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Speaker 1: What's up. This is a special dispatch I'll call it

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Speaker 1: to the how To citizen community. To the feed from

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Speaker 1: baritunde Hi. I really hope you enjoyed season four. I'm

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Speaker 1: actually still reverberating from so many of the conversations we had,

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Speaker 1: from the opening with Adrian Marie Brown to the close

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Speaker 1: with doctor Sam Raider and everyone in between. I'm popping

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Speaker 1: in because we have a bonus track on this album.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot of podcasting as a guest

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Speaker 1: on other people's shows, and we've decided to throw one

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Speaker 1: of those episodes right here into our feed. It's from

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Speaker 1: a group called the Progress Network. I love I love

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Speaker 1: that already who's against progress? And their show is called

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Speaker 1: What Could Go Right? And they invited me on and

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Speaker 1: I wasn't fully sure what we would be talking about,

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Speaker 1: but we ended up going deep on artificial intelligence, the

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Speaker 1: chat GPT, the DHALI, the mid journey, the large language models,

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Speaker 1: the job displacement, the creative possibilities, the plagiarism. There's so

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Speaker 1: much potential with this, and we did a whole season

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Speaker 1: on Tech season three and explored some of these themes.

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Speaker 1: In this moment, with things moving even faster, I am

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Speaker 1: confident that what we're calling artificial intelligence and all the

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Speaker 1: machine learning technologies underneath, will have a massive effect on

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Speaker 1: every part of our lives. I think we still have

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Speaker 1: a chance to shape it rather than just be shaped

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Speaker 1: by it. And I'm eager to see more citizen uses

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Speaker 1: of these tools, including citizen ownership and citizen oriented initiatives.

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Speaker 1: All the principles we talk about showing up and participating,

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Speaker 1: investing in relationships, understanding power, and valuing the collective. They

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Speaker 1: don't have to disappear because of a more machine dominated world,

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Speaker 1: but they will if we're not consciously engaged in this stuff.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of alarm and concern on the

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Speaker 1: one hand that you'll hear from me in this conversation,

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Speaker 1: as well as a lot of possibility, potential, and hope

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Speaker 1: for what we can still create. If you know anything

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Speaker 1: by now, you know that I am about us co

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Speaker 1: creating a better story of ourselves together, and that might

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Speaker 1: need to include increasingly together with machines. But I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that at the expense of our relationship

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Speaker 1: with ourselves, with each other and with nature. So tune

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Speaker 1: into this. Let us know what you think we're how

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Speaker 1: to Citizen on Instagram. I'm Baritundale on Instagram, TikTok and

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Speaker 1: all the social sharecropping sites where I till these digital fields.

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Speaker 1: And of course we just have email, old school owned

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Speaker 1: and operated comments at howtositizen dot com. Check out our

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Speaker 1: website well, constantly shifting things around there, and I'm wishing

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Speaker 1: you a great summer as we go through a lot,

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Speaker 1: get it to build a lot. Last little plug September thirteenth,

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Speaker 1: I have discovered is the premier date of America Outdoors.

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Speaker 1: That's my second season with the PBS series. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the themes you're used to hearing us banter about

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Speaker 1: here and try to activate WHI I'm also being able

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Speaker 1: to witness and amplify that happening in relationship with nature

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Speaker 1: all across the country. So that's a PBS show September thirteenth.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, please enjoy what could go right in

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Speaker 1: my conversation about artificial intelligence peace if we could eliminate

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Speaker 1: so much work and so much drudgery and so much labor. Again,

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Speaker 1: always promised, never delivered, but maybe this time is different

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Speaker 1: than what will we do with all that time? Would

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Speaker 1: I let my report write itself, so I could take

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Speaker 1: a walk with my wife and just connect more. Would

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Speaker 1: I let those emails send themselves so I could call

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Speaker 1: my sister instead, That's a great trade off. Let the

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Speaker 1: email write itself, let it respond to the email that

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Speaker 1: someone else's robots, and let the robots do all the

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Speaker 1: emailing and just give me a weekly report on what

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Speaker 1: I said this week, so that I could meditate more.

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Speaker 1: That's glorious. That's really great. Most of the employers of

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Speaker 1: the world, they won't see it that way, and they'd

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, great, you don't have to focus on

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Speaker 1: writing emails. You can do xyzning instead.

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Speaker 2: What Could Go Right?

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Speaker 3: I'm Zachary Carabell, the founder of the Progress Network, and

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Speaker 3: I'm joined as always on this podcast by Emma Varva Lucas,

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Speaker 3: the executive director of the Progress Network. And What Could

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Speaker 3: Go Right, in addition to being the title of our

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Speaker 3: weekly newsletter, is also our podcast, which is a weekly

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Speaker 3: attempt to change the tone of our collective dialogue from

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Speaker 3: one of dyspeptic, dystopian despair to a more positive case

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Speaker 3: for a brighter future. So, Emma, who are we going

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Speaker 3: to talk to today? I'm very excited about this conversation.

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Speaker 3: I know who we're going to talk to today, but

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Speaker 3: why don't we share that with everyone else?

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Speaker 4: All right, let me tell everyone else we're going to

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Speaker 4: talk to you today, which is Baratunde Thurston. He is

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Speaker 4: many things, among them the author of the books How

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Speaker 4: to Be Black and I'm Judging You, the Do Better Manual.

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Speaker 4: He worked at The Onion and on The Daily Show

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Speaker 4: with Trevor Noah. Right now, he's the host of a

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Speaker 4: podcast called how to Citizen, as well as a TV

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Speaker 4: show called America Outdoors with PBS, and he's a founding

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Speaker 4: editor of Puck. He's been writing a lot recently about

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Speaker 4: AI technology and its role in the future of humanity,

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Speaker 4: so we're going to delve into that with him today.

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Speaker 3: So with that, let's talk to Baratunde. Baratunde is such

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Speaker 3: a pleasure of this conversation with you. You are one

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Speaker 3: of these kind of eclectic renaissance E maybe emphasis on

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Speaker 3: the E type humans who have ranged far and wide

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Speaker 3: in your interests. You're eclectic, you're informative, you're curious, you're

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Speaker 3: open minded and passionate all of the above. You've been

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Speaker 3: writing a lot lately about AI and generative AI, chat GBT,

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Speaker 3: and Open AI, and there has been a fair share

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Speaker 3: of attendant technophobic hysteria, as there always is when something

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Speaker 3: seemingly dramatic a new comes along in.

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Speaker 1: The technological universe.

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Speaker 3: People freaked out about the printing press, about the telegraph,

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Speaker 3: about the telephone, about the television, about the Internet, about

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Speaker 3: the cell phone, about the smartphone.

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Speaker 1: So the degree to what your horse, don't forget the horse.

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Speaker 3: The horse absolutely freaked out about the horse too, This

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Speaker 3: four legged harbor duers of doom. So tell us in

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Speaker 3: a nutshell, are we right to be dramatically worried? I

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Speaker 3: think you had a line in one of your columns

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Speaker 3: where you're simultaneously fascinated and terrified. I think I'm getting

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Speaker 3: that right. If not, it's a good way to characterize it.

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Speaker 1: Regardless it is, that's a fair characterization. It's good to

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Speaker 1: be here with what could go right. I just love

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Speaker 1: the ethos and title of that. Most of the default

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Speaker 1: settings on the news are what has gone wrong. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for contributing to a different psyche and mindset

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Speaker 1: around the state of the world and our remaining possibilities

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Speaker 1: with AI. Your categorization is accurate. I am I'm fascinated

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Speaker 1: and I'm terrified that The nutshell is that I see

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Speaker 1: a lot of solid reasons to be concerned about what

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Speaker 1: the rapid deployment of these tools means for everything from

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Speaker 1: copyright and ownership of our creativity to the very nature

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Speaker 1: of the human experience as one that is just so

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Speaker 1: increasingly mediated by a technology creating distance between us and

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Speaker 1: the physical world, between us and our fellow humans, and

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Speaker 1: even between us and ourselves. And I think just our

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Speaker 1: experience with social media the past decade or so and

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Speaker 1: fragmentization and all balkanization, we just in so many ways

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Speaker 1: we're not ready also excited, so excited about creative possibilities,

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Speaker 1: about having another tool and sort of colleague and copilot

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Speaker 1: in the quest for justice and the ability to try

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Speaker 1: to live together better and to find answers to some

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Speaker 1: really deep questions, whether they are scientific or existential. So

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Speaker 1: it's all possible, but the concern is very real. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to try to sugarcoat it.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to talk a little bit about the RNC

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Speaker 4: AI AD. Did you see that that was all AI

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Speaker 4: image generated?

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Speaker 1: I did not see it.

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Speaker 4: Basically, it was like imagine Joe Biden becomes president again,

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Speaker 4: and then they ran through all these nightmare scenarios of

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Speaker 4: what that might be like.

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Speaker 2: So the first.

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Speaker 4: One was war over Taiwan. The second one was fifty

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Speaker 4: regional banks collapse, and they flashed an image from like

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Speaker 4: the boarded up windows of BLM. Obviously it was ai created,

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Speaker 4: but that was the image that you got in your head.

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Speaker 4: And then they did some really heavy drug users in

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Speaker 4: San Francisco and a couple of other dystopian things, and

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Speaker 4: the response to it was like really intense. Right, there's

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Speaker 4: this response of like the rn C is now you know,

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Speaker 4: has this new tool and their power. People are going

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Speaker 4: to be confused and they're gonna blah blah blah. And

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Speaker 4: I was interested to ask you about it because my

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Speaker 4: reaction was like that was a bad ad.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't it actually was.

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Speaker 4: It didn't feel of course I'm not the intended audience,

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Speaker 4: but it just it honestly did not pull me in

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Speaker 4: at all.

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Speaker 1: This is speculative, happy to do it, just gotta name it.

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Speaker 1: Most political ads are garbage. I think we can all

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Speaker 1: agree on that. Like, regardless of where you sit on

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Speaker 1: any political spectrum ideal, they're just bad. They're the worst

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Speaker 1: Hollywood movie trailers in a world where, and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like they just unleashed the in a world guy on

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Speaker 1: on their projection of the worst possible future with Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden as president. That's typical. It's uninspiring, it's fear based,

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Speaker 1: it's it's unimaginative, which I think makes it appropriate to

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Speaker 1: be built on generative AI systems because it can only

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Speaker 1: mine what we already know in so many many ways.

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Speaker 1: And so whatever they trained that data on, whatever they

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Speaker 1: trained that ad on, is like just the history of

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Speaker 1: shitty political ads. Cool. I think what would be more interesting.

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Speaker 1: Years ago, the artist Mally Krabapple teamed up with a

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Speaker 1: few political voices. Climate people. Alexandrio Casio Cortes did the

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Speaker 1: voice over for this animated like the inverse version what

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Speaker 1: you just described.

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Speaker 5: Ah, the bullet train from New York to DC. It

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Speaker 5: always brings me back to when I first started making

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Speaker 5: this commute in twenty nineteen. I was a freshman in

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Speaker 5: the most diverse Congress in history up to that point.

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Speaker 5: It was a critical time. I'll never forget the children

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Speaker 5: in our community. They were so inspired to see this

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Speaker 5: new class of politicians who reflected them navigating the halls

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Speaker 5: of power. It's often said you can't be what you

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Speaker 5: can't see, and for the first time they saw themselves.

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Speaker 5: I think there was something similar with the Green New Deal.

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Speaker 1: We knew that, and it was imagine the future where

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Speaker 1: a Green New Deal was like fully adopted and implemented

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Speaker 1: and executed on and it was inspiring, It was beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It was a bit like all that would be magical,

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Speaker 1: but it appealed to a different piece of our human

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Speaker 1: mind and our human spirit, and a human artist helped

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Speaker 1: bring it to life. And I'm not saying machine art

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Speaker 1: can't do that, but it just feels really predictable, also ironic.

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Speaker 5: That's what they chose to run the game, a society

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Speaker 5: that was not only modern and wealthy, but dignified and

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Speaker 5: humane too. By committing to universal rights like healthcare and

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Speaker 5: meaningful work for all, we stopped being so scared of

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Speaker 5: the future, we stopped being scared of each other, and

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Speaker 5: we found our shared purpose. Ileana heard the call too,

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Speaker 5: and in twenty twenty eight she ran for office in

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Speaker 5: the first cycle of publicly funded election campaigns, and now

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Speaker 5: she occupies the seat that I once held. I couldn't

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Speaker 5: be more proud of her a true child of the

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Speaker 5: Green New Deal. When I think back to my first

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Speaker 5: term in Congress writing that old school Amtrak in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 5: all of this was still ahead of us, and the

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Speaker 5: first big step was just closing our eyes and imagining it.

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Speaker 6: We can be whatever we have the courage to see.

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Speaker 3: So look, the fears around this are this is the

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Speaker 3: version one point zero of the Singularity, or people love

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Speaker 3: to use the terminator. Skynet is sentient right that this

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Speaker 3: is the first shot across the bow, and that's what

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Speaker 3: we're heading. We're heading to AI that is indistinguishable to

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Speaker 3: can pass the Turing tests. These all the tropes of

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Speaker 3: artificial intelligence land. I think I've used at least three

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Speaker 3: of my quotient of cliches in the past one minute.

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Speaker 3: But yes, maybe I am indeed myself. AI generated a

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Speaker 3: I generated cliches for five hundred alex.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of what AI is doing right now.

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Speaker 3: I'm as susceptible occasionally, in moments of procrastination and boredom

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Speaker 3: to click on the listicles, you know, the ten worst

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Speaker 3: movie scenes or the ten scenes that ruin their careers. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I don't know that life would be radically different if

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Speaker 3: I read a really good AI generated listicle like that,

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Speaker 3: or a really good AI generated tour guide. A friend

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Speaker 3: of mine I was just in Pakistan a few weeks

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Speaker 3: ago and sent me this like Lahore tour and I.

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Speaker 1: Was like, oh, this is cool. Where'd you get this?

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Speaker 1: He said, it was chat gbto. We just said things

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Speaker 1: to do in Lahore. I was like, that was pretty good.

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Speaker 1: It's a lots to can look impressive.

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Speaker 4: He is.

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether that's a problem.

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Speaker 3: But you mentioned the horse before, right, the fact that

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Speaker 3: humans were human labor was substituted for horse labor, or

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Speaker 3: that horses were then made less relevant by cars. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there was disruption, and there was a certain amount of

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Speaker 3: creative destruction if you believe in the Stumpitarian view of reality.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know that.

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Speaker 3: Was like ultimately bad destruction of what we use here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when cars came along, they mostly displaced horses. And

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Speaker 1: automation in general is never a one to one substitute.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't just like every human job becomes a robot

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Speaker 1: job or a software job and it's bad. It's generally, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: people who had certain types of occupations can't do that.

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Speaker 1: Part of the occupation anymore, and the new technological capability

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Speaker 1: creates new jobs. Right. The telephone operators transitioned right in

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Speaker 1: many ways to a different type of role. They weren't

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Speaker 1: physically connecting inbound call to destination, but they became information

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Speaker 1: services operators. They became receptionist secretaries. There were still a

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Speaker 1: need for a human role in some cases. What often

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Speaker 1: I think gets missed, though, is that the new capability

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Speaker 1: just opens the pathway for many more people to engage

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Speaker 1: in the thing. Right, So, writing used to be a

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Speaker 1: high tech endeavor that only monks did. You had to

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Speaker 1: be trained. There were like fifty people in the world

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Speaker 1: who could write. They lived in a castle. It was

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Speaker 1: very Game of Thrones, right, they were masters. And when

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Speaker 1: you know, writing became much more available to the public.

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Speaker 1: You still have monks, you still had people in an academy.

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Speaker 1: You still had masters and castles. But also anybody could

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Speaker 1: write any bullshit, Right, I could write bullshit. I could

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Speaker 1: write a postcard. And so what's gonna like? The people

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Speaker 1: who can generate tour guides of Lahore is greater than

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Speaker 1: professional travel agents, which has been the case for a while.

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Speaker 1: It's greater than the wiki. How crap writers. It's greater

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Speaker 1: than the people who've already blogged a billion times about

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Speaker 1: and online. It's like your friend who's never written a

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Speaker 1: travel guide a day in their life can generate one

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Speaker 1: for you. And that's gonna create a flood of new

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Speaker 1: content and new information. Not entirely bad. I think. The

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Speaker 1: worry side of it for me is we will create.

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Speaker 1: We've already created so much stuff. I can't watch the

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Speaker 1: TV that's being made. It's in We will never finish Netflix.

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Speaker 1: It's an endless scroll, and so what's the point. And

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Speaker 1: if we need machines to help us overproduce, we're also

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Speaker 1: gonna need machines to help us over consume. There's just

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Speaker 1: too much. So we're gonna watch the shows on one

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Speaker 1: point five speed, and we're gonna have a generative bot

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Speaker 1: summarize and give us the abstract, the cliffs notes, the

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Speaker 1: kind of vary, the cheat codes on all these experiences.

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Speaker 1: So we'll rely on machines to create, will rely on

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Speaker 1: machines to consume an experience. And our role in that

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Speaker 1: loop is like a phone operator. We're just connecting an

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Speaker 1: input to an output, but not experiencing the call ourselves.

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Speaker 1: That's an existential worry I have is and the other

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Speaker 1: is economically. So much of this is just driven by capitalism.

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Speaker 1: It's like, increase throughput, increased output, create more efficiency. Why

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Speaker 1: the great lie of all these tools is that they

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Speaker 1: give us our time back. They don't. The BlackBerry took

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Speaker 1: more time than it gave. Email took more time than

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Speaker 1: it gave Slack we're supposed to solve. Email takes more

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Speaker 1: time than it gives. We just are on more. We

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Speaker 1: have to be more responsive, and so we have this

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Speaker 1: colonization of our time and of ourselves in service of

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Speaker 1: ultimately a venture backed, profit driven escapade in which we

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Speaker 1: don't really have an interest ourselves, some benefit, very little interest.

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Speaker 1: So the concentration of wealth to create more wealth, that's

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Speaker 1: not very inspiring to me. That's a very concerning and

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Speaker 1: it's like, all right, so we just become better constant

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Speaker 1: workers connecting machine output to machine input. Eh, it's got

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Speaker 1: to be a better use for all this stuff, venture backed,

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Speaker 1: profit driven escapade. I like that, not try I agree,

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Speaker 1: but I like it as a Phrase's yeah, that's cool,

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Speaker 1: And I don't use the word escapade very much, So

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Speaker 1: I should get a point for.

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Speaker 4: That, I guess what that premise takes to be as

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Speaker 4: necessarily true is that we are all responsible for consuming

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Speaker 4: all the content that's already produced. But I think that

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Speaker 4: we're not right. Like, the idea is that there's the diversity,

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Speaker 4: the plurality of content out there, and you can pick

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Speaker 4: and choose what's useful to you. Like, I certainly don't

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Speaker 4: feel like there's a pressure, tubbing incumbent upon me to

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Speaker 4: like watch all the TV shows that have been produced,

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Speaker 4: or all the podcasts, or read all the articles. I

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Speaker 4: just the fact that the things that I want to

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Speaker 4: learn about are there or see are there seems to

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Speaker 4: be a benefit to me. Does that ring true to

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Speaker 4: you at all?

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Speaker 1: Yes? And no, I think you know, the pressure that

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Speaker 1: I feel comes from the desire to feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: a part of a common experience. There's something shared in

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Speaker 1: these human experiences. And in a simpler time, we had

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Speaker 1: more common reference points, just in a different time. Not

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Speaker 1: necessarily simpler in some ways I think it was, but

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Speaker 1: certainly we could agree it's different. And so that common

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Speaker 1: reference point might have been a religious one, it might

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Speaker 1: have been an informational one, it might have been a

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Speaker 1: labor common experience for generations parents and children had very

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Speaker 1: similar lives, and whatever advice parents could pass on was

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Speaker 1: based on a set of experiences. Their child was likely

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Speaker 1: to have. Work too hard in the field, Your teeth

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Speaker 1: are gonna fall out at thirty, You're gonna die at

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Speaker 1: forty three. Good luck, kid. That was a lot of

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Speaker 1: the human experience. And now within a generation there were

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Speaker 1: radically different experiences less and less common between an older

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Speaker 1: sibling and a younger sibling. And so what we have

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Speaker 1: to share or between each other and pass on it

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Speaker 1: just gets more difficult. I think the flood of TV

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Speaker 1: shows is a simple example of this larger trend. And

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Speaker 1: so what show am I watching? What show were you watching?

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Speaker 1: What do we talk about at the water cooler? Which

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Speaker 1: no one has a water cooler anymore, but the idea

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Speaker 1: of that ancient, like sitting around the fire, common human storytelling.

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Speaker 1: I think there's something deep within us that still demands

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Speaker 1: and needs that to not feel too untethered. And so

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Speaker 1: we tether to each other, We tether to the fire,

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Speaker 1: we tether to a tail. And if everybody can generate

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Speaker 1: their own tail constantly, then can how do we also

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Speaker 1: create a shared story? See it's a TV show, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's a new religion. Maybe it's a set of principles

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Speaker 1: and values. But I think everybody creating a custom lens

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Speaker 1: on reality will have some negative consequences because we won't

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Speaker 1: see the same things.

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Speaker 3: So I want to circle back and maybe one thing

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Speaker 3: I'd want to throw out there, maybe we'll come back

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Speaker 3: to this is I'm not entirely show that any of

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Speaker 3: us entirely I know what capitalism is or means.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we use the word or any of these isms.

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Speaker 1: It's the very.

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Speaker 3: Loose terms for multi multi level, multifaceted systems. But this

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Speaker 3: idea of a shared reality. We've gone over the course

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Speaker 3: of a couple hundred years from a billion people on

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Speaker 3: the planet barely in eighteen hundred to eight billion plus

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Speaker 3: people right now. And it's not just there were a

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Speaker 3: billion people tuned in some odd years ago. Those were

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Speaker 3: they weren't really connected to each other, so it was

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Speaker 3: more like several hundred group of tens of millions at most.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, little tribes mostly. I don't think it's possible for

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Speaker 1: eight billion people to have the same story, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's desirable to throw everyone into a massive

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Speaker 1: group chat Hello Twitter, right, These things will naturally fragment

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Speaker 1: and subdivide themselves, and that's okay. A family has subcultures,

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Speaker 1: much less a species the thing that I want. I'm

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Speaker 1: not an advocate of pull the plug on the machines.

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Speaker 1: I think that's really simple. When I say capitalism, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about a desire to produce outcomes that are optimized

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Speaker 1: for a particular measurement of success, which is profit, at

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Speaker 1: the expense of many other measures that matter to us,

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Speaker 1: quality of life, happiness, sustainability of the home planet, a

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Speaker 1: future that we don't fear in terms of habitability, like

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Speaker 1: very basic human needs, stuff that capitalism has helped to

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Speaker 1: serve but now threatens at the extreme to completely undermine.

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Speaker 1: There is no market for any good or service with

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Speaker 1: no Earth, at least not a growing one. It's literally

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Speaker 1: a shrinking market. So these tools and the race to

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Speaker 1: project them into the world are driven by a particular

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Speaker 1: perspective on maximizing public market capital defined as returns on investment,

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Speaker 1: not defined as quality of air or depth of loving relationship.

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Speaker 1: There are other things we could try to optimize for

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Speaker 1: we haven't really tried. And when we talk about shared

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Speaker 1: narrative and the risks, yeah, there's gonna be like a

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Speaker 1: bright bart bot. There's going to be an right bot.

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Speaker 1: There's going to be like a BLM buera of land

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Speaker 1: management I'm referring to, as well as a Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matter bot, and that's going to create some chaos. There's

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Speaker 1: subreddits too for all these different groups, and it's created

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Speaker 1: some chaos. It's not necessarily the end of the world,

404
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Speaker 1: but the combination of the speed with which this stuff

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Speaker 1: gets deployed, the narrow I think drive behind it. These

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Speaker 1: are not so far community defined efforts. If we said,

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Speaker 1: all right, listen, these large language models are generated basically

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Speaker 1: off of the wisdom and data, at least maybe wisdom.

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Speaker 1: It's certainly the data generated by the world. We've scraped Wikipedia,

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Speaker 1: which is contributions from ever we sucked in a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of photographs taken by millions of people. But the interest,

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Speaker 1: the literal financial interest in it is just a couple

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Speaker 1: of shareholders. It's like one of the largest set companies

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Speaker 1: in the world. That seems like a huge disconnect, and

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Speaker 1: I would feel less alarmed if we had collectively some

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Speaker 1: deeper stake in these systems, as well as some more

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Speaker 1: kind of democratic, small d method of determining how we

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Speaker 1: are going to manage what goes in and how we

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Speaker 1: decide to create what comes out. Instead, we're just jammed

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Speaker 1: with it, right, Hey it's GPT two. Nope, GPT three

421
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Speaker 1: point five, No, GPT four. Hey, Now we can make

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Speaker 1: videos like wow, this is so fast, and I just

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Speaker 1: feel subject to the whims of an almost literal handful

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Speaker 1: of people. And I don't like that. For eight billion

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Speaker 1: people in a place where we're supposed to be democratizing

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Speaker 1: tools and all having a voice, it seems like a

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Speaker 1: lot of this stuff is being imposed, and so I

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Speaker 1: just I don't have a deep answer to it. But

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Speaker 1: I have a deep concern, and I don't think that

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Speaker 1: is how I want the future defined for so many

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Speaker 1: of us. So I'm trying to weave in a couple

432
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: of the things we've been talking about here and see

433
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: if I can get more specific about what what might

434
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: bother me the last. It is not last, but I

435
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: think it's my other deep on the concern side, we

436
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: can get to the exciting I'm excited about stuff too,

437
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: but on the concern side is one of the things

438
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: I wrote about in PUCK. I had this clear memory

439
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: of GPS and I used to manually make trip plans

440
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: with my mom. She ordered things from trip la and

441
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: they helped you route a path on paper. They chip

442
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: it to your house, these little vertical maps called tripticks.

443
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: Then I ran the GPS off a laptop in the

444
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: car with CD ROMs. Then we got map Quest, then

445
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: Google Maps and voiceover GPS, and that all made navigation simpler.

446
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: It made it smoother, it made it faster, made it

447
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 1: more optimal. And I never know where I am, Like,

448
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: I don't know anything anymore. I will defer to the

449
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: which claims to be all seeing and all knowing versus

450
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: my eyes. And if my eyes perceive that looks like

451
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: a traffic jam, but the screen says it isn't, I'll

452
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: just wait in traffic. If my eyes say there's no

453
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: bridge ahead of me, but the screen says you can drive,

454
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 1: I'll drive off the bridge. I haven't done this, but

455
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: other people have. And I think there is a deeply

456
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: troubling metaphor for our deference to these systems which are

457
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: sold and marketed as intelligent, as human like, and as

458
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: better than us. So then we don't have agency, We

459
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: just we follow. We all become followers of a system

460
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: that we didn't choose to create, and we deny our

461
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: knowledge of ourselves. I have this smart ring. I wake

462
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: up in the morning and my wife says, how'd you sleep?

463
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: That's anything. I slept pretty good. Then I checked the

464
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: app and the ring says I didn't sleep pretty good,

465
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: and I'm like, correction, I apparently I had a terrible

466
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: night sleep. I need to try harder to sleep tonight

467
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: because the ring told me I don't feel the way

468
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: I feel, and so I find that deeply troubling. Man

469
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: and spending all this time with intelligence of an artificial

470
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: nature creates gaps with a different form of nature that

471
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: I think we need to try to maintain. Otherwise, we

472
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: just follow these generated instructions for what to do with

473
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: every moment of our lives. How to tourist city, what

474
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: to cook for dinner, where to turn in our vehicles,

475
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: who to mate with. It's very optimal, it's very optimized,

476
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: it's very efficient. It's also dead. If life is just

477
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: following instructions from a computer, we get to live longer,

478
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: we have less life. I don't know. I don't know.

479
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: That's kind of weird.

480
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 4: The one thing I would say to that is that

481
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 4: I think that we're a little bit more in control

482
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 4: about our choices and how much tech is in our

483
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 4: lives than what you just describe. For instance, like if

484
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 4: you realize that like you are sleeping just fine, and

485
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 4: the smart ring is telling you otherwise, so you probably

486
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 4: get to a point where like, screw you, smart you

487
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 4: were not useful to me anymore.

488
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: With the GPS.

489
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 4: Example, one time I was in Bulgaria with my sister.

490
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: We were driving.

491
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 4: Google Maps told us to go straight.

492
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: We looked at.

493
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 4: This freshly painted sign from the Bulgarian government that told

494
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 4: us to turn left, and we were like, no, like

495
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 4: the Internet gods know all, we will go straight. And

496
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 4: of course the straight road led us like into the

497
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 4: woods in the moullains gravel road we you know, popped

498
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 4: or tire we had to get toe trucked. Left was

499
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 4: the way that we should have gone. So that seems

500
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 4: to prove your point.

501
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: But the other side of us the government, Yes, trust.

502
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 4: The freshly painted side from the Bulgarian But the other

503
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: side of that is, now that I've had that experience,

504
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 4: I'm like, Emma, if your gut reaction is telling you something,

505
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 4: go with that instead of the Internet God. So there

506
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 4: is an adjustment process here and a little bit more

507
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 4: of have a choice aspect to it.

508
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: And here's the good. I think, here's the opportunity and

509
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: the invitation in this moment for us, as we have

510
00:28:53,760 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: a much more artificial existence, we will value natural existence

511
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: even more. Like I get to spend a lot of

512
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: time in the outdoors, in the woods, on rivers and mountains.

513
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: I make this beautiful show on public television in the

514
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: US called America Outdoors, and I just I love that.

515
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: I was fly fishing with foster kids two weeks ago,

516
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: standing in a stream, just popping shrout out. They trained

517
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: me well, and is the opposite feeling of being efficient

518
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: and making sure that every physical step I take in

519
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: the world is maximally optimized to minimize discomfort and paint.

520
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: It was pretty uncomfortable in that stream at times it

521
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: was cold, but it was so real and so grounded.

522
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: And my experience with the ring, your experience with the

523
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: Bulgarian freshly painted sign. Being way smarter than the smart

524
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: tech of Google, which is one of the smartest entities

525
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: ever created, Like collective wisdom inside the Google machine is

526
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: extraordinarily intelligent, more so than any single human being but

527
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: that sign was right and Google is wrong. So yeah,

528
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. You've got an extra caution. And there's

529
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: gonna be some tickle that we all feel where we

530
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: get to choose, Okay, what instruction, what feeling, what intuition

531
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: do I want to listen to? And we got to

532
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: practice that though I think for me most of the time,

533
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to follow the GPS. Otherwise why do I

534
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: have it? Right? If I question everything the machine tells

535
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: me to do, then that machine's not doing its job.

536
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: So on net like, overall, we're going to tend toward following.

537
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: That's the whole premise of creating these systems. But if

538
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: we can decide maybe not now, maybe not today, maybe

539
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: I need to break put some more agency back into this.

540
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: Maybe we need to redesign this thing. Maybe it needs

541
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: to ask us questions. I don't know, there's just gotta

542
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: be something more, And I think it's going to force

543
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: many of us to ask why, right, what if we

544
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: could eliminate so much work and so much drudgery and

545
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: so much labor again, always promised, never delivered, But maybe

546
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: that's kind of different. Then what would we do with

547
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: all that time? Would I let my report write itself,

548
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: so I could take a walk with my wife and

549
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: just connect more. Would I let those emails send themselves

550
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: so I could call my sister instead, That's a great

551
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: trade off. Let the email write itself, Let it respond

552
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: to the email that someone else's robots send. Let the

553
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: robots do all the emailing, and just give me a

554
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: weekly report on what I said this week, so that

555
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: I could meditate more and do some psychedelics and to

556
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: try to achieve some higher plane of existence. That's glorious,

557
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: that's really great. Most of the employers of the world,

558
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: they won't see it that way, and they'd be like, oh, great,

559
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: you don't have to focus on writing emails. You can

560
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: do xyzning instead. You can proofread the robots emails.

561
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: Okay, So on the flip side of all this, and

562
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: I do love the It's totally right about the GPS.

563
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: You know, one of the effects of our technologies in

564
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: this case is no one's ever lost and no one

565
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: ever knows where they are. And that is true for

566
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: a plethora of our daily realities. Again, part of the

567
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: ethos of doing what we go right is we do

568
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 3: have a very human tendency to look at problems and

569
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 3: both evolutionarily and culturally. That's not always a bad tendency, right.

570
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 3: We are constantly and I've alert for that which will,

571
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: if not now, soon be a threat and be a danger.

572
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: The flip side is we always lose sight of the past, right,

573
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 3: because the past isn't particularly real. In the future isn't either,

574
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: But the future we can invest with hopes and dreams.

575
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: In the past we can being back with unrequited desires.

576
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: And like a lot of human history, labor to just

577
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: produce food. If you looked at the amount of energy

578
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: and human hours to produce a loaf of bread two

579
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: hundred years ago versus now, right of human labor to

580
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: do these things has in fact freed up all this

581
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: other labor to do email right, meaning you are the

582
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: right that one type of work pushes out another type

583
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: of work.

584
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: And to watch Netflix. Right, we are more entertained than ever,

585
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: you know.

586
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: Our leisure time has gone up and our work time

587
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 3: has become more elastic. But I guess I would push

588
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: back and offer the following. I'm not saying I'm right

589
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 3: about this, I'm just something I think about, which is,

590
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 3: if you really did in your sort of small d

591
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: collective global democracy. Way tried to get buy in from

592
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 3: a planetary population about what these technologies are doing, or

593
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: what the arc of modernity and capitalism has done, I think.

594
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: Net you would probably find more buy in than not to.

595
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 6: Like.

596
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 3: These things have allowed for far less physical labor, longer lives,

597
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: and the ease of procuring material necessities and material desires.

598
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: So while a lot of the.

599
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: Benefits have unfairly or inequitably, I don't know whether it's

600
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: unfair enough'll have inequitably flowed to the few and not

601
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 3: to the many.

602
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I agree.

603
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 3: That the system itself would be radically different if you

604
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: had if it weren't quite so foisted upon you.

605
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 1: But was in fact, like voted upon. When I talk

606
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: about small D democracy, I'm not talking about updown votes.

607
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: And I think, just as you rightly pointed out, like

608
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: what do we mean when we say capitalism, we're not

609
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: always clear about that. What do we mean when we

610
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: say democracy? A lot of our experience of democracy is outsourcing, right,

611
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: It's delegation to a chosen few to over simply make

612
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: decisions on our behalf, and there's all kinds of corruptions

613
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: of their motives and perversions of interest with money and gerrymandering,

614
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: and a lot of things that have diluted the ability

615
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: of our representative democracies to actually reflect the will of

616
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: the people. Again not a partisan statement. I'm a very

617
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: part of them person, but that is academically and mathematically demonstrable.

618
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: So these citizen assemblies and deliberative democracy is like one

619
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: form and practice where random assortments of people are selected,

620
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: almost like juries, to develop policies, to weigh in on budgets,

621
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: to advise or determine political decision making on behalf of

622
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 1: a community, could be a city, could be a nation.

623
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: I don't think an eight billion person citizen assembly makes

624
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: any sense, but smaller collectives can roll up to something

625
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: that better reflects what people actually want. We have a

626
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: failure of democracy around abortion access and reproductive rights in

627
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: the US, around gun sensical regulation of firearms safety and access.

628
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: In this country, vast overwhelming numbers of people want a

629
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: certain thing. Our democracy, in quotes, has not delivered it.

630
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: It's failed in those particular points, and there are a

631
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: lot of other examples. If we could have a better process,

632
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: we could have a better outcome that better reflects the nuance,

633
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: the ranges, the exceptions that most people actually feel. And

634
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,959
Speaker 1: so when it comes to something like AI, we can,

635
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: through a process bring in the hopes, the dreams, the concerns,

636
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: the fears of many more people than a couple of

637
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: machine language researchers and a couple of VC firms who

638
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: think that what we really need to optimize is illustrations maybe,

639
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: or is like asking workers what they would want to

640
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: use these tools for rather than just imposing it. You

641
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: might find and that there's basic, low tech ways This

642
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: happens already through surveys, but that's when I refer to

643
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: more small de democracy in the process. Part of what

644
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: I'm hinting at is a different way of surveying and polling,

645
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: a different way of gathering, soliciting input, and demonstrating alignment

646
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: of desires or non desires in a way that our

647
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: current political system and sometimes our business system are unable

648
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: or have been increasingly unable to deliver on on the

649
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: what could go right? What could go right with all

650
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: this AI stuff is we are buried. We're overwhelmed with

651
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: confusion around our financial services, around our health insurance situations.

652
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: My friend Ron J. Williams has this view of like

653
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: radical comprehensibility, and that is aided significantly. I unleashed chat

654
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: GPT on my one hundred and eighty page health insurance

655
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: coverage policy document. It was never meant for me to

656
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: understand that document. These businesses, so many of them, they

657
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: make money by making sure I don't understand how to

658
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: get what they're actually offering me, and they hope I

659
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: won't figure it out. Like it's a really shitty way

660
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: to operate, but it's also can be really profitable. If

661
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: we make people jump through thirty hoops and we know

662
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: fifty percent of people only jump through two overage, we're

663
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: good and you could pick a business. There's a lot

664
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: of them that operate this way. These tools give me

665
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: an army of robocallers, of legal scholars, of sentenced diagrammers,

666
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: and researchers to throw against that wall without investing all

667
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: the time it would take to become an expert myself,

668
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: or just wait on hold that long to argue with

669
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: an agent. I love that. I love that adversarial relationship.

670
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: I love even in the playing field, And then I

671
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: can imagine that for coordinating action, for climate, for making

672
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: policing much more sane, and actually a public safety interest,

673
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: not just an enforcement of property rights interest or a

674
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: refuge of racism and slave catching. In the US as

675
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: we've practiced, it that we could unleash these tools in

676
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: the arms of civilian oversight boards, in the arms of judiciaries,

677
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: in the arms of city councilors and activists to say,

678
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: all right, let's analyze this in a much faster way.

679
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: When the Justice Department has to come into a city

680
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: and they get the right to review, I forget the

681
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: specific language what they do, but they basically take years

682
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: combing through and observing and then they write a low

683
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: report and consent decrease. We don't have to do that

684
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: one at a time. We could just say all police agencies,

685
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: all meat inspection plans. There's where there's imbalances now and

686
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: the folks who kind of abuse the advantage win because

687
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: they just have more time. Nope, we can balance that out.

688
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: So I think that's a great possibility, and I want

689
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: to see that. I want to see it for climate

690
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: stuff in particular, because we have to coordinate such complicated actions.

691
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: Last example, I'm actually sitting on this right and I'm

692
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: holding up this item is called future card. It's a

693
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: visa debit card gives you five to six percent cash

694
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: back for your lower carbon purchases. You buy an electronic

695
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: item through back market, this secondhand marketplace instead of new

696
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: you get more points for that. I'm a small investor

697
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 1: in this disclosure. They built something on GPT chat dot green.

698
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: It's green GPT and then lets you figure out all

699
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: the subsidies for solar, for wind, for graywater systems that

700
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: you're eligible for, and a lot more. It's basically a

701
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 1: green economy expert at your fingertips, and you can throw

702
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff at it from your life, and

703
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: it answers all these questions that would take me weeks

704
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: to figure out the Riverside County rules on this and

705
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: the LA County rules on that in the city of

706
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. And that's not designed to make it hard.

707
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: It just is hard. So to simplify to make more accessible.

708
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: It's incredible the effect on literacy. If you're not literate,

709
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: these tools can help you behave as if you were

710
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: and get access to the information and the power that

711
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: comes through literacy without having to go through all the

712
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: hoops that you might not have time to do. That

713
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: A friend of mine is not so great at English.

714
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: He's using it to improve his email communications, so he

715
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: shows up more professionally, people understand him better, his dealings

716
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: are smoother. Scale that scale that, So, yeah, it will

717
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: be truly unlocking potential, freeing us up, enabling folks who've

718
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: been disabled by their circumstance, by oppression, by whatever. I'm

719
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: here for.

720
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: That that's a really good note to wrap up a

721
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: conversation that's in the middle of a conversation. So hopefully

722
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: we can keep having the conversation. And clearly, like a

723
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 3: lot of things that we talk about, and none of

724
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: these are terminal conversations, right, These are not like election analyzes.

725
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: These are like long term who are we?

726
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 7: What are we?

727
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: How are we going to shape the physical and spiritual

728
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,359
Speaker 3: and technological environment that we are all swimming in? And

729
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: I think one thing that I do like about your

730
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 3: writing and you're speaking is you are curious. And for me,

731
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: curiosity is the openness to the new, and the openness

732
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 3: to learn about the new and to not allow yourself

733
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: to constantly just reimpose an a priori framework on that

734
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: which is unfamiliar and new. Otherwise all you're doing is

735
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 3: just stamping reality with a very rigid template.

736
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: These calls to pause AI, for example, for six months,

737
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: an arbitrary time unit, and an unclear meaning around pause.

738
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: My instinct is instead to engagement. Right, So the way

739
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: we resolve this, I don't think is just unplug the

740
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 1: machine and then figure it all out and then plug

741
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: the machine back in. And I think what Sam Altman,

742
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: an open AI has said, which I find kind of

743
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: shocked but not entirely to agree with, is we had

744
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: to release this in beta because we couldn't figure this

745
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: all out in the lab. And so there is some

746
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: level of collaboration, like the concerns I'm raising, the excitement

747
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: you're feeling, and everything in between. That is a somewhat

748
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: democratic process in the sense that we're participating. I want

749
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: the terms of that participation made much more clear and

750
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: explicity and blah bla blah blah blah. But I wouldn't

751
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: be able to offer these critiques or these hopes if

752
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: I hadn't be able to play with the thing myself,

753
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: and that is a really important part. If I could

754
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: offer one last I think hopeful possibility here. What has

755
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: jumped out the most from me from play I've played

756
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: extensively with GPT four with mid Journey five. Those are

757
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: my primary experiences, and then a little bit of production

758
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: tools around video editing, audio editing for my own workflows.

759
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: But those first two examples, I can ask it something

760
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: and it can give me an okay response. My prompt

761
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: is eh, if I focus on the prompt, really make

762
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: it the most specific, the most nuanced kind of help

763
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: speak it in the language I know it is prime

764
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: to understand better than just my my own natural way

765
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: of speaking. I get much higher quality responses. And I've

766
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: done these experiments with like average prompt versus super prompt,

767
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: and it just puts the focus on how you ask

768
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: and it gives us this superpower, this performance enhancing drug,

769
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: this thing that I think of increasingly as magic, where

770
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: it's oh, we're casting spells and some you can cast

771
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 1: the spell and turn your friend into a frog. Whoop,

772
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: sorry I invoked the wrong spell. Or you can turn

773
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: water into wine, which is a wonderful spell unless you

774
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: really just need hydration, which case that's not the spell

775
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: you want at the moment. But that's a point, like

776
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: we need. This is going to force us slash invite

777
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: us to be much clearer about what we actually want,

778
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: and I think there's a micro little metaphor in that,

779
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: the clarity of the question like what are you going

780
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: to use this power for? Literally how are you going

781
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: to ask? And that will determine what we get out

782
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,919
Speaker 1: of this in your next chat GPT session or over

783
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: the next decade, as we ask ourselves what are we

784
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: going to do with all this power.

785
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 4: I think it's a perfect way to end. I'm glad

786
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 4: you said the bit about the collaboration at the end

787
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 4: as well, because I was going to remark upon that too,

788
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 4: that now when you open chat GPT there's at least

789
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 4: that little warning thing at the bottom that's like chat

790
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 4: GPT may make up facts like.

791
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: Please you know, be away.

792
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, but again it's what you said. This comes out

793
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 4: of a dialogue with the public, and whether or not

794
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 4: we're satisfied with the amount or scale dialogue is another thing,

795
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 4: but there is some So yeah, anyway, I don't want

796
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 4: to take too much away from your final statements because

797
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 4: I think they're really poetic and we'll see what the

798
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 4: magic of AI does for us or does to us.

799
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for coming on, and we'll

800
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: determine it. We won't just see us, We'll create it ourselves.

801
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 3: So I love that love, that love that I guess again,

802
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: there are simply people who articulate their concerns and hopes

803
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: about the world in a way that I think is

804
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: more likely to lead to a constructive future, and there

805
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 3: are those who do so in a way that seems

806
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 3: like it's going to lead to a more conflicted, less

807
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: constructive future. But Bartunda clearly embodies that both hard edged

808
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: but open minded approach to what do we do about

809
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: the world. And we didn't even get into a lot

810
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 3: of the work that he's done over the past years,

811
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 3: which is more about polarization and race and inequality. And

812
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 3: even then, when dealing with these issues that are really fraught,

813
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 3: he looks for and tries to create connection.

814
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 4: And he's funny, right, That's the other big charm and

815
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 4: talent that not everybody has. He was part of the Onion,

816
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 4: he was a producer on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah,

817
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 4: and there's certainly something to be said about the power

818
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 4: of humor.

819
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: So hopefully we will continue to have more conversations with

820
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 3: him and with others like that. But again, to me,

821
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 3: that kind of epitomizes what we're trying to do and

822
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: what we're trying to amplify.

823
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the news, shall we.

824
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 4: First news story that we have for today is busting

825
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 4: the myth of the broke Millennial. And this is an

826
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 4: article in the Atlantic by Gene Twangy. She has a

827
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 4: new book coming out, so it's actually an excerpt from

828
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 4: her new book. But the excerpt was fascinating. Right because

829
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 4: I'm a millennial, I can say personally that that is

830
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 4: a feeling among my friends that we got dealt the

831
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 4: short end of the stick coming of working age during

832
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 4: the financial crisis, that we had the pandemic, and they

833
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 4: were very much So is this feeling of we're poor,

834
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 4: we're broke, we're saddled by a student debt, we can't

835
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 4: buy a house. Houses are really expensive anyway, so screw it.

836
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 4: This life ain't for us. But the article is really

837
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 4: about how it is true that millennials were behind when

838
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 4: they first started working, but now they have caught up.

839
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 4: Gene Twangy calls it a breath taking financial comeback that

840
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 4: started in the late twenty tens, and so she does

841
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 4: all this comparison of data of median household incomes compared

842
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 4: to Gen X and Boomers at the same age. Basically,

843
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 4: it's actually greater than Gen X and Boomers at the

844
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 4: same age. Also adjusted for inflation, millennials have one of

845
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 4: the three of us have a college degree by our

846
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 4: late twenties. It's a first generation ever to have that

847
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,399
Speaker 4: kind of number, which means that our income is up,

848
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 4: and there's fewer millennials in poverty than Gen X and

849
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 4: Boomers at the same age, and home ownership rates are

850
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 4: almost the same as like forty eight percent to around

851
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 4: fifty percent, which all which is to say, this reputation

852
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 4: as sad and broke is no longer true, and it's

853
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 4: important that we rectify that and look.

854
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 3: I think some of the challenges of why that image

855
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 3: remains so profound is the media people or people who

856
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 3: are creating content who tend to be overrepresented in places

857
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: like New York and coastal cities like San Francisco, La.

858
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,959
Speaker 3: Those areas are actually pretty unaffordable relative to even pretty

859
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 3: high incomes, and so there's an understandable tendency to magnify

860
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 3: that as.

861
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 1: A global reality.

862
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: You yourself had the experience of having a pretty decent

863
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 3: job in New York City, but that being inadequate to

864
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 3: a lifestyle in New York City, and that is a

865
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 3: real problem of New York. So it's not like there

866
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: aren't pockets of places where cost of living and income

867
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 3: are just not favorably aligned under any circumstances. But that

868
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 3: doesn't make it actually nationally true.

869
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 4: Right, or even just that it was true that millennials

870
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 4: were having a hard time, but it's no longer true

871
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 4: and regardless of where you live, right, And it's really

872
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 4: important if we if that were true, right, it's it

873
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 4: does call for what we see, which is, should we

874
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 4: really be trusting capitalism with our economic fortune? Should be

875
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 4: looking to other systems of government? It starts those trains

876
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 4: of thought.

877
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: Right.

878
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 4: But if it's not true, if the American dream is

879
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 4: still live for millennials, and we'll continue down through gen

880
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 4: Z and jen Alpha, hopefully that means that we need

881
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 4: to take another look at things and think that actually,

882
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 4: maybe the system is working all right.

883
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 3: Exactly and recognize, Look, if you're an American, it's been

884
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 3: a weird twenty plus years since the collapse of the

885
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: Nasdaq bubble in March of two thousand through nine to

886
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 3: eleven through everything else that has happened subsequently, It's been

887
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: a really challenging cultural time, irrespective of it's also strong

888
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 3: periods of being challenging economically. What we have.

889
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 4: Next is gen Z blowing past other generations. That's the

890
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 4: headline from Yahoo when it comes to four oh and

891
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 4: k's and retirement saving. So this is actually, if I

892
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 4: come from the narrative of the Brook millennial, I think

893
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 4: like gen Z took a look at the world around them,

894
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: They're like, ah, let me save a bunch of my money.

895
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 4: Sixty two percent of eighteen to twenty four year olds

896
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 4: contribute to four oh one k's in twenty twenty one,

897
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 4: compared to only third percent in two thousand and six.

898
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 4: And actually, despite what I just said about gen Z

899
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 4: being scared, that's the personal adopes that I hear from

900
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 4: people that are that age that they like have freaked

901
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 4: out by what happened to millennials. But y'aho actually says

902
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 4: that so many more gen zs are contributing for something

903
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 4: that's really a small, boring change is just automatic enrollment

904
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 4: in four oh and K plans went way up in

905
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 4: two thousand and six, only eleven percent of employers offered

906
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 4: automatic enrollment by the end of twenty twenty one, it's

907
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 4: about fifty percent, so simple fixes.

908
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 3: That is kind of wild, and especially when you consider

909
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 3: that every single statistical model of investing and saving shows

910
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 3: that the earlier you start, the delta between starting in

911
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 3: your early twenties versus early thirties and what you will

912
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 3: then have by the time you're in your sixties is massive.

913
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: So it's not just.

914
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 3: Isn't that good that there's a little more preemptive savings,

915
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 3: it's that the change that will make across a lifetime

916
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 3: if past trends hold, which obviously they could not, really

917
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: sets that cohort up particular while in the future. So

918
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: another piece of news, and that one I did no

919
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 3: idea about.

920
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: That's really cool.

921
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 4: So let's talk a little bit about the right to repair.

922
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 4: It's a topic we I don't think have covered on

923
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:11,959
Speaker 4: the podcast at all.

924
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 7: We live in a free market, but when it comes to

925
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 7: repairing electronics like smartphones.

926
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: You are not free to choose where to go.

927
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 7: If you were the hopeless person with a broken gadget,

928
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 7: you'd immediately go to the Apple store, and that's exactly

929
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 7: what Apple wants you to do. The company and many

930
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 7: others restricts how and where you can.

931
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: Repair your stuff.

932
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 7: Anything that has a chip in it right now is

933
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 7: probably impossible to repair without using the manufacturer.

934
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: That means tractors and cards, it means your smartphone, It

935
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: means increasingly the refrigerators and washing machines that people have

936
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: in their homes. When something breaks and the only solution

937
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: is to take it back to the manufacturer, they can

938
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: charge you whatever they want.

939
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 8: So this is a MacBook Pro Apple the Apple Store

940
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 8: said would cost twelve hundred dollars to fix and wasn't

941
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 8: worth doing. So if I walked in off the street

942
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 8: with this problem, what would you charge to for the

943
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 8: repair you.

944
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 3: Just did, depending on the model, anywhere from seventy five

945
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 3: to one fifty.

946
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 4: June twenty two, twenty twenty two was the United States's

947
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 4: first ever right to repair law. That was in Colorado,

948
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 4: and it was actually for wheelchairs. And there's been a

949
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 4: spate of laws since then, but the one that I

950
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 4: wanted to highlight today from the month of April, again

951
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 4: from Colorado, and it's the right to repair for farmers.

952
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 4: And I wanted to highlight it because it's some one

953
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 4: of those things where you learn you're like, that's crazy,

954
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 4: Like I did not know that farmers did not have

955
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 4: the right to repair their own equipment, So now they will,

956
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 4: at least in Colorado. Generally, retailers like John Deere have

957
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 4: made farmers come to their own stores to get tractors

958
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 4: repaired or another farm machinery. Now they will be legally

959
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 4: obliged to provide farmers with diagnostic tools, software documents, and

960
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 4: repair manuals starting January first, and similar resources must be

961
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 4: made available to independent technicians. So seems like a wind

962
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 4: for farming.

963
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yet another one of there should be some balance

964
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: between personal autonomy and corporate bottom line. Yeah, so that's

965
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 3: some good news of the week, Emma, thank you.

966
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 4: That is. I do also have to give a correction

967
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 4: on news that we covered previously. I think it was

968
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks ago on the fentanyl test strips,

969
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 4: and at the time I said that only two states

970
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 4: allowed the sale of fentanyl test strips. That's because I

971
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 4: completely misread a Cato Institute report that is incorrect. Thirty

972
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 4: six states now allow the sale of fentonal test strips,

973
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 4: which allow people to test to see if the drug

974
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 4: they're about to take has fentyl in it. That's an

975
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 4: addition of sixteen since January twenty twenty two, so the

976
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 4: movement is definitely new. And at the time I said

977
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 4: there's some movement here, not that much. I'm thankful to

978
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 4: be wrong in a good direction.

979
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: It's actually you underplayed your already good starle Yes.

980
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 7: I did.

981
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: I did.

982
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 4: And the remaining states that where it's not legal, there's

983
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 4: pending legislation, so we're actually probably going to be seeing

984
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 4: soon that it's legal across the US.

985
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 6: Cool.

986
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: Good to know.

987
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 3: Thank you all for joining us for this.

988
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: What Could Go Right and our conversation with Barton Day.

989
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 3: This is weekly. Please sign up for the newsletter we

990
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 3: also called what Could Go Right? Go to the Progress

991
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 3: Network dot org and you can sign up and it's free.

992
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 3: So thanks Emma, and we'll talk again next week.

993
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 2: Thanks, I agree.

994
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 4: What Could Go Write is produced by Andrew Steven executive

995
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 4: produced by Jeff Umbro and the plug Vomberate. To find

996
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 4: out more about What Could Go Right the Progress Network

997
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 4: or to join the What Could Go Write? Newsletter, visit

998
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 4: the Progressnetwork dot org.

999
00:55:53,080 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Day