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Speaker 1: On March twenty fourth, nineteen eighty four, five children and

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Speaker 1: their mother, twenty eight year old Elva Lupercio, were killed

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Speaker 1: in an apartment building fire. It was originally ruled accidental,

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Speaker 1: but a fire captain who was unseen unofficially may have

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Speaker 1: had some reservations about that finding. Then, in November nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty seven, a man named Dwayne Glasgow, who lived nearby

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty four fire, was arrested for burglary and

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Speaker 1: offered some information that back in nineteen eighty four, looking

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Speaker 1: out an attic window, he had seen his old roommate

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Speaker 1: James Kluppelberg walking back and forth to the building before

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Speaker 1: the fire and later admitting to setting it. And then,

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Speaker 1: in December nineteen eighty seven, while coincidentally reporting an unrelated arson,

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Speaker 1: James Kloppelberg was questioned about the nineteen eighty four fire

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Speaker 1: and allegedly gave an oral confession in January nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: Even though allegations of coercion shed doubt on the statement,

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Speaker 1: testimony from Glasgow and the fire captain were enough to

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Speaker 1: send James away for six natural life sentences plus fourteen years.

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Speaker 1: But this is wrongful conviction Welcome back to wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: This is an arson case. I hate arson cases. I

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Speaker 1: think it's one of the worst of all the junk sciences.

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Speaker 1: It's also a torture case because the man we're going

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Speaker 1: to be speaking to is just another victim of the

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Speaker 1: torture crew in the Chicago PD under Lieutenant John Burge.

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Speaker 1: And before I even introduce James Kloppelberg, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: first reintroduce somebody who our listeners will probably recognize, Carl Leonard.

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Speaker 1: Carl is an attorney at the Exoneration Project in Illinois.

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Speaker 1: So Carl, welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: So James, I'm sorry. I think, like the city of Chicago, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: the country, everybody owes you in a post and more.

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Speaker 1: But I'm so glad you're here and I appreciate you

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Speaker 1: being here with us today.

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Speaker 3: My pleasure and thank you for having me. It's a

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Speaker 3: true honor, James.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into the awful occurrence that happened in

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Speaker 1: Chicago that led to the deaths for which you were

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Speaker 1: years later wrongfully convicted, your life wasn't easy from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Is that fair to say?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that would be a fair representation. I had a

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Speaker 3: low income childhood, so to speak, with three sisters and

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Speaker 3: a brother and my mother. We moved around a lot.

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Speaker 3: I think at one point, probably about once a year

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Speaker 3: for like a decade ish or so. Growing up. I

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Speaker 3: remember going to a lot of different schools, almost a

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Speaker 3: different one every year, and things were tough, you know,

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Speaker 3: as far as finances and everything. But for the most part,

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Speaker 3: my mother always made sure there was food on the

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Speaker 3: table and we were loved and taken care of.

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Speaker 1: By the time James was eighteen years old, he had

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Speaker 1: been married, and during a rough patch, he was temporarily

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Speaker 1: staying with his friends Don Graymont and Dwayne Glasgow, who

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Speaker 1: lived about four doors down from where this far I occurred.

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Speaker 1: A few weeks later, the couple had their own troubles,

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Speaker 1: along with two kids and another one on the way.

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Speaker 3: On February sixteenth of eighty four, she gave birth to

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Speaker 3: her third child and Dwayne took her to the hospital

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Speaker 3: and I was staying over so I watched the other

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Speaker 3: two children. I got a phone call from her that evening.

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Speaker 3: He had not returned yet, and she asked if I

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Speaker 3: was still looking for a place to stay. I said yeah.

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Speaker 3: She said, well you can move into the bedroom up

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Speaker 3: in the attic. You want to help me out with

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Speaker 3: the bills, fine, whatever. I said, Well, what's he going

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Speaker 3: to say about this? She said, I don't care. That's

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Speaker 3: the catch. I want you to pack his stuff. I

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Speaker 3: want him out. Apparently, while she was giving birth to

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Speaker 3: his third child, he was in the waiting room with

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Speaker 3: his girlfriend and a gym bag with some beer, kicking back,

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Speaker 3: having a good time. The nurses told her what was

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Speaker 3: going on, obviously, and so when he came home that evening,

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Speaker 3: his stuff was packed and I told him there's the door.

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Speaker 3: She basically dumped Dwayne because of things that weren't working

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Speaker 3: out between the two of them. Me and down ended

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Speaker 3: up starting a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Somehow, this didn't cramp your friendship or theirs?

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, that was the thing. A couple days before

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Speaker 3: the fire, he had came back, knocking at the door,

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Speaker 3: asked to talk to her. She came into the kitchen.

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Speaker 3: She's like, he's got nowhere to go. Can he stay upstairs?

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Speaker 3: I'm like, this is your house because by that time,

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Speaker 3: obviously I'd moved downstairs. I said, this is your house

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Speaker 3: if that's what you want. Fine, and so he was

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Speaker 3: actually staying there in the upstairs where I was originally staying,

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Speaker 3: and I was gone all day that day the fire occurred.

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Speaker 3: I was at my ex wife's house taking care of

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Speaker 3: things over there. Came home that night. They were him,

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Speaker 3: his girlfriend and Dawn. They were fairly intoxicated, and several

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Speaker 3: hours into the night, you know, me and Don had

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Speaker 3: had some arguments, and I entered and left a few

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Speaker 3: times to cool off, and came back in and we

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Speaker 3: were sitting around the kitchen table talking and next thing

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Speaker 3: we know, we see this fire. We got the kids

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Speaker 3: out of the house, put them in my car. The

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Speaker 3: fire went on for several hours.

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Speaker 1: Carl, if you could take us back and explain what

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Speaker 1: happened on that awful, awful night. This was back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, March twenty fourth. I mean, whether whether

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Speaker 1: it was arson or not, we know that James had

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with it. But this was a tragedy.

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Speaker 2: It was a tragedy. It's an incredibly sad case. It

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Speaker 2: happened early in the morning. There was an apartment building

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Speaker 2: on the south side of Chicago. The first floor was vacant,

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Speaker 2: and a fire started on that first floor and there

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Speaker 2: was a family that lived upstairs. Seven people in the family,

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Speaker 2: a husband and wife, five kids, and the fire unfortunately

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Speaker 2: killed the mom and the children.

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Speaker 1: Twenty eight year old Elva Lupercio and her five children Santos, Sonya, Cristo, Bell, Gadira,

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Speaker 1: and Annabel, all of whom were living on the second floor,

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Speaker 1: died and her husband managed to escape. His name was Santos,

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Speaker 1: but he suffered a frash, furt skull, and severe burns.

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Speaker 2: So just a terrible, terrible tragedy. At that time in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: fires were investigated by the Chicago Police Department. It had

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Speaker 2: a bomb and Arson unit which was in charge of

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Speaker 2: investigating suspicious fires, and they did an investigation and concluded

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Speaker 2: that the fire was most likely an accident.

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Speaker 1: Testing for the presence of accelerants came up negative, closing

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Speaker 1: the case as a tragic accident not a crime. Until

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Speaker 1: November nineteen eighty seven when Dwayne Glasgow was arrested for burglary, theft,

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Speaker 1: and violating probation, and he brought up the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: four fire. According to Glasgow, he had watched through an

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Speaker 1: attic window as James went back and forth to the

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Speaker 1: building right before the fire, and that James later admitted

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Speaker 1: to setting the blaze. Meanwhile, back in nineteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: now twenty two years old, James was a plumber and

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Speaker 1: electrician while moonlighting as a security guard. He and his

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Speaker 1: girlfriend Bonnie had plans to get married when in December

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, coincidentally, a month after Glasgow's statement, James

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Speaker 1: reported an actual arson. While working at his security job.

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Speaker 3: One of the apartment complexes that I was assigned to,

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Speaker 3: an automobile caught fire. I saw somebody running from the

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Speaker 3: parking lot that night and a couple police detectives came

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Speaker 3: to see me. I was at a job site and

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Speaker 3: they said they needed me to look at mugshots. I said, sure,

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Speaker 3: no problem, but it'll have to wait till I'm done.

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Speaker 3: I'm in the middle of one of the worst winners

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Speaker 3: Chicago had had and like forever, and I was thawing

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Speaker 3: frozen pipes at this building. They informed me I was

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Speaker 3: going with them one way or another. They took me

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Speaker 3: to a leventh and State informed me that there was

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Speaker 3: a witness that claims to have saw me start the

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Speaker 3: automobile fires, but that he couldn't get down there for

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Speaker 3: several hours because he was at work. If I wanted

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Speaker 3: to go home, now, all I had to do was

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Speaker 3: take a polygraph test proved that I didn't do it,

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Speaker 3: and they'd let me go. I said, sure, no problem,

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Speaker 3: let's go. They take me to another floor inside a

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Speaker 3: dimly lit room. It soundproofed. A gentleman says he needs

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Speaker 3: me to sign a waiver, and I was barely able

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Speaker 3: to make out that it said that I was about

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Speaker 3: to be questioned for a fire concerning six deaths in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four. I told the examiner that this is

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Speaker 3: the wrong form, that this is not what I was

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Speaker 3: here for. I said, I'm not signing that, and he

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Speaker 3: stepped out of the room. The detective that brought me

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Speaker 3: down burst into the room, threw me up against the wall,

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Speaker 3: put a pair of handcuffs on me, drug me upstairs,

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Speaker 3: and him and his partner then proceeded to beat me

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Speaker 3: for next several hours.

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Speaker 1: So you were one of the countless victims suspects, as

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Speaker 1: well as some witnesses who were brutally tortured inside these

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Speaker 1: Chicago ped torture chambers disguised as interrogations.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they laid me face down on the ground while

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Speaker 3: one of them pulled my cuffs my arms towards my shoulders.

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Speaker 3: The other one proceeded to kidney shot me or continued

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Speaker 3: to beat me in my lower back area until I

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Speaker 3: started hemorrhaging blood through my urin. I was a urinated myself.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot of blood in the urine at

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Speaker 3: the time, and I uttered the words I did it,

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Speaker 3: and they stopped the beating.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you probably would have confessed a Kennedy assassination, truthfully.

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Speaker 3: Yes. At one point they wanted me to sign a

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Speaker 3: confession and also removed his weapon from his holster and

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Speaker 3: said I was going to sign it or else, And

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Speaker 3: I said, at that point he might as well just

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Speaker 3: go ahead and pull the trigger, because signing it would

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Speaker 3: be the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful. Conviction has always given voice to innocent people in prison.

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Speaker 1: Now we're expanding that voice to you. Call us at

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Speaker 1: eight three three T seven for six sixty six and

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Speaker 1: leave us a message. Tell us how these powerful, often

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Speaker 1: tragic stories make you feel outraged, inspired, motivated. We want

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Speaker 1: to know. We may even include your story in a

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Speaker 1: future episode. Call us A three three two O seven

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Speaker 1: for six six six.

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Speaker 2: The way it works is after the police have gotten

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Speaker 2: the soon to be defendant to the place where he

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Speaker 2: or she is saying what they want them to say.

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Speaker 2: They'll oftentimes rehearse it, and then they bring in the

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Speaker 2: Felony Review States attorney who take a statement from them,

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Speaker 2: and at the end they ask the person to sign,

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Speaker 2: and then that's often the last time the soon to

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Speaker 2: be defendant ever sees the outside of a jail cell.

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Speaker 3: The state's attorney wanted to take my statement. I started

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Speaker 3: to give him a statement basically saying I did it.

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Speaker 3: I told him that I needed to talk to my

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Speaker 3: then girlfriend. He allowed me to make a phone call

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Speaker 3: to her. She made a three way phone call to

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Speaker 3: my then attorney. I told him what was going on.

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Speaker 3: He told me to put the state's attorney on the phone.

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Speaker 3: They had a brief conversation. State's attorney slammed the phone down,

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Speaker 3: went out to the hall, told the officers to process me,

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Speaker 3: not to speak to me, not to touch me, and

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Speaker 3: to get me out of there. A couple days after

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Speaker 3: the beating on my intake, I was so badly beaten

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Speaker 3: that the Cook County officers wouldn't turn a blind eye

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Speaker 3: to it, and they actually documented all of my injuries.

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Speaker 1: The state's attorney. I mean, he had to know that

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Speaker 1: you had been tortured. There was no question, right, Carl,

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Speaker 1: What do you think he was thinking at that point

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Speaker 1: in time.

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Speaker 2: I you know, I have no idea, but I think

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Speaker 2: that the mechanism they use in Chicago in Cook County,

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Speaker 2: I think is very unique, where we bring in an

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Speaker 2: assistant state's attorney a prosecutor to take the actual statement,

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Speaker 2: and I think the entire felony of view system is

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Speaker 2: designed to sort of inoculate against allegations of torture and

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Speaker 2: abuse by the time you get into court. Because there

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Speaker 2: were so many people claiming a lot of them truthfully

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Speaker 2: that their statement had been beaten out of them. You

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Speaker 2: put a lawyer in the room who has a law

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Speaker 2: license on the line, who can then come to court

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Speaker 2: and say, look, I'm just a lawyer. I didn't see

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Speaker 2: anything wrong, and I don't know what was going through

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Speaker 2: this particular states attorney's mind, but it may have been

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Speaker 2: there's no way I can go to court and say

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Speaker 2: that nothing bad happened here, so I need to protect myself.

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Speaker 1: Nevertheless, Cook County sought the indictment in January nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 3: The officer that presented the case for the state at

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Speaker 3: the grand jury outright committed perjury. One of the jurors

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Speaker 3: had asked him why I had done this at the

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Speaker 3: completion of the state's presentation, and he replied that it

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Speaker 3: was my pattern that when I got mad at my girlfriend,

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Speaker 3: I went out and set fires. Another juror then asked,

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Speaker 3: so he had been caught for this before, and he

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Speaker 3: replied yes. The only problem is I had never so

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Speaker 3: much as been questioned for an Argiston fire in my

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Speaker 3: entire life, let alone caught or convicted.

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Speaker 1: So on January twenty seventh, nineteen eighty eight, James, you

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Speaker 1: had dieted on charges of arson and six counts of.

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Speaker 3: Murder, actually eighteen counts of murder. Eighteen counts they charged

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Speaker 3: me three times on each victim, along with seven counts

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Speaker 3: of attempted murder. My entire indictment, I believe was around

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Speaker 3: thirty one counts.

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Speaker 1: But the well documented evidence of torture shed doubt on

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Speaker 1: James's statement to officers and the state's attorney.

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Speaker 3: When my lawyer put on a motion to suppress my

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Speaker 3: statement due to the abuse, and the judge granted it

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Speaker 3: because of the abuse was so blatant the state's attorney

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Speaker 3: stood up and said, your honor, are you also suppressing

250
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Speaker 3: what he told the state's attorney that night. The state's

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Speaker 3: attorney didn't beat him, and I just sat there and

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Speaker 3: I was just stunned into amazement that he swore up

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Speaker 3: onside and down the other I wasn't beaten, And now

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Speaker 3: he was basically conceding I was beaten, but that what

255
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Speaker 3: I told the state's attorneys should be allowed in because

256
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Speaker 3: he didn't beat me.

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Speaker 1: Pretty freaking devious.

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Speaker 3: Well, you have to keep in mind the judge that

259
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Speaker 3: suppressed my confession got removed from my case after suppressing

260
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Speaker 3: my confession because he went against the system.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Within two weeks of that, Judge Loretta Hall Morgan was

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Speaker 3: assigned my case. And it didn't register really at the time,

264
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Speaker 3: but the judge who was going to be sitting at

265
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Speaker 3: this bench trial already knew about my confession because it

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Speaker 3: was part of the record that it was suppressed.

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Speaker 1: And this doomed bench trial finally began in July nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine.

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Speaker 3: The state put on six witnesses, two people that they

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Speaker 3: call life or death witnesses that said that we survived

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Speaker 3: the fire and the family was alive when we went

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Speaker 3: to sleep woke up to smoking fire. They didn't implicate

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Speaker 3: me at all. They put on a medical examiner who

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Speaker 3: said that in his opinion, the cause of death was

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Speaker 3: smoking fire carbon monoxide poisoning, and that the manner of

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Speaker 3: debt was homicide. When asked why he originally said there

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Speaker 3: were accidents, he said that's because that's what he was

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Speaker 3: told by the police, and that four years later the

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Speaker 3: police told him that they wanted to charge somebody and

280
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Speaker 3: he had to change his death certificates to homicide. They

281
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Speaker 3: then brought a gentleman in from the Chicago Fire Department

282
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Speaker 3: who was there that night as an observer who was

283
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Speaker 3: training a class for a future fire investigating team that

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Speaker 3: was going to take over fire investigations in Chicago, called Ofi.

285
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Speaker 3: He testified that due to burn patterns, he was positive

286
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Speaker 3: that this was an arson fire, but yet he told

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Speaker 3: nobody for four years, and the reason that the state

288
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 3: used him as a witness, in my opinion, is because

289
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Speaker 3: he filed no reports, so there was nothing to impeach

290
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,080
Speaker 3: him with. Whereas the original officers who investigated the fire

291
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,200
Speaker 3: that said it was an accident, they would have had

292
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 3: to have went back on their original report, and then

293
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 3: they put on don Graymont, who was my girlfriend at

294
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Speaker 3: the time, who told the truth that I had nothing

295
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 3: to do with it. They then proceeded to impeach her

296
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 3: with a grand jury statement that she made that after

297
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 3: making it, she went to the Office of Maternal Affairs

298
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Speaker 3: and said I was just forced to commit perjury in

299
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Speaker 3: front of the grand jury. And then they brought Dwayne

300
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Speaker 3: glasgow in, who gave the testimony that he gave in

301
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 3: exchange for going home. The next day, my attorney presented

302
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 3: no defense whatsoever. At the end of the state's case,

303
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,920
Speaker 3: he stood up. He asked for a directed verdict of

304
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Speaker 3: not guilty. The judge said motion denied. He said, oh, well,

305
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 3: the defense rests, and he sat down, and the judge

306
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,520
Speaker 3: said she was going to take a ten minute break

307
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Speaker 3: to have closing arguments. She took a ten minute break,

308
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,160
Speaker 3: came out and found me guilty. My lawyer just sat there.

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Speaker 1: No closing arguments.

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Speaker 3: There were no closing arguments.

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Speaker 1: Carl, help is he talking about no closing argument?

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Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense. So many things about James

313
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Speaker 2: trial don't make any sense.

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Speaker 3: Right. Well, what happened was, like I said, she took

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Speaker 3: the break. We came back and I was expecting closing arguments,

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Speaker 3: and she sat down and started reading her findings. And

317
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Speaker 3: I'm looking at my attorney, like what's going on here?

318
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Speaker 3: And he's like, don't worry about It'll be okay. And

319
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 3: she said, as to counts like twenty five through thirty

320
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Speaker 3: one or whatever it was, or twenty four through thirty one,

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Speaker 3: those are the attempt counts, there's going to be a

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Speaker 3: finding of not guilty because there's no evidence to indicate

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Speaker 3: that the defendant intended to harm those individuals. As to

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Speaker 3: the remainding counts in the indictment, there's a finding of guilty.

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Speaker 3: I was, for want of a better word, I was

326
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Speaker 3: just in shock. I mean, I couldn't believe that she

327
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Speaker 3: had found me guilty. I was just dumbfounded at the

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Speaker 3: fact that if a person was guilty of this crime,

329
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Speaker 3: how could they have been not guilty of attempting to

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Speaker 3: kill the people that jumped out the windows and lived,

331
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Speaker 3: but guilty of killing the people that perished. It wasn't

332
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Speaker 3: like this was a crime with a gun or a knife.

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Speaker 3: Fire is indiscriminate. If I had set the fire, I

334
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 3: would have intended harm on everybody. Apartment building, not just

335
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 3: certain people. Her verdict held no sense to me whatsoever.

336
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,800
Speaker 3: And then she so nonchalantly after finding me guilty, she

337
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 3: literally said the words, gentlemen, what's your pleasure? And it

338
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,439
Speaker 3: was at that point that the state's attorney stood up

339
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,960
Speaker 3: and said, your honor, at this time, we'll be asking

340
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Speaker 3: for the death.

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Speaker 1: Penalty, gentleman, what's your pleasure? That's what she said, what's

342
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,159
Speaker 1: your pleasure? As if this is some sort of sick game.

343
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Speaker 1: I don't even have the right words for this. So

344
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,400
Speaker 1: they asked for the death penalty.

345
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Speaker 3: The next step, you have to have a hearing. When

346
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 3: it took me a couple of days to process what

347
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 3: had happened, and somebody else who was incarcerated awaiting trial

348
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 3: at the time, told me that I needed to get

349
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 3: down to the jail's library, the law library, and speak

350
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,360
Speaker 3: to somebody down there because what was happening wasn't right.

351
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Speaker 3: And that's when I found out a lot of things,

352
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 3: you know. I found out that I was actually able

353
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Speaker 3: to demand a jury for the death penalty phase because

354
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 3: I didn't want her to make that decision.

355
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 1: In case the story isn't crazy enough, there's a crazy

356
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,400
Speaker 1: footnote to this whole thing, which is that on October seventh,

357
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,400
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, while you were waiting sentencing, you had

358
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 1: walked out of the Cook County jail after bond records

359
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: were altered to lower your bond from no bond to

360
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand dollars, and your mom posted twenty five

361
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 1: hundred in cash, and then the jail officials discovered that

362
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,280
Speaker 1: a jail employee had been bribed with three thousand dollars

363
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,120
Speaker 1: to alter the record, and then you were arrested days

364
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,120
Speaker 1: later and brought back. What in the world again, I've

365
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 1: never heard anything like this before.

366
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,119
Speaker 3: What you're speaking of hold some truth to it. I

367
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,639
Speaker 3: don't recall as to what my ex wife actually did

368
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 3: for the jail official that altered the record, but nobody

369
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 3: was listening to me. I was going to be put

370
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 3: to death for something I did not do, and so yes,

371
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 3: I bonded out. I was hoping that while out, I

372
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 3: could probably get enough notoriety to the case to where

373
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,719
Speaker 3: people might look into it and see the errors that

374
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 3: were committed. Technically, I was arrested, but I actually called

375
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 3: them and told them where I was. They were making

376
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 3: threats against my family that if I did not come back.

377
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 3: They were going to take it out on them. So

378
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,919
Speaker 3: I called the state's attorney and told him where I was.

379
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 3: It was not my proudest moment in all of this,

380
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 3: but again, when somebody's talking about taking your life, and

381
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 3: after what I had already been through with the beatings

382
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 3: and everything and what I had seen happened to this point,

383
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:36,440
Speaker 3: I didn't know what else to do.

384
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,439
Speaker 1: James was back in Cook County Jail in November nineteen

385
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 1: eighty nine, where he began all kinds of proceedings trying

386
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: to save his own life, including demanding a new attorney

387
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 1: and a new judge.

388
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 3: When it came time for my sentencing, I had requested

389
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: to remove my attorney because I did not feel that

390
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,400
Speaker 3: I was being represented in a manner to save my life.

391
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 3: The judge denied the request, so I went to the

392
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 3: Attorney Disciplinary Commission and said that I'd given my attorney

393
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: a large amount of money to hire investigators and things

394
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 3: like that, and he did nothing. He never came to

395
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 3: see me, he never spoke to me, at which point

396
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 3: my attorney notified the judge that he was under investigation

397
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 3: by the commission and that she had to let him out.

398
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 3: Of the case. She wasn't happy about it. At that point,

399
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 3: I also moved to remove her as a judge because

400
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 3: she was not giving me what I felt was a

401
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 3: fair shake, so to speak. One of the things that

402
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: I had alleged as to why my judge needed to

403
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 3: be removed was because she had made a statement after

404
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 3: the first day of trial. She had said something like,

405
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 3: I start my vacation the day after tomorrow. This case

406
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: is going to be done tomorrow regardless, or something like that.

407
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,959
Speaker 3: And I was just trying to build some type of

408
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 3: a record for appeal of what was actually happening to me.

409
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 3: And she finally, after that motion was denied, she finally

410
00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 3: appointed public defender. And that's when they found the evidence

411
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: that Duayne committed perjury by saying he said he saw

412
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 3: the back door of the building, that he saw me

413
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 3: enter and leave the building. They obtained evidence that photographically

414
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 3: shows it was impossible that he could not have seen

415
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 3: the building. They tracked down people who used to live

416
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 3: in the buildings from years ago that before that had said, now,

417
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 3: there's no way you could see from point A to

418
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: point B. And even faced with all of this, the

419
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 3: judge refused to correct her mistake and emotion for a

420
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 3: new trial.

421
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: And here it was March twenty second, nineteen ninety when

422
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: somehow James had escaped to death penalty.

423
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, the reason she rejected the whole premise of the

424
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: death penalty was she wanted me out of her courtroom.

425
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: Here we were almost eight months from my conviction and

426
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 3: she still had been unable to sentence me because of

427
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 3: court filings and things that I was trying to do

428
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 3: to save my life. And she literally asked me what

429
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 3: was it going to take to get me out of

430
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 3: her courtroom? And I said I did not want to

431
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 3: fight this from death row. She said, well, the only

432
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 3: other sentence I can give you is natural life. The

433
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 3: sad reality of it is, had I known then the

434
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 3: things that I know now, I probably would have accepted

435
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 3: the death penalty due to the fact that I think

436
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: I would have been out sooner.

437
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: Well, you would have been entitled to an attorney for

438
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 1: post conviction, which you're only entitled too if you are

439
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: sentenced to death. The judge rejected the death penals and

440
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: sentence you to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

441
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 3: Six natural life sentences and three fourteen year sentences. I

442
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: went to Joliette. I was there maybe four weeks at most,

443
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: and then I was sent to Minard, where I spent

444
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 3: the next ten years of my life. They called it

445
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: pit for a reason because it was literally built into

446
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: the side of of what was an old rock quarry.

447
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 3: Finally winning a transfer out of that hell hole, I

448
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 3: then did another four years, almost in jollyev before they

449
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 3: closed it down. I was then transferred to State Bill.

450
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 3: I did almost ten years there and was transferred back

451
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: to Minard for my last eleven months, where I met

452
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 3: Carl for the first time.

453
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: Over the course of two long decades, James's direct appeals

454
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: and his first post conviction petition were denied, and then

455
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: when he was about to file a federal habeas the

456
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: Exoneration Project got involved, filing a second post conviction petition

457
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, including expert testimony from a

458
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: doctor Ogel disputing the fire captain's trial testimony that was

459
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: based on an ancient and now debunked Arson investigation method.

460
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: For clarity, listen to our coverage of Arson investigation on

461
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction junk Science. We're going to have it linked

462
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: in the episode description. The Exoneration Project was also able

463
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: to bolster their expert with previously hidden exculpatory evidence.

464
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: We haven't talked about that there is an alternate suspect

465
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: that there's somebody else who was setting fires in that

466
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: neighborhood at that time. Doing some research into media coverage

467
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 2: of fires in the neighborhood at the time, law students

468
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: Ashley Schumacher and Cadence Mertz uncovered a small neighborhood newspaper

469
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: that had run an article with the headline something like,

470
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: Who's starting these fires?

471
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: Are amazing?

472
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: The night before, if I remember correctly, that the fire

473
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: at issue here, there was another fire that had happened,

474
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: which the police. The same police investigated and determined that

475
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 2: the fire was set by a woman who lived in

476
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: that building, Isabel Ramos, because she was mad at her

477
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: landlord about something, so she decided to burn the place down.

478
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 2: And in the course of questioning her about that fire,

479
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: they said, hey, what about that fire down the street?

480
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: Did you start that one? And she said something. I

481
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: don't know what her exact words were, but basically, I

482
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: was really I set a lot of fires? How can

483
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: I remember?

484
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 3: They pulled the court file and her original confession from

485
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: her trial was still sitting there in the court.

486
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: File and none of this is disclosed to the defense

487
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: before James trial, and we filed this petition. There was

488
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: also a habeas petition which was in front of Judge

489
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: Saint Eve here in Chicago, and she was not able

490
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: to advance it because we had the pending state court matter.

491
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: But there was an opinion entered by her agreeing to

492
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: stay the habeas petition because she felt that there was

493
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: potential merit to it. So in the state court we

494
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: proceeded towards an evidentiary hearing to present the new evidence.

495
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: In one of the little side note. After my evidentiary

496
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: hearing was granted on April fifteenth of twenty ten, the

497
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: state said they needed time to obtain an expert of

498
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: their own to review the fire science evidence that Carl

499
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: and Gale and everybody had put together with doctor Ogle.

500
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 3: It wasn't until a few years after I was released

501
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 3: that a document accidentally got turned over to my legal

502
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 3: team that said that the state's attorney had, for a

503
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 3: full year in their possession a report that basically said

504
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 3: what doctor Ogle had said in his report for me,

505
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: and they were steadily going to court telling the judge

506
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: they needed more time because they couldn't find an expert

507
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: to look at the evidence. So for an entire year

508
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: they held me knowing that what was said by doctor

509
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 3: Ogle was true, that this wasn't an arson fire.

510
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 2: And right before we were supposed to have this hearing,

511
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: the state determined that they would no longer oppose postconviction relief.

512
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 3: They chose to act two weeks after don Graymont died,

513
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: she was in hospice. They went to her room. My

514
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 3: ex wife was there that day that they showed up

515
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: and tried to get her to give a deathbed statement

516
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 3: that I was actually guilty of this. Within two weeks

517
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 3: of her passing is when my court date was that.

518
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 3: Carl and Tara went into court that day and the

519
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: state just said, nah, you can let him go now.

520
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 3: But that's how unwilling they are to admit when they

521
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 3: make a mistake.

522
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: They went to her in the hospice. Yes, I don't

523
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: let to say anymore, but I do know that finally,

524
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: Circuit Court Judge Ricky Jones vacated all your convictions and

525
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: the charges were dismissed. And on May thirty first of

526
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, after a quarter century in prison, you left prison.

527
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: I met Carl for the first time on the day

528
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: he came to pick me up, and it was one

529
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: of the most surreal parts of my entire life because

530
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: we walked out and Carl had told me how it

531
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: was raining the whole way down there, and we walked

532
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: out of prison and it stopped. It was the weirdest thing.

533
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: I will never forget that day. James was the first

534
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: person I was with when he walked out of prison

535
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: after being exonerated, and it was really exciting to be

536
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: part of that with James.

537
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:14,239
Speaker 3: Because of him handsome, extremely dedicated people. I have a

538
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 3: new lease on life.

539
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: And as I understand it, not that this dampened your

540
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: mood as the rain was lifting, but you walked out

541
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: with fourteen dollars and seventeen cents right, Well, it's.

542
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: All I had on my prison account at the time,

543
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: and because I was no longer a convicted felon, I

544
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: was not entitled to all the benefits that he convicted

545
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: felon would be given upon their release. Had Carl not

546
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: come pick me up, I had no way to get

547
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: back to Chicago because I wasn't even going to be

548
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: afforded in a bus ticket, the opportunity for housing assistance.

549
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: I mean, it was the exoneration project that put me

550
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: up in a hotel. All the things that he convicted

551
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: felon receives. I was afforded none of it.

552
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they literally kicked you out the door. But the

553
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: good news is that in May twenty and thirteen you

554
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: filed the federal wrongful conviction lawsuit against the City of

555
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: Chicago and the Chicago PD, And even in the case

556
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: as egregious as yours, it took what almost five years

557
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: to get compensated, right, Yeah, it.

558
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 3: Was almost six years. But what was filed first was

559
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: a stifficate of innocence request, because in Illinois you have

560
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 3: to have one of those before you can move forward

561
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: really doing anything, which meant not only did I have

562
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: to prove that I wasn't guilty, but Carl and his

563
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 3: team had to prove that I was actually innocent. So

564
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: they obtained that for me. On August fifth of twenty

565
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: and thirteen.

566
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: After I contested hearing, the very same state that agreed

567
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: that James was innocent enough to come home fought us

568
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: on the certificate of innocence.

569
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: Finally, you know, some daylight in this now almost thirty

570
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: years by the time you were compensated. This long, long,

571
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: dark chapter. So that is a happy ending. How's your

572
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: life now? Understand when you came home, you were living

573
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: nearby your son and daughter in law.

574
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: It took me almost a year to find my first job.

575
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 3: One of the worst moments of employment seeking came the

576
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 3: now defunct Kmart Corporation. They were going to hire me

577
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: to do maintenance in one of their warehouses in Illinois.

578
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 3: When I got in there to fill out my paperwork,

579
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: in the middle of it, the human resources woman asked

580
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 3: me what happened to all this gap in my work history?

581
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: I said, did you read my resume? Because my resume

582
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 3: stated from the onset after being wrongfully convicted for twenty

583
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: five years, I'm now re entering the workforce. She started

584
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 3: reading it. She made some gasps and some oh mis.

585
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: She got up, she left. She came back and she said,

586
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry to have wasted your time, but we

587
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: don't hire convicted murderers. I said, but I was exonerated.

588
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, Yeah, but you were convicted. I'm like, but

589
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: I didn't do it. She's like, but you were still convicted,

590
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: so we can't hire you, and I just I mean,

591
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: I was just stunned at that point. I was like, well,

592
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't know if this was ever going

593
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: to end. To this day, I have no Social Security

594
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: because I will there's no way for me to be

595
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 3: out long enough to work long enough because of my

596
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: age to qualify for Social Security. So when I can

597
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: no longer work, I'm pretty well screwed because even though

598
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: I did receive compensation, the money that I did walk

599
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 3: away with, which was about two million dollars at the

600
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 3: end of it, you know, is long gone. I do

601
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: have my house thankfully that that's paid for in my vehicles,

602
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: but when I get too old to work, I'm really

603
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 3: not sure what's going to happen. If I'm being totally honest,

604
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 3: if somebody wants to hear me speak, somebody wants to

605
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 3: hear about my story, I'll go wherever, whenever to try

606
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: to enlighten people and open their eyes to what has

607
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 3: happened in the system. I am part of the program

608
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 3: for the Police Training Institute that has been initiated in Illinois,

609
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: where there is now a mandatory four hour class in

610
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: Illinois for every police Academy class that goes through where

611
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 3: an attorney and a couple xeneries and the project director

612
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: go to each class and spend about four hours with

613
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: the cadets. The class is on wrongful conviction, avoidance and Awareness,

614
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: where we get to speak to these future police officers

615
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: and hopefully open their minds to what can go wrong.

616
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: Well, we'll have some way to contact you linked in

617
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: the episode description for speaking engagements. And additionally, maybe what

618
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: you were talking about earlier should be the call to

619
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: action this week. We need to be building ramps, not walls,

620
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: for folks like James to re enter society. We need

621
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: legislation to provide xouneries with the same things that are

622
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: available to paroleees. I mean, it's a no brainer, and

623
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we're bringing awareness to that once again.

624
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: And with that we're going to move on to closing arguments.

625
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to thank you both for

626
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: being here today and sharing this insane story. And with that,

627
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to turn my microphone off, kick back in

628
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: my chair, and leave your microphones on for anything else

629
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: you guys want to say, Let's start with you, Carl,

630
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: because we always save our honored guest for last. You're

631
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: an honored guests, Well, don't get me wrong, but our

632
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: featured guest of course is James. So Carl over to

633
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: you and then just hand the mic off to James

634
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: and he'll take us off into the sunset.

635
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: Well, first, just thank you for this show and all

636
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 2: the work that you do to give people like James

637
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: a voice, a voice that was taken from them for

638
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: a very long time, and I think it's important that

639
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: we get to hear their voices now. I think James

640
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: has obviously not had an easy life before or after

641
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: getting out of prison, but he's done an amazing amount

642
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: of work to help himself and help those around him.

643
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: He's advocated on behalf of initiatives to change laws in

644
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: Illinois to avoid wrongful convictions in the first place, and

645
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: not just in Illinois, He's worked on this in many states.

646
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: So I'm glad that this episode will air so people

647
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: can hear about James' story and not just the part

648
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: of the story that's tragic about the fire and what

649
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: happened to that family and what happened to James, but

650
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: about who he is now. So I'm honored to have

651
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: gotten to work with James. I'm honored that he's still

652
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: someone that is in my life, who I see from

653
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: time to time, who I text. He's a great guy,

654
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: and I'm just I'm glad that he has this opportunity

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00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: to tell his story.

656
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 3: Thank you, Carl for that. I mean, you constantly downplay

657
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 3: how important you are and the things that you do.

658
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 3: That's enough but true to begin with. And you know,

659
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 3: a lot of people talk about good people in this world.

660
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: And when you start thinking of people like Carl Leonard

661
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: and Tara Thompson and Gail Horn and John Lovy, the

662
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: reasons that they do what they do, I like to

663
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: call the right reasons because they save people. They save

664
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: people in ways that we as average citizens don't think of.

665
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 3: When we think of people saving people, we think of

666
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 3: firemen and police officers and things like that. And who

667
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: step in in the instant. You do it for the

668
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 3: right reasons, and you do it selflessly, I mean with

669
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: your family and the sacrifices that they make, because at

670
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: the time that you're not spending with them, they're just

671
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: as important and just as special. I have no idea

672
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 3: how many hours of his life he gave to give

673
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: me my life back, but it's a debt that no

674
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 3: matter how many times he tells me, I don't owe

675
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 3: him anything. I'll never be able to repay because I

676
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: wouldn't be here talking to you guys if it was

677
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 3: not for people like him and Tara and Gail, and

678
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: I don't think that anybody realizes just how special these

679
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: people are.

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00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for podcast one week

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00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: early by subscribing to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

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00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: I want to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

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00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler,

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00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music in this production

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00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms

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00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can

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00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: also follow me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful

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00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and

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00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one