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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Imagine this a teen girl,

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Speaker 1: a teen girl. I have a teen girl. This teen

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Speaker 1: girl dumped by the side of the interstate, her body discovered,

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Speaker 1: and then years pass the case never solved. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. First

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Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at WRTV.

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Speaker 1: Investigators in Boone County are not giving up on a

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Speaker 1: twenty two year old unsolved mystery. They hope this new

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Speaker 1: sketch will help identify a woman found dead in Lebanon

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two. Or found the woman's body at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of a hill near I sixty five and

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Speaker 1: State Road forty seven. Police believe she was between seventeen

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Speaker 1: and twenty two years old when she died. She was

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Speaker 1: around five foot six with short, reddish brown hair. The

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Speaker 1: woman had a tattoo that said mom, one that said love,

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Speaker 1: and a tattoo with two hearts on her right breast.

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Speaker 1: If you have any information about the case, call the

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Speaker 1: Boone County Sheriff at eight sixty five eight two fourteen twelve.

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Speaker 1: Imagine a teen girl thrown by the side of the

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Speaker 1: Interstate like she's trash. I am flown up and down

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Speaker 1: the interstate a million times and seen somebody in front

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Speaker 1: of me typically throw out trash, and it always irritates

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Speaker 1: me because I hate little bugs. These people dump out

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Speaker 1: a teen girl and leave her on the side of

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Speaker 1: Ice sixty five and then to add insult to injury,

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Speaker 1: to rub salt in the wound, no one can identify

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Speaker 1: the girl. Years pass Somewhere out there, someone is missing,

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Speaker 1: a daughter, a sister, a granddaughter. Again, I may see Grayson.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nation in series

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Speaker 1: six eleven. Also joining us an incredible panel to break

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Speaker 1: down what we know right now. First of all, DNA

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Speaker 1: expert the CEO of author am Inc. David Middleman, Jim Elliott,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of Warner Robins, Georgia

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Speaker 1: with Butler snow LLLP, doctor Jory Crasen, renowned psychologists joining US.

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Speaker 1: Faculty Saint Leo University and author of Operation s O S.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher, the medical Examiner for the State of

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Speaker 1: Florida at pathcaremed dot com. Also Professor University in Florida

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Speaker 1: Medical School, forensic Medicine and the found and host of

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Speaker 1: the International Forensic Madisone Death Investigation Conference. Now that's a

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Speaker 1: good time. Joining me, the founder and director the Coal

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Speaker 1: Case Research Institute. You can find her at Coalcase dot org.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum weighing in, But first I want to go

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Speaker 1: to investigative reporter with wi SHTV. You know him well,

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Speaker 1: Richard Essex. Richard, tell me about the discovery of this

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Speaker 1: girl's body. Well, this is my own county, and this

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Speaker 1: happened when I was in my late twenties. I remember

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Speaker 1: this very very clearly. We didn't have this type of

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Speaker 1: crime in our county. It was very very rare. So

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two farmer is out inspecting his fields and

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Speaker 1: he comes across a human leg sticking out of a creek. Okay, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: wait wait, Richard Essex, Okay, you got me drinking from

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Speaker 1: the fire hydrant. You got to slow it down. I

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Speaker 1: beg you've told this story and thought about this story.

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Speaker 1: I mean McCollum, when we weren't trying cases together, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about the case and talking about the case

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Speaker 1: ad nauseam to anybody that when I would come in

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Speaker 1: contact with do you remember that. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. I

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Speaker 1: can remember you spreading the case file out and look

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Speaker 1: at it every single page, in every single detail, and

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Speaker 1: we'd talk about it over and over and over until

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Speaker 1: you had it as clear as anybody could understand that case,

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Speaker 1: over and over and over. So Richard Essex joining me

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Speaker 1: on Investigative Reporter WISHTV. Oh, you can find him on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Richard Essex the Third Richard, So slow down,

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Speaker 1: because I know not only have you reported on this,

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Speaker 1: you've studied it and probably thought about it a million times.

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Speaker 1: Was the farmer on his tractor or not? And I've

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Speaker 1: got a reason for asking. I think he was on

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Speaker 1: foot because you know you can go on foot in

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Speaker 1: places where you can't reach with a tractor. So he's

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Speaker 1: on foot and he's seen al por trading from was

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Speaker 1: it the earth or did you say a creek? From

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Speaker 1: the creek? Okay, go ahead. And at that time, things

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Speaker 1: like this were very, very unusual in Boone County where

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Speaker 1: north of Indianapolis, and on occasion you would have a

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Speaker 1: body would be would be dumped in some of the

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Speaker 1: rural areas, but along Interstate sixty five and there's somewhat

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Speaker 1: public area, very unusual. Now you're saying, did you say

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Speaker 1: Interstate fifty five or sixty five? Okay, good, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: got that part right. Where does sixty five run, Richard Essex.

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Speaker 1: It runs right through the center of the state. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we are the crossroads of America, as you probably well know,

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Speaker 1: and this runs right through my home county from the

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Speaker 1: south east corner to the northwest corner. Okay, let me

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Speaker 1: understand something. We're talking about Boone County, Indiana. That is

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Speaker 1: where Richard is joining us. From where Richard is joining us.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've made this analogy, this point to a

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Speaker 1: jury a million times, and I'll be talking about, for instance,

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Speaker 1: drug markers and drug trafficking. I seventy five goes from Florida,

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Speaker 1: where the dope comes in at the Fort, all the

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Speaker 1: way up to New York City, and Atlanta is the

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Speaker 1: first big, big stop along seventy five, hence the high

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Speaker 1: crime rate in Atlanta. So, Richard, you're saying sixty five,

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Speaker 1: I sixty five goes all the way across Indiana. It's

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Speaker 1: a state route. Oh yeah, it's it's a high. Sixty

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Speaker 1: five runs almost all the way down well, I think

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Speaker 1: almost into Tennessee and Okay, gotcha. And my point for

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Speaker 1: asking that and joining me right now is Sheriff Mike Nielsen,

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Speaker 1: Booe County Sheriff joining us from Indiana. Sheriff, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for being with us. And we're just talking

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Speaker 1: about I sixty five. So bottom line, when a boy

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Speaker 1: is discovered by a local farmer, that could have been

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Speaker 1: near I sixty five, That could have been anybody from

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Speaker 1: Tennessee all the way up to the tip of Indiana. Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those interstates that travel. It's a

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Speaker 1: main interstate between Chicago and Indianapolis. So we see a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of human trafficking, we see a

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Speaker 1: lot of drug running. We do everything that we can

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Speaker 1: to try to curb that, and this was one of

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Speaker 1: those cases back in that time period. Jim Elliott joining me,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of one Robin is Georgia. Jim.

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Speaker 1: That makes solving the case that much more difficult because

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Speaker 1: unless someone someone can visually id this girl, this team

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Speaker 1: girl thrown off I sixty five. Don't know how much

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Speaker 1: she had been decomposed, but let's just pretend she wasn't decomposed.

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Speaker 1: If nobody can id her, then you're left with a

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Speaker 1: jet a doteen girl. That could have been done by

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Speaker 1: anybody up and down the interstate from Tennessee to the

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Speaker 1: tip of Indiana. Well, of course, I mean just a

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Speaker 1: you know, a high traveled area, and I mean that's

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Speaker 1: the perfect place for someone to dump a body whatever

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Speaker 1: and then take off. And I mean you got to

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Speaker 1: think about it, too, Jim Elliott. The idea of someone

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Speaker 1: I mean, when I drive by a car stopped on

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Speaker 1: the side of the interstate in your neck of the

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Speaker 1: woods would be seventy five or maybe even sixteen. I

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Speaker 1: don't think anything about it. I think they've just pulled

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Speaker 1: over because they're tired, or they're eating, or they've got

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Speaker 1: a tire problem. I don't think, hey, they're out in

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Speaker 1: the woods dumping a body. So there could have been

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Speaker 1: a million witnesses or no witnesses. Jim Elliott. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it was right at I believe an entrance exit ramp,

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Speaker 1: and so again, someone could have easily pulled off, don't

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Speaker 1: whatever they chose to do. And then, as the sheriff

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Speaker 1: shared with us, taken off north to say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's a really good point. That's why you win all

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Speaker 1: those cases Jim Elliott because he's right rol entry exit.

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Speaker 1: That makes it a whole other can of worms. That's

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Speaker 1: somebody that intentionally pulled off the interstate at that spot,

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Speaker 1: end umped no body, no question about it. And in

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Speaker 1: that area. You're talking about a situation that was probably

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Speaker 1: very very fast. But when he came into contact with

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Speaker 1: her in Ohio to Indiana, you're talking about several hours

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Speaker 1: in a vehicle together, time stories with Nancy Grace. Just

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Speaker 1: think about it. Somebody's little sister, somebody's daughter thrown on

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Speaker 1: the side of the road like trash to doctor Jorry

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Speaker 1: Cross and joining us renowned psychologist faculty Saint Leo University

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Speaker 1: and author doctor Jory that's just a whole nother mindset

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Speaker 1: to first kill somebody, because if she died of natural

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Speaker 1: or accidental, then RuSHA to nine one one, Right, That's

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Speaker 1: what I always say about Totmom and killing. If she

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Speaker 1: really died of the pool in the backyard, the father,

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Speaker 1: George Anthony, former cop, would rush her to the hospital,

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Speaker 1: right or call nine one one. You wouldn't go, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: I'll just put her in a trash bag and throw

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Speaker 1: in the woods. No, that's why this team girl's body

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Speaker 1: is disposed of because she died of a nefarious reason.

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Speaker 1: She was murdered. But think about it, doctor Jory Crowson.

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Speaker 1: Not only is it the mindset of killing somebody but

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Speaker 1: then throwing him out like trash, just push him out

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Speaker 1: of the car and keep going. Well, the other part

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Speaker 1: of that mindset is looking for the perfect place in

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Speaker 1: their mind to dispose of the body. That's smart, okay.

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Speaker 1: And so you look at and I saw the pictures.

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Speaker 1: You can see the off ramp in you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not a very well traveled spot being in the country.

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Speaker 1: And also plus if it were at night, secluded by

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Speaker 1: you know, the darkness. But still, you know, the perpetrators

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Speaker 1: got to get that body out quickly and be gone.

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Speaker 1: And that's still, you know, a part of his operational pattern,

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Speaker 1: his behavior or not. If it's two o'clock in the morning,

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Speaker 1: they may not feel that they're in so much of

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Speaker 1: a hurry. I will never forget the story. It's a case.

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Speaker 1: It's not a story. David Eisenhower is a defendant. The

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Speaker 1: little girl in the cold level had just been thrown

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Speaker 1: out of the car, and they had wiped her body

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Speaker 1: down with like alcohol wipes and then just thrown her

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Speaker 1: out and I always think of this little I believe

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Speaker 1: she was thirteen years old when she was murdered by

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Speaker 1: this college guy that had started a sex affair with

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Speaker 1: this little girl, and I think of her body lying

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Speaker 1: out on the side of the road, and no one

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Speaker 1: here better to discuss it than Richard Essex with Wish

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Speaker 1: of SHTV and special guests. Sheriff Mike Nielsen, the Boon

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Speaker 1: County Sheriff. Sheriff. What was it like at the time

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Speaker 1: when this little girl's body was found? How did you

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Speaker 1: first learn about it? Well, we had pagers back then,

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Speaker 1: and I was paged out for road countriage. I had

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Speaker 1: been a police officer at that time for about seven years,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was interesting to show up at

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Speaker 1: the scene and see the devastation. It was really one

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Speaker 1: of the first major violent crimes that I had ever

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Speaker 1: encountered because it's such a rural area, so it was

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Speaker 1: it was quite quite dramatic, not only for the fireman

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Speaker 1: that founder of the farmer that found her, but also

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Speaker 1: just moving on and trying to put yourself in the

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Speaker 1: shoes of her parents, her brothers and sisters, and just

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out who this person was was she

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Speaker 1: clothed or unclothed, partially clothed, had a top on and

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Speaker 1: underwear and some socks, which means she was probably right.

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Speaker 1: Don't know that. We the autopsy did not reveal that,

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Speaker 1: but we feel that that probably was the case, Sheriff.

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Speaker 1: If it walks like a duck and it quacks like

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Speaker 1: a duck and it looks like a duck, I typically

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Speaker 1: would suggest to a jury it is a duck. So

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Speaker 1: Richard Essex, reporter, Wish TV. How long has she been

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Speaker 1: out there? She'd been out there for a couple of days,

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Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. So the temp at that time

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Speaker 1: she's found May three, I'm sure it was extremely warm,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Nielsen with me when you saw the body. Was

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Speaker 1: she decomposed? She was partially decomposed at that time, and

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Speaker 1: the autopsy was hard. It's hard to be at, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was partially decomposed at that time. Nancy. Can you

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Speaker 1: still picture this in your mind, Sheriff, Oh, like it

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Speaker 1: was yesterday. Like it was yesterday. And that's the that's

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Speaker 1: the whole thing that we see things in law enforcement

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Speaker 1: that are traumatic events, and you know, it has a

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Speaker 1: long lasting effect on us. I was always I've always

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Speaker 1: wondered this, and I've talked to you, Cheryl McCallum about

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Speaker 1: it quite a bit. I still have in my head

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Speaker 1: murder cases, rate cases, child lenstation cases like they were yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and the victims and the witnesses all seen just as

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Speaker 1: real to me right now as they were at the

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Speaker 1: time when I was meeting with them talking to their families.

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Speaker 1: I'm autopsy photos in my mind, crime scenes in my mind.

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Speaker 1: It never goes away. When you say when you got there,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Mike Nielsen, that you could tell she was partially decomposed.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? What did you observe? Well?

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Speaker 1: When she was dumped like crash, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that happened was her face was face down in a

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Speaker 1: puddle of water, and with the heat over those few

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Speaker 1: days and that water, her face was fairly decomposed, and

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Speaker 1: there was there was some other exposure to the elements

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Speaker 1: that made it obvious to us that she had been

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Speaker 1: there for a few days. Doctor Tim Gallagher or medical Elexander,

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Speaker 1: State of Florida at pathcaremad dot com. I think what

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Speaker 1: he's trying to say in a nice way is bug activity,

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Speaker 1: and that itself is a euphemism. That's when bugs and

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Speaker 1: animals start eating you, eating your flesh. And it's not

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Speaker 1: anything I ever want to talk about with my children,

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Speaker 1: or let's just let's just say we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: it over the supper table. But this is a murder

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Speaker 1: and these are the facts. Whether we like him or not,

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Speaker 1: this is the truth. So, doctor Gallagher. The fact that

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Speaker 1: there may be as I like to say, bug insect

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Speaker 1: activity that's actually very probitive. For instance, certain types of

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Speaker 1: fly blow flies take X number of hours to incubate,

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Speaker 1: So if you find a body that type of insect

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Speaker 1: festering there, you can tell how long the bugs have

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Speaker 1: been there in age back to the time of their murder,

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Speaker 1: or it helps you anyway somewhat of a gauge. So,

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Speaker 1: now that we've learned from the sheriff, Sheriff Mike Nielsen

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Speaker 1: that her face was down in the water, how difficult

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Speaker 1: is that going to be to get a cod cause

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Speaker 1: of death or make an identification. And why the hey

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Speaker 1: didn't they do a rape kit? Well, it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: say why they didn't do one back in the day

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Speaker 1: when they got her. They may have actually done one,

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Speaker 1: but it may not have been processed or her DNA

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Speaker 1: could be on some shelf somewhere, but you're at Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Being outdoor and being in an area that has moisture water,

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Speaker 1: you are very prone to insect activity. Insects scavenging insects.

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Speaker 1: Typically blowflies usually find you within an hour or two

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Speaker 1: after you die and start laying their eggs on these

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Speaker 1: soft and moist parts of your body, and they take

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Speaker 1: a couple of hours to hatch, and after the eggs hatch,

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Speaker 1: the larva do go through growth phases and growth spurts

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Speaker 1: that a forensic entomologist or bug expert can narrow down

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Speaker 1: how many hours these maggots are in age and then

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Speaker 1: track down when the time of the murder was. So

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Speaker 1: that would be a forensic entomologist, and they do very

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Speaker 1: good work there at the University of Florida at Doctor

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Speaker 1: Birds Lab, they really do. Sheriff Neilson, can I ask

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Speaker 1: you something? How long have you been the elected sheriff.

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Speaker 1: I've been the elected sheriff for eight years, But at

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Speaker 1: this time you were a police officer. I was. I

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Speaker 1: was a sheriff's deputy back then. I started off my

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Speaker 1: career at a little town of Dezionsville here in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty three and went to the sheriff's department in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine. So I was around with the sheriff's office

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Speaker 1: for a couple of years before before this body was found.

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Speaker 1: So you were a sheriff, not a police officer. I

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Speaker 1: was a deputy sheriff. I am the current selected sheriff

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Speaker 1: now right, yes, yes, thank you. When you saw the

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Speaker 1: girl and you saw her face, did you believe that

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Speaker 1: she could be identified visually? No, ma'am. And that's one

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Speaker 1: of those things that again, it's like it happened yesterday.

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Speaker 1: I can I can still see that, I can still

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Speaker 1: see the autosities, and people that are in public safety

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Speaker 1: can relate to that facts. You never forget those types

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Speaker 1: of scenes. But we knew that it was going to

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Speaker 1: be a challenge at that time, early stages of DNA,

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Speaker 1: those types of things. We knew it was going to

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Speaker 1: be a challenge to try to identify her. We just

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Speaker 1: didn't know that it was, you know, thirty years later,

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Speaker 1: we'd still be trying to solve you know, to David

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Speaker 1: Middleman joining me, a DNA expert and CEO of author

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Speaker 1: Am Inc. And you can find them at authoram ot

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Speaker 1: h r a m dot com. David Cheron would call,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you're here for this if you

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Speaker 1: were in the courtroom with me at that time. But

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Speaker 1: I remember when I had my first DNA trial. I

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Speaker 1: was just thrilled about DNA deoxyribanic lake acid sharing it

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Speaker 1: with a jury, and I told the crime lab scientists,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, bring all those I guess slides and pictures

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Speaker 1: and I'm a shove to the jury. And they went,

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Speaker 1: are you sure, And I'm like, yes, I'm sure. I'm

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Speaker 1: not hiding anything from a jury. The last time I

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Speaker 1: tried to obscure something from a jury, and the only

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Speaker 1: time I might add, I didn't want the jury to

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Speaker 1: know one of my victims of robbery. It was a

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Speaker 1: stripper out at two am, just as a cheerleader, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, I just won't mention it. Well the

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Speaker 1: moment she walked in, everybody knew she was a stripper.

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Speaker 1: So I basically had to spit that out at the

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Speaker 1: get go. I was afraid they would judge her and

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Speaker 1: not like her. As it turned out, they liked her

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Speaker 1: just fine. I was the only one with the problem.

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Speaker 1: David Middleman, so I got in a DNA scientist to

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Speaker 1: bring all those slides, and it just looked like bad negatives.

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Speaker 1: It was awful. It really. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: guys do it, but if the jury saw, it just

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Speaker 1: looks like a lot of strings of dots. And I

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Speaker 1: looked at that, I thought, what was I thinking? Believe me,

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Speaker 1: I got those down off the stand as quickly as

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Speaker 1: I could. David Middleman, So this is all done under

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Speaker 1: a microscope and through testing. Correct. Yes, it's all all tiny,

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Speaker 1: tiny pieces of bits of evidence. It's all molecular and

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Speaker 1: you use a lot of high powered equipment like microscopes

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Speaker 1: to do the work. Did you say molecular, Yes, like

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Speaker 1: tiny little molecular candid seat. Yes, that that was the picture.

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Speaker 1: That was the picture I tried to show the jury,

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Speaker 1: and of course I had it blown up at my

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Speaker 1: own expense, because you know, the county can't afford that.

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Speaker 1: And I took one look at it and I need

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Speaker 1: my ninety seven dollars had been wasted. Sheriff. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever called families to the Morgue Sheriff? Oh, absolutely all

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Speaker 1: the time. This was the hurt wrenching piece of this

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Speaker 1: because we had no idea who this We assume she

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Speaker 1: was a young woman at the time, between seventeen and

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Speaker 1: twenty four. As we looked at that, we had nobody

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Speaker 1: to tell and that was pretty devastating for the entire team.

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Speaker 1: Is it real, doctor Tim Gallagher? We always see it

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Speaker 1: in movies and on TV where the families brought in

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Speaker 1: to identify the dead person. Does that still happen or

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Speaker 1: do we usually use DNA or dental X race. No,

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Speaker 1: we don't allow them to come into the morg any longer.

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Speaker 1: We've had a couple of incidences where their emotions overcame

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Speaker 1: them and emergency services had to be called. But typically

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Speaker 1: what we'll do is we'll take a facial picture of them,

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Speaker 1: a very higher resolution digital picture of their face or

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Speaker 1: any unique part of their bodies such as a tattoo,

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Speaker 1: and then present that to the family in a controlled

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Speaker 1: environment in the main conference room of the facility. Praise

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Speaker 1: the Lord in Heaven for that. I don't think I

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Speaker 1: could have taken that when my fiancee was murdered, having

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Speaker 1: to go identify his body. So here what we've got

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Speaker 1: on our hands. A teen girl thrown off I sixty

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Speaker 1: five down an embankment like she's trash found by a

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Speaker 1: farmer out searching his land, and of course that's who

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Speaker 1: usually becomes the first suspect, the one who finds the body.

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Speaker 1: But of course that led to nothing, so we're left

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Speaker 1: with an unidentified teen girl. So what do we do next?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut five. This is Jesse

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Speaker 1: Wells at Fox fifty nine. One year after her death,

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Speaker 1: detectives made a clay mold of the woman's face. In

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, facial reconstruction images were released, and last year

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Speaker 1: a forensic artist released the newest sketch of the victim.

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Speaker 1: So to you, Sheriff Nielsen. One year after discovery of

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Speaker 1: the body, detectives make a clay mold of the woman's face.

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Speaker 1: Then in a couple of years later they do a

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Speaker 1: facial reconstruction image using a forensic artist. Were you there

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Speaker 1: when that happened? Yes, Actually, we had to exhume the

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Speaker 1: body in order to get pieces of the body at

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Speaker 1: that time, specifically the skull to send to the north

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Speaker 1: to Michigan to be able to get that sculpture done

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Speaker 1: at the time, and that's set in our lobby for

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Speaker 1: years and years and years until it started to be great.

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Speaker 1: You mean the clay mold of her face, Yes, started

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Speaker 1: to be great. Oh my stars, you know, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: That is a lot of hard work, getting a clay

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Speaker 1: mold made of her face, having her body exhumed, the

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Speaker 1: n a facial reconstruction image, then a forensic artist releasing

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Speaker 1: newest sketch of the victim. That's a lot of work

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Speaker 1: to get the idea on this girl. It's a turn

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Speaker 1: of work, and it's, you know, very delicate work. They say,

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Speaker 1: you know, they didn't know where she had come from.

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Speaker 1: They knew when a's range seventeen to twenty four, but

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Speaker 1: they didn't know if she was from Kansas or Michigan

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Speaker 1: or Florida. They had no idea how she had gotten

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Speaker 1: to Indiana. It could have been a truck stop or

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Speaker 1: a kidnapping, or she had been a runaway that came

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Speaker 1: across her killer. They didn't know who she was. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher. When you exume a body that has of

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Speaker 1: course been embalmed, the facial characteristics should not be changed, correct,

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Speaker 1: But the soft tissue of the face is going to

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Speaker 1: be highly degraded. But that's not what the artists use.

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Speaker 1: They used the bone structure to develop their impression of

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Speaker 1: what the soft tissue must look like, and then compiling

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Speaker 1: all that together will give you a representation of what

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Speaker 1: their face looks like. And what do you make them

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Speaker 1: mold out of. I'm sure it's not just regular clay,

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Speaker 1: or isn't Well it actually is. Yeah, it's actually modeling

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Speaker 1: clay that's got a little more a little more um

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Speaker 1: a texture to it than you would for most things.

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Speaker 1: But it does, in fact, it does degrade overtime. And

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Speaker 1: that's why we like to take these digital high resolution

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Speaker 1: photographs of the modeling clay representation. Um so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: so when it does, the great and we'll tell other

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Speaker 1: things to pull back on it, like, for instance, the

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Speaker 1: figures at Madam two says, oh, that's wax. Actually yeah,

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Speaker 1: well why don't they use wax if that's better? Um? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, these people who do the reconstruction are artists,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and so they work in their medium and

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Speaker 1: uh and so traditionally they've been trained in the clay medium.

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Speaker 1: So I can't speak to why they don't use wax, right,

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Speaker 1: Roger Gallagher, Trust me, I'm not going to interfere with

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Speaker 1: the artistic temperament. Okay, I'm just a j D. I

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Speaker 1: know nothing about nothing from wax to clay what just

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Speaker 1: I'll let them do their thing, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: just want to do Jerry Cross and her family somewhere

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Speaker 1: has no idea that this body is being exhumed and

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Speaker 1: they're putting clay over her face to try to figure

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Speaker 1: out who she is. And one thing I thought about

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Speaker 1: is the unknown that the family is going through. And

428
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: you know they're grieving, but they're still wondering. There's so

429
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: much ambiguity, there's so much unknown there, and how they're

430
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: dealing with it and processing it horribly. I'm sure eventually

431
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: they're going to just probably just shut down and try

432
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: to move forward. That's a sad day when you have

433
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: to shut down and not feel it anymore. Sheriff Neilson,

434
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: how much did it bother you when you so you

435
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: got this clay moll made of her face and you

436
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: had it out in the lobby where people would have

437
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: to see it when they would walk by, including you.

438
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: Every day you would see the face of this unidentified

439
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: team girl when you would walk in and out. Fancy,

440
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: I think that's what kept me motivating. Did I think

441
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: knowing that that was there every single day just tugged

442
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: at my heartstrings. Knowing that there was a parent, there

443
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: was a brother, there was a sister, there was a

444
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: grandpa grandma out there that had no idea where this

445
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: person was. And I think that that motivation really kept

446
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: me going on this case until I was able to

447
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: open it back up in twenty fifteen. It was just

448
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: that motivation seeing that every single day Nancy Dodgor Gallagher

449
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: in modern day, do we keep DNA at the crime

450
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: lab on unidentified Jane do's and John does so at

451
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: some point we can continue trying to identify them. We

452
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: certainly do, and as the years have gone by, we've

453
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: increased our ability to preserve the DNA. We now know

454
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: that it has to be in a dry and very

455
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: cool environment and on certain media. Watman paper is typically

456
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: what we use, and it can be preserved for decades

457
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: and decades in perfect form and then examined, you know,

458
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: very very far into the future to help solve a

459
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: future old cold cases. Sheriff Mike Nilsen joining me from

460
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: Boone County as the elected chriff there, who was a

461
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: deputy sheriff at the time this girl's body was found

462
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: partially decomposed. Every day he'd walked by a clay mold

463
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: of her face and wonder, who is this girl? When

464
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: did you get the idea to try and get a

465
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: DNA mattch Sheriff. Well, I'll tell you what. I became

466
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: the elected sheriff in twenty fifteen, and at that point

467
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: in time. It wasn't soon after that that I met

468
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: with my command staff and said, we owe it to

469
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: this girl, we owe it to the family to try

470
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: to identify her, and case is going to take top priority.

471
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: And not long after I took office, we exhumed her

472
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: body for the second time. Nancy, Oh, dear Lord Jim

473
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: Elliot joining me out of one ROMs, Georgia high profile

474
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: lawyer there, Jim, it is no easy thing to get

475
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: an exhimation done. No, nor should it be. I mean,

476
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: that's a very delicate process. So you know, the standards

477
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: are very hot to provide a compelling an argument why

478
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: that should happen. Let's take a listen to our cut

479
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: to our friend, Sheriff Mike Nielsen. I am pleased to

480
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: announce at this press conference significant investigative progress in the

481
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two Jane Doe case. I am proud to

482
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: announce today that the investigation will be transitioning from identifying

483
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: Jane Doe to an active homicide investigation. We will now

484
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: focus on finding her killer and working hard to find

485
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: out who dumped her body along and on ramp on

486
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: I sixty five and State Road forty seven thirty years ago.

487
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: On May third, next month, we have positively identified who

488
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: we have to know as Jane Doe and can now

489
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: call her Margaret an Stiakowski, also known as Maggie by

490
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: her family from Toledo, Ohio at the time when Maggie

491
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: was found, she was found one month prior to her

492
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: eighteenth birthday and our cut three. This is Maggie's biological brother.

493
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: The thing that stings about this the most, other than

494
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: the fact that she's not here, is that my parents

495
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: didn't get the closure while they were alive, and my

496
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: mother lived with it quite the rest of her life. It's,

497
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: you know, to me, it's it's a little bitter sweet.

498
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm happy. It doesn't seem like it because

499
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: I'm crying, but I'm happy. I'm happy for my sister.

500
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: One last thing to wonder about and worry. What is

501
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: she okay. You know, I always wondered if she was

502
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: abducted in sex trafficking or something and being abused or something,

503
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: and all that's gone. And little did I know that

504
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: she had been found a long, long, long time ago.

505
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: And little did Maggie's family know that for years and years,

506
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: one man never gave up Sheriff Mike Nielsen, the Boone

507
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: County elected sheriff. Sheriff. Do you remember getting the news

508
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: that there was a DNA identification of Maggie. Oh, my goodness,

509
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: I was elated, yes, And in fact, when I got

510
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: that news, Maggie was buried in our Popera Cemetery for

511
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: all those years, which is right out in front of

512
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: our jail and administrative office, along with about one hundred

513
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: other folks that are buried there, some of them on identified,

514
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: but this is the main one. That I went out

515
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: to visit her on Mark Grave that day and for

516
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: the first time I got to call her Maggie, and

517
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: it was it was one of the most highlighted parts

518
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: of my career. Nansie Time stories with Nancy Grace. David Middleman,

519
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: DNA expert, the CEO of author Am Inc. You know David,

520
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: when you hear the people that are involved in the

521
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: cases that you see through a microscope. It's just got

522
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: to be the most encouraging thing to know how much

523
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: what you do means to people. It means the world

524
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: to us, and it was heartbreaking and heartwarming at the

525
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: same time to hear the words from her brother, you know,

526
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: at the press conference and to know that this was

527
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: important and that there's now going to be action taken

528
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: to try to figure out what happened that it was responsible.

529
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: David Middleman joining me AM eight. How do you make

530
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: this type of DNA analysis with degraded DNA, Well, there's

531
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: two steps. The first step is, you know, as as

532
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: many of who've already discussed, we're working with DNA that's

533
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: just in terrible shape. All forensic DANA is hard to

534
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: work with, but this is DNA that's just particularly hard.

535
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: So we've developed new methods, you know, that allow us

536
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: to get information from DNA even when it failed every

537
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: other method, and we generally only work on cases if

538
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: they've already failed every other method. And the second part

539
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: of it is that we use you know, things like

540
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: familial matching genealogical research. Those are like the family trees

541
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: you might use to find your relatives. We use those

542
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: kind of techniques adapted for forensics to help find the

543
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: nearest relatives. He's unknown because something people don't know is

544
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: the CODA system is very powerful for solving crimes and

545
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: for you know, catching the bad guys, but it was

546
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: never designed to tackle this problem of the unidentified. This

547
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: seventeen year old girl is a criminal who was not

548
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: in kodis. So what do you do for the unidentified?

549
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: Kotis will be designed for them. There's no tools available

550
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: if you can't recognize them. There's really no recourse but

551
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: to use DNA testing and try to find him. Demilindo

552
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: Middelman joining me. The brains behind Authram Inc. Who every

553
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: day brings closure and I don't know if there is

554
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: any such thing as closure, but at least brings answers

555
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: to grieving families. To Sheriff Nilsen, what can you tell

556
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: me about Maggie's family, Well, I met Maggie's brother. I

557
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: split up two teams, investigated teams. One went to Ohio

558
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: to track down her sister and one went to Texas

559
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: to track down her brother. I gotta tell you that

560
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: Orthram has been great to work with. There's been this

561
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: team that's worked on this over the years, and especially

562
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 1: Orthram has been awesome to work with, and they provided

563
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: this lead and once we got the DNA match from

564
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: them again, we were a static but it was the

565
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: beginning of trying then to track down the family members

566
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: and we were able to do that in the first

567
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: time I met her brother was when I knocked on

568
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: his office door in Texas, and it was very emotional.

569
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: He thought he was in trouble as I'm six foot seven,

570
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: about two hundred and ninety pounds and I show up

571
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: in a suit and a badge, and he thought he

572
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 1: was in trouble for some reason. But as we walked

573
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: back into his office and sat down with him and

574
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: his fiancee to explain why we were there, emotions overcame

575
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: both him and I and we shed a lot of

576
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: tears that day and a lot of communication. But that

577
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: was the first time I had met any of Magie's family.

578
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: Do you Jim Elliott, high profile lawyer out of Warner Robbins,

579
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: who's also been I believe the city attorney as well.

580
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: You know, Jim Elliott. It kind of makes me keep

581
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: going because we are so often disillusioned by elected officials.

582
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: They cheat, they scam, they embezzle, They only care about

583
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: re elect getting themselves reelected. And then when you hear

584
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: someone who actually cares about their job, who's suffering over

585
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: a case every single day, and who goes personally to

586
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: meet the family, that is so encouraging me to meet,

587
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: to keep trying. And I know you have certainly saying

588
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: your share of naughty politicians. You know you're right, Nancy,

589
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: And for today, I mean, I think you know that

590
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: these unsolved matters tend to haunt a lot of people.

591
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I want to comment on

592
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: is law enforcement lossers who would tire go back to

593
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: do volunteer work for their agency because they never had

594
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: the time to properly or to their mind, investigate to

595
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: the fullest extent possible some of these unsolved cases. I'm

596
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: impressed with people that could dedicate themselves to do that.

597
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: And I gotta say, Sheriff Nielsen never gave up. You know,

598
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, you and I at Crime Con we're highlighting, okay,

599
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: an unsolved murder, and you see firsthand every day how

600
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: victims families suffer. Now we've got an id on Maggie,

601
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: but we don't know who murdered her. Right, Well, I

602
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: just want to piggyback about Sheriff Nelson. First two Nancy

603
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: and what I respect what he did as technology advanced,

604
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: He went back. He didn't just say well, we've got

605
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: an autopsy, it's undetermined and I'm done it. He didn't

606
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: exume her want He exumed her twice. So when the

607
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: Clay Friends the Uti Street didn't work of her facial cognicians,

608
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: he went back and got isotope. He went back and

609
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: got DNA. He did everything he knew to do, and

610
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: then even with that DNA went to doctor Mittelman at Oorthram.

611
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what you have to do with these cases.

612
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 1: And I have a mantra, every tool on every case.

613
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: Every time. There's no reason not to go back. And

614
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: even if your budget doesn't allow it, there are some

615
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: people that will help you raise money and donate money

616
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: to get these testing done. Sheriff Nelson, why do you

617
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: believe that this is a homicide? I mean, obviously to

618
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: me that she's shut thrown on the side of the road,

619
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: partially naked, tells me that she was sex assaulted and murdered.

620
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: But what do you think the cod is going to

621
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: end up being sheriff. Well, we've always thought that she

622
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: was probably strangled, but because she was in the water,

623
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: that was really hard to find lea get your marks

624
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: in those tapes. But we're very confident that it's a

625
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: homicide and that she was dumped there, and there's a

626
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: lot of reasons behind that. And as I said in

627
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: the press release, this is now a homicide investigation, and

628
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: I hope that I have faith and we're going to

629
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: continue that commitment to Maggie and to lend me in

630
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: the rest of the family that we're going to solve.

631
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: We're going to solve this case, and we're going to

632
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: find out who did this. All these years after this

633
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: girl all the way from Toledo ends up in Boone County, Indiana,

634
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: her body does anyway. She was one of eight children

635
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: and her mom died before she ever knew what happened

636
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: to Maggie. She was murdered, we now know one month

637
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: before her eighteen birthday. We wait as justice unfalse. Nancy

638
00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: Grace Grom's story Sonny Off Goodbye Friend one