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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Buck Sexton Show podcast. Make sure

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Speaker 1: you subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Buck Brief.

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Speaker 1: Everybody on this episode our friend Oron McIntyre, host of

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Speaker 1: the Orton McIntyre Show at the Blaze and now author

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Speaker 1: of his latest book, The Total State. It is total

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Speaker 1: and it is a state. He's gonna talk to us

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Speaker 1: about it. What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Oron? Hey man, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So total State? Walk me through this one feels like

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Speaker 1: these days we talk about liberty and constitutional rights and

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Speaker 1: the system in charge treats that all like it's a suggestion,

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Speaker 1: if not a joke. What is the total State?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly, man, I like you, I probably you know.

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Speaker 2: I grew up listening to talk radio as kind of

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Speaker 2: a standard issue talk radio Republican, and then twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: happened and we all got locked in our houses. We

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Speaker 2: couldn't go to church, we couldn't go to work, you

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Speaker 2: couldn't go outside. And then everything happened with BLM, the riots,

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Speaker 2: the election, and I just looked around and I was like,

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Speaker 2: what happened all that liberty? Right? I was told the

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Speaker 2: Constitution was going to stand in the way of all

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Speaker 2: this stuff. We were going to have this separation of

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Speaker 2: powers and everything that was going to stop the government.

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Speaker 2: When tyranny came and nothing happened, and I was kind

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Speaker 2: of blown away, And so the Total State the book

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Speaker 2: is really my attempt to kind of document that crisis

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Speaker 2: and my faith of like the Constitution, the American system,

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Speaker 2: and what went on, like I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: people had during that time. And so I walked through

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Speaker 2: this journey of how liberal democracies around the world kind

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Speaker 2: of randomly became tyrannys in the year twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's that Fukuyama End of History essay, which

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Speaker 1: I think started out as or it was an essay

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Speaker 1: in Foreign Affairs. Is also a longer version of it

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Speaker 1: that's sold the thinking book form, or maybe that maybe

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Speaker 1: the essays just sold as was bo camera, but it's

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Speaker 1: Fugiyama End of History. It's like democracy is basically one world.

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Speaker 1: What if we're at the end of liberty, meaning what

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Speaker 1: if we're at a place where, you know, America is

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Speaker 1: the only country that I can think of where there's

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Speaker 1: any real sense of get off my law and government,

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Speaker 1: leave me alone. I'm going to keep my guns. And

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Speaker 1: there are some lines you shall not cross. I think

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Speaker 1: the I think some of those lines were crossed your

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Speaker 1: point in twenty twenty and beyond during COVID pandemic. But

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Speaker 1: we're the outlier. So if we're not really free, is

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Speaker 1: anybody really free? As in, does everybody just want a

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Speaker 1: total state now? And they don't know it yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the things that happened in America were egregious, but

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Speaker 2: you're right that here we got off better than most places.

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Speaker 2: It was even more insane in places like Canada and Australia.

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Speaker 2: And Fukiyama's thesis in the end of history was that

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Speaker 2: liberal democracy and capitalism had kind of solved the government question, right,

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Speaker 2: the USSR had collapsed. All meaningful opposition to the ideas

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Speaker 2: of America and the wider West was over, and so

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Speaker 2: the only question was how much better would we get

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Speaker 2: at democracy? How much better would we get at capitalism?

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Speaker 2: History was over and now was just about perfecting the

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Speaker 2: institutions that had proven to be the best. But what

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Speaker 2: we saw, like you said in twenty twenty, was that

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Speaker 2: actually that battle isn't over. In that many people who

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Speaker 2: thought they lived under this system of freedom and rights

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Speaker 2: actually found themselves snapping right into line when the jack

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Speaker 2: boots came. And so, as you said, the question really

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Speaker 2: becomes what is in charge if it isn't this liberal

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Speaker 2: democracy that we believe in. And the answer I come

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Speaker 2: to in the total state is that actually we've all

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Speaker 2: been conquered by system called managerialism, and that managerialism manifested

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Speaker 2: itself differently in say, communist Russia than it did in

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Speaker 2: the United States, but it slowly come to dominate all

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Speaker 2: of the governments in the modern world.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about managerialism. That's an interesting concept.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, sorry, yeah. James Burnham is a guy

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Speaker 2: who many people might be familiar with. He's actually one

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Speaker 2: of the people, along with William F. Buckley, who started

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Speaker 2: the National Review, but many people forget that his most

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Speaker 2: influential book was about the Managerial Revolution. His thesis was

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Speaker 2: that while we looked at these different governments communism, fascism,

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Speaker 2: liberal democracy, actually all of the governments in the modern

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Speaker 2: world at the time he was writing, which was the

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Speaker 2: nineteen forties, kind of fell under the same system, which

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Speaker 2: was this idea of managerialism where the power of the

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Speaker 2: democracy the people actually needed to be managed and needed

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Speaker 2: to be channeled through experts, Experts who were good at

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Speaker 2: mass consumption, mass production, transportation, communication, armed forces. Everything had

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Speaker 2: to be funneled through these large managerial bureaucracies, and so

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Speaker 2: we did have different flavors of managerialism. It came to

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Speaker 2: dominate all of these different countries because if you wanted

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Speaker 2: to become modern, if you wanted to be able to

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Speaker 2: mass produce things, distribute things, scale up your society, and

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Speaker 2: go ahead and create larger institutions, you needed to deploy

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Speaker 2: the expertise of managers. And these managers created reliable systems

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Speaker 2: that we depended on to deliver the food and the

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Speaker 2: entertainment and everything else that we now think of is

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Speaker 2: kind of ubiquitous in our society. And those forms have

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Speaker 2: particular things that they produce, particular behaviors that they favor.

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Speaker 2: And that's why even though you would think that communist

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Speaker 2: China and I don't know, the government of the United

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Speaker 2: States should have different goals. They say they have different

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Speaker 2: ideological structures, but we're seeing that they're getting closer and

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Speaker 2: closer together at every step. And the reason why is

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Speaker 2: that they're both embracing this idea of managerialism.

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Speaker 1: What freedoms do we really have still in this country?

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Speaker 1: I mean, we we've run the experiment. We ran kind

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Speaker 1: of the stress test with COVID where you don't actually

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Speaker 1: have the freedom to worship right because you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: could sneeze on you and then everyone dies because COVID h.

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Speaker 1: So you didn't have the freedom to go to church

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Speaker 1: in agog, mosque, wherever, you know, temple, whatever religion you are,

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Speaker 1: You don't have the freedom of religion. Clearly don't have

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Speaker 1: freedom of speech because we have the government colluding with

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Speaker 1: big tech to shut people down these days. You know,

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Speaker 1: whether they say it's hate speech or it's disinformation or

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Speaker 1: just wrong think, they will use government and private sector

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Speaker 1: mechanisms to shut you down and do those in conjunction

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Speaker 1: and act like somehow that's not just using agency of

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Speaker 1: the private sector for government means. And I mean I

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Speaker 1: go down the list, right, I mean, the right to

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Speaker 1: bear arms kind of sort of depends where you are,

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Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying? Like it feels these

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Speaker 1: days that we talk about the Land of the Free,

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Speaker 1: the home of the brave. Yeah, we got a lot

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Speaker 1: of brave people still, But are we free. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I increasingly feel like we tell ourselves that we're free.

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Speaker 1: And you can say that to yourself even if you,

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Speaker 1: let's say, own your house outright, but you got to

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Speaker 1: rent it from the government every year in pay taxes.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Like, what exactly can

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Speaker 1: you do where you are actually free?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Not much anymore? Right, The state has grown again

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Speaker 2: to this massive size and this level of intrusion that

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Speaker 2: it feels like it controls every aspect. And you're right

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Speaker 2: to point out the collusion between the public and the

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Speaker 2: private sector. One of the things we tend to pride

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Speaker 2: ourselves about in the United States is this idea of

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Speaker 2: the division between the state and the private sector. And

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Speaker 2: we know that the Bill of Rights and constitutional limitations

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Speaker 2: primarily pertain to the government itself. That's where all of

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Speaker 2: these careful restrictions that the founders built in are supposed

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Speaker 2: to be applied. However, what the government has figured out

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Speaker 2: is really that it can go ahead and collude with

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Speaker 2: the private sector. And the private sector is happy to

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Speaker 2: do this because it gives them additional power and influence.

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Speaker 2: It tends to give them monopolies and the different areas

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Speaker 2: that they run things. And so they go ahead and

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Speaker 2: weave this pattern together of these different managerial bureaucracies and apparatuses.

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Speaker 2: And this is why we see a revolving door between corporations,

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Speaker 2: government entities, non government entities all working together. The same

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Speaker 2: personnel tend to shift from one to the other. They're

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Speaker 2: all connected, and the reason is that they're all working

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Speaker 2: in a similar direction. I don't think there's one large

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Speaker 2: over arching conspiracy between these people where they kind of

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Speaker 2: hand down their orders from some kind of Buildeberg cheat sheet. However,

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Speaker 2: I do think they all share the same value set,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of the progressive morality that they got

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Speaker 2: from the institutions that they all tended when they we

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Speaker 2: were young, which was college. And this serves as kind

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Speaker 2: of the church of the progressive total state, which gives

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Speaker 2: them all kind of the marching orders, the moral basis

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Speaker 2: on which they're going to make their depinion their decisions.

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Speaker 2: And then when they start working, they kind of just

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Speaker 2: naturally network and work together or as the same goal. Though,

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Speaker 2: as we can see from things like the Twitter fires files,

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Speaker 2: that collusion is getting more and more explicit in its nature.

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Speaker 1: in Do people think that they want a much bigger

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Speaker 1: state than they realize? Or rather, do people want a

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Speaker 1: much bigger state than they think? That's why I meant

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Speaker 1: to ask that question, as in, we're thirty four trillion

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Speaker 1: dollars in debt. Everything, Oh my gosh, the debt's so bad,

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Speaker 1: and Republicans will say, oh, the debts and it is right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just as a function of numbers, you look

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Speaker 1: at what interest payments look like. It's effectively intergenerational theft

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Speaker 1: that's going on. But put that aside for a second.

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Speaker 1: Anytime you talk to Republican about this, you say yeah,

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Speaker 1: they say it's terrible. I say, oh, I agree, it's terrible.

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Speaker 1: They go, well, maybe we should do something about it.

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Speaker 1: And then we say, let's cut something. And if you

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Speaker 1: want to cut anything, that would be meaningful to the

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Speaker 1: trillion dollars extra we're spending each year now give or take,

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Speaker 1: to add to the thirty four trillion dollars we're already

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Speaker 1: in debt. You know what happens, people scream and freak

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Speaker 1: out at you on the right. So do we just

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Speaker 1: do we all want a bigger government than we're willing

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Speaker 1: to admit. Is that where things are now I start

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Speaker 1: to get a little a little cynical about this.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think what it is is really the incentive

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Speaker 2: structure of democracy. In democracy, let's be really clear, vote

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Speaker 2: buying is the most effective strategy. Nobody wants to vote

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Speaker 2: for rosterity mode. Nobody wants to vote for fiscal responsibility.

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Speaker 2: We all like it in theory. But as long as

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Speaker 2: we can go ahead and hand that buck down to

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Speaker 2: the next generation, like you said, we can go ahead

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Speaker 2: and pass it down and do this intergenerational theft, then

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Speaker 2: we don't really notice. The truth is that if people

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Speaker 2: have the option to go ahead and choose whether to

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Speaker 2: get the money now and worry about the consequences later,

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Speaker 2: they're almost always going to do that, especially in a

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Speaker 2: democracy where we kind of get to collectively hand that

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Speaker 2: responsibility over. Maybe you wouldn't do that individually, maybe you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't go ahead and get a payday loan as an individual,

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Speaker 2: but as a massive people, yeah, we do that over

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Speaker 2: and over again. And Alexis to Tokville warned us about

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Speaker 2: this when he observed the beginnings of democracy in America

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Speaker 2: He said that as soon as the people can go

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Speaker 2: ahead and figure out that the convote themselves money, you're

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Speaker 2: in a lot of problems because that will always be

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Speaker 2: the way that people choose to go. Especially as we

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Speaker 2: go ahead and remove that connection to the consequences, Fewer

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Speaker 2: and fewer people in the United States effectively pay access,

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Speaker 2: so they don't really feel that burden. It's spread across

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Speaker 2: a smaller and smaller handful of property owners, and that

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Speaker 2: has its own problems. It means that the individual is

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Speaker 2: less invested in the country that they're supposed to be

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Speaker 2: paying for.

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Speaker 1: It just feels like the situation doesn't improve at all. Right,

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Speaker 1: it continues to get like the state. We're always on

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Speaker 1: defense against the encroachments of the state. So I assume

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Speaker 1: in the book, which I have a copy of, and

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Speaker 1: I will read, uh, you get in to some of

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Speaker 1: the how do we at least start to you know,

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Speaker 1: I always tell everybody if you're looking at a conservative

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Speaker 1: political book, the last chapter is usually you know, how

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Speaker 1: do we turn this around? Everybody get more involved, like

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Speaker 1: get involved in your school board. Right, okay, fine, how

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Speaker 1: do we start to turn the trajectory in the other direction?

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Speaker 1: It's going to take out. There's a long term project.

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Speaker 1: We've been getting our butts kicked on the right in

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Speaker 1: terms of the encroachment of the state for a long time,

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Speaker 1: in part because the left is doing it and we

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Speaker 1: do it too. We just think we do it for

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Speaker 1: better reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a maybe a less hopeful last chapter

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Speaker 2: on this one. I do think there are steps that

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Speaker 2: we can take, but I think we are going through

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Speaker 2: a process. I think that the things that are happening

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Speaker 2: to us are actually part of a larger movement that's

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Speaker 2: happening to all societies, which is the scaling up and massification.

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Speaker 2: I don't think countries were meant to grow into these giant,

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Speaker 2: world spanning empires. I don't think everything can be connected

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Speaker 2: this way. I don't think that we can go ahead

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Speaker 2: and spread out our responsibilities as individuals into a million

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Speaker 2: different organizations and expect them to continue to function. The

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Speaker 2: truth is that we embrace the total state because it

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Speaker 2: took responsibility off of our shoulders. We no longer have

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Speaker 2: to care for our parents, We no longer have to

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Speaker 2: educate our children. We no longer have to take care

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Speaker 2: of the person next to us. We don't have to

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Speaker 2: care about our community because eventually we can go ahead

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Speaker 2: and hand that power over to the state. And as

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Speaker 2: much as we might whine about that as conservatives, really,

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Speaker 2: in truth, most of us are not willing to take

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Speaker 2: on that individual responsibility. John Adams told us who the

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Speaker 2: Constitution was there to govern. It was there to govern

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Speaker 2: a moral and religious people, and it was inadequate to

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Speaker 2: govern any other. Well, now we're the other, and the

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Speaker 2: Constitution is not governing us well because we are not

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Speaker 2: virtuous enough to take on the responsibilities of the Constitution.

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Speaker 1: So we're screwed. Basically. Good to know. I'm not the

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Speaker 1: only one who thinks us. I mean, people keep asking

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Speaker 1: me like, what's the and I always say, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the long run, we're all dead. Got to enjoy

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Speaker 1: your life as much as you can and do the

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Speaker 1: best stuff you can. But if you're worried about the

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Speaker 1: trajectory of the country, history is comforting. It's for me

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Speaker 1: at least, like being somebody who enjoys reading history. It's

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Speaker 1: comforting because you get to learn about what's happened before,

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Speaker 1: and everyone's been through everything in some way or another,

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Speaker 1: and people have been through much worse than any of us.

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Speaker 1: But also everybody who's come before us has died, and

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Speaker 1: nobody even really remembers or cares all that much at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, and then you start to

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Speaker 1: feel a little nihilistic about things. So I feel like,

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Speaker 1: if you're gonna worry about the American Empire and its future,

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll do the best we can. But quite honestly,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know how this thing is

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Speaker 1: going to turn out at this point. You know, most

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Speaker 1: great empires fall. Look a look at the show. Do

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Speaker 1: you ever watch The Crown?

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Speaker 2: I have not seen that one.

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Speaker 1: Now, Oh, okay, it's funny because people love the show.

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Speaker 1: It's really just a very well shot, like visually pleasing,

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Speaker 1: long slow death of Great Britain. Like that's what sure

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Speaker 1: from from the end of World War two to basically

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Speaker 1: close to modern day or you know, maybe it stops.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I haven't finished it yet, but twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago or something, think and you're just watching Great

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Speaker 1: Britain become a second rate power that is becoming obsolete

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Speaker 1: and like there's nothing anyone. It's kind of like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: here we are. It's getting just getting less wealthy and

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Speaker 1: less influential every year. I feel like, Eh, it happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The one thing to remember is that every civilization

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Speaker 2: does have its moments. It rises, it gains in greatness,

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Speaker 2: and then eventually it does decline. Now, hopefully we're not

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Speaker 2: in that situation. The Roman Republic did in but the

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Speaker 2: Roman Empire rose to greatness and continued for a very

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Speaker 2: long time. I don't want to say that's where we're at.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure exactly you know, how our history will unfold,

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Speaker 2: what the morphology of our civilization will be. But I

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Speaker 2: think we do need to recognize that we are in

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Speaker 2: a turning point. We do have kind of an epochal

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Speaker 2: change that is happening in society, and one thing we

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Speaker 2: can do is to go ahead and assume personal responsibility

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Speaker 2: in our own lives and our own communities that can

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Speaker 2: at least sheltered to some extent from whatever comes next. See.

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Speaker 1: I have a theory about this as well, about the

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Speaker 1: personal part of that. I want to come back to

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Speaker 1: it and throw it your way. Total State is the book,

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Speaker 1: or as you can tell a super smart guy, so

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Speaker 1: get your copy of it. But you know, I keep

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Speaker 1: hearing about people that are like, oh, well, why should

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Speaker 1: I have gold and silver. I have gold and silver

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Speaker 1: at home. Gold and silver talking about history before over history,

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Speaker 1: you see, it maintains value. It's store of value. And

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Speaker 1: when things get really tough financially, when big changes come economically,

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Speaker 1: precious metals do very well. Here's why you can have

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Speaker 1: precious metal, to have tangible currency on hand. It's just

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Speaker 1: part of a bug out plant or to whether the storm,

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Speaker 1: so to speak of a real financial calamity, Portfolio diversification,

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Speaker 1: hedge against inflation, store of value, gold increases over time.

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Speaker 1: There's all these different reasons why you can have gold

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Speaker 1: and silver on hand. I'm not saying, you know, pile

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Speaker 1: everything you have into these things, that's crazy. It's have

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Speaker 1: an appropriate amount on hand for your portfolio. Global events

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Speaker 1: just show you how quickly instability can spiral out of control.

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Speaker 1: But there are countries out there, countries, nation states that

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Speaker 1: are hoarding gold and silver and buying more and more

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Speaker 1: of it. So nobody can predict the future with any

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Speaker 1: real accuracy, but you can take steps now to prepare

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Speaker 1: for any uncertainty. The Oxford Gold Group, that's who I

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Speaker 1: trust for my gold and silver. That's how you should

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Speaker 1: go to. They make owning gold and silver simple and

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Speaker 1: easy call the Oxford Gold Group. You might qualify for

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Speaker 1: up to ten thousand dollars in free precious metals the

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Speaker 1: numbers eight three three nine nine five gold eight three

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Speaker 1: three nine nine to five g O l D eight

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Speaker 1: three three nine nine to five gold or in. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, people become all obsessed on the left with

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Speaker 1: climate change. I mean, I've been given the right a

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Speaker 1: hard time here, but at least the right lives in reality, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we all have our weaknesses, like

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Speaker 1: I eat too much chocolate, Like people don't ever want

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Speaker 1: to change medicare, Like I understand right like this, but

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Speaker 1: that that's those are real things. The left will get

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Speaker 1: all upset about climate change and they'll say I can't

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Speaker 1: have kids because or I shouldn't have children because you know,

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Speaker 1: climate change footprint and all this sort of stuff. But

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Speaker 1: to me, people like that, people like to wallow in. Oh,

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Speaker 1: massive events are going against me. Everything is falling apart,

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Speaker 1: so therefore it doesn't matter that I'm personally a mess

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Speaker 1: and like, don't take care of my people and don't

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Speaker 1: take care of myself. And I feel like that's one

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Speaker 1: of the root fallacies we have in America. These days.

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Speaker 1: That's my thought for you. What do you make of it?

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Speaker 2: No, that's absolutely right. Like I said, much of the

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Speaker 2: power that we've given up to the government, A bunch

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Speaker 2: of the reason that the government has been able to

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Speaker 2: expand the way it has is that we have slowly

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Speaker 2: given up on our ability to take care of our own,

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Speaker 2: take care of our community, do the things that we're

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Speaker 2: essential to our own liberty. And while I don't think

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Speaker 2: we're going to suddenly retain all of that liberty or

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Speaker 2: regain all that liberty simply because we go ahead and

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Speaker 2: you know, take care of the guy next to us,

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Speaker 2: or attend our church more, or you know, run for

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Speaker 2: school board or anything. I do. I think that there

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Speaker 2: are key steps that we can take when things come apart.

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Speaker 2: We've noticed that it does matter who's in charge of localities.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about the COVID experience. Right, A lot

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Speaker 2: of people put their eyes on Ron DeSantis and Florida.

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Speaker 2: Many people move to my home state because they recognize

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Speaker 2: that who was in charge mattered, And the fact that

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Speaker 2: Florida was able to go ahead and take serious action

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Speaker 2: on its own to protect its people during that time

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Speaker 2: made a real difference in the way that they live

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Speaker 2: their lives. It doesn't solve every problem. We're still subject

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Speaker 2: to a lot of serious issues that have a more

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Speaker 2: national character, like mass immigration. But the quality of life

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Speaker 2: in Florida is notably different, and there's a reason people

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Speaker 2: make the choice to move here. And so if we

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Speaker 2: go ahead and take action, especially think about something like

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Speaker 2: a local sheriff has a big control over whether or not, say,

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Speaker 2: violations of the Second Amendment get enforced. Inside is jurisdiction

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Speaker 2: that can have a real impact on your life, your community,

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Speaker 2: the well being of your family. And so while general

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Speaker 2: fate of the United States may be in question, you

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Speaker 2: can still take very serious and important action to take

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Speaker 2: care of those around you. And I don't think anyone

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Speaker 2: should despair or shirk that duty just because you know

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Speaker 2: the federal government of the United States is incompetent.

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Speaker 1: There we go. That's about as hopeful as we're going

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Speaker 1: to get here. So orin thank you so much the

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Speaker 1: total state, great work. Appreciate you being here. Checkout ooron

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Speaker 1: show on the Blaze at well as well. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: my friend, thanks for having me