guest, doctor Julia Serrano. 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: She is the author of many books, including Excluded, Making 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 2: Feminists and queer Movements More Inclusive, Sex Stop, How Society 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: Sexualizes Us and how we can fight back, Outspoken, a 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: Decade of transgender activism and Transfeminism, and most famously, Whipping Girl, 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: a new edition of which is coming out in March. 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: Doctor Serrano, Welcome to the show. 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 13 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: I'm really really I'm really happy you can join us. 14 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 2: So okay. Whipping Girl, I think is really the one 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: of quietly the most influential books of the twenty first century, 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: to the extent that in kind of classic trans woman fashion, 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: I don't think I don't think people realized that the 18 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: ideas that it introduced have an origin. So for people 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: who haven't read the book, and you should, this book 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: is great. I guarantee you have seen its influence. If 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: you've ever heard someone like who's not trans referred to 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: as sis, like, that's that's from this book. The concept 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: of misgendering is also from this book. The word trans 24 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: misogyny like also from this book. And this I think 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: gets at something from the twenty fifteen second edition preface 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 2: that you wrote, which is something I've been wondering about, 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: is what is it like to sort of experience writing 28 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: a book and have it just like ripple across society 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: like this. 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's uh. 31 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 4: I was very much hoping, and you know, as I 32 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 4: was writing it, I was hoping that I thought that 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 4: it would resonate with a lot of trans female and 34 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 4: transfeminine people, and I hope trans communities more generally, and 35 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 4: the book. This is something that a lot of times 36 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 4: people who pick up the book now, like the twenty 37 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 4: twenties don't necessarily realize, is that nobody was reading anything 38 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 4: about trans people outside of feminists and LGBTQ plus communities, 39 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 4: and so I was basically just speaking to those groups, 40 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 4: and I thought it would resonate with some people. But yeah, 41 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 4: definitely it kind of went out into the world and 42 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 4: did a bunch of stuff that I wasn't necessarily expecting. 43 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 4: And I'm very glad that the book has kind of 44 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 4: touched a lot of people's lives and changed, you know, 45 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 4: kind of societal understanding and quote unquote discourses about trans people. 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 5: So yeah, it must be kind of bizarre, like being 47 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 5: twenty years ago writing about you know, caniche term like 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 5: sis and now the richest man in the world thinks 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 5: it's like the most evil word. 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's quite bizarre, and I do want to definitely 51 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 4: kind of clear this up, but I kind of make 52 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 4: this clear in the preface. So I didn't invet like 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 4: sis versus trans like a that's like a prefix that 54 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 4: has existed a long time. And I've since seen other 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 4: people like point out, oh, this person was using it 56 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety something, or some German writer like coined 57 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 4: cis vestism or something like back a million years ago. 58 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 3: So what I will say is that when I when 59 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 3: I put out the book, I was. 60 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 4: Inspired by Emi Koyama, who was and is an awesome 61 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 4: activist intersex activists who's written a lot of really influential 62 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 4: trans related essays over the years, And it was from 63 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 4: her blog post that was the first time I saw 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 4: sis and trans and the idea of cis sexism. And 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 4: at the time it was while I was writing the book, 66 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: and it really I was like, oh my god, this 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: is kind of the overall idea. I was talking about 68 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 4: all these different facets of basically double standards between trans 69 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 4: and non trans people, and so I kind of grabbed 70 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 4: on to it, and I was really worried about it 71 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 4: actually because nobody, almost nobody was using those terms. It 72 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 4: was very niche at the time, and so the book 73 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 4: popularized that language. And so now it is kind of 74 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 4: funny every once in a while seeing yes overreactions by 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 4: SIS people to the idea of of SIS being a 76 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 4: slur or whatever. So yeah, and so yeah, so that's 77 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 4: definitely something that is kind of is the one thing 78 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 4: I one thing I did coin in the book that 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 4: has kind of also taken a life on its own 80 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 4: is trans misogyny. So that is something that kind of 81 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 4: originated with this book and particularly a chap book that 82 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 4: I wrote in two thousand and five that some of those. 83 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: Essays became chapters of the book. 84 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 4: And yeah, and so there are other ideas that kind 85 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 4: of are out there, Like I think it was one 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 4: of the first. I think it was the first book 87 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 4: to talk about like the idea of SIS privilege. I 88 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 4: misgendering is an idea was out there, but I kind 89 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 4: of dove into it a little bit deeper. So yeah, 90 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 4: so they're definitely things I was doing at the time 91 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: that I didn't know whether they'd be to abstract or 92 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 4: how they'd be taken up, and so, yes, it's been 93 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 4: very interesting. 94 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to talk about misgendering a bit because 95 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: I think it's become this word that just means not 96 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: saying someone's pronouns correctly, and I think that's, at the 97 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: very best, like an incredibly reductionist and simplified version of 98 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 2: the analysis that you were presenting. So I guess I 99 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: have two questions here. One can you briefly sort of 100 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: talk about what you were trying to get at when 101 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: you sort of did your analysis of the process of gendering? 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: And two, what do you think about the way that 103 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: it's kind of become flattened into this I don't know, 104 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: kind of weirdly narrow thing in modern discourse. 105 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 4: Sure, and a lot of the misgendering definitely dovetails with 106 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 4: the idea of passing, and a lot of my kind 107 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 4: of diving into it in a particular way I came 108 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 4: from critiques that I had other trans people had as well, 109 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 4: but I kind of you know, put them together in 110 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 4: a particularly in the Dismantling I think it's dismantling Sexual 111 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 4: Privileged chapter where I kind of go through all these 112 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 4: steps that lead to miss gendering, because I think people 113 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 4: talk about trans people passing and also the people will 114 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 4: talk about other marginalized groups passing is whatever dominant majority group. 115 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 4: The term obviously had long been used with regards to 116 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 4: people of color passing as white and in kind of 117 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 4: white racist you know, us and other societies. So it's 118 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 4: an old term, and a big problem with it is 119 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 4: that it makes it sound like we're doing something active, 120 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: that trans people are actively trying to deceive other people, 121 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 4: with huge scare quotes around the word deceive. And I 122 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 4: really wanted to highlight to people that actually all of 123 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 4: us very unconsciously and very compulsively gender every single person 124 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 4: we meet, or at least that's how we're socialized to be, 125 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 4: and you know, you can work towards getting, you know, 126 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 4: overcoming that, but I wanted to really highlight the fact 127 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 4: that we see people, we automatically gender them, and that 128 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 4: puts people who do not quite who your presumptions are 129 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 4: wrong about it puts us in difficult situations. 130 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: It's a double bind. 131 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: Where do you reveal what you supposedly really are or 132 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 4: do you just allow people to read you that way? 133 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 4: And it works out very differently, for instance, between trans 134 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 4: and say cis gay people, because when cis gay people 135 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 4: talk about passing is straight. Their passing is something that 136 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 4: they know that they are not. Whereas for a lot 137 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 4: of trans people, if people read me as a woman 138 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 4: and I understand myself to be a woman, there's it's 139 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 4: a very different dynamic because it's not like I'm not 140 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 4: hiding anything, but people are presuming what I'm really passing 141 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 4: as is I'm passing assist and people are assuming I'm 142 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 4: this gender when the trans is the thing that I 143 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 4: might need to or feel like I need to clear up, 144 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 4: or other people might put pressure on me to either 145 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 4: tell them that I'm trans or be accused of deceiving them. 146 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: So that's a little bit of kind of how I 147 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 4: was approaching it when I started working on that idea 148 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 4: and really stressing the idea of you can't understand miss 149 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 4: gendering unless you understand that we make assumptions all the time. 150 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 4: We gender people very actively, and you know, so trans 151 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 4: people are often just reacting to that and dealing with 152 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 4: that double bind. 153 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is something that I think is interestingly 154 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: discussed in the book about like kind of this this 155 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 2: issue with some of the sort of prevailing gender theories 156 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 2: which thought of which think about sort of like Naitian 157 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: gender is pure performance. But you know, and this is 158 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: I think, like the argument that you were making that 159 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: I think is really interesting is that something that I 160 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: think is is very obvious to trans people is that 161 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: so much of gender is how people perceive you and 162 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: how you know and stuff that like you don't have 163 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: any control over. It's how people sort of gender you. 164 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: It's how people like construct a gender around you in 165 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: ways that you don't really have control over. 166 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 4: M Yeah, and that was a big thing. So in 167 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 4: kind of I was writing the book in the mid 168 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: two thousands, and so the nineteen nineties is when Judith 169 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 4: Butler publishes Gender Trouble, which Butler never said all genders 170 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 4: performance are all genders drag, Yeah, but that is but 171 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 4: that those are like slogans or sound bites that other 172 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 4: people took from their book, right, and they were very 173 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 4: popular at the time. There's also there's a famous sociological 174 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: article about doing gender, and so people were very focused 175 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 4: on the way in which we create gender by doing 176 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 4: it particular ways, and a lot of the slogans within 177 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 4: trans communities were sort of like, oh, well, you know, 178 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 4: I just have to do my gender differently, like more transgressively, 179 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 4: and that will like tear down all of gender. And 180 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 4: I felt that there was you know, that is an 181 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 4: aspect of things, and most of us, whether trans or cists, 182 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 4: most of us have had the experience of maybe trying to. 183 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 3: Perform our genders in a particular way in. 184 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 4: Order to like, you know, not you know, in order 185 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 4: in order to get by in the world, in order 186 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 4: to not be harassed by other people. 187 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: So we've all had that experience. 188 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 4: So while that's true, there's the other partner of that dance, 189 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 4: and that's perception, and we're all perceiving people very actively, 190 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 4: and we're like projecting our ideas and meanings onto them. 191 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 4: And I felt like that was being under discussed at 192 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 4: the time, and that was not only a huge part 193 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 4: of Whipping Girl, but that's become a part of a 194 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: lot of my other books, like including my most recent book, 195 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: Sextup how society sexualizes us. 196 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 3: And how we can fight back. 197 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 4: One way that I would describe that book is it's 198 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 4: talking about sex and sexuality not from what people do, 199 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: but from how we perceive and interpret sex and sexuality, 200 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 4: because there are a lot of unconscious ideas, often really 201 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 4: horrible ideas, really hierarchical ideas that are kind of built 202 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 4: into the way we view the world. And interrogating that 203 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 4: and so, yeah, that was a very big part of 204 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 4: both Whopen Girl and then my writings since then. 205 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think that is something where 206 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: things have gotten better in terms of in terms of 207 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: how we think about gender, which I don't know, like 208 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: things aren't perfect, but it definitely it definitely improved things 209 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 2: a lot. Agreed, we're going to take an ad break 210 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 2: and when we come back, we're talking trans misogyny. We're back. Yeah. 211 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: So another thing I wanted to sort of talk about 212 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: was I think, in like exactly the opposite process that 213 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: happened to misgendering, trans misogyny has become a lot more 214 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: expansive than your original sort of kind of narrow conception 215 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: of it. And I think this has been changing a lot, 216 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: especially in the last about half decade or so. So 217 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: I was wondering what you think about the way that 218 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: this concept has kind of taken on a life of 219 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: its own in recent years and what it's been doing since. 220 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 221 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 4: So I feel like trans misogyny that there are a 222 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 4: lot of different dialogues and discourses about it coming, like 223 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 4: people coming from different perspectives with it, and some people 224 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 4: feeling like the word is doing things that I never 225 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 4: suggested it was doing. 226 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: It's kind of. 227 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 4: Hard to know like where to actually come in on this, 228 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 4: but for me, when I was first writing about it, 229 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 4: I was first just noticing that a lot of the 230 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: quote unquote transphobia that I was facing when people know 231 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 4: as a trans woman was actually a lot of it 232 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: was just misogyny, and a lot of it targeted like 233 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 4: kind of my femininity rather than my transness, And so 234 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 4: I wanted to write about that, and kind of the 235 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: way that I framed it in the book was, which 236 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 4: I think is a really useful kind of model for 237 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 4: thinking about it, is that there most of the types 238 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 4: of sexism that feminists have described over the many years 239 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: fall into two sort of camps, one of them being 240 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 4: oppositional sexism, which is the idea that men and women 241 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 4: are kind of perfectly opposite, mutually exclusive sexes that have 242 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 4: different interests and attributes and desires, and so a lot 243 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 4: of transphobia and homophobia are kind of like built into 244 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 4: this idea that men and women are completely distinct. And 245 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 4: then the other one is traditional sexism, which is the 246 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 4: idea that femalists and femininity are less legitimate than malness 247 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 4: and masculinity. And a lot of CIS feminists have kind 248 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 4: of viewed all of that as just sexism, right, But 249 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 4: when you break it down like that, it makes it 250 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 4: clear that the double bind that a lot of feminists 251 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 4: have talked about is actually kind of these two different 252 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 4: forms of sexism. So if a CIS woman acts appropriately femininely, 253 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 4: so appropriate with scare quotes. If a SIST woman acts femininely, 254 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 4: she'll be seen as appropriate, but she'll be dismissed because 255 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 4: femininity is dismissed in our culture, So that's the way 256 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 4: that she'll be delegitimized. Whereas if she acts in ways 257 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 4: that are coded as masculine, and if she acts assertive 258 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 4: or aggressive, then people will malign her for being kind 259 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 4: of a barrant or deviant, right, And so oppositional sexism 260 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 4: helps keep traditional sexism in place because you can say 261 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 4: that malness and masculinity or superior. But that only works 262 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 4: if you can also make a clear distinction between you know, 263 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 4: those people and people are female and feminine, and so 264 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: I think this plays out differently. And I want to 265 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 4: be really clear about this, because some people have interpreted 266 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 4: trans misogyny to mean that trans mail and trans masculine 267 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 4: people don't experience misogyny, which is something I have never said. 268 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 4: And obviously the fact that oppositional sexism is a form 269 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 4: of sexism, and obviously trans maild transmasculine people experience that. 270 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: But also depending upon on how. 271 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 4: You're viewed by other people, I feel like the same 272 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 4: double pind that affects this woman affects transmeild. 273 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: Trans masculine people differently. 274 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 4: Where there's this tendency, like in a lot of anti 275 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 4: trans discourses to dismiss trans masculine, especially transmasculine youth as 276 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 4: being merely girls quote unquote who are like you know, 277 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 4: misled or seduced by gender ideology, right, And there's a 278 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 4: lot of real anti feminine and anti misogynistic ideas in there. 279 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 4: In addition to the fact that it misgenders transmeild trans 280 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 4: masculine people. And then if trans maild trans masculine people, 281 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 4: when they experience transphobia, there's often you know, like they're 282 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 4: seen as deviant for kind of breaking that role, but 283 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 4: often the malness or their masculinity themselves are not, you know, 284 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 4: denigrated in the same way, because being male, being masculine 285 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 4: are seen as good in our culture. It's just that 286 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 4: if you trans male, trans masculine, it's like, well, you're 287 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 4: quote unquote just a woman, so you can't do it. 288 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 4: So I think it plays out in this very complex 289 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 4: way for a lot of trans mail trans masculine people, 290 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 4: I think for trans female and transfeminine people, because our 291 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 4: crossing of oppositional sexism also involves us kind of moving 292 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 4: towards the female towards the feminine, that there's kind of 293 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 4: those two forces intersect in a way so that it's 294 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 4: like exacerbated. And some of the ways I talk about 295 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 4: this in whomen Girl is that, well, we live in 296 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: a world where masculinity is seen as natural and femininity 297 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 4: is seen as artificial, and since trans people are also 298 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 4: seen as artificial compared to this gender people, a lot 299 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 4: of times we're viewed as doubly artificial. Furthermore, the idea 300 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 4: that like women are seen as sex objects, men aren't 301 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 4: seen as sex objects. Often are transitions or gender transgressions 302 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 4: towards a female towards a feminine are presumed to be 303 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 4: driven by sexual motives that can play out in all 304 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 4: sorts of ways. Whether this is the idea that we're 305 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 4: like hypersexual or promiscuous, or that we want to be 306 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 4: sexualized by other people, or you can see it a 307 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 4: lot with the kind of the transgender predator is often 308 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 4: coded as like a man who either has some kind 309 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 4: of fetish or perversion or is just literally deceiving people 310 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 4: to get into women's restrooms to do something horrific. 311 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 3: So those are some of the ways that it plays out. 312 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 3: I feel that. 313 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 4: Sometimes people view it in a cut or dried way 314 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 4: that either they'll assume that trans misogyny means that transnal, 315 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 4: trans massacuine people don't experience misogyny, which again is not 316 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 4: what that's about. Or sometimes people will try to make 317 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 4: really clear distinctions. There's kind of language like trans misogyny 318 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 4: affected versus trans misogyny exempt. Are the terms yeah, TME 319 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 4: and TMA, which are not terms I've used and which 320 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 4: or that I didn't coin them. 321 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 3: They're not in the book. 322 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 4: And I think that when I first saw that language, 323 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 4: and I've seen people use it in a way that 324 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: appreciates the fact that some people are non binary, so 325 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 4: it's a non identity based way. Sometimes this can play 326 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 4: out in a really cut or dried sort of manner 327 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 4: that you know, sometimes you know, whether it's intended this 328 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 4: way or not, it can make it seem that, like, 329 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 4: you know, just boiling down a really complex experience, people's 330 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 4: complex experiences with different types of sexism into some people 331 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 4: are privileged and some people are marginalized, which I think 332 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 4: is a more general problem that happens kind of throughout 333 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 4: all social justice movement. 334 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 5: So yeah, and trans people are not alien to having 335 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 5: complex experiences be boiled down to three and four letter acronyms. 336 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean I. 337 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 4: Did this in Twitter form, so it was like a thread, 338 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 4: so like now, people can't access threads unless you. 339 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: Have an account with Twitter. And it's from a couple 340 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: of years ago. 341 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 4: But one of the things that I talked about was 342 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 4: I wrote this essay about ten years ago about how 343 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 4: sis and trans is kind of a useful. Those are 344 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 4: useful terms, but sometimes people fall in between CIS and trans, 345 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 4: and sometimes they can be used in a way to 346 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 4: talk about different double standards, like CIS people are treated 347 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 4: one way, TRANS people are treated another. 348 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: But sometimes it can be used in like a sort. 349 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 4: Of reverse discourse way, where it's like, you know, SIS 350 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 4: people of all the privilege, TRANS people of none of 351 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 4: the privilege, and it can be used to kind of 352 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 4: create this strict dichotomy that ends up excluding and invisibilizing 353 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 4: some people's experiences. And I feel the same thing is 354 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 4: happening with TME and TMA. So I don't think that 355 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 4: those terms need to necessarily be like, I don't think 356 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 4: there's anything bad about those terms per se in and 357 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 4: of themselves, but I think sometimes they can be used 358 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 4: in ways. And part of why I reference this this 359 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 4: SYS and trans essay that I wrote many years ago. 360 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 4: It appears in my book Outspoken. I forget the complete 361 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 4: title right now, which is but the reason why I 362 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 4: bring that up is so sometimes what happens is that 363 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 4: when people learn about sexism CIS, people might be like, oh, 364 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 4: I face the sexism right if I'm a woman and 365 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 4: I don't shave my legs, I'm facing s sexism, and 366 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 4: so then trans people say, yeah, but it kind of 367 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 4: plays out differently for us, And so sometimes in order 368 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 4: to stop people from kind of making those claims, which 369 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 4: I think it is true that you know, a woman 370 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 4: not shaving their legs, or if a man decides to 371 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 4: put on a dress one day, regardless of whether they're 372 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 4: sis or trans, they could experience says sexism or transphobia, 373 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 4: but it plays out differently for people who are actually members 374 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 4: of that marginalized group. And so then the marginalized group 375 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 4: makes the distinction even sharper, and it just kind of 376 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 4: becomes this escalating situation where the language and kind of 377 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 4: battles over it become even more intense. In a recent piece, 378 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 4: one of the most recent pieces, if you go to 379 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 4: like my medium site where my essays usually are now 380 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 4: is it talks about the trans mass versus trans discourse 381 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 4: in terms of what I call the cultural feminist doom loop, 382 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 4: where the doom loop refers to kind of these ideas 383 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 4: where everyone like both sides are trying to talk about 384 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: the reason why their experiences are legit, and then that 385 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 4: seems as though the other sides are not legitimate, and 386 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 4: then that kind of cascades in a way that ends 387 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 4: up not being very productive but takes up a lot 388 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 4: of energy on. 389 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: Places like Twitter. 390 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think that's something We've still seen 391 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 2: about one trillion times variety of toxic ways. But what 392 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 2: isn't toxic is the new third edition of Whipping Girl 393 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: coming out in March with you can ask your local 394 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: bookstore to pre order now and Yeah, join us tomorrow 395 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 2: for our discussion with doctor Serrano of the Anatomy of 396 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 2: Moral Panics. This is when it could happen here. Trans 397 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: people are great. 398 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media. 399 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 400 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: polzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 401 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 402 00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: find sources for it could Happen here, updated in month 403 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.