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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: I Never told you production of I High Radio. So

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Speaker 1: we are back, okay, Part two of our book club

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Speaker 1: on Angela Chin's book Ace, What a Sexuality Reveals about desire, society,

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Speaker 1: and the meaning of sex, which came out pretty recently,

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Speaker 1: came out in twenty twenty, and we just got to

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Speaker 1: talking and chatting because we there's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: to cover, and so yes, this is a two parter. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and as it says in our title, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of implications that go beyond just being Ace. But what

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Speaker 1: this reveals for all of society, that's a lot. It is.

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Speaker 1: It is a lot, it's a lot to untangle. If

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Speaker 1: you haven't listened to part one yet, I think you'll

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Speaker 1: be fine to start with this one. But we cover

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Speaker 1: a lot of ground in that one as well, so

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Speaker 1: go back and check it out. For this one, we're

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Speaker 1: really we're really going to hit the ground running because

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Speaker 1: this was something that really stood out to me. We

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Speaker 1: ended part one talking about this is complicated, convoluted mess

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Speaker 1: around women and sex when it comes to feminism and

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Speaker 1: being liberated and being empowered, and how really messy that

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Speaker 1: can get And this next section really relates to that,

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Speaker 1: which is this whole idea that Chen goes into that

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Speaker 1: being a sexual, especially a woman being a sexual is

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Speaker 1: a whole made up idea and it was made up

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Speaker 1: by misogynistic men to sexually repress women, which is interesting

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Speaker 1: given the are very stereotypical and harmful understanding that men

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Speaker 1: always want sex, and I mean, I guess the idea

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Speaker 1: would be you only have sex with them that one man, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but okay, here is a quote. Being

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Speaker 1: asexual means you can't have passion. He'd say, if you

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Speaker 1: don't have passion, you can't write. Therefore, if you don't

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Speaker 1: have sex, you can't be a writer. Identifying as ace

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Speaker 1: means you're brainwashed by the patriarchy and you need to

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Speaker 1: work harder to fight that. Otherwise you can't be a

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Speaker 1: feminist and you certainly can't be an artist. So this

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Speaker 1: was a story. Chan interviews a lot of people for

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Speaker 1: this book, and this was a story someone told her

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Speaker 1: about their experience meeting an older male writer and this

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Speaker 1: person wanted to be a writer as well, and his

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Speaker 1: reaction to their insistence that they were asexual and that

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Speaker 1: they wanted an asexual character in the books that they

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Speaker 1: were writing. Yeah, can I say the section that I

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Speaker 1: almost through everything because immediately I'm like, he's grooming Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, he's grooming her and gaslighting her. What the

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Speaker 1: But also can we also put in that this dude

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Speaker 1: was a friend of her father's. Yeah, that connected her

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Speaker 1: to get a mentor so she can write, So he

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Speaker 1: was doing something nice the father. This dude who was

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Speaker 1: the friend of the father had a wife, had you know, children,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, she was a young teenager and

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Speaker 1: he was saying these things to her because he was

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Speaker 1: grooming her. Super gross, super gross. That was a whole

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Speaker 1: different conversation. I was like, because at the very beginning

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Speaker 1: when you hear the story of her talking about him

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Speaker 1: being like, well, I'll say, oh no, this is about

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Speaker 1: to go real bad. And it did, but it didn't

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Speaker 1: go real bad. But I'm just saying like, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know what this is leading to? We know right well,

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Speaker 1: And then when this person turned down his advances, he

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, that's it. I'm not helping you anymore.

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Speaker 1: And everything you've ever written as trash and go away right,

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Speaker 1: real real class act. But the idea here being yeah,

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Speaker 1: sex with him would liberate you that he wanted to

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Speaker 1: have sex with this young person. And then around in

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Speaker 1: that section as well, there was this idea of the

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Speaker 1: pressure of the one night stand and that it can

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Speaker 1: be very liberating and how a not small amount of

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Speaker 1: sexual people try something like that because they think, oh,

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Speaker 1: if i'd just do it, then maybe I can prove

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Speaker 1: to myself that I do want sex. And I am,

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Speaker 1: you know, in my mind empowered or liberated because that

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Speaker 1: has gotten all mixed up with sex. And I did

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Speaker 1: the same thing, and I remember I was it was

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Speaker 1: like jumping off a cliffers and I'm so scared, and

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Speaker 1: I it was just like, you have to just do it,

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Speaker 1: just do I want to be the type of person

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Speaker 1: that can do this and that will enjoy it. And

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Speaker 1: we like got out, we were, you know, almost all

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Speaker 1: of our clothes and then I just freaked out. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I can't do this and ran and left

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Speaker 1: the room. And I never saw that guy. So, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I had a similar experience, except I did have sex.

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Speaker 1: I was super drunk, and it wasn't because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get it over with. It was I was I

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Speaker 1: wanted because I was like twenty six, twenty four I

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Speaker 1: was older and so and I had leaned so hard

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Speaker 1: into being a virgin because you know, Jesus, and then realizing, wait,

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Speaker 1: what is happening. I don't know if I truly understand

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Speaker 1: any of this. And I did have a lot of

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Speaker 1: sexual desires, being very sexualized at a really young age.

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Speaker 1: I've always been sexual and that's kind of that connotation,

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Speaker 1: and we've not talked about it about those who have

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Speaker 1: been sexually abused being hyper sexualized throughout and I was

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Speaker 1: super high sexualized. But because again trauma and all of that,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then religion, and honestly, I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything negative and that it kept me safe.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of things that could have

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Speaker 1: gone through a lot of heartbreak and or really really

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Speaker 1: dangerous situations. Don't get me wrong, bad things still happen

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Speaker 1: to me, even in those moments, and I did some

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Speaker 1: quoty fingershell in those moments. But at twenty fourteen five,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I really do want to have sex. This

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Speaker 1: is something that I fantasized, and I like being touched

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Speaker 1: and all these things. I'm also really afraid of relationships

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Speaker 1: in general, because again, sex and romance is not something

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Speaker 1: that's a thing to me at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: because I'm so overly traumatized and I've used religion to

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Speaker 1: heal or cover that band you know, cover it up

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Speaker 1: with that religion band aid, which did not do anything

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Speaker 1: except for excuses for me specifically, And so I went

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Speaker 1: through that like, oh, I'm just I'm just gonna do it.

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Speaker 1: Poor dude, It's all I have to learn about that,

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Speaker 1: because it was sad, short, and I was like, what

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Speaker 1: is this not at all what I'd hoped for? Because

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Speaker 1: again it doesn't meet expectations. You're quite you know, misled

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Speaker 1: by me and you know, me thinking I'm gonna be

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Speaker 1: swept off my feet and it's gonna be the best experience. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was just talking to a girlfriend about this. I've

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Speaker 1: said about him than I do me. I will say

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Speaker 1: that in a weird context, like, Okay, he really was trying.

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Speaker 1: He was trying to make it special even though I'd

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Speaker 1: never met him before and that was our first date.

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Speaker 1: It was a one I said. I stopped talking to

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Speaker 1: him immediately after. Yeah, oh oh man, yeah yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That myth of the like perfect virgin sex is very damaging,

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of expectations that are way

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Speaker 1: too high and can never possibly be met, and that's

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Speaker 1: not good for either anybody right emotionally for us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the comedic versions, which is supposed to be all about laughing,

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Speaker 1: is the truer version forms for many of us. Who

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Speaker 1: has built this up and then you're just like I

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Speaker 1: guess too. Yeah, don't get me wrong. I've had a

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Speaker 1: few friends and like, nah, it was legit. Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: few friends who's like talking about how painful it was.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, yeah, Well I think that

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Speaker 1: I think there's a space for it to be especially

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Speaker 1: if you're with someone that you trust and that you

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Speaker 1: feel something for. I think there's a space for it

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Speaker 1: to not be great sex, but for it to be

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Speaker 1: really sweet and awkward, if that makes sense, because you're

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Speaker 1: both in it. You're both in it together, right, and

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Speaker 1: if you can like kind of you know, be open about,

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Speaker 1: oh this is sort of awkward. I think there's something

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Speaker 1: like that can great, that could be a good story

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Speaker 1: to tell later. Yes, kind of all learning. So here's

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Speaker 1: another group. I am what sexuality scholar Lisa down And

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Speaker 1: calls sex critical aware of both women's personal agency and

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Speaker 1: the continuing inequalities of society. It is possible to encourage

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Speaker 1: others to experiment while trusting them. If they say sex

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Speaker 1: doesn't do anything for them, someone shouldn't be fitted either

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Speaker 1: because their sex acts are very kinky, are because their

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Speaker 1: number of partners is very low. It is cost for

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Speaker 1: celebration whenever anyone is to the best of their ability,

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Speaker 1: making their own choices free from pressure, and also working

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Speaker 1: to change the social and political structures that will let

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Speaker 1: everyone else have that same sexual freedom and freedom of

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Speaker 1: other kinds too, which I like, really, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: just the level of just trusting that people know themselves

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Speaker 1: and accepting it and not trying to change people's minds.

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Speaker 1: And don't understand that level unless it's a therapeutic level. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is tricky, don't get me wrong. Or I've asked

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Speaker 1: these questions of myself of like, what if it's just

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Speaker 1: because I was raised in a religious environment and that's

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Speaker 1: why I don't like sex, Like I have these questions.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, but if it still if that is your reason,

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Speaker 1: that's okay, that's true. So that's you know, like it's

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Speaker 1: kind of that's the same thing again. You and I

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Speaker 1: are talking about, especially when we talk about trauma, especially like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there might be a reason you don't like sex, and

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Speaker 1: it's because trauma and it triggers. If it's not something

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Speaker 1: that you want, if that's not something I want, then

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Speaker 1: why are other people pushing us? Like if we feel

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Speaker 1: completely content and being where we are and understand that

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Speaker 1: some of these things make us uncomfortable because of ABC

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Speaker 1: and D, whether it's religious suppression or whether it's a

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Speaker 1: dramatic background, or whether it's because your body just don't

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Speaker 1: want it, right, then why not just let it be.

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Speaker 1: That's not something that it's not going to kill me

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Speaker 1: not to have sex. It's not going to kill them

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Speaker 1: not to have sex, like it doesn't. And if you

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Speaker 1: don't want children, that's on you as well, And that's fine.

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Speaker 1: If that's not the way you want to have children,

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Speaker 1: If you can't have children that way, it is what

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Speaker 1: it is. There's no reason for us to come in

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Speaker 1: and judge that, right, be empathetic to that and understanding

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Speaker 1: to that. Yes, right, I think that is one of

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Speaker 1: the most One of the things that really impacted me

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Speaker 1: the most reading this book is that very thing of like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, maybe you have been through some trauma,

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Speaker 1: and maybe there are a lot of reasons why you

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Speaker 1: don't want to have sex, But that doesn't mean you

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Speaker 1: can't identify as a sexual and that's fine. Like if

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Speaker 1: you if you don't want to have a sexually, you

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Speaker 1: don't have sex and that's fine. Right again, Yep, I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's just the whole little Let people be

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Speaker 1: if it's not causing you harm, let people be. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's also kind of going back to what we were

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Speaker 1: saying about how it gets mixed up with feminism because

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Speaker 1: I feel like I should want sex. I feel like,

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Speaker 1: like I that's the thing, So letting go of that

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Speaker 1: aspect of not trying to make myself into something i'm

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Speaker 1: not and not beating myself up up for for not

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Speaker 1: wanting it. But yeah, yeah, I can get people feel

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Speaker 1: like they can just comment on all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that they really shouldn't. Going back to my Mayo comparison,

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Speaker 1: my parents, my mother did not accept the fact that

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Speaker 1: I didn't like Mayo and try to sneak it in

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Speaker 1: to make me take that I would like Mayo, or

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Speaker 1: to be able to say, see, you're like, it's fine.

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Speaker 1: It was a weird flex, and I was like, why

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Speaker 1: are you doing this? I don't want it. I don't

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Speaker 1: like it. I've told you I don't like it. It

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Speaker 1: takes extra effort to put it on, then it does

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Speaker 1: not put it on. I don't understand. But she really

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Speaker 1: needed to know that she could change my mind about

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Speaker 1: a condiment that I still do not like to this day.

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Speaker 1: Y'all still don't like to this day. I have a

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Speaker 1: very big adversion of Mayo. Anyway, the Mayo podcast. It's

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Speaker 1: truemakes Mayo the podcast. So another quote from the books.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a sociology book. You can't go out

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Speaker 1: because she's done all the research for us just talking

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Speaker 1: about it. If the phrase compulsory sexuality sounds familiar, that's

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Speaker 1: because it borrows from the poet Adrian, which is concept

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Speaker 1: of compulsory heterosexuality. In her nineteen eighty essay Compulsory Heterosexuality

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Speaker 1: and Lesbian Existence, Rich argued that heterosexuality is not merely

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Speaker 1: a sexual orientation that happens to be the orientation of

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Speaker 1: most people. Heterosexuality is a political institution that is taught

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Speaker 1: in condition and re enforce. Compulsory heterosexuality is not the

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Speaker 1: belief that most people are heterosexual. It is a set

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Speaker 1: of assumptions and behaviors that only heterosexual love is innate,

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Speaker 1: that women need men as a social and economic protectors

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Speaker 1: that support the idea of heterosexuality as the default and

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Speaker 1: only option. It makes people believe that heterosexuality is so

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Speaker 1: widespread only because it is quote not even though as

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Speaker 1: rich rights. The failure to examine heterosexuality as an institution

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Speaker 1: is like failing to admit that the economic system called

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Speaker 1: capitalism or the cast system of racism is maintained by

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Speaker 1: variety of forces, including both physical violence and false consciousness.

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Speaker 1: Building off this idea, compulsory sexuality and ideas central to

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Speaker 1: a discourse is not the belief that most people want

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Speaker 1: sex and have sex and that sex can be pleasurable.

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Speaker 1: Compulsory sexuality is a set of assumptions and behaviors that

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Speaker 1: support the idea that every normal person is sexual, that

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Speaker 1: not wanting socially approved sex is unnatural and wrong, and

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Speaker 1: that people who don't care about sexuality are missing out

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Speaker 1: on an utterly necessary experience. Yeah, so this is kind

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Speaker 1: of going back to that assumption we've been talking about

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Speaker 1: this whole time, of kind of assumption that we see

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Speaker 1: pretty much everywhere in religion and media, in our law

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Speaker 1: that people want sex and they want heterosexual sex, and

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Speaker 1: that's anything that doesn't fit that is abnormal. And it's

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Speaker 1: something that a lot of people that Chin interviewed expressed.

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Speaker 1: And then there's like one in particular where she was

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Speaker 1: talking about the male asexual experience, and we do have

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Speaker 1: this idea that men and even gay men, because she

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Speaker 1: talked to people in that community as well, want a

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Speaker 1: lot of sex and if they don't, then something's wrong

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Speaker 1: with him. Until a lot of people who later figured

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Speaker 1: out that they were asexual, we're trying to fit into

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Speaker 1: that because they assumed it too. This sort of compulsory

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Speaker 1: heterosexuality idea of this is you were raised in that,

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Speaker 1: that's what you see, so you're trying to fit into

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Speaker 1: that as well, which I yeah, it was interesting. I'd

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Speaker 1: never heard of that concept before, but when I read it,

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Speaker 1: I was like, right, it does. And I get where

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Speaker 1: the ace feminists are like, I'm trying to I don't

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Speaker 1: want to bring down feminism and people are saying I

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Speaker 1: need to beat this and this and this. Because when

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Speaker 1: we talked about recently, the narrative that those randoms dudes

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Speaker 1: who were like, women don't like sex, women don't want sex,

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Speaker 1: women can't have an orgasm. That's only a man thing

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Speaker 1: that I can understand. Like that, that feels like you're

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Speaker 1: going into that narrative and you're like no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: but I am. I don't believe that that's just for

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Speaker 1: me personally. And unfortunately we have jerks like that who

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Speaker 1: uses this narrative as a way of saying, see, we

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Speaker 1: were right. All the other women are liars or hose

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Speaker 1: and said like, why why can't it just be? Like

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Speaker 1: can it don't be? Yeah, it's very very frustrating, And

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Speaker 1: I remember she changed in the book uses an example

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Speaker 1: of like a Fox News host guess that was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that just means she doesn't want to have sex. I

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Speaker 1: guess I'm a sexual two or whatever. It'll like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they could be and they just don't want to minute

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Speaker 1: It's true. It's yeah, yeah, it is so complicated, right

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Speaker 1: because again I might I'm all for it. I think people,

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Speaker 1: if that's what you want, then I want you to

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Speaker 1: have it, especially in a way that you're not judged.

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Speaker 1: And that's it does get tricky because I feel like

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Speaker 1: when I there's just so many political historically political ideas

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Speaker 1: and repression around women and sex and sexuality that when

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Speaker 1: it feels like everything I say as to come with

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Speaker 1: an asterisk, right, I mean again, it's kind of the

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Speaker 1: same when we talk about societal implications those who are

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Speaker 1: stay at home moms, women who want to stay at

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Speaker 1: home with their children, if they are feminists, I feel

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Speaker 1: like this is fighting against feminism and it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to be. Again, this is all about the choice, Like

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Speaker 1: I want the right to say what I want point blank.

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Speaker 1: And if that means yes, staying at home and being

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Speaker 1: the wife home and being there for my husband or

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Speaker 1: my partner, great, But if it's also the choice of like, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to children, I don't want all of that.

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Speaker 1: I want to do my thing and go out and

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Speaker 1: do my thing, you know, have a job in the

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Speaker 1: career satisfying to me that narrative. Both of those should

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Speaker 1: be welcome because it is that choice as long as

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Speaker 1: one is not being forced into something and or being

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Speaker 1: disproportionately placed in the responsibility level. Again, we've talked about

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Speaker 1: this whole like during the pandemic, especially women's uptick of

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Speaker 1: like so much work that includes you know, maintaining the

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Speaker 1: home and teaching the kids while the husbands are still

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Speaker 1: doing their nine to five and doing their thing. And again,

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Speaker 1: obviously it's a head or norrative relationship, but we saw

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Speaker 1: that as a complaint. It was a thing. They're like,

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Speaker 1: what the hell is happening? How did we backtrack when

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Speaker 1: for so long we finally got to the point of equal.

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Speaker 1: But again, that's the whole other thing that we've talked

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Speaker 1: about many times. But the overall thing is having the

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Speaker 1: ability to make that choice for ourselves. Point blank. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a shiss. Oh okay, here's another quote I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do include. One of the more obvious examples of

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Speaker 1: compulsory sexuality is the fear of a sexless population. It

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Speaker 1: is a great irony that, despite handwringing over loose morals,

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Speaker 1: Americans are having less sex than before. According to the

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Speaker 1: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, forty one percent of

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Speaker 1: high school students and twenty fifteen reported having had sex,

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Speaker 1: down from fifty four percent in nineteen ninety one. As

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Speaker 1: we are, American adults in the twenty tens they had

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Speaker 1: sex about nine fewer times per year than a quarter

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Speaker 1: century earlier. Such findings have prompted cover stories about sex recessions.

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Speaker 1: A recession, naturally is not a good thing, articles about

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Speaker 1: how the sex recession could lead to an economic recession,

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Speaker 1: and handwringing comments over how young people are doing it

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Speaker 1: wrong and are boring now. Economic worries could be to

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Speaker 1: blame or anxiety over unclear dating norms or the popularity

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Speaker 1: of Netflix and social media. Americans, according to some researchers,

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Speaker 1: have traded the pleasures of genital stimulation for the pleasure

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Speaker 1: of likes on social media and binge watching the Great

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Speaker 1: British Baking Show. In one Washington Post article about the

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Speaker 1: decline of sex, an eighteen year old is described as

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Speaker 1: sitting in front of quote, several screens simultaneously, a work project,

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Speaker 1: a YouTube clip, a video game for him. Abandoning this

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Speaker 1: setup for a date night or a one night stand

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Speaker 1: quote seems like a waste. Often implicit in this framing

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Speaker 1: are these questions, isn't it sad that people are having

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Speaker 1: less sex and that a one night stand now seems

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Speaker 1: like a waste? Isn't it pitiful to be playing video

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Speaker 1: games instead of feeling sexual pleasure? Shouldn't we be worried

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Speaker 1: that people don't care about sex anymore. For truly passionate people,

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Speaker 1: sex the pursuit the experience is always better than a movie,

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Speaker 1: a book, a game. The Loser of Today has three

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Speaker 1: computer screens and no sex drive. Yes, so I wanted

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Speaker 1: to put that in there for a lot of reasons.

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Speaker 1: But like, even reading that, I immediately was like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong is it? Echo, I, as someone who doesn't

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Speaker 1: want sex, had that like initial people don't want sex anymore?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, why? I mean, I don't know. It's just

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Speaker 1: so ingrained. It's so ingrained that that is what you

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Speaker 1: should want, and that is better than pretty much anything else, right,

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Speaker 1: I guess Again, We've talked about this in several ways

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot of connotations of this type of

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Speaker 1: oh no, what's happening, whether it's oh no, traditional families

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Speaker 1: and traditional relationships are going out the windows, so that

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Speaker 1: means this is disrupting it. So we're more worried about

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Speaker 1: tradition more so than actual sex. And we can look

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Speaker 1: at but like qan on Hold where they are like

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Speaker 1: have children, we need more white children, which was on

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Speaker 1: the pledge, and how that the society and feminism and

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Speaker 1: social media essentially we're trying to kill off children. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you know, there's a whole bigger conversation to this, obviously,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked a little bit about it, but there's

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Speaker 1: definitely this weirdness of like, yeah, we should have isn't

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Speaker 1: that better? Just have leusch what Like, we're running out

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Speaker 1: of resources at this point. So yeah, it's just so

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me how we can be like, young people

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Speaker 1: don't have sex, that's bad, and then they were like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, they're not having ducks. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: these are just boomers who feel guilty of their own

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Speaker 1: past and so they're like, oh, we need to keep

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Speaker 1: it up. You know that's possible. Also, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to I don't doubt that this is true.

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Speaker 1: I don't doubt that these members are true. But I

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Speaker 1: am curious in any kind of survey like that, there's

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Speaker 1: a part of me that's like, especially if you're asking

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Speaker 1: like high school students, I'm sure some people weren't being

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Speaker 1: entirely honest in either either direction, because you know, I

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Speaker 1: I myself, you know, would have hedged over what I

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Speaker 1: would have said because it seems like such a big

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Speaker 1: deal when you're at that age, right. Well, also you

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Speaker 1: have to remember, like again, social media does make a

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Speaker 1: big difference because a lot of the things that we

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Speaker 1: knew back then before social media. For me, I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a cell phone in high school yet and any

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Speaker 1: of that. We just all hung out, we called each other,

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Speaker 1: went down to uh walmart part of the lot, and

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Speaker 1: drove around not even played that is exactly. And then

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Speaker 1: there apparently because I wasn't one of the cool kids,

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Speaker 1: because I was just told this recently by an old

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Speaker 1: school friend. He was like, you know, remember that so

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Speaker 1: and so place where we would go party out in

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Speaker 1: the woods. And I was like, no, what, Like I existed,

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened. I was not cool. But they

405
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Speaker 1: were like, yeah, yes, so it and they called it

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Speaker 1: so and so farms or so and so land, and

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Speaker 1: you they would have bondfires and I wouldn't hang out

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Speaker 1: Friday and that's what they do. And everybody just showed up.

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Speaker 1: That's what they do. And now with the fact that

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Speaker 1: we have communications and able to like pick and choose

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Speaker 1: our groups instead of just going out and partying, now

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Speaker 1: that I didn't pick it choose obviously what they didn't

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Speaker 1: pick or choose me, but like it makes a difference,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of like there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: stupid things that would happen on that level. And that's change,

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Speaker 1: of course, not completely because it stupid things still happen now,

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Speaker 1: it's just more public and now on videos, which could

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Speaker 1: also be the other reason. It's like, oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be caught on video. Yeah yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I know it's kind of a joke and it's

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Speaker 1: much more complicated than this, but there is some validity

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Speaker 1: to that, right of Like, now if you have a phone,

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Speaker 1: there's just a whole whole world's open to you, right

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Speaker 1: whereas before that if you didn't have maybe a TV

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Speaker 1: or you're like in my family, we had the one

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Speaker 1: TV and only the three channels or four channels, And yeah,

427
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: you're much more likely to go and hang out with people.

428
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: And that does lend itself to sex more than you know,

429
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: staying at home on your phone does, right, which I

430
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: know that probably a lot of people that need jerk

431
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: reaction is it is better to hang out with people

432
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: in person. I personally think it's more complicated than that.

433
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: I see, you know, people do depend on technology. I

434
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: really high rate that might not be healthy. But also

435
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: like it's not necessarily like face value better one or

436
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: the other. There's more to it than just like this

437
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: one is obviously the better one, I think, right, Oh,

438
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 1: there's definitely trade off, like this is like, oh no,

439
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: this happened, but this happened. Which would you choose? And

440
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: of course, looking back, you're like, I don't know which

441
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: I would choose. For me, I would choose my own thing.

442
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, it was much better for me

443
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: to be isolated with a small group of friends instead

444
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: of trying to navigate social media where I would like

445
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: pour my feelings out and regret poor my feelings out.

446
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: Zengga ah, I'm so sad I can't find that, So

447
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: here's another quote. The result is that anyone who isn't

448
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: sexual enough are sexual in the right way, becomes lesser.

449
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: The label of a sexual should be value neutral. It

450
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: should indicate a little more than sexual orientation. Instead, asexual

451
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: implies a slew of other negative associations passionless, uptight, boring, robotic, cold, prude, frigid, lacking. Broken. These,

452
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: especially broken, are the words aces use again and again

453
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: to describe how we are perceived and made to feel. Yeah,

454
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: it is interesting how we have, especially when it comes

455
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: to women, but for sure women as well. It's just different.

456
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: We have just all of these ideas and assumptions around,

457
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: and a lot of them are contradictory around sex and

458
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: wanting sex and how much sex. But speaking of men,

459
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: there is a whole chapter on the male ACE experience,

460
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: so here's a quote about that. Surveys of the ACE

461
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: communities show that far more women identify as a sexual

462
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: than men, about sixty three percent verses eleven percent according

463
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 1: to the most recent numbers, likely in part because asexuality

464
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: is a greater challenge to male sexual stereotypes. Men are

465
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: taught they are not men and therefore not deserving and

466
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: respect our status unless they can sleep with as many

467
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: women as possible. Right, And like I said, she does

468
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: talk about the experience of gay men feeling kind of

469
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: a similar thing, like you're not really a gay man

470
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: unless you're having a lot of sex. But also I

471
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: thought this was interesting because she brought in the idea

472
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: of insults and entitlement and how a lot of male

473
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: aces have to be like, but I'm not that are

474
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: like those assumptions that oh, you're an in cell or

475
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: oh you're something right, like you're going to be violent

476
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: or angry, And again coming back to this idea of entitlement,

477
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 1: like we talked about marital rape in the last one,

478
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: with this idea that men and white men generally are

479
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: entitled to sex with not just women, but like pretty

480
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: white women, and that it just shows this is another

481
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: way where this narrative, this idea, this assumption that everyone

482
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: wants sex and that people are entitled to sex, are

483
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: certain groups are entitled to sex. It's so damaging and

484
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: dangerous and violent. And we've talked about that before for sure,

485
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: the violence that has resulted from that, right, I hadn't

486
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: really thought about that. I've kind of mail aces having

487
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: that fend that off, right, I mean, that's definitely the

488
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: conversation is if you are ace, does that make you

489
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: effeminate because you're not. Again, if we're looking at sexist power,

490
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: which is often the conversation, then you have none. So

491
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: therefore you're not a true man quote unquote. And that's

492
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: so every you know, red blooded man's right, that's the

493
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: way their body is that they have no control. We

494
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: know this narrative, We've heard this narrative. This is the

495
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: excuse that we get for right for violence, as we

496
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: talked about before, and what does it look like for

497
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: a guy to be like, no, really, I don't care,

498
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: I don't want it, I don't I know it. And

499
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: I think she did a really great job. And when

500
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: she brought in the interview with the other man who

501
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: was talking about the facts that in his marriage, he

502
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: just did it because it was assumed he needed to

503
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: do it, and it wasn't because he wanted to, but

504
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: because it was I'm a man, I'm in a relationship.

505
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: I got to initiate sex and it was more of

506
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: a routine more than anything else. And then when his

507
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: partner was like, no, no no, no, I'm good, he was like, oh, really,

508
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: me too. I guess oh yeah, I am, I'm good.

509
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: I'm good, And to really have to retrain himself because

510
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: for men, as they grow older, as they grow up,

511
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: they are taught typically all the time, not all men,

512
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: I know, whatever, but is that this is your duty

513
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: as a man, this is who you are as a man.

514
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: And that same narrative of men think about sex more

515
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: than da da dada, how many times a day, and

516
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: that's all they think about, and that's all they see

517
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: in women or their partners sex, sex, sex, success in

518
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: the store, worry and then if you're not, then you're

519
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: not normal. You're not a very rile man of the world.

520
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: And that conversation is how harmful it is. And so

521
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: many ACE men and this may be the things that

522
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: they're not. They're not ace, they're just not identifying because

523
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: they've gotten into a routine to show off their manliness,

524
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: which is sad and honestly, I had a way back,

525
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: not my personal situation, where I'm looking at a couple

526
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 1: that did not work and she was really really frustrated

527
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: because she wanted sex and she wanted to have children.

528
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: He never wanted to touch her, and it got to

529
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: a point that it got volatile and it just there

530
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: was so much miscommunication and breakdown. And don't get me wrong,

531
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: there other things wrong. It's relationship. But my first I

532
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: was like, he may be a sexual and instead of

533
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: coming to terms with being that way, he's blaming it

534
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: on her and getting and lashing out and angry because

535
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: he can't. He's been told for so long, right, this

536
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: toxic idea of masculine that not doing so and admitting it,

537
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: then he is not a man. And therefore he can't

538
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: be head of household. In Yes, there's a lot of

539
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: religious stigma to that, and on top of that, because

540
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: he's so angry and unwilling to talk about it, he's

541
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: completely lashing out and blaming her for everything else and

542
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: making it her fault and she's believing it. There's so

543
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: many things to that, and that's like, oh Jesus, this

544
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: is what could happen if we're not honest with ourselves.

545
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: And that's probably a bigger portion of those numbers. I

546
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: would say, yeah, and that is It's another thing that

547
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: she talks about in this book that I really connected

548
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: with because I've also felt like I want to be

549
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: desired and I want to be like sexually desired, even

550
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: though I don't want sex, and like I want people

551
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: will say, like, well, why do you dress so you know,

552
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: sexily or whatever. I'm not necessarily talking about me in

553
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: this case, but like that's something that will come up

554
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: with a sexual people. Why do you do that if

555
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: you don't have sex? Because it is powerful and like

556
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: something that you might want, Like it feels good to

557
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: be sexually desired, but it is also painful. I can

558
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: totally understand of like if I'm not feeling that way

559
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: for in a relationship with somebody, and I'm not feeling

560
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: that way about them, just because I don't generally feel

561
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: that way, it can be hard not to take that

562
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: very personally. I'm like, oh, well, then something's wrong with me.

563
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: I'm not desirable or I'm not physically attractive or something

564
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: like that, and that you know, it sucks because it's

565
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: not necessarily the case, but it's just right how it works.

566
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: For again, you're not dressing for someone and you're not

567
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: going to hide someone, so it's not and you shouldn't

568
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: have to. It could be just for you. Point blank.

569
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: Looking nice and feeling good about yourself is not a

570
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: bad thing. Wanting to be wanted, it's not a bad thing.

571
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 1: I feel like that goes in everything. Once again, for myself,

572
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: I have this fear that no one likes me and

573
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: I'm not likable and I'm very much like people just

574
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: like the outside me, and then getting to know me

575
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: that really, oh, it's tiresome, and that's understandable to extend

576
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: to that point that I'm like, yeah, I want to

577
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: feel included and loved and I don't want to be

578
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: left out. And there's so much of that because for

579
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: so long, for my own trauma, and I'm sure I'm

580
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: going to come to this for an happy hour and

581
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: or on Monday, Mini, my own trauma meant I was unwanted,

582
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: point blank. I was just an afterthought and I'm here

583
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: and people don't actually want me, like that's as an orphan.

584
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: And I say that in the very open term that

585
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: I was. That is absolutely I was tossed about. I

586
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: was seen as unwanted. And then even in my family,

587
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: as much as they love me, they do, I was

588
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: always uthered and it is and it is, and it's

589
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: kind of that I'm forty years old and still dealing

590
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: with that because of situations like this. But wanting to

591
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: be truly wanted, if you truly believe it, that is

592
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: human nature. And unfortunately that's also what society has told us,

593
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: that if you are avowed, you you will be seen. Yeah,

594
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: and that's the end of that story, unfortunately. And we

595
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: have to figure out for ourselves how to change our

596
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: own interpretation, which sucks, Yes it does. And she keeps

597
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: writing it is a failure of society. If anyone needs

598
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: to say I have a partner to turn someone down

599
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: and it's a failure of society if anyone needs to

600
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: invoke a sexual orientation to avoid unwanted sex, because saying

601
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: no doesn't do the job. Yeah. Yeah, And this was

602
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: kind of a culmination of all of these things we've

603
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: been talking about of you know, people questioning your sexuality

604
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: when you say it and being like, oh, that just

605
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: means you don't want to have sex with me, and

606
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: taking it really personally or whatever. It is, like we

607
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: should live at a place, as we've been saying, where

608
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: for whatever the reason no is, that's it. I don't

609
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: have to explain it to you. That's just the end.

610
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: And also again this is that same conversation of hearing

611
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: and feeling rejected and taking that personally. Yeah, we have

612
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: to let that go, like this is not a rejection,

613
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: it's just where I am today, And if I don't

614
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: want to do this, I shouldn't have to feel obligated

615
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: to make you feel better, so violating my own sense

616
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: of self in order to make you feel comfortable. And

617
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: that's that whole thing of Yeah, we've gotten to this

618
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: point that that's more acceptable. Then we say that as

619
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: being nice and kind actuality is harmful for us, So

620
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: is it really nice and kind, or have we continue

621
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: to feed into the stigma that no is bad, right right, right, right,

622
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: Here is another quote. Life is a continuous process of

623
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: unlearning for minorities and anyone with less power. These groups, women,

624
00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,959
Speaker 1: people of color, and in the next chapter, disabled people

625
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: can find it very difficult to claim asexuality because it

626
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: looks so much like the product of sexism, racism, ableism,

627
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: and other forms of violence. The legacy of this violence

628
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: is that those who belong to a group that has

629
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: been controlled must do extra work to figure out the

630
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: extent to which we are still being controlled, which is

631
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: a lot of what we've been talking about, right, And

632
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: she continues on when it comes to race, so many

633
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: different complicated threads keep the ACE community white. And I

634
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: found this very interesting, by the way, so I'm really

635
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: glad we're getting into this. Asexuality, she says, has been

636
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: idealized and it has been denied. Both are problematic. Asexuality

637
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: is tied to whiteness because white people and especially white women,

638
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: are often assumed to be sexually quote pure, whereas black

639
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: and Latin X people are often considered hyper sexual. And

640
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: I would put Asian people there in there as well.

641
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: And these racialized sexual stereotypes are a form of control themselves.

642
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: At the same time, asexuality can also look suspiciously similar

643
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: to racial tropes like the mammy or the an adult,

644
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: which again keeps people of color away. So yeah, I

645
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: did find this interesting because she is a woman of

646
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 1: Asian scent. When she talks, she didn't include Asian people

647
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: in the hyper sexualize, but I'm like, there's a lot,

648
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: like that's the whole Asian fetish level, which includes for

649
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: some like not necessarily all of anime, but a lot

650
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: of anime got twisted into very hyper sexualized Asian women,

651
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: like in general, whether it's torture born or any of that.

652
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: And again, I know this is different from anime, Like

653
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: I get it. There's a love and appreciation and it

654
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: is beautiful and I think it's wonderful. But when we're

655
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: talking about that negative stereotype and we see that hinte

656
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: type of anime porn, that's gets so like, oh a

657
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: skewed to the point that it's super on supernatural. The

658
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: level of Asian fetishism in there is like why why

659
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: was it necessary? Y'all? Who who in your group is

660
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: doing this? Stop it? But that is that characterization that's

661
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: overly sexualized as women once again kind of again the

662
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: Atlanta shooting, And I know this was written before all

663
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: of that happened, but I found that interesting that she

664
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: took that out and she didn't include that and put

665
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: them in the China doll category, which, by the way,

666
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: chime doll category I actually was also a sexualized manner

667
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: two and not the sweet I guess maybe this is

668
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: more of the Tiger Mom maybe level in that same

669
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: of like asexual. She's not hyper sexual, she's controlled and

670
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: prudish essentially and harsh, so I could see that way.

671
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: But I found that interesting that she left that differently,

672
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: and maybe it's because that's how she sees herself in this,

673
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: but anyway, that was just a sigement. Yeah, I mean

674
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: so many things were tie into this because this also

675
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: reminds me of the of the episodes we did on

676
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: virginity and like that whole idea of like that being

677
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: sexualized almost like the lack of sexual experience being sexualized,

678
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: which I have seen a lot actually now that I

679
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: think about it, and fan fiction too interesting. But this

680
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: is another thing going back to like those stereotypes that

681
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: were talking about of like always trying to fight them

682
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: and wondering why you're trying to fight them, Like why

683
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: do I want something? Is it me that actually wants it?

684
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: Or is it some kind of programming I've absorbed feeling

685
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: alienated from multiple communities because, as we said, Chen did

686
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: interview people from all types of communities, and yeah, this

687
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: is assumption that only white people can be aced because

688
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: it's already like not that well known, but even that

689
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: is pretty white. And so if you never hear about it,

690
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: like I said, I wouldn't have who knew, who knows

691
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: if I'd never heard about it on this show, what

692
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: would happen? That that was really fascinating And it's just

693
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: like another layer of questioning that you have to do

694
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: about who you are and how you identify and that

695
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 1: I mean that being said, I did want to briefly

696
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: touch on representation because that is important and that is

697
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: a way that people can see that this exists. And

698
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: one of the things people talked about, which is something

699
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: I talked about, was Todd from bo Jack Horsemen and people.

700
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: That's why when I learned that's when I was like,

701
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's me. So if you haven't seen it, Yeah,

702
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: there's a whole arc where Todd realizes he's a sexual

703
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: and he creates an app and he has a really supportive,

704
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: like semi girlfriend who's totally like okay, yeah, but I

705
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: want to read a quote about that cherish as he is,

706
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 1: Todd is not a perfect solution for one. Bo Jack

707
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 1: has ended, and so have Game of Thrones and Shadow Hunters.

708
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: There are now zero a sexual characters on primetime television,

709
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: according to the Glad Media Institute, which tracks queer characters

710
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: and television and started including a sexual characters a few

711
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, as we've discussed in recent Listener Mail episodes,

712
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: though there's more going on outside of prime time television.

713
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps, And here's another quote, there exists no perfect,

714
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: iron clad formula for understanding how sexuality and health interact,

715
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: but that hasn't prevented people from believing, in elegant but

716
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: incorrect statement, people who don't want sex are sick, and

717
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: people who are sick that mentally or physically disabled or

718
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: different in some way don't want sex. So this is

719
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there is so much in that chapter, and

720
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: this is something I really struggled with with, like the

721
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: eating disorder and trauma like thinking that something has to

722
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: be wrong, right, this means I'm not healthy, And I

723
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: was thinking about it in terms of we have a

724
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: running joke on the other podcast, I do savor everything

725
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: was an aphrodisiac at one point, and that's just pretty

726
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: telling that that's there's a long history of believing that

727
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: low sex drive means something is wrong with you and

728
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: something needs to be fixed. And I'm not saying that

729
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: that that's never an issue and it's never a problem,

730
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: but that I mean, you know, it's also a joke

731
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: too about how much money we put into Viagrid. It's

732
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: just so important and such a kind of understood thing that, yeah,

733
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: no sex drive means something is not right here, right,

734
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: and I do yeah. And also to come back to

735
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,959
Speaker 1: like those who are physically disabled talking about the fact

736
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: that they couldn't even recognize they were a sexual because

737
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: they just assumed it was their disability and or was

738
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: told that it was just their disability and actuality. No,

739
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: this is exactly who they are. And there are people

740
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: obviously who are sexual that are disabled, and this is

741
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: a nonsense to assume automatically, and which does happen a

742
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: lot that physical disable or automatically a sexual and that's

743
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: almost like a running joke, and it's like that's so

744
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: so harmful for both communities that why would you do

745
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 1: this and why would we assume this and why would

746
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: we allow this as a conversation. But yeah, the double

747
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: down on again, like can you like I cannot imagine

748
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: having to defend myself either way and be like why

749
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: would you have this as a narrative? Please stop it?

750
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: And such an ablest trope, right, yeah, Yeah, here's another

751
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: quit about that many aces were once aloes diagnosed with

752
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: a disorder and prescribed hormones off label because they learned

753
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: about asexuality and decided they were fine, As is a

754
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: change in perspective is all that is necessary to switch

755
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: from one to the other, from sick to well disordered,

756
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: two different. So that's more about like changing your mind

757
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: mindset in this case of like maybe nothing's wrong with

758
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: me and I don't need to be taking these things

759
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: to up my sex drive, which we are constantly bemarted with.

760
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 1: But there is a whole chapter about, yeah, the disabled

761
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: community in that double whammy, and yeah, we have a

762
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: quote from it actually, so she says you can be

763
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: asexual if your disability caused your a sexuality, and you

764
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: can be a sexual if sexual trauma caust you a sexuality,

765
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: and you can be asexual if you lose your sexual

766
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: desire later in life. The asexual community should be there

767
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: to help in all these cases. You don't have to

768
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: be part of the asexual community forever. But the lesson

769
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: that a happy life for Aces is possible regardless of

770
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: origin is one that is important, and one that includes you.

771
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: Two is for you even if you don't identify as ACE.

772
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: If asexuality is fine, so is every other form of

773
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: a low sexual desire or so called sexual dysfunction. Anyone

774
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 1: who has any form of desire or attraction or higher

775
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: than normal can still be okay better than okay, Yes, yes,

776
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: And then I wanted to include this one because this

777
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: was something that really fascinated me, So she wrote, Aces

778
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: know that sex is not always the dividing line that

779
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: determines whether relationship is romantic. We take another look and say,

780
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: maybe you're in love with your friend even though you're

781
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: not sexually attracted to her. Questions about the definition of

782
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: romantic love are the starting point for Aces to think

783
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: about love and romance in unexpected ways. From new explicit

784
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: categories beyond friendship and romance, to the opportunities legal, social,

785
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: and more of a world where romantic love is not

786
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: the type of love valued above all others. Asexuality destabilizes

787
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: the way people think about relationships, starting with the belief

788
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: that passionate bonds must always have sex at a route. Yes, yes, yes,

789
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 1: this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately

790
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: because I just feel very passionately about people, and I

791
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: care about people a lot, and I do. I feel

792
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 1: like I do thinking about it like this and going

793
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: really back to my for and questioning things and then

794
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: questioning my worldview and like what does relationship look like

795
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 1: and what kind of look like? It's been It's been

796
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: really liberating and interesting. I'm just somebody who's like a

797
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: nerd about that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think

798
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: that that's good. I would, I mean I would. Again,

799
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: this is not just very sexual people. I would advise

800
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,479
Speaker 1: everybody to ask yourself these questions and think about how

801
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 1: how things can look and why just asking being mindful

802
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: and asking questions about yourself. Right, and goes on to

803
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: say it's already taking for granted that sexual desire doesn't

804
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: need to include infatuation or caring. One night stands and

805
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: fuddy arrangements are all explicitly sexual and explicitly non romantic.

806
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: The opposite conclusion that for some infatuation never included never

807
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: turns into sexual desires, it's harder for people to accept,

808
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: at least in the West. Yeah, that's very true, and

809
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: on point that's true. I always think of how there's

810
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: like a word for friends with benefits, but there's not

811
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: really just friends, no, but I mean like being kind

812
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: of in a relation the benefits there is sex, right,

813
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: but what if the benefits wasn't sex, right, that's just friendship.

814
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: That's just that's the actual The other part is they added.

815
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: And then as we wrap up here, there so much

816
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: was covered in this book, and some of it it's

817
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: just frustrating how some of it feels so basic, like

818
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: I should have known this already, but just hearing reading

819
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: about it, I was like, oh yeah. But one thing

820
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: that she wrote about was like you can ask things

821
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: of others too, you can ask them to compromise, and

822
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: that should be just I should have known that already,

823
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: But that's something I still struggle with, and I just

824
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: always felt so much guilt not having sex, and it

825
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: was always about the other person, even though she also

826
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: writes about how in her relationship, a lot of times

827
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: she's the one that feels pressure to have sex and

828
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: the other person might be like, no, it's cool, but

829
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: she has that I guess because it's not like a

830
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: natural thing you're feeling, so you're kind of trying to

831
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: gauge what is quote unquote normal. I'm wanting to do

832
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: that for someone else, but yeah, I don't know why

833
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: that's like, yes, I can ask things of other people. Yeah,

834
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,959
Speaker 1: but she asked. That goes into like we talked about

835
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: desire for a little bit, different types of love and relationships,

836
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: constant questioning of why you want to have sex, and

837
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: what happens if you remove that question, if you remove

838
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: it as the dominant force in all relationships. She talks

839
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: about negotiation in the kink community Duty two have Sex,

840
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: which we also talked about, and breaking down consents and

841
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: rate and sex and all those ideas. Right. I really

842
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: did like how she talked about the king community, and

843
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: we talked about it in our episode. Brought in them

844
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: and the fact that they communicate and able to understand

845
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: each other, and how they've created a safe environment, and

846
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: that's why people who are ace really are love this

847
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: environment because you're able to open everything and nothing is taboo,

848
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: including lack of sex and lack of penetration and being

849
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: able to be as you were, let's say, like being

850
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: on the edge of something and enjoying just that without

851
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: the physical touch necessarily. And I found that really interesting

852
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: because yeah, we talked about that that even though things

853
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: can go awry, the king community has a better understanding

854
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: of consent and understanding that this is negotiable, This is

855
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: not negotiable, right, let's talk about it. And I thought

856
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, just having that reminder of like, yeah,

857
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: they were really right on and just what that looks

858
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: like beyond just the community and into personal relationships and

859
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 1: being able to actually walk and talk things through. But also, yeah,

860
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: there was a bit of a moment where I had

861
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: and I think it's because I have a background and

862
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: working with a sexual assault victims as well as you know,

863
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: you and I are both traumatized victims from past. When

864
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: she was talking about consent and the language between rape

865
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: and sex, and of course that narrative of that rapists

866
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: not sex essentially, and going back and forth and I

867
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: understand exactly what you're talking about in having because we

868
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: talked about it when we did the book club with

869
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: Come as you are about talking about the gray levels,

870
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: so having again a spectrum of consent and what that

871
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: could look like. And when she was talking about it, it

872
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: it was obviously for ace people to understand, or to

873
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: those who are trying to learn this about themselves to

874
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: understand that just because it's consent, it doesn't mean it's

875
00:48:55,520 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: consent true consent, and having those level to enthusiast stick

876
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: from Coors and one of the things that I wanted

877
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: to get back to and have this thing is like,

878
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: it's really really dangerous. This conversation is very, very important.

879
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 1: But when it comes to context of black and white law,

880
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: which is what they operated on, the guilty not guilty

881
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: verdict of law, how this can be really really misconstrued

882
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 1: in the court communities, and how it defends lawyer could

883
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: take this and run with it into saying, see, it

884
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: may not have been it was not rape because there

885
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: was some type of consent. And even to the point

886
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: that we've talked about the fact that we have to

887
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,959
Speaker 1: be black and white about it because they even take

888
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: the she went home with him passed out that was

889
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: consent in the story, which was what we know. It's like, no,

890
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: that's not true. If she couldn't say yes, then she

891
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: couldn't say no. So we need to understand that that

892
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: was not consent, period, but that there's a again she's

893
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: not talking about that, and we know this, I know

894
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: this beyond that, but giving to an example of like

895
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: how yes, I really wish there was a better way

896
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: to present this as a law enforcement or court level

897
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: of conversation. But because they do not, and they care

898
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: not to, Like that's the biggest stuff. This is not

899
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: something they care to change ever, because the question of

900
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: but what about him? But what about the perpetrator? He

901
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: has rights too, and forgetting that her rights had been

902
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: violated altogether in this conversation. And then yeah, even talking

903
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,439
Speaker 1: about the marital aspect of rape that I think even

904
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: in some courts, even in some states, they still haven't

905
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: put that in their books, and we need to talk

906
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: about that. And so if it's there, then it can

907
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: be presented and it will stand until it is seen

908
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: and over like have to go through all the constitutional levels,

909
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: which oftentimes doesn't happen. So there's so many things that

910
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: we can talk about this, but in that age of consent, Like, yes,

911
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: there are these levels, but with the reason the breaking

912
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: between the no consent this is rape, this is sex,

913
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: and I fall to the coarse consent means is rape.

914
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 1: Like I will say this to this day, like to

915
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: the point that just because they finally talked you into

916
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: giving it up doesn't mean you weren't right. You were.

917
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: It was it was a violation of your rights. They

918
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: held you essentially until you said yes, and that way

919
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 1: they can be you know, told they didn't fight me

920
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: type of right. So there's so many layers to this,

921
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: and yeah, absolutely it's a societal thing that we need

922
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: to look at. But what we know of what we're

923
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 1: seeing today in the court's judicial system, they really side

924
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: on the caution of the patriarchy, and unfortunately we have

925
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: to be that blunt. But maybe pushing that line and recognizing, hey,

926
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: if you're that person who has to push someone to

927
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: have sex, you're gross and you're violating that person like that,

928
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: that's the point that we need to get to and

929
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: that if at any point they change their mind, they

930
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 1: have that right and that's when you stop. So that

931
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: is that level of like at beyond consent. Enthusiastic consent

932
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: is a no, and it should be able to be prosecuted,

933
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: to be mad, to be honest, Yeah, it reminded me.

934
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: I mean, it reminded me of a lot of things.

935
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: It reminded me of the whole a zz and sorry

936
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: thing and how a lot of mostly women were like yes,

937
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 1: I hear that, and a lot of mostly men were

938
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: like what. Oh No. I had several women who told

939
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: me that They're like what, that's not she's complaining, she's

940
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: making victims look bad. Yeah, I mean I heard women

941
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: for sure, but it was mostly men in my in

942
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: my experience, but just kind of that level. And then

943
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: also especially when I was younger, there was definitely things

944
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean I am a sexual sorry speaking

945
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: for that experience, but there were definitely things I agreed

946
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 1: to because I thought I should want to agree to them,

947
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: and then later just felt violated, like felt greatly wrong

948
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: and like hurt. And it's hard to pinpoint what that

949
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: is because it's like, well, I you know, I said yes,

950
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,479
Speaker 1: and I thought I wanted it, but yeah, that being said,

951
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 1: I was like just taking away a love Like most

952
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: of this book, you know, ask questions, and there's too

953
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: many things that we're sort of relying on, assumptions on,

954
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: or have been kind of indoctrinated in. And obviously this

955
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 1: is a two partner, so there's a lot, a lot,

956
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: a lot we could discuss. I did want to end

957
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: on this quote. The goal of ACE liberation is simply

958
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: the goal of true sexual and romantic freedom for everyone.

959
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: A society that is welcoming to aces can never be

960
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: compatible with rape culture, with misogyny, racism, ableism, homophobia, and transphobia,

961
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: with current hierarchies of romance and friendship and contractual notions

962
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: of consent. It is a society that respects choices and

963
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: highlights the pleasure that can be found everywhere in our lives.

964
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 1: I believe that all of this is possible. Oh, I

965
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 1: hope so. And Yeah, to be clear, like we touched

966
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 1: on this, but she's done. There's definitely problems in a

967
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: sexual community, and there has been for since it's existed.

968
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: It's not different than any other community and that regard.

969
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, I thought that was a very helpful note

970
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,919
Speaker 1: to end on. Yeah. Yeah, again, I think she does

971
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: a great job in aligning this with Yeah, an implication

972
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: of what society looks like because that could be said

973
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: for all of these things, liberation for all people's in general,

974
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: and that conversation just like you know low key TLDR

975
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: and this thing, it's like, we should allow for choice

976
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: and freedom to be comfortable in our choice as long

977
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: as it's not harming others or yourself. I don't understand

978
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: this level, Like I if that there's something on you,

979
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: that's on you, if you feel a bias for some reason,

980
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 1: you need to pick through why you have this bias,

981
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: not tell them something that they are doing something wrong.

982
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: And that's either it's you want you don't think it's

983
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 1: feminist enough, or you think it's too ridiculous, like any

984
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: of those things. Is like, that's on you as the

985
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: individual who's having this opinion because you cannot accept and

986
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: can't move past this, right right, right, yep, ask more

987
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 1: questions always always, well, definitely check this book out if

988
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: you haven't already. As always, we would love to hear

989
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: from you book suggestions or otherwise. You can email us

990
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: at Stuffy DM mom stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

991
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at most of podcasts, or

992
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You thanks, it's

993
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: always too our super producer Christina, thank you, and thanks

994
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: to you for listening stuff I Never told Youse, production

995
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my iHeartRadio, visit

996
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,439
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997
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