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Speaker 1: Before we begin, a reminder to please rate and review

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Speaker 1: our show wherever you listen. It helps new listeners discover

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Speaker 1: us and helps us grow the program. On this episode

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Speaker 1: of Sports Illustrated Weekly, after his unlikely NBA career, Englishman

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Speaker 1: Jonamichi sent a shock way through the sports world by

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Speaker 1: coming out as gay into thousand seven. Net center Jason

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Speaker 1: Collins followed his example six years later, and since then,

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Speaker 1: not a single NBA player has felt it was worth

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Speaker 1: it to come out. Today we continue are Where Are

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Speaker 1: They Now? Series with SI contributor Chris Ballard, who flew

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Speaker 1: to London to catch up with Jon Amichi to learn

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Speaker 1: about his life now and to hear his thoughts on

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Speaker 1: why the predicted blossoming of openly gay NBA players hasn't happened.

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Speaker 1: I'm senior producer Dan Bloom from Sports Illustrated and I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. This is Sports Illustrated Weekly. I'm Chris Ballard.

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Speaker 1: I'm a contributing writer at Sports Illustrated. Today we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about John Amici in a story I wrote for

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Speaker 1: the Where They Now? Series. So I arrived at Sports

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Speaker 1: Illustrated in two thousand, which was in the middle of

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Speaker 1: John's relatively short NBA career, so I better, I remember

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Speaker 1: more than most people. You know, he had like a

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Speaker 1: soft touch, He wasn't necessarily a defensive power. He just

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Speaker 1: seemed like a really likable, thoughtful player at the time.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course I recalled into the seven when

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Speaker 1: he came out, and I remember the reverberations around the league.

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Speaker 1: I remember the comments, especially Tim Hardaway's comments, And that's

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Speaker 1: about where my consciousness of John Amici ended. Was I

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Speaker 1: think the same as probably for most fans, which is

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Speaker 1: part of the setup of the story is that's fifteen

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Speaker 1: years ago now, and I hadn't really thought about him much.

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Speaker 1: But I all so, I hadn't necessarily put together the

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Speaker 1: fact that only one other NBA player had come out

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Speaker 1: since then, in Jason Collins, and it had felt like,

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Speaker 1: at least to do this and seven that this would

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Speaker 1: be the start of something much larger. So when I

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Speaker 1: first approached John about this story, I looked him up

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Speaker 1: a little bit on the web, and I saw that

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Speaker 1: he was a psychologist and he had a consulting company now,

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Speaker 1: and so I sort of assumed that he would be

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Speaker 1: pretty open to talking about this. To the contrary, he

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Speaker 1: was actually a little bit reluctant. I'm gonna pull up

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Speaker 1: the first Twitter exchange I had with John here. So

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Speaker 1: he was very nice and and open, you know, hi, Chris,

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Speaker 1: thanks for connecting, et cetera. And then he added, I'll

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Speaker 1: be up front and say I am skeptical. I've had

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Speaker 1: a couple of inquiries like this from major publications like yours,

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Speaker 1: and they've all ended up being look, he's still gay

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So just letting you know I'm not

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Speaker 1: here for that again in front seas exclamation point. I

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Speaker 1: found that even more interesting is here is this figure

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Speaker 1: who has been seen as a trailblazer. He's got a

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Speaker 1: new book out, um, he's got a consultancy, and he

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Speaker 1: does not want to be defined by this thing that

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Speaker 1: led to part of his legacy. So I flew to London.

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Speaker 1: It was mid to late May. He lives in Covent Garden,

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Speaker 1: which is right down and missed it all. You can

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Speaker 1: walk the theater district. There's amazing food around there. He

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Speaker 1: likes to be in the middle of it, but he

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Speaker 1: likes to be removed. And so John lives on the

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Speaker 1: top floor this flat. It's amazing raparound patio, and he

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Speaker 1: starts to work very early. So in the morning I

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Speaker 1: visit John a bit up since three five am, and

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Speaker 1: he brewed three thermosis, a tea which he drinks from

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Speaker 1: throughout the day, and he just told me to show

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Speaker 1: up at seven thirty. So I showed up at his

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Speaker 1: flat seven three buzzes me up and he's ready to go.

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Speaker 1: He's got his T shirt on which says accountability is sexy.

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Speaker 1: So this is how I described John in this story.

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Speaker 1: Now fifty one, his head is shaved and is finally trimmed.

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Speaker 1: Beard traces his jawline before culminating in a magnificent white goatee, which,

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Speaker 1: when paired with round, dark framed glasses, give the impression

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Speaker 1: of an exceptionally large guru or professor. John feels pigeon

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Speaker 1: ahold a little bit that he had this remarkable origin

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Speaker 1: story and he is now known specifically for something that

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Speaker 1: he really has no control over. He's like, I didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything to be gay. It's who I am, and

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Speaker 1: that's what I've been remembered for. So take us back

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Speaker 1: a step. Who are John Amici's parents. John's mother was

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Speaker 1: named Wendy, and she was a British medic and she

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Speaker 1: had met his father, who was Nigerian, and he went

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Speaker 1: by the Anglicized name John as well, and followed him

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Speaker 1: to Nigeria and provided medical care in the field. As

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Speaker 1: John fought in the three year be Arian Civil War.

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Speaker 1: This did not go the way of his ethnic tribe,

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Speaker 1: the Big Bow. This is a clip from a BBC

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Speaker 1: News Explainer video. And on the sixth of July seven,

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Speaker 1: civil war broke out and it raged on for the

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Speaker 1: next two and a half years. It's estimated that more

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Speaker 1: than a million people died, most of them from hunger.

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Speaker 1: By the end, John's father and mother were fleeing on

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Speaker 1: foot and they were eating grubs and berries to survive.

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Speaker 1: And they had this very dramatic relationship at first. But

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Speaker 1: when they got back and they started in the States,

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Speaker 1: and then Wendy ended up going to Britain. As John

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Speaker 1: puts it, his father became a malign presence in their life,

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Speaker 1: and so Wendy essentially fled with John and his two

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Speaker 1: sisters and moved to England and raised them on her own.

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Speaker 1: So John grew up in Britain and at the time

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Speaker 1: there were very few people look up to as basketball players.

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Speaker 1: He didn't play basketball growing up He's a mixed race

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Speaker 1: kid in a predominantly white area. He's also happens to

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Speaker 1: be quite tall at a young age, and so he

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Speaker 1: sticks out not tall and super athletic. Rather, he, as

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Speaker 1: he describes it, was sort of nerdy and fat. Here's

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Speaker 1: John Amici speaking to the Oxford Union in our identity

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Speaker 1: is not just made up of stuff that fulminates and

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Speaker 1: and kind of emerges over time, but our identity is

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Speaker 1: actually made up of reflections of how the people around

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Speaker 1: us see us. We reflect back what we see of

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Speaker 1: other people in our faces, and so everywhere I went,

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Speaker 1: this monster was reflected back. It's a really strange experience.

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Speaker 1: And so he became a bit of a recluse and

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Speaker 1: pulled into books, and he loves science fiction. He didn't

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Speaker 1: really find his place until midway through the equipment of

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Speaker 1: high school there when someone noticed that here's the six

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Speaker 1: eight guy. Let's get him on the basketball court. He

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Speaker 1: tried it out. He said. His first shot was in

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Speaker 1: an airball or hit the side of the backboard, but

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Speaker 1: he was able to relatively quickly become proficient in basketball.

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Speaker 1: People had always expected him to play rugby or football,

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Speaker 1: and that wasn't his skill. Set, but suddenly he was

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Speaker 1: a place where he was wanted. John sets out, he

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Speaker 1: calls it the plan. He's like, I'm gonna make the NBA.

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Speaker 1: His mom supports him, and he ends up making his

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Speaker 1: way to a prep school in Ohio and then from

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Speaker 1: there Penn State, and at Penn State he sets the

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Speaker 1: school record footballock shots. Fast forward and he is starting

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Speaker 1: as an undrafted free agent for the Cleveland Cavaliers on

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Speaker 1: opening night and spent two years of Penn State. Must

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Speaker 1: tipped for the draft, but then the end wasn't picked.

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Speaker 1: Then just before the start of last season, he got

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Speaker 1: a call from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The dream had come true.

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Speaker 1: John said that it was Tim Duncan and Nikimalai Juan

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Speaker 1: were the only two players who had made such a

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Speaker 1: rapid ascent picking up a ball and then within seven

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Speaker 1: years starting in the n b A And he said,

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Speaker 1: obviously I have a shadow of those players. But here's

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Speaker 1: this really unlikely set of circumstances, and his work ethic

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Speaker 1: and powering through gets into the NBA and he ends

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Speaker 1: up staying there and and making a living and making

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Speaker 1: an impact. And that's the origin story that he wishes

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Speaker 1: I think has told a little bit more. Doc Rivers

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Speaker 1: is a character who shows up pretty prominently in your story.

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Speaker 1: He was John's coach in Orlando and seemed to be

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Speaker 1: a pretty big key to him having success in the NBA.

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Speaker 1: You can always tell how much a player or coach

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Speaker 1: really likes another player coach by how quickly they respond

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Speaker 1: to your request to speak about them, and so with

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Speaker 1: Doc Rivers, I texted him about John Emici, someone that

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Speaker 1: he coached more than twenty years ago, and Doc got

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Speaker 1: back to me almost immediately. Doc loved that team. It

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Speaker 1: was his first team. You know, he ended up getting

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Speaker 1: the Coach of the Year, so like that's part of it,

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Speaker 1: the fond memories. It was really a group of uh

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Speaker 1: no names and gritty players, you know, bow Outlaw, Darryl Armstrong,

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Speaker 1: team that wasn't expected to do anything, and John Emichi

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Speaker 1: fit right into that. He was positive locker room presidents,

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Speaker 1: and Doc recalled how he knew he could play a little,

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Speaker 1: but he was pleasantly surprised by just how talented Amici was.

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Speaker 1: This was I think would be the peak of his

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Speaker 1: career as a player. I'm fascinated by this other moment

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Speaker 1: that happens in your story It's the year two thousand.

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Speaker 1: John is suddenly getting noticed by the cream of the league,

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Speaker 1: and no less than the Lakers are wooing him. They

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Speaker 1: put a six year, seventeen million dollar deal and this

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Speaker 1: is seventeen million dollars in two thousand in front of

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Speaker 1: John Amici. What did he do? He either would have

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Speaker 1: been playing alongside Shack as a power forward or backing

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Speaker 1: up Shaquille O'Neil he would be playing, or Philip Jackson

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Speaker 1: Jerry West would have been his his GM. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of everything that a player who's grown up idolizing an

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Speaker 1: NBA royalty would dream about doing. And John Amici thinks

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Speaker 1: about it for a while and ends up deciding to

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Speaker 1: come back to Orlando. And he turns down this six year,

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Speaker 1: seventeen million dollar contract and instead signs for one year

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Speaker 1: with the Magic for six hundred thousand dollars. Who does that, right,

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Speaker 1: especially because the Magic were they were up and coming,

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Speaker 1: but they weren't great. And Michi, you know, at the time,

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Speaker 1: this is how he described it. He said, when people

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Speaker 1: ask me what my word is worth, I can say

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Speaker 1: at least seventeen million dollars. You know, obviously twenty years

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Speaker 1: have passed. He looks back on it now and has

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Speaker 1: a different perspective, But essentially what it was was, here

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Speaker 1: was this team that had taken a chance on him.

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Speaker 1: After playing with the Calves and Mit She'd ended up overseas,

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Speaker 1: and it was Doc Rivers and the Magic who gave

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Speaker 1: him his second chance to the NBA. He loved the team,

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Speaker 1: he loved the camaraderie. He never thought basketball was the

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Speaker 1: end all be all for him, and he never thought

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Speaker 1: money was the end all be all for him. So

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Speaker 1: his logic was, I can go chase this other thing,

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Speaker 1: or I can stay with this group where I feel comfortable,

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Speaker 1: that believed in me, that counted on me. And I

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Speaker 1: think implicit in this was that after that year he

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Speaker 1: would be signed to another contract by the Magic. Now

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Speaker 1: that did not happen, and I think some players that

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Speaker 1: end up getting incredibly bitter about that, and I think

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Speaker 1: John Tay a little bit of bitterness about that he

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Speaker 1: was able to sign somewhere else. If you're in his

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Speaker 1: flat in London, there are very few minders of his career.

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Speaker 1: Even during his career, he would talk about how he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to do this for that long, that he

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be defined by basketball, and so by

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Speaker 1: that same token. Playing for the Lakers and making more

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Speaker 1: money was not where it might be For some people

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Speaker 1: that might be the end goal. It certainly wasn't John's

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Speaker 1: who wanted to leave the n b A and become

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Speaker 1: a psychologist. This is the passage that starts the story

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Speaker 1: in relating how he got where he is today. John

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Speaker 1: Amici likes to tell his story. The year was Amici then,

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Speaker 1: his center for the magic, was considered by teammates and

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Speaker 1: much of the league to be something of an odd duck.

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Speaker 1: One of the first British NBA players. He drank tea,

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Speaker 1: is shoed, partying and read psychology textbooks on the team plane,

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Speaker 1: studying towards degree while other has played cards. One evening,

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Speaker 1: as he was sitting at a four top table on

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Speaker 1: the team flight, eating catered p F changs and typing

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Speaker 1: away on a primitive laptop, a teammate sat down with him.

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Speaker 1: Amici closed his computer. Surprised, hey, he said. The teammate

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Speaker 1: looked at Amici then declared, my girlfriend doesn't like my

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Speaker 1: wife very much. That was it, no preamble, So Amici

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Speaker 1: did his best to help. I shudder to think what

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Speaker 1: I told him, says Amici, because I know I was

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Speaker 1: shipped as a therapist back then, knowing the right thing

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Speaker 1: to say and the thing to shut up about, how

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Speaker 1: much let the pauses breathe. It's something you pick up

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Speaker 1: over time. You don't really get it at first because

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Speaker 1: you think therapy is advice. It's not that it's asking

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Speaker 1: people questions, noticing things. Amici kept at it though. By

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Speaker 1: the time he retired from the NBA in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three after five seasons split between the Calves, the

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Speaker 1: Magic and the Jazz, he was on his way to

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Speaker 1: receiving his doctorate and embarking upon his second career, far

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Speaker 1: from the court as he had always planned. On his

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Speaker 1: way out the door, I meant she decided to stir

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Speaker 1: the pot a bit. So. In two seven, John co

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Speaker 1: wrote a book about his career, and it's called Man

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Speaker 1: in the Middle. And this book was if you read it,

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Speaker 1: it's there's a lot in there. It tells the origin

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Speaker 1: story that that I referenced earlier. Um it gets into

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Speaker 1: some of his experience in the league and also tells

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Speaker 1: his story as a gay man, not just an NBA

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Speaker 1: but from the time during his teen years when he

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Speaker 1: starts to understand his identity up through what it was

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Speaker 1: like in college, the very freighted decisions he had to

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Speaker 1: make as he went, Can I go out in the city.

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Speaker 1: If I'm visiting a city on the road, all the

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Speaker 1: players go out? Can I go out? Because what if

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Speaker 1: someone sees me at a gay bar? Right, So it

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Speaker 1: covers all this, and it also obviously talks about his

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Speaker 1: experience in the NBA on provide a lot of depth

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Speaker 1: and detail. And then he went on ESPN Outside the

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Speaker 1: Lines and that was sort of the release of the

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Speaker 1: book and the news break. This week he came out

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Speaker 1: in his new book, Man in the Middle, disclosing that

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Speaker 1: he's gay. The coming out process is not sometimes people

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Speaker 1: think of it as this very defined thing. You wake

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Speaker 1: up one morning, you throw up your window and you

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Speaker 1: yell to the world. It isn't that for most people.

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Speaker 1: It's a very personal and gradual process. So of course,

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Speaker 1: most people didn't read the whole book, especially fellow NBA players,

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Speaker 1: and the immediate reaction was and if you look back,

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Speaker 1: it was it was i'd say, largely positive in the

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Speaker 1: culture of general, and then in the NBA there were certainly,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure players who didn't care, but those weren't the

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Speaker 1: ones who made the news. The ones that made the

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Speaker 1: news for the most part where those who had issues

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Speaker 1: with it. Shablick Randolph said he didn't care as long

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Speaker 1: as you don't put that gayness on me. But it

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Speaker 1: was Tim A. Hardaway who ended up providing the response

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Speaker 1: that really stuck with people. Tim Hardaway, last question before

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Speaker 1: we let you go, how do you deal with a

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Speaker 1: gay teammate? Oh? Uh, First of all, I wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: him on my team. And second of all, you know,

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Speaker 1: if he was on my teeth, I would, you know,

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Speaker 1: really distanced myself from him, because I don't think that's right.

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Speaker 1: You know that what you're saying there, though, Timmy is

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Speaker 1: flatly homophobic, right, It's just it's it's bigotry. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I hate gay people. Only an idiot would imagine that,

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Speaker 1: not already around gay people, So it seems really odd

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Speaker 1: that he would say it within sports. I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: already played with gay people, which is just ridiculous. This

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Speaker 1: trailed Tim Hardaway for pretty much until now. Just this

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Speaker 1: year was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame, and

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Speaker 1: for many years he felt as though or less he

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Speaker 1: publicly said that it was these cans to the Danile

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Speaker 1: Batard show, which he did try to walk back within

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours, but obviously that had very little effect

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Speaker 1: at the time that had affected his ability to get

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Speaker 1: a job, to get in the Hall of Fame. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think there was a jump that's unfair to NBA

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Speaker 1: players that oh, this is what a lot of NBA

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Speaker 1: players were probably thinking at the time, and we can't

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Speaker 1: make that jump, obviously, But the thing was, you know harder.

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Speaker 1: It was just the one one who said it out loud,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that ended also being stamped in

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Speaker 1: our consciousness. How does John Amici go from playing in

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Speaker 1: the NBA to being a fully trained and practicing psychologist.

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Speaker 1: So John knew he wanted to go into psychology even

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Speaker 1: before his time in the n b A, and so

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Speaker 1: he was studying while he was a player. He began

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Speaker 1: his coursework, and the series of steps after that included

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Speaker 1: a distance learning program which he could do while he's

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Speaker 1: in the league. So after retiring and Michi puts in

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Speaker 1: thousands of hours of required training, he studied family therapy

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Speaker 1: and then he specialized in organizational psychology. He ends up

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Speaker 1: earning all these accreditations from the British Psychological Society. He

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Speaker 1: picks up a host of other titles, including becoming a

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Speaker 1: Fellow for the Royal Society for Public Health, and he

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Speaker 1: founded a psychology based consulting firm which is now known

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Speaker 1: as APS Intelligence. He works with businesses across Europe. They

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Speaker 1: focus on teamwork, leadership, efficiency, diversity inclusion. He has two offices,

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Speaker 1: he has a book, he has a podcast. He works

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Speaker 1: with a number of relatively high level companies in Europe,

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Speaker 1: so I'd say overall it has been successful. He has

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Speaker 1: this presence to him that definitely comes across virtually, but

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Speaker 1: even more so in person because he's so eloquent, he's

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Speaker 1: so thoughtful, partly because of his personality and partly because

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Speaker 1: of his training. When he's listening to you, it's a

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Speaker 1: very active listening. I guess the way to put it

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Speaker 1: is the world sort of blots out and the conversation

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Speaker 1: you're having with John becomes the only thing, which is

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Speaker 1: obviously with the best interviewers and and talk show host

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Speaker 1: I'm sure to do as well. But John very adapted this,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of what I did was watching

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Speaker 1: him do this and then having our conversations and trying

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Speaker 1: to hit on his life, his approach, and then obviously

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Speaker 1: finally know his thoughts on why things haven't changed. Here

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Speaker 1: was another excerpt from this story. This is about the

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Speaker 1: context of gay athletes in sports. Eventually, by the turn

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Speaker 1: of the century, the NBA remained one of the only

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Speaker 1: two holdouts among major American men's team sports, along with NHL.

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Speaker 1: Then it meets she broke that barrier. Six years later,

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Speaker 1: into thirteen, Jason Collins became the second NBA player and

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Speaker 1: the first act of one come out. And with that

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Speaker 1: the floodgates open. As the culture shifted and as the

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Speaker 1: courts legalized same sex marriage and as out athletes became commonplace,

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Speaker 1: the most progressive major men's sports league in the US

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Speaker 1: led the way. Just kidding, that's what you might have expected. Instead.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and twenty two, Columns and Amichi remain

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Speaker 1: the only two NBA players to have come out publicly,

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Speaker 1: which leads to the obvious question, why so, Chris, you

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Speaker 1: flew to London, you met with John Ahmigi, you wrote

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Speaker 1: this entire article. What do you think is the answer?

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Speaker 1: I think it's different if you talk about, for example,

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Speaker 1: women's soccer. If you talk about other sports where it's

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Speaker 1: become it's not even news now at this point, which

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Speaker 1: is what most sports are probably aiming to get to

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Speaker 1: at some point, and the NBA seems to come down

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Speaker 1: to a few factors. Talking to Doc Rivers, his thought was,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's still largely about money and precedence because

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Speaker 1: there haven't been players coming out, and it's been now

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Speaker 1: nine years since Jason Collins comes out. There's a huge

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Speaker 1: unknown there. If I come out, how does it affect

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Speaker 1: my next contract? Even if someone had come out a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago. It's really going to be one

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Speaker 1: of those things chicken and eggs. So when the next

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Speaker 1: player comes out, if he potentially signs a big deal

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Speaker 1: somewhere and no one cares or maybe even helps his

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Speaker 1: marketability boom, that that helps. From that financial perspective. If

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Speaker 1: the average NBA player only has a three to four

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Speaker 1: year career and that's the majority of their earning potential

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Speaker 1: for their life, and this disclosure cuts a year off

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Speaker 1: your deal or you fear it might, the risk reward

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily there. So that's for the financial argument

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Speaker 1: for this. You know, John Amici says that's not the

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Speaker 1: right question. Why are we asking why more players haven't

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Speaker 1: come out? Why is it on the players to do this?

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to read one of his quotes here.

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Speaker 1: So what John told me when I started asking this

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Speaker 1: question was, if it's just about being able to point

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Speaker 1: to a gay person, I'm not sure that's a good

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Speaker 1: sign of progress. Really. John went on. He said, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of gay players in the league. They

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Speaker 1: are well known to their teammates, at least some of them,

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Speaker 1: and their friends and some of their partners are also

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Speaker 1: well known to family and friends in the family and

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Speaker 1: friends room. If what we mean is that no journalist

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Speaker 1: has permission to talk about their sexuality, then that is true.

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Speaker 1: But it's a weird workplace, right And he made an

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Speaker 1: analogy of the time to me about Microsoft. If you

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Speaker 1: work for Microsoft, you don't have to stand up on

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Speaker 1: your desk and announced the whole room, hey, I'm gay.

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Speaker 1: And in that case, maybe you'd have forty people in

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Speaker 1: the room. In this case, you're asking an NBA player

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Speaker 1: expecting at some point an audience of millions of people

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Speaker 1: to stand up. He's like, that's weird. He's like, people

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Speaker 1: aren't in the closet just because you don't know they're gay.

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Speaker 1: People haven't earned the right to know. Fat bloke front

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Speaker 1: seat twelve C. You haven't earned the right to know.

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Speaker 1: You just yelled obscenities at me for missing a free throw.

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Speaker 1: You don't know me at all. This is John's point

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Speaker 1: was this is something you're earned. If people trust you,

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Speaker 1: they tell you things about themselves. This isn't a job requirement.

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Speaker 1: And so the culture around the game in John's view,

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Speaker 1: and I think he's I think he's right on this.

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Speaker 1: It's probably what needs to change. If there are still

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Speaker 1: team owners, we still have a culture around the game,

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Speaker 1: We have fans around the game that is not going

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Speaker 1: to make it a conduce environment, and someone won't feel

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Speaker 1: necessarily safe or there won't be a positive experience for

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Speaker 1: them to come out. Then why do we expect them

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Speaker 1: to take this chance when they don't need to. I

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Speaker 1: think that was that's an overarching point, is the culture

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Speaker 1: around this needs to change rather than the players. This

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Speaker 1: isn't about a player not decided to come out. It's

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Speaker 1: about the American culture and the sports culture. And then

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Speaker 1: one point John got really fired up talking about this,

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Speaker 1: and this is this is the thing that really resonated

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Speaker 1: for me. He said, you want people to come out,

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Speaker 1: change theles around them, and not just the teammates because

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Speaker 1: they mostly don't care, but equipment managers and weight coaches

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Speaker 1: and administrators and team owners who we all know her

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Speaker 1: progressive group, and obviously he's been sarcastic there, and the

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Speaker 1: overarching organizations, one of which has just finished constructively dismissing

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Speaker 1: an athlete for taking a knee. Yeah, that's a safe

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Speaker 1: place to come out. It's the weakest of organizations that

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Speaker 1: say the lack about athletes is about stupid jocks who

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Speaker 1: would beat you up in the locker room. This was

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Speaker 1: his main point. You're we're focusing on the wrong people

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Speaker 1: who want gay people to come out. Make it so

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Speaker 1: it's not so. Make it so that someone can still

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Speaker 1: look at you and see what you've achieved. Then maybe

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Speaker 1: people will deserve that disclosure. You've been traveling an amazing planes,

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Speaker 1: all right, So each team has their own plane. And

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Speaker 1: I was on the plane one day. I was studying

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Speaker 1: for my doctor and then one of the players got

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Speaker 1: called Monty Williams. He came up and I'm typing away

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Speaker 1: and he looks at me and he kind of just

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Speaker 1: leans against the chasis. So meach, you don't talk much

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Speaker 1: about women. And I said to him, indeed, and he

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Speaker 1: looked at me and said, uh, cool, cool, good talk,

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Speaker 1: and then walked away. And that was it. That was it.

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Speaker 1: So there are plenty of people out in that same way,

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00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: amongst their teams and and even amongst some parts of

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00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: their teams, and not others. They're just not out of

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00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: the universe. He's a fascinating guy. But my challenge was

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00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: to try to weave these two contextual threads together. John's life,

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Speaker 1: which has been largely outside of basketball, and what he

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Speaker 1: represents is far as a gay athlete and someone in

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Speaker 1: the sports world. And so this is how I ended

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Speaker 1: up deciding to end the story. Where is John Amici now?

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Speaker 1: The better question might be who is John Amici now?

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00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: Because the answer is certainly not retired NBA player. Rather,

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Speaker 1: he's a psychologist, executive, mentor, instigator, and Star Wars fan.

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00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: He's either a truth teller or a liberal wind bag,

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Speaker 1: depending on who's doing the labeling. He's an introvert and

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00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: a ponderer and a man who misses his mother every day.

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Speaker 1: And in sports men's sports anyway, he's a symbol of

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00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: a world that felt like he was changing, but maybe

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Speaker 1: he hasn't changed that much at all. Chris Ballard, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for your work and thanks for being

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Speaker 1: with us today. Great Thank you, Dan. Chris Ballard is

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00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: a longtime writer for Sports Illustrated and a current contributor.

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Speaker 1: You can find a link to his article about John

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Speaker 1: Amici in our show notes. Thanks for listening, and as

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00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: a reminder, please rate and review our show. It helps

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Speaker 1: people find us. Sports Illustrated Weekly is a production of

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for

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00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows. And for more

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00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,239
Speaker 1: of Sports Illustrated, its best stories and podcasts, visit us

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00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: at SI dot com. This episode of Sports Ilustrated Weekly

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Speaker 1: was produced by Jessica Yarmoski, Jordan Rizzieri, and Isaac Lee,

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00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: who was also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is

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Speaker 1: Dan Bloom. That's me. Our executive producers are Scott Brody

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Speaker 1: and John Gonzalez. Our theme song is by no Lyn

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Speaker 1: Schneider and stay tuned for the rest of the week

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Speaker 1: where we'll have more shows from our Where are they

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Speaker 1: now series