WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Opening Statements 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:18.516 --> 0:00:21.476 Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to this episode, 0:00:21.596 --> 0:00:23.116 I want to let you know that you can listen 0:00:23.116 --> 0:00:26.316 to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial of Sam 0:00:26.356 --> 0:00:30.516 Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber, 0:00:30.996 --> 0:00:34.076 and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive access to 0:00:34.156 --> 0:00:38.676 ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul McCartney's new podcast, 0:00:38.836 --> 0:00:43.636 McCartney A Life and Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's revisionist history, The 0:00:43.676 --> 0:00:47.516 Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and tons of other 0:00:47.596 --> 0:00:51.116 top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an Apple Podcasts or 0:00:51.116 --> 0:00:52.916 at Pushkin, dot fm. 0:00:52.556 --> 0:00:53.516 Slash Plus. 0:00:55.556 --> 0:00:58.676 Welcome to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 0:00:58.996 --> 0:01:02.596 I'm Michael Lewis. Bankman Freed was worth tens of billions 0:01:02.596 --> 0:01:06.636 of dollars before FTX his cryptocurrency exchange came apart at 0:01:06.636 --> 0:01:09.556 the scenes, and now he's being tried for financial crimes. 0:01:09.596 --> 0:01:11.196 They could send him to prison for the rest of 0:01:11.236 --> 0:01:12.836 his life. 0:01:14.636 --> 0:01:17.556 It's Thursday, October fifth, and in the studio this evening 0:01:17.676 --> 0:01:20.996 we have our reporter Lydia, Jean Cott, and Rebecca Mermelstein, 0:01:21.156 --> 0:01:24.356 who's a partner at the law firm ol Melvanie and Myers. 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:27.316 I'm Jacob Weisberg, the co founder of Pushkin, standing in 0:01:27.356 --> 0:01:30.436 for Michael Lewis. We're recording this after the third day 0:01:30.476 --> 0:01:33.676 of Sam bankman Fried's trial, and a lot has happened 0:01:33.716 --> 0:01:37.436 in three days. We're through the jury selection, the opening statements, 0:01:37.476 --> 0:01:40.796 and the first witnesses. So LJ, I'm going to turn 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:43.596 to you first. You've been getting to the courthouse very 0:01:43.636 --> 0:01:46.476 early in the morning and lining up with the other reporters. 0:01:46.796 --> 0:01:47.836 What's the scene there. 0:01:47.716 --> 0:01:52.796 Been, Like, it's actually really fun. You know, reporters were 0:01:52.796 --> 0:01:55.716 all interested in each other, so everyone's kind of chattying 0:01:55.756 --> 0:01:58.876 and asking each other questions. And yeah, we get there 0:01:58.876 --> 0:02:01.076 at six am and the doy is usually open at eight, 0:02:01.156 --> 0:02:04.396 so it's about two hours, so people take turns running 0:02:04.396 --> 0:02:07.596 to get coffee and bagels. One thing that's funny is 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:10.596 it's a lot of crypto reporters and they kind of 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:13.076 think that this might be the last big story in crypto, 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:17.076 so they're kind of covering their own funeral in a way. 0:02:17.276 --> 0:02:19.236 I haven't thought of it that way. That's really interesting. 0:02:19.596 --> 0:02:22.476 So I read the opening statements, which happened on Wednesday, 0:02:22.556 --> 0:02:25.396 right after the jury selection, but I know that's not 0:02:25.556 --> 0:02:29.276 the same as seeing them delivered. How did they sound 0:02:29.316 --> 0:02:29.996 in the courthouse. 0:02:30.236 --> 0:02:34.036 The prosecution was very bombastic, I would say, in the 0:02:34.076 --> 0:02:37.236 way that they delivered their opening statements. Rebecca and your 0:02:37.236 --> 0:02:39.436 Bengo card. In a previous episode, you said that they 0:02:39.476 --> 0:02:41.636 would use the word lies, and they used the word 0:02:41.716 --> 0:02:44.276 lies a lot, and they hit it. They talked about 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:47.716 how Sam led to FTX customers, he lied to investors, 0:02:47.756 --> 0:02:51.276 he lied to lenders. At some point the prosecutor actually 0:02:51.316 --> 0:02:55.716 pointed at Sam and he said, this man stole billions 0:02:55.716 --> 0:02:58.596 of dollars from thousands of people. So I feel like 0:02:58.636 --> 0:03:01.876 they were trying to use simple sentences, you know, subject verb, 0:03:02.476 --> 0:03:04.476 and they were trying to say, this is not a 0:03:04.516 --> 0:03:08.156 complicated case. This is simple. This man lied and he stole. 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:11.356 Rebecca, how was the rest of your Bengo card. I 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:15.676 think there was victims, greed, stole, and then defense would 0:03:15.756 --> 0:03:18.956 use the word complexity a lot. Did that much a matchup? 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:19.356 Pretty well? 0:03:19.356 --> 0:03:21.556 I did better on the government Bengo card than the 0:03:21.556 --> 0:03:24.316 defense bingo card. Actually, I think on the lies, the victims, 0:03:24.316 --> 0:03:27.476 the greed, I got it. On the defense one, I'm 0:03:27.516 --> 0:03:29.196 not sure I heard as much complexity as I thought 0:03:29.196 --> 0:03:29.716 I was going to. 0:03:30.676 --> 0:03:33.996 I will say just reading it that the prosecution opening 0:03:34.076 --> 0:03:37.596 statement was very strong and vivid, and I lost the 0:03:37.636 --> 0:03:40.396 threat a little bit a few times. Reading the defense statement, 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:43.036 it was honestly, it read just a little boring. 0:03:43.156 --> 0:03:44.796 Exactly I was actually going to say that, and I 0:03:44.836 --> 0:03:48.396 was like, arguably, you could say maybe confusing, which maybe 0:03:48.436 --> 0:03:52.076 was actually a strategy. And as opposed to the prosecution, 0:03:52.196 --> 0:03:55.236 the defense lawyer he was a lot more seft spoken. 0:03:55.396 --> 0:03:57.556 I think he kind of seemed fatherly. I think I 0:03:57.596 --> 0:03:59.196 read somewhere that it was kind of like he was 0:03:59.276 --> 0:04:01.796 we were children and it was story time. Like I 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:04.636 did see wonder nodding off, but I think he was 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:07.156 kind of trying to tell an opposite story. He kept 0:04:07.156 --> 0:04:09.436 saying like Sam is not a villain. I think he 0:04:09.516 --> 0:04:14.996 was saying like, this is not this bombastic, dramatic thing. Actually, 0:04:14.996 --> 0:04:18.356 like let's be mature here. There's nothing really to see. 0:04:18.436 --> 0:04:20.636 This is just a young guy, a math nerd, who 0:04:20.836 --> 0:04:23.196 started this company and it didn't work out. 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:23.836 Basically. 0:04:24.156 --> 0:04:25.996 The one metaphor that really stood out to me was 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:27.756 how he talked about a whole lot of startups. You're 0:04:27.916 --> 0:04:30.196 flying a plane as you're building it. That was the 0:04:30.196 --> 0:04:32.116 thing that I pulled out as to what happened here. 0:04:32.436 --> 0:04:35.196 And they were moving too fast and they crashed, But 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:37.116 no one meant to do anything. 0:04:36.796 --> 0:04:41.276 Bad mistakes, not lies and fraud. Rebecca, what surprised you? 0:04:41.356 --> 0:04:44.876 Were there any obvious mistakes or any wins in the 0:04:45.036 --> 0:04:46.996 opening statements and the first witnesses. 0:04:47.516 --> 0:04:50.596 I think the thing that surprised me the most about 0:04:50.636 --> 0:04:56.356 the defense opening is that he didn't call the cooperators liars. 0:04:56.676 --> 0:05:00.436 And that's interesting because there's a lot of cooperators. I 0:05:00.516 --> 0:05:03.196 had anticipated you'd get a defense opening that called them 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:06.116 liars and talked about why they were lying. This was 0:05:06.156 --> 0:05:09.596 a little softer than that. Subtly so, I think because 0:05:10.116 --> 0:05:15.516 Defense counsel did say that the cooperators were motivated by 0:05:15.596 --> 0:05:18.196 needing to say what the government wanted to hear, but 0:05:18.276 --> 0:05:20.276 he didn't go that far, to go all the way 0:05:20.316 --> 0:05:23.836 to lies. And he talked about the fact that hindsight 0:05:23.916 --> 0:05:25.556 is twenty twenty, which I think is going to be 0:05:25.596 --> 0:05:29.796 a defense theme here, and that the cooperators were viewing 0:05:29.956 --> 0:05:34.596 statements with that hindsight, that they were interpreting ambiguous statements 0:05:34.676 --> 0:05:37.516 in light of what the government wanted to hear and 0:05:37.556 --> 0:05:40.196 so there's an effort, it seems to me so far 0:05:40.436 --> 0:05:43.596 could change strategies as the trial unfolds to thread a needle, 0:05:43.636 --> 0:05:47.116 which is, you don't have to think these cooperators are 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:50.796 lying under oath to think they're wrong. They could be mistaken, 0:05:51.436 --> 0:05:53.756 they could be reading too much into things, and it 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:56.396 gives you a little daylight where you can say, these 0:05:56.436 --> 0:05:59.796 four people may be telling the truth as they believe it, 0:06:00.116 --> 0:06:02.236 but they're wrong. And we'll see whether or not that 0:06:02.316 --> 0:06:03.996 strategy stays true throughout the whole trial. 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:06.756 So that's a defense strategy. What would you say about 0:06:06.916 --> 0:06:09.036 prosecution strategy so far? 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:11.876 I think it's pretty as expected. I would say the 0:06:12.316 --> 0:06:16.236 opening had the same structure you always see in government openings, 0:06:16.276 --> 0:06:19.156 what we would call the grab, that kind of early 0:06:19.556 --> 0:06:23.956 and initial description of things, then a narrative about what 0:06:24.036 --> 0:06:27.796 happened here, and ending with a description of how the 0:06:27.796 --> 0:06:30.796 government is going to prove its case, what kind of witnesses, 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:34.476 what kind of evidence, even the point as I think 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:37.876 prosecutors would call it that Lydia Jean referred to very 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:42.556 traditional for a government prosecutor to during the opening point 0:06:42.956 --> 0:06:46.196 with an extended dramatic point at a defendant, look at 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:48.836 the defendant. It's really a way of signaling to a 0:06:48.956 --> 0:06:51.596 jury that you're going to ask to convict someone and 0:06:51.676 --> 0:06:53.996 send them to jail for a long time, that you 0:06:54.036 --> 0:06:56.236 are asking them to do that hard thing of sitting 0:06:56.276 --> 0:06:59.236 in judgment, and that you yourself are buying into that, 0:06:59.236 --> 0:07:01.236 that you believe it and they should believe it. So 0:07:01.476 --> 0:07:05.356 not surprised by any of that couple little, I would say, 0:07:06.396 --> 0:07:11.556 nuanced points that were made. The government trying to lay 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:15.396 a foundation to undermine what it predicts the defense might 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:19.436 be without being defensive. Always hard to know exactly what 0:07:19.476 --> 0:07:21.516 the defense is going to be, so they may or 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:24.116 may not be getting it right. A couple of examples. 0:07:24.796 --> 0:07:28.876 At what point the government said that FTX was not 0:07:28.956 --> 0:07:32.036 a bank, it was an exchange and so it can't 0:07:32.116 --> 0:07:36.156 borrow or spend customer money. We know from pre trial 0:07:36.196 --> 0:07:39.276 briefing that one argument the defense was trying to make 0:07:39.396 --> 0:07:42.036 is look, your money in your bank account at JP 0:07:42.116 --> 0:07:45.196 Morgan Chase is in fact being used by the bank 0:07:45.236 --> 0:07:47.716 for its own purposes, and that's not illegal. It's totally fine, 0:07:48.276 --> 0:07:50.636 and so it was reasonable for that to be done here. 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:53.476 I think that reference by the government was an effort 0:07:53.516 --> 0:07:55.956 to make sure that if the defense went there, the 0:07:56.036 --> 0:07:59.036 jury had heard from them first, that's not the same thing. 0:07:59.156 --> 0:08:01.716 That's not what happened here. And you heard that in 0:08:01.756 --> 0:08:05.276 a couple of places, a reference that the government puts 0:08:05.276 --> 0:08:08.036 in there to make sure that if the defense says it, 0:08:08.396 --> 0:08:11.196 the jury doesn't think, well, wait a minute, that's new information. 0:08:11.316 --> 0:08:13.156 You say, oh, yeah, right, I sort of heard something 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:17.436 about that. So a couple other examples, you heard reference 0:08:17.476 --> 0:08:20.916 to the fact that FTX had a program by which 0:08:20.996 --> 0:08:25.196 customers could lend out their cryptocurrency to other people. I 0:08:25.196 --> 0:08:27.396 think that's that same foundation if there's going to be 0:08:27.396 --> 0:08:29.836 a defense that this was fine, and people lend each 0:08:29.876 --> 0:08:31.876 other things all the time, and he was just borrowing. 0:08:32.476 --> 0:08:35.876 The government preemptively said that program existed, that's not what 0:08:35.996 --> 0:08:39.796 happened here. Another kind of flip of a fact that 0:08:39.876 --> 0:08:44.676 was interesting is the government described Sam Bankman Freed's charitable 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:48.556 giving as self promotional, that he did it to boost 0:08:48.556 --> 0:08:52.876 his own image as a way to gain access to 0:08:52.956 --> 0:08:55.756 look good. And the same with the story about the 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:59.596 cover up. They talked about how in advance, in a 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:03.676 very nefarious and intentional way, the government says he was 0:09:03.756 --> 0:09:08.876 already laying the foundation of his defense, for example, by 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:12.276 acting like he wasn't in charge of Alameda when he was, 0:09:12.596 --> 0:09:17.116 by backdating contracts, by forcing people to communicate over encrypted 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:21.356 apps so that communications wouldn't exist anymore, and they specifically 0:09:21.356 --> 0:09:23.876 said that as part of that cover up, he tried 0:09:23.876 --> 0:09:27.596 to point to the terms of service as justifying what 0:09:27.716 --> 0:09:29.996 happened here, and in fact, his lawyer did do that 0:09:30.036 --> 0:09:32.116 in his opening he put up the terms of service 0:09:32.156 --> 0:09:33.636 and said we're going to talk more about this. But 0:09:33.756 --> 0:09:36.676 he was allowed to do it. So not a surprise, 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:38.956 I think, but certainly an indication of what the government 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:40.116 thought the defense was going to be. 0:09:41.276 --> 0:09:43.036 We'll be back after the break to talk about the 0:09:43.036 --> 0:09:50.836 witness testimony. We're back, and I want to hear both 0:09:50.876 --> 0:09:53.636 of your thoughts about the witness testimony. We've heard so far. 0:09:54.156 --> 0:09:58.076 The prosecutors have started calling their witnesses. The first was 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:01.116 a French commodity trader who lost a lot of money 0:10:01.116 --> 0:10:05.476 on FPX. So I guess, LJ. How French was he 0:10:05.556 --> 0:10:07.116 and why not an American victim? 0:10:09.316 --> 0:10:12.076 I would say he seemed quite French, but he does 0:10:12.156 --> 0:10:16.516 live in London now, And you know, people did we 0:10:16.596 --> 0:10:19.716 did wonder why he was the victim that was chosen, 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:25.116 because he wasn't necessarily the most sympathetic victim. As you know, 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:28.476 a commodities trader who lives in London. He did lose 0:10:28.516 --> 0:10:31.356 a lot of money on FTX, and he had screenshots 0:10:31.396 --> 0:10:34.676 to show how he put money in the account. He 0:10:34.796 --> 0:10:38.516 showed how his money was there, and he talked about 0:10:38.516 --> 0:10:41.156 how he thought it was safe and how the reason 0:10:41.236 --> 0:10:44.836 he invested in FTX was because he believed that his 0:10:44.916 --> 0:10:48.116 customer deposits would be safe there. But you know, Rebecca, 0:10:48.316 --> 0:10:51.316 in our last conversation, you talked about how a victim 0:10:51.356 --> 0:10:54.436 would be you know, we should expect to hear from victims, 0:10:54.516 --> 0:10:57.516 and you mentioned a grandmother in Topeka, and I just 0:10:57.596 --> 0:11:01.556 kept thinking that this French commodities trader living in London 0:11:02.276 --> 0:11:03.836 is no grandmother in Topeka. 0:11:04.436 --> 0:11:07.236 They of course, will have spoken to many many victims, 0:11:07.396 --> 0:11:11.036 both as part of their own infration gathering and frankly, 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:13.436 to find one who's going to be a good witness. 0:11:13.876 --> 0:11:16.196 So it's interesting because I think LG is right, not 0:11:16.436 --> 0:11:19.276 the little old lady in Topeka that you might have 0:11:19.476 --> 0:11:22.476 guessed would come forward, but I do think someone like 0:11:22.556 --> 0:11:25.876 this witness satisfies a couple of requirements that the grandmother 0:11:25.916 --> 0:11:29.636 from Topeka maybe doesn't. First of all, you need someone 0:11:29.836 --> 0:11:32.836 or you want someone who's not just going to say 0:11:32.996 --> 0:11:36.036 I invested in FTX and I lost money, so I 0:11:36.076 --> 0:11:39.116 am a victim and there are real victims here. You 0:11:39.316 --> 0:11:41.876 also want someone who's going to be able to say 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:46.036 I was paying attention. It mattered to me what Sam 0:11:46.076 --> 0:11:50.516 Bankman Freed said. I listened to him, I read the 0:11:50.556 --> 0:11:53.996 documents that were provided before I invested. I followed what 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:58.116 he said publicly about the safety of my investments. I 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:02.836 used the app that showed where my assets were and 0:12:02.876 --> 0:12:06.676 what I had. So someone who wasn't as conscientious of 0:12:06.756 --> 0:12:09.916 an investor isn't as good of a witness that purpose, 0:12:10.396 --> 0:12:12.156 because you're not going to be able to show through 0:12:12.196 --> 0:12:15.356 them that these laws matter and that people relied on them. 0:12:15.916 --> 0:12:19.436 LJ the jurors. And you also heard from a college 0:12:19.476 --> 0:12:23.516 friend of Sam Bankman Fried who said he quit when 0:12:23.516 --> 0:12:26.236 he didn't like what was going on there. And from 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:30.876 Gary Wang, who was described by Michael Lewis in Going 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:35.716 Infinite is a famously silent chief technology officer. What were 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:37.036 all those witnesses. 0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:40.476 Like, Yeah, so Adam Adda, who was Sam's friend in 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:44.116 college who worked at both Alameda and FTX. I thought 0:12:44.156 --> 0:12:47.476 he was a very compelling witness. He was very fourthright, 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:51.756 he was an engineer. He seemed very precise in everything 0:12:51.796 --> 0:12:52.396 that he said. 0:12:53.116 --> 0:12:56.236 Well, there was this exchange I read about on a 0:12:56.276 --> 0:12:58.836 paddle tennis court. Why were they doing business there? It 0:12:58.916 --> 0:13:00.156 sounds very Bahamas. 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:05.076 Yeah, So what happened was that Adam became aware that 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:10.156 Alameda had eight billion dollars worth of fti X customer money, 0:13:10.676 --> 0:13:14.396 and he was worried about Alameda being able to pay 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:18.236 back that money to FTX customers, because eight billion dollars 0:13:18.396 --> 0:13:20.636 is a lot of money. And he talked about how 0:13:20.676 --> 0:13:23.556 he told Sam he was worried, and he asked Sam 0:13:23.636 --> 0:13:26.316 if it was a problem, and he recounted Sam saying 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:29.436 to him, quote, we were a bulletproof last year. I'm 0:13:29.476 --> 0:13:33.476 not sure if we're bulletproof this year. And he asked 0:13:33.516 --> 0:13:37.596 Sam how long until we're bulletproof again? And Sam said 0:13:37.836 --> 0:13:40.596 six months to three years. And this was just a 0:13:40.596 --> 0:13:43.316 few months before FTX filed for bankruptcy. 0:13:44.556 --> 0:13:47.996 So that's a damaging bit. And how about this Gary Wang, 0:13:48.156 --> 0:13:48.756 what was he like? 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:51.236 It was a really huge deal. When he entered the courtroom, 0:13:51.236 --> 0:13:53.796 everyone's been really excited to hear from him, in part 0:13:53.836 --> 0:13:57.676 because he's along with Sam the founder of FTX and Alameda, 0:13:58.076 --> 0:14:01.436 and also he has a reputation for never speaking. Michael 0:14:01.476 --> 0:14:03.956 talked about how he wasn't able to interview him because 0:14:03.996 --> 0:14:07.236 he didn't say anything at all. I read like his 0:14:07.356 --> 0:14:09.996 high school did a story about him, you know, when 0:14:09.996 --> 0:14:12.716 all of this came out and they interviewed his teachers, 0:14:12.756 --> 0:14:16.036 and there just weren't very many people who had really 0:14:16.076 --> 0:14:18.156 remembered or could say that much about him, because he's 0:14:18.156 --> 0:14:21.036 known for being really, really quiet. But it was interesting 0:14:21.036 --> 0:14:23.516 when he took the stand because he actually had a 0:14:23.556 --> 0:14:26.836 lot to say. He spoke really fast. The judge and 0:14:26.916 --> 0:14:29.596 the prosecutor told them to slow down, and the rest 0:14:29.596 --> 0:14:32.556 of Friday is going to be dedicated to his testimony. 0:14:32.636 --> 0:14:38.196 He you know, pled guilty to financial crimes and specifically 0:14:38.276 --> 0:14:42.036 he said, quote, we gave Alameda special privileges to withdraw 0:14:42.076 --> 0:14:44.556 an unlimited amount of funds and lied about it to 0:14:44.596 --> 0:14:47.396 the public. I should say that we can't bring electronics 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:49.116 in the courtroom, so this is based on my notes, 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:52.676 but he said something like that, and the prosecution asked 0:14:52.716 --> 0:14:55.596 him at whose direction did he act, and he said SAMs. 0:14:56.916 --> 0:14:58.996 So, Rebecca, the burden of proof, it's, of course on 0:14:59.156 --> 0:15:02.516 the prosecution. Do you think at this point, after day three, 0:15:02.636 --> 0:15:05.156 they're getting what they need from the witnesses to prove 0:15:05.156 --> 0:15:05.636 their case. 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:08.556 That's a hard question to answer from this distance. I 0:15:08.556 --> 0:15:10.556 would say it sounds like it's going very well for 0:15:10.596 --> 0:15:13.236 the government so far, but really too soon to say 0:15:13.716 --> 0:15:16.996 where it's going. I think it's important to recognize that 0:15:17.996 --> 0:15:22.716 in America generally prosecutors win almost all the time, prosecutors 0:15:22.756 --> 0:15:24.796 in the Southern District of New York, I would guess 0:15:24.836 --> 0:15:27.716 more so even than average. So even if you didn't 0:15:27.756 --> 0:15:29.516 know anything about the case from the get go, the 0:15:29.556 --> 0:15:33.116 odds are always stacked pretty heavily against a defendant, even 0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:35.316 with the presumption of innocence, And the proof here does 0:15:35.356 --> 0:15:37.076 seem like it's going to be very strong. 0:15:37.756 --> 0:15:40.836 Rebecca, I actually have a question for you. Like in court, 0:15:41.036 --> 0:15:46.156 the defense lawyers keep making objections that get overruled, and 0:15:46.876 --> 0:15:50.436 when they're doing cross the prosecution makes a lot of 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:53.476 objections that are sustained. A lot of times the judge 0:15:53.476 --> 0:15:56.276 has called out the defense lawyers, he's brought them to 0:15:56.396 --> 0:15:59.996 side panels like it feels like the defense is having 0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:02.716 a really hard time and they're always in trouble, And 0:16:02.916 --> 0:16:05.156 is that normal? Is that usually how it feels or 0:16:05.476 --> 0:16:06.556 is that of no? 0:16:07.356 --> 0:16:09.876 I don't know that there's a normal. Different judges have 0:16:09.916 --> 0:16:13.956 different practices about objections. Different judges give more leeway or 0:16:14.076 --> 0:16:16.876 enforce the rules of evidence more strictly, So it really 0:16:16.916 --> 0:16:20.596 is case by case and judge by judge. I do 0:16:20.636 --> 0:16:23.356 think one thing to keep in mind about the optics 0:16:23.396 --> 0:16:26.316 of that whole dynamic, or a few things. The first 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:29.796 is that the defense has an incentive sometimes to object 0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:32.636 even when they don't actually think they're going to win. 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:35.276 They already know this judge doesn't agree with them because 0:16:35.316 --> 0:16:39.476 they are preserving the record for appeal. They if Sam 0:16:39.516 --> 0:16:42.396 Bankminfried gets convicted, we'll obviously bring this case to the 0:16:42.396 --> 0:16:45.596 Second Circuit and they'll say the judge made legal mistakes. 0:16:45.636 --> 0:16:47.716 He let things in he shouldn't have, he kept things 0:16:47.756 --> 0:16:50.436 out he shouldn't have, and that prejudiced our case so 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:53.596 badly that we need to do over. There is no 0:16:54.316 --> 0:16:57.636 appeal from an acquittal for the government. If he's found 0:16:57.676 --> 0:17:00.516 not guilty, then double jeopardy attaches and that's the end 0:17:00.596 --> 0:17:03.436 of the road. So the government doesn't have really any 0:17:03.476 --> 0:17:06.836 interest in preserving its record in that way because it 0:17:06.876 --> 0:17:09.996 doesn't really matter for academic purposes. So that's number one. 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:14.396 Number two is that I think by and large, defense 0:17:14.436 --> 0:17:16.116 layers try to get away with a little bit more 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:19.036 in the courtroom than government lawyers do, and so it's 0:17:19.116 --> 0:17:21.876 not uncommon for the defense to always be trying to 0:17:21.876 --> 0:17:25.356 push the envelope sneak something in, and so not necessarily 0:17:25.396 --> 0:17:28.156 that surprising to me that you're going to see more 0:17:28.196 --> 0:17:31.756 objections being sustained on the government's side. I think Judge 0:17:31.796 --> 0:17:35.356 Kaplan is also a little bit government friendly and strict 0:17:35.356 --> 0:17:38.276 about the rules of evidence. So again not that surprising 0:17:38.316 --> 0:17:41.556 to me, but interesting to hear what your perception is, 0:17:41.556 --> 0:17:43.796 because of course juries get told all the time, and 0:17:43.876 --> 0:17:46.596 Judge Kaplan told this jury, my job is to just 0:17:46.676 --> 0:17:48.876 rule on these things. You shouldn't read anything into it. 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:51.436 I'm not on any side, but of course common sense 0:17:51.476 --> 0:17:53.596 tells you the jurors are paying very close attention to 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:55.996 what the judge does, and it does affect people's opinions. 0:17:56.676 --> 0:17:58.996 Rebecca, I know this is a ridiculous question. We're three 0:17:59.036 --> 0:18:01.196 days in, but based on what you know so far, 0:18:01.356 --> 0:18:02.036 who's winning. 0:18:02.636 --> 0:18:05.996 Look, I think what you have so far is a 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:10.396 compelling government presentation, that the defense tried to poke some 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:14.716 holes in raise some questions, and they're opening that things 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:17.556 are more complicated than the government has suggested. That there 0:18:17.556 --> 0:18:21.076 are explanations, but so far we haven't heard any of them. 0:18:21.556 --> 0:18:23.956 Part of that is that because there's a burden of proof, 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:26.236 the government goes first, so they're going to present all 0:18:26.276 --> 0:18:28.436 their evidence. The defense may not present any, of course, 0:18:28.476 --> 0:18:31.916 that they will see what they do. But not surprising 0:18:31.916 --> 0:18:34.436 that the government seems like it's ahead at this stage 0:18:34.436 --> 0:18:37.116 of things. But I do think this is a very 0:18:37.156 --> 0:18:39.516 hard battle for Sam Bankman freed because you have someone 0:18:40.036 --> 0:18:43.236 like the second witness, his friend. That person didn't admit 0:18:43.316 --> 0:18:45.836 to any wrongdoing, He hasn't pled guilty at any crimes. 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:50.076 He doesn't have the same kind of incentive as cooperators 0:18:50.076 --> 0:18:53.076 maybe do. And what he says is, look, I believed 0:18:53.076 --> 0:18:55.756 in this, and then I found out this really terrible 0:18:55.796 --> 0:18:57.836 thing that Sam Bankman Freed knew, and it was so 0:18:57.996 --> 0:19:00.116 obvious to me that this was a problem I left 0:19:00.196 --> 0:19:04.356 my job. Really raises questions about how Sam Bankman Freed 0:19:04.396 --> 0:19:06.796 can say that he didn't know that, or he didn't 0:19:06.796 --> 0:19:10.196 appreciate it, or wasn't obvious to him. Not good for him, 0:19:10.276 --> 0:19:12.436 I would say, if I had to bet at this 0:19:12.596 --> 0:19:16.836 very early stage, I think I think the government's probably pretty. 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:20.436 Far out ahead. Rebecca and LJ, thank you both so much. 0:19:20.596 --> 0:19:23.076 We'll be back after the break with one last thing. 0:19:30.196 --> 0:19:32.876 We're back with one last thing, so LJ give us 0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:35.076 some of the color. How weird is it. 0:19:35.076 --> 0:19:36.436 There in the courtroom. 0:19:37.196 --> 0:19:39.356 Yeah, there's a lot of things that are weird. One 0:19:39.356 --> 0:19:41.476 thing that's weird is it's a space where no one 0:19:41.476 --> 0:19:45.596 has any electronics and everyone has notebooks and their writing, 0:19:45.716 --> 0:19:47.716 and it kind of feels like being back in I 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:50.476 don't know, middle school, pre everyone having a cell phone, 0:19:50.516 --> 0:19:52.956 and you know, we're checking in with each other and 0:19:52.956 --> 0:19:55.076 making sure that we wrote down the right thing. And 0:19:55.116 --> 0:19:57.276 I even saw one journalist who said that they saw 0:19:57.396 --> 0:20:00.276 Sam Megmanfreed's parents taking notes, sharing a legal pad and 0:20:00.276 --> 0:20:03.636 taking notes as things were happening. So everyone's writing furiously 0:20:03.716 --> 0:20:05.956 and no one's checking their phones. So that's one thing 0:20:05.956 --> 0:20:06.516 that's different. 0:20:07.556 --> 0:20:10.156 Why is that whether you're in in the courtroom, I 0:20:10.196 --> 0:20:12.516 understand no cameras in the courtroom. But why can't you 0:20:12.636 --> 0:20:15.636 be recording it or taking notes electronically. 0:20:15.676 --> 0:20:17.356 I have no idea. Just when you go into the 0:20:17.396 --> 0:20:19.076 courtroom you have to give up I guess maybe it's 0:20:19.116 --> 0:20:21.916 just to make sure that no one records sneaks a 0:20:22.036 --> 0:20:24.436 phone in, so when you enter the courthouse you have 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:28.036 to go through security. And Judge Coplin is famously particularly 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:31.476 strict about electronics. There's that's kind of something that he's 0:20:31.476 --> 0:20:34.076 known for. He doesn't even have an email address. 0:20:34.876 --> 0:20:36.796 Really yeah, well that's probably yeah, Like. 0:20:36.716 --> 0:20:39.196 He doesn't compline listed on his website. And when I 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:40.916 asked what the best way is to reach him directly, 0:20:40.996 --> 0:20:42.276 I was told to write a letter. 0:20:43.676 --> 0:20:45.876 Which will which he will answer after the trial's over. 0:20:46.316 --> 0:20:49.796 And you know, Michael Lewis's name keeps coming up. I 0:20:49.836 --> 0:20:52.076 mean in the jury selection they asked of the juris 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:55.076 had seen it sixty minutes appearance, and you know, it 0:20:55.116 --> 0:20:57.916 feels he's on trial too, in a funny way, or 0:20:57.956 --> 0:20:58.876 he's in the middle of it. 0:20:59.076 --> 0:21:01.556 Yeah, for sure. I've seen three copies of Going Infinite 0:21:01.636 --> 0:21:05.036