WEBVTT - Firefighter Firebugs: The Small but Impactful Phenomenon

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership

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<v Speaker 1>with iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>When Olie's Home Center hardware store on far Oaks Avenue

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<v Speaker 2>went up in flames on the evening of October tenth,

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty four, in South Pasadena, California, the fire destroyed

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<v Speaker 2>the building and killed four people inside. Arson investigators declared

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<v Speaker 2>the cause was electrical in nature and that it was accidental,

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<v Speaker 2>but a man named John Orr disagreed with that assessment

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<v Speaker 2>and was sure that it was set intentionally. John Orr

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<v Speaker 2>is a former firefighter, fire captain, and arson investigator. He's

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<v Speaker 2>also a convicted serial arsonist, and the hardware store is

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<v Speaker 2>just one example of his crimes. He knew the store

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<v Speaker 2>fire was arson because he himself had ignited it or

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<v Speaker 2>set roughly too thousand fires in the Glendale, California area,

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<v Speaker 2>primarily between nineteen eighty four and nineteen ninety one. He

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<v Speaker 2>would set a fire and then he'd be part of

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<v Speaker 2>the team that investigated it. His peers at first thought

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<v Speaker 2>he had an uncanny knack for finding a fire's point

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<v Speaker 2>of origin. When Or was caught after his fingerprint was

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<v Speaker 2>found at a crime scene, he was charged and convicted

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<v Speaker 2>on four counts of first degree murder and multiple multiple

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<v Speaker 2>counts of arson. Sentenced without parole. It's expected he'll be

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<v Speaker 2>incarcerated for the remainder of his life. His fire setting

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<v Speaker 2>is unsettling, but he's actually part of a phenomenon firefighter

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<v Speaker 2>arson and it's what we're talking about in this episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria Tremarky.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm Holly Frye. Firefighters who set fires officially called

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<v Speaker 1>firefighter arsonists. That's not a new thing. Matthew Hines Aldrich,

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<v Speaker 1>lead author on the twenty eleven National Volunteer Fire Council's

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<v Speaker 1>Report on the Firefight Arson Problem and self titled Chief

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<v Speaker 1>Fire Data Nerd, explains that firefighter arsenists date at least

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<v Speaker 1>back to the eighteen thirties. That's when you first see

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<v Speaker 1>reports in the historical record of a farm laborer who

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<v Speaker 1>was also a part time firefighter who was also executed

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<v Speaker 1>for setting a series of fires. Today, the percent of

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<v Speaker 1>arsenists among the estimated one point two million firefighters in

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<v Speaker 1>the United States is very small, but they still have

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<v Speaker 1>a significant impact on both their communities and their units.

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<v Speaker 1>According to now retired arson investigator and profiler Edward Nordskog quote,

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<v Speaker 1>there's roughly one hundred firefighter arsenists convicted every year in

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<v Speaker 1>North America, and all of them are serial arsonists, which

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<v Speaker 1>means three or more fires. John Orr, who Maria mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>in that opening, is considered one of the most prolific,

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<v Speaker 1>if not the most prolific firefighter arsenist in history.

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<v Speaker 2>So how does this happen? How does a firefighter turn

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<v Speaker 2>into an arsonist? Well, let's take a look. While insurance

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<v Speaker 2>fraud and personal profit are a few common motives for

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<v Speaker 2>arson outside the firefighting community, investigators say those aren't necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>what drive firefighter arsenists. In nineteen fifty one, Columbia University

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<v Speaker 2>psychiatrists Noel Lewis and Helen Yarnell published the results of

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<v Speaker 2>a first of its kind, large scale study of arsenists,

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<v Speaker 2>and they concluded that overall, arsenists were quote weak individuals.

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<v Speaker 2>Firefighter arsenists, in their findings, were even more problematic. Lewis

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<v Speaker 2>and Yarnell's research concluded these arsenists specifically were quote little

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<v Speaker 2>men with grandiose social ambitions whose natural equipment dooms them

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<v Speaker 2>to insignificance. As additional research was and is conducted, though

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<v Speaker 2>expert beliefs have evolved from categorizing the cause as weakness

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<v Speaker 2>to an answer that's just not so simple.

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<v Speaker 1>Multiple psychological studies have been conducted in more recent decades

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<v Speaker 1>since the nineteen fifties to determine why someone becomes a

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<v Speaker 1>firefighter arsenist. Even with a developed FBI profile, which we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about in just a minute, still, the

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<v Speaker 1>majority of psychological evaluations that have been used to try

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<v Speaker 1>to determine if a person will become a firefighter arsenist,

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<v Speaker 1>they fail at the task. Detective Joseph Kitzinger, head of

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<v Speaker 1>the Arson Squad of the Suffolk County Police Department on

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<v Speaker 1>Long Island, New York, has stated, quote to pinpoint what

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<v Speaker 1>the actual motivation is, it's complicated. Experts who have studied

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<v Speaker 1>arson by firefighters agree that it is not easy to

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<v Speaker 1>determine what motivates a person to change from public servant

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<v Speaker 1>to felon. Former Connecticut at State Police Sergeant James Butterworth,

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<v Speaker 1>who spent years assigned to the State Fire Marshal's office,

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<v Speaker 1>adds that in his experience, quote, most don't want to

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<v Speaker 1>hurt anyone or cause anyone a loss of income. These

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<v Speaker 1>are people who usually begin as highly motivated and highly

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<v Speaker 1>trained firefighters. Current research shows that most firefighter arsonists don't

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<v Speaker 1>actually consider setting fires until after they have joined the

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<v Speaker 1>fire service, and the impulse usually develops within their first

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<v Speaker 1>few months or years on the job.

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<v Speaker 2>So this profile. In the nineteen nineties, the Federal Bureau

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<v Speaker 2>of Investigation's Behavior Analysis Unit conducted a series of interviews

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<v Speaker 2>with incarcerated firefighter arsonists, which they then used to outline

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<v Speaker 2>characteristics of firefighters and firefighter candidates most at risk for

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<v Speaker 2>becoming fire setters. When they released that profile in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety four, it included these nine actress okay, so. One.

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<v Speaker 2>They noted most offenders are white males between the ages

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<v Speaker 2>of seventeen and twenty five, And this makes sense when

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<v Speaker 2>you consider that in the United States, nearly all more

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<v Speaker 2>than ninety five percent of firefighters identify as male, and

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five percent are white.

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<v Speaker 1>Two.

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<v Speaker 2>One or both parents were missing from the home during

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<v Speaker 2>that firefighter's childhood. If they grew up in an intact home,

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<v Speaker 2>the FBI described the emotional atmosphere as likely mixed and unstable. Three.

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<v Speaker 2>Many have a cold, distant, hostile, or aggressive relationship with

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<v Speaker 2>their biological father. Four they have poor marital adjustment, or

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<v Speaker 2>if they aren't married, it's likely they live with their parents.

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<v Speaker 2>Five they lack stable interpersonal relationships. Six they have poor

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<v Speaker 2>occupational adjustment, and also in regard to their work history,

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<v Speaker 2>they often have experience working in menial labor jobs and

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<v Speaker 2>racle positions or as skilled laborers. Seven they are interested

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<v Speaker 2>in fire service in the context that it provides a

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<v Speaker 2>stage for excitement, not for the public service.

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<v Speaker 1>Eight they are.

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<v Speaker 2>At a higher risk for alcoholism, childhood hyperactivity, depression, borderline

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<v Speaker 2>personality disorder, and suicidal ideation. And last on their list,

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<v Speaker 2>firefighter arsonists have average to hire intelligence but poor academic performance.

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<v Speaker 2>So that is a lot to unpack. We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>take a break for a word from our sponsor, and

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<v Speaker 2>when we return, let's talk about this profile and the

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<v Speaker 2>slight variations and expansions that have occurred since it was compiled.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Criminalia. Let's talk about that profile that

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<v Speaker 1>Maria read about before the break, and let's also get

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<v Speaker 1>into what motivates a firefighter to commit acts of arson

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<v Speaker 1>and how it differs from arsonists in the general population.

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<v Speaker 2>In the nineteen nineties, the FBI's National Center for the

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<v Speaker 2>Analysis of Violent Crime developed a report in which they

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<v Speaker 2>addressed the telltale signs a firefighter was intentionally setting fires.

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<v Speaker 2>One hallmark was a large increase of fires within that

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<v Speaker 2>fire department's area of operation. Their research also showed quote

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<v Speaker 2>that the number one motive was excitement, especially among young

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<v Speaker 2>firefighters who were eager to put their training to practical

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<v Speaker 2>use and to be seen as heroes to fellow firefighters

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<v Speaker 2>and the community they serve. Their research also corroborated that

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<v Speaker 2>the firefighter arsonist is likely to have worked with the

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<v Speaker 2>fire department for only a short time they reported less

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<v Speaker 2>than three years. Their report also described that most of

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<v Speaker 2>and firefighter arsenists follow a pattern. They begin by setting

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<v Speaker 2>small fires like dumpster fires or brush fires. The FBI

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<v Speaker 2>describes these as nuisance fires. The firefighter arsenist would then

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<v Speaker 2>advance to more serious cases, such as igniting vehicles or buildings.

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<v Speaker 1>The National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime concluded

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<v Speaker 1>that the desire to be respected by their peers and

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<v Speaker 1>to show how proficient they are in their trade is

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<v Speaker 1>what often leads a firefighter to become an arsonist. So

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about how the hero complex comes into play here.

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<v Speaker 1>Also called arson do to vanity. Problems can develop when

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<v Speaker 1>a firefighter seeks praise or attention from their community for

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<v Speaker 1>doing their job. Some profiles of firefighter arsenists call them

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<v Speaker 1>vanity fire setters and describe them as often being young

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<v Speaker 1>and inexperienced, with an inclination toward drama or a need

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<v Speaker 1>for an adrenaline rush. According to doctor k Our Fineman,

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<v Speaker 1>a forensic and clinical psychologist, volunteer firefighters who commit arson

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<v Speaker 1>often see themselves as outsiders and they have an intense

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<v Speaker 1>need for approval. Many act alone in their crimes, but

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<v Speaker 1>experts believe that when firefighter arson is a group effort,

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<v Speaker 1>it's often a result or a consequence of young firefighters

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<v Speaker 1>intense feelings of camaraderie and fraternity with those in their firehouse,

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<v Speaker 1>says Fineman. Similarly to the report by the National Center

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<v Speaker 1>for the Analysis of Violent Crime, quote they want so

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<v Speaker 1>very much to prove themselves and be seen not just

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<v Speaker 1>as a hero, but as someone who is doing the

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<v Speaker 1>work properly. A two thousand and three report by the

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<v Speaker 1>United States Fire Administration echoes this and states that quote

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<v Speaker 1>their main reason for lighting the fire is so they

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<v Speaker 1>can appear as a hero. Either by being the first

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<v Speaker 1>to spot the flames or by rescuing people and saving property.

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<v Speaker 2>In addition to the hero complex factor in firefighter arson cases,

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<v Speaker 2>boredom is also a factor, as fire departments in rural

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<v Speaker 2>towns and suburbs may not have many opportunities to roll

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<v Speaker 2>out their equipment. Fires just may not occur very frequently

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<v Speaker 2>in their region. Former arson investigator Nordskog has said of

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<v Speaker 2>the phenomenon, quote, it's not uncommon for a firefighter to

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<v Speaker 2>not see a fire for months at a time, and

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<v Speaker 2>boredom sets in. Stephen wolutis, a lawyer in Comac, New York,

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<v Speaker 2>has represented firefighter arsonists in court and agrees competitiveness can

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<v Speaker 2>drive a young firefighter. He has said, quote, firefighters would

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<v Speaker 2>go to many tournaments with other fire departments, and some

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<v Speaker 2>were ribbed at how inactive their fire department was, how

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't have a lot of fires.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's the hero complex, then there's the desire for excitement,

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<v Speaker 1>and then there's also the problem of family tradition. Nordskog,

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<v Speaker 1>whose work includes improving the profile of firefighter arsenists, has

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<v Speaker 1>explained that family legacy, which is common in protective services

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<v Speaker 1>works such as firefighting and law enforcement can also sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>be a factor. He stated, quote, some of these guys

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<v Speaker 1>are trying to live up to the war stories of

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<v Speaker 1>their parents or uncles who may have been in the

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<v Speaker 1>fire service in the past.

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel Aber is a retired agent who worked with the

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<v Speaker 2>Department of Justices Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

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<v Speaker 2>as an arsen and explosives investigator for many of his

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<v Speaker 2>twenty seven years in law enforcement. Of the motivations affecting

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<v Speaker 2>firefighter arsonists, he like other current experts, agrees that most

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<v Speaker 2>firefighters who engage in arson do so out of boredom

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<v Speaker 2>or competitiveness, but he also adds that some, under a

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<v Speaker 2>misguided guys believe that it will help with a fire

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<v Speaker 2>unit's training efforts. Lighting fires illegally is a felony, whether

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<v Speaker 2>the arsonist is a firefighter or not. Aber has stated

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<v Speaker 2>to potential and active firefighter arsonists quote, understand this, This

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<v Speaker 2>is not a game. It is a crime. You will

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<v Speaker 2>be caught at some point and no mercy will come

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<v Speaker 2>your way.

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<v Speaker 1>On that severe statement, We're going to take a break

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<v Speaker 1>for a word from our sponsor, and when we return

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<v Speaker 1>we'll discuss how and why the profile that's been created

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<v Speaker 1>isn't really working, and how firehouses have historically dealt with

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<v Speaker 1>in house firefighter arsenists.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to criminalia. We've talked about what experts have

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<v Speaker 2>learned about the problem, so now let's talk about how

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<v Speaker 2>they're trying to fix it.

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<v Speaker 1>Firefighters who intentionally light illegal fires are a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a contradiction researchers, universities, the FBI. Many people have been

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<v Speaker 1>studying them for years to try to better understand them.

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<v Speaker 1>Retired FBI arson analyst Timothy Huff has written about the

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<v Speaker 1>importance of candidates screening and background checks and a need

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<v Speaker 1>for increased awareness and action among firehouses to proactively face

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<v Speaker 1>this problem. Experts have tried for years to use available

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<v Speaker 1>research to identify who's an arson risk before they become

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<v Speaker 1>a firefighter, but with little luck. Retired arson and explosives

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<v Speaker 1>investigator A Bear has said of the phenomenon, quote, it

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<v Speaker 1>happens more than you think. Really, it goes on way

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<v Speaker 1>more than anyone knows. We don't know about most of.

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<v Speaker 2>Them, Describing what it's like hiring and managing firefighters. Albert Lampy,

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<v Speaker 2>former chief of the Edison Division of Fire in New

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<v Speaker 2>Jersey has explained that the law allowed him as chief

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<v Speaker 2>to really scrutinize his paid employees much more rigorously than

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<v Speaker 2>volunteer firefighters and candidates. Said Lampy quote, it's hard to

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<v Speaker 2>deny someone when they want to be a volunteer, but

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<v Speaker 2>you can't require a volunteer to submit to psychological testing

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<v Speaker 2>and other screening procedures. Volunteer applicants, just like professional applicants,

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<v Speaker 2>must pass the Candidate Physical Ability Test, which assesses your

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<v Speaker 2>ability to physically do the job. Candidates also must pass

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<v Speaker 2>a written test designed to evaluate basically two things. A

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<v Speaker 2>person's cognitive abilities, such as your ability to read and

0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.320
<v Speaker 2>understand policies and directives and tactical plans, and it also

0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.520
<v Speaker 2>evaluates your non cognitive traits, such as whether or not

0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.920
<v Speaker 2>you're a team player, but there's little emphasis placed on

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 2>psychological evaluation.

0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Today, the latest research is being used to educate fire

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.080
<v Speaker 1>departments about the arson phenomenon and how to end what

0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 1>some experts call a culture of inside firehouses. According to

0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.880
<v Speaker 1>a bear quote, there's a mentality among firefighters to protect

0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.680
<v Speaker 1>your own and though it's not something that's spoken about,

0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.200
<v Speaker 1>some fire units quietly push out firefighters when they suspect

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.040
<v Speaker 1>them of arson. Some units historically have chosen to deal

0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:24.000
<v Speaker 1>with the problem internally. But here's the thing. Many incidents

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.760
<v Speaker 1>are unreported, and that is how it's been for a

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:32.120
<v Speaker 1>long time. Nordskog, who tracks serial arson cases, has stated

0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 1>that quote most law enforcement records don't routinely differentiate between

0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>arsenists who are firefighters and those who are not, and

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.320
<v Speaker 1>of those known to be firefighter arsenists, he explains, quote,

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 1>fire agencies historically hide these states. Heinz Aldrich of the

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.200
<v Speaker 1>unhealthy culture. Quote. This has long been a taboo topic

0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 1>in the fire service.

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Now retired New Hampshire State Fire Marshal Bill Degnan has

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.720
<v Speaker 2>stated quote, I feel very strongly that an arsonist needs

0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 2>to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.760
<v Speaker 2>He's also said that he has quote no patience and

0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.199
<v Speaker 2>zero compassion for arson and personally believes the crime is

0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:17.000
<v Speaker 2>more egregious when it's committed by a firefighter. According to Degnant, quote,

0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.280
<v Speaker 2>they're in a position of public trust. Whether they're full

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.639
<v Speaker 2>time paid firefighters or their volunteers, they should all be

0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:25.119
<v Speaker 2>held to the same standard.

0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.320
<v Speaker 1>Some experts have recommended national databases or tracking systems to

0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:36.480
<v Speaker 1>be implemented, but without a comprehensive psychological evaluation for all

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:41.200
<v Speaker 1>firefighters during the onboarding and hiring process. Those who study

0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.439
<v Speaker 1>the phenomenon believe fire units will continue to fail to

0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 1>eliminate any in every candidate who is likely to be

0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.520
<v Speaker 1>or become an arsonist. In some jurisdictions. In some states

0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:57.000
<v Speaker 1>in the US, firefighter arsen task forces have been established,

0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.359
<v Speaker 1>and they focus on training and education as well as

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.560
<v Speaker 1>things like how to conduct an appropriate background check. Retired

0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 1>fire Commissioner David Fischler of the Suffolk County Department of Fire,

0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Rescue and Emergency Services has said, quote, there are people

0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.400
<v Speaker 1>who are bad apples in any profession. Anytime we can

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.399
<v Speaker 1>stop just one person, it's a success.

0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.080
<v Speaker 2>So I hear, we have a tasty drink to go

0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:29.760
<v Speaker 2>along with this.

0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.720
<v Speaker 1>Listen, it's very delicious. It is not a hot thing.

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.000
<v Speaker 1>It has no holapana or smoke note at all. But

0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.119
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to think of something because this is

0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.480
<v Speaker 1>one of those things that for me and I suspect

0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of other people is a scary topic. Yes,

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.280
<v Speaker 1>the idea that the people that are sworn to protect

0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.880
<v Speaker 1>you are in fact not going to do that is upsetting.

0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.440
<v Speaker 1>So I thought, maybe while we deal with these issues,

0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.439
<v Speaker 1>we have a drink that is comforting and delicious. I

0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.960
<v Speaker 1>was thinking about that phrase regarding bad apples. I will

0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.960
<v Speaker 1>say this. I'm calling it the bad Apple, but like,

0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.520
<v Speaker 1>that's not a very original name for a drink, and

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 1>I know that there are a lot of drinks called

0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.280
<v Speaker 1>bad apple. But this is our version, and it starts

0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.359
<v Speaker 1>with things we have not put in a drink before.

0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.119
<v Speaker 1>And you're gonna be like, Holly, you might have lost

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.560
<v Speaker 1>it finally, or maybe you've always thought I had, but

0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:30.840
<v Speaker 1>this does something really lovely. So you're actually gonna start

0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.280
<v Speaker 1>with a half a cup of apple sauce, throw that

0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.680
<v Speaker 1>in your shaking tin, and then add in two ounces

0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.159
<v Speaker 1>of vodka and let that sit while you're getting your

0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.399
<v Speaker 1>other stuff together. Give it a stir. You can also,

0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.320
<v Speaker 1>if you want to, like kick it up a little

0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.760
<v Speaker 1>and make it fen sy, add a couple of drops

0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.159
<v Speaker 1>of bitters. I have a bitter called Golden Bitters, and

0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.280
<v Speaker 1>it's got like cardamom and like very warm but soft

0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 1>notes to it. So if you want to, you can

0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.960
<v Speaker 1>literally just add cardamom or something from your spice rack

0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.800
<v Speaker 1>or your spice cabinet and that works too, So again,

0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.199
<v Speaker 1>let that all sit together after a good stir, and

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>then you will add to your shaking tin a half

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.560
<v Speaker 1>ounce of lemon juice, a half ounce of demarar syrup,

0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.880
<v Speaker 1>and a half ounce of vanilla liqure, and then you'll

0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 1>put your ice in and you'll I would do a

0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.480
<v Speaker 1>dry shake without ice first because that apple sauce does

0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.120
<v Speaker 1>some things to the viscosity. And then I would add

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.080
<v Speaker 1>your ice and shake it so you get it nice

0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 1>and cold. And then you're obviously gonna have to double

0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.760
<v Speaker 1>strain this. You don't want a slushy. You want something

0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:44.399
<v Speaker 1>almost It takes on the notes of the apple sauce

0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.040
<v Speaker 1>and some of the thickness from it, but it's still

0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:50.560
<v Speaker 1>very liquid. It's not it's not putting ye inconsistency or

0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.640
<v Speaker 1>heavy like that. So you're gonna double strain it, strain

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 1>it basically over a mess strainer. I had to let

0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.119
<v Speaker 1>mine sit for a few minutes and strain itself because

0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.280
<v Speaker 1>that apple sauce does trap a lot of moisture. But

0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.200
<v Speaker 1>then what you have do that over ice. It's such

0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.840
<v Speaker 1>a beautiful drink because you get a lot of that

0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.359
<v Speaker 1>beautiful apple flavor. That warm note if you've added the

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.560
<v Speaker 1>bitters or the cardamom does a really nice thing, and

0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.480
<v Speaker 1>the vanilla finish like it's not too sweet. I didn't

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.119
<v Speaker 1>mention I would use unsweetened apple sauce. You literally just

0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:24.960
<v Speaker 1>want pure ead apple involved. You don't want extra sugars

0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.919
<v Speaker 1>in there. It's like a grown up version of an

0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:31.080
<v Speaker 1>apple e drink that's not too candy like. It's like

0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.560
<v Speaker 1>the flavor of apple without all the sugar, and that's

0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.960
<v Speaker 1>really nice. So that is the bad apple. Here is

0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.240
<v Speaker 1>how you do the mock tanpe. Oh yeah, I have

0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:41.880
<v Speaker 1>been saying that I'm trying to ease off of things

0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 1>like cinnamon that are very obvious things, but this might

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:46.960
<v Speaker 1>be one where you can't avoid it. Because I would

0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.479
<v Speaker 1>start with if your local store has like an apple

0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.680
<v Speaker 1>tea that's great ours, which is just like a big

0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.919
<v Speaker 1>chain grocery store, they only had an option that was

0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.320
<v Speaker 1>apple with cinnamon in it, and that's fine, but just

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.200
<v Speaker 1>know and in that case you are you can use

0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.600
<v Speaker 1>apple tea in lieu of that vodka. If you really

0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.600
<v Speaker 1>only want regular apple sauce flavor, you can actually use

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 1>water here and it's gonna be fine and then in

0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.560
<v Speaker 1>lieu of vanilla liqueur, you're going to use vanilla syrup.

0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.879
<v Speaker 1>But if you do that, you might want to dial

0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.399
<v Speaker 1>back on the demurra a little bit. We already have

0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:24.280
<v Speaker 1>only a half ounce, but you could pull it back

0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.880
<v Speaker 1>to a quarter ounce to soften up the sweetness. Otherwise

0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 1>the bad apple. It will make you feel sort of comforted,

0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.359
<v Speaker 1>even though you know that they're firefighter arsonists. Again, I

0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 1>feel compelled to note that it's a small, small percentage.

0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Remember we set one hundred people in North America out

0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:49.040
<v Speaker 2>of the one point two million in the United States.

0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:50.520
<v Speaker 2>This is a small.

0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Number, but small. But if you find that unsettling, of

0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 1>course it is. It's unsettling that anybody wants to see

0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.840
<v Speaker 1>these kinds of things. Have a little drink, whether it's

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:03.439
<v Speaker 1>alcoholic or not, and just comfort yourself. We hope that

0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:06.520
<v Speaker 1>you have enjoyed this time with us, even if it

0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.600
<v Speaker 1>is unsettling information, and we will be right back here

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.960
<v Speaker 1>again next week with another story of arsen and I

0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Know that a Little drinky poop. Criminalia is a production

0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.440
<v Speaker 1>of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.800
<v Speaker 1>from Shondaland Audio, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:35.880
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.