WEBVTT - Refugee Poverty is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:23.156 Buskin, I'm may have Higgins and this is solvable interviews 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:26.596 with the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to 0:00:26.716 --> 0:00:31.236 solve the world's biggest problems. Now, I'm really glad to 0:00:31.276 --> 0:00:34.396 bring you this interview with the journalist Jacob Weisberg in 0:00:34.476 --> 0:00:38.596 conversation with David Miliband. David is the president of the 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:42.636 International Rescue Committee the IRC, and the two of them 0:00:42.756 --> 0:00:45.836 have a timely discussion on how best to serve the 0:00:45.876 --> 0:00:51.276 world's growing population of displaced people. My solvable is that 0:00:51.356 --> 0:00:56.836 refugees and displaced people should have poverty rates, inequality rates, 0:00:56.916 --> 0:01:00.036 lack of opportunity no greater than the rest of the 0:01:00.036 --> 0:01:04.276 population around the world. There are more displaced people than 0:01:04.276 --> 0:01:08.036 at any time in our history. There are nearly seventy 0:01:08.076 --> 0:01:12.916 million forcibly displaced people worldwide, and almost thirty million of 0:01:12.916 --> 0:01:16.876 them have been forced to leave their countries. This global 0:01:17.036 --> 0:01:20.436 refugee crisis has been on the shoulders of the world's 0:01:20.476 --> 0:01:25.516 poorest countries, with eighty four percent of refugees staying in 0:01:25.636 --> 0:01:29.596 developing regions. In a global list of countries that have 0:01:29.676 --> 0:01:33.476 taken in the most refugees, the only European country to 0:01:33.516 --> 0:01:37.316 make it into the top ten is Germany. Last year 0:01:37.636 --> 0:01:40.756 here in the US there was a forty year low 0:01:41.036 --> 0:01:44.836 in numbers, with fewer than twenty three thousand refugees admitted 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:48.556 to the country. Actually, as you listen to this conversation, 0:01:49.036 --> 0:01:52.636 perhaps think about the parallels with what was happening back 0:01:52.676 --> 0:01:55.636 in the nineteen thirties with what's happening now here in 0:01:55.676 --> 0:02:00.316 the US. Syrians and refugees from several other predominantly Muslim 0:02:00.316 --> 0:02:05.556 countries are banned, and back then Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi 0:02:05.636 --> 0:02:11.676 persecution were rejected. In nineteen thirty three, as fascism descended 0:02:11.716 --> 0:02:15.396 on Europe, the Rockefeller Foundation began funding a program to 0:02:15.636 --> 0:02:20.356 resettle scholars that were fleeing that fascism, and ultimately rescued 0:02:20.516 --> 0:02:25.116 hundreds of scholars in their families. In his work with 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:30.676 the IRC, David Milliband oversees the agency's humanitarian relief operations 0:02:31.076 --> 0:02:34.876 in more than forty war affected countries, as well as 0:02:34.876 --> 0:02:39.516 its refugee resettlement programs in cities across the US. David 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:42.796 is actually the son of refugees himself, and you'll hear 0:02:42.836 --> 0:02:47.196 that this really informs his work. Okay, that's enough for me. 0:02:47.436 --> 0:02:51.076 Let's listen to Jacob and David and I'll chat you after. 0:02:52.316 --> 0:02:57.676 The problem is that refugees and displaced people are being 0:02:57.716 --> 0:03:01.076 failed by a humanitarian aid system that is out of 0:03:01.156 --> 0:03:03.956 date and needs significant reform. David, we're here at the 0:03:03.956 --> 0:03:07.196 offices of the Rockefeller Foundation. I did a little research 0:03:07.236 --> 0:03:11.156 and discover that Rockeller has a lot of history with 0:03:11.836 --> 0:03:15.196 the IRC. In fact, it was one of the original 0:03:15.276 --> 0:03:18.996 funders of the work of the Emergency Rescue Committee, the 0:03:19.116 --> 0:03:24.236 ancestral organization to the IRC, which helped get Jews and 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:28.556 other refugees out of Nazi occupied Europe beginning in the 0:03:28.716 --> 0:03:31.996 late nineteen thirties. You're right, and I always talk about 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:34.636 International Rescue Committee because i ASC is one of those 0:03:34.676 --> 0:03:38.956 acronyms that gets lost. The International Rescue Committee is a 0:03:38.996 --> 0:03:42.116 great New York institution in the same way that the 0:03:42.196 --> 0:03:45.516 Rockefeller Foundation is a great New York institution. I think 0:03:45.596 --> 0:03:48.236 that we can claim at the International Rescue Committee that 0:03:48.276 --> 0:03:50.596 if I had to choose between being founded by Einstein 0:03:50.636 --> 0:03:54.076 and founded by Rockefeller, I'd go for Einstein. I'd take 0:03:54.116 --> 0:03:58.636 Einstein over Rockefeller. Founded by Einstein, funded by Rockefeller, that 0:03:59.596 --> 0:04:03.996 double benefit. And Einstein in was here as a refugee 0:04:03.996 --> 0:04:07.356 in the thirties. He was in Princeton when Hitler came 0:04:07.356 --> 0:04:09.916 to power. He never went back to Germany, and he 0:04:10.076 --> 0:04:14.836 was consumed by the fate of his other intellectuals, of family, 0:04:14.876 --> 0:04:17.956 members of the Jewish community across Germany and then across 0:04:17.956 --> 0:04:21.876 occupied Europe. And he wrote these incredibly moving letters, eventually 0:04:21.876 --> 0:04:26.076 to Eleanor Roosevelt, set pleading with her to persuade her husband, 0:04:26.916 --> 0:04:30.356 the President, to allow Jews to come from Europe. Of course, 0:04:30.396 --> 0:04:35.836 American public opinion two thirds in forty opposed allowing Jewish 0:04:35.836 --> 0:04:40.996 refugees into America, and so Einstein in out of with 0:04:41.036 --> 0:04:45.756 this enormous sense of impotence, he brought together some colleagues 0:04:45.756 --> 0:04:48.556 of his to found the Emergency Rescue Committee, became the 0:04:48.556 --> 0:04:50.956 International Rescue Committee, and the first thing they did was 0:04:51.596 --> 0:04:54.596 send a man called Varion Fry, a New York Times 0:04:54.636 --> 0:05:00.076 journalists to occupied France, where he established a safe house 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:04.036 and forged two thousand fake passports and helped two thousand 0:05:04.076 --> 0:05:07.476 people escape from occupied France. It's an amazing history. I 0:05:07.516 --> 0:05:09.636 thought I might just show you this list they found 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:15.116 in the Rockefeller Archive of scholars and intellectuals writers who 0:05:15.516 --> 0:05:19.716 Rockefeller helped to place at American institutions, most heavily at 0:05:19.716 --> 0:05:21.676 the New School in New York. And you look down 0:05:21.716 --> 0:05:26.076 that list and it's a who's who of physics in 0:05:26.116 --> 0:05:30.236 the twentieth century, but it includes Thomas Munn and Claude 0:05:30.276 --> 0:05:34.516 Levi Strauss. And it's just it's just interesting that the 0:05:34.916 --> 0:05:38.596 story is so powerful. It's a resonant story today. And 0:05:39.116 --> 0:05:41.276 you're right, Mark Shagal as well. And it's worth saying 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:43.436 for your listeners. The New School when it was found, 0:05:43.476 --> 0:05:45.916 it was called the University in Exile, the New School 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:48.116 for Social Research, and you it was called the University Excellent. 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:53.956 It was for exiled German intellectuals. Um it's extraordinary history. 0:05:54.196 --> 0:05:56.596 And just to make it personal a little bit, your 0:05:56.756 --> 0:06:00.316 your parents, your your father was it was a refugee scholar, 0:06:00.556 --> 0:06:03.036 was he not? Well, he wasn't quite a scot Carl Polonia. 0:06:03.076 --> 0:06:06.756 I've just seen him amazing not he was what he 0:06:06.796 --> 0:06:08.636 was sixteen when he was a refugee my dad. So 0:06:08.676 --> 0:06:10.756 he wasn't quite a scholar by then, although he did. 0:06:11.836 --> 0:06:17.116 He and his father left Belgium, fled Belgium when the 0:06:17.236 --> 0:06:20.476 Nazis invaded in nineteen forty and he was sixteen years old. 0:06:20.596 --> 0:06:24.076 He became a scholar if you like, at Acton Technical 0:06:24.116 --> 0:06:27.996 College in West London, where it's pretty amazing. Actually he 0:06:28.076 --> 0:06:31.676 learned English and in a year a year later did 0:06:31.716 --> 0:06:34.476 his matriculation and got into the LSE, the London School 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:38.356 of Economics, and so he was and then he the 0:06:38.476 --> 0:06:40.276 LC at that point was in Cambridge, and so he 0:06:40.276 --> 0:06:41.876 spent a r own Cambridge, then joined the Royal Navy. 0:06:41.956 --> 0:06:44.236 My mum was spent the war in Poland and came 0:06:44.316 --> 0:06:46.476 to the UK as a refugee in nineteen forty was 0:06:46.476 --> 0:06:49.156 allowed to come to the UK nineteen forty six as 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:51.196 a refugee on her own as a twelve year old. 0:06:51.236 --> 0:06:54.396 Did you grow up with the consciousness of being the 0:06:54.436 --> 0:06:57.636 son of refugees? Not really, no, And I think that 0:06:58.076 --> 0:07:00.836 I knew that my parents were foreign. I knew that 0:07:00.996 --> 0:07:05.156 the Holocaust had taken large numbers of the family. One 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:10.996 of my grandfathers was killed in a ration camp in 0:07:11.076 --> 0:07:14.836 southwestern Germany in nineteen four y nineteen forty five. But 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:17.356 so there was a consciousness of that history. And of 0:07:17.356 --> 0:07:19.116 course I was born only twenty years after the end 0:07:19.116 --> 0:07:23.076 of the Holocaust, so that was there. But I think 0:07:23.116 --> 0:07:27.316 like many refugees. My parents wanted to give me my 0:07:27.396 --> 0:07:30.396 brother the security that they never had. And you know, 0:07:30.436 --> 0:07:36.636 my dad had grown up knowing communism, fascism, mother knowing Nazism, 0:07:36.676 --> 0:07:40.116 living under it, and they wanted to give us a 0:07:40.156 --> 0:07:45.716 more protected livelihood. But I knew that there was this 0:07:46.196 --> 0:07:49.756 sort of background music to my childhood was what we 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:52.636 had lost and what others had lost. How have the 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:57.556 dimensions of the refugee problem globally changed from what the 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:00.636 world dealt with in the aftermath of the Second World 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:02.516 War and the Holocaust. I mean, I think there are 0:08:02.596 --> 0:08:07.876 three massive changes that people, well four massive changes. Actually, 0:08:07.916 --> 0:08:10.556 people need to understand why this is not just a 0:08:10.636 --> 0:08:14.476 European issue. In the wake of the Second World War, 0:08:14.516 --> 0:08:18.236 it was obviously a European issue, refugee flight. It's now 0:08:18.236 --> 0:08:23.876 a global issue. Secondly, and equally significantly, the notion of 0:08:23.876 --> 0:08:26.876 a refugee was born of the idea that when states fought, 0:08:28.396 --> 0:08:32.196 civilians suffered and they fled, so it's intrinsically a political life. 0:08:33.476 --> 0:08:37.036 It was, yes, it was political, but it was also interstate. 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:39.316 And the point I want to make is today's refugees 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:42.556 are not the product of wars between states they're the 0:08:42.556 --> 0:08:47.796 product of wars within states. So Syria being an obvious example, Afghanistan, Somalia, 0:08:47.876 --> 0:08:50.836 those are not Those countries are not fighting their neighbors, 0:08:51.356 --> 0:08:53.516 they are consumed by the civil wars. So that's the 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:56.916 second big change. The third big change that I would 0:08:57.356 --> 0:09:02.116 point to is the duration of displacement has grown exponentially. 0:09:02.116 --> 0:09:04.396 In other words, if you think about the Second World War, 0:09:06.276 --> 0:09:09.596 Germany had a huge refugee population coming back after nineteen 0:09:09.676 --> 0:09:12.476 forty five, but they were out of their own country 0:09:12.516 --> 0:09:14.436 for I don't want to say only six years, but 0:09:14.956 --> 0:09:17.116 a limited period of time. Today, the figures are hard 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:21.636 to pin down, but for camp based refugee populations, the 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:24.756 average duration of a displacement is around seventeen years, so 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:29.036 you've got much longer displacement. But the fourth difference is 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:32.516 that in the Second World War period, post Second World 0:09:32.516 --> 0:09:38.276 War period, refugees generally were housed in camps. Today, the 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:42.116 phenomenon of urbanization that you've talked about, and I'm sure 0:09:42.156 --> 0:09:46.516 you're going to cover in this series, that phenomenon applies 0:09:46.516 --> 0:09:48.276 to refugees as well. So sixty percent of the world's 0:09:48.276 --> 0:09:52.476 refugees today are in urban areas, not in refugee camps. 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:56.796 What about climate refugee Surely there are beginning to be 0:09:56.956 --> 0:10:00.716 significant numbers of refugees who are affected by climate change, 0:10:00.716 --> 0:10:03.036 and the expectation has to be that THIRSD numbers they're 0:10:03.036 --> 0:10:05.516 going to grow tremendously. Well, it's interesting. I want to 0:10:05.516 --> 0:10:07.676 push back against the first part of what you said, 0:10:07.716 --> 0:10:09.916 not the second, the first part, which is are their 0:10:10.076 --> 0:10:13.196 climate refugees today? Obviously climate change is happening. In the 0:10:13.196 --> 0:10:15.436 International Rescue Committee, we see that every day in our 0:10:15.476 --> 0:10:18.956 work in the Sahel. You could argue that some of 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:24.356 the challenges problems war in Syria has some of its 0:10:24.396 --> 0:10:27.196 origins in the drought in the northwest of the country 0:10:27.236 --> 0:10:29.156 that led to a large part of the population being 0:10:29.236 --> 0:10:31.836 driven to the cities in twenty eight, nine and ten. 0:10:32.236 --> 0:10:35.756 But there's the clue. Most people who are directly affected 0:10:35.796 --> 0:10:38.316 by climate change remain within their own country. So they're 0:10:38.316 --> 0:10:40.516 not refugees in that sense. They're not people who have 0:10:40.596 --> 0:10:42.596 left their own country and gone to a neighboring country. 0:10:42.676 --> 0:10:45.556 They are what we would call, I suppose climate IDPs, 0:10:45.596 --> 0:10:48.836 climate internally displaced people. And so if you think about Banglad, 0:10:48.836 --> 0:10:51.316 there should low lying country in the south it's likely 0:10:51.316 --> 0:10:53.916 that at the moment, the direct impact of climate change 0:10:53.956 --> 0:10:56.276 is for people to move within their own country. There's 0:10:56.316 --> 0:10:59.436 a wrinkle to this though, which is important, which is 0:10:59.436 --> 0:11:05.276 there's no question that climate stress prompted by climate change. 0:11:05.276 --> 0:11:09.516 Resource stress prompted by climate change is a multiple player 0:11:09.636 --> 0:11:15.596 for conflict. It drives conflict, and so indirectly climate change 0:11:15.596 --> 0:11:17.396 may be contributing to refugee flow. Just to give you 0:11:17.436 --> 0:11:19.356 an example, if you think about what's happening in the 0:11:19.436 --> 0:11:24.756 Lake Chad, based in northeastern Nigeria, Chad, Cameroon, Niger, there's 0:11:24.756 --> 0:11:28.116 a range of factors that explain the large flows of people. 0:11:28.156 --> 0:11:32.436 They're both within countries in between them Bakaharam but included. 0:11:33.156 --> 0:11:37.476 But there there's a massive climate induced problem of resource stress. 0:11:37.516 --> 0:11:40.436 So that's a slightly long arm. Apologize for the longer answer, 0:11:40.516 --> 0:11:44.516 but beware just saying there are climate refugees today, but 0:11:44.636 --> 0:11:47.676 you're warning that climate change is going to be a 0:11:47.796 --> 0:11:50.316 driver of people movement in the future is undoubtedly right. 0:11:50.356 --> 0:11:53.076 It's an underlying condition. David. I know you have a 0:11:53.116 --> 0:11:55.676 sense of optimism about this problem, and I wonder what 0:11:55.796 --> 0:12:01.036 you're solvable is around refugees. My solvable is that refugees 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:06.836 and displaced people should have poverty rates, inequality rates, lack 0:12:06.876 --> 0:12:10.676 of opportunity no greater than the rest of the population 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:13.836 at the moment. If you're a refugee, if you're an 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:19.796 internally displaced person, it's the fastest route to extreme poverty. 0:12:19.796 --> 0:12:21.756 If you look at all the statistics, whether of Syrian 0:12:21.796 --> 0:12:24.236 refugees who are relatively middle class in Syria, who are 0:12:24.276 --> 0:12:28.556 now in Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, even who those would come 0:12:28.556 --> 0:12:32.516 to Germany. If you look at much poorer refugees, for 0:12:32.556 --> 0:12:36.276 example Rhinga Muslims who've been driven out of Burma, Me 0:12:36.396 --> 0:12:40.756 and Mah now in Bangladesh, poverty rates are much higher 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:44.796 than international averages, levels of abuse of women and girls 0:12:44.916 --> 0:12:47.836 much higher, early marriage much higher. And to what I 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:52.036 would like to argue is that it's well within our 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:58.676 power to ensure that the poverty, inequality rates, the oppression 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:01.436 that people feel as refugees and displace people should be 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:04.156 no higher than our performance for the rest of the population. 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:06.156 How long do you think it would take us to 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:08.236 get there, and what do you think it would take 0:13:08.276 --> 0:13:09.956 for us to get there? Well, let me start with 0:13:09.996 --> 0:13:12.556 what it would take, because the first part of your 0:13:12.636 --> 0:13:15.076 question how long it will take is about the politics, 0:13:15.076 --> 0:13:18.676 because the truth is the policy problem is not the 0:13:18.676 --> 0:13:21.756 biggest one as in Einstein's day, the problem is a 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:25.876 political one more than it is a policy problem. Really, 0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:28.876 there are four parts of this part one, what's the 0:13:28.916 --> 0:13:33.316 first thing that a refugee or a displaced person needs 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:35.196 when they've left their own country or left their own home. 0:13:35.396 --> 0:13:38.476 They need cash. They need that. They're likely to be 0:13:38.516 --> 0:13:42.676 in an urban environment rather than a rather than a 0:13:42.716 --> 0:13:46.956 camp environment, and so they need cash support either not 0:13:46.956 --> 0:13:49.956 necessarily literally dollars in their hand, but they need cash support. 0:13:50.036 --> 0:13:52.756 We know from our own research how much impact this 0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:54.956 has on their life chances, on the ability of their 0:13:55.036 --> 0:13:56.956 kids to go to school rather than be out at work, 0:13:57.276 --> 0:14:00.556 actually including reductions in levels of violence within the home. 0:14:00.676 --> 0:14:02.676 So the first thing they need is cash, and we 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:04.236 know how to deliver it. We know how to deliver 0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:06.276 it in electronic form, and we know how to deliver 0:14:06.356 --> 0:14:12.796 it in cash form. Cash transfer an increasingly influential idea 0:14:12.916 --> 0:14:16.876 in international aide. Generally, they were more influential Jacob, because 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:19.836 there's only my figures are something like only six or 0:14:19.876 --> 0:14:22.476 eight percent of the global humanitarian budget goes in cash 0:14:22.476 --> 0:14:26.196 at the moment at the Internatal Rescue Committee were high. 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:30.436 We're probably three times that, but it's not yet enough. 0:14:30.596 --> 0:14:33.876 The default option we say in every you know, we've 0:14:33.916 --> 0:14:38.556 got thirteen thousand staff members and fifteen thousand volunteers in 0:14:38.596 --> 0:14:41.436 one hundred and ninety field sides in forty countries. The 0:14:41.476 --> 0:14:43.796 first thing we ask before we do any program is 0:14:43.796 --> 0:14:48.556 why not cash before food, before anything else? Why not 0:14:48.636 --> 0:14:51.276 cash because actually it's got the evidence base to show 0:14:51.276 --> 0:14:53.556 it has the biggest impact. People know their own needs 0:14:53.596 --> 0:14:56.276 better than anyone from the outside, especially if you give 0:14:56.276 --> 0:15:01.356 it to women, heads of women in the household. Second 0:15:02.276 --> 0:15:07.516 thing is employment for refugee adults. We know from Uganda 0:15:07.636 --> 0:15:11.596 interesting test case which has the most progressive policy towards 0:15:11.676 --> 0:15:15.476 empowering and encouraging refugees into work, that if you allow 0:15:15.516 --> 0:15:17.956 refugees to work, they set up businesses, they become employees. 0:15:18.236 --> 0:15:21.876 In a study in Kamparla in twenty fourteen, ninety plus 0:15:21.956 --> 0:15:25.396 percent of the refugees in the country were off international 0:15:25.396 --> 0:15:28.156 aid because they were able to work, support themselves contribute 0:15:28.156 --> 0:15:33.796 to the local economy. Both cash and employment reduce the 0:15:34.116 --> 0:15:36.676 tension between refugees and the host population, so there's a 0:15:36.716 --> 0:15:40.876 secondary benefit. Now it's important to say. You can't just 0:15:40.876 --> 0:15:42.556 say we want refugees to have a right to work, 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:44.236 that's the end of the story. Because the countries that 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:48.636 refugees are in are generally poor or lower middle income countries. 0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:54.756 They are Ethiopia, Uganda, Bangladesh, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, these countries 0:15:54.756 --> 0:15:56.996 with their own problems. These are countries that have got 0:15:57.036 --> 0:16:00.356 unemployment in Jordan twenty six I think unemployment rate among 0:16:00.396 --> 0:16:03.076 its own population. And so the only way to make 0:16:03.116 --> 0:16:08.476 the employment question solvable for the refuge population if you say, look, 0:16:08.516 --> 0:16:11.836 there's a big macroeconomic bargain to be done with refugee 0:16:11.916 --> 0:16:16.436 hosting states. You're delivering a global public good. The International 0:16:16.476 --> 0:16:18.676 Community is a World bank which has rewritten its mandate 0:16:18.716 --> 0:16:21.476 to allow this. The IMF, We're going to really support 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:24.156 the macroeconomy of countries that are delivering on this global 0:16:24.156 --> 0:16:26.556 public good to make it possible for those governments to 0:16:26.596 --> 0:16:28.716 say to their own people, look, we're not just taking 0:16:28.756 --> 0:16:30.916 care of the refugees, we're taking care of you as well. Yeah, 0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:33.796 so give refugees money, allow them to work. Yeah, what's next. 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:37.756 Third half of refuges and displays people are children, Yet 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:42.636 two percent of the global humanitarian budget goes on education, 0:16:43.356 --> 0:16:50.756 which is obviously strategically geostrategically stupid as well as morally reprehensible. 0:16:51.396 --> 0:16:53.756 We're talking about education for kids who are not in 0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:55.956 the middle of war zones. If it's a funding and 0:16:56.196 --> 0:17:00.316 organization challenge to get the right balance of expanding the 0:17:00.316 --> 0:17:02.916 mainstream schooling system so that kids can go to school, 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:07.396 and expanding community based education where there are facilities, And 0:17:07.396 --> 0:17:09.396 just so you get a sense of the problem, fifty 0:17:09.396 --> 0:17:12.596 percent of refugee kids at primary school age have no 0:17:12.756 --> 0:17:15.716 education at all. Seventy five percent of refugee kids of 0:17:15.716 --> 0:17:18.636 secondary school age have no education at all. And that 0:17:18.796 --> 0:17:21.036 is not an unsolvable problem. We know how to deliver education, 0:17:21.156 --> 0:17:23.076 but we also know, and I think this is important, 0:17:23.396 --> 0:17:26.116 it's not just a matter of quantity shoving kids into 0:17:26.276 --> 0:17:29.316 doubling the size of classes. We know that kids who've 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:34.236 been through trauma need special help to access education. We've 0:17:34.476 --> 0:17:36.596 we call it healing classrooms. You've got to make sure 0:17:36.596 --> 0:17:38.876 that you're attending to the right quality of education, the 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:43.076 right support, sometimes the right language training and support. So 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:45.716 the third element of the solvable puzzle, if you like, 0:17:45.916 --> 0:17:48.756 is to just take education seriously and not pretend, not 0:17:49.396 --> 0:17:51.636 succumb to the fiction that we don't need to do 0:17:51.756 --> 0:17:54.236 education because these refugees are going back home soon. They're 0:17:54.236 --> 0:17:56.516 not less than three percent of the world's refugees went 0:17:56.556 --> 0:18:01.236 home last year. The fourth element is not the most 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:03.996 important in numerical terms, but it is important, and it's 0:18:03.996 --> 0:18:08.356 difficult politically, and that is that countries that are not 0:18:08.476 --> 0:18:10.956 in the front line of the refugee crisis, countries like 0:18:10.996 --> 0:18:13.596 the United States where we're meeting Western European countries, but 0:18:13.676 --> 0:18:16.596 also advanced countries elsewhere in the world, and the Gulf, 0:18:16.676 --> 0:18:19.716 in China, Japan, you, you name it, they've got to 0:18:19.756 --> 0:18:23.756 be willing to take refugees as resettled refugees, and the 0:18:23.876 --> 0:18:27.276 UN identifies resettlement in other words, the planned transfer of 0:18:27.356 --> 0:18:30.796 refugee from their own region to somewhere else in the 0:18:30.796 --> 0:18:33.596 world that can support them as being right for the 0:18:33.596 --> 0:18:35.876 most vulnerable, those who are for special medical needs, who 0:18:35.876 --> 0:18:39.036 are victims of torture. Historically, the US has led on this. 0:18:39.756 --> 0:18:41.996 We haven't used many numbers interesting enough so far in 0:18:41.996 --> 0:18:43.916 this conversation, but just so people get a sense of it, 0:18:43.956 --> 0:18:45.516 there are twenty eight and a half million refugees and 0:18:45.516 --> 0:18:47.716 asylum seekers in the world today, and there are forty 0:18:47.756 --> 0:18:51.036 million internally displaced people. The UN says between five and 0:18:51.076 --> 0:18:55.236 eight percent should qualify as the most vulnerable should be resettled, 0:18:55.836 --> 0:18:59.156 and that is an area where the America historically has taken. 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:01.836 The average has been ninety thousand a year. Interesting. If 0:19:01.836 --> 0:19:05.516 I ask you which president admitted the most refugees, you 0:19:05.596 --> 0:19:09.476 probably know, do you know in ever in American? Yeah, 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:11.116 there's a smile on my face because it's not the obvious, 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:13.316 it's not the obvious most liberal one. Oh yeah, it's 0:19:13.316 --> 0:19:17.756 going to be Herbert Hoover. No. No, Reagan are admitted 0:19:17.796 --> 0:19:20.676 more two hundred thousand plus refugees in eighteen eighty two. 0:19:20.756 --> 0:19:22.876 More refugees are admitted by role right. So there's no 0:19:22.916 --> 0:19:25.516 reason this has to be a quote unquote left wing thing. 0:19:26.156 --> 0:19:28.156 But he had a very clear view that people who 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:31.876 are fleeing persecution, or in the case of Vietnamese refugees, 0:19:31.916 --> 0:19:34.236 people to whom America owed a debt it should be 0:19:34.276 --> 0:19:36.316 allowed to come to America. I would argue it's an 0:19:36.436 --> 0:19:40.676 essential part of the policy package, but also the political 0:19:40.756 --> 0:19:45.796 package that refugee slots are opened up for refugees to 0:19:45.836 --> 0:19:48.396 come to countries like the US and make a success 0:19:48.396 --> 0:19:49.836 of their lives, and actually all the evidence is that 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:53.716 they do. But their net taxpayers, they're not a security risk. 0:19:53.836 --> 0:19:56.236 Was they get vetted to the gills before they are 0:19:56.236 --> 0:19:59.076 allowed in. They actually we even did a study they 0:19:59.196 --> 0:20:01.916 pay back their car loans at a higher rate than 0:20:01.916 --> 0:20:06.196 the American population. At the ultimate piece of Americana is 0:20:06.196 --> 0:20:08.956 to play back your car loss, your second car line. 0:20:09.956 --> 0:20:11.916 So that's the fourth part of the the back. So my 0:20:12.036 --> 0:20:16.836 argument is, this is the proposition that refugees, neet and 0:20:16.876 --> 0:20:20.916 displace people need be no more afflicted by poverty and 0:20:20.916 --> 0:20:24.236 inequality than the rest of the global population is a lot. 0:20:24.356 --> 0:20:26.316 If you do those four things, you'll get a long 0:20:26.356 --> 0:20:29.356 way towards achieving the goal that we've said. Now, you're, 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:34.036 of course continuing to drive distinction between refugees and economic 0:20:34.156 --> 0:20:39.156 migrants in many countries in the developed world that is 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:42.556 not so clear a distinction. Why is it important to 0:20:42.556 --> 0:20:44.836 maintain It's a great point. I mean, it's it's important 0:20:44.836 --> 0:20:47.436 to maintain it in crude terms, and then we can 0:20:47.476 --> 0:20:49.596 come onto them subtleties and crude terms. There is a 0:20:49.636 --> 0:20:55.036 difference between the girl who is threatened with kidnap by 0:20:55.116 --> 0:21:00.116 Bucoharam in Northeast Nigeria. The family who are threatened by 0:21:00.156 --> 0:21:03.436 sheer death squads in Iraq because they've worked had a 0:21:03.516 --> 0:21:05.996 relative who worked for the American diplomats or the military. 0:21:05.996 --> 0:21:08.876 There's a difference between them and somewhat people who are 0:21:08.876 --> 0:21:13.236 fleeing for their lives and someone who is poor but 0:21:13.316 --> 0:21:16.116 wants a better life. There's a difference. I would argue. 0:21:16.116 --> 0:21:18.556 There's obviously a difference legally in international law, because the 0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:21.316 first group has rights in international law, above all, the 0:21:21.396 --> 0:21:25.076 right not to be sent back that the immigrant doesn't have. 0:21:25.276 --> 0:21:29.076 But I would argue there's also a moral difference. It's 0:21:29.116 --> 0:21:30.476 not that one is good and the other is bad. 0:21:30.516 --> 0:21:32.716 It's not. That's not the point I'm making. But the 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:36.356 moral responsibility on a state that is receiving a refugee 0:21:36.356 --> 0:21:39.796 is different from an asylum claim. It's different from the 0:21:39.836 --> 0:21:42.436 moral claim on a country that is receiving a would 0:21:42.476 --> 0:21:47.236 be immigrant. In between those two polar opposites, there are 0:21:47.676 --> 0:21:50.596 many shades of gray. And you can argue, well, you know, 0:21:50.636 --> 0:21:56.356 if someone's farm is no longer farmable because of climate change, 0:21:56.396 --> 0:21:59.996 are they forced from their home? You know someone who's 0:21:59.996 --> 0:22:04.156 someone's If there's famine in South Sudan and they flee, 0:22:05.356 --> 0:22:07.676 then you can see that there are gray areas because 0:22:07.676 --> 0:22:09.876 the definition of a refugee is worth saying. That is 0:22:09.876 --> 0:22:12.396 someone who has a quote unquote a well founded fear 0:22:12.436 --> 0:22:17.156 of persecution on grounds of race, sex, politics, ethnicity that 0:22:17.196 --> 0:22:20.236 has been interpreted over the last fifty years by the 0:22:20.276 --> 0:22:23.036 courts to mean someone for whom it's not safe for 0:22:23.036 --> 0:22:25.756 them to be sent home. One should hold fast to 0:22:25.916 --> 0:22:31.436 that distinction and that definition for two reasons, one of 0:22:31.436 --> 0:22:35.156 which is principled and one of which is purely pragmatic. 0:22:35.236 --> 0:22:39.076 The principal reason is that these are people who are 0:22:39.116 --> 0:22:41.156 in fear of their lives, and there should be a 0:22:41.196 --> 0:22:43.396 special quality of support for people who are in fear 0:22:43.436 --> 0:22:46.436 of their lives. The second pragmatic reason is that the 0:22:46.476 --> 0:22:50.316 politics of changing international law, on getting one hundred and 0:22:50.396 --> 0:22:54.236 ninety three countries to rewrite international law, A, it would 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:56.596 never be achieved, and b if it was achieved, it 0:22:56.636 --> 0:22:59.396 would lead to a diminution of rights of refugees, which 0:22:59.436 --> 0:23:02.316 is neither good for refugees nor for immigrants. So, notwithstanding 0:23:02.356 --> 0:23:05.516 all the gray areas and the difficulties, I think an 0:23:05.516 --> 0:23:08.916 immigration policy is different from a refugee policy, so we 0:23:09.236 --> 0:23:13.876 think that refugees can in the future suffer from poverty 0:23:13.956 --> 0:23:17.916 to no greater degree than non refugees. Putting on your 0:23:18.116 --> 0:23:21.156 hat as a political analyst, you were the foreign Minister 0:23:21.276 --> 0:23:24.596 of the UK, how long will that take? We talked 0:23:24.596 --> 0:23:27.996 about some of the political obstacles, but being both optimistic 0:23:28.036 --> 0:23:30.676 and realistic, I mean, the problem is getting worse, not better. 0:23:30.676 --> 0:23:34.916 At the moment. The gap between needs and provision across 0:23:34.956 --> 0:23:38.876 the four indices or the four interventions that I've described, 0:23:38.916 --> 0:23:43.436 that the gap is growing, not diminishing. And I don't 0:23:43.436 --> 0:23:45.836