1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. The death of a woman who 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: deputies and Goochlans say was mauled by her own dogs. 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: All I heard was, don't calm down here, it's bad. 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: There were various artists of clothing underclothing scattered about the 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: area not far from the body, and it's torn into 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: small pieces. There were matches of blood or out in 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: the cold in the the kennel. And I'm not saying 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: that the family was neglectful, and they were kept outside 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: and they previously had been inside dogs. A gorgeous twenty 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: two year old Virginia woman found dead, controversy swirling around 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: her death. The cause of death at first unbelievable. As 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: it turns out, police insist she was chewed to death 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: by her own pit bulls. Now, there was a public 15 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: outcry saying it couldn't possibly have been her beloved pit bulls. 16 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: And finally police release another fact which really shut down 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: the controversy. They said, oh, yes, it was because we 18 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: found one of the dogs chewing her rib bone. Yeah. 19 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: I think that pretty much settles it with me. Crime 20 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: Stories contributing reporter Scott Kimbler. Just got Morgan, forensics expert 21 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: and Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University, and joining me 22 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: special guest Doctor Gray Stafford, a zoologist, educator, animal trainer 23 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: currently at Grand Canyon University, and Gray and I Dr 24 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: Gray Stafford, excuse me, were brought together by none other 25 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: than Jodi Arius. Now I'll save that story for another time. Um, 26 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: the sex siren turned to kill her. I want to 27 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: go first though, to Scott Kimbler joining us, It's hard 28 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: for me to believe that pet dogs would turn on 29 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 1: this gorgeous young girl and and kill her as she's 30 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: out giving them a walk. Let's start Scott Kimbler with 31 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: how her body was found. Well, her body was found 32 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: near her father's home. She had been taking the dogs 33 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: for a walk and she'd been missing for some time 34 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: and as the father went looking for he found her 35 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: near a walking trail actually being guarded by the dogs, 36 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: and her body was a badly dismembered along this walking trail. 37 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: To just got Morgan joining us and Dr Gray Stafford. 38 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: What I have learned is that the Virginia woman Bethany 39 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: Lynn steve Is, just twenty two, was found dead in 40 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: a heavily wooded area. Her father is the one who 41 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: found her body. And when he found the body of 42 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: his daughter, and I can't imagine that horror of finding 43 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: your daughter's body. He said her body was being aggressively 44 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: guarded by her to pet pit bulls. Now there's a 45 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: gooch Lend County Sheriff James Agney, who says it was 46 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: one of the most horrific crime scenes, horrific scenes he 47 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: had ever seen at first. Dr Gray Stafford, who I 48 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: met first at Wildlife World Zoo I believe was the 49 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: name of it out in Arizona during the Jodi Arias trial. 50 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time together, Dr Gray Stafford 51 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: when you first heard that, and I treasure every minute. 52 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: And I've still got photos of you in my scrap 53 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: book with me and you and the twins and all 54 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: sorts of exotic animals. Exotic to me anyway, who grew 55 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: up on a dirt road outside of making Georgia. But Gray, 56 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: you know I would not let my children around in 57 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: any kind of an wild animal at all if you 58 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: hadn't been there, Okay, So I truly trust you when 59 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: you first heard this story about Bethany's body being found 60 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: in a wooded area being guarded by her dogs. I 61 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: thought someone else had killed her and they were the 62 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: ones guarding her. Yeah, I think that certainly makes for 63 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: a better story, right. But in this case, it appears 64 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: that the dogs were, you know, attacking her and consuming her. 65 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: And it certainly in writes a lot of questions as 66 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: to what the condition those dogs were in prior to 67 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: this very tragic event occurring. So what do we know 68 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: about that? Scott Kimbler, Crime Stories contributing investigative reporter. What 69 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,119 Speaker 1: condition was her body in? Her condition was? Her body 70 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: was in very bad condition. It was considered to be 71 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: a dismembered and the police describe it as a very 72 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: very gritly scene. Two just got Morgan forensics expert. How 73 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: can they determine that the dogs, her pet pit bulls 74 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: were responsible? It's it's very specific, isn't it, Nancy? What 75 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: we're looking for? Uh, we need to keep two terms 76 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: in mind. That term is anti mortem and post mortem. 77 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: The anti mortem injuries. One of the injuries they're describing, 78 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: they're actually describing as defensive injuries on her arms, which 79 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: will see in any number of different types of attacks. 80 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: Do they marry up with the injuries that could be 81 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: sustained by these types of animals. And then secondly, we 82 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: have to try to determine if these injuries are post mortem, 83 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: which means after death. And that's the key here. What 84 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: is um what's critical here is to determine what exactly 85 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: is the manner and cause of death. I think that 86 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people uh, you know, uh parenting what 87 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: uh what's the doctor said a moment ago about guarding 88 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: guarding the remains. That's that's that makes everybody feel all 89 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: warm and fuzzy as much as they can in a 90 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: circumstance like this. But the reality is are they protecting 91 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: a food source as opposed to their master. What we 92 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: know also is that police responded. The shriff responded to 93 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: an outcry of animal rights activists that said these dogs 94 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have killed her because she took such good 95 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: care of them. She was found dead in a quote 96 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: grizzly seen two days after she was lasting heading out 97 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: to walk her dogs near her gooch Land, Virginia home. 98 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: Friends insisted her beloved pets would never have killed her, 99 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: claiming the dogs would quote kill you with kisses and 100 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: suggesting instead that Bethany was murdered Dr Gray Stafford. How 101 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: can animal have such different personalities? I mean, the friends 102 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: were shocked, right that, you know, Nancy, that's a great question. 103 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: There's a phenomena called displaced aggression, and humans experience it, 104 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: and certainly animals do as well. And what I mean 105 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: by that is the animals might have been loving, carrying 106 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: pets most of the time, but there may have been 107 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: some triggering event in that in that walk or in 108 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: their experience that set them off, that that caused them 109 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: to be aggressive that had nothing to do with with 110 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: the victim herself. I'm not saying that's exactly what happened, 111 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: but it's certainly a very common experience where animals quote 112 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: unquote can fly off the handle, uh in a situation 113 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: that is that they're not prepared for that. You wouldn't 114 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: normally see them behaving that way. So I'm not surprised 115 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: that you can see this kind of shocking behavior from 116 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: any creature. Um. Think about the last time you snap 117 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: at somebody because you were worried about some issue and 118 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: that person just happened to be in the wrong place 119 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: at the wrong time. Again, Friends insists the pets, her 120 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: beloved pets would never have killed her, but instead would 121 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: kill you with kisses. But on the following Monday, the 122 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: Share of James Agney ruled out murder, describing the scene 123 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: he and his officers found listen. I observed, as well 124 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: as four of other deputy seraph observed the dogs eating 125 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: the rib cage on the body, and so they became 126 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: more isolated. Were the only contact that they had was 127 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: with each other, and it was on a and and 128 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: less and less human contact. There were various artists of 129 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: clothing underclothing scattered about the area, not far from the 130 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: body and torn into small pieces. There were patches of blood. 131 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: The victim had defensive boons on her hands and arms, 132 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: trying to keep the dogs away from her, which would 133 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: be consistent with being attacked whys she was still alive. 134 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: It appears that the first traumatic injury to her was 135 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: to her throat and face area. There were no strangulation marks. 136 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: The victim had puncture wounds in the skull and this 137 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: was not a homicide. As you hear from the share 138 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: of himself. The dogs eating the rib cage of the body. Okay, 139 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: doctor a great stafford. Not only do they allegedly kill her, 140 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: but then they're enjoying a little brunch out in the 141 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: woods on their dead owner. Gray. Yeah, well, they are animals, 142 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: and again it goes to the question of what condition 143 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: were these animals being cared for and were they were 144 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: they being were they hungry? Were they now nourished in 145 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: the in the time preceding this incident? Um, I mean 146 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: they're going to have to find a food source and 147 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: it's it's it's ghastly. But again it goes to the 148 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: question of what condition were these animals in prior to 149 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: this attack. Well, if she uh to you, Scott Kimbler investigated, 150 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: reporter has been taking such good care of them and 151 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: they are her beloved pets. What do you mean? What 152 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: does what is great? Talking about the condition they were 153 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: being kept well, being taken care of pretty well was 154 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: the case when they were with her. But here as 155 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: of lately, she had some issues going on in her 156 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: life and for whatever reason, she had left the dogs 157 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: to be cared for by her father. Now they're police 158 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: say that these dogs could easily have been considered neglected. 159 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: Where they had been inside dogs, they were now outside 160 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: dogs who were being keptain kennel's and police also say 161 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: they were not being fed daily, So these were neglected 162 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: animals at this point that only saw their regular master, 163 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: Bethany Stevens um a couple of times a week, as 164 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: opposed to where they had been her constant companion in 165 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: time past. So they were likely angry okay that she 166 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: wasn't with him everything, Doctor Gray Stafford. I've never been 167 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: a cat person. I've always been a dog person. But 168 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: when I was a prosecutor living in midtown Atlanta, a 169 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: stone's throw from the courthouse, I found a stray cat, 170 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: which I immediately named Coco, and I tried to give 171 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: the cat away to a lot of cat lovers. I 172 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: knew I was highly allergic to cats, but nobody would 173 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: take the cat, so I took the cut. Well, can 174 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: I tell you how much I love that cat? I 175 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: still dream about the cat, had Coco for eighteen years. 176 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: In fact, I nearly broke up with my now husband 177 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: over the cat because I went to New York and 178 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: he was keeping the cat while I was gone and 179 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: he lost the thing. Okay, can I tell you? I mean, 180 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: I remember I was in Washington, d C. Doing a 181 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: Larry King show. When he had to ask, I said, 182 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: how's Coco tonight? And he did. He hadn't even told 183 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: me the cat was gone. Can I tell you I 184 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: was so mad at him. I had to take the 185 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: phone in another room to tell him that if he 186 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: did not find that cat, we were breaking up. Period. 187 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: How could he be so careless and negligent is to 188 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: lose my little Cocoa? And Coco was with me almost 189 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: every day of my pregnancy. When I could could not 190 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: walk and was in a wheelchair, Coco would would be 191 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: with me. And he lived long enough to see me 192 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: have the twins and finally find happiness, and then he 193 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: went to heaven. So I completely understand being connected to 194 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: a pet. Okay, what was my question, Jack, you carried 195 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: away to Cocoa the cat um? Okay, my question is this? 196 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: So the cat when I would have to go out 197 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: of town. So I'm a bath person, I'll take a 198 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: shower if I have to. The cat got mad at 199 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: me one time and went and pooped in my bathtub, 200 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: which was totally unlike him. He would he did that 201 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: once in his life, and um I chased him around 202 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: the apartment the rolled up in Enquirer. He never did. 203 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: I never actually made contact with him because he had 204 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: under the bed but he never did it again. But 205 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: clearly he was mad at me because I was gone. 206 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: That was my point, Jackie. So what do you make 207 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: of this? She is in the process of moving, so 208 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: she gives the pit bulls to her dad to keep them, 209 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: and they're mad. Well, Nancy, you know, I'm a behavior 210 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: so it's it's important for me not to try to 211 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: ascribe human thoughts and feelings to animal behavior. Okay, Gray, Gray, 212 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: But however, I have always told you that some of 213 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: my best witnesses on the stand were dogs. I think 214 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: they were a lot smarter than a lot of people. 215 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: I know. I don't disagree with that, but I do 216 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: think that what you describe, and that's a great story 217 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: about Coco. What you describe, well, that animals don't handle change. Well. 218 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: In some cases, some animals can handle change just fine. 219 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: You go to New York to host Larry King, and 220 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, the animals upset and maybe wanders off from 221 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: from your your husband. Um, not only animals handle change. Now, husband, 222 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 1: as I like to urge him, my current husband, because 223 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: he almost had become my husband after we lost Coco. 224 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: We all deserve a second chance, don't we. But the 225 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: thing with animals is if they're not prepared to deal 226 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: with changes that could be changing and where they live, 227 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: how they live, how often they're fed, who's coming to visit, 228 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: who's not visiting. Those are really important things in the 229 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: lives of animals, and in some cases animals are very 230 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: poorly conditioned behaviorally and socialized poorly early on, and so 231 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: they don't handle these changes very well. But Scott, according 232 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: to what I've read, family and friends say the dogs 233 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: were very well socialized. Have you read that? Have you 234 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: learned the same thing, Scott Kimbler, Yeah, it's likely reference 235 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: that they would if they were going to kill you 236 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: with anything, it would be killing you with kisses. But again, 237 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: they to see their their environment changed considerably, um the 238 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: one would even consider drastically when they were an indoor 239 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: apartment dog and and then being kept outside and apparently 240 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: not being treated very well according to police. But what 241 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: we know of it is that Bethany came home five 242 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: times a week to see the dogs. They true had 243 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: been moved to an outside kennel, but that was, you know, 244 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: compared to the life they had before living with her 245 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: in her home. I can see how they didn't like 246 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: the change. But another issue is that it's extremely rare 247 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: for a dog to just attack at random. So my 248 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: question to you, Gray is once a dog tastes human flesh, 249 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: I have researched and according to the sheriff, it is 250 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: no longer safe to have the dog around humans. Why 251 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: is it always pitbulls and Rottwiller's Why not a little 252 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: coregy or a Labrador or a golden doodle. Why is 253 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: it always the pit bulls? Gray, Well, I I think 254 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: that some of that is due to the reporting. I 255 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: think a lot of dogs are misidentified in reporting. Uh, 256 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: it's easy to have a blanket phrase like a pit bull, 257 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: which actually can encompass several different breeds and hybrids, and 258 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: so I think that there is a is it an 259 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: inflation if you will, in the in the reporting, and 260 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: maybe some inaccuracy there. They're also very popular dogs, So 261 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: if you go to different regions of the world, you 262 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: may see dogs that have more bites per per capita 263 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: because they're just more popular in that part of the world, 264 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: And certainly pit bull are popular here in the United States, 265 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: so there they dominate the numbers a little bit. Just 266 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: got Morgan Forensics, expert Professor Forensics at Jackson State University. 267 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: How can they tell beyond a shadow of a doubt 268 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: that she was killed by her dogs? How they're going 269 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: to be able to tell Nancy, is Matt chain matching 270 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: the bite mark uh and uh the bite mark and 271 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: also any kind of claw marks that were made by 272 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: these animals. And the idea here is consistency, consistency with 273 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: the type of injuries that this particular breed of animal 274 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: can generate. And that can come from saying examination of 275 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: the dentition the teeth of the dog, as well as 276 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: the pause with the clause UM and and how how 277 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: the death was precisely facilitated UM. Many times I've seen 278 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: in malling instances UM animals will go for an area 279 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: like the neck and that's kind of soft tissue, So 280 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: they would be able to match up to a certain 281 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: degree of reasonable certainty uh, the measurement of the mark 282 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: on the neck as it as it compares to the 283 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: marks uh that could be generated by these particular animals. 284 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: I'd be very interested to know if they how well, UH, 285 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: say a forensic veterinarian examined the teeth of these dogs 286 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: after the attack. Dr Gray Stafford, who is an animal trainer, 287 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: a zoologist and educator, a longtime colleague and friend, all 288 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: the way back to the Jody Areas trial days the 289 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: first trial that is great. Were there reports that one 290 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: of the dogs had been violent in the past. Well, 291 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: I think from the reporting we know that these were 292 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: litter mates. I think that the victim had adopted the 293 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: one at a young age and the other one may 294 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: have been adopted out elsewhere, and then she then took 295 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: the animal in and and there's some indication that that 296 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: other dog came from a difficult or abusive situation. Uh, 297 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: not a lot of reporting on that, but certainly you 298 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: want to ask those questions about what sort of upbringing 299 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: these animals had, how well socialized that were they, how 300 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: well were they a condition to deal with changes? And 301 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: as your other guests have pointed out, these dogs have 302 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: gone through some immediate and dramatic changes in the in 303 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: the days and weeks prior to this very tragic event. 304 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: We are on it to Scott Kimbler, investigative reporter, just 305 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: got Morgan and forensics expert and my longtime friend Dr 306 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: Gray Stafford. Thank you so much. Right now I want 307 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: to thank somebody else, not only you, but to our 308 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: partner our partner making our program possible. Super Beats. 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Today, 329 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: I was reading about a local news anchor who was 330 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: I think in her early fifties who dropped dead with 331 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: a stroke. Beautiful, vivacious. You know high blood pressure can 332 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: lead to a stroke. Hey, I'm gonna do what I 333 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: can do to maintain healthy blood pressure, super beats, thank you. 334 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: Can you even imagine going under the NiFe? First of all, 335 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: that's traumatic enough, okay, because I've had several operations, none elective, 336 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: and every time the last thing I remember is Lord, 337 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: please let me get back to my children. Well, the 338 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: last thing I want to worry about is somebody taking 339 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: nude photos of me with some kind of a tube 340 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: stuck down my mouth and I'm totally passed out and 341 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: what's probably strung up around my neck as a nursing gown. 342 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I I don't want that, but that's exactly 343 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: what one woman claims happened to her and the purp. 344 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: The person who allegedly takes photos of her lying there 345 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: in surgery, buck naked and disseminating them amongst her so 346 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: called friends is a nurse. It's almost more than I 347 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: can take in here for all the facts. Is Ben 348 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: Schmidt with the Pittsburgh Tribune Review who broke the story bad? 349 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: What happened? Well? He Nancy, Yeah, And I think this 350 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: story resonates with a lot of people for that reason 351 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: is people imagine what if that was me? And so 352 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: the the version that I there's two versions here. Um. 353 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: I interviewed the plaintiff in this lawsuit. Her name is 354 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: Sheila Harrowski, and she worked at Washington Hospital, which is 355 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: a little bit outside of Pittsburgh. She was a unit 356 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: secretary there for fifteen years, and she had to have 357 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: some surgery done. It was a minor hernia surgery on 358 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: an old incision, and um, she had the surgery done 359 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: and she came back to work a few weeks later, 360 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: I think four or five weeks later, and her colleague, 361 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: a nurse there, said hey, I have something to show 362 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: you might be good for your scrap book. And according 363 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: to Sheila Haroski, what the nurse showed her was four 364 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: or five cell phone pictures of her on the operating 365 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: table naked. And that's how this whole story and lawsuit 366 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: growke open. Let me understand, you're claiming the victim in 367 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: this scenario also worked there. Absolutely, she did explain to 368 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: me Ben Schmidt been joining me from the Pittsburgh Tribune 369 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: Review who cracked the story. Ben, was there a connection 370 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: between the victim and the alleged perpetrator, their their colleagues. 371 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: They they both worked in the operating room. Um, and 372 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: there's other people that were in there as well, including 373 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: the surgeon. And there's a there's another version of what 374 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: the hospital says happened that I can get into as well. 375 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, she's in there with her colleagues. Dr Bethany Marshall, 376 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: psycho analysts, joining me along with Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert. 377 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: You know, Joe Scott, when are you any more vulnerable 378 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: than you are during an operation? You're totally knocked out 379 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: And this was allegedly a friend of hers, but explained 380 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: Joe Scott just how knocked out this victim was, Oh, 381 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: you're if for those for those in the audience that 382 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: have never under gone, you're it's a it's a it's 383 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: total and complete darkness. You're at the hands and the 384 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: mercy of those individuals that are around you. There's I 385 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: don't know of any other situation other than possibly the dead, uh, 386 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: that are any more vulnerable in these circumstances, and there's 387 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: an amount of trust that goes along with this, and 388 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: this is this has certainly been violated in this case. 389 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanist joining me out of l A 390 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: in addition to Joe Scott Morgan, Dr Bethany, I know 391 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: you heard what bench Schmidt just said, and he has 392 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: beat the streets on this thing to talk to everybody. 393 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: But imagine it being your friend that you work with 394 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: that takes naked photos of you butt naked on the 395 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: operating table, just lying there, probably your arms and legs 396 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: sprawled everywhere, and then disseminates them. It's so horrifying, Nancy, 397 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: and and not only a friend, but a friend who 398 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: is in a position of seniority, because my understanding is 399 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: that that this is a nerve us who took the pictures, 400 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: but the victim, the patient, was somebody at more of 401 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: a clerical level in the hospital there, so she was 402 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: actually abused by a superior And the shocking thing about 403 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: this too is that there's such strict laws. You know, 404 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: we think of hippa, we think of all the training 405 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: that goes into being a nurse, goes into being an 406 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: a theologist, a doctor and that all these laws were violated. 407 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, these people hold licenses. Not only does 408 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: the hospital have a license, but the nurse has a 409 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: license to practice, that anasthsiologist has a license to practice, 410 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: the surgeon has a license to practice. And all these 411 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: people are operating as a team in this um surgical units. 412 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: So you have a group of people conspiring together against 413 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: one victim who's not even conscious or aware. Back to 414 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: Ben Schmidt, reporter with the Pittsburgh Tribune Review, you know, 415 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: I I'm looking at a photo of Sheila Harroski. She's 416 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: forty five years old, and she issued Washington Hospital is 417 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: chief executive officer and the doctor performing her procedure after 418 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: nude photos were allegedly taken of her during her surgery. Hey, 419 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: that opens up a whole another can of worms, Ben Schmidt, 420 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I really just started thinking about this. This 421 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: is in a side bend. Just go with me down 422 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole for a moment. When my friend, my 423 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: longtime friend, Joan Rivers passed away and there were reports 424 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: that one of the doctors or somebody within the operating room, 425 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: and it was at a clinic, it wasn't at the hospital, 426 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: took selfies with Joan as she was lying there on 427 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: the table. That's when I first started thinking about the 428 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: possibility of this. But Ben, the other can of worms 429 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: that I'm talking about that was just opened up the doctor. 430 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: I mean, weren't there other people in there when the 431 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: photo was taken. Shouldn't they have said had something? Well? Absolutely, 432 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: and that's what the lawsuit alleges. Um and um. It's interesting. 433 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: And if if you're ready for me to get into 434 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: the hospital side, I can do that because they actually 435 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: got I gotta ask you more thing. Is it true 436 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: that Sheila had worked in the hospital for about fifteen 437 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: years and then a colleague comes up and approaches her 438 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: when she gets back from her and your surgery with 439 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: photos on the friends selphone, saying hey, I got something 440 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: for your scrap book, buddy, and it's her naked. Did 441 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: that happen? Those are the allegations, but it is a 442 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: fact that she worked there for fifteen years. And if 443 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: you if you're looking at the same photo that we printed, 444 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: that it's actually her hospital. I d she emailed it 445 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: to me because she wanted to, you know, prove that 446 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: she was who she was. Oh my stars. Okay, back 447 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: to what I was asking about the doctor. His name 448 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: was Dennis Brown. I don't know if he was in 449 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: there when the photo was taken. I know he performed 450 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: the surgery, but what do we know. What's the spital 451 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: saying you're right, man, let's hear their side of it. Well. 452 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: And this is interesting because you know you're legal expertically. 453 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: When you write these lawsuits stories. Um, and there's a 454 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 1: corporation or a hospital, the reaction you get is it's 455 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: pending litigation, we cannot comment. That's fully what I expected 456 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: to get. Instead, UM, I got a statement, um. And 457 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: the statement is that, um, Sheila Harraski was knowledgeable of this, 458 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: and she participated in a practical joke, and that she 459 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: had known the doctor and was friends with him. And 460 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: what she did was she got one of those Halloween 461 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: type zombie scars or something and placed it on her 462 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: abdomen before the surgery to play a joke on the doctor, 463 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: and that that's what this was all about. However, at 464 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: the same time, that statement says that the hospital still 465 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: did do an investigation and they still did fire the nurse. 466 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: So you've kind of got okay, Well, did she play 467 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: a joke and did she expect pictures to be taken, 468 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: and if so, why was the nurse fired. And then 469 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: also on top of that, you're still not supposed to 470 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: take pictures in there. So there's a lot going on here. Okay, 471 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: let me understand this. The hospital is saying that one 472 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: of the friends had, well, I don't know if i'd 473 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: call it a friend. One of the colleagues had one 474 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: of those zombie scars you wear at Halloween and put 475 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: it on the woman's stomach, but and took a picture 476 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: of the stomach and it was a joke on the 477 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: doctor for when he came in. But she, Sheila Harovski, 478 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: is saying they took naked photos of her. Uh, that's 479 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: a lot different, Ben Schmidt. A naked photo of your 480 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: body while you're passed out unconscious is a lot different 481 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: from a photo of a fake incision or a fake 482 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: scar on your tummy. That's correct, And she does. She 483 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: did say to me up front that she participated in 484 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: that joke, but she still had no idea that someone 485 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: was going to take pictures of her and then show 486 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: her the pictures and then disseminate the pictures. So she 487 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: was very upfront. Yes, I did do the scar, and 488 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: they will probably mention that go ahead, Well, I don't understand, Nancy. Yeah, hey, listen, 489 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: if I could just interject something right here real quick. 490 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: One of one of the things here that's that's really 491 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: striking to me from a scientific background is the fact 492 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: that first off, they have this I'm assuming this is 493 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: being done from a phone in a surgical suite. Surgical 494 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: suite is supposed to be a sterile environment. And now 495 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: you're talking about bringing in some kind of cosmetic appliance 496 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: that's used during Halloween. How how was all this stuff 497 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: treated relative to uh, the cleanliness of it? And and 498 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: now you're telling me that you're going to open up 499 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: this woman and what is supposed to be a sterile 500 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: environment using sterile procedures, gloves, uh, instruments and all the 501 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: sort of things, and you're introducing these items into this environment. 502 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: This is setting the stage for something, uh that is 503 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: absolutely horrific. When we think about things like septicemia, and 504 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: we're thinking about all these nosocomial infections, which are infections. 505 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: Nosocomial infections that means infections that come about as a 506 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: result of the environment that you're in, and hospitals in 507 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: and of themselves are notorious, uh for being little breeding 508 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: grounds of infection. It makes sense because of all the 509 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: sick people there, and these people are vulnerable, and you 510 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: know this, this strikes a real cord um. Yeah. I mean, 511 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: her privacy has obviously been violated. She's been violated as 512 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: a person. But if you want to take it down 513 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: to the base level here, to the basement of this thing. Uh, 514 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about a life endangering circumstance that these people 515 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: certainly should know better. And at the end of the day, 516 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the surgeon that is 517 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: in that suite with that person, they are the captain 518 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: of that ship. This means that the responsibility and the 519 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: onus of this falls on their shoulders. It'll be really 520 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: interesting to see how the hospital treats these surgeons or 521 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: little gods as I like to describe. I know, Joe 522 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert, you're the professor of 523 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: forensics at Jacksonville State University. And I don't want germs either. Okay, 524 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: I'm against germs, but Ben Schmidt, I'm a lot more 525 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: against him. If they're on my naked body, which is 526 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: on a cell phone photo which has been passed around. 527 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: I'm really against those germs. There's a big difference in 528 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: these two stories, Ben Schmidt joining me from the Pittsburgh 529 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: Tribune review. According to the hospital, it was a joke 530 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: photo of just the victim's stomach with a fake scar 531 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: zombie scar put on it to shock the doctor when 532 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: he walked in. They all worked together. As opposed to 533 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: what she Sheila Harovski is claiming in her in thirty 534 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: nine page complaint that naked photos, nude photos of her 535 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: and specifically her genitals were taken and disseminated. Ben Schmidt, 536 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: those are two diametrically opposed stories. They cannot both be true. 537 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: That one is just the stomach and the other story 538 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: is that were her genitals. Okay, I mean maybe both 539 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: types of photos were taken, but what what do you 540 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: what do you know, Ben Schmidt, Well, and what we 541 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: know about that is and those are very valid points. 542 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: But we do know for a fact that there was 543 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: disciplinary action taken and that the nurse was fired. So 544 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: the fact that the hospital, you know, went on record 545 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: and said that that that tells you something as well 546 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: that they realized something was done wrong. We don't know 547 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: exactly what the photos look like, but we know that 548 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: somebody was fired and there were probably photos taken. You 549 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: spoke directly with Sila Harovski, I have yes, And did 550 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: she show you the photos? She did not, She does 551 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: not have them. She saw them on the phone, and Um, 552 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: she went home that day and then the next day 553 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: went back to human resources and started reporting everything. Well, 554 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: I guess so if it's true, is her story, Ben Schmidt, 555 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: that photos were taken over genitals, that is her version. Yes, 556 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: when you spoke to her and Ben Schmidt, what was 557 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: her demeanor. She's still very upset, um, but very detailed 558 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: and it was funny she did Actually she was the 559 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: first interview I did through her lawyer, and she did 560 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: say that they're going to claim that I used this 561 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: car and it was some sort of joke and I 562 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: didn't understand at the time what she was talking about. 563 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: So I had her, you know, go over those in 564 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: fact several times and then sure enough, when the hospital 565 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: did respond an hour or two later, that was their claim. 566 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: And definitely she was you know, she was emotional, she 567 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: was crying on the phone. Um, very upset. And the 568 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: couple has requested a jury trial. They are not playing 569 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: around now. She also says Dr Bethany Marshall joined me 570 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: Psychoanalyst out of l A, that she has been now 571 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: treated as a bad person, that she has been harassed 572 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: and um approached and accused and mistreated at work since 573 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: she went to h R about this well, because she 574 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 1: has challenged an entire hospital culture. You know, the saying, Nancy, 575 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: where there's smoke, there's fire. It's hard to believe that 576 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: this is an isolated incident. Um. These things do not 577 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: just happen once. And as I said earlier, she was 578 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: a little lower on the totem pole in terms of 579 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: the staff there because she was I think the unit secretary. 580 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: This is the surgeon, the entsiologists, the nurse, This is 581 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: a whole group of people who have been in the 582 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: o R together for a long long time and somehow 583 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: think that this kind of behavior is okay. I believe 584 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: they lured her in by saying that this was going 585 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: to be a joke, that maybe even making her believe 586 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: that she would be a part of their club, that 587 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: she would be accepted by them in some way. And 588 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: then once she was under and Nancy not only naked 589 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: but intubated. When you think of somebody going into a 590 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: major surgery and there's an anentsiologist there. They're indibated, they 591 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: have a tube down their throat, they're completely naked in 592 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: the o R. Who knows, you know, how her body 593 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: was posed, and they really took advantage of maybe what 594 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: she thought was a benign or minor joke, to actually 595 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: photograph her entire body, her genitals. She could not give consent. 596 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: But again, you and I have covered so many hospital 597 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: stories in the past where there's mal practice and all 598 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: kinds of things go on. It's never an isolated incident. 599 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: It's usually a culture of disrespect towards patients. And I 600 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: think that that's what this story is going to uncover, 601 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: that maybe more victims will come forward, maybe more patients 602 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: um that this nurse has a cell phone. What other 603 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: pictures are on her cell phone? What is the hospital hiding, 604 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: what other evidences they're out there? I think that that's 605 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: what's what's going to be so interesting about this case. 606 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: To Alan Duke joining me right now, Alan, what do 607 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: we know? State investigators paid an unannounced visit on Washington 608 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: Hospitals o R to see just how common it was 609 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: for the staff there to have cell phones with them. 610 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: During surgeries. What they found many of the doctors and 611 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: nurses had phones in their lab coat pockets. They ordered 612 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: the hospital to take steps to educate the staff about 613 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: the importance of not taking photos of patients. And it's 614 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: worth noting though the person who alleged he took this 615 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: photo was a person of authority to Joe Scott Morgan, 616 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: forensics expert. Every time I've had to have a surgery 617 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: um which I just had one just recently form a 618 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: mass that turned up in my chest that turned out 619 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: to be benign, Praise God. But I mean during all 620 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: my last multiple surgeries, the last thing. First of all, 621 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: I insist that I smell everybody's breath to make sure 622 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: that they are not drinking. That's first thing, now that 623 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: we've got that straight. As I'm sniffing their breath, I 624 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: look at their eyes to see if they're dilated by chance. 625 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: Then I bring up the specter of John Rivers. I 626 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: bring up you all read about what happened with John Rivers, right, okay, 627 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: And then the last thing I do is make everybody 628 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: pray before we start those surgery, and hopefully between all 629 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: that everybody's sobered up enough that they won't take cell 630 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: phone photos. I'm just thinking about this one and and 631 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: if these allegations are true, and what Dr Bethany was 632 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: saying Joe Scott about she's quote just the secretary, and 633 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: they are the o R nurses and they are the 634 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: doctor and all these so called professionals, how that must 635 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: have made her feel. I mean, I know Bethany's a shrink, 636 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: but Joe Scott, I mean, really, when you think of victims, 637 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: I'd be very hard pressed to say this was not 638 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: a crime. Joe Scott, Yeah, I would be too, Nancy. Uh, 639 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: I've worked in in these environments similar to this with 640 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: medical professionals for years and years, and uh, there is 641 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: a hierarchy in there and you and you hit you 642 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: hit the nail right on the head when you talked 643 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: about being part of the club, um and just to 644 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: be accepted, just to be a part of it. And 645 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: it's a horrible, horrible situation. Um. I think I think 646 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: it draws draws the question this if it had been 647 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: the s Jen undergoing surgery, would they have done this 648 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: to him? And that I think that that really echoes 649 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: here that sentiment that everybody gets treated fairly in this 650 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: kind of environment and respectfully, because this is this is 651 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 1: the ultimate violation. You You've really dehumanized this poor woman 652 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: to the point where she'll be you know, she'll be 653 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: humiliated for years to come. And um, and she might 654 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: very well be a fantastic worker in this environment. That's 655 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: a high stress environment. She's poured her life into it, 656 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: and now you're gonna do this to her. It's it's 657 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: absolutely it's a terrible commentary on medical profession in general. 658 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 1: And this is not an isolated incident. Nancy that this 659 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of thing has gone on the past, and I 660 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: would be very interested to know what else is on 661 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: that phone, just as Dr Bethany had mentioned. So where 662 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: does it stand now? Ben Schmidt joining me, reporter with 663 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: the Pittsburgh Tribune review what's happening next? Man, Well, the 664 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: lawsuit was just filed um uh this week, and so 665 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: that's you know, I'm all still processing processing that. But 666 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: I think those are great points. And there's some questions 667 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 1: I've asked, was there a cuivminal investigation? Apparently there wasn't. 668 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: And also, um, where there are other incidents, did the 669 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: state Department of Health investigate? Um? Those are some things 670 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: that I'm going to be looking into going forward. We're 671 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: on it. Ben Schmidt, Pittsburgh Tribune Review, J. Scott Morgan, Dr. 672 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. We are on it. I want to thank 673 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: our partner today, Legal Zoom. What will your story be? 674 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: Two thousand eighteen. 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You know, I 691 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: just heard and memorized a quote by Eisenhower, and it says, 692 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: what is urgent is really important, and what is important 693 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: is rarely urgent. You know no true words could ever 694 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 1: be spoken. Get off to a strong start. In two 695 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: thousand and eighteen, legal zoom dot com get special savings 696 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: if you enter Nancy in a n C Y in 697 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: the promo box that check out legal Zoom, where life 698 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: meets legal legal Zoom. Thank you not only for being 699 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: her partner today, but for what you were doing for 700 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: people all across our country. Thanks legal Zoom. A pregnant 701 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: woman found dead submerged in her bathtub. Of course they 702 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: all immediately think did the husband do it? But this 703 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: time we believe the culprit was her cell phone. I 704 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 1: want to start with the story of a little teen 705 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: girl who, just before she drops her phone in the 706 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: bath and electrocutes herself to death, had actually taken a photo. 707 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: This gorgeous little girl, Madison co from Lovington, New Mexico, 708 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: had sent a text message just before her death. She 709 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: sent the message to a friend, along with a picture 710 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: of her phone plugged into an extension cord moments before 711 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: she died, and she wrote, quote, when you use an 712 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,919 Speaker 1: extension words so you can plug your phone in. Why 713 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: all you're in the bath? How many hundreds of times 714 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: have I done that and put it on speaker so 715 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,439 Speaker 1: I could actually keep working while I was in the bathtub. Yes, 716 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,359 Speaker 1: am I the only one that's done that? Okay? People 717 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: in studio were saying, yes, you are okay. Well, I 718 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: don't believe that. I want to first talk about a 719 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: little Madison co This little fourteen year old girl electrocuted 720 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: dead in her Lovington home using a cell phone while 721 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: in the tub. Um she had just sent that text 722 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: message photo I told you about. She was at her 723 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 1: dad's home when she was fatally electrocuted after she touched 724 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: a fraid extension cord she was using to charge her 725 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: cell phone. Now, at first, many of us, like police, 726 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: thought that she had dropped her Samsung Edge Plus into 727 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: the tub, but police say it had not been immersed 728 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 1: in the water. As for the pregnant mom, we're not 729 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: so sure about that. Um to Joe Scott Morgan Joseph 730 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert and professor of forensics at Jacksonville 731 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: State University, Jes Scott, I thought that when you drop 732 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: a cell phone in the tub. First of all, what 733 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,879 Speaker 1: about when it is not plugged in for charging, Well, 734 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,839 Speaker 1: that electrocute you. No, Nancy, it wouldn't because right then 735 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: you're just talking about an energy source which is strictly 736 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 1: battery generated, which is only given off a very low 737 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: amount of voltage. It's uh, it's when we get into 738 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: other areas that we have to be concerned. In fact, 739 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,320 Speaker 1: in this case, the little girl Madison co took extra 740 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: precautions to keep the cords dry. You can see in 741 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: the photo that she sent she had placed them kind 742 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: of surrounded them with a towel. Um what she may 743 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: not have known that part of the cord was frayed. 744 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 1: Now what does that mean While she's in the tub, 745 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: police say she reached over and touched that freight extension cord, 746 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: which may have caused the fatal shot. What does this mean, 747 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Well, what it means is anybody at 748 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: home that you have an extension cord laid around, go 749 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: take a look at it just for a second. You'll 750 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: see that rubber lining that's on the outside of the cord. 751 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: If that rubber lining, that rubber lining is there for 752 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: a specific reason, because there are hot lines that are 753 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: inside of that rubber lining. If they get frayed, if 754 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: they get fraid, the outside of the lining gets cracked. 755 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: That exposes you to this direct current that's coming out 756 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: of that's coming out of the wall socket. And that's 757 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,879 Speaker 1: that's potentially what happened in this case, Nancy, because these 758 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: wires were exposed. As they begin to talk about so 759 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: then at that point in time, the electricity, you know, 760 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,879 Speaker 1: you gotta respect it. It doesn't understand it. It goes 761 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: directly into into the body and then it causes an 762 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 1: electrical disruption in the heart. And this is this is 763 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,880 Speaker 1: a fatal fatal event. Two to Alan Duke joining me 764 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: right now, Alan, what do we know? Well, we know 765 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: that this is not the only instance of this happening happening. 766 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: You mentioned the woman who, by the way, was eight 767 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: months pregnant when she just very recently died in her bathtub. 768 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: British authorities have been investigating this problem because they've also 769 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: had deaths there and one of the things that they 770 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 1: found out, besides the extension cords, those lightning cables that 771 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,319 Speaker 1: cost so much if you buy the original Apple one, 772 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: the ones that come with the phone, what are there, 773 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 1: but a lot of times at convenience stores and other 774 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,720 Speaker 1: places you find with them for two or three dollars 775 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: or less, and those are dangerous. British authorities tested four 776 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: hundred of those lightning cables that are used for iPhones. 777 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: They found only three met safety standards. Oh my stars, 778 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: Oh my stars, and this little girl um According to 779 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: the dad, she says, she was my everything. And I know, 780 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: I know how he feels when I look at the twins. 781 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: They're just my everything. She was smart. Loving recently graduated 782 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: eighth grade from Terravista Middle School. She played on the 783 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 1: basketball team on the band, made great grades, spending the 784 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:29,320 Speaker 1: summer with dad in Lovington, where the fatal accident occurred 785 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: on her way to high school. The family urging people, 786 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: the bathroom is the place for showers, and your phones 787 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 1: don't belong in the bathroom. Electricity and water do not mix. 788 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: All it takes is a drop, one drop. I mean, 789 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: looking at this little girl, she's just just beautiful. To 790 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: Joseph S. Gott Morgan, forensics expert, what happens to your 791 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: body even from a small shot, Well, it's it's obviously 792 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 1: very painful. I think that any of us can identify 793 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: with this UH. And what happens is is that the 794 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,880 Speaker 1: electricity that's coming out of the cored directly UH, follows 795 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,840 Speaker 1: into the body and it will follow the path at 796 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: least resistance. And um, just so that we understand, when 797 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,520 Speaker 1: our heart beats, that's a tiny electrical impulse that literally 798 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: comes out of the brain. Okay, just so folks that 799 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,320 Speaker 1: under at home understand that. And if this electrical impulse 800 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: gets disrupted in any way, this can lead to a 801 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: fatal cardiac event, which happened in this particular case. Apparently 802 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: one more thing we need to understand, Nancy, And I 803 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: don't know folks, Folks might be aware of this, but 804 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,400 Speaker 1: if if in the bathtub when we're bathing and we 805 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 1: use soap, soap actually makes our bodies more conductive to 806 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:56,720 Speaker 1: electricity than just say plain water. There's a whole electrochemical 807 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: thing that goes on here. So if her hands were 808 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: in fact soapy when she touched that line, it sets 809 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,359 Speaker 1: up for even a higher risk of looking they'll talk 810 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: about the pregnant woman elexecuated charging her phone as she 811 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 1: used it in the bath just two weeks before she 812 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: gave was to give birth. Just a beautiful, beautiful young lady. 813 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: What happened? Alan Deep? This was on New Year's Eve 814 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: and she was at her home in the bathtub. Her 815 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: husband had left the home and realized that he couldn't 816 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,800 Speaker 1: get back in. He didn't have his keys and he 817 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: had to break the door down to get to his 818 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,360 Speaker 1: wife after she did not answer. When he rushed in, 819 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,399 Speaker 1: he found her submerged unconscious in the bath. So many 820 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: times we all of a sudden suspect the husband might 821 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,800 Speaker 1: have done something. But the paramedics came and tried to 822 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: resuscitate her. Turned out she had suffered a cardiac arrest. 823 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: They were unable to save her or the life of 824 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: the baby, and the investigation subsequently concluded that it was 825 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,759 Speaker 1: the mobile phone charging quote in the media facility of 826 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 1: the bathtub that caused the electrocution. Her mobile phone was found, 827 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: as police say, in the immediate vicinity of the bathtub 828 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 1: and is believed to have caused electrocution. According to the 829 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 1: Dauphine ly bear to you, Joe Scott Morgan, how would 830 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: that happen? If that's if that is in fact what happened, 831 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: I would I would not look at the phone so much. 832 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: I would look at the cord, as as Alan had 833 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, because you're going to have to have a 834 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,320 Speaker 1: source itself where you have this direct line of current 835 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,920 Speaker 1: that is running and essentially this water becomes electrified. One 836 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: of the things I'd be very interested to know in 837 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 1: this particular case Nancy, is you've got this young woman 838 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: who is in fact in uh advantacy, twenty one years old. 839 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,600 Speaker 1: She is not going to have a heart attack. Okay, 840 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: it had to be something else, No, But if one 841 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: of the things I'd be interested in Nancy is she's 842 00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,839 Speaker 1: in an advanced state of pregnancy this point in time, 843 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,960 Speaker 1: how compromised she might have been, say, if this was 844 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,879 Speaker 1: just simply a jolt from the electricity, if she they're 845 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: kept throwing around this term submerged in the water, I'd 846 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 1: be very interested to know what the findings were relative 847 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 1: to how much water she had on board in her 848 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: lungs at autopsy when they went to examine her to 849 00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: see if they said she died of cardiac arrest. My 850 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:31,320 Speaker 1: interest is the electrocution. How can you look at a 851 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: body and tell someone was electrocuted. Most of the time 852 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,800 Speaker 1: when we take a look for electrocution, there will be 853 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,320 Speaker 1: a specific point of injury and Nancy, this is a 854 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:46,799 Speaker 1: very fine, fine uh uh examination that has to take place. 855 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,960 Speaker 1: These marks, some people characterize them as burn marks. They 856 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: won't necessarily look like burn Sometimes they'll have kind of 857 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,279 Speaker 1: a pink is hue to them. Uh. You have to 858 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: be very careful and you want to think about points 859 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,920 Speaker 1: of contact. What what is the prime are location. Well, 860 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,080 Speaker 1: first we're gonna look at the palms of the hands 861 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,000 Speaker 1: than any other kind of ancillary areas where her bear 862 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,920 Speaker 1: skin might have touched that area. So the examination has 863 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: to be very very thorough, very thorough. Bottom line, cell 864 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: phones and water do not mix. Charging your cell phone, 865 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: electrical cords, extension chords, they don't mix. Nancy Grace signing off, 866 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: goodbye Fran