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Speaker 1: So welcome to the first of our Armstrong and Getty podcast.

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Speaker 1: We probably need a jazz your name for this, but

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Speaker 1: it's going to be our long form conversations with people

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Speaker 1: we like. Yeah, I kind of like it as a

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Speaker 1: as a as a standalone name. It's very very down

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Speaker 1: to earth. Well, it's descriptive. It's like, you know, Boston's

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Speaker 1: first album was called Boston, I get it, you know,

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Speaker 1: or they're from Atlanta when you're getting that's right. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: this is our our our our long form podcast, and

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Speaker 1: our our first guest is a good old friend personally

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Speaker 1: and professionally. Tim sander for Vice president for Litigation at

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Speaker 1: the Goldwater Institute. He also spent fifteen years at the

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Speaker 1: Pacific Legal Foundation, an organization which were big, big fans of.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of Cornerstone of Liberty, Property Rights in

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Speaker 1: twenty first Century America. Co authored with his fabulous wife

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Speaker 1: Christina Sanderford, The Right to Earn a Living the Conscience

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Speaker 1: of the Constitution, a wonderful new Ish book about Frederick

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Speaker 1: Douglas called Frederick Douglas Self Made man um and in

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Speaker 1: a great writer and thinker. Pay Tim, Hey, so you

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Speaker 1: have you want to you want somebody who can just

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Speaker 1: keep talking and talking and talking for a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of time, and you invite me. I get it now,

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Speaker 1: I see what you're talking. Well, you've got the depth

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Speaker 1: of knowledge. But were you aware maybe you were aware

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Speaker 1: this this Some people call it the intellectual dark net

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Speaker 1: that exists out there, and I like that name because

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Speaker 1: it's it's kind of off the grid, but there are

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Speaker 1: millions of people doing it listening to these podcasts and

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Speaker 1: one of the from YouTube videos that sort of thing

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Speaker 1: very big. Yeah, But one of the things that seems

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Speaker 1: to be a theme is they're not clearly one thing

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Speaker 1: these conversations. It's not like it is at all of

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Speaker 1: regular radio or TV where you tune in and you

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Speaker 1: immediately say, is this a liberal show or a conservative show?

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Speaker 1: These long form podcasts you can't really figure out with

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Speaker 1: the guests are, which, by the way, is the way

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Speaker 1: normal people are, you know. Yeah, that's the thing I think.

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Speaker 1: I think the term dark net is ridiculous. I think

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Speaker 1: gets an attempt to try and make it sound like

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Speaker 1: it's some shadowy conspiracy of evil capitalists. But the reality

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Speaker 1: is that with the availability of all sorts of different

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Speaker 1: kinds of media. Now we're seeing the the subdivision of

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Speaker 1: of our conversations into a finer and finer degree, so

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Speaker 1: that you have more intense audiences that might be smaller,

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Speaker 1: but their motive more devoted. And you saw that, for instance,

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Speaker 1: when cable television first came out, the quality of television

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Speaker 1: drama improved because you could have longer form stories with

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Speaker 1: more in depth characters and complicated plots and things because

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Speaker 1: you weren't going for a larger audience. We're going for

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Speaker 1: a more loyal audience, and so you could explore things

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Speaker 1: more deeply, like with HBO. And so I think that's

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing. That's pretty good. Maybe that maybe this

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Speaker 1: is this podcast thing or whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 1: is like, um, it's like cable cable tv has been

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Speaker 1: to network shows well, and of course a lot of

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Speaker 1: it's going to be terrible just for the because of

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Speaker 1: the base a rule, everything is crap and so most

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Speaker 1: of the most hell yeah, everything starts from there. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. It strikes me as a guy

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Speaker 1: who's raised raised a passle of kids. The more kids

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Speaker 1: you have to appeal to it meal time, the more

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Speaker 1: likely you're gonna get bland crap, and I think you

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Speaker 1: know the same as true of virtually any sort of entertainment.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is probably a super broad question on

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Speaker 1: this topic, but what the hell, um, where do you

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Speaker 1: think we are in terms of the exchange of ideas,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the United States, because moronic cable news yelling

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Speaker 1: is at an all time high. On the other one,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and it's it's unforgivable, it's criminal in its stupidity,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's dishonesty. At the same time, though, you

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Speaker 1: have a phenomenon like the one we've been talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have no idea. I mean, see your next book.

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Speaker 1: We have we have at our fingertips. We have these

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Speaker 1: devices in our pockets that we can use to connect

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Speaker 1: to Wikipedia and have the entire world's knowledge at our

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Speaker 1: fingertips and all of the great music and art and literature.

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Speaker 1: And instead we mostly at our at our best, we're

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Speaker 1: sending each other videos of kittens. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: that it's a weird phenomenon where the curve is flattening out,

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Speaker 1: so that instead of having a few people who have

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Speaker 1: access to a tremendous amount of information and they're the

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Speaker 1: recognized intellectual leaders of the culture. Instead, everybody has a

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Speaker 1: slightly more improved knowledge of the world, but it's only

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Speaker 1: slightly and so it sort of tends towards the middle

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Speaker 1: of the road, which may not be a good thing

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Speaker 1: in some ways, but in other ways it's a great thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people out there who

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Speaker 1: would never have had exposure to the world's great art

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Speaker 1: and literature who today can access it. It's just are

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Speaker 1: they going to take advantage of it? Should we necessarily

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Speaker 1: want them to? I don't really know why. Why wouldn't

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Speaker 1: we want them Because Western civilization is oppressive? Haven't you

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Speaker 1: heard that? Do you know about in your sectionality? Well,

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Speaker 1: there is that, But I was thinking more like mic

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Speaker 1: Roofen says, not everybody needs to go to college, not everybody,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not necessarily a bad thing that somebody

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Speaker 1: doesn't like to sit there and listen to Bach and handle.

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Speaker 1: I happen to, but a lot of people don't. And

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that those people are stupid, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that I am intellectually superior to them. Those

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Speaker 1: are criteria established at in previous age. Nowadays, we have

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Speaker 1: people who have intense knowledge of very tiny fractions of

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Speaker 1: the world. It's an era of specialization. That doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean that it's that's not necessarily a bad thing that

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Speaker 1: the age of the Renaissance man is over. The Age

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Speaker 1: of the renaissance man came about because the number of

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Speaker 1: people who are illiterate was tremendous back then, and so

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Speaker 1: if you could read, you necessarily became a specialist in everything.

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Speaker 1: But nowadays that's not the case. I like Barbara Back

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Speaker 1: and Bill Handel stop it. You know, I've been called

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Speaker 1: renaissance man, tim, But it does occur to me that, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're referred to as a renaissunts doctor, you'd be

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Speaker 1: run out of town, or a Renaissance astronomer, you'd probably

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Speaker 1: be pretty behind the curve. Um Well, that those people

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Speaker 1: are calling a renaissance man, they were, they're referring to

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Speaker 1: the Renaissance fair. But that that reminds me to walk

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Speaker 1: around with a big turkey leg. It's my thing. It

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Speaker 1: reminds me the idea that you know, we were always

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Speaker 1: against rocking the vote. We we don't want more people

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Speaker 1: to vote unless they take the time to like read

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Speaker 1: up on the issues, then then please do. But unless

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Speaker 1: you're going to no, don't vote. I like voter turnout

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Speaker 1: being relatively low since most people aren't paying attention, and

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Speaker 1: you know, it kind of gets to here. All this

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Speaker 1: information is out there, but are people going to take

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Speaker 1: advantage of it? And do we want them to? Yeah? No,

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Speaker 1: that's a good point. I mean we the vote can

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Speaker 1: be a dangerous weapon, and yeah, we handed out indiscriminately.

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Speaker 1: If everybody voted, I mean, if we had something like

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Speaker 1: turn out the vote politics, our our entire political system

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Speaker 1: could be turned upside down. Today, there's not an issue

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't stand on its head if everybody decided

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Speaker 1: to vote, and thank they don't. Yeah. Yeah, the qualifications,

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Speaker 1: the requirement that people know what they're talking about before

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Speaker 1: they go into the voting booth seems perfectly reasonable, and

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Speaker 1: yet it's regarded that is regarded, it's always been pest.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about a poll test? I know

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Speaker 1: it's it's history is not good. But what about if

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Speaker 1: you had a test and you have to be able

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Speaker 1: to name the president, vice president, and how many Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court justices there are? Something like that? I mean, pretty simple,

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Speaker 1: you'd wed out of think that's liable to It's liable

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Speaker 1: to so much abuse that I wouldn't favor that because

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Speaker 1: if you could wave your magic wand to wave away

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Speaker 1: the abuse, well, then it would be best just to

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Speaker 1: do that instead of imposing attack. In fact, the best

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Speaker 1: thing to do is to reduce the authority and white

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Speaker 1: males is that where you're going. I'm sorry interrupted you.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to landed white males. You know, if

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, you get the government so that it's not

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Speaker 1: doing anything. It doesn't matter who gets to vote. You know,

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Speaker 1: lots of feminists like to quote the line from Virginia

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Speaker 1: wolf Um where she referred to a room of my own.

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Speaker 1: I want a room of my own. The actual line

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Speaker 1: that she said was give me a room of my own,

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Speaker 1: and you can keep the vote. Because what matters is

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Speaker 1: let leave me alone, give me private property, and don't

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Speaker 1: bother me and take my stuff away to pay people

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Speaker 1: not to work. And it doesn't really matter who gets elected.

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Speaker 1: That's why you don't see all this this bruja, however,

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Speaker 1: gets who gets elected dog catcher or something. But there's

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Speaker 1: tons of money being poured into who gets elected president

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Speaker 1: and elected to Congress because there's so much redistribution of

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Speaker 1: wealth involved. That's the real problem. Interesting, which brings us

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Speaker 1: to really kind of the root of your career and

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Speaker 1: your books, um, which we mentioned and we'll get into

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Speaker 1: a little more specifically in a bit. But you know,

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Speaker 1: in this great age of resurgent populism, uh, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of populism that's really unhealthy. For instance, and the

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Speaker 1: Founding Fathers knew that most people want a king, don't

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Speaker 1: they in a royal family, in a wise and benevolent

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Speaker 1: pop out of rule from on high. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: there is a something to be said for that. I

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Speaker 1: think most people don't think long enough to to say

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Speaker 1: where does the money come from that the government is

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Speaker 1: going to give to me. They think that many people

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Speaker 1: think of the government as their parent, when the reality

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Speaker 1: is that government is your child. It's the people who

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Speaker 1: support the government. So as a matter of common sense,

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Speaker 1: the government can support the people. And I don't want

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Speaker 1: to come off as contemptuous of the average human being, um,

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Speaker 1: but but there's danger there, and the Founding Fathers understood

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Speaker 1: that because it's really seductive idea that the government will

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Speaker 1: take care of me. In fact, it's not only is

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Speaker 1: it not, it's not a condescending thing to say. Most

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Speaker 1: people don't understand or think about politics. It's not a

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Speaker 1: condescend anything. It's that it's the focus of a lot

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Speaker 1: of scholarship. It's called rational ignorance. And my my friend

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Speaker 1: Ilias Souman, who's a law professor at George Mason University,

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Speaker 1: he focuses a lot of his scholarship on rational ignorance.

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Speaker 1: It is not rational for a lot of people to

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Speaker 1: spend their time studying politics because they have other things

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Speaker 1: to do. They they spend their time studying, you know,

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Speaker 1: how to make how to do gardening, or how to

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Speaker 1: build buildings, or how how to put up a bridge

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Speaker 1: or something. That's what their time is spent on. And

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Speaker 1: it's we would not be rational for me to spend

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Speaker 1: my time studying engineering, because I'm not an engineer. For

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Speaker 1: the same reason, the it's not rational for most people

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Speaker 1: to spend their time on politics. It's not necessarily a

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Speaker 1: bad thing, but it does mean that we need to

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Speaker 1: be very wary when they express political opinions or demand

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Speaker 1: a say in what the government does. You're a an

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Speaker 1: expert on the founding, what do you think we we

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Speaker 1: we regularly asked this, as you know, it's a common

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Speaker 1: question if the Founding fathers were alive today, what would

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Speaker 1: they think of their experiment? Do you think shocked that

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Speaker 1: it lasted so long? Or horrified to where it's end

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Speaker 1: hut up? There would be a lot of the ladder No,

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Speaker 1: I I think I think Jefferson would be horrified that

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Speaker 1: we hadn't torn up the Constitution long ago and rewritten

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Speaker 1: it several times. Jefferson had this idea that we should

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Speaker 1: rewrite the Constitution every generation or so, and he would

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Speaker 1: be horrified also, by the way, at the size of

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Speaker 1: the states. He thought the states should be much smaller

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Speaker 1: than they currently are and should be subdivided down into

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Speaker 1: the two hundreds hundred citizens per town unit or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Came up with these really great ideas to

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Speaker 1: try and limit government power and keep power in hands

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Speaker 1: of local decision makers as much as possible. So he

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Speaker 1: would have been horrified, and he would have said that

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Speaker 1: we had sold out the American dream to the Hamiltonian

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Speaker 1: notion of get rich quick. And by the way, that

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Speaker 1: is really true. There really is. There's two American dreams.

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Speaker 1: There's the American dream of patient, careful hard work that

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Speaker 1: provides a modest living for yourself and your family, and

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Speaker 1: then there's the American dream of get rich quick, and

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Speaker 1: those two have always been intention and it's when the

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Speaker 1: latter starts to rise in society that you really need

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Speaker 1: to be careful and worried about the government. I think

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Speaker 1: James Madison would have been more pleased than Jefferson. Madison

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Speaker 1: had this idea, had a more conservative view about what

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Speaker 1: government could accomplish and and how reasonable it was to

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Speaker 1: expect people to be responsible citizens, and his answer was

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Speaker 1: not very so I think he would have been a

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Speaker 1: little bit more pleased, but he still would have been

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Speaker 1: pretty shocked by the scope and size and power of

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Speaker 1: government today. No, none of them, none of them, not

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Speaker 1: even not even people like Hamilton's or John Adams, who

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Speaker 1: were more of your big government guys. Not even they

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Speaker 1: would have had they all would have been horrifying. That's

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Speaker 1: what I was gonna say. You could find things that

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Speaker 1: they would disagree on, I'm sure, but I would think

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Speaker 1: they would all be shocked at the royal government place

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Speaker 1: in everybody's life in the modern world, which brings us

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Speaker 1: back to the rational ignorance you're talking about. As I've

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Speaker 1: said many times, it is an impossibility for a voter

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Speaker 1: or hell, even a legislator to have anything near a

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Speaker 1: thorough enough knowledge of what the government is doing to

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Speaker 1: be a responsible voter or responsible representative, which which is

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Speaker 1: just that's a deal breaker. If you have a government

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Speaker 1: too large and complex to comprehend much less control, then

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Speaker 1: you've done something terribly wrong. Yeah. I think The Atlantic

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Speaker 1: ran an article some months ago about talking about how

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Speaker 1: the presidency was just too big a job for for

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Speaker 1: people across the board, And that's absolutely true, and it's

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Speaker 1: not true just in the era of Trump. It was

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Speaker 1: true of Obama, I was true of Clinton, industry, of Bush.

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Speaker 1: No no individual could possibly understand even a fraction of

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Speaker 1: what the president is required to do, so of course

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Speaker 1: the president can't possibly get it right. No nobody could

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Speaker 1: possibly handle that kind of information. Is just too much

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Speaker 1: work for any one person to do, or or a

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Speaker 1: group of people like you said, Congress doesn't read a

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Speaker 1: lot of the bills because nobody could read all those bills.

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Speaker 1: So what happens is that the intellectual leadership kind of

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Speaker 1: devolves into the hands of think tank people like me,

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Speaker 1: or into the hands of staff members, especially in a

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Speaker 1: state like California with the with term limits and things.

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Speaker 1: You often find that the staffers stay around, they become

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Speaker 1: the permanent political class. And then it's a matter of

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Speaker 1: of this, you know, these ideas that float around the

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Speaker 1: capital for a decade or two, until all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden there comes a need. Oh, hey, let's we need

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Speaker 1: to do a bill on such and such. What what

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Speaker 1: have we gotten a drawer? You know, Well, they've gotten

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Speaker 1: a drawer what's been floating around for ten years? And

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Speaker 1: that's what it gets past. That's exactly what happened with Obamacare,

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Speaker 1: when when a ballcare came about. All these notions have

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Speaker 1: been floating around Washington, d c. For decades or so,

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Speaker 1: and they all just stuffed it into a bill and

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Speaker 1: there you go. And so you get this horrible, crazy

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Speaker 1: quilt of a bill that nobody still understands what it does.

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Speaker 1: You know. So let's circle back to something you said

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about Hamilton's earlier and they get rich

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Speaker 1: quick view of America, the American dream. How does that

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Speaker 1: intersect with the desire for big government. I don't get it,

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Speaker 1: he says, feigning ignorance. Yeah, well, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: expect to get rich quick off of the government um

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Speaker 1: or at a minimum that they can use the government

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Speaker 1: to keep other from other people from getting rich quick.

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Speaker 1: And it's the government is a great tool for for

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Speaker 1: ruining your competition and getting what you want right, stifling

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Speaker 1: competition by both through licensing laws or other kinds of restrictions.

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Speaker 1: And you know we by the way, we often talk

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Speaker 1: about this in economic terms, but it's also true in

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Speaker 1: social terms. The government doesn't just prevent competition in economics,

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Speaker 1: it also events competition in ideas. So religious groups will

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Speaker 1: often try and use the government to restrict their opponents

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Speaker 1: in exactly the same way that businesses try to use

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Speaker 1: the government to restrict their their competitors. Licensing laws, for

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Speaker 1: for for starting a moving company, are a good example

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Speaker 1: of how existing moving companies use the licensing requirements to

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Speaker 1: prevent economic competition. A lot of the time, you see

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Speaker 1: the same kind of competition between religious groups as as

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Speaker 1: opposed to economic groups. So, for instance, every few years,

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Speaker 1: Texas goes through a meeting where they adopt textbooks, and

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Speaker 1: because they're the single largest market for textbooks, that matters

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Speaker 1: a lot, so a lot of religious groups will rally

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Speaker 1: around that meeting to try and get the textbooks they

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Speaker 1: like adopted because they know that that will set the

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Speaker 1: trend nationwide. And it's exactly the same phenomenon. And James

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Speaker 1: Madison understood this when he wrote the Constitution. He used

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Speaker 1: that example, used the competition among religious groups as his

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Speaker 1: explanation for why you need limited government, because that kind

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Speaker 1: of competition will cancel itself out if you have the

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Speaker 1: right checks and balances in place so that no one

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Speaker 1: church can take over the power of government and stifle

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Speaker 1: religious freedom of religion and so forth. And the seam

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Speaker 1: is true of government, I mean of economics. If if

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Speaker 1: you have these competing interest groups, as long as the

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Speaker 1: government's power is limited, it doesn't really matter whether they

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Speaker 1: hate each other or whatever, because they're not going to

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Speaker 1: harm the rest of us by creating a monopoly. And

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Speaker 1: so that's why I often say that my goal is

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Speaker 1: the separation of economics and politics in exactly the same

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Speaker 1: way as the separation of church and state. How far

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Speaker 1: away are we from that goal? About a billion light years,

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Speaker 1: you know, probably worth mentioning. It's specifically one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite books of yours, The Right to Earn a Living,

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Speaker 1: which is just it's such an eye opener about how

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Speaker 1: government is used in regulation is used not to keep

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Speaker 1: us all safe and make things fair, but precisely the opposite. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The founding father is called the problem of faction. A

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Speaker 1: faction is a group within society, which can even include

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Speaker 1: an entire majority of the society, that wants to use

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Speaker 1: the government for its own private purposes instead of for

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Speaker 1: the public welfare. And the fact is that there really

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Speaker 1: is only one thing in the world that is genuinely

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Speaker 1: in the public welfare, and that is the protection of

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Speaker 1: individual rights. Everything else you can think of favors one

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Speaker 1: group at the expense of another, whether it be public schools.

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Speaker 1: Public schools favor those who have children against those who

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Speaker 1: don't have children. I don't have kids, but I have

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Speaker 1: to pay to support the public schools, And there's always

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Speaker 1: some excuse given, Oh, well, you benefit from the fact

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Speaker 1: that there's an educated populace. Ha ha ha. Yeah right.

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Speaker 1: It's the parents who benefit from the public schools because

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Speaker 1: they don't have to provide for the education entirely by themselves,

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Speaker 1: because they're subsidized out of my tax at my tax dollars.

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Speaker 1: So everything else that you can think of is like that.

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Speaker 1: It benefits some people at the expensive others except for

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Speaker 1: the protection of individual rights. And so the more you

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Speaker 1: get to a government that does nothing more than protect

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Speaker 1: individual rights, the better off. Society in general is as

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Speaker 1: opposed to one faction over another using political power for

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Speaker 1: their own best interests. A tangent since you brought up

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Speaker 1: the idea of getting rich quick the recent Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: ruling on gambling, so there are a lot of states

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Speaker 1: that are either going to get into the lottery thing

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Speaker 1: now or increase it or opening up more um gambling,

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Speaker 1: to sports betting, to to to make money off of it,

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Speaker 1: and only the governments will really be allowed to do

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Speaker 1: it large scale. So so you've got taxpayer money being

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Speaker 1: spent to advertise to people to that they're gonna get

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Speaker 1: rich quick, I guess, so that they can bring in

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Speaker 1: more money to the state government and then wasted. How

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Speaker 1: do you feel about that? Yeah, you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: funny because of course, as a libertarian, I believe that

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Speaker 1: if you want to gamble, it's every bit, it's your right.

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Speaker 1: The government has no business getting involved. But you know,

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Speaker 1: gambling is a is not exactly a healthy occupation, and

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Speaker 1: it does encourage social morais and habits that are inimical

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Speaker 1: to a good society, and it should be. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it is worrisome that the government is in the business

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Speaker 1: of fostering these kinds of activities. If you think about it, though,

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Speaker 1: it's funny because government has always been doing that. Government

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Speaker 1: has been subsidized by um taxes on liquor forever, and

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Speaker 1: there are states where the government owns all of the

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Speaker 1: liquor stores. Liquors is a monopoly run by the government,

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Speaker 1: and government taxes on cigarettes and things. You know, these

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Speaker 1: syntaxes have always been a very important part of government's income,

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Speaker 1: precisely because it knows that. You know, they're kind of

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Speaker 1: addictive and it's hard not to do them, so they're

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Speaker 1: a healthy stream. When prohibition went into place, prohibition was

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Speaker 1: only made possible by the passage of the Income Tax Amendment,

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Speaker 1: because the federal government was supported so much by alcohol

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Speaker 1: taxes that the only way that you could prohibit alcohol

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Speaker 1: was to come up with an alternative income stream for

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Speaker 1: the government. And that was why the income tax was

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Speaker 1: such a an important part of the progressive platform. I

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Speaker 1: was happy to hear you say that that you're troubled

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Speaker 1: as a libertarian, you know, because I'm the same way.

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Speaker 1: I'm libertarian most things, but on this one. The idea

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Speaker 1: of the government with the billboards of happy, smiling people

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Speaker 1: winning money, which is a lie. Almost nobody, nobody, You're

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Speaker 1: not gonna win, you know, long term, your math, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna lose. But they're so they're lying to people to

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Speaker 1: try to get them to spend money on something that's

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Speaker 1: a bad habit, to try to fill state coffers, which

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Speaker 1: then they will waste the money. Wow. I was gonna

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Speaker 1: accuse you too, of of dabbling in paternalism. I was

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Speaker 1: really looking forward to that. But now I get it.

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Speaker 1: So would you, either one of you have a problem

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Speaker 1: with just, you know, me running a sports book on

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Speaker 1: the up and up. I'm not stealing from anybody, as

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Speaker 1: long as it's not like a state encouraging it and

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Speaker 1: in misleading people as to how likely they are to win.

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Speaker 1: That's that's a very libertarian point of view. I think, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, government itself is a sin in some way,

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Speaker 1: so it kind of makes sense. But it's also a

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Speaker 1: very read of tax All of these taxes, cigarette taxes,

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Speaker 1: alcohol taxes, and sports am betting taxes in the form

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Speaker 1: of gambling harm the poor more than the rich. That

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Speaker 1: because the richer we are educated enough to know what

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Speaker 1: a bad bet buying a lottery ticket is or and

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Speaker 1: and they tend not to smoke or drink as much. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'd be I'd be more okay with it if I

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Speaker 1: could count on the fact that if somebody gambles their

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Speaker 1: whole life and ends up with no money when they're

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Speaker 1: sixty five, sorry, you're just out of luck. But that's

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Speaker 1: not the way it works. They're gonna get some of

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Speaker 1: my money to be able to live, you know, a

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Speaker 1: dignity in their old age, as Barack Obama wants put

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Speaker 1: it um. If that's the case, then I do have

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Speaker 1: a stake in whether or not they gamble away their money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is where that's why socialism so complicated. Daniel Alker,

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Speaker 1: in his book on Prohibition, points out that one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why the DuPont family worked so hard to

430
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: get the Prohibition Amendment repealed was because they thought that

431
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: that was the first step in getting rid of the

432
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: income tax. Well, instead, what you ended up with was

433
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: both You've got government taxes on alcohol and income taxes.

434
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: Is there any he's setting this trend towards gigantic government

435
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: high taxes, many many regulations, and and look, I realize

436
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: you occasionally you get a Reagan or a Trump roll

437
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: and back some regulations here and there. But you know,

438
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: that's just nipping around the edges. That's just tiny little

439
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: bobbles downward in a trend upward. What will it take

440
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 1: the reset giant war, cataclysm flu that kills two seventy million.

441
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: You know somebody I was it, George Will, It was

442
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: some prominent commentator just recently said that he thought that

443
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: nothing short of a catastrophic war. Now maybe it was

444
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: Charles Murray, nothing short of account I've been saying that

445
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: for a decade. Yeah, that's gonna pay attention to one

446
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: of those bastards. Spend one of the armstrong and getting

447
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: principles forever. We need a war or fatal disease to

448
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: come along. Damn, I can't anything. I'm reminded of that

449
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: at the Simpsons episode when Bart looks at the at

450
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: the Generation X or millennial or whoever was and and

451
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: he says, we need another Vietnam's been out their ranks

452
00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: a little wow wow. But Bart, no, I mean it's

453
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: true that crises tend to motivate people, and there will

454
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: inevitably be a crisis if we continue down the road

455
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: of ever expanding government and irresponsibility. But uh, nothing, there's

456
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 1: absolutely none of this is written in the Book of Faith.

457
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: There's no reason in the world why we couldn't give

458
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 1: me an example. And I asked people all the time

459
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: giving an example of a society that went back from this,

460
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: that went backwards to two more, you know, lean responsible.

461
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: I don't know of one. I mean, without without a cataclysm,

462
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: you mean, or just disappearing. Yeah, well, I just don't

463
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: think it happens. Yeah, exactly, That's what I've asked historians.

464
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: It just doesn't happen. I wish it would, but I

465
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 1: don't think it's gonna happen. Well, I've got an example.

466
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 1: Hong Kong when when the British um you know, they

467
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: they had Hong Kong for quite a long time, and

468
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 1: it was not the economic powerhouse that it became until

469
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: sometime in the mid twentieth century when they decided to

470
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: do it as an experiment and create as close to

471
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: a lazy affair society as they could. And between the

472
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: two thousand, you know, Hong Kong became this incredible economic

473
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: powerhouse because of sharply limited government. Now the price for that,

474
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: The downside to that was a good degree of authoritarianism

475
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: because it was imposed and the people there really didn't

476
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: have a lot of democratic control over how that worked.

477
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: But it was it was done, and it was done

478
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: from the top down. As an ideological thing. We are

479
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: going to create a free market society, and that you

480
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: need a wise and benevolent king then, because the people

481
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: are never going to vote for that, you know, which

482
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: which could bring us to uh. You know, when democracy

483
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: comes to the Middle East, they vote for a theocracy. Um.

484
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: But I was going to say for Japan, that's another

485
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: You know that your Middle East example gives me a

486
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: good example, and that is McArthur occupying Japan. Japan in

487
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties and forties was every bit the terrorist

488
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: theocratic society that the Middle East is today. And after

489
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: the Caphy, the catastrophe of the war, MacArthur takes over

490
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: and he says, we're going to write you a constitution

491
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: and it's going to have things like freedom of speech

492
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: and so forth in there. And look at what has resulted.

493
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: What has resulted, It has been prosperity and modernization of Japan.

494
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: We point it could have been a weird, weird porn

495
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: good point. It takes a catastrophe as your it takes

496
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: a village, I guess, but I agree, and it is

497
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: absolutely necessary to point out we are writing our own catastrophe.

498
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: It stands at twenty two trillion dollars of debt and

499
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: and growing every day. What's it saying that the hard

500
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: times that you've been repeating, Gosh, hard times make for

501
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: strong people. Strong people make for good times. Good times

502
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: make for soft people. Soft people make for bad times,

503
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: make bad times. And that's what we're going through. Yeah. Probably.

504
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: And it's hard because the generation that went through World

505
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: War Two and experienced not just World War Two, but

506
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: the but the prosperity of the fifties that came when

507
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: Truman and Eisenhower eliminated the government controls that had been

508
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: imposed during World War Two. That generation is disappearing. And

509
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: the what we're seeing is the rise of Heck, we're

510
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: right seeing the rise of a generation that doesn't doesn't

511
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: remember the Cold War at all. And that's a scary thing.

512
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: And what's interesting. Lincoln actually gave a speech on this topic,

513
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: his first prominent address in the l where he said,

514
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: you know, all of the revolutionary leaders, they're dying off

515
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: and and they are no longer around to remind us

516
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: of the tyranny that they experienced and of the importance

517
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: of freedom. And if we don't remember those lessons were

518
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: destined for a real disaster. And obviously he was right

519
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: about that. Does I think we're seeing the same thing.

520
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: There's been a number of poles lately, uh, articles and

521
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: all kinds of different things showing a a much brighter

522
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: view of socialism by young people. Hillary Clinton said not

523
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: long ago, she said coming out as a capitalist really

524
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: hurt her in Iowa. I mean, that's that that would

525
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: have been crazy a couple of decades ago. Yeah, No,

526
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: it's a that's a very frightening thing. I mean, I yeah,

527
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: nothing shows me more than seeing these things about the

528
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: positive view that young people have of socialism, the the

529
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: deadliest and cruelest of all human ideologies. Yeah. You get

530
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: stuff for free, you see. Yeah, everybody gets a free

531
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: education and they don't have to worry about working, and

532
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: they can be a put if they want. Um. Yeah,

533
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: it's it is scary, tim Although the one and it's

534
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: an odd reassurance to find, but the one reassuring thing

535
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: I've found is that those same polls, when they ask him, right,

536
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: what is socialism? The kids don't have a clue what

537
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: it is. It just sounds vaguely pleasant to them that

538
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: they will get a free college education. And you know, honestly,

539
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: as you said at the very beginning, these are the

540
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: people who are going to be voting so god so

541
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: many things we could talk about. We could talk about

542
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: the unholy state of higher education right now, the idea

543
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: of coming out of school with you knows worth of

544
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: debt for your undergrad degree, and and you know how

545
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: that's changed so much in a few, uh, you know,

546
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: a few generations. I kind of sympathize with the kids,

547
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: thinking there's got to be a better alternative than this. Yeah,

548
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: what happened is the biggest thing I think is the conservatives. Really,

549
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: the blame I think belongs primarily with the conservatives. The

550
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: Conservatives claimed to be the voice of freedom, of the constitution,

551
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: of limited government and free markets, and the Conservatives have

552
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: never really understood free markets and never actually supported free markets.

553
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: And they then tied themselves to social conservative attitudes such

554
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: as hostility to same sex marriage that made them uh no,

555
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,239
Speaker 1: longer a tendable position for the younger generation. And so

556
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: the younger generation has thrown out the conservative his and that,

557
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: and by doing that, they've also thrown out the good

558
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: sides of conservatism, which were the few aspects of limited

559
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: government and free markets that some conservatives sometimes understood. But

560
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: that's some good stuff. That's that's that's really good right there,

561
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: because we we've been on stages before, and you know,

562
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: you can talk about small government and all that sort

563
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: of stuff and fiscal responsibility, and but if people think

564
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: you're most of this has changed now. But if people

565
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: thought you were anti gay marriage or you know, anti

566
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: legalizing marijuana or whatever, that the conversation stopped there. You

567
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: weren't gonna get anywhere with your small government clapp track.

568
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: To some degree, that's a good thing from a libertarian

569
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: point of view. That's because that shows that the audience

570
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: was attuned to the hypocrisy of those who claims to

571
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: be in favor of private property rights and free markets,

572
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: but at the same time thought that the stage should

573
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: tell people whom they could marry. And that's a positive development.

574
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: The downside is that the left is going to take

575
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: advantage of that and they're going to wed socialism to

576
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: their own views, and I one hopes that the younger

577
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: generation will also see the hypocrisy of that, to see

578
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: that the left is wrong when it says, yes, you

579
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: can choose whom to go to bed with, but we're

580
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: going to tell you what property you can own and

581
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: what businesses you can run. If if we can maintain

582
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: the skepticism against both sides, then there's a hope for

583
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: a future. Where are politics believe in freedom across the board? Well,

584
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: let's not gloss it over the downside of socialism and

585
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: central planning. For you know, for those who haven't been

586
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: obsessed with it for most of their adult lives, why

587
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: not socialism? Tim It sounds great, equal fair, etcetera. I

588
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: you really do want a long form podcast, don't you.

589
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: The central evil of socialism is in the idea that

590
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: you exist to serve others, that moral good consists of

591
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: you working to support other people and other people working

592
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: to support you, when the reality is that I do

593
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 1: not exist to make other people happy. I exist for

594
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: my own sake, and I have a right to pursue

595
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: my own happiness not having to to curtail my behavior

596
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: to satisfy the desires of other people. Every other evil

597
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: that arises from socialism, from the shortages that are inevitable

598
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: in it, to the political and social oppression that results

599
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: from it, flow from that central evil premise. I'm not

600
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: nearly as good at quoting folks as you are. It's

601
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: it's a gift. It's it always amazed me, but us,

602
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: And who's going to challenge it? Perfect? Yeah, But I

603
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: absolutely love what I've heard expressed in a couple of

604
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: places lately that the amount of control or oppression it

605
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: takes to make socialism work, it would be repugnant to

606
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: any human being who who either remembers what it looks

607
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: like or can imagine it. You either. I mean, the

608
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: only two reason people reasons people work are for reward

609
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: or to avoid punishment. And there must be so much

610
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: punishment to make socialism work. It ends the way it

611
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: always ends, That's right, And the reason why is because

612
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: a thriving economy is a living thing. A thriving economy

613
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: is kind of like um, it's kind of like the environment.

614
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: It's like an ecosystem, which means it's constantly in a

615
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: process of change. It's not a static, fixed state and

616
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: socialism views it as a static fixed state or or

617
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: or like some sort of a machine instead of a

618
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: living organism, and so it tries to prescribe rules that

619
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: will be enforced by the government, to say what you

620
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: shall charge or how much you will produce and so forth.

621
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: And because that can't work, what you really do is

622
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: you end up you get end up moving the competition

623
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: to some other aspect of the economy, and then that

624
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: has to be clamped down, and then it moves it

625
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: to elsewhere, and then that has to be clamped down

626
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: until the entire society has clamped down. So, for example,

627
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: if you impose a price restriction on milk, and you say, no, no,

628
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: we're all the only commodity that we're going to impose

629
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: a price restriction is on milk. Nothing else. You can

630
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: charge whatever you want for everything else, just not milk.

631
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: Milk has to be what cents a gallon. Well, if that,

632
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: if you do that, the dairies aren't going to produce milk.

633
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: They're gonna put that They're gonna put their products into

634
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: making cheese or butter instead because they can make more money.

635
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: So if you're gonna enforce your milk restriction, now you

636
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: have to restrict the production of cheese and butter also,

637
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: and now the dairies are going to start making ice

638
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: cream instead, So now you've got to restrict the production

639
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: of ice cream. And then you're gonna have to restrict

640
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: the cows, and you're gonna have to restrict the farmers.

641
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: They're gonna have to restrict the feed that goes to

642
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: feed the cows, and then you're gonna have to restrict

643
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: the transportation the trucks that carry the cows from one

644
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: place to another, and then you have to restrict the

645
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: fuel that the trucks use, and pretty soon you have

646
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: to restrict the entire economy just in order to maintain

647
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: your price restriction on milk. It limitably works that way.

648
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: Can't we just put the dairy farmers in a re

649
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: education camp and beat them until they comply. That's that's

650
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: what ends up happening, exactly, because they don't work for profits,

651
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: so the so the only thing they can do is

652
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: to work out of fear, and so you have to

653
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: impose more and more fear in order to get people

654
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: to work. Now, the answer that socialists always give is, oh, no,

655
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: new socialist man won't be selfish and greedy. He's going

656
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: to care for his fellowman the way he cares for himself.

657
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: Now we know that that's nonsense, that that is has

658
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: never been the case and will never be the case.

659
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: But and the only way to accomplish that is through

660
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: forcible re education. And so you create these labor camps

661
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: in order to teach them to sacrifice themselves for the

662
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: benefit of the hive, because we're running people as if

663
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: they were ants and so, and of course who's going

664
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: to do that. There has to be somebody who's in

665
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: charge of the hive, and so inevitably you have a

666
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: dictator class that gets fat and and the and while

667
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: the people are starving. Yeah, it's like, remind me of

668
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: that the Lenin letter that came to light a couple

669
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: of years back. Uh, the letter actually exists, um where

670
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: he says, better to hang a thousand farmers than to have,

671
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: you know, the overall good not succeed or something. Just

672
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: I mean, just amazing that anybody could actually think that way.

673
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: They were going to village the village hanging farmers to

674
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: show you this is why you need to comply, and

675
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: he thought, well, you know, you hang a thousand farmers

676
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: but overall people are gonna be happier. And that's a

677
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: hell of a mindset. It's like the old like the

678
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: old trick of getting the donkey to move forward by

679
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: holding the carrot in front of him, or you can

680
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: whip him with a stick from behind, and so there

681
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: you have the old carrot or the strict stick approach.

682
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: The socialists say that the carrot is oppressive, so they

683
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: eliminate it. So then they're left with making bigger and

684
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger sticks. Wow. Wow, that is well said.

685
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: So uh, having solved socialism for the next few generations.

686
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about your book,

687
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: The Permission Society, which is terrific and and we is

688
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: that the one we partially inspired? Yes, that was because

689
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: you You are very fond of saying that whenever the

690
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: government talks about permits, you need to remember that the

691
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: root word of permit is permission. And I haven't and

692
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: never use it as a noun without using it as

693
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: a verb. The government is going to permit me to

694
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: reap my patio. How kind of them? That's right? And

695
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: I was having I was thinking of that when I

696
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: was having a conversation with a friend of mine who

697
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: does Second Amendment law. And he was trying to argue

698
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: in some cases that the same rules that apply when

699
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: the government requires you to get a permit for a

700
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: parade or a protest ought to also apply when the

701
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: government requires you to get a permit for a gun,

702
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: and that is that they're they're prison. It's very rare

703
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: that the government is allowed to impose restrictions on you

704
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: for free speech, and so it should be the same

705
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: thing for gun permits. And I thought you could apply

706
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: that logic across the board to all the different things

707
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: government requires us to get permission to do. And you

708
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: start to think about all the things government requires you

709
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: to get permission for, it's amazing. I mean everything from

710
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: from the permit to build a house or run a

711
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: business to a prescription to to have a medicine. A

712
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: prescription is just a government permission slip allowing you to

713
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: own a medicine, right right. And And I actually just

714
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: watched a speech you did at the Cato Institute about

715
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: your book a few years ago, and you let off

716
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: with a great quote, was it from Madison about how

717
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: the the American the Constitution and the Revolution flopped the

718
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: idea of um of rights and permission on its head. Yeah.

719
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: So Madison wrote this in two. It's an essay called Charters,

720
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: and he says that in in Europe, charters of liberty

721
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: were granted by power, but America has set the example

722
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: of charters of power granted by liberty. And what he

723
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: meant was that in Europe you had things like the

724
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: Magna Carta. And if you actually read the Magna Carta,

725
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: what it says is I the keing in giving the

726
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: following freedoms to the people. Well, where did he get

727
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: those freedoms to begin with? Right? Did he just invent them?

728
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: Did he just grow them in his backyard? What the

729
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: American Constitution says is no, No, the people are free

730
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: to begin with, and they give the government power. And

731
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: Madison says in that essay that that change from the

732
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: idea that government gives us freedom to the idea that

733
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: we give the government power because we are already free.

734
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: That change is the most important change that the American

735
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: Revolution accomplished. You know, if we could go crisper, you know,

736
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: gene gene stitching whatever they call it, gene editing, gene editing. Yeah,

737
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: with one briefly stated idea and in fact, like the

738
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: next four generations With that, I think it would be

739
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: what you just said, when what Madison just said, the

740
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: idea that alright, alright, okay, I guess we need a government,

741
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: but we're going to tell you what you can do,

742
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: and you're gonna do no more than that. Yep, that's right.

743
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: And actually I there's a book that I really recommend

744
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: called The Discovery of Freedom by Rose Wilder Lane, where

745
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: this is the basic thesis. Now, the book's got some

746
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: some problems, some of its historical claims aren't accurate, but

747
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: the essence of it is exactly right. You're right. That

748
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: is the key, that the idea that human beings are

749
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: fundamentally free, that freedom isn't given to us by anything.

750
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: Once you have that idea in your mind, and if

751
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: you apply it consistently across the board, it's really amazing.

752
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: What a different world you would have, a world where

753
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: where you can accomplish, you can pursue your own happiness

754
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 1: without having to ask the government. Mother, May I first

755
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: go ahead? I was gonna say, you know, I was

756
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: thinking we ought to ask before before we wrap this up,

757
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: what does it even mean to say you're a libertarian

758
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: at this point in our nation's history, because there's so

759
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 1: many different definitions. Is it just escaped mental patient Gary Johnson,

760
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: as we often call him on the radio show. Does

761
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: it just mean that you embrace the idea that that

762
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: the people should establish a limited government and keep it limited.

763
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: The the simple answer to what a libertarian is as

764
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: a person who believes the government has no right to

765
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: dictate my economic choices, just like it has no right

766
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: to dictate my personal choices about who my date, or

767
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: who my UH read, or whom I speak to. It

768
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: also should have no authority to tell me what I

769
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: do with my property, or whether I run a business,

770
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: or or any of those sorts of things. Government is

771
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: strictly limited to defending individual rights and nothing more. That's

772
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 1: the simple answer. The more complicated answer is that libertarianism

773
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: is a species of liberalism. It's and a lot of

774
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: people get this confused because they think that libertarians are

775
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: kind of conservative, and actually where the opposite of that. Conservatives.

776
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: The primary concern for a conservative is creating and maintaining

777
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: a society. Libertarians aren't concerned with creating and maintaining a society.

778
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: They're concerned with individual flourishing. They want the individual to

779
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 1: be free to pursue happiness. I'm ever flourished in my life.

780
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: That's a good goal. Well, then you need to get

781
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: out mortal friends, um and and liberals, today's modern liberals,

782
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: they also want the individual to to flourish, but they

783
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: think the way to a published that is for government

784
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: to take money from people who earn it and give

785
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: it to them, or to give them an education, or

786
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: give them housing and everything that flourishing is assured to

787
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: protect them and stuff. Yeah, exactly, Whereas the libertarian says, no, no,

788
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: you have the right to God to lead your own life,

789
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: but don't expect me to come pay in your bills

790
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: for you where and so those are two branches of

791
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: the same treat Conservatism is the idea that our primary

792
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: concern is creating and maintaining society, and that means curtailing

793
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: individual rights sometimes in order to maintain healthy society. It's

794
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: just by historical accident that libertarians and conservatives joined forces

795
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: during the Cold War because they're both anti communist. And

796
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: what we're seeing in today's world is the breakup of

797
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: that of that connection. We're seeing libertarians no longer joining

798
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 1: forces with conservatives, which incidentally, is why you see the

799
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: Trump phenomenon because the libertarian wing of the of the

800
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: Republican Party, they weren't interested in participating in that kind

801
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: of of a choice, and some of them voted for Hillary.

802
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: Even some of them may even voted for Gary Johnson,

803
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: some of them voted for Trump's and so it fractured

804
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: the Republican vote, which is why you saw that phenomenon occur.

805
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: What do you do about people that make bad decisions

806
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: in life? If you're going to look at it from

807
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: a libertarian standpoint and you believe in free markets and

808
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: try to stay away from socialism, because we talk about

809
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: this a lot um. The person that's made bad choices

810
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:26,959
Speaker 1: throughout their life and they end up with no money.

811
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: The person that does the dumb things and ends up

812
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: in the hospital but doesn't have insurance when they could

813
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: have had it. How do you handle that? Well, I

814
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: have a couple of friends who often say stupid should hurt, right, Yeah,

815
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: And and there's a and the good thing about that,

816
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: of course, is if you if you witness in your

817
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: life as you're growing up, people who have had some

818
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: really bad results from their actions, you might be careful,

819
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: more careful with your own actions. Yeah, that's not theoretical.

820
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: I saw things. But so are you gonna end up

821
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: in your in your cold hearted libertarian were old tim sender?

822
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: Are you gonna have a homeless people starving, or people

823
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: going to the hospital and they can't get their broken

824
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: ankle fixed, or what I suppose that might happen. I

825
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: don't think that it's going to be nearly as common

826
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: as the nightmares that the left likes to throw out

827
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,959
Speaker 1: and say everybody's gonna be starving the streets. I always

828
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: thought it was funny when people say, uh, oh yeah,

829
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: what it free to do? What free to starve? As

830
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 1: if you won't starve if your hands are tied rights,

831
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: has less chance starved to death than the person who's

832
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: who's who's being dictated to by the state. Um no,

833
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: a free society, if you want to help people who

834
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: are unfortunate, you will not be stopped. Well, yeah, exactly right.

835
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: And I think you know, private charity will become a

836
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: much more significant part of every community. Um, you know

837
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: when government charity. But Joe, the thing is, it's not

838
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: it's not about that to me. The thing about private charity,

839
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: it's you're absolutely right a private charity. Not only as

840
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: a theoretical matter would it occurred, but historically we know

841
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: that's the case because the most charitable time in American

842
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: history was the late nineteenth cent three, which was also

843
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: the freest economically speaking, as everything from the Red Cross

844
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: to the A s p c. A dates from the

845
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: time where we got closest to Las Affair. So absolutely

846
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: that will happen. But the most important point here is

847
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: that the what about the poor argument he's always whipped

848
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 1: out in an effort to get you to say that

849
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: you exist to make other people happy, that your life

850
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: is deter the goodness of you as a person is

851
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: dependent upon the degree to which you serve poor and

852
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: unfortunate people, and that is something I absolutely refused to accept.

853
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: I exist to provide for myself, to pursue my own happiness,

854
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: and to accomplish my own goals. If I happen to

855
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: be charitable to other people, which I do, then that

856
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: is because I derive personal benefit from that, because I

857
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: think that person deserves some help, because it makes me

858
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: feel better as a person to help that person, or

859
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: or because I just am not willing to live with

860
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: myself while watching this p and suffered well, and your

861
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: your motivation doesn't really matter to me. If you're free

862
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: to do whatever the hell you want, including given all

863
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: your money to the poor, it's your business, right. Uh.

864
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: I had one more topic I wanted to get onto.

865
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: I've got a big one, but I'm saving it for

866
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: the end unless we come up with more topics to

867
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: get onto. Oh god, it flitted right out of my mind.

868
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: A capable of talking in our right. Yeah, God, bless you.

869
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: And it finally it popped back into my mind. Um,

870
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: what do you make of the culture of ready offense,

871
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: the culture of the microaggression, the culture of um celebrating victimhood.

872
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a horrifying development and it has to

873
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: be ended now. It should have been ended yesterday. It's

874
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: a terrible thing to see, and I think we see

875
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: it particularly in There's three aspects to it. There's the

876
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: ideas of approp creation, the idea of social constructivism, which

877
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: is the idea that everything, all the differences between people

878
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: are really just the result of social construction, that that

879
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: society can change. And there's the idea that of racial identity,

880
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: constituting your your mind, that you are only who you

881
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: are because of your race and there and that's what

882
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: leads to the idea of privilege, that that any advantage

883
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: you have is just because of privilege. Disregarding that perhaps

884
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: you or your or your ancestors made wise, wise choices

885
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: and governed their resources prudently, we disregard all of that

886
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: and say, the only reason you are in your status

887
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: is because of privilege, and therefore the only reason other

888
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: people are in a lower status is because they lack privilege.

889
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: Those three things appropriation. The appropriation is a horrible idea

890
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: that that people shouldn't learn from each other or adopt

891
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: each other's cultural practices because they somehow belong to some

892
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: racial group. The appropriation, social constructivism, and privilege are the

893
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: three things that lead to the culture of grievance that

894
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: at its worst, most most intense state you see in

895
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: the Middle East today. If you'd explained some of those

896
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: concepts to me twenty years ago and told me they

897
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: were going to catch on, I thought that's not possible.

898
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: And references to the Nazis are so tired. But as

899
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: I've said many times, I am unfamiliar with any society

900
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: that was so enthusiastic about pinning labels on people perhaps

901
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: on their jumpsuits. Since Nazi Germany, it's astonishing to me

902
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: to see the United States of America in a position

903
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: where everybody must know you know what you are, before

904
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: they can even listen to your opinion. There are two

905
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: aspects of today's social grievance culture that are very similar

906
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: to Nazism or to proto Nazism. One of them is

907
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: the idea of group grievance. People forget that the Germans

908
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: saw themselves as victims of the Jews. They thought they

909
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: were being victimized and depressed and kept down by Jewish privilege,

910
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: and they thought of themselves as reacting against the aggressions

911
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: of the Jews. We forget that fact. The second thing

912
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: is that this idea that cultural items belong to different groups.

913
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: What what I said about appropriation, they came up with,

914
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: For example, Deutsch physics versus Youdon physic. Youd In physic

915
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: was Jewish physics, like Albert Einstein, the physics of Jewish scientists,

916
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: and that was different from good German physics, Deutsche physic,

917
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: which was culturally belonging to the Jews. And that is

918
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: exactly what we're seeing in social studies departments and even

919
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: in some science departments and universities today that are saying

920
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: that certain kinds of thinking, certain ways of thinking, belonged

921
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: to certain ethnic categories, and you shouldn't cross this category.

922
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: That's a terribly dangerous development. Wow, that is a shocking parallel,

923
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: because I've heard of that the rejection of traditional mathematics

924
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: is being you know, paternalistic and white and western and

925
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, which is just a horrifying notion

926
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: because it always leads you. You see this in particularly

927
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: in the work of Tanahsse Coats, who writes for The Atlantic. Now,

928
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: I could spend a good two hours talking about how

929
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: much I despise Coats his work, and he's won the

930
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: National Book already, want a Genius grant. He is not

931
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: a fringe figure. He got a genius grant. I didn't

932
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: realize that he's brilliant and completely deluded in my mind,

933
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: but gone. Tannahessey Coats is a white supremacist who happens

934
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: to be black. He believes that the United States is

935
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: a society based on racial class that exists for the

936
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: purpose of oppressing black people, and that white people have

937
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: no place in it. And I mean the black people

938
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: have no place in it, and that they and he

939
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: his entire book, Between the World and Me. The thesis

940
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: of that book is that black people should abandon the

941
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: American Dream, in fact, should abandoned dreaming altogether, because the

942
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: American Dream is a myth concocted by white people to

943
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: a press black people. It's a disgrace. And when he

944
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: gets to the end of the book and applause the

945
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: September eleventh hijackers, you see the degree to which that

946
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: nihilism leads to a system that that that degrades and

947
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: denigrates Black American citizens. And it's it's really offensive to

948
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: me as an American to see anyone council Black Americans

949
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: to abandon the American dream, that that Black Americans have

950
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: suffered so much for. I mean, when you when you

951
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 1: hear the term American dream today, very few people think

952
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: of James trust Low Adams, the writer who invented that phrase.

953
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: In almost everyone thinks of Martin Luther King, who articulated

954
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 1: the American Dream better than most white Americans are capable

955
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: of doing, because he was laying claim to that dream

956
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: as a fellow American. And Tana hasse Coat says, no,

957
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: his writing is organized around the principle that that is

958
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: white privilege and that America is a white supremacist nation

959
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 1: in which black people have no place. I don't know

960
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: how the ku Klux Klan should not applaud every word

961
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: that is uttered by Tanahs Coats. And that's the culture

962
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: that you lead to out of this social grievance notion.

963
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: Well that should put this podcast on the map. That

964
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: a little screed right there. Well, yeah, yeah, I tell

965
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: you what. Let's get together again and go further down

966
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: that line, because I think it's an important one. So

967
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: I got after I read his book, I got so

968
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: incensed I started writing a response to it, which is

969
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: now ninety pages long. And I have no idea what

970
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 1: to do with this. Give it to me. I'll set

971
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: it to music. I'll make it a rock. You'll do

972
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: it like a Hamilton's sort of thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly awesome.

973
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: Come up with some dances, send off for send up

974
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: for ideas of rolling out Already, you can't just use

975
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: the same melody. So I got a question for you,

976
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: and if you don't want to answer it, you can,

977
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: or we can even edit it of the podcast. But um,

978
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: I've wondered about this for a while from a libertarian

979
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: survival of Western civilization sort of thing, with demographics being

980
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: so important. Well, first of all, are you mostly an

981
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: optimist are mostly a pessimist on the future? Do you

982
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: think for the good of the world. I'm an optimist

983
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: in the long run and the pessimist in the short run.

984
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: I think it's going to get worse before it gets better,

985
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: and then I think it's gonna go off better. One

986
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: of the reasons I think it's gonna get worse and

987
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: stay bad we're headed toward in another dark ages is

988
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: the idea that, um, well, it's not an idea, it's

989
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: just a fact. Developed affluent countries stop having kids. They

990
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: just do for some reason. And it's happening all across

991
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: the Western society. You as a committed and developed Eastern society.

992
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: And I would never tell anybody who doesn't have kids

993
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: that they ought to have kids, or that it's a

994
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: good idea. Trust me, you don't want to have kids

995
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: unless you really really want to have kids, because it

996
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: is your you mean, it's just you know, I'm glad

997
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: I have kids, but it is not something you get

998
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: into lightly. You know, I think I'll get a parakeet.

999
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: It's not like that. But you're committed done not having kids.

1000
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: What do we do? What does society do to try

1001
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: to get people for that believe in capitalism and freedom

1002
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: and education to start having more kids, because currently in

1003
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: America were below the two point one live birds per

1004
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: couple to to keep society going. And they're doing it

1005
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: all over Europe. That a lot of your European countries

1006
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: have started these government programs to convince people to have kids.

1007
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: It's not working and it shouldn't work. What what do

1008
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: you do about that? Well, I'll begin that with you

1009
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: know you like my quoting so much. I've got a

1010
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: quote from you for you from Francis Bacon, who who

1011
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: writes he that has a wife and children has given

1012
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: hostages to fortune, for they are impediments to great enterprises,

1013
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: either a virtue or mischief. Certainly the best works and

1014
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: of the greatest merit for the public have proceeded from

1015
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: the unmarried or childless men, who both in affection and means,

1016
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: have married and endowed the public. So you see, I'm married,

1017
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 1: and I've married and endowed the public. Wells the only

1018
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: Bacon I'm interested in sizzling in a pen you childless pastor,

1019
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: and you and you have and and that's fine. But

1020
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: in general, it's just a fact that that capitalist democracies

1021
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: are being replaced by people coming in from other countries

1022
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: that don't believe in that sort of thing, and they're

1023
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: and they're just not having children. I don't know, since

1024
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm reminded of another quote from Walter Williams,

1025
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: who says, what do I care for future generations? What

1026
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: have they ever done for me? I'm I'm not going

1027
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: to be around to worry about that, so I'm fine

1028
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: with that. I I just think that my resources are

1029
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: better best put in this direction rather than another direction.

1030
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,479
Speaker 1: And other people have other choices, and that's fine. And

1031
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: my children are are the ideas, and I hope that

1032
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: other people's biological children will take up those ideas and

1033
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: make the world a better place and always there for

1034
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: them to do it. And and if they're not going

1035
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: to do it, then it doesn't matter, you know, one

1036
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: way or the other, whether whether there are more of

1037
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: these kids or more of those kids. Well, to paraphrase

1038
00:54:55,200 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 1: the great English philosopher Graham Nash, who's you know, if

1039
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 1: you're not having children, don't teach your children, well, teach

1040
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: your immigrants, well, teach your you know, third worlder's, your

1041
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: your Africans, your Central Americans, your Mexican folks, whatever, we

1042
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: need to aggressively and enthusiastically express the things that we've

1043
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: been chatting about. I think that's what's happening in Britain

1044
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: and France, and no, I think they're they're they've they've

1045
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: fallen into the cult of self loathing and multiculturalism to

1046
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: the point that they're afraid to defend that which is

1047
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: clearly not only good but great about Western civilization, which

1048
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: is a bizarre sort of neurosis to me. But there's

1049
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: a route, there's a there's a basis for optimism in that,

1050
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: and that is that the immigrants who are fleeing those

1051
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: oppressive societies, they already understand freedom a heck of a

1052
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: lot better than a good deal of natural born Americans,

1053
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: no doubt about that. And the societies that that have

1054
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: the self loathing and xenophilia, as like to put it,

1055
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: those societies they're the ones. They're the wealthy, upper class

1056
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: folks who aren't having kids, so they won't pass on

1057
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: those that mental infection to the next generation. So you know,

1058
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: there's I think it's impossible to predict. This is one

1059
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: of those things that falls into the realm of you know,

1060
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: the butterfly flaps its wings in Central Park and you

1061
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: have a hurricane next year. I it's impossible to predict

1062
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: what's going to result from these connections of people from

1063
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: different civilizations and cultures. And I honestly don't know, And

1064
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: I don't think that it's necessarily the case that a

1065
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: free society will go to being an unfree society for

1066
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: those demographic reasons. Well, and I hope yeah. And you know,

1067
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: probably a week after recording this podcast, there will be

1068
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: a nuclear holocaust or some sort of you know, microbe

1069
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: that wipes out three quarters of the planet, and this

1070
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: discussion will be rendered ridiculous because, as a tim points out,

1071
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: you just never which way these things are going to go.

1072
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: But I'm still enthused about trying to teach folks what

1073
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: what counts and what yields a happy society, and that

1074
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: is ironically, you know, stimulating happy individuals and on that.

1075
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: You know, that's that puts us in a in a

1076
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: good point though, and that is that one of the

1077
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: things that we advocates of freedom find to be a

1078
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: handicap when we talk to the public is that we

1079
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: can't point to any specific outcome of freedom. We can't

1080
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: say freedom will lead you to X. All we can

1081
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: say is that freedom gives you the ability to make

1082
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: a future a better future, if you choose to put

1083
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: yourself to it, and so that whereas the welfare state

1084
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: is or the communists or the socialists, he'll say, if

1085
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: you'd go my way, we will lead to X, and

1086
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: it's always a lie, but he can always point to something,

1087
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 1: even if it is just a lie, whereas we don't

1088
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: lie like that, And so we can't say no, freedom

1089
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: is not going to solve your problems for you. It's

1090
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 1: not gonna necessarily feed the hungry or in clothe the naked,

1091
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 1: although freedom tends to do that better than any other society,

1092
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: but we can't tell you for certain what the result

1093
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: of them is going to be. Instead, it's the open

1094
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: ended opportunity. It's the ability to build your own life,

1095
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: which a lot of people have a hard time picturing

1096
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: in their minds, and so they go for the lie instead,

1097
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: they go for X that's offered to them because it

1098
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: looks real, and yet it turns out to be a lot.

1099
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: It's interesting that that idea of you can be what

1100
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: you want to be, you know, with your your efforts

1101
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: and talents, is so exciting for some people and so

1102
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: frightening for others, depending on who you are, how you're built,

1103
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: or what you've learned. I guess well, it's frightening for

1104
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: me too. It's all right for anybody who thinks about

1105
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: it at all. It really is, and it and it

1106
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: ought to be. That's what stimulates you to make the

1107
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: right decisions as best you can, and to avoid the

1108
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: wrong decisions. It's when making wrong decisions is no longer

1109
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: a fearful prospect, then you really should be afraid, because

1110
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: then you're gonna make wrong decisions more so. Yeah, it's

1111
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: a fearful prospect, the idea of free society. But we

1112
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 1: know from the blasted civilizations of the past, of the

1113
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: of the desolate killing fields of the Soviet Union and

1114
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany, and the horrible stillness of oppression in Iran

1115
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: and China, we know what the lack of freedom leads to.

1116
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,919
Speaker 1: So that freedom scary. A couple of bad sports bets

1117
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 1: and I could be eating dog food. Is an old person.

1118
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: There's no doubt about it. Now you get used to it.

1119
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: Tim Sander for Vice President for Litigation at the Goldwater Institute.

1120
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: Tim big fun, great to talk to you. Let's do

1121
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: it again. Yeah, it'd be great. Thanks, guys. Ever tell

1122
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: you about the time I ate kibbles and bits at

1123
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: a party? Yes? I made people laugh. Yes, you have

1124
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: anything for the bid? Anything for the bit? Anyway? Did

1125
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: I did I ever tell you about the time I

1126
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: ate spaghettios? I would, I thought to myself. When I

1127
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: was a kid, I loved spaghettios and I was at

1128
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: the grocery store, so I bought a ken of it

1129
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: and I and I took it home and oh god,

1130
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: that stuff is disgusting. Oh it's horrifying. It is you

1131
00:59:54,160 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: can't choke it down. And so that that's the big

1132
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: Vidio's phenomenon. So that now, when I watched shows from

1133
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: the eighties, like I watched night Rider and and I

1134
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: love this show as a kid, and I tried to

1135
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: watch it, I've had that happen. I've had that happen. Yeah,

1136
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: you watch it and think this is embarrassing. Yeah, Well,

1137
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: if you had kids, don't feed them spahettios. Thank you, Tim,

1138
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: Thank you jug Lar