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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: You might have noticed that things are a little different

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Speaker 2: on Cautionary Tales this year. In twenty twenty four, we

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Speaker 2: brought you a new episode every fortnight, but this year

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Speaker 2: we are doubling our output. New stories of heart thumping peril,

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Speaker 2: mind blowing mistakes and jaw dropping scandal will now be

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Speaker 2: delivered straight to your ears every week. Here's on for

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Speaker 2: you right now. Gooday, My name's Adam Hills, and welcome

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Speaker 2: to a special children's music edition of Spicks and Specs.

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Speaker 2: Spicks and Specs is a long running staple of Australian TV.

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Speaker 2: It's an irreverent quiz show fitting mixed teams of musicians

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Speaker 2: and comedians against one another to answer questions on rock

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Speaker 2: and pop. In two thousand and seven, host Adam Hills

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Speaker 2: was presiding over a special episode dedicated to kids tunes.

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Speaker 2: There'd be lots of comic potential in that he asked

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Speaker 2: the teams to buzz in if they could name the

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Speaker 2: Australian nursery rhyme that this riff was based on the

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Speaker 2: opening bars of Men at Work song down Under played.

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Speaker 2: The two teams looked mystified which nursery rhyme down Under

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Speaker 2: is often referred to as Australia's alternative national anthem. It

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Speaker 2: is to Australians what Bruce Springsteen's Born in the USA

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Speaker 2: is to Americans. Back in the early nineteen eighties, it

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Speaker 2: was a globe smash, topping the charts in Canada, the US,

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Speaker 2: New Zealand, the United Kingdom and Switzerland. It went gold,

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Speaker 2: then platinum, then double platinum. Millions of copies were sold.

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Speaker 2: The team on Spics and Specs had no doubt heard

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Speaker 2: it hundreds, if not thousands of times, but no one

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Speaker 2: could think of an Australian nursery rhyme that sounded remotely

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Speaker 2: like it. Are you kidding? One of the exasperated contestants

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Speaker 2: asked Adam Hills. Okay, I'll give you one more. Listen

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Speaker 2: to it, said Hills, this bit especially, Hills punched his

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Speaker 2: pen in the air along to the rhythm of the

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Speaker 2: song's flute line, derda derda more blank stares. One contestant

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Speaker 2: held her head in her hands. The question was frying

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Speaker 2: her brains. Finally, someone buzzed, Inkuoker burrough sits in the

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Speaker 2: old gum tree. That's exactly right, said Hills. Believe that

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Speaker 2: someone got the answer at last watching Everyone Flummes wasn't

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Speaker 2: a memorable moments that would enter the annals of TV history?

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Speaker 2: Or was it? Someone watching Spicks and Specks that night

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Speaker 2: was certainly intrigued by the exchange and quickly reached out

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Speaker 2: to Norm Yury, managing director of Larrikin Music Publishing. Did

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Speaker 2: he know that Men at Work had used kooker bure

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Speaker 2: sits in the old gum Tree in their smash hit record?

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Speaker 2: Norm did not, but the information interested him greatly. He

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Speaker 2: now seemed to have a very value property on his hands,

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Speaker 2: because years before, and for a song, he'd bought the

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Speaker 2: rights to that simple, catchy nursery rhyme. Now, thanks to

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Speaker 2: Spicks and Specs, his company might collect a fortune. I'm

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Speaker 2: Tim Harford and you're listening to another cautionary tale. Flute

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Speaker 2: player Greg Ham was a late addition to Men at Work.

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Speaker 2: The band's founding members, the Scots born singer Colin Hay

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Speaker 2: and lead guitarist Ron Strikert, had been playing as an

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Speaker 2: acoustic duo for a year or so. They performed together

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Speaker 2: and wrote together in what friends described as a musical marriage.

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Speaker 2: Colin Hay had a folk background, but with Ron Strikert,

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Speaker 2: no style was off the table. They experimented with punky

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Speaker 2: new wave sounds and mixed in the more laid back

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Speaker 2: beats of reggae. One of their first joint compositions was

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Speaker 2: down Under, a jokey ode to the legendary wanderlust of Australians.

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Speaker 2: The song tells of an ozzy youth traveling the world

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Speaker 2: in a beaten up v W campavan, encountering strange and

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Speaker 2: exotic locals who are all transfixed by his Antipodean homeland.

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Speaker 2: Do you come from the land down Under? They would

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Speaker 2: ask him where bearders flow and men shun under Chunder

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Speaker 2: by the way his Australian slang for vomit. Down Under

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Speaker 2: paints an unsentimental yet fond picture of modern Australia, and

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Speaker 2: it went down a storm when the band, now swelled

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Speaker 2: with a bassist, drummer and Greg Ham on flute, played

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Speaker 2: it in the rowdy pubs of Melbourne. It was the

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Speaker 2: B side of their self financed first single, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the version you'd probably recognize. It had a slower,

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Speaker 2: dreamier tempo, a bit prog rock, a bit reggae, a

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Speaker 2: bit psychedelic. When the band signed to a major label,

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Speaker 2: When the track was re recorded, Greg Ham came up

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Speaker 2: with a new flute hook to enliven a sped up arrangement.

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Speaker 2: It had come to him during a live jam session

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Speaker 2: down Under was quint essentially Australian and he wanted to

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Speaker 2: add to the existing composition what he called an ossie

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Speaker 2: cleane melody Derda Derda dead Derda. Marian Sinclair had been

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Speaker 2: making up songs and rhymes since she was a girl.

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Speaker 2: An only child and home educated, Marian staved off loneliness

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Speaker 2: by creating a rich internal world of fantasy and imagination.

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Speaker 2: Piano lessons gave her the musical education to hone her

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Speaker 2: compositions and set them down on paper. She made this

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Speaker 2: youthful hobby her life, becoming a drama and music teacher

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen twenties and throwing herself into the Girl Guides,

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Speaker 2: the Australian equivalent of the Girl Scouts. It was while

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Speaker 2: in church that inspiration struck Marian, prompting her to create

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Speaker 2: by far her most popular ditty. Rushing home, she set

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Speaker 2: down cuokerburraugh sits in the old gum tree. The Kookaburra

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Speaker 2: is one of Australia's most iconic birds, carnivorous, boisterous and noisy.

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Speaker 2: Its call resembles a raucous human laugh. Gum trees, or

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Speaker 2: rather trees of the eucalyptus family, are equally iconic and

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Speaker 2: quintessentially Australian. Perhaps this subject matter swayed the judges when

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Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty four Marion entered her song for a

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Speaker 2: competition run by the Girl Guides Association of Victoria. They

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Speaker 2: wanted a typically Australian round to be sung at the

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Speaker 2: upcoming Pan Pacific Scouting Jamboree, and they chose cuoker Borough.

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Speaker 2: Rounds are simple tunes where the singers follow the same

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Speaker 2: melody but start at different times. Row Row Row your Boat,

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Speaker 2: Praier Jacqua and Three Blind Mice are prime examples. There

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Speaker 2: are fun and near full proof way for amateur singers

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Speaker 2: to achieve a pleasing harmony. You no doubt sung them

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Speaker 2: at school. Coooker Borough almost instantly became a classic of

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Speaker 2: the genre, and when the international visitors to the jamboree

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Speaker 2: returned home, they took with them this slice of Australiana,

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Speaker 2: singing it lustily from London to Lahore. Marion Sinclair didn't

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Speaker 2: cash in on this success, though heaven forbid, Marion wasn't

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Speaker 2: interested in collecting royalties from scat or guides or anyone else,

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Speaker 2: enjoying her song and encouraging others to sing it. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't until nineteen seventy five that Marian was finally persuaded

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Speaker 2: to register the composition as belonging to her, and she

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Speaker 2: was far too busy studying, teaching, aiding refugees, working with

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Speaker 2: old people, and running a hostel for girls to chase

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Speaker 2: people for copyright infringement and demand her dues. It's conceivable

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Speaker 2: that in old age she heard down Under in Australia

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Speaker 2: it was played everywhere, but she either didn't recognize any

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Speaker 2: similarities to her own composition or simply didn't care. Marian

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Speaker 2: dismissed kooker borough Sits in the Old Gum Tree as

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Speaker 2: a trifle and no match for her other songs. And

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Speaker 2: anyway it came to me from above, she'd say, I

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Speaker 2: don't own it. After a life of Christian service, Marion

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Speaker 2: Sinclair died in nineteen eighty eight, having signed over her

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Speaker 2: rights to the Library's Board of South Australia. Larakin Music

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Speaker 2: Publishing then swooped in to buy the ownership of Kookaburraugh

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Speaker 2: with an interesting business model in mind. For years, people

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Speaker 2: had assumed Marion's song was free to use, so they

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Speaker 2: had included it in books teaching youngsters to play musical

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Speaker 2: instruments and recorded it on albums of children's songs. Norm

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Speaker 2: Lewie at Larakin now busied himself delivering the bad news.

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Speaker 2: Kooker Burrough was under new ownership and it wasn't free.

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Speaker 2: Norm had spent only a few thousand dollars acquiring the rights,

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Speaker 2: a sum he'd swiftly recouped. It's earned a hell of

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Speaker 2: a lot of money for us since we've bought it,

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Speaker 2: he admitted. But thanks to spicks and specs, Larakin was

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Speaker 2: now looking at a very different proposition. Down Under had

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Speaker 2: helped Men at Work win a Grammy. Its initial success

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Speaker 2: as a single had been huge, but it had been

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Speaker 2: steadily earning on albums and Greatest Hits compilations for nearly

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Speaker 2: thirty years. Norm Lyury now wanted a cut, so sued

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Speaker 2: Men at Work for sixty percent of the profits. It

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Speaker 2: was a huge sum, and if one it was a

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Speaker 2: figure that would cause the members of Men at Work

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Speaker 2: immense suffering. Cautionary tales will be back in a moment.

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Speaker 2: Men at Work's flute maestro Greg Ham took the news

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Speaker 2: of the court case hard. I'm terribly disappointed that that's

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Speaker 2: the way I'm going to be remembered for copying something.

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Speaker 2: Greg's flute riff improvised at a jam session and overlaid

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Speaker 2: on a song written before he'd even joined the band

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Speaker 2: was threatening to sink Men at Work. If the judge

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Speaker 2: found for Larrikin Music Publishing, how would they unpick thirty

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Speaker 2: years of earnings. They'd spent that money on houses, businesses,

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Speaker 2: invested it for their old age. To suddenly hand over

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Speaker 2: sixty percent now would mean liquidating their assets, auctioning off possessions,

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Speaker 2: and putting their homes up for sale. Faced with this,

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Speaker 2: and backed by his record company, lead singer Colin Hay,

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Speaker 2: decided to fight. He was going to argue that Kuockerburough

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Speaker 2: hadn't been to use the legal term substantially reproduced in

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Speaker 2: their hit song when I co wrote down Under back

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy eight, the singer said angrily, I appropriated

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Speaker 2: nothing from anyone else's song. There was no Men at Work,

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Speaker 2: there was no flute, yet the song existed to the

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Speaker 2: judge's delight, Colins serenaded the court with a version of

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Speaker 2: the song to show that the flute riff wasn't integral

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Speaker 2: to the greater work. But Larakin's counterclaim was that greg

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Speaker 2: Ham had blatantly copied the first two bars of Kookerborough.

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Speaker 2: Colin replied that if his friend had lifted Marion Sinclair's melody,

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Speaker 2: it was inadvertent, naive, unconscious, and by the time men

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Speaker 2: at work had recorded the song it had become unrecognizable.

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Speaker 2: Colin's elderly father agreed, he'd been a singer himself and

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Speaker 2: later owned a music shop, so he knew a thing

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Speaker 2: or two about songwriting. He was incensed, said Colin. He

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Speaker 2: was getting older, and he was getting stressed. Smoke would

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Speaker 2: come out of his ears. The court case dragged on, hearings, appeals,

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Speaker 2: expert witness, self to expert witness, and the ever mounting

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Speaker 2: legal bills, and all the time the scales seemed to

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Speaker 2: be tipping in favor of Larrikin. Stressed and exasperated, it

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Speaker 2: was all too much for Colin's father. He died in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten. I do feel instinctively it contributed to knocking

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Speaker 2: him off his perch lamented his grieving son, but the

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Speaker 2: copyright case hadn't claimed its last victim, Racked with guilt

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Speaker 2: and worried about lou using his home flute player, Greg

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Speaker 2: Hamm was observed to be going downhill, had been drinking and,

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Speaker 2: according to one friend, using heroin. It was said the

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Speaker 2: dispute over down under had undone him. Copyright laws exists

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Speaker 2: to protect composers. It's very hard to write an ode

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Speaker 2: to joy, a marriage of FIGUREO or a baby shark,

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Speaker 2: but very easy to copy them. Copyright gives creators some

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Speaker 2: ability to stop copycats, and thus an incentive to do

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Speaker 2: the creative work in the first place, and historically musicians

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Speaker 2: have had a very hard time getting paid for the

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Speaker 2: tunes they've created. Back when there was a music hall

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Speaker 2: every few hundred yards on the streets of Britain, the

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Speaker 2: songs of Joseph Tabras were almost certain to be wafting out.

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Speaker 2: He was credited with over seven thousand compositions, though claimed

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Speaker 2: he had written many more. Ting ting, That's how the

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Speaker 2: Bell goes, He's Sailing on the Briny Ocean, and Oh

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Speaker 2: You Little Darling were among his hits, but all were

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Speaker 2: dwarfed by the runaway success of eighteen ninety two's Daddy

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't buy Me a Bow Wow? Did I foresee its popularity? Good,

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Speaker 2: gracious no, said Tabra. Did I make a vast fortune

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Speaker 2: out of it? Yes? Eight pounds and odd shillings eight

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Speaker 2: pounds would be just a few thousand dollars compared to

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Speaker 2: the wages of the day. That doesn't seem much of

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Speaker 2: a return for creating a song that swept the glow.

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Speaker 2: It's little wonder then that Joseph Tebra was often penniless,

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Speaker 2: a situation he described euphemistically as being impecuniously embarrassed. The

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Speaker 2: stars who sang his popular songs got rich. They took

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Speaker 2: a cut of ticket sales, and publishers got rich selling

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Speaker 2: the sheep music, but few royalties found their way to

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Speaker 2: people like Joseph Tabra, who wrote the songs in the

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Speaker 2: first place. Think of a catchy reframe, he said, of

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Speaker 2: his creative process. Think of the damn silliest words that

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Speaker 2: will rhyme anyhow. Think of a haunting, pretty melody, and

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Speaker 2: there you are. The fortune of your publisher is made.

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Speaker 2: But around the time that Daddy Wouldn't Buy Me a

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Speaker 2: Bow Wow was wowing the victorians. The music publishers were

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Speaker 2: starting to see their profits being eaten away too. So

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Speaker 2: called pirates would off copies of the newest hits on

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Speaker 2: cheap paper and employ homeless people to sell them on

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Speaker 2: the streets for pennies. The knockoff sheet music obviously didn't

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Speaker 2: include the printer's address, and the street hawkers had no

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Speaker 2: fixed abode, so how could legitimate music publishers sue the pirates.

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Speaker 2: The Musical Defense League was formed to push for a

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Speaker 2: tightening of the copyright laws and stem the hemorrhaging of profits.

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Speaker 2: The piracy of musical copyright has enormously increased, said one

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Speaker 2: of those proposing a new law, and has now reached

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Speaker 2: such alarming proportions that it is having a paralyzing effect

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Speaker 2: on the legitimate trade in musical works. Unless something was done,

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Speaker 2: threatened the Musical Defense League its members would stop publishing

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Speaker 2: new songs all together. The composers and public bushing houses

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Speaker 2: got their way. Over the course of a decade, new

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Speaker 2: copyright protections came into force, regulating sheep music, piano rolls,

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Speaker 2: wax cylinders, phonograph records, and whatever new technology might come next,

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Speaker 2: and the rights and royalties of composers were also improved.

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Speaker 2: They demand payments for their songs for the rest of

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Speaker 2: their lives and even pass these rights onto their airs

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Speaker 2: upon death. Good news. Well, there's a sharp trade off here.

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Speaker 2: If you make copyright protections very generous to creators, that

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Speaker 2: makes them richer, and it might also encourage more creative activity,

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Speaker 2: especially of really expensive projects such as movies. Although Joseph

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Speaker 2: Debra didn't seem to need much incentive to churn out

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Speaker 2: the hits. But if copyright protections are too generous to

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Speaker 2: the original creator, they limit our ability to remix and

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Speaker 2: adapt old ideas, or just to enjoy them without paying

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Speaker 2: expensive royalties. As I say, it's a trade off. The

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Speaker 2: simplest way in which the trade off bites is the

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Speaker 2: question how long should copyright protection last? In Australia, like

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Speaker 2: many countries, the answer is that music copyright lasts seventy

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Speaker 2: years from the date of the composer's death. Kooker Borough

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Speaker 2: was written in nineteen thirty two and Marion died in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, so the copyright lasts until twenty fifty eight,

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty six years for a song she

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Speaker 2: composed for fun Remember the tradeoff. We want to give

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Speaker 2: creators a temporary monopoly over their work to ensure that

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Speaker 2: they actually have an incentive to make art. But if

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Speaker 2: that properly is too strict or lasts too long, everyone

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Speaker 2: else loses out because they can't enjoy or reuse the

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Speaker 2: art without paying. So what counts as too long? I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking here as a creative person myself. I benefit from copyright.

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Speaker 2: My first book, The Undercover Economist, was published in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and five and it's still selling. So personally, I'm

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Speaker 2: happy that copyright lasts more than twenty years, But it

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Speaker 2: doesn't need to last a century. I'd still have written

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Speaker 2: the book and it would still have been published with

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Speaker 2: twenty years of copyright protection, or even with ten. But

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Speaker 2: we don't need to be extreme about this. Let's say

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Speaker 2: copyright should last twenty years after the moment of creation,

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Speaker 2: or thirty years or forty that's plenty. Kooker Borough would

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Speaker 2: still have been in the public domain from nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 2: almost a decade before down Under hit the charts. So

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Speaker 2: why are copyright terms so insanely long? Not because of

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Speaker 2: the artists themselves. Show me the author or the composer

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Speaker 2: lobbying furiously for royalties to last until after their grandchildren

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Speaker 2: are dead. No, it's all about corporate power. Large corporations

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Speaker 2: hoover up artist rights. These businesses have the scale to

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Speaker 2: enforce their ownership, taking infringes to court, and the clout

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Speaker 2: to lobby governments not to reform the copyright legislation. The

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Speaker 2: implosion of the Beatles upset many music fans, who couldn't

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Speaker 2: quite believe that there'd be no more records from the

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Speaker 2: Fab four. Concert promoters began to offer for huge sums, tens,

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Speaker 2: and then hundreds of millions for a reunion. It became

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Speaker 2: a running joke on the TV show Saturday Night Live

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Speaker 2: that it would pay three thousand dollars for the Beatles

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Speaker 2: to reform. Saturday Night Live eventually aired a sketch with

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Speaker 2: the Beatles parody band the Ruttles. Fronted by Monty Python's

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Speaker 2: Eric Idol. The Ruttles performed a raft of Beatlesque tunes

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Speaker 2: ouch instead of Help Piggy in the Middle in place

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Speaker 2: of I Am the Walrus. Audiences were delighted, and even

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Speaker 2: the real Beatles appreciated the comic send up of their work.

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Speaker 2: But this blessing wasn't sufficient to protect the Ruttles from

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Speaker 2: the lawyers. John Lennon advised us that we might have

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Speaker 2: trouble with Get Up and Go, said one Ruttle, because

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Speaker 2: it sounded so much like get Back. The Beatles had

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Speaker 2: lost the publishing rights to their songs in the late sixties,

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Speaker 2: and the new owner's ATV Music certainly didn't see the

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Speaker 2: funny side of the parody. All you need is cash.

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Speaker 2: They lodged a lawsuit, and, fearing the cost of fighting it,

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Speaker 2: the Ruttles surrendered half of the royalties and added the

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Speaker 2: names Lenon and McCartney to the writing credits. It's brutal,

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Speaker 2: said one Ruttle. I couldn't afford to get a lawyer

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Speaker 2: that would go up against these big corporations. The band

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Speaker 2: obviously wanted to sound like the Beatles, but denied directly

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Speaker 2: ripping off Lenon and McCartney. For centuries, composers have reworked

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Speaker 2: and reinterpreted one another's works, quoting a phrase here, a

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Speaker 2: melody there, and the Ruttles said they were no different.

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Speaker 2: The word ruttle is in fact a verb, they explained

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Speaker 2: to Ruttle is to copy or emulate someone you admire.

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Speaker 2: In the music business. The Beatles were ruttles. They ruttled

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Speaker 2: gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran. Mozart was a ruttle. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the Ruttles never tested this argument before a judge. It

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Speaker 2: was an expensive gamble. They weren't willing to take men

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Speaker 2: at work. However, had accepted the substantial risk to defend

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Speaker 2: their ruttling of kooker Borough, and the court was about

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Speaker 2: to hand down its final verdict. Cautionary tales will resume shortly.

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Speaker 2: I've argued that copyright lasts too long, but the case

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Speaker 2: of the Ruttles suggests another problem. Maybe copyright protection is

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Speaker 2: also too broad. Economists sometimes talk about the breadth or

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Speaker 2: the height of intellectual property protection, which in this case

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Speaker 2: means how much of kooker Borough can you take and

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Speaker 2: how radically do you have to transform it before you're

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Speaker 2: in the clear. These are more complicated questions than simply

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Speaker 2: asking how long copyright should last, Which was why down

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Speaker 2: Under ended up in court, and why the proceedings dragged

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Speaker 2: on for so long. And our attitudes to copying aren't

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Speaker 2: just a matter for the courts. They're a matter of

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Speaker 2: culture too, and I think we fuss too much about copying. Books, films,

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Speaker 2: and songs can be shallow and derivative without plagiarizing, while

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Speaker 2: a creative work that does contain plagiarism can still be

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Speaker 2: deep and original. The truth is that there's copying and

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Speaker 2: then there's copying. I'm a great admirer of Malcolm Gladwell's writing.

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Speaker 2: If I were to print ten thousand copies of his

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Speaker 2: new book, Revenge of the Tipping Point, sell them, and

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Speaker 2: keep the revenue, I'd be committing one form of intellectual

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Speaker 2: property theft, indirectly stealing money from him. If instead, I

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Speaker 2: printed by Tim Harford on the cover, I'd be committing

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Speaker 2: a different form of mischief, stealing the credit as well

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Speaker 2: as the profits. Or there's a third thing I could do.

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Speaker 2: I could add chunks of his writing to my own.

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Speaker 2: That seems crazy, but stranger things have happened. Twenty years ago,

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Speaker 2: a Broadway play was attracting praise and a Tony nomination

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Speaker 2: for its wrenchingly authentic portrayal of what makes a murderer.

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Speaker 2: The reason for the realism was soon revealed. The playwright

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Speaker 2: had lifted long uncredited passages from a magazine profile of

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Speaker 2: a real psychiatrist who studied killers that profile was by

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell. The psychiatrist was enraged and considering legal action,

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Speaker 2: and she enlisted Malcolm to back her case. He was

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Speaker 2: initially helpful until he read the script for himself.

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Speaker 1: I found it breathtaking, he said. Instead of feeling that

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Speaker 1: my words had been taken from me, I felt that

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Speaker 1: they had become part of some grander cause.

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Speaker 2: Around six hundred and seventy five of the article's words

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Speaker 2: had been taken without Malcolm's permission. These words were the

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Speaker 2: result of his work and his craft. The sentences and

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Speaker 2: paragraphs they created, lodging ideas in reader's minds, belonged to Malcolm,

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Speaker 2: and now play was benefiting from them without crediting or

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Speaker 2: compensating him.

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Speaker 1: A surveyor writer would have rewritten the quotes from me

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Speaker 1: so that their origin was no longer recognizable. But how

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Speaker 1: would I have been better off if she had disguised

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Speaker 1: the source of her inspiration.

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Speaker 2: Many people were furious on Malcolm's behalf. Having originally been fated,

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Speaker 2: the playwright was now raked over the coals for intellectual fevery.

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Speaker 2: It feels absolutely terrible, she told Malcolm. I just didn't

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Speaker 2: think I was doing the wrong thing. And Malcolm wasn't

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Speaker 2: so sure she had the ferrara over. The play had

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Speaker 2: given him a chance to think about where his own

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00:30:53,890 --> 00:30:58,210
Speaker 2: ideas had come from from the books and articles had read, speeches,

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Speaker 2: had heard, films he had seen. Malcolm admitted that some

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Speaker 2: of his phrasing used in the play was pretty similar

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00:31:05,490 --> 00:31:09,890
Speaker 2: to works already in existence. One formation of works sounded

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Speaker 2: very close to something Gandhi had once said.

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Speaker 1: The dishonesty of the plagiarism fundamentalists is to encourage us

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Speaker 1: to pretend that these chains of influence and evolution do

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Speaker 1: not exist, and that a writer's words have a virgin

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Speaker 1: birth end an internal life.

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Speaker 2: Sadly, many of the current copyright laws conformed to the

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Speaker 2: thinking of these plagiarism fundamentalists, and it was to these

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Speaker 2: standards that Men at Works down Under was being judged.

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Speaker 2: It's a big win for the underdog, said a lawyer

381
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Speaker 2: when the judgment was finally read. He was acting on

382
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Speaker 2: behalf of norm Lury and Larkin Music. Men at Work

383
00:31:58,490 --> 00:32:04,490
Speaker 2: had lost, be it intentional or subconscious. Greg Ham's flute

384
00:32:04,530 --> 00:32:09,530
Speaker 2: riff was an infringement of Larakin's ownership of cook Borough,

385
00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:14,650
Speaker 2: and the firm was owed damages. Of course, it would

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00:32:14,690 --> 00:32:17,450
Speaker 2: be disingenuous for me to say that there wasn't a

387
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:21,970
Speaker 2: financial aspect involved, said a delighted Norm Ury. But you

388
00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:25,210
Speaker 2: could just as easily say what has won out is

389
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:31,450
Speaker 2: the importance of checking before using other people's copyrights. One

390
00:32:31,530 --> 00:32:34,050
Speaker 2: person who could think of little else in the wake

391
00:32:34,130 --> 00:32:38,770
Speaker 2: of the ruling was the flute player Greg Ham. He

392
00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:42,650
Speaker 2: felt crushing guilt that he'd landed his bandmates in a

393
00:32:42,690 --> 00:32:46,410
Speaker 2: five year legal battle and tried to blot it out

394
00:32:46,690 --> 00:32:51,970
Speaker 2: with drink and drugs. Having sold his longtime home, hid

395
00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:55,650
Speaker 2: downsize to help settle the bills. It was in this

396
00:32:55,890 --> 00:33:00,610
Speaker 2: more modest apartment that Greg was found dead. He'd suffered

397
00:33:00,650 --> 00:33:03,730
Speaker 2: a heart attack, and Men at Works lead singer Colin

398
00:33:03,810 --> 00:33:08,730
Speaker 2: Hay angrily blamed the stress of the court case. It's

399
00:33:08,770 --> 00:33:13,130
Speaker 2: people you love who you're losing over litigation based on

400
00:33:13,330 --> 00:33:22,250
Speaker 2: greed and opportunism. So what did Norm Yuri and Larakin

401
00:33:22,410 --> 00:33:27,370
Speaker 2: make from suing Men at Work? They'd wanted sixty percent

402
00:33:27,490 --> 00:33:31,290
Speaker 2: of all the profits from down Under and the judge

403
00:33:31,290 --> 00:33:36,730
Speaker 2: gave them five percent, and then only on money earns

404
00:33:36,770 --> 00:33:40,370
Speaker 2: since two thousand and two, not all the way back

405
00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:44,970
Speaker 2: to Men at Works nineteen eighties Heyday. It was deemed

406
00:33:45,010 --> 00:33:49,570
Speaker 2: that a greater share would have been excessive, overreaching, and

407
00:33:49,810 --> 00:33:56,690
Speaker 2: unrealistic under copyright law. Larakin's claim of infringement had cleared

408
00:33:56,730 --> 00:34:00,250
Speaker 2: the legal bar to win the case, but the judges

409
00:34:00,450 --> 00:34:04,410
Speaker 2: spoke of their disquiet at having to find against Men

410
00:34:04,450 --> 00:34:09,850
Speaker 2: at Work. The modest damages awarded to Larakin were perhaps

411
00:34:09,890 --> 00:34:13,490
Speaker 2: a warning to vexatious litigants that they should find a

412
00:34:13,570 --> 00:34:19,090
Speaker 2: more amicable alternative to launching legal action. It's thought this

413
00:34:19,370 --> 00:34:24,250
Speaker 2: five percent settlement amounted to only around one hundred thousand dollars.

414
00:34:24,970 --> 00:34:29,770
Speaker 2: Both sides had spent millions in legal fees, so while

415
00:34:29,890 --> 00:34:32,850
Speaker 2: Men at Work had lost the case, there were really

416
00:34:33,250 --> 00:34:38,130
Speaker 2: no winners aside from the lawyers. If we don't like

417
00:34:38,250 --> 00:34:41,570
Speaker 2: that result, maybe we should think about writing a more

418
00:34:41,650 --> 00:34:49,050
Speaker 2: sensible copyright law. But there is one final surprising casualty

419
00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:53,730
Speaker 2: in this sorry tale. As one of Australia's most beloved

420
00:34:53,770 --> 00:34:56,890
Speaker 2: pop stars, Colin Hay, had been a guest on the

421
00:34:56,970 --> 00:35:01,450
Speaker 2: quiz Spicks and Specks. He and the host, Adam Hills

422
00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:06,530
Speaker 2: had become friends. We were actually quite close, said Hills,

423
00:35:07,090 --> 00:35:10,570
Speaker 2: who even house sat for the singer when Spis and

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00:35:10,690 --> 00:35:15,570
Speaker 2: Specks sparked the devastating legal dispute. Some men at work

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00:35:15,610 --> 00:35:20,370
Speaker 2: fans held Hills directly responsible. I got a lot of

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00:35:20,450 --> 00:35:25,010
Speaker 2: pretty abusive stuff on Facebook. The TV star admits it's

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00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:28,450
Speaker 2: such a weird thing to have happened that a throwaway

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00:35:28,570 --> 00:35:31,970
Speaker 2: question on a music quiz show leads to a court case.

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00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:36,770
Speaker 2: It's such an iconic, beloved Australian song, but I'll never

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00:35:36,810 --> 00:35:40,610
Speaker 2: hear it without knowing that I've got this awful connection

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00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:45,210
Speaker 2: to it. But it's the impact on his relationship with

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Speaker 2: men at work singer that most upsets Adam Hills. I

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00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:54,450
Speaker 2: haven't spoken to Colin for ages. It all got weird

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00:35:54,450 --> 00:36:00,330
Speaker 2: between us. Exhausted and embittered by the whole affair, Colin

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00:36:00,490 --> 00:36:06,050
Speaker 2: Hay found performing down Under on stage an increasingly harrowing

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00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:11,770
Speaker 2: and depressing experience. Unch into the hit and immediately be

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00:36:11,930 --> 00:36:18,050
Speaker 2: transported back to the court case. That is, until one evening,

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00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:23,170
Speaker 2: playing to a crowd of twenty five thousand people, all

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00:36:23,290 --> 00:36:30,250
Speaker 2: dancing and gleefully singing along, Colin had an epiphany. Looking

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00:36:30,290 --> 00:36:35,530
Speaker 2: out across the audience, he suddenly thought, they can't touch this.

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Speaker 2: For a full list of our sources, see the show

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00:36:55,090 --> 00:37:12,970
Speaker 2: notes at Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales is written by

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00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:16,890
Speaker 2: me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright, Alice Fines and Ryan Dilly.

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00:37:17,370 --> 00:37:20,770
Speaker 2: It's produced by Alice Fines and Marilyn Rust. The sound

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00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:24,170
Speaker 2: design and original music are the work of Pascal Wise.

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00:37:24,570 --> 00:37:29,010
Speaker 2: Additional sound design is by Carlos san Juan at Brain Audio.

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00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:33,370
Speaker 2: Bend daf Haffrey edited the scripts. The show features the

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00:37:33,450 --> 00:37:38,290
Speaker 2: voice talents of Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Oliver Hembrough, Sarah Jupp,

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00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:43,210
Speaker 2: massaam Monroe, Jamal Westman, and rufus Wright. The show also

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00:37:43,290 --> 00:37:46,210
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg,

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00:37:46,290 --> 00:37:51,130
Speaker 2: Greta Cohne, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan,

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00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:56,050
Speaker 2: Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production

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00:37:56,170 --> 00:38:00,570
Speaker 2: of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardore Studios in London

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00:38:00,890 --> 00:38:04,410
Speaker 2: by Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember

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00:38:04,450 --> 00:38:07,290
Speaker 2: to share, rate and review. It really makes a difference

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00:38:07,330 --> 00:38:09,050
Speaker 2: to us and if you want to hear the show,

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00:38:09,170 --> 00:38:12,250
Speaker 2: add free sign up to Pushkin Plus on the show

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Speaker 2: page on Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin dot fm, slash

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Speaker 2: plus