1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:11,789 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:16,620 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:20,620 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: In 2004, Bill McGuire, a New Jersey father of two, 5 00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:30,150 Speaker 1: suddenly disappears. And days later, his dismembered body is found 6 00:00:30,270 --> 00:00:35,450 Speaker 1: in three suitcases along the Virginia coast. His wife, Melanie McGuire, 7 00:00:35,590 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: was eventually convicted of his murder. But more than 20 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,340 Speaker 1: years later, Melanie still insists she's innocent. My guest today 9 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: is Michael Rourke, who plays Bill in Suitcase Killer, The 10 00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:52,100 Speaker 1: Melanie McGuire Story. Michael is also an attorney who has 11 00:00:52,180 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: questioned the evidence against Melanie. Today, we are digging into 12 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,340 Speaker 1: the bizarre clues, the unanswered questions, and the making of 13 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:00,900 Speaker 1: this movie. 14 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:02,580 Speaker 2: Hi, Michael. 15 00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking 16 00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:05,850 Speaker 1: with me today. 17 00:01:05,870 --> 00:01:09,230 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. 18 00:01:09,230 --> 00:01:13,110 Speaker 1: So this case is, I mean, listen, we talk about 19 00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:15,390 Speaker 1: a lot of extreme things on this podcast that are 20 00:01:15,430 --> 00:01:21,140 Speaker 1: difficult to metabolize, to talk about, but this is, it's 21 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:25,940 Speaker 1: just simply wild and unbelievable and grisly, and it still doesn't. 22 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 2: Make any sense to me. 23 00:01:27,530 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: So when When you first learned about this case, what 24 00:01:31,940 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: shocked you the most? And did you initially assume that 25 00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:37,310 Speaker 1: the character you're playing, that his wife was guilty? 26 00:01:37,330 --> 00:01:42,630 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I try to come in 27 00:01:42,650 --> 00:01:45,290 Speaker 3: with no assumptions. And, you know, when I'm playing a character, 28 00:01:45,310 --> 00:01:47,730 Speaker 3: obviously I'm playing the strength of my character, right? So 29 00:01:48,650 --> 00:01:51,430 Speaker 3: looking at the story, it does not serve my jobs 30 00:01:51,450 --> 00:01:55,100 Speaker 3: to come and tell the story. So whether she's guilty, whether, 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: you know, he's guilty, I tried putting that out of 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,070 Speaker 3: my mind. But of course, We had so much banter 33 00:02:00,170 --> 00:02:04,850 Speaker 3: on set because it's such like an intoxicating case. And like, 34 00:02:04,870 --> 00:02:09,110 Speaker 3: this was also what early 2000s. So like any evidence 35 00:02:09,150 --> 00:02:11,329 Speaker 3: was not what it was, you know, maybe there would 36 00:02:11,350 --> 00:02:13,089 Speaker 3: be a little bit more light if we had more 37 00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:17,270 Speaker 3: of that, if this crime would have happened today. But 38 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:19,390 Speaker 3: looking at it, when I looked at all the evidence 39 00:02:19,590 --> 00:02:23,370 Speaker 3: on its surface, I mean, if you want me just 40 00:02:23,389 --> 00:02:24,299 Speaker 3: to jump right into it. 41 00:02:25,389 --> 00:02:25,690 Speaker 2: Sure. 42 00:02:26,150 --> 00:02:30,010 Speaker 3: I didn't find, in my opinion, And again, I'm only 43 00:02:30,030 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 3: going off the facts and evidence that we were provided. Right. 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 3: There was no smoking gun. That was the biggest thing 45 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:37,859 Speaker 3: in this case. There was no smoking gun, but there 46 00:02:37,900 --> 00:02:41,530 Speaker 3: was a lot of circumstantial evidence, which did not make 47 00:02:41,590 --> 00:02:47,750 Speaker 3: any sense. And as far as Bill goes, I know 48 00:02:49,330 --> 00:02:52,620 Speaker 3: there was a party line and the defense saying that 49 00:02:52,660 --> 00:02:55,700 Speaker 3: he was involved with the mob. Mm-hmm. he was a gambler. 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 3: There wasn't really a whole lot of evidence to suggest 51 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: he was anything more than a casual gambler who lived 52 00:03:01,220 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: near Atlantic city and went to blow off steam every 53 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:06,380 Speaker 3: now and then. Right. Wow. And so when I looked 54 00:03:06,430 --> 00:03:08,350 Speaker 3: at bill, when I kind of looked in his backstory, 55 00:03:08,389 --> 00:03:10,950 Speaker 3: this was a guy who he was still very much 56 00:03:11,010 --> 00:03:14,270 Speaker 3: connected to the Navy, still had the Navy cut, still 57 00:03:14,290 --> 00:03:16,910 Speaker 3: hung out with the Navy guys. He missed that edge. 58 00:03:17,889 --> 00:03:19,070 Speaker 2: Oh, interesting. Yeah. 59 00:03:19,090 --> 00:03:20,750 Speaker 3: And I feel that's kind of the way that was 60 00:03:20,810 --> 00:03:22,790 Speaker 3: my impression of him. He kind of missed that edge. 61 00:03:22,870 --> 00:03:26,149 Speaker 3: So like the gambling and, whether or not he was womanized. 62 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:27,790 Speaker 3: And I think there was evidence to that. I can't 63 00:03:27,830 --> 00:03:31,010 Speaker 3: really quite recall. I think part of that was him 64 00:03:31,130 --> 00:03:33,990 Speaker 3: trying to find that edge. He was feeling trapped. I 65 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:36,990 Speaker 3: think in the beginning, he really did love Melanie. He 66 00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:38,930 Speaker 3: really wanted, like he loved his family. He wanted to 67 00:03:38,950 --> 00:03:42,650 Speaker 3: make this work. But as a fact suggests, like he 68 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:47,210 Speaker 3: never wanted this house. He didn't want, like he felt 69 00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:50,020 Speaker 3: trapped by the house. He wanted to go to Virginian Beach. 70 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: Like he wanted a different life that she was not 71 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,910 Speaker 3: really on board for. And I, you know, not as 72 00:03:55,930 --> 00:03:58,730 Speaker 3: an excuse, obviously, but I think there was a lot 73 00:03:58,750 --> 00:04:03,290 Speaker 3: of narrative thrown around about Bill being this guy who 74 00:04:03,590 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: really was probably just a dude who was overly stressed 75 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 3: in a tough spot in his marriage. Was he womanizing? 76 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:13,900 Speaker 3: I don't know. Was he gambling? Yeah, probably. But was 77 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,750 Speaker 3: he gambling away the house? I don't know. Like, that's 78 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:18,620 Speaker 3: a part of the story where we kind of take 79 00:04:18,650 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: some liberties, right? We follow a narrative and that's kind of, 80 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:24,060 Speaker 3: you know, how we tell the story. Yeah. 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,300 Speaker 2: I mean, there are all of these questions. 82 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:27,700 Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I think is 83 00:04:27,900 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 1: interesting about the movie because after I watched it, then 84 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:35,540 Speaker 1: I went and read and watched everything I could about 85 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: this woman and this case. And I was like, Whoa, 86 00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:44,210 Speaker 1: what is it? I, I, it really is mind boggling 87 00:04:44,230 --> 00:04:46,910 Speaker 1: because it doesn't to me make any sense. Was there 88 00:04:47,110 --> 00:04:50,210 Speaker 1: any evidence or any sort of whatever that I know 89 00:04:50,230 --> 00:04:53,390 Speaker 1: you also, we should say you are a licensed attorney 90 00:04:53,510 --> 00:04:56,610 Speaker 1: and you, so you actually come at this with another 91 00:04:56,650 --> 00:04:57,230 Speaker 1: set of eyes. 92 00:04:57,790 --> 00:04:59,530 Speaker 3: Candace loved that. I mean, Candace had a lot of 93 00:04:59,570 --> 00:05:02,370 Speaker 3: fun with that. Cause obviously Candace, you know, I mean, 94 00:05:02,390 --> 00:05:04,770 Speaker 3: not obviously, but she was of the impression that like, 95 00:05:04,790 --> 00:05:08,570 Speaker 3: you know, Melanie had a pretty good story and I was, 96 00:05:09,510 --> 00:05:13,180 Speaker 3: I'm more in the middle. So like, What I think is, 97 00:05:14,380 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: am I 100% sure that she's guilty? I'm not because 98 00:05:17,779 --> 00:05:20,580 Speaker 3: there's too much facts go both ways. But what I've 99 00:05:20,620 --> 00:05:23,180 Speaker 3: said is, at the very least, she knows something she's 100 00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:27,650 Speaker 3: not saying. Now, did she hire somebody? Did she know 101 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:30,390 Speaker 3: something was going to happen? She knows something she's not saying. 102 00:05:30,470 --> 00:05:32,710 Speaker 3: She is not innocent. And where I feel like the 103 00:05:32,750 --> 00:05:35,650 Speaker 3: defense went wrong was they tried to paint her as 104 00:05:35,670 --> 00:05:38,270 Speaker 3: this delicate flower. She's completely innocent. 105 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:38,670 Speaker 2: Right. 106 00:05:39,290 --> 00:05:42,070 Speaker 3: You know, like, oh, this big, bad Bill McGuire was 107 00:05:42,110 --> 00:05:45,779 Speaker 3: a gambling, womanizing, abusive dude. And like, you would have 108 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,100 Speaker 3: been better off just saying, I didn't love that guy anymore, 109 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,500 Speaker 3: but I didn't kill him. Right. I think that would 110 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,370 Speaker 3: have been a better defense because there's too much circumstantial evidence. 111 00:05:55,070 --> 00:05:56,070 Speaker 3: I had to look it up because, you know, it's 112 00:05:56,089 --> 00:05:57,570 Speaker 3: been a few years since we filmed this, but like, 113 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,580 Speaker 3: internet searching for murder. I mean, you can almost look 114 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 3: past that because people get curious. 115 00:06:03,500 --> 00:06:04,620 Speaker 1: I mean, do they though? 116 00:06:05,060 --> 00:06:06,460 Speaker 2: Like, have you ever done that? 117 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: Like walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. 118 00:06:08,420 --> 00:06:10,660 Speaker 1: I get really mad at my husband sometimes. Let me 119 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:12,860 Speaker 1: tell you, we do not have a perfect marriage, but 120 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,660 Speaker 1: I have never in my life Googled something, even in 121 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,860 Speaker 1: the vicinity of how to poison him or murder him. 122 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I went to law school, so I did, 123 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:29,050 Speaker 3: I did. So I, but yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'm 124 00:06:29,070 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 3: trying to remember all that, but like there, she bought 125 00:06:31,060 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 3: a gun. There's an internet searching. The really strange prank 126 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: she did where she drove an hour and a half 127 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:42,020 Speaker 3: to Atlantic city. Right. Like that to me was calculated. 128 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,500 Speaker 3: She was trying to plant him in Atlantic city. That's like, 129 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,650 Speaker 3: that's a, first of all, it's a stupid prank. It's dumb. 130 00:06:49,130 --> 00:06:50,810 Speaker 3: Can you go three and a half hours round trip 131 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:51,970 Speaker 3: to move a car? 15 minutes. 132 00:06:51,990 --> 00:06:53,890 Speaker 2: Like it doesn't make any sense. 133 00:06:53,910 --> 00:06:55,969 Speaker 3: That's the thing. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like, 134 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: At the end of the day, if you just strip 135 00:06:59,140 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: away all of the grisly details of the murder, this 136 00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:07,260 Speaker 3: is a woman who was acting completely irrationally. And it 137 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,810 Speaker 3: didn't make sense unless you're effing up to something. And 138 00:07:11,830 --> 00:07:15,290 Speaker 3: that's just, that's where I land with it. But yeah, 139 00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:19,830 Speaker 3: it's very, it's very fascinating because like, dude ends up 140 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:21,110 Speaker 3: in a suitcase. Right. 141 00:07:21,210 --> 00:07:24,030 Speaker 2: Well, this is this, what you just said would explain it. 142 00:07:25,190 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: That makes sense to me because, you know, no matter 143 00:07:28,140 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: where you fall on all of this, I couldn't get 144 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: past how does this woman, literally how does she do 145 00:07:34,780 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: it on her own and then leave not a trace 146 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:42,710 Speaker 1: of blood or anything in her own home? And how 147 00:07:42,730 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: does this one person, like he was a big guy. 148 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:48,270 Speaker 1: How could she dismember him and put him like, she 149 00:07:48,310 --> 00:07:49,630 Speaker 1: couldn't do it by herself. 150 00:07:50,070 --> 00:07:51,730 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I feel like she may have had 151 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:54,100 Speaker 3: some help or something. I mean, at the end of 152 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,100 Speaker 3: the day, she was what she was a nurse. So 153 00:07:56,140 --> 00:07:59,580 Speaker 3: like she did have some skills with this. I don't 154 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: know to what extent, but she wasn't completely in the 155 00:08:03,260 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: dark with how to do something like this. Now the 156 00:08:06,690 --> 00:08:11,310 Speaker 3: whole putting them in the suitcase, I just don't feel 157 00:08:11,330 --> 00:08:13,070 Speaker 3: like the, look, I don't know much about the mob. 158 00:08:13,210 --> 00:08:15,410 Speaker 3: The mob doesn't do like that. That's just, you know 159 00:08:16,090 --> 00:08:17,370 Speaker 3: what I mean? They just don't. 160 00:08:17,670 --> 00:08:20,450 Speaker 1: It's like she literally was watching the Sopranos and then said, 161 00:08:20,490 --> 00:08:21,410 Speaker 1: this is a great idea. 162 00:08:21,900 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 3: You don't see bodies anymore when the mob's involved. They 163 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:26,940 Speaker 3: don't show up in a suitcase floating in a river. 164 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,260 Speaker 3: I'm like, these are professionals. 165 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: And then her saying that the particular brand of suitcase, 166 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,030 Speaker 1: was it Kenneth Cole or something that she was like, oh, 167 00:08:37,190 --> 00:08:37,990 Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. 168 00:08:38,270 --> 00:08:39,630 Speaker 2: Oh, we do have those. 169 00:08:40,130 --> 00:08:43,190 Speaker 1: But she sort of gave them the name of the 170 00:08:43,230 --> 00:08:48,670 Speaker 1: suitcase and then the plastic bags being the same that 171 00:08:48,710 --> 00:08:50,970 Speaker 1: she had purchased. And sure, okay, a lot of people 172 00:08:51,010 --> 00:08:54,489 Speaker 1: have garbage bags, but then they tracked that it was 173 00:08:55,010 --> 00:08:58,569 Speaker 1: like in close succession of when that bag was made 174 00:08:58,590 --> 00:09:02,309 Speaker 1: to when the bags with the bodies, it's crazy. But 175 00:09:02,370 --> 00:09:05,170 Speaker 1: if somebody out this idea now, I'm like, I think 176 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: you have it because it's also. 177 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: Hard to get past. 178 00:09:10,020 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: If there was nothing in this woman's history that showed 179 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: her to be wildly violent and irrational and, you know, 180 00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:22,340 Speaker 1: which I don't think there was anything that showed that. 181 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:26,300 Speaker 1: So you could make the quicker jump that she just 182 00:09:26,340 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: wanted to get out of that marriage and she wanted 183 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,860 Speaker 1: to do something else and then sort of hire someone 184 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: else to make it go away. Like that's an easier thing, 185 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: I think, emotionally to understand. 186 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I think the 187 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:41,870 Speaker 3: one thing that people have a hard time with is 188 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: understanding how a mother, a nurse, Could just jump to 189 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: something like this awful and grisly. But like what I 190 00:09:51,179 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 3: try to remind people is like, that's a human condition. 191 00:09:53,980 --> 00:09:56,450 Speaker 3: You know what I mean? One thing I've learned and 192 00:09:56,470 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 3: I'm sure you've learned is like we are all. like, 193 00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:04,300 Speaker 3: everyone's like, I would never kill anyone. Really? Let someone 194 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:07,300 Speaker 3: torture you in a basement for 30 days, starve you, 195 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 3: do all kinds of terrible things. You see what you're 196 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,690 Speaker 3: capable of. Yes. You know what I mean? Like there's, yes, 197 00:10:13,010 --> 00:10:17,590 Speaker 3: people can snap. People can change. was she madly in love? 198 00:10:17,750 --> 00:10:19,790 Speaker 3: Did she hate this man? I mean, these are the 199 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:22,580 Speaker 3: things we don't know. And these are the things that like, again, 200 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 3: it'd be in 2004, there was limited evidence. And I 201 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 3: think that's what makes it such a fascinating story is 202 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,220 Speaker 3: there's so much we didn't know, but like, holy cow, 203 00:10:32,260 --> 00:10:34,740 Speaker 3: the amount of circumstantial evidence, usually you get a little 204 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,500 Speaker 3: bit of circumstantial, right? Right. I mean, this was almost 205 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:42,429 Speaker 3: predominantly circumstantial with no smoking gun. But like I said, 206 00:10:42,470 --> 00:10:44,230 Speaker 3: I feel like if this happened today, there would be 207 00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:47,230 Speaker 3: a smoking gun. I think this was limited by the evidence, 208 00:10:47,830 --> 00:10:49,890 Speaker 3: evidentiary materials that were available at the time. 209 00:10:50,270 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: Right. 210 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:51,340 Speaker 3: Right. 211 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: It really does that, that this, what you were just 212 00:10:54,820 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: saying about the human condition. And that's what I think 213 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:02,490 Speaker 1: most people are really, it's what I'm interested in, in 214 00:11:02,570 --> 00:11:05,810 Speaker 1: talking about these sorts of things, because to your point, 215 00:11:06,490 --> 00:11:10,349 Speaker 1: these are human beings that do these things. And sometimes 216 00:11:10,390 --> 00:11:13,689 Speaker 1: there's something extreme. Someone's got, you know, some sort of 217 00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:15,340 Speaker 1: brain damage and does something. Sure. 218 00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: There are some kind. 219 00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:21,940 Speaker 1: Of outliers like that, but really these things are, you know, 220 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: there are serial killers that have this exact, almost identical 221 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,829 Speaker 1: background to another person. And that's this other person doesn't 222 00:11:29,950 --> 00:11:33,250 Speaker 1: commit these sorts of crimes. So it's like, there's, there's 223 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:36,370 Speaker 1: a nuance or a, you know, I don't know what 224 00:11:36,410 --> 00:11:39,230 Speaker 1: it is, but I am to your point, like people 225 00:11:39,290 --> 00:11:43,740 Speaker 1: can get pushed. And then what you can rationalize as okay, 226 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,150 Speaker 1: like your moral barometer can shift, I think. 227 00:11:48,210 --> 00:11:49,950 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's part of it, too, is 228 00:11:50,010 --> 00:11:52,310 Speaker 3: like you start in this one place, but it's almost 229 00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:54,410 Speaker 3: like that frog in the pot as you still turn 230 00:11:54,429 --> 00:11:57,390 Speaker 3: the water up, right? Over time, you start being like, well, 231 00:11:57,410 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 3: he deserves this. He's a bad guy. I'm doing the 232 00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:04,060 Speaker 3: world a favor. Like all these things, you start compromising 233 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,190 Speaker 3: all the things that make you human, right? Yep. But 234 00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:10,330 Speaker 3: that's the part that, I mean, it's hard for me 235 00:12:10,350 --> 00:12:13,890 Speaker 3: to wrap my head around. Because if it's me, I'm like, dude, 236 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,929 Speaker 3: just get a divorce and move on. 237 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,580 Speaker 2: I ask this question often. Do we have to get 238 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: this far? 239 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: At what point did divorce become more difficult than taking 240 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: someone's life? 241 00:12:27,340 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 3: What is the problem? 242 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: I totally agree. 243 00:12:30,179 --> 00:12:32,260 Speaker 3: It's going to suck for a few months. Go file 244 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,460 Speaker 3: some papers. But you're not going to live the rest 245 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,620 Speaker 3: of your life in jail. And your kids aren't going 246 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,459 Speaker 3: to not have any parents. Right. 247 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: That's the other part. 248 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,670 Speaker 1: I think that's really hard for, for moms, for women, 249 00:12:43,890 --> 00:12:47,270 Speaker 1: for anybody, but particularly as a mother to think, how 250 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:52,450 Speaker 1: does this woman do this with these small children and 251 00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:55,770 Speaker 1: not consider what their lives will be? 252 00:12:55,790 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 3: What do you think she does? Like, I mean, it's, 253 00:12:59,130 --> 00:13:01,420 Speaker 3: it's hard for me to even, it's hard for me 254 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,220 Speaker 3: to even kind of grasp what that might be, but 255 00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 3: that's kind of what made it so interesting on set again. 256 00:13:06,380 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: Like we, we would, We would have it out, you know. And, 257 00:13:11,620 --> 00:13:13,340 Speaker 3: you know, Candace is a lot of fun to work with. 258 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 3: The whole cast is a lot of fun. But it was, yeah, 259 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 3: it was a very fascinating case to kind of dig into. 260 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 3: And then, you know, it was great to see that 261 00:13:20,020 --> 00:13:21,860 Speaker 3: it had a really good response on Netflix because it 262 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,380 Speaker 3: did well on Lifetime and then it had this new life. 263 00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:27,130 Speaker 2: It has a new life, right. I love that. 264 00:13:27,150 --> 00:13:28,809 Speaker 3: What do you think it is about true crime that 265 00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:30,250 Speaker 3: just really attracts people? 266 00:13:31,330 --> 00:13:33,530 Speaker 1: I mean, this is our question that we're always asking. 267 00:13:33,570 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: And I do feel like it's partly... This human condition 268 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:44,980 Speaker 1: thing of how do people, how do we do these things? 269 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: How does a person get from A to Z? 270 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:52,230 Speaker 3: To your point, I think deep down, we're all like, 271 00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:53,930 Speaker 3: could I do that? 272 00:13:54,190 --> 00:13:54,550 Speaker 2: Yes. 273 00:13:54,570 --> 00:13:55,430 Speaker 3: Yeah. 274 00:13:56,250 --> 00:13:58,150 Speaker 1: And I think on the other side of it is, 275 00:13:59,250 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 1: thank God that's not happening to me. Right. 276 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there's a sense of like, oh, I thought 277 00:14:04,820 --> 00:14:06,670 Speaker 3: my life was in the shit. It's actually not too bad. 278 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:06,939 Speaker 1: Right. 279 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 2: Like, I'm okay today. You know, I'm making it through today. 280 00:14:11,980 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: And so one of the strangest details is Melanie's account 281 00:14:17,059 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: of their final argument. And she said that it began 282 00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: over a dryer sheet that Bill hated finding in the laundry, 283 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: that he thought it was lazy, that she should use 284 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: the liquid, the kids could. 285 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:28,650 Speaker 2: Choke on it. 286 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:32,850 Speaker 1: And According to Melanie, he shoved it into her mouth, 287 00:14:33,310 --> 00:14:36,490 Speaker 1: slapped her, and threatened to take their children away. What 288 00:14:36,710 --> 00:14:38,530 Speaker 1: did you make of that story? 289 00:14:39,090 --> 00:14:42,770 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a one-sided story. There is no... It's 290 00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: just someone running to the teacher and saying, you know, 291 00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:48,750 Speaker 3: they stole my homework. There's no other side to it. 292 00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:52,300 Speaker 3: So Bill wasn't there to defend himself. The kids obviously 293 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: weren't there to defend themselves. So my job was to 294 00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:59,430 Speaker 3: play the truth of the story. So... I did as 295 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: best I could. And, you know, I'm going to defend 296 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 3: Bill because I think he was innocent. He did not deserve, 297 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 3: obviously did not deserve what happened to him. But there 298 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,770 Speaker 3: are some facts that suggest maybe he was a volatile 299 00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:16,050 Speaker 3: dude like there. That's in the record as well. So 300 00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:18,270 Speaker 3: I try to I try to honor that as well. 301 00:15:18,390 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: And like, I mean, that to fight over dryer sheets, obviously, 302 00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: there's more going on underneath me. 303 00:15:25,490 --> 00:15:29,460 Speaker 1: Right right it's not about the dryer sheets as yeah 304 00:15:29,940 --> 00:15:32,100 Speaker 1: like many things that was tough. 305 00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:35,300 Speaker 3: To film too because like candace is so lovely and 306 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: i'm stuffing it. 307 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,990 Speaker 1: Right i was wondering that because it was hard to 308 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:44,730 Speaker 1: watch because imagining that it's like uh how did you 309 00:15:44,750 --> 00:15:48,210 Speaker 1: guys do that because just the thought of the dryer 310 00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:51,650 Speaker 1: sheet of the the soaping it, this, it just, all. 311 00:15:51,550 --> 00:15:54,070 Speaker 3: Of it is. Yeah. I mean, I tried to basically, 312 00:15:54,190 --> 00:15:56,490 Speaker 3: if I can remember correctly, you know, it's like a dance. 313 00:15:56,510 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: It's like a fight scene. Yeah. I'm really trying to 314 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 3: hide the dryer sheet and almost like knuckle it more. Yeah. 315 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 316 00:16:02,540 --> 00:16:06,180 Speaker 3: The harder part is just how sadistic it was. I'll 317 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,700 Speaker 3: like Bill. I played it. Like Bill is actually enjoying it. 318 00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:09,450 Speaker 3: Like he was sick. 319 00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:11,230 Speaker 2: Like, I don't know. 320 00:16:11,290 --> 00:16:14,350 Speaker 3: I think that's more interesting than just getting loud and screaming. 321 00:16:14,370 --> 00:16:16,350 Speaker 3: I just think it's interesting. Like someone who's like sadistic, 322 00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:19,330 Speaker 3: like same thing when he came back with the car keys. 323 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: I just find it interesting. It's like, wait, what is 324 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,770 Speaker 3: this dude actually capable of? I don't like the beating 325 00:16:27,790 --> 00:16:29,390 Speaker 3: of the chest to me. Yeah. That can be interesting, 326 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:31,950 Speaker 3: but it's not as interesting. What's interesting to me is like, 327 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 3: if she doesn't kill him, he kill her. 328 00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:37,710 Speaker 1: Well, right. This is what is interesting about the movie 329 00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:43,940 Speaker 1: is that it really doesn't make any kind of strong-armed 330 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,060 Speaker 1: decisions for us as an audience. 331 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: It really does say it could be this or it 332 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: could be this. 333 00:16:50,660 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: And those dynamics of where the relationship is volatile, many 334 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,100 Speaker 1: of us have been in those. And so- that never 335 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: doesn't go to this degree, but just kind of that dynamic. If, 336 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,530 Speaker 1: if it does expand and get worse and continue. And 337 00:17:08,660 --> 00:17:12,570 Speaker 1: I mean, I, you can start to understand, Oh, this 338 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:15,010 Speaker 1: is how these people got to this place. 339 00:17:15,030 --> 00:17:19,010 Speaker 3: Right. If, if, if, if the fights were getting that 340 00:17:19,050 --> 00:17:21,290 Speaker 3: bad and she's just like, he's going to kill me, 341 00:17:21,910 --> 00:17:22,810 Speaker 3: I better do something. 342 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:23,470 Speaker 2: Right. 343 00:17:24,030 --> 00:17:26,969 Speaker 3: I guess that's, one way to kind of approach it. 344 00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:30,450 Speaker 1: But then she, so Melanie said that bill packed is 345 00:17:30,570 --> 00:17:34,580 Speaker 1: after this, this fight that bill packed his belongings and 346 00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: left after this argument, but she didn't immediately report him missing. 347 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: And then bill's sister questioned that from your perspective is 348 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 1: her behavior after the disappearance. 349 00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:48,260 Speaker 2: One of the most suspicious aspects. 350 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,940 Speaker 3: Of the case. Absolutely. Like the husband, I can get like, 351 00:17:51,980 --> 00:17:54,180 Speaker 3: you're upset for a little bit. If there's a big fight, 352 00:17:55,109 --> 00:18:00,010 Speaker 3: but you're not reporting it at all. And like nothing, 353 00:18:00,210 --> 00:18:04,570 Speaker 3: like nothing she did seem like someone, A, who really 354 00:18:04,590 --> 00:18:09,020 Speaker 3: cared about this guy. And then B, like it just, 355 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 3: like I said, the word is irrational. It just doesn't 356 00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:14,860 Speaker 3: make any sense from the standpoint of like, is this 357 00:18:14,940 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 3: person hurt? Like, is everything okay? Is he in trouble 358 00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 3: with the mob? If she actually believed he was in 359 00:18:20,420 --> 00:18:22,290 Speaker 3: trouble with the mob, don't you think you'd be like, wait, 360 00:18:22,510 --> 00:18:27,870 Speaker 3: where's Bill? Right. Right. You weren't following up on any 361 00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:29,830 Speaker 3: of this, but you were searching how to kill people 362 00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:32,609 Speaker 3: and you were buying a gun. You know, I'm not 363 00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:35,530 Speaker 3: supposed to believe you had nothing to do with this. Right. Right. 364 00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:37,470 Speaker 2: I did find her so interesting. 365 00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:39,990 Speaker 1: You know, obviously, none of us know how we would 366 00:18:40,609 --> 00:18:45,050 Speaker 1: behave in these situations. And it's easy for me to say, oh, 367 00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:47,170 Speaker 1: she seems so nonchalant about everything. 368 00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:48,860 Speaker 2: But she kind of did. 369 00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: And felt like i didn't you know like well i 370 00:18:52,540 --> 00:18:55,859 Speaker 1: didn't i didn't do this and maybe someone else did 371 00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:58,500 Speaker 1: you're like where's the urgency. 372 00:18:57,940 --> 00:18:59,980 Speaker 3: That's what i mean about the human condition like did 373 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 3: the lights just go out with her right right because 374 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,379 Speaker 3: like i mean i saw what little court footage i 375 00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:08,100 Speaker 3: could see because it was limited but like it just 376 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,100 Speaker 3: seemed like she was checked out and almost like she's 377 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,660 Speaker 3: like oh i'm gonna get out of this like what 378 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 3: makes you think you're gonna get out of this. 379 00:19:15,670 --> 00:19:15,890 Speaker 2: Right. 380 00:19:16,290 --> 00:19:18,430 Speaker 1: Who's giving you that information? 381 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:22,990 Speaker 3: Yeah. Like you are not in a good spot right now. And, 382 00:19:23,109 --> 00:19:25,670 Speaker 3: you know, I do think they got the verdict right. 383 00:19:25,710 --> 00:19:28,910 Speaker 3: Like I said, like she knows something she's not saying. 384 00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:33,350 Speaker 3: I mean, the only other one thing I learned, what 385 00:19:33,369 --> 00:19:35,649 Speaker 3: I have learned, you know, when I in my I 386 00:19:36,090 --> 00:19:38,850 Speaker 3: don't do I pretty criminal defense in my career. I 387 00:19:38,850 --> 00:19:40,270 Speaker 3: don't really do it that much. But when I did 388 00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:42,209 Speaker 3: do it is like the ultimate way to get away 389 00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:45,379 Speaker 3: with a crime is have a fall guy. That's really 390 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,409 Speaker 3: the only way to actually truly get away with something. 391 00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:49,670 Speaker 2: Because it creates reasonable doubt? 392 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 3: Because it takes it off of you. Yeah. I mean, 393 00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:54,700 Speaker 3: cause you know, it has to be beyond reasonable doubt, 394 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 3: but like to truly get it, to truly get away 395 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,739 Speaker 3: with a crime, you pin it on someone else. Cause 396 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,210 Speaker 3: then case closed. Right. And then the lens moves away 397 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:08,290 Speaker 3: from you. That's why it was very convenient to use 398 00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:14,310 Speaker 3: this mobster technique. because like you can't prove anything right 399 00:20:14,330 --> 00:20:16,070 Speaker 3: oh he got in with the mob he was gambling 400 00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:18,489 Speaker 3: in Atlantic City he ended up in suitcases he just 401 00:20:18,530 --> 00:20:22,070 Speaker 3: named maybe 20,000 guys in any given night right right 402 00:20:22,090 --> 00:20:24,550 Speaker 3: I mean like there's all kinds of dudes who can 403 00:20:24,570 --> 00:20:27,230 Speaker 3: get in with bookies and mob people but they don't 404 00:20:27,290 --> 00:20:30,239 Speaker 3: end up dead like you know maybe they get their 405 00:20:30,260 --> 00:20:34,699 Speaker 3: kneecaps you know right but like they'll get chopped up 406 00:20:34,740 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: and put in a suitcase the mob wants their money right. 407 00:20:37,140 --> 00:20:39,140 Speaker 2: That's not going to get them what they're looking for. 408 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: The gun that Melanie purchased was never recovered and prosecutors 409 00:20:58,380 --> 00:21:02,350 Speaker 1: connected the purchase to the 38 caliber bullets. 410 00:21:02,030 --> 00:21:03,409 Speaker 2: Found in Bill's body. 411 00:21:03,910 --> 00:21:07,290 Speaker 1: Yet another small detail, uh, but they couldn't produce the 412 00:21:07,369 --> 00:21:08,810 Speaker 1: actual weapon as an attorney. 413 00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:11,690 Speaker 2: How significant is that missing piece of evidence? 414 00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:15,340 Speaker 3: I mean, it's tough. It's tough because again, you have 415 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,540 Speaker 3: to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So when you're talking 416 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:23,210 Speaker 3: about civil cases, it's, um, Oh, the terms escape me, 417 00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 3: but it's basically 51%, right? At least 51% guilt. But 418 00:21:30,220 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 3: when you're talking about beyond a reasonable doubt, it's a 419 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 3: pretty high bar. So like without a smoking gun, a 420 00:21:35,109 --> 00:21:38,230 Speaker 3: lot of times you get mistrials, you get, there's just 421 00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:42,270 Speaker 3: not enough here. And so that was a tough one 422 00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:45,290 Speaker 3: for the case for the, I think for the prosecution. 423 00:21:45,310 --> 00:21:49,610 Speaker 3: But I think again, what made this different was like, 424 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,540 Speaker 3: It's just insurmountable circumstantial evidence. There's just so much circumstantial. Right. 425 00:21:55,740 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: The blankets, he was wrapped in blankets that she, bearing 426 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:02,580 Speaker 1: the initials of a hospital supply company, the same blankets 427 00:22:02,619 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 1: supplied to the fertility clinic that she worked at. 428 00:22:06,859 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 3: And the motive, you know, she was having an affair 429 00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:11,060 Speaker 3: with a doctor. I mean, that's a pretty heavy motive 430 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:15,530 Speaker 3: if she wants out. So yeah, I think, you know, 431 00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:18,140 Speaker 3: people do go away for heavy circumstantial evidence. You don't 432 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:19,929 Speaker 3: always need to smoke and gum, but that was a 433 00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:22,490 Speaker 3: tough one You know, if you don't have a murder weapon, 434 00:22:23,109 --> 00:22:26,409 Speaker 3: a lot of in my in my from what I understand, 435 00:22:26,430 --> 00:22:29,149 Speaker 3: a lot of cases go by the wayside. If you 436 00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:34,620 Speaker 3: can't connect, you know, the accused to the murder weapon. Yeah. 437 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,740 Speaker 1: Well, so the investigators also discovered a syringe and a 438 00:22:37,780 --> 00:22:42,070 Speaker 1: bottle of chloral hydrate, which is a powerful sedative. In 439 00:22:42,109 --> 00:22:44,810 Speaker 1: Bill's abandoned car, the prescription had been filled on the 440 00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:49,470 Speaker 1: morning of April 28th using a prescription pad associated with 441 00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:52,770 Speaker 1: the man she was having an affair with, Dr. Bradley Miller. 442 00:22:53,210 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: Miller denied writing it. I mean, how incriminating. 443 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,500 Speaker 3: You can't explain this. Like Bill's not doing this to himself. Right. 444 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 3: So like, I don't, I don't know how you, and 445 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 3: these are the things I mean, it's like, there is 446 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,550 Speaker 3: zero explanation for that. And if she doesn't have an 447 00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:09,970 Speaker 3: answer for it, she's like, well, I don't know. Where 448 00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:12,460 Speaker 3: do you go from there? I mean, that's, And again, 449 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:18,150 Speaker 3: that's why I felt like this whole delicate flower, I'm 450 00:23:18,190 --> 00:23:22,149 Speaker 3: completely innocent. I don't know anything. It was never going 451 00:23:22,170 --> 00:23:22,830 Speaker 3: to work for them. 452 00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:24,070 Speaker 2: Right. 453 00:23:24,750 --> 00:23:26,510 Speaker 3: We were better off being like, I hated that guy. 454 00:23:26,530 --> 00:23:29,230 Speaker 3: You know, I didn't want to be with him anymore. 455 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:31,700 Speaker 3: I'm in love with this guy. I want a divorce. 456 00:23:32,820 --> 00:23:34,379 Speaker 3: I did not kill this guy. I don't know what 457 00:23:34,420 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 3: he got himself involved in. Right. Right. Would that have worked? 458 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 3: I don't know. Probably not. Honestly, probably still wouldn't have worked. 459 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: I think there's too much evidence. 460 00:23:44,170 --> 00:23:48,670 Speaker 1: A defense computer expert testified that some of the suspicious 461 00:23:48,730 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: searches that we talked about occurred close in time to 462 00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: visits to the websites associated with Bill's work or interests. 463 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,659 Speaker 2: Does that raise questions for you about how the computer 464 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 2: evidence was presented? 465 00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:05,770 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean, 466 00:24:07,970 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: You know, Bill's job is like, he was computer tech 467 00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:14,820 Speaker 3: and in consulting, like it didn't seem to play into 468 00:24:14,859 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 3: this too much. You know, I don't think I, that 469 00:24:18,820 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 3: was a part with me with Bill. Like he just 470 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: really just seemed like an, like a pretty typical dude. Right. 471 00:24:25,580 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 3: Stuck probably in a bad marriage, but like, obviously that's 472 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,070 Speaker 3: not that rare, you know? And you know, he was 473 00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:37,220 Speaker 3: basically like, Starting to feel trapped. So was he increasing 474 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 3: the gambling? Was he increasing the womanizing? He obviously didn't 475 00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: want to be in this house. That was well documented. Right. 476 00:24:44,859 --> 00:24:47,010 Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there 477 00:24:47,030 --> 00:24:49,730 Speaker 3: was a whole lot more. I mean, in the scheme 478 00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:53,149 Speaker 3: of things, he was doing pretty well in 2004 in 479 00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:58,690 Speaker 3: his career. He was doing well. He wanted peace. I think, again, 480 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:01,929 Speaker 3: the way I played him was I think he felt 481 00:25:02,090 --> 00:25:04,929 Speaker 3: he needed to get out of there. Right. what Virginia 482 00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 3: beach was about. He felt more, you know, when you 483 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,859 Speaker 3: hang around these places where you grew up or, you know, 484 00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 3: when you're, when you're always going to these casinos, you 485 00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:15,899 Speaker 3: meet certain people that keep you involved in certain behaviors. 486 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,859 Speaker 3: So maybe there's a part of this, like trying to 487 00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:21,180 Speaker 3: save himself, save his family. Let's get out of here. 488 00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:23,790 Speaker 3: We don't need to be here anymore. You know, let's 489 00:25:23,810 --> 00:25:25,890 Speaker 3: go to Virginia beach, but she wasn't on board with that. 490 00:25:25,910 --> 00:25:29,310 Speaker 3: So I don't know if that really answers your question. 491 00:25:29,490 --> 00:25:30,730 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it does. 492 00:25:30,890 --> 00:25:37,550 Speaker 1: So, um, Prosecutors believed that Bill was dismembered inside the 493 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:42,810 Speaker 1: couple's apartment, possibly in the bathroom. But the investigators repeatedly 494 00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: searched the apartment, including the plumbing and other areas, without 495 00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:50,300 Speaker 1: finding any physical evidence establishing it as the crime scene. 496 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,860 Speaker 2: How do you explain that absence? 497 00:25:54,980 --> 00:25:57,340 Speaker 3: Well, one thing that comes to mind is they could 498 00:25:57,380 --> 00:26:01,730 Speaker 3: have blown it. They could have blown their search. Right. 499 00:26:01,810 --> 00:26:04,470 Speaker 3: They could have missed something and then something got compromised. 500 00:26:04,770 --> 00:26:08,090 Speaker 3: Just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean they didn't 501 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:11,030 Speaker 3: find something. It could have meant it was inadmissible because 502 00:26:11,050 --> 00:26:15,830 Speaker 3: it was mishandled properly, which is called poisonous tree. Now, 503 00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:17,750 Speaker 3: I don't know if that was a fax of this case, 504 00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:20,430 Speaker 3: but I know that can happen. You can't get people 505 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:23,409 Speaker 3: to come through and they did something improperly. Right. And 506 00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:26,850 Speaker 3: I'm like, look, we can't use that now. You've compromised that. Right. 507 00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:33,250 Speaker 3: That's one particular explanation. And our explanation is like, like 508 00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:35,230 Speaker 3: I said, her lights are out. Maybe she spent a 509 00:26:35,310 --> 00:26:38,170 Speaker 3: lot of time planning this. Right. Maybe she was just 510 00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:41,910 Speaker 3: ready to go. Yeah. Very motivated and not getting caught. 511 00:26:42,859 --> 00:26:45,659 Speaker 3: Now what's tricky is like, she wasn't a very, she's 512 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: not a very big person and he, you know, Bill's 513 00:26:48,619 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 3: not a small dude. So that part's a little interesting, 514 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,899 Speaker 3: but I guess once you start hacking off limbs, it 515 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,449 Speaker 3: gets a little bit easier. Oh my gosh. Right. 516 00:26:56,850 --> 00:26:59,179 Speaker 2: And that scene within the movie is. 517 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 3: Oh, we were laughing so much. We had so much fun. 518 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,180 Speaker 2: Oh, I bet. You're like, now it's become a horror movie. 519 00:27:05,420 --> 00:27:07,020 Speaker 3: We had so much fun filming that. 520 00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:10,540 Speaker 1: I'm still getting back to your theory because I think 521 00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: that you're right. That what if she, because she's the nurse, 522 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: knows how to give him the drugs that will put 523 00:27:19,580 --> 00:27:22,580 Speaker 1: him out. So she does that. And then somebody just 524 00:27:22,619 --> 00:27:25,940 Speaker 1: comes and takes him out. And they do it somewhere else. 525 00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:28,930 Speaker 3: It's not hard. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not hard. 526 00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:31,770 Speaker 3: I mean, look, if she has any kind of connections 527 00:27:31,810 --> 00:27:33,250 Speaker 3: at all and she wants to find a hit man 528 00:27:33,310 --> 00:27:36,149 Speaker 3: or find someone who doesn't want to be found. And 529 00:27:36,190 --> 00:27:38,109 Speaker 3: that's what I mean. It's like, she knows something she's 530 00:27:38,150 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 3: not saying. Maybe something's like, I'll help you with this. 531 00:27:41,020 --> 00:27:43,740 Speaker 3: It's going to cost you this. If you ever peep 532 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,900 Speaker 3: my name, I'm going to kill you and everyone, you know, 533 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 3: like that's how these things go. Right. 534 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: It's not like an easy, like here's, here's a grand. 535 00:27:53,380 --> 00:27:53,580 Speaker 3: Yeah. 536 00:27:53,619 --> 00:27:54,270 Speaker 2: Take care of it. 537 00:27:54,380 --> 00:27:57,500 Speaker 3: So it's like, you know, does she know something and 538 00:27:57,540 --> 00:28:01,389 Speaker 3: she's not saying it? Well, that would explain that your 539 00:28:01,410 --> 00:28:05,450 Speaker 3: entire family to be completely mowed over. Like you don't 540 00:28:05,530 --> 00:28:10,149 Speaker 3: hear what you did, you know, but I think it is, 541 00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:14,770 Speaker 3: it is impressive how there was very little evidence left behind. 542 00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:19,580 Speaker 3: But again, I would attribute that to, and I'm not 543 00:28:19,619 --> 00:28:22,500 Speaker 3: trying to, you know, crap on the authorities. I'm by all, 544 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,670 Speaker 3: by all, Accounts, they did a good job, but there's 545 00:28:25,690 --> 00:28:31,190 Speaker 3: always a possibility that something was compromised. And then again, like, 546 00:28:32,210 --> 00:28:33,929 Speaker 3: it wasn't as advanced then. I mean, we still had 547 00:28:33,950 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 3: DNA evidence, but it wasn't as advanced to that point 548 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,340 Speaker 3: where they can kind of get the microfibers and take 549 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:42,220 Speaker 3: it to the lab. 550 00:28:43,020 --> 00:28:46,860 Speaker 1: And she also had enough time because she didn't report 551 00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: him missing. 552 00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:49,780 Speaker 3: She didn't have time in the world. I mean, this was, 553 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,790 Speaker 3: you know, assuming she did do this crime, like, It 554 00:28:52,830 --> 00:28:54,630 Speaker 3: was all in her time. She could have planned it out, 555 00:28:54,650 --> 00:28:57,959 Speaker 3: knocked him out on the couch. 556 00:28:58,220 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: Oh, God. Right, right. Candace described filming the scene where 557 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,180 Speaker 1: she had to push the suitcases over the bridge, which 558 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,390 Speaker 1: have his body parts in them. And she said the 559 00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:13,610 Speaker 1: props were difficult to handle, even though they weighed less 560 00:29:13,730 --> 00:29:18,670 Speaker 1: than the real suitcases would have. Did watching that, recreation 561 00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:22,130 Speaker 1: make you all question whether melanie could have acted alone 562 00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:24,050 Speaker 1: just that simple part of it. 563 00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:26,700 Speaker 3: I think so i mean i didn't actually see the 564 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 3: filming but yeah i've seen it on the on the 565 00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 3: screen i think so it's just you can only suspend 566 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,410 Speaker 3: your disbelief so much right right at least in my 567 00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:39,870 Speaker 3: opinion until you get to a point and you're just 568 00:29:39,890 --> 00:29:43,580 Speaker 3: like okay common sense prevails this doesn't make any sense 569 00:29:44,780 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 3: like she can't lift all this a b who's gonna 570 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,420 Speaker 3: do that in broad daylight right you know i don't 571 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,140 Speaker 3: pose broad daylight at night but like who's gonna do 572 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,700 Speaker 3: that in a public setting anyway right why are you 573 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,220 Speaker 3: doing it on a beach where the waves are coming 574 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 3: back in like there's better places to bury it babe 575 00:30:01,820 --> 00:30:03,820 Speaker 3: you know like right. 576 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: It's really it doesn't none of it this is like 577 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,050 Speaker 1: none of it makes any sense to me. 578 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,110 Speaker 3: Yeah and irrational it was it was an irrational act 579 00:30:14,170 --> 00:30:17,630 Speaker 3: by someone who was very irrational who i think had 580 00:30:17,670 --> 00:30:22,290 Speaker 3: help um which would explain a lot of the blanks 581 00:30:22,330 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 3: in the story now not having i mean and whoever 582 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,860 Speaker 3: helped them was probably good Cause I didn't leave out 583 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,180 Speaker 3: a lot of evidence. Right. I just don't, again, there's 584 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,990 Speaker 3: not enough evidence as far as the mob thing goes 585 00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:38,950 Speaker 3: and the gambling thing goes. It was just a narrative. 586 00:30:39,770 --> 00:30:40,030 Speaker 2: Right. 587 00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:44,950 Speaker 3: There's no real evidence that he was. Like just basically 588 00:30:45,020 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: Atlantic city gambling mob. Like that, that was literally the 589 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,780 Speaker 3: whole through line. Right. Right. And I think I remember 590 00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:58,390 Speaker 3: seeing some of Bill's family, like, Speaking up at the 591 00:30:58,430 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: time being like, no, like he just casually gambled. Like, 592 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 3: what is this? He wasn't a crazy gambler. 593 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,690 Speaker 1: Investigators discovered tiny particles of Bill's tissue on the floor 594 00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:27,670 Speaker 1: mats of his car that is evidence that the media dubbed, quote, 595 00:31:27,710 --> 00:31:33,110 Speaker 1: human sawdust, which is very upsetting on its own. And 596 00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:37,250 Speaker 1: DNA testing linked those particles to Bill, and the prosecution 597 00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:41,459 Speaker 1: expert said they contain deeper layers of skin not normally 598 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,100 Speaker 1: shed by a living person. but the expert acknowledged that 599 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,330 Speaker 1: an injury could produce similar tissue. How persuasive did you 600 00:31:51,390 --> 00:31:52,530 Speaker 1: find that evidence? 601 00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:57,190 Speaker 3: Once they started getting into that expert of that, I 602 00:31:57,230 --> 00:32:00,030 Speaker 3: didn't find that very persuasive. I mean, I, to me, 603 00:32:01,050 --> 00:32:04,660 Speaker 3: everything else did most of the heavy lifting because once 604 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 3: you start getting that expert testimony, it's, you're kind of, 605 00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:12,940 Speaker 3: you know, one expert can say one thing, another expert 606 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,300 Speaker 3: can completely dispute it. And so that's, I mean, that's 607 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: the whole game of when they voir dire these expert witnesses, 608 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 3: they bring in the prosecution's got their guy, defense's got 609 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: their guy, they're saying different things. And then, you know, 610 00:32:26,660 --> 00:32:29,620 Speaker 3: as far as, but I think there's also explanations. Like 611 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,330 Speaker 3: if the suitcase was in the house, she could have 612 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:35,830 Speaker 3: handled it at some point and had nothing to do 613 00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:36,670 Speaker 3: with the crime. Right. 614 00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:37,390 Speaker 1: Right. 615 00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 3: Right. So it's like, you can't really connect that. Um, 616 00:32:41,820 --> 00:32:44,180 Speaker 3: even cleaning the closet, you can get some of your 617 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,420 Speaker 3: DNA on something. Right. Right. Um, you know, and same 618 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,740 Speaker 3: thing with Bill. So I didn't, I didn't, once I 619 00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:52,740 Speaker 3: got into that, you know, I think it's more evidence, 620 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 3: but I didn't find that as compelling as some of 621 00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 3: the other stuff. Right. Right. 622 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,090 Speaker 1: And so Melanie made private video diaries for CBS's 48 623 00:33:03,090 --> 00:33:04,570 Speaker 1: hours while awaiting trial. 624 00:33:04,590 --> 00:33:08,910 Speaker 2: I find that disturbing also, but that's neither here nor 625 00:33:08,930 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 2: there for this. Um, In one. 626 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,980 Speaker 1: She worried about her children, how her children would remember her. 627 00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: In another, she described feeling betrayed by people close to her. 628 00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: Did you watch any of those recordings while you were 629 00:33:22,020 --> 00:33:22,870 Speaker 1: preparing for the movie? 630 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 3: Did not. You know, I did not watch any of those. 631 00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:27,230 Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, I don't know if that 632 00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:29,230 Speaker 3: would have really helped me do my job too much. 633 00:33:29,630 --> 00:33:31,410 Speaker 2: Yeah. 634 00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:36,930 Speaker 3: I mean, that's classic defense. Right. You know, trying to 635 00:33:36,990 --> 00:33:40,580 Speaker 3: raise empathy. Yep. you know, really doing what you're not 636 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: supposed to do is trying to get the public involved. 637 00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:46,180 Speaker 3: And again, I think a big factor in this is 638 00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 3: we forget how different things were in 2004. You know, 639 00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:54,850 Speaker 3: this was what, I don't know, 10 years removed from OJ. Right. Yes. 640 00:33:54,970 --> 00:33:55,770 Speaker 2: Literally 10. 641 00:33:55,770 --> 00:33:59,570 Speaker 3: Yeah. We were still kind of navigating what the world 642 00:33:59,610 --> 00:34:03,210 Speaker 3: looks like when we had these big high profile cases. Right. 643 00:34:03,490 --> 00:34:06,490 Speaker 3: So they were probably playing that game a little bit. Now, 644 00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:08,589 Speaker 3: did she mean that? I would think on some level, 645 00:34:08,630 --> 00:34:10,489 Speaker 3: of course, she's a mother. Of course, she cares about 646 00:34:10,530 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 3: her kids on some level. But was her true motive 647 00:34:14,140 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 3: to get out of this thing when she was in 648 00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 3: too deep? Or was this, you know, actually completely earnest 649 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 3: by her? Right. See, I'm sure Candace saw that. But no, 650 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,050 Speaker 3: I didn't watch any of that stuff. 651 00:34:28,170 --> 00:34:31,509 Speaker 2: And it is, you know, I think something happens. You 652 00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:34,250 Speaker 2: can start to believe your own lie, right? 653 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:34,410 Speaker 3: Yeah. 654 00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:39,130 Speaker 1: And then say like, yeah, this sounds good. This is, yeah, no, 655 00:34:39,170 --> 00:34:39,950 Speaker 1: this is what happened. 656 00:34:39,969 --> 00:34:42,850 Speaker 3: I mean, everyone's a hero of their own story, you know? 657 00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:46,490 Speaker 3: So it's like, of course, like she'll like, I'm the victim. 658 00:34:48,070 --> 00:34:49,950 Speaker 3: You know, if she did do it, he deserved this. 659 00:34:50,469 --> 00:34:52,890 Speaker 3: He was going to kill me. He's a bad person. 660 00:34:52,910 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 3: I mean, again, you can just, you can convince yourself. 661 00:34:55,989 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 3: And then, you know, the other thing we're talking about 662 00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 3: as a doctor, we don't know how much influence he 663 00:35:02,739 --> 00:35:06,670 Speaker 3: had on her. Right. Right. Was he a pretty cunning 664 00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:10,650 Speaker 3: dude who was leading her in this direction? Yeah. 665 00:35:11,870 --> 00:35:14,489 Speaker 1: This is why I'm very curious about that as well, 666 00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:19,549 Speaker 1: because he seems to sort of just fall away and 667 00:35:19,610 --> 00:35:21,890 Speaker 1: no one really talks about him. 668 00:35:22,210 --> 00:35:25,050 Speaker 3: I think he lawyered up and he kind of just 669 00:35:26,050 --> 00:35:28,490 Speaker 3: did what he needed to do. Backed away. Not getting involved. 670 00:35:28,530 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 3: But I also think there wasn't a whole lot on him. 671 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 3: Like there wasn't, you know, we didn't have... mic a 672 00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:38,140 Speaker 3: mic on him i think at one point he miked 673 00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:38,700 Speaker 3: her on a. 674 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,620 Speaker 2: Call yes for phone calls right. 675 00:35:41,340 --> 00:35:43,910 Speaker 3: But we didn't have much on him but like was 676 00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:47,009 Speaker 3: he in her head like get him out of the. 677 00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:50,790 Speaker 1: Way or right like we will never know their private 678 00:35:51,330 --> 00:35:52,989 Speaker 1: conversations right. 679 00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:57,810 Speaker 3: I mean he seemingly seemingly didn't seem like a guy 680 00:35:57,830 --> 00:36:00,390 Speaker 3: like that but again we don't know we not only 681 00:36:00,410 --> 00:36:02,330 Speaker 3: doesn't seem like someone who would chop someone up either. 682 00:36:02,469 --> 00:36:08,750 Speaker 1: Exactly I find her a very curious, just a fascinating person. Well, 683 00:36:08,930 --> 00:36:13,010 Speaker 1: I don't, I do because I don't, well, at first 684 00:36:13,070 --> 00:36:16,180 Speaker 1: I was, I was buying this idea. It sounds good, 685 00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:19,460 Speaker 1: but to your point, it's a story of just dropping 686 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: things like, Oh, mob gambling problem, enemies, little violent sleeps 687 00:36:25,380 --> 00:36:26,069 Speaker 1: with other ladies. 688 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,630 Speaker 3: Like it's right. 689 00:36:27,969 --> 00:36:30,690 Speaker 1: But there's no real, when you realize no one else 690 00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:34,460 Speaker 1: was corroborating anything, I don't think any piece of that story. 691 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 2: Like he had a lot of. 692 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,649 Speaker 1: Friends that were in his defense and then also saying, look, 693 00:36:40,690 --> 00:36:43,310 Speaker 1: he could be an annoying guy. Like he could be 694 00:36:43,530 --> 00:36:45,910 Speaker 1: sort of like, he's got a strong personality or, you know, 695 00:36:45,930 --> 00:36:47,990 Speaker 1: they weren't saying he was this perfect man. 696 00:36:48,010 --> 00:36:50,430 Speaker 3: You're talking about a guy who was, he was a 697 00:36:50,530 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 3: Navy vet. He had a good job. He was by 698 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 3: all accounts, a good father. Like there's not a lot 699 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 3: of damning evidence against this man as being abusive other 700 00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:03,630 Speaker 3: than what she said. Right. He had a record, I 701 00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:08,660 Speaker 3: don't believe, no criminal record. There was no evidence of 702 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 3: him ever being abusive with her. Who doesn't argue and 703 00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 3: shout in a relationship at some point? 704 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:15,420 Speaker 2: For sure. 705 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 3: So it's like, that's the part that when I took 706 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,780 Speaker 3: on the role of Bill, I really took that as like, 707 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,890 Speaker 3: this guy obviously did not deserve what happened to him, 708 00:37:27,930 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 3: but I really don't think he I never believe the 709 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,460 Speaker 3: mob aspect from the beginning. It doesn't smell right. Like 710 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 3: that sounds stupid. The mob doesn't do, doesn't work like this. 711 00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 3: I mean, maybe they do. I don't know. I don't 712 00:37:41,260 --> 00:37:43,460 Speaker 3: know that much about the mob, but it just didn't 713 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 3: make sense to me. Right. So, okay. 714 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: After playing bill, studying the case, discussing it, all these things, 715 00:37:50,420 --> 00:37:54,410 Speaker 1: where do you believe that Melanie killed her husband? And 716 00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:57,049 Speaker 1: if you had been on that jury, could you have 717 00:37:57,090 --> 00:37:59,430 Speaker 1: voted to convict her beyond a reasonable doubt? 718 00:37:59,790 --> 00:38:01,650 Speaker 3: Yes, I could. I mean, I don't think it's a 719 00:38:01,650 --> 00:38:04,870 Speaker 3: slam dunk. I really don't because I am someone who 720 00:38:04,890 --> 00:38:07,969 Speaker 3: really believes in beyond a reasonable doubt because there are 721 00:38:08,010 --> 00:38:11,549 Speaker 3: innocent people in prison, you know? Um, so it's not 722 00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:14,540 Speaker 3: a slam dunk, but yeah, like I said, at the 723 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 3: very least, she knows something she's not saying and that 724 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,700 Speaker 3: makes her guilty. In my opinion, she was involved in 725 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 3: the murder and, you know, you can still be guilty 726 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,940 Speaker 3: of murder if you don't pull the trigger. Right. Yeah. Um, 727 00:38:28,330 --> 00:38:31,070 Speaker 3: So yes, I would have convicted her based on the evidence. 728 00:38:32,330 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 3: And I, you know, I think she'll probably be in 729 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,700 Speaker 3: for life. I don't, I think she's trying to appeal, 730 00:38:38,739 --> 00:38:40,060 Speaker 3: but it doesn't really sound like it. 731 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: The last she, I think she has exhausted her final appeal. 732 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 2: She has not been successful with any of them. And 733 00:38:49,830 --> 00:38:51,469 Speaker 2: that's the last that I read. 734 00:38:51,489 --> 00:38:53,509 Speaker 3: There's no new evidence. No. 735 00:38:53,650 --> 00:38:56,210 Speaker 1: And it makes me think about, you know, Scott Peterson 736 00:38:56,250 --> 00:38:59,750 Speaker 1: was trying, had a, attempt at a new trial because 737 00:38:59,770 --> 00:39:02,770 Speaker 1: of evidence and, you know, the innocence project took him on. 738 00:39:02,850 --> 00:39:06,250 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, why isn't she getting that? And 739 00:39:06,530 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: I think she's not getting that because they don't change. 740 00:39:10,489 --> 00:39:11,280 Speaker 2: Nothing's changed. 741 00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:15,700 Speaker 3: And again, it's like the evidentiary materials are 20 years 742 00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:19,540 Speaker 3: old at this point. Nothing's changed. It was probably limited 743 00:39:19,620 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 3: as it was. What are you going to litigate about bill? 744 00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 3: The man's been gone for 20 years. Right. You know, 745 00:39:28,660 --> 00:39:32,620 Speaker 3: you don't seem to have a whole lot of public support. 746 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,330 Speaker 3: I don't think anyway. I mean, you may be able 747 00:39:35,350 --> 00:39:36,530 Speaker 3: to answer that better than me. 748 00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:37,550 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 749 00:39:37,630 --> 00:39:40,649 Speaker 1: No, I haven't seen anything that is, you know, kind 750 00:39:40,690 --> 00:39:42,549 Speaker 1: of erupting about her. 751 00:39:42,570 --> 00:39:44,740 Speaker 3: No. And this was ripped from the headlines. I think 752 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 3: a lot of people forgot about this, especially modern day watchers. 753 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,420 Speaker 3: I mean, it was 20 years ago. A lot's happened. Yep. 754 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:53,820 Speaker 2: A lot has happened. 755 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,820 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean, there's, you know, the news cycle 756 00:39:56,860 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 3: moves fast. So, you know, I hate to say it, 757 00:40:00,420 --> 00:40:02,259 Speaker 3: but like, I mean, this was a big crime at 758 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,330 Speaker 3: the time, but like now this is kind of happening 759 00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:08,730 Speaker 3: because we're in a world where news is so readily available. 760 00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:13,230 Speaker 3: We're hearing about awful things all the time now. Right. Yeah, 761 00:40:13,330 --> 00:40:14,870 Speaker 3: I can't imagine it's going to change for her, but 762 00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:20,649 Speaker 3: I think it ended the way it should have. And 763 00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:23,489 Speaker 3: I mean, are there a lot of people who have 764 00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:26,970 Speaker 3: racially defended her as she was innocent in your experience 765 00:40:27,010 --> 00:40:27,609 Speaker 3: from what you saw? 766 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 1: No, I think, you know, there was a whole podcast 767 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,350 Speaker 1: that was started on her. I don't know, I wouldn't 768 00:40:35,370 --> 00:40:39,990 Speaker 1: say on her behalf, but someone approached these women saying 769 00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: that Melanie wanted her story told. And I think they 770 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,980 Speaker 1: were believing her and wanting to. But again, I don't 771 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: think there was a big groundswell behind this because if 772 00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: there was, I think we would be. 773 00:40:55,110 --> 00:40:56,660 Speaker 2: You and I would both know about it. 774 00:40:56,810 --> 00:40:59,690 Speaker 3: Part of it too is like, you know, deep down, 775 00:40:59,850 --> 00:41:02,549 Speaker 3: we want to believe her. We want to think like 776 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,299 Speaker 3: something this awful is not possible. Right. But we all 777 00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:10,219 Speaker 3: know it is. Right. Like this happens every day, unfortunately. 778 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 3: So yeah, there's probably people who want to believe, no, 779 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,770 Speaker 3: there must be an explanation. Bill got in too deep. 780 00:41:17,890 --> 00:41:20,890 Speaker 3: It's a really sad story, but it's like, no, it 781 00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:22,490 Speaker 3: could just be exactly what it seems. 782 00:41:22,910 --> 00:41:26,090 Speaker 2: And Could just be that she wanted a different life. 783 00:41:26,670 --> 00:41:28,850 Speaker 3: Wanted a different life. The lights went out. She kind 784 00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:32,750 Speaker 3: of like something snapped in her. But yeah, the heartbreaking 785 00:41:32,810 --> 00:41:35,190 Speaker 3: thing outside of a man losing his life was just 786 00:41:35,230 --> 00:41:37,930 Speaker 3: really what happened with the kids. I mean, lots of parents. 787 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:38,770 Speaker 1: I know. 788 00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:42,410 Speaker 2: Do we know where they are? Do you know where 789 00:41:42,450 --> 00:41:43,310 Speaker 2: those kids are now? 790 00:41:43,330 --> 00:41:47,009 Speaker 3: I mean, they're grown. They're adults. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah. 791 00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:48,210 Speaker 3: I don't know. 792 00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:53,779 Speaker 2: It's really tragic. It's really. Well, Michael, this has been fascinating. 793 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 794 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,180 Speaker 1: It's really been a pleasure because you also know so 795 00:41:58,219 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 1: much about the law and all of this. 796 00:42:00,020 --> 00:42:03,049 Speaker 2: So it's really been great. I appreciate your time. 797 00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:06,430 Speaker 1: And the movie's called Suitcase Killer, The Melanie McGuire Story, 798 00:42:06,590 --> 00:42:08,110 Speaker 1: and it's streaming on Netflix. 799 00:42:09,150 --> 00:42:10,810 Speaker 2: And thank you so much, Michael. 800 00:42:10,830 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.