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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you so. Last month,

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Speaker 1: the UK government announced that pregnant people in England would

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Speaker 1: soon be able to have pill induced abortions at home

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Speaker 1: if they are less than ten weeks pregnant. Today, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be getting into the ins and outs of pill

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Speaker 1: induced abortions sometimes called tell abortions, and the shifting regality

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Speaker 1: around them in the UK and in the US. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I have to admit that when um, you suggested

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Speaker 1: this this topic and it was just like tiller abortions,

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what it was. I thought, like,

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Speaker 1: it's people calling our people calling, like robo calling, hello,

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Speaker 1: one hundred abortion. Yes, it is that, like a drone

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Speaker 1: comes to your house and like I mean in the future,

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Speaker 1: who knows. But no a tele abortion or different facets

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Speaker 1: of pill in dis abortions, although I like the idea

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Speaker 1: of calling a robot and them coming to your house

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Speaker 1: and having it that way. But here is what a

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Speaker 1: pill induced abortion is. So, according to a Planned Parenthood quote,

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Speaker 1: abortion pill is the popular name for using two different

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Speaker 1: medicines to end pregnancy, Mytho prift stone and MISO pro stall.

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Speaker 1: Your doctor or nurse will give you the first pill

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Speaker 1: will prit zone at the clinic. Pregnancy needs a hormone

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Speaker 1: called progesterone to grow normally. The pristone blocks your body's

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Speaker 1: own progesterone. You'll also get some antibiotics. The abortion pill

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Speaker 1: is very effective for people who are eight weeks pregnant

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Speaker 1: or less. It works about a hundred times for eight

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Speaker 1: to nine weeks pregnant, it works about nine hundred times

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Speaker 1: for nine to ten weeks. It works about out of

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Speaker 1: a hundred times, So the earlier you take it, the

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Speaker 1: more effective it is. Exactly now. Home abortions were introduced

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Speaker 1: in Scotland and Wales last year. Now the UK government

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Speaker 1: has said that this will be legalized in England before

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Speaker 1: the end of the year. According to the latest figures

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Speaker 1: from Scotland, eight out of ten women are now choosing

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Speaker 1: to take the final pill at home instead of in

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Speaker 1: a clinic. But the Department of Health saying that they

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Speaker 1: were monitoring this new evidence. Yeah, ten, that's a lot.

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Speaker 1: It is a lot. Really. This whole debate seems to

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Speaker 1: come down a personal preference and giving people the option

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Speaker 1: of doing whatever feels right. I know for me, I'm

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Speaker 1: a kind of person who might want to take this

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Speaker 1: second pill with a doctor there um, but not everybody

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Speaker 1: is like that. It really I can understand why so

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Speaker 1: many women are opting to do this in a privacy,

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Speaker 1: in the comfort of their own home, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: the doctor in a clinic where they have to then

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Speaker 1: figure out how they're going to get home from there.

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Speaker 1: And really that that is the crux of why this

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Speaker 1: is such a big deal. So basically, when you're having

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Speaker 1: an early medical abortion, you're getting these two pills roughly

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Speaker 1: two days apart, and it's that second pill that triggers

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Speaker 1: the abortion. Right now, women in England have to take

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Speaker 1: this pill in a physically in a clinic under the

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Speaker 1: direct supervision of a doctor, so a doctor or a

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Speaker 1: medical professional has to watch you put it in your mouth,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, you get on the train, you

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Speaker 1: get in your car, whatever however you're getting home. You

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Speaker 1: go home and the body does its thing at home. Now,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, this process has been proven to be

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Speaker 1: more or less relatively safe, but that doesn't mean it's

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Speaker 1: going to be comfortable. People who are taking this pill

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Speaker 1: often experienced symptoms like pain, nausea, vomiting, and bleeding. And

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Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of folks, you want to

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Speaker 1: be at home, in bed or wherever, wherever it's comfortable

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Speaker 1: for you to do this. You don't want to be

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Speaker 1: in the back of a cab, on a subway, on

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Speaker 1: a train, um, bleeding and experiencing the symptoms of this

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Speaker 1: abortion from this pill that you were to take at

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Speaker 1: some place other than your bed. You know, yeah, I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: I feel like that is something that you would want

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Speaker 1: to do somewhere that you're more comfortable. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: can see if you're worried about it, that maybe you

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Speaker 1: would want to be in a clinic. But um, either way,

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Speaker 1: I think eventually your compleness to get home and sort

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Speaker 1: of deal with this exactly, I might want to do

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Speaker 1: this in a clinic, But I think that's what it

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Speaker 1: really comes down to, is personal choice. We shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: saying you have to do it in a clinic if

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Speaker 1: that's not where you feel comfortable. You know, I can

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Speaker 1: understand the inclination because it's about safety and this and that,

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Speaker 1: but so many of these as we know, so many

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Speaker 1: of these decisions purport to be about keeping women safe,

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Speaker 1: but they're really about taking away women's choices, and we

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Speaker 1: should be giving women more choices. We should be giving

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Speaker 1: women the freedom to decide what makes their own body

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Speaker 1: feel safe and comfortable when they're going through a process.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be painful and that might be unpleasant,

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Speaker 1: and we shouldn't be saying there's only one right way

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Speaker 1: to do this, because that's it's not that's not what

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Speaker 1: we should be doing. And so I think this is

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Speaker 1: one of those situations that we talked about in our

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Speaker 1: episode on benevolent sexism, where it's under this guise of

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Speaker 1: protecting women, but really it's about taking away choice and

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Speaker 1: they're doing it for reasons that are not grounded in

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Speaker 1: medical science. Yeah, and for women that don't live anywhere

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Speaker 1: near a clinic that does abortions, this could be huge

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that a little bit

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Speaker 1: more later. According to official government figures, about eight thousand

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Speaker 1: abortions occur each year in England, with four and every

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Speaker 1: five being a medical abortion. People can start experiencing the

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Speaker 1: abortion and as soon as thirty minutes, which were some

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Speaker 1: means experiencing symptoms while on public transportation, are in a

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Speaker 1: camp home, which is not ideal at all. Not ideal.

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Speaker 1: Um That's what happened to Claudia Craig, twenty year old

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Speaker 1: women's rights campaign or an activist, after she made the

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Speaker 1: decision to terminate her pregnancy yet seven weeks last year,

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Speaker 1: she was forced to go the trauma of starting to

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Speaker 1: bleed on her way home from the hospital and the

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Speaker 1: back of a stranger's taxi cab. Here's how she describes it.

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Speaker 1: It was the shock of it all that was a

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Speaker 1: bit scary, and they're not quite making it into the

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Speaker 1: into the bathroom and onto the toilets. Was really unfortunate.

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Speaker 1: It would have been nice if that could have been avoided.

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Speaker 1: The whole way through your made to feel like you're

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Speaker 1: doing something that isn't quite right. There's no reason for that.

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Speaker 1: There was no reason for that kind of uncomfortable, unpleasant experience.

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Speaker 1: You know, you might already be feeling a lot of

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Speaker 1: feelings after getting an abortion, and it's like, why make

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Speaker 1: that experience. People deserve to have medical procedures of all

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Speaker 1: kinds be as comfortable as they can be. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're get a medical procedure, whether it's an abortion

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Speaker 1: or a tooth pulled, odds are you're going to be anxious,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna be nervous, You're gonna have a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 1: Medical procedure should be done in a ways that make

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Speaker 1: people feel more at ease, not less at ease. And

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Speaker 1: I can't think of anything less comfortable than bleeding in

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Speaker 1: a stranger's cab trying to get home. It's up there

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Speaker 1: for sure. And because you might feel that anxiety after

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Speaker 1: taking the pill, the discomfort could be heightened. Jane Dixon

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Speaker 1: a consultant and sexual and reprojective health care at aner

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Speaker 1: and Bevin University Health Board. She believes the second pill

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Speaker 1: could be taken by women at home. She says the

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Speaker 1: pain and discomfort experienced are equivalent to a natural miscarriage,

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Speaker 1: but pain sensations can be heightened by anxiety and uncertainty.

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Speaker 1: This is why being able to manage the experience yourself,

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Speaker 1: when and where you want, with the emotional support you

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Speaker 1: want is likely to improve women's perceptions of pain. And

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Speaker 1: I have to point out the decision that England made

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Speaker 1: to let people take the second pill at home wasn't

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Speaker 1: just a choice or a ruling. Like most kinds of

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Speaker 1: social progress, the change in England was the result of

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Speaker 1: campaigners and advocates making a lot of noise and speaking

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Speaker 1: up about this issue. The British Pregnancy Advisory Service, a

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Speaker 1: UK abortion provider, has long been campaigning and advocating for

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Speaker 1: home abortions to be legalized. Clara Murphy, it's director of

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Speaker 1: external Affairs told the Son there is no clinical reason

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Speaker 1: to deny women the option of using this medication at home.

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Speaker 1: It is safe and effective to do so, which means

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Speaker 1: the only grounds refusing are political. And I think she's

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Speaker 1: completely right that, you know, the medical we should be

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Speaker 1: making rules and regulations along medical science. And if the

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Speaker 1: medical science says there is no reason why you can't

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Speaker 1: take this pull at home, it is safe, it's effective,

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Speaker 1: might make you more comfortable do it. And the law

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Speaker 1: saying no do it in a clinic and bleed out

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Speaker 1: in a taxi cab. And I think I think she's

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Speaker 1: exactly right that if it's not grounded in medical science,

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Speaker 1: then it also be political, must be social. What other

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Speaker 1: explanation could there be? Yeah? The World Health Organization figures

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Speaker 1: reveal that administering the second pill at home has no

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Speaker 1: adverse effects on the outcome of a termination. Between of

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Speaker 1: pregnancies were successfully terminated when it was administered at home now.

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Speaker 1: Because this law was preventing women in England from taking

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Speaker 1: the second pill at home, some people were resorting to

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Speaker 1: illegally buying it online and taking it at home. There.

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Speaker 1: Over the past three years, drug enforcement officers have seized

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Speaker 1: almost ten thousand sets of abortion pills on their way

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Speaker 1: to addresses. In Britain, the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory

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Speaker 1: Agency or the m h r A, told the BBC.

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Speaker 1: Kate Gethri, who works for the service Women on web

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Speaker 1: dot org, which helps women who want to buy the

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Speaker 1: tablets online, and told the BBC that two thousand, two

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Speaker 1: hundred and twelve women had contacted her asking for abortion

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Speaker 1: pills in the past eighteen months. For four months, Women

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Speaker 1: on Web tracked how many women were illegally asking for

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Speaker 1: these pills for four months, and of the one hundred

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Speaker 1: eighty women who responded during that four month time, about

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Speaker 1: half that they had difficulty accessing the NHS abortion services.

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Speaker 1: Other reasons they gave for trying to get these pills

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Speaker 1: illegally were things like distance and waiting times, and other

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Speaker 1: things like does not being able to get childcare or

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Speaker 1: time at work. For instance, Linda not her real name,

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Speaker 1: a thirty one year old living in Scotland said, I

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Speaker 1: already have three kids and I am a single working mum.

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Speaker 1: I do not have the funds to pay for the

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Speaker 1: childcare while in the hospital. I really need to do

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Speaker 1: this in my own home. Another of women that they

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Speaker 1: were worried their abortion might not be kept confidential and

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Speaker 1: eighteen percent wanted to keep their abortion a secret from

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Speaker 1: a violent partner or controlling family member. So there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of reasons why besides comfort, that people would want

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Speaker 1: to do this at home, as this illustrates, and UM,

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Speaker 1: I do think that it's medically safe. It should be

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Speaker 1: available for women who want to go that way. UM

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Speaker 1: and we do have some a little bit of ripple

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Speaker 1: ripple effects out to the United States that we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about of tele abortion, But first we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break for a word from our

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Speaker 1: sponsor m and we're back, thank you, sponsor. Okay. In

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Speaker 1: the United States, at home abortions UM are a new battlefield,

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Speaker 1: especially with the prospect of an increasingly conservative Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: and uncertainty around Roe v. Wade, which is why many

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Speaker 1: turned to tele abortion. That's right, abortion to be a

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Speaker 1: telemedicine has been available in the United States since two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, when the first formal program began in Iowa.

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Speaker 1: So how this works, Like, what makes this the tele

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Speaker 1: part of a tele abort? And a patient in one

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Speaker 1: clinic confers via video conference with a doctor and another

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Speaker 1: clinic and then receives abortion pills. Now, this satisfies a

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Speaker 1: federal requirement that the doctor quote dispense the pill to

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Speaker 1: a patient in a clinic office or hospital. Video conferencing

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Speaker 1: is also a useful way to sort of women in

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Speaker 1: remote or rural areas, but opponents have responded quickly, prohibiting

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Speaker 1: abortion via telemedicine in twenty states. In one of those states, Iowa,

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Speaker 1: the state Supreme Court reversed the band. Yeah, And as

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Speaker 1: I've mentioned before on this show, I think I grew

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Speaker 1: big deal it was when there was talk of our

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Speaker 1: hospital closing because there were no other There were no

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Speaker 1: other closer hospitals, I mean that were like reasonably close.

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Speaker 1: And I hear so often about like medical deserts where

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Speaker 1: there's nothing nothing nearby, And I think that video conferencing

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Speaker 1: and these other ways that we can connect to healthcare

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Speaker 1: and maybe get an abortion pill. It can be extremely useful, definitely.

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Speaker 1: I used to work for a news organization called Rewired

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Speaker 1: News and they've been doing a lot of interesting um

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Speaker 1: work around reproductive healthcare, especially in places like the Ozarks,

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Speaker 1: um and the Appalachia, And honestly, we should do a

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Speaker 1: whole episode about this. But the different alternative ways of

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Speaker 1: getting healthcare to people who need it. One, I'm shocked

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Speaker 1: at the resilience that that people have gone to get healthcare.

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Speaker 1: There's there's things like vans that will drive to you

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Speaker 1: to give you basic services. Um, there's video conferencing, but

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Speaker 1: to it just reminds us that there are medical landscape

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Speaker 1: is so severely lacking in so many places, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of times these places that you just described, these

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Speaker 1: rural communities, places like the Ozarks, Appalachia, that's where the

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Speaker 1: need is greatest. And so it just it it boggles

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Speaker 1: the mine. I'm I'm uh full disclosure. I am recording

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Speaker 1: this in New or New York City right now, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going on a trip tomorrow. And I was able

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Speaker 1: to walk out of my hotel in New York and

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Speaker 1: there were four urgent care clinics on the street. So

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Speaker 1: it was like I was looking at three of them.

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Speaker 1: I went into one, I waited for ten minutes, and

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Speaker 1: I was out right, Like when you compare that to

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Speaker 1: the experience of someone who is living in the ozarks

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Speaker 1: or a rural community, I mean, it's just it boggles

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Speaker 1: the mine, you know, And everybody needs healthcare, everybody gets sick,

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Speaker 1: everybody needs needs care at some time. But just the

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Speaker 1: inability of folks to access really basic services, it's it's really,

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Speaker 1: it's it's sad, it's it's a failure on the part

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Speaker 1: of our country. Yeah, I mean people were afraid when

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Speaker 1: the hospital possibly was going to shut down. People who

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Speaker 1: were really I could just hear in their voice the

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Speaker 1: anxiety of what would we do if it happened I

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Speaker 1: have this issue or of that issue. Yeah, I can't afford.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't have the time. I can't afford

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Speaker 1: to like drive this far to the next hospital. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There are places in the United States where if you

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Speaker 1: want to get an abortion that you have to travel

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Speaker 1: so far just to get too clicks because they're shutting down.

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Speaker 1: And again, when we have these places where, like you said, Annie,

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Speaker 1: just getting access to healthcare is such a tough thing,

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Speaker 1: we should be looking at ways to make that less tough,

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Speaker 1: and so you might be thinking, well, then why don't

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Speaker 1: they just make the abortion pill that you can get

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Speaker 1: it over the counter. If it's so hard, like, why

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Speaker 1: maybe they should deregulate it where people can get access

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Speaker 1: to it if it's safe and that's something people need.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what we're doing. We're doing the opposite. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: A lawsuit file last year argues medication abortions should be

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Speaker 1: offered by prescription at the local drug store, and this

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Speaker 1: could amount to a seismic shift in abortion access. Kauai

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Speaker 1: doctor Graham Chilius, who bought the suit with the American

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Speaker 1: Civil Liberties Union, the a c l U, and several

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Speaker 1: healthcare associations, called the restriction medically unnecessary and burdensome because

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Speaker 1: Kauai lacks a single abortion clinic. Chilia said he'd like

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Speaker 1: to stock MIFO pristone, but cannot because of the f

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Speaker 1: d A restriction. Quote, So if one of my patients

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Speaker 1: wants to enter pregnancy, she has to fly to a

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Speaker 1: different island one fifty miles away to get this care.

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Speaker 1: In the United States, the FDA regulates mif A prix

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Speaker 1: under a set of rules called risk Evaluation and Mitigation

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Speaker 1: Strategy are e m s. Because of these mandates, only

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Speaker 1: healthcare providers who have pre registered with the manufacturer of

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Speaker 1: mio Prex and stock the abortion pill in their health

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Speaker 1: care facility may hand patients the medication. In a paper

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Speaker 1: titled sixteen years of over Regulation, Time to Unburdened mill

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Speaker 1: for Prex, published in April in the New England Journal

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Speaker 1: of Medicine, leading clinicians and public health x or argue

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Speaker 1: that the FDA restriction was medically unnecessary, and a CLU

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Speaker 1: attorneys noted that leading medical groups, including the American Congress

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Speaker 1: of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making the pill available by

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Speaker 1: prescription at pharmacies. Quote overwhelming medical experience and decades of

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Speaker 1: clinical experience show medication abortion to be safe and effective

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Speaker 1: method to end of pregnancy. Dr Paul Blumenthal, director of

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Speaker 1: the Gynecology Service at Standard University, said in a statement,

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Speaker 1: there is simply no medical justification for these restrictions and

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Speaker 1: they create needless and harmful burdens for women seeking this care.

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Speaker 1: Um again but that that sounds so much like what's

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Speaker 1: going on, what was going on in England, where it's

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Speaker 1: clear from medical professionals and medical research that there is

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Speaker 1: not a reason for creating more barriers and more rules

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Speaker 1: around how people can get access to this care in

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Speaker 1: the way that is right for them. If we understand

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Speaker 1: that some folks are in situations where there aren't ton

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Speaker 1: of clinics, or maybe you're just busy and you can't

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Speaker 1: get to a clinic, we should be making access to

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Speaker 1: this care easier, and these doctors agree, but we're not

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Speaker 1: doing that, Nope. And because of that, people have resorted

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Speaker 1: to buying the pills online, just like they do in

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Speaker 1: the UK. And we're going to talk more about that

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Speaker 1: when we get back from one more quick break forward

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor m and we're back, Thank you sponsor.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, here in the United States, just like in

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Speaker 1: the United Kingdom, women are trying to get these pills

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Speaker 1: by buying them online. Olga Chasm at The Atlantic did

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Speaker 1: a really comprehensive piece back in July called Alitale abortion

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Speaker 1: will mean Abortion by Mail that summarized a lot of

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Speaker 1: the current climate around obtaining abortion pills online. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: piece is fascinating and I cannot recommend that folks readed enough.

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Speaker 1: We'll link out to it in the show notes, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's really really interesting in terms of where we're

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Speaker 1: at with abortion by pill and where we're going. So

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Speaker 1: the reasons why women in the United States might be

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Speaker 1: looking to get the pill online are pretty much what

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Speaker 1: you might expect and are very similar to what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the UK, cost restrictive laws, and personal preference.

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Speaker 1: Abigail Keane, an assistant professor of public Affairs at the

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Speaker 1: University of Texas Austin, conducted interviews with thirty two people

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Speaker 1: from twenty states who sought out abortion pills online for

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Speaker 1: a study called Why US Residents Seek Abortion Medication Online.

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Speaker 1: She found that women turned to mail order abortions because

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Speaker 1: the clinic based abortion was too expensive, or because state

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Speaker 1: restrictions around abortion like waiting periods and ultrasound laws were

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Speaker 1: too onerous, and some just preferred the privacy and convenience

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Speaker 1: of doing their own abortion at home. But as you

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Speaker 1: might imagine, buying pills online, especially if there's kind of

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Speaker 1: this aura of secrets the around it um can be

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Speaker 1: a little tricky. It can be a bit of a risk.

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Speaker 1: You don't know what you're gonna get, is what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to say. If you've ever bought like an outfit

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Speaker 1: from one of those very cheap but very suspicious looking

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Speaker 1: websites online where it's like a picture of Chloe Kardashian

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Speaker 1: looking amazing and addressed and that same dresses and then

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Speaker 1: you buy it. I've had that experience. Mine was a

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Speaker 1: pleather leggings that did not look anything like what I

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Speaker 1: was what I was promised. If you've ever had that experience,

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Speaker 1: as I'm sure some of you have, buying abortion pills

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Speaker 1: online can be very similar. Um. This report talked about

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Speaker 1: how the websites are often riddle with typos, that transactions

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Speaker 1: don't seem very trustworthy. And this is not an experience

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Speaker 1: that sort of, you know, inspires confidence in your abortion. No,

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Speaker 1: I have to say one one thing that I immediately

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Speaker 1: gets me like, raises my my haunches. It's like my

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Speaker 1: Spidey sense. That's it. Um Is it like typos and

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Speaker 1: font choice and any kind of like you might want

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Speaker 1: to keep this a secret, like any sort of thing

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Speaker 1: like that. I'm a little on edge, a little suspicious.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say I'm probably not the only one. There

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Speaker 1: was a study published earlier this year called exploring the

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Speaker 1: Feasibility of obtaining mythopris Stone and Misa prostaal from the internet.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Raymond, a senior medical associate at the research organization Ginuity,

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Speaker 1: googled phrases like by abortion pills online, which it seems

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Speaker 1: like a pretty good phrase to type in first step one.

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Speaker 1: The researchers ended up ordering eighteen of the pill combinations

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Speaker 1: from sixteen different websites, none of which required a prescription.

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Speaker 1: The pills came from India, where there is a large

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Speaker 1: generic drug industry. Shipments costs between a hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: to three hundred and sixty dollars, and the packages took

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Speaker 1: between three days three weeks to arrive. Two buyers received

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Speaker 1: troubling communications from product vendors. One warned about the legality

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Speaker 1: of purchasing online quote please do not share this info

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Speaker 1: with any other side because investigation team is searching the

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Speaker 1: details for this type of medicine. And in the second case,

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Speaker 1: the vendor complained that he was unable to get payment

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Speaker 1: from the online payment platform and threatened to withhold shipment

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Speaker 1: until the buyer paid another way. After some convincing, he

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Speaker 1: finally sent the product. In addition, one buyer who paid

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Speaker 1: with Western Union received two fraud alert calls, one from

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Speaker 1: Western Union advising against purchasing pharmaceuticals online, and another from

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Speaker 1: her credit card company. Raymond also noted that some of

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Speaker 1: the blister packs of pills arrived broken. She says this

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Speaker 1: might be due to the fact that the shippers are

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Speaker 1: afraid that custom service would be able to feel with

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Speaker 1: the packaging and see that there are pills in there,

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Speaker 1: so they crushed the blister pack, which, if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to get medicine, it's a little worrying. It's a little troublesome.

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Speaker 1: Although the mythoprit his own pills contain the expect of

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Speaker 1: auto medications, most of the pills contained less than a

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Speaker 1: labeled dose. Now they might still work even at a

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Speaker 1: lower dose, she says. But what's more, none of the

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Speaker 1: pills came with any instructions or how to use them.

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Speaker 1: So this experience does not seem like one that is

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Speaker 1: necessarily on the up and up. Will say, but it

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Speaker 1: is an experience that people in the United States turned to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and um. Women can be arrested for trying to

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Speaker 1: end pregnancies outside of a medical capacity. The s I

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Speaker 1: a legal team, a group of lawyers who specialize in

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Speaker 1: women who induce their own abortions. Knows of twenty one

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Speaker 1: people who have been arrested or prosecuted for ending their

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Speaker 1: pregnancies outside a medical setting or for helping someone else

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Speaker 1: to do it. It might be an undercount since the

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Speaker 1: organization relies on news reports to track these cases. The

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Speaker 1: charges brought against women whose self abord can range from

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Speaker 1: child abuse to the abuse of a corpse to a

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Speaker 1: failure to report a death, says Jill Adams. She is

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Speaker 1: si AS chief strategist. So what's interesting is none of

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Speaker 1: these women were actually prosecuted simply for the act of

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Speaker 1: buying abortion pills specifically, but Adams points out that fine

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Speaker 1: pills online and even googling things like buy abortion pills

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Speaker 1: can leave a paper trail that has then used as

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Speaker 1: evidence in these cases. In seven states, self induced abortion

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Speaker 1: is illegal, and you might have heard in A woman

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Speaker 1: in Indiana named Pervy Patel was sentenced to twenty years

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Speaker 1: in prison for fet aside after she allegedly used abortion

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Speaker 1: pill she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed for fetus had been

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Speaker 1: born alive and she allowed it to die. Her conviction

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Speaker 1: was later overturned in an appeal, so we can kind

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Speaker 1: of get a sense that this is a desperate situation

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people out there. I mean, people

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Speaker 1: don't just turned these fishy online websites that could, you know,

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Speaker 1: get you arrested for no reason for fun. This is

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Speaker 1: clearly a very very desperate situation for a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks out there. And yeah, I think that's why it's

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Speaker 1: sort of important to get a lay of the land

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Speaker 1: in terms of where where we're at with this issue

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Speaker 1: in the United States, as it seems like we are

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Speaker 1: getting closer and closer and closer to a more conservative

432
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. If Supreme Court Justice nominee Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed,

433
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: it's not impossible that Roe v. Wade could be overturned.

434
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: You know, we could be in a very very different

435
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: landscape when it comes to reproductive justice, of reproductive freedom

436
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: and reproductive access um very soon. So it's important to

437
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: understand sort of where we're at and where we could

438
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: be on this issue. Yeah, absolutely, and we need to.

439
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're making it where women are seeking

440
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: out these illegal pills because other options are closed to them,

441
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: or because they're afraid that they they will be closed

442
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: to them, there's just a lot of things that this

443
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: should get us thinking about and talking about and things

444
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: that we could improve so that this isn't happening. That

445
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: what is already a difficult medical experience medical choice um

446
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be more difficult. That's really the thing

447
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: that gets me is that any medical procedure is kind

448
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: of a drag. We should not be making it more

449
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: difficult to access less comfortable. We should only be regulating

450
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: things that are you know, medically sound, based on medical information,

451
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: not anything else. And I just people deserve to have

452
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: their medical procedures, whether it's an abortion or an appendectomy,

453
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: people deserve to have them with dignity and in comfort. Agreed. Agreed.

454
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 1: We would love to hear from from folks in the

455
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: UK about their experience, if they have, if they have

456
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: any insights or thoughts on that. And speaking of hearing

457
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: from listeners, it's time for listener mail. Debbie Route. I'm

458
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: a service engineer for a high end nanotechnology company and

459
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: my job has me on the road literally every day.

460
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: I'm home every other weekend most of the time, and

461
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: spend more time in airports than I do in my

462
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: own house. I traveled domestically as well as internationally, and

463
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: typically alone, which I love. The question I get most

464
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: often from friends and family who think I'm crazy, is

465
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: but how do you eat? Do you eat at restaurants alone?

466
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: Insert horrified phase here, Yes I eat food. Sometimes I

467
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: eat food and restaurants, and yes I eat food and

468
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: restaurants alone. I don't get why this is such a

469
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: huge hang up for people. You know what you get

470
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 1: when you're eating alone. Whatever you're damn well please, and

471
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: that's in all caps. I want to eat the same

472
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: Chinese takeaway four days in a row. I'm gonna eat

473
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: those delicious spring rolls four days in a row. If

474
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: I want to go out for a fancy dinner, I

475
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: get to pick the bottle of wine that I really want,

476
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: not share the best bites of food with anyone, and

477
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: have a wonderful evening chatting with the staff, enjoying a

478
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: great view of whatever city I'm in. I find that,

479
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: once you get over yourself and realize that no one

480
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: is judging you, and if they are, they have way

481
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: too much time and energy on their hands, eating out

482
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: alone is really a relaxing experience. There's something so wonderfully

483
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: luxurious about sitting alone in a lovely restaurant, drinking glass

484
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: of wine, snacking on top of us and not worrying

485
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: about keeping up a conversation. Are looking sexy while eating

486
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: You can take as long as you want to finish

487
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 1: your meal, order nothing but espresso and dessert, and just

488
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: enjoy where you are. Dining alone is my time to

489
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: unwind after a crazy week, and I love it. Yes,

490
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: there are plenty of hassles that come with traveling while female.

491
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: Don't get me started in the Middle East, But as

492
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: long as you go into it with the right mindset,

493
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: solo travel is safe and empowering experience that I encourage

494
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: every woman to undertake. I love this because I get

495
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: that all the time to um eating alone as if

496
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? How can you do it?

497
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: And I actually remember when UM, there was this big

498
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: kerfuffle of like us, I don't know, articles coming out

499
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: about the needles are eating alone? What's it going on?

500
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: Societies ending? Um? But it it can be. It can

501
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: be a really lovely and relaxing experience. Sometimes it's hard

502
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: to get over that first initial like table for one, UM,

503
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: but I I actually had a wonderful experience with this

504
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: recently that turned into not eating alone, but because I

505
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: was sitting alone. People came and sat with me that

506
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: I'd never met and never would have talked to in

507
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: my life, and it it worked out wonderfully. So you

508
00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: never know, um, that it can be really wonderful experience. Yeah,

509
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I our lives, thank you for writing in our Our

510
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 1: lives sound very similar. Um. I have to travel domestically

511
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: quite a bit for just for work stuff. So I'm

512
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: often in a on a train or on a plane,

513
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: and so I am often in new cities, often eating alone.

514
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: And you really, like you said, like the after the

515
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: initial sort of whatever anxiety you feel about it, you

516
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: really get used to it and it's quite a lovely experience,

517
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: you know. I a lot of my good friends are

518
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: working the restaurant industry because I so often eat alone,

519
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: and it's like you make friends and blah blah blah. Um.

520
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: I really enjoy it too. Honestly, some of the letters

521
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: that we've got it makes me think that we should

522
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: do an entire episode on just women alone, you know,

523
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: traveling alone, eating alone? What are other things people do alone?

524
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: Um that people think that's weird? Yeah, I mean I

525
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: think that so many women wrote in about doing things

526
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: that society says that you should do with a partner alone,

527
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: And I think I think there's something like going to

528
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: the movies alone, which which is like my favorite activity

529
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: in the world. Oh my god, I am. I am

530
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: in heaven. Not like my version if I have no

531
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: plans on a weekend, My version of heaven is to

532
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: pick two we either to like weird movies that no

533
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: one would ever want to see except for me. And

534
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: maybe that's maybe that's show, uh, like a ten hour

535
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: documentary about the Holocaust. Maybe that's Mama Mia to like, um,

536
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: you know, it could be it could be anything, but

537
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: just going to see a movie, sneaking in my candy

538
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: and just like being in heaven not having to look

539
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: at my partner and being like, oh my god, I

540
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: dragged them to this and they hate it and they

541
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: hate me and this is awkward and it's a bad day.

542
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. Like being free of all of that

543
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: and just like being in a movie alone, liking it

544
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: or not liking it. It's like I'm in like I'm

545
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: in heaven. It's my it's my happy place. But I

546
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: do think there is something around doing these things that we,

547
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: especially women, have been conditioned for so long that you

548
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: do them with a romantic partner, and if you do

549
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: them alone, you're a freak. People are reclaiming that and saying, actually,

550
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: I love eating alone. Actually I love traveling alone. Actually

551
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: I love going to the movies alone. Actually I love

552
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: doing sports alone. You know. Yeah, for sure, we're definitely

553
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: moving that way. And it has been interesting because it

554
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: is sort of younger folks doing it more, I think,

555
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,239
Speaker 1: or at least that was what the starting wave was.

556
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: And so when those when I was sitting eating alone recently,

557
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: the people that came and sat with me were these

558
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: older gentlemen who could not fathom he would choose to

559
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: eat alone. But we actually we had a great conversation

560
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: from that, and really it was a great experience. It

561
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: was a great experience. Yeah, I mean, I do think

562
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: that if you look at the numbers we're getting, we're

563
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: marrying less and less and things like things that used

564
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: to be markers of kind of being successful adults, marriage,

565
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: car ownership, homeownership, we are sort of less tether to

566
00:32:58,680 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: those things, and so I think that has something to

567
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: you with it. It's a shifting, the shifting priorities of

568
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: young people, and that young people are much more likely

569
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: to prioritize experiences over things, and so you know, we

570
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: would value like a lavish trip more than you know, say,

571
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: owning a BMW. And I think I think it's just

572
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: I think it's just a reimagining of how we live

573
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: our lives and actually relates to our next letter, Samantha wrote,

574
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: I just listened to the podcast about solo traveling. I

575
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: was in France at the same time as you. It

576
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: was really exciting seeing your Instagram post as I was

577
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: finished about my first solo journey and my first time abroad.

578
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: I spent two half weeks in Switzerland and then two

579
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: weeks in South France solo before meeting my parents in Paris.

580
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: It definitely felt like a once in a lifetime opportunity

581
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: that passed me by before for many reasons, and I'm

582
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: really glad I finally got to do it. I enjoyed

583
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: listening to the podcast about how you and Annie talked

584
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: about society not being okay with women traveling solo. I've

585
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: done some internship stuff around the US, so a lot

586
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: of my family members and family friends assume that I

587
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: was doing another internship thing, or at least going with

588
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: a friend when I responded to the who are you

589
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: going with question with the words myself, I always got

590
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: a confused look, and maybe the words you're braver than

591
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: I am. While flattering, I also feel conflicted about this

592
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: kind of reaction. I'm not entirely sure why it bothered me,

593
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: although it is in part because I was always labeled

594
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: as a shy kid, and despite me growing up, it

595
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: seems like everyone is surprised when I do something adventurous.

596
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: I also want to say, in a cheesy way, I

597
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: do feel like this trip changed me too. I feel

598
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: more confident, particularly in social situations, and more excited about

599
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: future possibilities to try new things, meet new people, and

600
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: see new places. I'm currently in my second year of

601
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: working toward a PhD in math, and I'm hoping this

602
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: new confidence will stick with me through the challenges I

603
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: faced this semester um. If it sounds like I'm smiling

604
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: my head off while I'm reading this letter, it's because

605
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: I am. Um, Samantha, thank you so much for writing in.

606
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: It's so cool that we were in France together alone

607
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: for at the same time. It's almost like we were

608
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: there together, but you know, apart um. Yeah, I mean

609
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: so will travel. I completely agree that it did make

610
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: me feel more confident, and I'm I love the idea

611
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: of you sort of shirking this label of like, oh,

612
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: you're just a shy, sweet kid and say no, I

613
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: can I can do adventurous things. I can be by myself.

614
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: I can talk to strangers in Paris and make friends

615
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: with them. And I really really hope that you bring

616
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: that good energy into your studies. It it sounds like

617
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: you're kind of poised to really tap into whatever that

618
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: that thing that made you feel so confident and good

619
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: on your own in France. It sounds like you're poised

620
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: to bring that back to your to your real life

621
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 1: and to your work as a PhD student. By the way,

622
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,479
Speaker 1: PhD and math very rad. Yeah, this is this letter

623
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: just makes me very happy. Yes, um, I've gotten that,

624
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: Like you're braver than I am response to And I

625
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: think the reason for me that it's so annoying in

626
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: a weird way because it's almost like dismissive, as if

627
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: it just comes more naturally to you. I don't know.

628
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: I I appreciate like the thought behind it, but I

629
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: understand the kind of weirdness there of like I guess

630
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: I guess, but thanks to both of them for writing in.

631
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: If you would like to write you as you can.

632
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com,

633
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: and as always, you can find us on social media

634
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: or on Instagram stuff Mom Ever Told You, and on

635
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And thanks to our producer

636
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: Andrew Howard