1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's an old adage 2 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: among church folks that says, God don't make no garbage. 3 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: That implying that anything that has the spark of life 4 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: that is given to them by their creator, that's a 5 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: thing of beauty. It's a thing not to be disregarded or, 6 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: in our case today, discarded. Some cases leave you with 7 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: insufficient information. And I don't mean just as an investigator, 8 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: but as a human walkiness earth to make sense of. 9 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 1: You think about a precious life, You think about all 10 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: the remains of that life after it's come to an end, 11 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: and then you think about the idea of hearth and 12 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: home and a loving family, gentle touch of a mother. Today, 13 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: we're actually going to have a discussion about a young boy, 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: a young boy who was only ten years old up 15 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: in Illinois, Rock Island, Illinois specifically, and his name is 16 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: Zion Zion Staples, and according to what investigators are saying, 17 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: his body was left abandoned an old trash can. I'm 18 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags. I have 19 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: a routine, Dave. Once a week, I grab my city 20 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: issued garbage can and I roll it out to the 21 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: street and take it out, put it on the curb, 22 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: and generally on Monday mornings, somebody that my wife and 23 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: I really like a lot, our garbage man comes by 24 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: and picks it up. As a matter of fact, we 25 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: make sure that he gets present every year at Christmas. 26 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: It's a hard job. I mean it really is. And 27 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: think about what you're dealing with. You're dealing with those 28 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: things that are regarded as waste by people that occupy 29 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: these homes. Either it's things that are biodegradable, or of course, 30 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: we have the recycling bin and I never can't remember 31 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: when it's time to recycle. It's like every other week 32 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: on a Wednesday, and inevitably I'll forget the color. The 33 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: cans are different colors and all that stuff, and Kim 34 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: will say to me, you didn't take the recycling out today. 35 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: I was like, oh god, I missed it again. I 36 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: got to wait another two weeks. But the garbage can itself. 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: I make sure that I'm on top of that, because 38 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: you leave it by the house first off, where you're 39 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: going to put more garbage if you don't empty it, 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: and then you invite passed around. It's foul. It's not 41 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 1: something that you necessarily want to live adjacent to. And 42 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: that's what happens with just about any kind of biological substance. 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: It's going to break down. And part of being a 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: death investigator, Dave is we study these areas. We study 45 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: decompositional rates. 46 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: Hey, Joe, before we get too far into decomposition I 47 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: want everyone to understand why we're taught talking about garbage, 48 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: garbage cans, dcomp It's because police were asked to do 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: a welfare check on a ten year old child after 50 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: a neighbor became concerned about some offhanded comments made by 51 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: the child's mother, Sushi Staples. Sushi Staples is a mother 52 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: of eight raising her children in the northwestern Illinois city 53 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: of Rock Island. When police contacted Staples and asked about 54 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: her son, she claims she didn't have a ten year 55 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: old son. Police knew better and that gave them the 56 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: ability to begin their search. As they're going through the home, 57 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: they don't find ten year old Zion Staples. When they 58 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: got to the garage, they found what they were looking 59 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: for in a trash can. It was the body of 60 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: ten year old Zion Staples, and he had been there 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: long enough that the body was in a state of decomposition, 62 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: which is why we're talking about this today. 63 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: Here's an interesting thing about decomposition. When you are smelling decomposition, 64 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: it's closely todd with taste. Your olfactory senses and your 65 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: ability to taste are connected. I think that's one of 66 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: the reasons you never can get past it. 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: Zion Staples not trash, but you've treated like trash. 68 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what attracted me to this case because 69 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of case that is not typical of body bags, 70 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: but it is something that needs to be explored because 71 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: I think that these circumstances come about with I'm not 72 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: going to say great frequency, but it does happen with 73 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: individuals who abuse the dead. And that's what it comes 74 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: down to. And I think that there's a lens that 75 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: you can look through society. This lens of how we 76 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,119 Speaker 1: treat our dead is very reflective of how we treat 77 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: others in our life in the living world. 78 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 2: Then what shows now between the dismemberments and the throwaways, 79 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: we really do not cherish life the way we're supposed to. 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: We don't, and I think a lot of that has 81 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that where as a society. 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: We've become very numb to it unless it happens to you, 83 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: and you're a person with a tender heart. But when 84 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: you get so connected, disconnected rather and callous toward even 85 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: family members, Dave. 86 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: Your ten year old son, you're going to be that 87 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 2: dismissive of a human of a ten year old son. 88 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: Think about it. 89 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a child that you birth, that you 90 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: carried in your body for nine months. This is a 91 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: child that you fed, you cleaned, you bathed, Maybe you 92 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: were engaged in their education or whatnot. You would listen 93 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: to them as they would cry and try to explain 94 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: things to you that were going on in their life. 95 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: You try to give them wise counsel, even at the 96 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: age of eight, nine, ten, and even before then. And 97 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: this is what you decide to do when you allegedly 98 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: find them deceased. I'm kind of amazed by the nature 99 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: of this case, Dave. 100 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: I think because you're looking at it two ways. You're 101 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: looking at it as you or I think about a child, 102 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: our own children, grandchild. You're thinking about it. She doesn't 103 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: the mother here, Sushi staples. She denies having a ten 104 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: year old son. Police are there for a welfare check 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: because others know she has a ten year old son, 106 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: they haven't seen him, and when police ask her, she 107 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: I don't have one. Don't know what I'm about. So 108 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: when they find Zion Staples in the trash can wearing 109 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 2: his Spider Man PJ bottoms, and obviously he's been dead 110 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: for some time. To solve this crime, they have to 111 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: know when he died, right, And I'm wondering, Joe, is 112 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 2: there any way really and truly to find out how 113 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: long the child has been dead, not necessarily in the 114 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 2: trash can, because we don't know what happened before he 115 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: ended up in the trash can. That's the end of 116 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 2: the story. We've got a body in the trash can? 117 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: But what how do you figure that out? Is there 118 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: a way that you can figure out when he died 119 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 2: with any kind of certainty at all? 120 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: It's very difficult. And there's this. I found this very 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: frequently when I speak with people, and even when I 122 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: appear on other programs and whatnot, people will say, well, 123 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: can you tell specifically when this happened? No, not scientifically. 124 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: You know, I always use the term bracketed. We can 125 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: bracket times. 126 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: You mean, like between this time and this time. 127 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, specifically, and the way I kind of each this 128 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: day when we're talking about decomposition is in very broad terms, 129 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: and you have to be very careful with it because 130 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: when you're teaching new police officers are certainly my college 131 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 1: students at Jack State. You don't want them to walk 132 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: out of the door and into the field and believe 133 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: that what they have learned at that point in time, 134 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: they can go out and they can actually tell inquiring 135 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: minds that they can tell you precisely when an individual died, 136 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: because in our world that's one of the biggest fallacies 137 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: of all. As a death investigator, one of the most 138 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: daunting tasks that you have. I think a lot of 139 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: people would think that it has something to do with 140 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: bloodstained interpretation or perhaps injury interpretation assessment and that sort 141 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: of thing. Those types of things are a bit more 142 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: static than trying to assess a body that has been 143 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: down for a long long time. And over the years 144 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: in the forensic science community, we've thrown a lot of 145 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: resources in the areas of studying post mortem changes to 146 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: try to narrow things down because that's one of the 147 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: biggest questions that we'll get at a scene or the 148 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: friends of pathologists to get hey, doc, how long has 149 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: this person been deceased? In Sometimes, Dave, I got to 150 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: tell you, we don't have absolute answers. 151 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: I'm shocked at that. I really did think that, not 152 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: like rings of a tree, but I did think that. 153 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: I don't know what I was thinking, but it never 154 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: really occurred to me that you couldn't. So I come 155 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: and take your class at school, and when I get done, 156 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: I leave there knowing that I've got a lot more 157 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: studying to do. Doesn't it take years of experience to 158 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: really know what you're even looking at? 159 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: Joe? 160 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you ope up the trash can and you 161 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: see a body in there. You know it wasn't there yesterday. 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: You know it was a while. 163 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: Would and I think that let me kind of tell 164 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: you how this breaks down if you have a body 165 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: that is in a container like that's been down for 166 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: I think we're looking at like seven months since the 167 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: last time's on was seeing Dave. 168 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: We know he hasn't been seen alive this year. We 169 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: know that last time was in December. That's what we 170 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: do know. Last time he was seen doesn't mean he 171 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: was dead. They might not have seen him. 172 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: Right, You're right. You hear the old report about people 173 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: go to follow a missing person's report on an adult 174 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: and they'll say, well, you got to wait this period 175 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: of time, or they're an adult, they can do whatever 176 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: they want to do. Not in the case of a 177 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: ten year old. If you've got a ten year old 178 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: missing and the primary caretaker is not saying peep about it, 179 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: matter of fact, was that you said just a second 180 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: ago when initial contacts she denied that she even had 181 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: the child. 182 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: Yep, don't even have a child. I don't have a son. 183 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. 184 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: No wonder their radar went up. So how do you 185 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: measure this? And let me tell you, I've had cases 186 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: that are similar to this, and I think many people 187 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: think that you would just find kind of the withered 188 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: room of a human in the bottom of this plastic container. 189 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: That's not what you're going to see when you open 190 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: this up after seven months. To be brutally honest, here, 191 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: when you look within a container like this in this's 192 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: face that it's a plastic container. It holds on to 193 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: a lot of bacteria, it holds on to a lot 194 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: of moisture, plastic sweats, and it'll go through these kind 195 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: of evolutions. As it changes, the body is going to 196 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: change within it, so you're going to have kind of 197 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: this damp, wet mess and sometimes it can be described as, 198 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, soupy. 199 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: Would weather have an impact on the rate. 200 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it would, let's say, for instance, and we're talking 201 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: up in Illinois, so it's a bit cooler during the wintertime. 202 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: The mother had his body in the basement. But at 203 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: some point, and I'm guessing because of the smell, and 204 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: I hate boy, I feel like I'm being so disrespectful 205 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: to say that. 206 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: No, that's the reality of it, man. 207 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: That at some point in time, and I don't know 208 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: exactly when this was be she moved the body from 209 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: the basement of the house out to the growl. The 210 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: basement odor is going to come right up through the vents. 211 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: One thing police did find as they were investigating. I 212 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: remember they were called out there to see, Hey, what's 213 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 2: going on with this child ababness anymore? They start looking, 214 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: they find him that day they're investigating and find the 215 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: dryer towels. Dryer lin towels are the smell well, my 216 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: wife got the smell good towels. 217 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: They're in the vents, the fragrance towels, the little things 218 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: that you put into your dryer. 219 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: She put them in there in the vents all around 220 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: her house because that Joe, I'd never even thought about that. 221 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: Listen, there are several odors in this world that you 222 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: just cannot knock down. How many times have you ever 223 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: been You've been in a work environment and somebody puts 224 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: fish in a microwave. You can't escape it. Okay, imagine 225 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: that smell and then multiply that not a factor of 226 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: ten when you're in enclosed structure with a decomposing human 227 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: being and it is absolutely foul. 228 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: Those dryer, She's not gonna be strong enough to get 229 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: rid of that. 230 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: They're not going to knock it down. And no matter 231 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: what your efforts are in order to kind of thwart 232 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: And here's one of the other really insidious things about 233 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: this day. This person allegedly moved this child around, migrated. Well, 234 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: first off, I hate to say this, but she stowed 235 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: him in the basement of this home and then decided, 236 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: once the smell had gotten so foul, she moved him 237 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: to this outer area inside of the trash can. Here's 238 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: what is so very horrible about this. It's not just 239 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: her smelling it day. She's got little babies living in 240 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: that house with her that are in dwelling the same 241 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: structure with this foul older. All of a sudden, this 242 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: foul odor becomes normalized in their day to day life. 243 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: Let's just paint this just for a second. Let's step 244 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: out down the road. Let's say, I don't know, ten 245 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: years from now, the smell. How many times have you 246 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: heard people say, smell the smell of a decomposing human being, 247 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: You'll never forget it. And I've heard that over and 248 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: over throughout my career. Think about that, and then think 249 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: about the idea that not only do you have to 250 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: do the calculus in your mind about that, but then 251 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: you think I smelled my brother decomposing all of this 252 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: period of time. Do you realize how deep that scar 253 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: would run. That's what this family in total has been 254 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: subjected to. Not to mention any visitors that she may 255 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: have had. Now, one of the things I've found with 256 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: people that leave the dead in the house, they'll do 257 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: everything they can to avoid anybody outside of their little 258 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: cocooned environment. They'll thwart them from coming over, They'll make 259 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: excuses or they'll meet them at the door and go 260 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: outside just so that they don't come in. I don't 261 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: know what the end game here was, but when the 262 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: investigators would have gotten out to that scene, they would 263 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: have seen this absolute jumble in the trash can. There's 264 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: a high probability that after this period of time you 265 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: would have had at least some skeletonization that had begun 266 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: to take place. Because when decomposition, we look at post 267 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: wartum changes in two ways. We have what A referred 268 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: to I refer to them this way. We look at 269 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: it in a micro sense, and that is where and 270 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: you've heard me talk about this day Ryger mortis live 271 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: or mortis algor mortis. And then we look at gaster 272 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: contents as well, and that's kind of a timing thing. 273 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: But you know that those things, particularly riger liver and algar, 274 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: which is the cooling of the body, that is evidence 275 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: of early sign of decomposition. That's in a micro sense, 276 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: and that happens over a very short period of time 277 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: up to we can measure out to about thirty six 278 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: hours with that. But once you get out beyond that 279 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: marker in time, you get into the macro area where 280 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: you'll be able to see changes in the human form 281 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: at that point in time, and regardless of how the 282 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: person died. The decomposition itself is defined as the disintegration 283 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: of body temperatures after death, and so the body goes 284 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: through what are referred to as autolytic changes, and the autolysis, 285 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: if you will, that takes place. You have these enzymes 286 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: that are beginning to release from the cells and these 287 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: disintegrating cells, and they're freeing up everything that's contained within 288 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: those cells, and it's leaching out. It's leaking out, and 289 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: that spreads because the body there's no longer any kind 290 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: of metabolic activity that's going on in the body. So 291 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: the body almost begins in certain senses, particularly where it's 292 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: really rich in enzymes, places like the liver or the pancreas. 293 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: You know, the body actually begins to digest itself, and 294 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: so you can see that early on in the process. 295 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: But as you. 296 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: Expand out time wise, when you're going down that linear timeline, 297 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: it begins to leach out into other areas of the 298 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: body and also externally, and you get changes in the 299 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: color of skin. We have a factor that we look 300 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: at people have heard of if you judge like a 301 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: cut of steak, they refer to the marbling in the steak, 302 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: and that's the little lines of fat that go well. 303 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: We have a term called marbling in the assessment of decomposition. 304 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: And after a period of time, you'll see literally the 305 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: vessels in the human body, they'll turn kind of a 306 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: black stained color and you can follow the path to 307 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: the vessels through the face, through the arms, and that's 308 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: called marbling. And that takes a certain amount of time 309 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: to happen. And what's happening is the blood that remains 310 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: in those vessels begins to decompose in there, and so 311 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: it changes color, and that's manifested on the exterious skin. 312 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: All of these are very These are markers that we 313 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: look for with decomposition. 314 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: Would there be a difference between how the person died, 315 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: For example, if I die of heart attack and I 316 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: just don't feel like burying him in the backyard right now, 317 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: I'm mistick him in the track and just take me 318 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: and put me in a trash. Can I die of 319 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: natural causes or in this case, we know that he 320 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: was shot in the head. We know this ten year 321 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: old boy was shot in the head. And by the way, 322 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: the reason we haven't jumped out to tell you who 323 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 2: did it or what. They don't know who did it, 324 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: they being the investigators, still don't know. But we do 325 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: know that he was shot in the head and that 326 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: caused his death. 327 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: Trauma can influence the rate at which a body decomposes 328 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: in this one area. If you have a large open area, 329 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: which many times you will have, say, for instance, if 330 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: you've sustained like massive blunt force trauma to the head 331 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: or an impact injury associated with a gunshot wound, that 332 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: opens up that area and all of the little nasties 333 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: that come along with that, and I'm thinking larval development 334 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: with flies and all of stuff. This can actually speed 335 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: some of the decompositional process. But those areas that are 336 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: contained that are not associated directly with a trauma, they'll 337 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: kind of progress at the same rate. But that injury 338 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: is still going to impact the rest of the body, 339 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: and you have to factor that in. What we don't 340 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: know about Zion's death at this point is how extensive 341 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: this gunshot wound is. And I have to tell you, 342 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: when his body finally did make it to the coroner's office, 343 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: there would have to be a pains taking examination. That 344 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: is going to involve everything from ballistics to post mortemax rays. 345 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: The biggest puzzles that we encounter in my way of thinking, 346 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: based upon my experience, have to do with decomposing bodies, 347 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: and the more advanced the state of decomposition, and in 348 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: zience case, we're talking about a little boy that was 349 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: down for seven months, the more steep the grade it 350 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: is that you're going to have to go up in 351 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: order to try to determine what happened to this precious 352 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: little boy. And everything is clouded. It's all clouded with 353 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: decompositional change, and it really makes your job difficult in 354 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: any number of ways. But there are certain methods that 355 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: we employ in order to try to at least take 356 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: the first steps. The fact that his body is contained 357 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: within a bag within the trash can makes it a 358 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: bit simpler task. But here's the problem. You don't know 359 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: how to structurally compromise that bag is going to be 360 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: And buddy, once you lift that thing up, and remember 361 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: they had to open that bag at the scene in 362 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: order to see what was in there, so now you've 363 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: already kind of changed how it was left in the 364 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: pristine condition to begin with. First off, I've had bodies 365 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: that have been brought in in cars, they're just not 366 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: removed from the cars. They're brought into the crime lab. 367 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: That way on the back of the flatbed covered with 368 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: a tarp, going down the highway with a body in there. 369 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: I've had bodies brought in in steel drums because they 370 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: were all contained within there. You crack the lid, you 371 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: look down, you know that you've got human remains. You 372 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: close it back down, and that way you can see 373 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: the body in its pristine condition. My first reaction to 374 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: this case, particularly since we know that Zion's remains were 375 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: contained in a trash bag, is that they were probably 376 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: extricated from the container and then placed into a body 377 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: bag actually at the scene and kind of let me 378 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: tell you what happens now. First off, you have to 379 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: take great care. 380 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 2: If he is. 381 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: In say semi fetal position in the base of this can. 382 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: We have to imagine that he probably he was, and 383 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: he is in this state. It would take several hands 384 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: to be able to go in and kind of lift 385 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: him up and keep him in this same position so 386 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: that nothing rearranges. You don't have because you're talking about decomposition. 387 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: What if you have a bone that pokes through the bag. 388 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: You have to be able to contain everything that you 389 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: possibly can to get him into a body bag. And 390 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: here's something that people might not think about. You don't 391 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: adjust his position relative to what suits your mindset, because 392 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: we all think about it classically. We think about dead 393 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: bodies in a funeral home where they're laying souphine on 394 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 1: their back with their arms crossed. That's atypical. If you 395 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: ever see that at a scene you walk in, you 396 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: need to shut the scene down and begin to work. 397 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: That thing is something unexplained because people don't die that way, 398 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: all right, But you have to keep that body in 399 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,719 Speaker 1: the original position when you place it into the body 400 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: bag and then seal it up. Then be very careful 401 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: when you're transporting, and many times what we'll do is 402 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: will double back bodies just so that we don't lose 403 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: anything that stabilizes the body more. But once that body 404 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: is back to the morgue and you have them in there, 405 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: you weigh the body. First off on the gurney. You 406 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: subtract the weight of the gurney that the body is 407 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: on and you get a weight, and the weight may 408 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: have changed with him significantly from what it was in life, 409 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: because you're talking about a child that has been decomposing 410 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: for seven months, and that's significant because that gives you 411 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: evidence that you've got tissue loss and compromise of tissue. Then, 412 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: before the bag is ever opened, ave you're going to 413 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: take his body, they would have taken Zign's body into 414 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: the cool room, placed him in a tray in this 415 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: original position, and then they would have brought out the 416 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: portable X ray machine. And this is where you're really 417 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 1: going to be able to determine what's going on, because 418 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: up to this point as a death investigator and in 419 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: the world of the forensic pathologists, as they're looking at 420 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: his remains, they're seeing a decomposing mass before them that 421 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: has these horrible color to it, dark colors, green, black, blue, 422 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: those sorts of things, because this process is continuing on. 423 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: And then if he has clothing, you remember the Spider 424 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Man Pj's that he had on, you can't visualize effectively 425 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: with the unaided eye just looking at that body. One 426 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 1: of the best tools that we have in forensics is 427 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: actually X ray. Most Morgues have portable X ray. Now, 428 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: for a time they didn't, which is absurd, but you 429 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: x ray in totality the body and the way. If 430 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: you've ever been to the doctor and they tell you 431 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: put your chin up on the board, they're going to 432 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: shoot you, and they shoot from, say, for instance, from 433 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: your the device is aimed at your back, it's going through. 434 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: That's what's referred to as an ap shot. And then 435 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: they tell you to turn to your side. That's a 436 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: lateral shot, so that gives you position as you're looking 437 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: at the body, and it gives you depth as you 438 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: look at the side. And with a gunshot wound, if 439 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: that's what they believe has happened in Zion's case, you 440 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: want to know depth, and you want to know position 441 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: relative well position and depth relative to the trajectory, because 442 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: this might be your best shot at assessing the movement 443 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: of the body through the skull. If the projectile did 444 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: not exit the body. And we don't know this as 445 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: of yet, I hope that we'll find out very soon. 446 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: You're going to have this what's referred to as a 447 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: radio opaque image that's going to show up on the 448 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: X ray on the film itself, and it'll give you 449 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: an idea as to where the projectile is located in 450 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 1: the head. Here's one other thing that you'll see, and 451 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: this can help you out when you're trying to determine 452 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: the trajectory of the round. That means the path at 453 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: which it took. The trajectory defines was it from below 454 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: to above, from above to below, And dependent upon how 455 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: many X rays you take, you can do an assessment 456 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: from left to right, right to left, or front to back. 457 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: So you have to get all of these images before 458 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: you ever touch the body. But one of the things 459 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: you can pick up on these X rays, it's pretty fascinating. 460 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: If a bullet passes through the external table of the skull, 461 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: two things happen many times. The skull is going to 462 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: fragment and it creates almost like little bits of bone shrapnel, 463 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: if you will, and they'll track along the path to 464 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: a certain depth, and you can actually pick up on 465 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: those and it'll give you an indication of path. Also, 466 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: sometimes with a lead core projectile, you'll see little bits 467 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: of metal that will fleck off in the path of 468 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,719 Speaker 1: the bullet. It's kind of distributing these things before it 469 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: finally comes to rest. And if the bullet actually passed 470 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: through the body, let's say it comes out of the 471 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: top of the head. Maybe he shot and adjacent to 472 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: the right eye it comes out of the top of 473 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: the head. The left I don't know, let's say the 474 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: left parietal area up behind the left ear. That bullet 475 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: might be lotched in a wall somewhere and it's been 476 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: covered up. Remember he's been down for seven months. So 477 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: that X ray is going to be one of the 478 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: key pieces of evidence that you're going or it's one 479 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: of the key things that you use as a tool 480 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: rather to kind of give you an idea, a snapshot 481 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: back in time to what actually happened to Zion Dave. 482 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: Because you have to figure it out and right now 483 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: what we do know. According to the lead detective in 484 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: the case, Jonathan Shappard, he said he's put the Rock 485 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: Island Police Department and he said that they've interviewed everybody 486 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: in this particular case. 487 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: Joe. 488 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 2: Here's a twist. Two of Zion's sisters said that Zion 489 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: was seen playing with a handgun and accidentally shot himself. 490 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 2: His sisters tell police that. So now my mind jumps 491 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: to all the while while I was doing this, thinking 492 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 2: of the story and thinking of the little boy in 493 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: the trash can be and moved from the basement to 494 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: the garage, and the odor and putting the dryer sheets 495 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: in the vents and all the thing's done to cover 496 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: this up. Now I'm finding out that two other children 497 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: had to either lie or not tell the truth about 498 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 2: what happened to the little to their older brother. Is 499 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: that what we're going to deal with here? And can 500 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: you tell me did he shoot himself? Based on what's left. 501 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: There are a few limited positions, and I don't know 502 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: how strong Zion was. Let's say it's a full size handgun. 503 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: Let's say you have a so that people can kind 504 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: of understand. Let's say that it is a handgun. The 505 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: sides of what you might see on the utility belt 506 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: or the service belt of a police officer walking around town. 507 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: Those are full sized handguns they're carrying. This is not 508 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: a compact weapon. It takes a bit of strength, certainly 509 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: for a ten year old to lift this weapon and 510 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: to then get it in such a position that the 511 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: muzzle is facing some aspect of his skull so that 512 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: when the firing process is initiated and it finally leads 513 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: to his death. It's going to be difficult to determine. 514 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: First off, we typically don't have any clothing items covering 515 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: our face, all right, So if we have a shirt, 516 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: we'll have a distribution of soot and powder and that 517 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: sort of thing that we look for on the skin, 518 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: Like if you're shot in the face or wherever the 519 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: weapon may have been positioned, you look for deposition buried 520 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: in the skin. We actually call it tattooing because it 521 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: goes just beneath the layer of the skin. But Dave, 522 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: here's the rub in all of this. With decomposition, and 523 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: remember I talked about liquefying, those things are going to 524 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: change precipitously as it certainly applies to the soft tissue. Now, 525 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: whatever bony prominence, let's say, cheek bones, the eye sockets, 526 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: the orbits, the forehead, the temporal area wherever this round 527 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: actually entered the head. Maybe the surface of the bone 528 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: can give you some kind of indication, because if it's 529 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: a press contact wound where you've got that muzzle tightly 530 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: pressed against the skin, the skin will actually, because of 531 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: this exhaust that is created, will actually balloon out and 532 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: you'll see some deposition on the bone. If you see that, 533 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: and that's kind of protected. Even in a decompositional phase, 534 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: you might can do an assessment that way, but it's 535 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: going to be very, very difficult to make heads or 536 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: tails of this simply because of the decomposition that's going on. 537 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: I know that that's horribly disturbing, but I think going 538 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: back to these siblings, first off, did they witness it 539 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: orre they told to keep their mouth shut? And again 540 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: that's another level of horror to this thing. 541 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: You've got to figure this out. You're the guy that 542 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: everybody expects can come in here and you and the 543 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 2: detectives give us an idea of what happened. But in reality, 544 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 2: I'm sitting here while you were describing the gun really 545 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 2: in order to shoot yourself in the head, based on 546 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: how you have to turn your hands, if you're pulling 547 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 2: the trigger with your index finger, it has to be 548 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: on purpose pretty much. You can't as I mean a child, 549 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 2: if you're playing with a gun, you're shooting out, not up, 550 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: not in, And so that angle and distance that's going 551 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 2: to mean something. If all they're left with is two 552 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: children telling you what happened, what do you do with that? 553 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hard. They're going to have to have somebody. 554 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: The police are going to have to have somebody that 555 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: deals specifically with kids, and some of the best to 556 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: equip people are those that deal with child abuse cases. 557 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: And I'll say it plainly right here, this to me 558 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: ranks right up there with child abuse because of what 559 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: you're subjecting psychically over this period of time. 560 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 2: Well, the one thing we found out and covering the 561 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: story Sushi Staples the mother. DCFS, that's the Department of 562 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: Children Family Services in Illinois first had contact with her 563 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: back in two thousand and three. In two thousand and four, 564 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: and at that time removed her two oldest children from 565 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: the home. She has eight children total, ranging in age 566 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: from eight years old to twins. And I'm assuming since 567 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: they said children plural gave them told them that Zion 568 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: was playing with the gun, I'm assuming it's the twins. 569 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: Could be wrong, but it doesn't matter because she's got 570 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,239 Speaker 2: eight children between the ages of eight and twenty. On 571 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: top of that, the motive that is being thrown out 572 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 2: there for hiding the body is so that she could 573 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: continue to collect benefits government benefits EBT, you know, whether 574 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: it's food stamps or other benefits. But that's why she 575 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: hid the body. So now we've got an entire family, 576 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: everybody inside that home had to have known a what 577 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: the smell was? What is that? That's Zion? You want 578 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: to talk about the abuse you just mentioned, Joe, think 579 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: about that from eight to twenty years old, and all 580 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: of them, they're all in involved in the cover up. 581 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: They know he's dead, they know that's the smell. I 582 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: wonder where they made to trade out the dryer sheets 583 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: in the events where they all covering. We know that 584 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: these children were homeschooled, according to DCFS, that the two 585 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: girls were seen outside playing, but we hear nothing of 586 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: the other children. I'm assuming at this point they've all 587 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 2: been accounted for. But they're going to come to you 588 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 2: and ask you. We know he's got a gunshot wound. 589 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: We know he's been dead since December. What else can 590 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: you tell us? Joe? Are you going to be able 591 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: to narrow it down and give the people the answer 592 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: that they seek? 593 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be very difficult, Dave. I 594 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: think that because of how advanced and I know that 595 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: one of these investigators that had been interviewed relative to 596 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: this case actually made a statement, we may never know 597 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: who actually shot Zion or how this actually went down 598 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: because further out on that linear timeline. You move from 599 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: that point when the event took place, the more difficult 600 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: it is to assess the case. And I think that 601 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: there will be many, many questions left to be answered 602 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: unless someone wants to come forward and actually state factually 603 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: what occurred and what time framem it occurred in, whose 604 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: weapon that was, and did he have a history of 605 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: playing with a weapon, how to access the weapon? And 606 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: kids can accidentally shoot themselves with a weapon that's left 607 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: unattended in a home. I can see a little boy, 608 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, picking up a handgun and staring down the 609 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: muzzle of the barrel. That's a horrible thing to think of, 610 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: but that could certainly happen. You were ten, I was ten. 611 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: We're curious and just to initiate that firing sequence. And 612 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: here's another thing we know, or we can at least postulate. 613 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: I think the fact that hammer and that weapon was 614 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: sitting on a live chambered round. If this is a 615 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: semi automatic weapon, that means that all you had to do, 616 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: if the weapon was not unsafe, is you initiate that 617 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: firing sequence, and when it did, it led to Designs death. 618 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: To this date, though Sushi Stayed has only been charged 619 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: she has not been convicted of any crime. I'm Joseph 620 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,959 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bags.