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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. I have

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Speaker 1: been so deep into this story out of the Bath Does, Mike.

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Speaker 1: Have you been following this?

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Speaker 2: I admit that I was not until you brought it

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Speaker 2: to my attention, and then it's been like a pretty

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Speaker 2: steady stream of updates from you. And the Bath Does

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Speaker 2: are not something that I've ever paid attention to in

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Speaker 2: the past, but this story, like it has gotten to me,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, I am now following this pretty closely.

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Speaker 1: I feel you're under selling how much I have been

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Speaker 1: updating you on a story that you were like, I

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Speaker 1: didn't see it. I'm not really familiar with what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. I just came back from on Air Festival

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Speaker 1: in New York, which is a podcast conference, and as

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Speaker 1: you and I were, TECH had been texting previously before

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Speaker 1: my flight about the show and the plan for the

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Speaker 1: show while I was traveling. My fight was very early

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Speaker 1: in the morning. I'm in the plane on the tarmac

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Speaker 1: at like five point thirty in the morning, and right

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Speaker 1: before we take off, I text you, BAFT does update

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Speaker 1: the President of the Baptist is Prince William.

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Speaker 2: How deep does this thing go? At a certain point,

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Speaker 2: I just had to like get on board, right, like

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Speaker 2: the updates were going to keep coming, so uh yes,

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Speaker 2: I just like got on board and it's it's like

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Speaker 2: quite a story.

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Speaker 1: So for folks who missed it somehow. John Davidson is

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Speaker 1: a Scottish Turet syndrome activist and the real life inspiration

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Speaker 1: for this movie I Swear. I Swear is this movie

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Speaker 1: that is a fictionalized version of his real life experiences

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Speaker 1: as somebody with Turett's. He was there at the baft Does,

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Speaker 1: which you can sort of think of as like the

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Speaker 1: British Oscars to celebrate this film. Davidson has a particular

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Speaker 1: type of Turets called coprolalia, which involves the involuntary use

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Speaker 1: of obscene or offensive language. A lot of depictions of

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Speaker 1: turets in media focuses on this specific kind, even though

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Speaker 1: this symptom only atfexts ten to thirty percent of people

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Speaker 1: with the condition and it's not a criterion for diagnosis. Now, importantly,

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Speaker 1: these tics are involuntary. People with this condition are not

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Speaker 1: in control of them. So while the cast of Sinners.

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Speaker 1: Delroy Lindo and Michael B. Johnson were on stage at

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Speaker 1: the bath as presenting an award. Davidson had one of

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Speaker 1: these uncontrollable tics and screamed out the N word twice.

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Speaker 1: Delroy Lindo and Michael B. Johnson are black. They were

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Speaker 1: there celebrating the film Sinners, which is historic in the

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Speaker 1: way that it has been nominated for awards and really

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Speaker 1: is just a phenomenal police of black art. So there

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Speaker 1: is video of this happening that was circulating on social media.

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Speaker 1: It's horrible. There's no other way to put it. You

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Speaker 1: can see Michael B. Jordan and Lindo's faces drop and

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Speaker 1: they're clearly it's it's just a tough moment. Sinner's production

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Speaker 1: designer Hannah Beechler, a black woman, said the same thing

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Speaker 1: happened to her backstage, but it was not televised. Side note.

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Speaker 1: Google even had to apologize after a news alert about

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Speaker 1: what happened actually used the N words spelled it out

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Speaker 1: in the news alert. Google sent out a push notification

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Speaker 1: linking to a Hollywood Reporter article about the situation, which

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Speaker 1: had the headline how the turrets falled out unfolded at

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Speaker 1: the baft of Film Awards. The alert that invited people

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Speaker 1: to see more on N word, but it spelled out

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Speaker 1: the actual word. So yeah, no bueno, not great, not great.

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Speaker 2: That is pretty wild that that happened. Like, I don't

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Speaker 2: it's this is just like a side digression from like

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Speaker 2: the main story. But it's like amazing that Google would

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Speaker 2: do that, you know, like it's Google. You would think

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Speaker 2: they would have a list of words that they weren't

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Speaker 2: gonna print. It's it. It's like an interesting story in itself,

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Speaker 2: but it's a side story. So back to the main story.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the Google thing reminds me of a much lighter

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Speaker 1: and brighter day on social media, which was the day

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Speaker 1: that Yahoo tweeted about the N word navy. They were

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Speaker 1: trying to say bigger navy, but they slipped an inn

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Speaker 1: in there, And if you were on wood, that was

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Speaker 1: like a og black Twitter day. That was probably my

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Speaker 1: I don't think it happened while I was at work.

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Speaker 1: I don't think a single liquor work got done that day.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're also burying the lead of like the

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Speaker 2: headline was Obama wants a.

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Speaker 1: And then the headline they were trying to say was

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Speaker 1: Obama wants a bigger navy, and instead of a B,

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Speaker 1: they used an N. And the whole Black Internet just

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Speaker 1: was cutting up that day, and it was it was

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Speaker 1: hilarious about the Baptist situation. I went through a real

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Speaker 1: evolution on this, as I feel like I kind of

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Speaker 1: took you along on my evolution in the passenger seat.

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Speaker 1: I did not love a lot of the reaction to

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Speaker 1: what happened online. I had to do my own looking

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Speaker 1: into this, and something that I learned that I did

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Speaker 1: not know is that coke prolalia is not just the

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Speaker 1: involuntary shouting of random swears. The brain actually gives you

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Speaker 1: a sense of what the absolute worst thing to contextually

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Speaker 1: say in any given moment would be to say, and

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Speaker 1: then that's what the tick can be. And so it's

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Speaker 1: not just random swears. It's the absolute worst thing that

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Speaker 1: you could say in any given situation that could be

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Speaker 1: the tick. That was new information to me, and it

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Speaker 1: does it is hard not to mention just incorrect. To

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Speaker 1: see people say, oh, well, this person meant what they said.

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Speaker 1: I have seen some of that reaction. To be clear,

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Speaker 1: it is not as if having this condition means that

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Speaker 1: a person can't also be racist. Or an asshole on

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Speaker 1: top of it. But someone's ticks are not representative of

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Speaker 1: how they actually feel, and that's just the bottom line.

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Speaker 1: That's all there is to it. So I really feel

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Speaker 1: for Davidson that people are essentially saying that he must

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Speaker 1: be a racist because of this tick. So that's one

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Speaker 1: piece of it that I think is important to sort

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Speaker 1: of ground the conversation in the other piece of it

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Speaker 1: is that I think some of the big reactions that

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Speaker 1: this sparked is really just a function of the baseline

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Speaker 1: difficulty of being a black person, let alone a black creative,

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Speaker 1: when you have to endure so much disrespect in a

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Speaker 1: field where you're already marginalized and treated as less than

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Speaker 1: you know. Delroy Lindo, who is in Sinners, I saw

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Speaker 1: a video from a different red carpet earlier this month

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Speaker 1: where he was being interviewed on a red carpet, and

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Speaker 1: the person interviewing him essentially said, how does it feel

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Speaker 1: to be older and be having this newfound success in

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Speaker 1: Hollywood with Sinners? And anybody who knows anything about black

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Speaker 1: film will tell you that Delroy Lindo has had a

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Speaker 1: decade long career. He is one of our Elders. I

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Speaker 1: first saw Delroy Lindo as the father in the Spike

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Speaker 1: Lee movie Crooklyn, which it's a Spike Lee film that

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Speaker 1: does not get the celebration that it should because it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's like one of my favorite movies, probably my favorite

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Speaker 1: Spike Lee film, which is saying a lot. He was

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Speaker 1: in that movie in like nineteen ninety four, right, So saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: you five, you're new in Hollywood just shows you don't

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Speaker 1: know who I am, because you don't you are. You

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Speaker 1: are doing a Red Harvard interview and you've not bothered

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Speaker 1: to learn the history of the black talent that you're

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Speaker 1: going to be interviewing, which is disrespectful. So I think

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Speaker 1: that it's just a sensitive issue. On top of it

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Speaker 1: being a super sem and delicate time. There are just

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Speaker 1: so many pain points for our community right now. I

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Speaker 1: think that is why we are seeing such a reaction,

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Speaker 1: And so I really don't like a lot of the

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Speaker 1: reaction that I've seen that basically suggests that black folks

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Speaker 1: are sort of overreacting to the impact of what happened,

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Speaker 1: because I simply cannot express to you how mortifying this

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Speaker 1: must have been for the Sinner's team, and I just

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Speaker 1: don't accept the reaction that says, oh, black people have

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Speaker 1: to be okay with hearing slurs at a ceremony, because

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Speaker 1: ultimately that's not fair to the black talent that's there,

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Speaker 1: and it's not fair to Davidson either, because I don't

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Speaker 1: believe that in that's not inclusion.

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Speaker 3: To me.

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Speaker 1: I think it is great that Davidson was included in

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Speaker 1: this event, but you know that's saying you know, diversity

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Speaker 1: is being invited to a dance. Inclusion is being asked

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Speaker 1: to dance at that dance. I feel like the Baftis

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Speaker 1: invited him to a dance and then did not dance

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Speaker 1: with him. And real inclusion does not pit different marginalized

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Speaker 1: groups as needs against each other. And the thing is,

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Speaker 1: ultimately it does not have to be this way, and

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Speaker 1: who made it that way. It was not Davidson, because

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Speaker 1: Davidson has a condition where he is not in control

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Speaker 1: of the ticks. It's obviously not that Sinners cast. It's

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Speaker 1: the Baftis and it's the BBC, the company that aired

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Speaker 1: the Baptist. That is who we should be angry at.

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Speaker 1: That is who let everybody in that room down, because

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Speaker 1: this was an institutional failure of the highest level, and

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Speaker 1: I think people should be fired. I cannot believe that

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Speaker 1: we are not seeing, you know, groveling fucking apologies on

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Speaker 1: television for this monumental failure to the point where I mean,

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Speaker 1: it might sound like a conspiracy theory, and I have

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Speaker 1: no inside and information. I've just done a lot of

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Speaker 1: reading about what happened here, and I might be wrong,

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Speaker 1: and if I'm wrong, I will eat my words. I

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Speaker 1: think the Baptist set Davidson up. I think this was

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Speaker 1: you were actually the one that kind of called this.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I would say I was giving

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Speaker 1: him the benefit of the doubt. I thought maybe they

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Speaker 1: the BAFTAs were trying super hard to include Davidson and

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Speaker 1: were making the mistake of saying the way that we

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Speaker 1: include Davidson is just to invite him and have no

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Speaker 1: other support mechanisms in place for whatever whatever that might

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Speaker 1: result in. You were like, I wonder if this was

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Speaker 1: intentional to get eyeballs and attention, and I thought, that's

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Speaker 1: that couldn't possibly be. You've made us truth through out

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Speaker 1: of me. I believe that this was intentional.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know. Again, I didn't know anything about the

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Speaker 2: baft does the the people who are producing this, but

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Speaker 2: just like the fact that are reported in newspapers paint

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Speaker 2: a pretty damning portrait.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. So here's what we know. We

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Speaker 1: know that the Baptis warned the audience that they might

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Speaker 1: hear outbursts per variety. Prior to the start of the ceremony.

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Speaker 1: Floor managers warned guests and attendees sitting around david'son of

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Speaker 1: his condition, without specifying what kinds of outbursts they may hear.

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Speaker 1: According to multiple sources, none of the nominees or attendees

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Speaker 1: were contacted by BAFTA or the BBC ahead of the

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Speaker 1: show with any such warnings. So they get you in

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Speaker 1: the audience they say, hey, just FYI, you might hear

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Speaker 1: some outbursts. It's interesting to me that you know so

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Speaker 1: much prior planning goes into these award ceremonies. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: that the first time these attendees are hearing about it

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Speaker 1: is in the audience with David's in there. One.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's worth like highlating is just the

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Speaker 2: amount of planning that goes into a production like this,

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Speaker 2: Like this is a ballroom full of a list celebrities

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Speaker 2: being recorded for an international primetime broadcast, Like, this isn't

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Speaker 2: neighborhood theater.

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Speaker 1: This is not your daughter's junior high performance of Greece. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the bastest. This is big time.

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Speaker 2: This is big time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that way there suggests that, of course there are

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Speaker 2: gonna be a lot of people planning, thinking about all

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Speaker 2: aspects of the production, right, Like, there's probably dozens, maybe

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Speaker 2: over one hundred people whose job was coordinating the production

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Speaker 2: of this thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so it gets so much worse. In a profile

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Speaker 1: for a Variety immediately following this incident, Davidson reveals that

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Speaker 1: the baf DOES and the BBC essentially gave him the

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Speaker 1: impression that any ticks would not be heard by the

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Speaker 1: people on stage. He was set forty rows back from

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Speaker 1: the stage, and initially he did not even realize that

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Speaker 1: people on stage could hear him. He says that he

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Speaker 1: was also given the impression that any of his tics

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Speaker 1: would be cut out from the broadcast because it's on

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Speaker 1: a tape delay. He said that he has worked with

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Speaker 1: BBC a lot in the past or super familiar with

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Speaker 1: what his tics can sound like. In that Variety profile,

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Speaker 1: he says Studio Canal, the production company that made the

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Speaker 1: film he was there to celebrate, had worked closely with BAFTA,

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Speaker 1: and BAFTA had made us all aware that any swearing

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Speaker 1: would be edited out of the broadcast. I have made

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Speaker 1: four documentaries with the BBC in the past and feel

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Speaker 1: that they should have been aware of what to expect

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Speaker 1: from Thurette's and worked harder to prevent anything that I said,

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Speaker 1: which after all, was some forty rows back from the

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Speaker 1: stage from being included in the broadcast.

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Speaker 2: Now we know that wasn't done everything up to this point,

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Speaker 2: you can be like, well, okay, you know a mistake

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Speaker 2: were made.

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Speaker 1: Here's where I lost it, he says. Forty rows back

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Speaker 1: from the stage, the baptist put a microphone in front

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Speaker 1: of him. The profile reads, as I reflect on the auditorium,

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Speaker 1: I remember there was a microphone just in front of me,

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Speaker 1: and with hindsight, I have to question whether this was wise,

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Speaker 1: so close to where I was seated, knowing I would tick.

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Speaker 2: It's so British like, I have to question if that

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Speaker 2: was wise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I yes, I don't think it was wise, question answered,

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Speaker 1: What the fuck?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: I agree, it seems pretty unwise really that was.

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Speaker 1: The point that made me think this. I do believe

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Speaker 1: this was intentional, you know. I asked around and someone

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Speaker 1: was like, the only thing I can maybe see is

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Speaker 1: maybe if they wanted to get audio of his area

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Speaker 1: specifically to tone match it later and in some sort

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Speaker 1: of like there's a there's a I don't I don't believe.

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Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I don't, I don't buy it.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like what would be the purpose, you know, like

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Speaker 2: maybe they want to capture audio of him for some

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Speaker 2: other purpose.

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Speaker 1: That the idea here, which I don't believe, is that

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Speaker 1: it might have been a room tone. So when when

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Speaker 1: we make the podcast, we will sit in silence to

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Speaker 1: get what's called room tone, which is the general sound

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Speaker 1: of the room, so that when you're editing later it

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Speaker 1: sounds more natural because you're you're able to swap in

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Speaker 1: what it actually sounded like that. I think that's what

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Speaker 1: they were getting at. Maybe they were doing it to

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Speaker 1: sort of for a later edit, but they didn't edit shit,

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Speaker 1: So then why did they even need room tone?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if and like if the idea is that

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Speaker 2: they have multiple microphones throughout the theater picked to like

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Speaker 2: get room tone. Why were those mixed into the main broadcast?

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Speaker 1: Hello, it doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: So the broadcast did cut some of his tics from

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Speaker 1: the broadcast. He apparently shouted pedophile at the Baptist host

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Speaker 1: Alan Cumming, and that tick was not included in the broadcast.

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Speaker 1: The broadcast also just made clear editorial decisions about things

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Speaker 1: that were cut and things that were left. In a canola,

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Speaker 1: Davies Junior said free Palestine during his speech after winning

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Speaker 1: Outstanding British Debut for My Father's Shadow. So this is

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Speaker 1: what was caught out of Davies's speech to the economic migrant,

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Speaker 1: to the conflict migrant, to those under occupation, dictatorship, persecution,

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Speaker 1: and those experience in genocide. You matter, Your stories matter

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Speaker 1: more than ever. Your dreams are an active resistance to

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Speaker 1: those watching at home. Archiveer loved ones, archive your stories yesterday,

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Speaker 1: today and forever, for Nigeria, for London, the Congo, Sudan,

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Speaker 1: Free Palestine. Had to cut that out of there. Who

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Speaker 1: would want that message in their broadcast of an award show?

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Speaker 1: So that was not acceptable to be heard. But the

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Speaker 1: N word being shouted that's fine. Make it make sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the only way it makes sense is

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Speaker 2: somebody made the active, deliberate decision that they were going

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Speaker 2: to keep it in. I would love to see evidence

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Speaker 2: that something else happened, but that's the only thing that

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Speaker 2: makes sense to me.

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Speaker 1: Paul Thomas Anderson one best director for one battle after another,

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Speaker 1: and part of his speech says, anyone that says movies

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Speaker 1: aren't any good anymore can just piss right off. They

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Speaker 1: bleeped piss out for social media in the clip that

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Speaker 1: was shared on both the BBC and baft to YouTube pages.

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Speaker 1: They removed that sentence entirely, so you can't piss off.

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Speaker 1: That is too strong of language to be included the

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Speaker 1: N word. Totally fine, Make it make sense again. I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of folks online were really focused on Davidson,

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Speaker 1: and I read a lot of interesting takes from black

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Speaker 1: folks with Tourette's. However, Davidson had had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with the editorial choices of the BAFTAs, like like I'm

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Speaker 1: that I am keeping my foot on the neck of

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Speaker 1: the Baptist and the BBC and I just have to

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Speaker 1: wonder what the hell happened here? And even more damning,

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Speaker 1: The Guardian reported that Warner Brothers, the studio behind Sinners,

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Speaker 1: said immediately after the slur was said that they requested

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Speaker 1: the bath that's edited out from the broadcast, which was

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Speaker 1: on a two hour delay. So given that, I do

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Speaker 1: believe that this was left in deliberately. Afterward, the BAFT

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Speaker 1: just put out a statement apologizing for the error, saying

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Speaker 1: that their production team didn't hear the slur because they

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Speaker 1: were quote working from a truck. Okay, make make sure.

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Speaker 1: I just don't believe this, And I mean, I I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I know, I sound like a conspiracy theorist.

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Speaker 1: I read. I've read takes that. Oh I did read

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Speaker 1: a take that initially I thought, oh, that's not true,

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Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, maybe they were doing this

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Speaker 1: to take the heat off of the news that Prince

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Speaker 1: Andrew was arrested in connection with the Epstein files, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, that's really silly. Then I did

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Speaker 1: find out that the president of the Baptist is Prince William,

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Speaker 1: so I was like, oh, interesting.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just saying just asking questions like so,

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Speaker 2: to me, that feels like a step into conspiracy territory, right,

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Speaker 2: because we don't have any evidence of that, but like

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Speaker 2: the idea that this was a deliberate decision to leave

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Speaker 2: it in that I think is supported by a fair

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Speaker 2: amount of evidence here. And I mean, we can only

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Speaker 2: wonder why maybe it was a conspiracy to like create

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Speaker 2: some news to distract from Prince Andrew, who's Epstein connections.

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Speaker 2: That seems a little complicated to me.

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I'm not endorsing that as

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Speaker 1: as what I think is going on. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to note that that is one of the things people

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Speaker 1: are saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think a much simpler explanation is

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Speaker 2: just they just wanted some controversy, you know, something that's

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Speaker 2: gonna generate buzz, generate engagement, and whoever made that decision

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Speaker 2: didn't care about who they had to throw under the

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Speaker 2: bus to get it, which in this case involves everyone involved, right,

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Speaker 2: involve the Sitters team and involved Davidson himself. And you know,

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Speaker 2: you make it a good point that people were Some

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Speaker 2: of the discourse online was focused on Davidson, the guy

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Speaker 2: who said the slur. First of all, yeah, he has

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Speaker 2: threats it was an involuntary thing. But even if that

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Speaker 2: weren't true, even if he was like a racist person

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Speaker 2: who wanted to say this slur. That's just like one guy.

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Speaker 2: The fact that the Bath does and the BBC, these

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Speaker 2: like massive institutions who have so much public trust, decided

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Speaker 2: to er it is such a bigger story. In my opinion.

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Speaker 1: Uh decided to er it, but thought the words piss off.

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Speaker 1: That language is too strong. Our audience cannot handle the

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Speaker 1: words piss off. Ban word is totally fine though, that's

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Speaker 1: all good. This may sound like a small thing, but

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Speaker 1: in that Variety profile he describes sort of the moment

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Speaker 1: of shame and horror and mortification of realizing that his

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Speaker 1: tics were being heard by the folks on stage. He says,

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Speaker 1: I was trying to calm myself down to breathe, but

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Speaker 1: ultimately I made the decision to leave to not cause

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Speaker 1: any more upset. BAFTA found a private room with a

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Speaker 1: monitor where I watched the rest of the awards. And

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Speaker 1: to me, that small thing reveals a lot, because as

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Speaker 1: we said, this is a huge production. Why was there

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Speaker 1: no support plan in place ahead of time? The fact

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Speaker 1: that there that they knew that there was a possibility

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Speaker 1: that he would experience ticks, and that the whole movie

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Speaker 1: that he says, the BBC's and the BAFTAs are so

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Speaker 1: aware of his story, they have worked together before. Is

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Speaker 1: that when this happens he experiences shame and mortification. The

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Speaker 1: fact that they did not have a plan in place

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Speaker 1: for what would happen if he experienced deep shame and

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Speaker 1: deep mortification while at this ceremony says a lot to me.

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Speaker 1: Why did they have to why did they have to

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Speaker 1: find a room? Why was there no plan in place,

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Speaker 1: a contingency plan. That's like, Okay, if you experience a

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Speaker 1: tick and it's you are feeling the things that we

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Speaker 1: are aware, you know, we know goes into it when

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Speaker 1: you experience these ticks, Here's what we're gonna do, Here's

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Speaker 1: where you're gonna go, Here's how we're gonna support you.

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Speaker 1: I just think it's a bullshit. I really think like

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Speaker 1: the BAFTAs have really done such a disservice to everybody

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Speaker 1: in that room. And yeah, I I this is not

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Speaker 1: how you support anybody. This is not how do you

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Speaker 1: support people that you've invited to be in community with

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Speaker 1: you at an award ceremony.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. If you organize a party, throw a party,

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Speaker 2: invite guests to come to your party, you have the

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Speaker 2: responsibility for making sure that it is a safe experience

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Speaker 2: for everybody there, and they really failed everybody involved. And

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Speaker 2: this guy was their VIP guest. Yeah, like imagine. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it just has to make you wonder about what sort

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Speaker 2: of care they would take for other people who were

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Speaker 2: not VIP guests.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I've never been to England. I was

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Speaker 1: watching this interesting take from a comedian who's from their

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Speaker 1: London Hughes, and she made the point that, listen, there

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00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: are just not enough black people in England for there

408
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Speaker 1: to be the same kind of outcry that you've seen

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Speaker 1: in the United States. There's a generation of black people

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Speaker 1: my age for whom Delroy Lindo is like a stand

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Speaker 1: in for our father, right or like like reminds us

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Speaker 1: of our father. I would have a hard time picking

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Speaker 1: another black another pair of black actors right now that

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Speaker 1: the black community has has more fondness for than Delroy

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Speaker 1: Lindo and Michael B. Jordan. I really I'm maybe Denzel Washington,

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Speaker 1: maybe Samuel L. Jackson, but like del Roy Lindo is ours,

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Speaker 1: we are not gonna forget this, right, And so London

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Speaker 1: was saying, how in England. They just have a different

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Speaker 1: vibe around these public moments of racism where they don't

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Speaker 1: really complain the same way. They're not as vocal the

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Speaker 1: same way. There's like a cultural attitude about sort of

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Speaker 1: stiff up her lip that we do our loud asses

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Speaker 1: in the United States do not share. And yeah, she was,

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Speaker 1: I hope that Black Americans stay on the Baptist net

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Speaker 1: about this and the BBC's neck about this. And I

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Speaker 1: can tell you one thing, this black American is going

427
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Speaker 1: to stay on the Baptist and the BBC's neck about

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Speaker 1: this because I need answers. I need to know who

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Speaker 1: is being fired. I need to know whether or not

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Speaker 1: the president of the Baptist Prince William will be stepping down.

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Speaker 1: I need to know who made this decision, how it happened,

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Speaker 1: what accountability looks like, how are they atoning, where are

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Speaker 1: they giving money? Like I need the action plan? And

434
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: I was like something else. Black folks are not gonna

435
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: let this go. It is Black History months. We have

436
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: a fascist in the White House who was like calling

437
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: black people all kinds of apes and monkeys. We're not

438
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: standing for this, and I think I don't see us

439
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: getting over this anytime soon, I know I won't be,

440
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: And truly, I just think that not only do black

441
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,239
Speaker 1: people deserve better, Michael B. Jordan deserves better, del Roy

442
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: Lindo deserves better, and a Beach Sword deserves better, the

443
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: entire Center's team deserves better. Every black person in that

444
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: audience watching at home deserves better, and Davidson deserves better.

445
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: The Turetz community deserves better. Like, it's such an institutional

446
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: failure that if they think we are stupid enough to

447
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 1: look at Davidson who is not in control of these

448
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: ticks and expect accountability from him and not them, if

449
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: they think that we're gonna fall forward just like throwing

450
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: him under the bus when he cannot control these tics,

451
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: they're wrong. And I'm really happy to see the sort

452
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: of conversation shift to the institutional failure that the bapt

453
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: DOES and the BBC are responsible for in.

454
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: This Well, speaking of institutional failures, what's new with Meta?

455
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 3: That was gonna be my transition.

456
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 2: You'll do it better?

457
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So I love when companies like Meta kind of

458
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: give away their game, which you know that about me?

459
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: Meta said that they have a plan to integrate facial

460
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,239
Speaker 1: recognition technology into their smart Classes. According to reporting from

461
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: The New York Times, Meta could add facial recognition technology

462
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: to smart glasses as early as this year. As is

463
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: the case with a lot of this kind of stuff,

464
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: even though it's like horribly invasive, dangerous surveillance technology, they

465
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: have to give it a cutesy name, and so their

466
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: cutesy internal name is name tag.

467
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 2: Oh, it's like you're being friendly at a mixer where

468
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: you don't know anybody name tag.

469
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: Yuck. Yeah, it's like how Ring camera their horrible facial

470
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: recognition technology. It's called search Party and it's only for

471
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: dogs and maybe some people, and then also all people

472
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: also all the people on top of it. So according

473
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: to The New York Times, it was like anybody who

474
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: owns metas smart classes identify people in the real world

475
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: instantly pulling up their information through metas ai Assistant. What's

476
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: even more troubling to me is that these documents show

477
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: that apparently the company had these plans to sort of

478
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: soften the public roll out by framing it as a

479
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: accessibility tool for the disabled community, the idea, which didn't

480
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: really materialize. It sounds like seem to involve debuting it

481
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: at a conference for blind users before releasing it more broadly,

482
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: essentially using the disabled community as a kind of pr shield, like, oh,

483
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: nobody can say this is fatial recognition technology. It's to

484
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: help visually impaired users. On we unveiled it at a

485
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: conference for people with visual impairment. Now they didn't actually

486
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: do this, but yeah, gools, yeah, god.

487
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: I love these stories about metaw where it's like, Okay,

488
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: we're rolling out this terrible, awful new feature that's gonna

489
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: like ruin everyone's lives. How can we also sneak in

490
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: some other harm to like just just screw over some

491
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: other unrelated community in the process, And how.

492
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: Can we spell all of this out in shocking detail

493
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: in a written document that will one point be part

494
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: of a New York Times EXPOSA. Hey, they love putting

495
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: this shit in writing. Will I love it? Never stop

496
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: love it? Please continue to write this shit in documents

497
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: so that I can read it later and be like,

498
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: oh my lord, that is incriminating.

499
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was unwise.

500
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: I think that's gonna be let's face that in as

501
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: a saying on the show. I think it might have

502
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: been on what its like, have these people ever heard

503
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: of a fucking phone call like, has it ever occurred

504
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: to anybody to be like, should we put the evil

505
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: plan in writing or should we just talk about it

506
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: face to face. So those same internal documents also show

507
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: that they had this plan. They knew that this was

508
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: going to be unpopular. They had this plan to roll

509
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: it out during moments of political turmoil. One of the

510
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: moments that they floated was when Trump started sending federal

511
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: immigration troops to cities. They were like, Oh, that could

512
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: have been a good time to roll this out because

513
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: the public will be too burnt out and distracted to

514
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: notice or care. When you are trying to roll out

515
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: of technology, you know it's going to be good when

516
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: you need to phase it in during a time where

517
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: people are distracted and won't notice. So we have already

518
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: talked about how this technology is already being used to

519
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: target women. Now, The Independent is reporting that domestic abuse

520
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: organizations like Women's Aid and Refuge are specifically warning that

521
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: this plan to add facial recognition technology is going to

522
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: put women at risk. They say that this technology poses

523
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: a direct and serious risk to survivors by placing them

524
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: in harm's way and enabling abusers to locate and track them. Which,

525
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: to be fair, I think is just common sense. I'm

526
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: glad these organizations are saying, hey, you know, who's not

527
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: gonna be real chill in this technology scenario. Survivors who

528
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: have been abused and women who are definitely going to

529
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: be harmed. I'm glad they're stepping up to say this.

530
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: But it's like kind of obvious to me that that

531
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: would be the case.

532
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an obvious one. And also, there's like so

533
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: many reasons why it would be bad to just have

534
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: everybody walking around with facial recognition cameras on their face,

535
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: just tracking everyone's movements all the time.

536
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: Without their consent. Right, These organizers say that it threatens

537
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: all of our safety, but especially the safety of women

538
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: and girls in public, by giving the wearers the ability

539
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: to access information about them without their consent. Like whatever

540
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: happened to us to some sort of consent based system.

541
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: When you're just out and about living your life, you're

542
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: not consenting to whoever looks at you to have any

543
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: kind of information about your whereabouts or who you are.

544
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: And you know, we talk a lot about consent and technology,

545
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: and this is just a very good example the fact

546
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: that these people don't give.

547
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: Us shit about consent, Yeah, you know, consent to be

548
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: identified and consent to have who knows what other information

549
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: shared with the people who are wearing these glasses, right,

550
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: because maybe the glasses just tell you the person's name,

551
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: but Meta sure knows a lot more information about everybody

552
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: than just their name, right, And like, is there going

553
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: to be a premium feature where you can pay a

554
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: subscription and just get like the full everything about a person,

555
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: what their relationship status is, who they're dating, what they're into,

556
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: what kind of videos they like, what kind of whine

557
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: they like to drink. Like, Meta knows so much about us,

558
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: you know. So there's the there's a lot of reason

559
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: to be concerned about the surveillance aspect of this, in

560
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 2: terms of having these cameras recording everybody. But there's also

561
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: I think a lot of reason to be concerned about, like, well,

562
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: what is it look like for the end user who

563
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: is viewing this information? What kind of information are they

564
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: going to get about people?

565
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm imagining what it looks like when Terminator two looks

566
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 1: at somebody and you know in the movie, when they

567
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: show it through like T two lens and it's all

568
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: this information in data and demographic stuff about people like

569
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: that's that's how I'm imagining it in my head. Let

570
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: me not give Mark Zuckerberg more horrible ideas for his

571
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: technologies by saying that some people are fighting back, though,

572
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: Because for four media first reported that there's this new

573
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: app called the Glasses Nearby App that is meant to

574
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: help people know when somebody is using metaglasses nearby. The

575
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: developer of the app, Eve's Genronaud, told for for I

576
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: consider it to be a tiny part of resistance against

577
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: surveillance technology.

578
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: That's an interesting app. We should look into that.

579
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't even think we need to pretend

580
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,719
Speaker 1: that we don't know how this is going to end

581
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: if Meta does this. One of the anti domestic violence

582
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: organizations that spoke to The Independent, it's quoted as saying,

583
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: time and time again, we see what happens when devices

584
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: go to market without proper consideration for how they might

585
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: be used to harm women and girls, adding that it

586
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: is unacceptable for women in girls' safety to be treated

587
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: as an afterthought. I mean, I don't think we if

588
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: they do this. And when you and I are on

589
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: the microphone talking about how the woman who was stalked

590
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: the woman who was killed, the woman who was harmed,

591
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: the woman who was exploited. Will I will cut this

592
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: audio and put it there, because we don't eat to

593
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: wonder or speculate how this is going to end. We

594
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: already know that these glasses are being used to film

595
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: women without their consent. Four or four also reported a

596
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: while back about how people use these glasses to record

597
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: women at massage parlors without their consent, and then that

598
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: footage was uploaded and used to advertised adult content. So again,

599
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: we already know how metaglasses are currently already being used.

600
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: Adding facial recognition technology is only going to make that worse.

601
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: And so yeah, these domestic violence organizations are openly saying

602
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: this is going to hurt women, and Meta is like,

603
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: we're fine with that if it makes us money. And

604
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: it's just another example of how the exploitation of women

605
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: and girls is a feature, not a bug to people

606
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: like this who are building technology.

607
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 3: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

608
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: This is not usually the kind of story that we

609
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: cover here, but I did want to just quickly talk

610
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: about what's happening with Anthropic and the Pentagon because to me,

611
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: it's a pretty big deal, and I just want to

612
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: make sure that it gets included in our conversation. So

613
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: Nthropic the makers of the very popular chatbot Claude. They

614
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: have kind of a reputation for being one of the

615
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: more safety minded big AI companies. I know that is

616
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: not saying a lot, especially when your competitors are helm

617
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: by folks like Elon Musk, who we know that his

618
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: AI is being used to post child sexual abuse material

619
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: all over the Internet, and folks like Mark Zuckerberg, who

620
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: we were just talking about. As entire dark digital empire

621
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: is premise on the idea that harming people is okay

622
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: if that makes money. In that landscape, it is pretty

623
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: easy to be considered kind of the safety minded one

624
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 1: of the group. And so I want to be clear

625
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: that I know but that is not saying much. But

626
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: that is the case for Aanthropic, right Mike.

627
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Their CEO does seem like a little

628
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,959
Speaker 2: bit of a different type of guy. They've really gone

629
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: out of their way to brand themselves as more safety

630
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: minded and also put in place, I think, procedures that

631
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: they follow with the development of their AI to make

632
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: it to ensure that it is more safe than what

633
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: we see from some of their competitors. Of course, earlier

634
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: this week they walk some of that back, you know,

635
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: but that's neither here nor there. Uh yeah, and it's

636
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: you know, it's super complicated with AI because all of

637
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: these systems burn tremendous amounts of energy and are prone

638
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: to like a lot of issues. Uh But all that said,

639
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I agree. I think you know, of the group,

640
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: Anthropic is known to sort of stand out as being

641
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: more concerned about safety.

642
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: Yes, and we're not. I want to be clear of that.

643
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: I don't think either of us is like endorsing Anthropic,

644
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: but just contextually that context is important to understand what's

645
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: going on. Anthropic also has I would say they're notable

646
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: for having more transparency around how its models work. A

647
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: lot of other AI companies are much more opake about this.

648
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: Anthropic has been more transparent, and I think that that

649
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: transparency is one of the reasons why Claude was the

650
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: first AI chatbot that the Pentagon adopted in its own systems,

651
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: including cases where it processes classified information. This was obviously

652
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: a major PR win for Anthropic as well as came

653
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: along with a pretty lucrative contract deal worth two hundred

654
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: million dollars, So that contract with the Department of Defense

655
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: is now in jeopardy because Secretary of Defense Pete Hegsas

656
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: says that he is unwilling to accept restrictions that Entthropic

657
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: has put in place over what it's AI can and

658
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: cannot be used for.

659
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: Now.

660
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: There are two specific restrictions that Nthropics CEO Dario Emodi

661
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: has insisted on. One is that Claude's AI cannot be

662
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: used for autonomous weapons systems, so basically no killer robots.

663
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: And this is important because we're really seeing more in more,

664
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: increasingly sophisticated and increasingly autonomous drones being used in military conflicts.

665
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: The second restriction is that Anthropic does not want its

666
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: AI to be used for mass surveillance against Americans. Now,

667
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but these seem like very

668
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: reasonable restrictions to me. If anything, they do not go

669
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: far enough. People in democracies should resist mass surveillance of

670
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: any kind. I think out of principle, regardless of citizenship,

671
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: and the prospect of AI systems making decisions about targeting

672
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: people with deadly force is just terrifying for multiple reasons,

673
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: not the least of all is the fact that we

674
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: know that AI is more likely to make mistakes when

675
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: people from marginalized backgrounds are involved. So yeah, pretty reasonable, too,

676
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: pretty reasonable restrictions from Anthropic. So Anthropic has drawn a

677
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: hard line against its AI being used for either of

678
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: those two applications. I think most people would agree.

679
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: Not.

680
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: Secretary Pete Hegseth, Secretary of Pete Hegseth, feels so strongly

681
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: about it that he is threatening to use the Defense

682
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: Production Act to force Anthropic to allow him to use

683
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: its AI for whatever he wants. The Defense Production Act

684
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: allows the government to take over industrial processes and goods

685
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: if it's necessary for national security, and Pete heagset is

686
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: arguing that it would be necessary for national security the

687
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: Defense Production Act. If that sounds familiar, it's because it

688
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: was most recently used during the initial years of the

689
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: COVID pandemic to ramp up production of medical supplies like

690
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: ventilators in Ppe. Now, Heset is saying that any restrictions

691
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: on what the Pentagon is allowed to do with Entthropics

692
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: products are a threat to national security, so he should

693
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: be allowed to seize those products if Anthropic will not

694
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: provide them willingly, and if he does, this would be

695
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: a pretty novel not to mention unsettling use of the

696
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: Defense Production Act. Talking to The Washington Post, a director

697
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: at the Center Forced Fatim and International Studies for Industrial

698
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: Base Issues named Jerry McGinn said that they weren't even

699
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: sure if that law had ever been used that way

700
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: in the past.

701
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hagsuth has been very open, including during his confirmation

702
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: hearings and his time on Fox News before that, that

703
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: he really views things like rules of engagement or any

704
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: other restrictions on military force as like woke nonsense. That

705
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: he doesn't have time for things is bad for America.

706
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: One of his first actions when he became the Secretary

707
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: of Defense was to fire a bunch of military lawyers

708
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: because he thought they were gonna get in his way

709
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: for doing things, which like prompted people to ask what

710
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: sort of things is he planning on doing? That having

711
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: lawyers around would be problematic. So that's just like his

712
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 2: baseline attitude. And it's not terribly surprising that he doesn't

713
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: like the idea of anthropics restrictions here.

714
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is not surprising. So the latest here is

715
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 1: that Pete Hegseth has given anthropic a deadline of five

716
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: pm on Friday, February twenty seventh. The dat i's this

717
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: episode comes out as of US recording this episode on

718
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: February twenty sixth, the evening before that deadline. Anthropic has

719
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 1: said that they are not going to cave. They put

720
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: out a statement saying using these systems for mass domestic

721
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: surveillance is incompatible with democratic values, and today frontier AI

722
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: systems are simply not reliable enough to power fully autonomous weapons.

723
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: These threats do not change our position. We cannot in

724
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: good conscious feed to their request. It seems like a

725
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: pretty big deal if the Trump administration is able to

726
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: essentially seize AI technology and control it in this way.

727
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: And again, really just it sounds to me like this

728
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: is about who gets to control AI, and I guess

729
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: the Trump administration feels like it's them, and Anthropic feels differently.

730
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and apparently also the Trump administration, like it's hard

731
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: to look at all this and not feel like they

732
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: are intending to use it for mass domestic surveillance. Like

733
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 2: they say that they aren't, but they're liars.

734
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 1: I saw this statement that Pete Hegseeth put out, and

735
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: he said, oh, the fact the claim that we want

736
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: to use AI to mass surveil citizens is just a

737
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: leftist talking point, because mass surveillance of American citizens is illegal.

738
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: First of all, like that has ever stopped y'all from

739
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: doing a goddamn thing ever. Second of all, y'all are

740
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: already mass survailing people, So what are you even talking about.

741
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: Then he goes on to say those two points of

742
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: contention are just liberal leftist talking points. We just want

743
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: to use AI to defend national security. It's not even

744
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: a good statement. It's not even a statement that it's

745
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: it's a kind of statement that you read and you're like, well,

746
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: it's clear that you want to do these two things

747
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: an Anthropic has said that you want to do.

748
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like pretty farticle what they're trying to argue. Yeah,

749
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: we'll stay on them. I'm so curious that this is

750
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: going to become like a bigger story over the weekend,

751
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: depending on what Haeseth decides to do, because it seems

752
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: like Anthropic is not going to cave well.

753
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: Speaking of domestic mass surveillance, we do have to talk

754
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: about what's going on in Kansas. It's enraging and heartbreaking.

755
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: The excellent trans Rights publication. Aaron in the Morning is

756
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: reporting that trans folks in Kansas are receiving letters from

757
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: the state's Division of Vehicles that their driver's licenses are

758
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: now considered invalid after the publication of a new law

759
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: on Thursday, February twenty six. Now, per this new law,

760
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: driver's licenses in Kansas are only valid if they indicate

761
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: a person's sex assigned at birth. Now, this law has

762
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: no grace period. You basically go to bed and you

763
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: wake up and your driver's license is invalid. You are

764
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: not legally permitted to drive your car. Not that it

765
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: would make it better if there was a grace period,

766
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: because it absolutely wouldn't, but just to give you a

767
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: sense of how haphazard, which I think is intentional, this

768
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: policy change has been so. This new law, which contains

769
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: some multiple provisions aimed at making life difficult and dangerous

770
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: for trans folks, was initially vetoed by the governor, only

771
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: to be overridden by the legislature. It was called the

772
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: bathroom Bounty Bill because one of the things it does

773
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 1: is essentially set up a bounty system that encourages members

774
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: of the public to sue trans people for entering bathrooms

775
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: that match their gender. So that's bad enough. But as

776
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: Aaron in the Morning points out, the driver's license provisions

777
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: are a part of a broader national push by anti

778
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: transactivists to deny trans folks access to accurate legal identification documents.

779
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: It follows federal actions made by the Trump administration that

780
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: prevent transfer folks from getting passports that reflect their gender

781
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: and new rules under the Social Security Administration that prevent

782
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 1: people from updating their gender. Florida, Texas, Indiana, and other

783
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: states have similarly taken steps to prevent folks from changing

784
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: the gender that's displayed on their driver's license. Just side note,

785
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: Aaron in the Morning is an invaluable resource for journalism

786
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: about a tax on trans Folks will put the link

787
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: in the show notes, but I highly recommend that folks

788
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: sign up for the newsletter and support their journalism if

789
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: you're able to do that. These efforts to i trans

790
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: folks accurate identification, it's not just inconvenient, it is dangerous.

791
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 1: Y'all might remember Britney Stewart. She's the attorney that we

792
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 1: spoke with a couple of weeks ago in an episode

793
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: about the trans Oklahoma grad student who was relieved of

794
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 1: her teaching duties at her university after giving a student

795
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: a bad grade on a paper. Brittany is also a

796
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: trans woman, and I asked Brittany for her thoughts and

797
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: here's what she had to say.

798
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 4: This week, in Kansas, the state legis Sleacher overrode the

799
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 4: veto of Governor Kelly of a bill that affects trans

800
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 4: people's use of restrooms, creating a private bounty if people

801
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 4: use a restroom that matches their gender identity rather than

802
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 4: their sex assigned at birth. But it also went further,

803
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 4: and the new law actually requires that trans people have

804
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 4: their sex assigned at birth listed on their Kansas driver's

805
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 4: license and identification cards. In two thousand and five, I

806
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 4: came out fully to my family and began hormone replacement therapy.

807
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 4: At the time, in Oklahoma, they did not allow updating

808
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 4: the sex marker on driver's licenses unless one had had

809
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 4: permanent surgical changes. So for a time I carried a

810
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 4: driver's license with my name as Britney, with a photo

811
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 4: of me looking like a woman, but with a sex

812
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 4: marker of M for male. It was terrifying driving, especially

813
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 4: outside of Oklahoma City, where I worried that a small

814
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 4: town Cup might pull me over, see that my sex

815
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 4: marker doesn't match my appearance and use it as a

816
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 4: reason to abuse me. Today, Kansas is forcing that to

817
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 4: be the reality for all trans people, regardless of their

818
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 4: surgical status or their years lived authentically. I had my

819
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 4: bottom surgery in two thousand and seven, and Oklahoma allowed

820
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 4: me to update my birth certificate and driver's lace since

821
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 4: after that, so it's been almost twenty years since I've

822
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 4: had to live with that fear. But today trans Kansons,

823
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: regardless of if they've had those documents updated for decades,

824
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 4: will now have to either carry identification that outs them

825
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 4: or flee to another state. That's where we're at. And

826
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 4: because of the Supreme Court decision this past summer that

827
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 4: dissolved the injunction that had stopped the US government from

828
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 4: doing the same thing on passports and providing the reasoning

829
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 4: that sex assigned at birth can be listed because quote

830
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 4: it's just a historic fact. There will likely not be

831
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 4: an easy way for courts to stop this. These policies

832
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 4: won't stop in Kansas. This is the beginning of a transgenocide.

833
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 4: I have resisted using that word for a while because

834
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 4: it can sound hyperbolic, especially when used too soon, But

835
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 4: this is reality. We trans people only make up about

836
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 4: one percent of the population, so we need our allies

837
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 4: to get loud. March in the streets for us, Occupy

838
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 4: the Kansas Capitol Building for US, fight back in every

839
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 4: state and territory for us. Stop falling for right wing

840
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 4: concern trolls about quote just protecting kids or quote protecting

841
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 4: women's sports when they are literally protecting pedophiles. First they

842
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 4: came for the immigrants, now they're coming from the trans folks.

843
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 4: It's that serious. I'll end this with some hope and joy, though.

844
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 4: In twenty seventeen, I married my best friend and the

845
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 4: love of my life, a straight CIS guy from the

846
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 4: working class who was willing to stand proudly next to

847
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 4: his woman who was not just a trans woman, but

848
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 4: a trans woman who was well known and out and

849
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 4: about and open about my life. Having been the first

850
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 4: out trans candidate for public office in Oklahoma. He risked

851
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 4: family and friends to marry me. So I know there

852
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 4: are good cis gender folks out there, and we need

853
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 4: you now more than ever.

854
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Brittany is not the only voice that I've

855
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: heard appealing to CIS allies to really make a lot

856
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: of noise about this, because these escalating attacks against trans

857
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: folks are simply unacceptable and we need to make that

858
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: clear to everyone, elected officials and everybody else.

859
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: More. After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

860
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. This segment talks about murder.

861
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 1: So back in twenty twenty two, there was a very

862
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: high profile tragic murder of students at the University of Idaho,

863
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: and it was one of those situations where people were

864
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: using social media platforms like TikTok to weigh in, which

865
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 1: is often the case in our sort of true crime

866
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: obsessed landscape where whenever something traged happens, strangers follow it

867
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: like it's a television show and not the tragedies of

868
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: real people who you don't even know. One of the

869
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: people weighing in was a Texas woman who says that

870
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: she is psychic, who used TikTok to accuse a University

871
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: of Idaho professor of the murders. So The Idaho Statesman

872
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: reports that Ashley Guilliard, a TikTok personality who claims to

873
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: have psychic abilities, is due in federal court in Boise

874
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: this week. For a scheduled trial to finally resolve the

875
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: three year old civil suit brought by the professor that

876
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: she accused of murder Rebecca Schofield. Now, to be super clear, Schofield,

877
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: the chair of the University of Idaho History Department, has

878
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: never met or taught any of the four students who

879
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: were murdered. She wrote this in her denial. She was

880
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: also out of town in Oregon when these students were killed,

881
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: so she genuinely had nothing to do with it. Is

882
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: want to make that super clear. Back in June of

883
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, a judge ruled in favor of Schofield,

884
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: and now it is up to a jury to decide

885
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: what the financial damages will be. Scofield previously adds for

886
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: more than one point eight million dollars. Now this TikTok psychic,

887
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: her behavior is wild. She published more than one hundred

888
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: videos that made erroneous allegations against Schofield. The accusations included

889
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: that the professor had a romantic relationship with one of

890
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: the four victims, which again she never met them, had

891
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: no contact with them, and ordered their deaths to prevent

892
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: the affair with a female student from becoming public. Again

893
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: that's completely made up. The professor sent her cease and

894
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: desist letters, but those letters were ignored and understandably the

895
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: professor Schofield says that the allegations have led to PTSD

896
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: and considerable professional hardship, which I have no trouble believing that.

897
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, allegations that she was having an affair with one

898
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 2: of her stuudents and then like murdered four of them,

899
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 2: I can see how that would be, you know, a

900
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: challenging professional context around the old university now Gilliard.

901
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: The TikTok psychic. Her defense is First Amendment based. According

902
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: to the Idaho Statesman, she has maintained that the defamation

903
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: lawsuit infringed upon her First Amendment rights and her free

904
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: expression of religion. She says that because she reads tarot cards,

905
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: she argues that it's a spiritual practice that led her

906
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: to quote uncover the motive and details that led to

907
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: the murder, even though this woman had nothing to do

908
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: with the murder. So her hero and like spiritual alignment

909
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: is leading her in the wrong direction. You should not

910
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: be able to use your platform to accuse a random

911
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: stranger of a brutal crime they did not commit. On

912
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: a public platform, And honestly, I think this case is

913
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: kind of a sign of the times because when platforms

914
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: won't really police this kind of thing and the law

915
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: hasn't really caught up, I think increasingly the only tool

916
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: that we're seeing people have is to just sue. Like

917
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: a defamation lawsuit is sort of becoming the new season desist,

918
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 1: because I think with social media, we have this climate

919
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: that anybody can say anything about anybody and it's okay, right,

920
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: And like, I think more and more people are like, actually,

921
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: it's not okay. If it causes me hardship or makes

922
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: me lose money, I'm going to sue you, and like

923
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 1: for what it's worth. These lawsuits are expensive and slow,

924
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: it takes years, like this civil case actually outlived the

925
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: actual criminal trial for the murders. But I do think

926
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of becomes people's only real recourse when somebody

927
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: with a platform just decides that they're going to ruin

928
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: their life via accusations that are just like fan fiction,

929
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: not grounded in any kind of reality.

930
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: That's right. We've seen that lots of times and stories

931
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 2: that we've talked about on this show, where yeah, defamation

932
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 2: lawsuits are one of the seemingly few tools available for

933
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 2: these harms that did occur when people say patently untrue

934
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 2: things on social media.

935
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do hope I've done an episode about

936
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: this before. I do think this is related to the

937
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: rise of true crime and the rise of social media platforms.

938
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: In the episode that we did about true crime, we'll

939
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: put it in the show notes. I talked about how

940
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: and I know that you know this about me, but

941
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: when I was young, one of my good friends was

942
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 1: murdered by a serial killer, and it was like, I mean,

943
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: before my parents died. This was the thing that kind

944
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 1: of separated my life in phases of like before this

945
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: happened and then after this happened like that, that's how

946
00:56:55,239 --> 00:57:01,280
Speaker 1: much of a that's how that's how much it shattered

947
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: my world. And I remember when it happened. My friend

948
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: for a time was before she was found dead. She

949
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: was missing, right, and so the presumption was that she

950
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: was still alive. There was a search for her, and

951
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: her story was all over the news. And I will

952
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: never forget watching that bitch Nancy Grace basically go on

953
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: television and essentially blame my good friend for her own

954
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: murder by highlighting the fact that my friend was kind

955
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: of a punk rocker and went to a lot of

956
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: punk shows, was an artist, had an alternative look about her.

957
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: She did not fit the persona of you know, she

958
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: was white, but she did not fit the persona of

959
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: a you know, angelic looking white girl who has gone missing,

960
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: and essentially made it sound as if my friend was

961
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: a probably involved with CD people doing CD things and

962
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: that's why she was missing. My friend was murdered by

963
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: a serial killer who she had never met, was completely

964
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: unknown to her, uh snatched her from a fucking parking lot.

965
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: And I will never forget what it felt like to

966
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: have a stranger offer their unasked for based in nothing

967
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: pulled out of her ass opinion about what might have

968
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: happened to my friend based on fucking fabrications and nothing else.

969
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: And So I think that when tragedies happen, because we

970
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: listen to a lot of true crime because it feels

971
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: good to like turn other people's pain into content, and

972
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: I think it it's easy for people to be divorced

973
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: from the fact that these are real people and real

974
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: communities and real loved ones and real families. I think

975
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: it makes it emboldens people to get on TikTok and

976
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: to say whatever, because it's just content. It's not real people,

977
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: and it's so hurtful and so harmful and so damaging.

978
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't like that we're in a climate

979
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: where the only real recourse folks have when this happens

980
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: to them is to sue. But people shouldn't be allowed

981
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: to do this. It's so harmful and so damaging, and

982
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: I hate that we have an internet landscape that rewards it,

983
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: because nothing gets engagement and clicks like someone getting on

984
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: TikTok and saying absolute nonsense about a tragedy that happened

985
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: to people they don't even know. Just a quick heads up.

986
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: This segment talks about Nicki Minaj and her hard right

987
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: wing pivot. Oh we're talking about it, Nicki Minaje. I'll

988
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: just say it, don't I mean I used to like her.

989
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: There it's like the we did an episode about Nicki

990
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: Minaj and the Barbs. And let me tell you, there

991
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: have only been a few a handful of times in

992
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 1: my career where I have been worried about being critical

993
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: about somebody one with Oprah, But I did the epic

994
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: behind the Bastards, like six part series on whether or

995
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: not Oprah Winfrey is a bastard probably one of the

996
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: pinnacles of my career. To be honest with you, I

997
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: genuinely was checking my email, and I don't check my

998
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: physical mailblox hardly. Ever, I was checking my mail boss.

999
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: I was so sure I had a seasoned desiscoming. I

1000
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: was like living in fear. The only other person that

1001
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: I felt that way about is Nicki Minaj Because the Barbs,

1002
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: I don't want it with the Barbs. I had a

1003
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: little bit of it from the Barbs. I don't want

1004
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: it from the Barbs. But so she has done this

1005
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: kind of hard right wing pivot. I have lots of

1006
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: reasons for why I think that is. They're not really

1007
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: appropriate for this episode I have. I think there are

1008
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: some specific reasons regarding Nicki Minaj is married to a

1009
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 1: convicted pataph file who was on a sex registrate list

1010
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: for crimes against minors. Rose are just two facts about

1011
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: Nicki Minaje. You know when people have hardships and need

1012
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: money and access, they do they do things.

1013
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:19,439
Speaker 3: They do things.

1014
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: Also, side note, let it be known how quick a

1015
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: bum man will ruin your life. You could go from

1016
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: being the top, the pinnacle of culture, so relevant, putting

1017
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: out hits and hits and hits to seeing yourself on

1018
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: stage with J. D. Vance and Donald Trump real quick,

1019
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: let that be a lesson to you like a bum man,

1020
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: and so your association with a bum man could ruin

1021
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: your life real quick. So Nicki Minaje hard right wing pivot.

1022
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: She appeared on stage with Trump at the Trump Account

1023
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: Summit in DC back in January, where she spoke in

1024
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: favor of Trump and his policies. She's been sharing these

1025
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: very weird obviously AI generated pictures of her with Trump.

1026
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: I guess to be like, Oh, Trump and I We're

1027
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: so buddy buddy. Now well, now we have a little

1028
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: more insight into how all of this is playing out

1029
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: online from a piece in Politico that outlined a new report.

1030
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: It's kind of similar to the conversations that we had

1031
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: around bots and how they can be used to amplify

1032
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: narratives online. We talked to the authors of a report

1033
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: about Taylor, Swift and bots. But this new report, compiled

1034
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: by the disinformation detection company Cybra, identifies a coordinated network

1035
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: of bots, more than eighteen thousand of them, are driving

1036
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: algorithms to spread Nicki Minaj's right wing posts on x

1037
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 1: We've actually been in touch with Cybra about something else,

1038
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: black fatigue. If you ever see the comment black fatigue

1039
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: on TikTok. They have a very interesting report about that.

1040
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: So hopefully at some point soon you will hear from

1041
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 1: them on the podcast. But as we learned about in

1042
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: our episode about Taylor Swift and bots, it really matters

1043
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: who is commissioning a report. And per Politico, the Saya

1044
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 1: Bra report was commissioned by a person who was granted

1045
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: an anonymity because they fear public retribution. Yeah, I'm dying

1046
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: to know who that person is.

1047
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so curious is is has Nicki minas? Is she

1048
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 2: one of these like online right wing people who who

1049
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 2: target specific people, Like are there people that she is

1050
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: taking down like Canda's Owen style or is her content

1051
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 2: more just like Trump is so great and I love Trump.

1052
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: She That's a very good question and the answer is

1053
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: pretty nuanced. It's sick how much I follow her social media?

1054
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: The answer is sort of both. She is someone who

1055
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: has a lot of personal distributes and beefs. She actually

1056
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: to let you ask, cause she actually just published a

1057
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: beef list or an enemy's list, just like a week ago.

1058
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 2: It's such a flex to not only have an enemy's list,

1059
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 2: but to publish it, be like I want everyone to know.

1060
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder could it be one of her many

1061
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: beefs who commissioned that report. Could it be Cardi B

1062
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: or Megdae Stallion. Imagine that you're working as a disinformation

1063
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: researcher and Cardi B calls you and is like, I

1064
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: needed to put together a report on Nicki Minaj's social media.

1065
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 1: That would be the greatest day of my life. I

1066
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: don't know that I'd be able to keep it anonymous.

1067
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: Kind of have to tell people, Okay. So, the report

1068
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: found that inauthentic accounts repeatedly amplified Nicki Minaj's post with

1069
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: praise that used quote highly similar language, particularly in response

1070
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: to posts where authentic accounts were criticizing Minaj. Quote supportive

1071
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: comments generated by fake profiles were predominantly brief, repetitive, and

1072
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: low and semantic complexity, consisting largely of praising keywords and

1073
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: positive hashtags rather than original or substantive engagements. Of report

1074
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 1: found other inauthentic activity are surrounding Minaj included longer, more

1075
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 1: detailed comments designed to appear organic. Cyber identified one day

1076
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: December twenty sixth, when fake profiles made up fifty six

1077
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: percent of all comments on political posts made by Nicki Minaj.

1078
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 1: The founders of cybres said, we don't really see a

1079
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: lot of high volume, high impact orchestration of bad and

1080
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: fake actors within that intersection of geopolitically driven and music culture.

1081
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: It is scarce in our field to see the combination

1082
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: of the bad and the fake online world with the

1083
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 1: entertainment world. So some of the comments on social media

1084
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 1: that they deem to be fake say things like Nicki,

1085
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: you are brave for living your truth. People might not

1086
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: always agree with what's being played out, but as an

1087
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: artist and watching your growth as a person is inspiring.

1088
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: And this came from user lax seven six two eight

1089
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: three six five speixes, which I feel is like a

1090
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: little bit of a giveaway. Yeah, they couldn't have made

1091
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: the name sound like I don't know, but like barbs

1092
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 1: many barbs underscore and then the number, but like a.

1093
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 2: Shorter number, something like try a little bit or just

1094
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 2: like some words not just a string of letters and numbers.

1095
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess they I think they use the

1096
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 2: people who are running these bot networks, I think they

1097
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 2: like reuse them across different campaigns, so I can understand

1098
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 2: why it wouldn't be like Barb lover sixty nine or whatever.

1099
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like.

1100
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 2: You gotta do better than just a string of letters

1101
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 2: and numbers. Yeah, talk about low and semantic complexity.

1102
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously. Something that we learned from the folks who

1103
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: put together the Taylor Swift bot report is that it's

1104
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 1: not just the bots operating at a silo. The point

1105
01:06:55,560 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: is to integrate into genuine, authentic conversations to creased credibility

1106
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: and visibility. And that's exactly what the people who wrote

1107
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: this report about Nicki minaj Is online content also saw. Interestingly,

1108
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: the report also says that Nicki is taking advantage of

1109
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: how algorithms boost toxic content. This is from Politico. When

1110
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 1: account boosting manage posted content that researchers identified as toxic,

1111
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 1: the algorithm drove her posts even further. Companies like Cybra

1112
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: determine toxicity by assessing not just the positive or negative

1113
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: words used in a post, but the apparent intent behind them.

1114
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 1: Personal attacks, slurs, threats, or comments that seemed designed to

1115
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: deter a reasonable person from engaging in conversation are typically

1116
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: considered toxic. When the conversation is limited to toxic content,

1117
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: a substantially stronger amplification effect emerges. These accounts predominantly amplify

1118
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: content produced by Nicki Minaj and Turning Points USA, indicating

1119
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: a notable overlap between the two. Within this discourse, several

1120
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: of the accounts involved had previously been identified as exhibiting

1121
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 1: fake can pain like behavior in the context of Manaja's

1122
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: online activity within and relating to the music industry. So basically, unfortunately,

1123
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 1: as we always see on social media, the toxicity is

1124
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:18,400
Speaker 1: part of why this content is amplified across platforms, and

1125
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me that they were looking at X,

1126
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: where Minaj is increasingly more prevalent. I think that at

1127
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 1: least temporarily, she deleted her Instagram account after the whole

1128
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: kind of right wing pivot with Trump, even though Nicki

1129
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: Minaj has been like this for a long time, like

1130
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by her, but like this didn't come out

1131
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 1: of nowhere. This has been if you've been paying attention

1132
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 1: to Nicki Minaj, this is not surprising that this is

1133
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,719
Speaker 1: kind of what she's doing now. But X, it doesn't

1134
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: surprise me that that is where she's really spending a

1135
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: lot of her time. That's what this report is focused on,

1136
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 1: because it's just a platform where the shit rises. I

1137
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:00,560
Speaker 1: don't know if you've spent any time on X, but

1138
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: I go there like once every three months to weeks

1139
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 1: too late retweet when somebody tags me in something like

1140
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:11,280
Speaker 1: a like a podcast appearance or a guess what I did,

1141
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I will never see it, But anytime

1142
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm there, it's just the worst of the worst of

1143
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: the worst nonsense. And it's not just down at the bottom,

1144
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 1: it's amplified. So it doesn't surprise me that Nicki Minaj

1145
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 1: is taking advantage of the fact that toxicity and flurs

1146
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 1: and threats that's what plays on X. So that's why

1147
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: she's on X, and that's why the bots are on

1148
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 1: X amplifying her Trump stuff.

1149
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah like that. It's I have the same experience with

1150
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 2: the X like once once every couple months, I'll like

1151
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:44,640
Speaker 2: be reading an article that links to a tweet or

1152
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:47,600
Speaker 2: or an X or whatever they call them now, and

1153
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:52,879
Speaker 2: and I'll go there and just immediately is such garbage,

1154
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,560
Speaker 2: like it seems to be what it's for is like

1155
01:09:55,720 --> 01:10:00,680
Speaker 2: toxicity and hate and and also just nonsese though like

1156
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 2: it's if, it's if content there seems to be either

1157
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 2: like hateful or just like really dumb, like the least

1158
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 2: informed takes I've read anywhere on the Internet.

1159
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 1: Yes, I could not agree with you more. I have

1160
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: seen the exact same thing. It's not all just bots though,

1161
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 1: and this is usually of the hallmark of these inauthentic

1162
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 1: campaigns is that they're kind of it's some bots and

1163
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 1: inauthentic accounts and then a string of authentic accounts from

1164
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 1: real people that are also in the midst. So these

1165
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: are accounts by folks like Matt Wallace or other conservative

1166
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: figures who sort of layer in and authentically amplify inauthentic

1167
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:45,759
Speaker 1: narratives by engaging with it. As one of the authors

1168
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 1: of the report said, real human beings are behaving the

1169
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: exact same way, utilizing the exact same behavioral patterns as

1170
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 1: you would expect from a well coordinated campaign. They amplify

1171
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 1: each other, they are writing the same similar wave of narratives.

1172
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:02,679
Speaker 1: So Nicki Minaj obviously did not reply to Politico's request

1173
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: for comment, but Alan Brusowitz, a media and political advisor

1174
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: to Trump, who considers Nikki a quote very close friend,

1175
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: did tell Politico that he was confident that there are

1176
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: no bots involved with Nicki Minaj's social presence. Nicki has

1177
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 1: never used bot activity to promote herself on social media

1178
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 1: because she doesn't need to. She has one of the

1179
01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 1: largest fan bases of any musician that's alive today. How

1180
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: would they know this? Why would a staffer for the

1181
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:34,639
Speaker 1: Trump administration know whether or not Nicki Minaj has ever

1182
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 1: used bought accounts? And it might not even be like I,

1183
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 1: if you ask me, Nicki Minaj is absolutely doing that.

1184
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: She is using bot accounts, but it might not even

1185
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 1: be Nicki. There have definitely been reports where someone else

1186
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,720
Speaker 1: is coordinating bot accounts on someone else's behalf. So how

1187
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,200
Speaker 1: could this person definitively say, oh, there is no Nicki

1188
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,600
Speaker 1: Minaj is the one public figure in the history of

1189
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: the Internet where there is absolutely zero or inauthentic activity

1190
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:09,600
Speaker 1: surrounding conversations about her period. How would they know that?

1191
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean maybe he knows because he's maybe it's him,

1192
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 2: Maybe he's paying for the bots. He's like, oh, yeah,

1193
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 2: Nikki's not using the bots.

1194
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 1: I am.

1195
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 2: I am I'm using the box.

1196
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: What if he's using the bots and paid for the

1197
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: report he's the anonymous source.

1198
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 2: Oh wow, because he is racked by guilt, or he's

1199
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 2: just a chaos agent. Just just try to layer on

1200
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:39,599
Speaker 2: the smoke screen.

1201
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 1: Don't pour cold water on my conspiracy by making by

1202
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 1: trying to make it make sense. Well, it's been a

1203
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: rough Black History Month from the Nicki Minaj thing, from

1204
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: the Sinner's Baptist thing, and I guess this is our

1205
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 1: last episode of Black History Months. And I realized I

1206
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 1: didn't acknowledge it, nor did I receive your gift. By

1207
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: the way, I hope it's in the mail. You've got

1208
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 1: a few days left to get me my Black History

1209
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: Month gift.

1210
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,560
Speaker 2: It's there, you just haven't found it yet. Yeah, I

1211
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:09,560
Speaker 2: mailed it a long time ago. Maybe he should go

1212
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 2: check your mail.

1213
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna assume it's downstairs in my mailbox and

1214
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: i'll get it after we tape. But I didn't want

1215
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 1: to share a cool post that I saw from threads

1216
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,720
Speaker 1: user unapologetically Jackie that I didn't know, which is that

1217
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: every time you drop a reaction, Jeff, do you say

1218
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:25,679
Speaker 1: Jiff or Giff?

1219
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 2: I say gifts. Oh, I say Jiff weird?

1220
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: Steve will Hit, the creator of Graphics Interchange Format or

1221
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 1: GIF in nineteen eighty seven, says that the correct pronunciation

1222
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:42,639
Speaker 1: is jiff, a soft G mimicking the peanut butter brand Jiff,

1223
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: while the hard G pronunciation is widely used. He insisted

1224
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 1: in his twenty thirteen Webby's Award speech that it's Jeff,

1225
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 1: saying he famously said, choosey programmers, choose Jiff. That's actually

1226
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 1: pretty good.

1227
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 2: That is pretty good in any event.

1228
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 1: Every time you drop it Jiff or GIF, Thank Lisa

1229
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: Jelobter or is it Gillobter, oh harg softgy you we'll see.

1230
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 1: She helped engineer the animation tech that made jiffs. Black

1231
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 1: women have been running internet culture. Y'all just got here,

1232
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:20,719
Speaker 1: and that's true. I love that. Lisa. If you're listening,

1233
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 1: thank you for your contributions to internet culture. Every time

1234
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: I post a jiff of Ninni leaks reacting to something,

1235
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 1: I will think of you. Also, very quickly, I wanted

1236
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: to say thank you to everybody who left very kind

1237
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: comments about the book. Thank you to those of you

1238
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: who have sent in your book preorders. If you missed it.

1239
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:45,400
Speaker 1: Mike and I have an audiobook coming out about intimacy

1240
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,759
Speaker 1: and AI called Love at First Prompt. It is available

1241
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,679
Speaker 1: for pre order now. Even go to Love at First

1242
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,680
Speaker 1: prompt dot com to preorder it. It would mean the

1243
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: world to me if y'all did that, But no pressure.

1244
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: If you preorder it and send us a screenshot of

1245
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: your pre order, you can email it, you can post

1246
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: it on social. Whatever you want to do, we will

1247
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:06,640
Speaker 1: send you. I will write you a handwritten thank you

1248
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 1: note one, and we will send you a sticker. If

1249
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 1: you already have a sticker, maybe a magnat, well, we'll

1250
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 1: send you something cool. We love you so much. The

1251
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 1: reaction has been tremendous. I cannot tell you how much

1252
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. If you want to be part of that,

1253
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: please pre order the book and we will send you something.

1254
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:23,759
Speaker 1: We promise.

1255
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Let us know what your thought about

1256
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 2: these stories. You can send us an email at Hello

1257
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,440
Speaker 2: at tangoty dot com. Leave us a comment on Spotify.

1258
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 2: We've been getting a lot of great comments on Spotify.

1259
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 2: It's fantastic. Thank you for leaving them, and you can

1260
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 2: follow Bridget on social Bridget Marie in DC on Instagram

1261
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 2: and TikTok. You can follow There Are No Girls on

1262
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 2: the Internet on YouTube and blue Sky. So hope to

1263
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 2: see you there and I will see you on the Internet.

1264
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,000
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech? I

1265
01:15:57,160 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 2: just want to say hi.

1266
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,640
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tangody dot You

1267
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 1: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengoiti dot com.

1268
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

1269
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,599
Speaker 1: me Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed

1270
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is

1271
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,839
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer.

1272
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: Edited by Joey pat I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

1273
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us

1274
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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.