1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from house Stop 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey, wasn't the stuff to Blow your Mind? 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb Kianda. I'm Joe mcformer. You know, Joe, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: I have a three and a half year old in 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: the house and uh and I and I grew up 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: with two younger siblings, so I'm pretty familiar with whining. 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: I imagine you're pretty familiar with whining as well. You know, 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but I was once a kid 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: myself and familiar with whining from a personal perspective, and 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: also I had a younger sister, and so I heard 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: some whining there, and of course whining from the other 12 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: kids I knew. I actually just heard some whining recently, 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: I think when it was Halloween and there were I 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe you can judge whether this was whining 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: or not, UH listeners at home on on Halloween night. 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: It was a wonderful occasion when all the stuff to 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind people got together at my house. So 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: Robert was there with his child, and Noel was there 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: with his child, and Christian was there with his serial 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: killer mask and UH, and at one point I remember 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: I think there was some disagreement between parents and children 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: about whether it was time to go or then you 23 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: definitely heard whining. Was there whining? I'm not sure how 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: to classify it. There's so much whining in my life 25 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: at this point it's hard for me to remember specific 26 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: incidents of whining unless it's unless the material being whined 27 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: about is is really you know, sets itself apart. But yeah, 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm constantly saying, well, what's a nicer 29 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: way to say that? Or I can't understand you when 30 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: you talk in that whiny voice, which is one of 31 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: those things that I specifically remember hearing my parents say 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: to my younger sisters growing up. Now, of course they 33 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: were lying to you because they could understand you. They 34 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: just didn't want you to do it anymore. Right, It's 35 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: like the way that you were phrasing that is so 36 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: irritating and just so grating on my sanity that I 37 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: cannot acknowledge it. I refuse to listen to you while 38 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: you were talking in that whiny voice. So today we're 39 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: obviously going to be talking about the science of whining, 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: and whining actually does turn out to be a kind 41 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: of interesting feature of human communication. What is whining and 42 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: how is whining different from from talking, from crying from 43 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: all the other ways we communicate. Well, it's often described 44 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: as a combination of several different things, So there's an 45 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: element of pleading to it, demanding, pestering, and nagging that 46 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: escalates in pitch. It begins during infancy and peaks. Luckily, 47 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: it's good to know for me that there is a 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: peak to it between two point five and four years 49 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: of age. You know, it's funny because they say they 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: say it peaks, but I've read in some of the 51 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: studies that we're referencing in this episode that whining never 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: really stops, like you carry it into adulthood. Yeah. I 53 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: think it's just that most adults learned to curb it 54 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: and know that it sounds that they're ultimately humiliating themselves 55 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: and they're whining about something. And uh, for the most part, 56 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: it is a child whining at a caregiver, but ultimately 57 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: anyone is fair game. Well, usually I think whining goes 58 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: up right, you don't wind down. Parent doesn't whine at 59 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: the child, The boss doesn't whine at the employee. I mean, 60 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: maybe they would, but most of the time the whining 61 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: goes up. The superiority change. Yeah, so I've definitely heard 62 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: kids whining at other kids. I didn't want you to 63 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: take that, that sort of thing, I wanted to play 64 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: with that, etcetera. It comes from a from a perceived 65 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: position of disadvantage. You know, I say, like I've been 66 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: I've been taking advantage of I've got to wine at 67 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: the person who who, at least for now, is the 68 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: upper hand. Like a whining at another child is generally 69 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: immediately followed by whining at the nearest caregiver to point 70 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: out the slight that just took place. Yeah, yeah, she 71 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: took a sip out of my coke. I don't want that. 72 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: I don't like it. She has to give me hers now. 73 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it's everything like I wanted to 74 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: be the one to get the fork out of the drawer, 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: or I wanted to be the one to do this. 76 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to be the one to do that. It 77 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: just goes on forever. Yeah, I can't find my shoes. Yeah. 78 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: Uh So I was interested in how whining compares to 79 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: other methods of communication, and I actually found a study 80 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: from eleven that looked into this. It's sort of tried 81 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: to categorize different modes of attachment communication. That's something that 82 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: that often gets brought up a term, this attachment communication, 83 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: because it's not so much something that's likely to occur 84 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: between strangers. It's sort of a communication between child and caregiver, 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: or it plays on an existing relationship. But the paper 86 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: was called Screaming, yelling, whining and crying, Categorical and Intensity 87 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: Differences in vocal expressions of anger and sadness and Children's tantrums. Uh, 88 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: and so it was a two thousand eleven study that 89 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: tried to categorize the different types of noises young children 90 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: make while throwing tantrums. And they use high fidelity audio 91 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: sampling of natural emotional episode. So instead of having people 92 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: try to whine and then listening to what that's like, 93 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: they tried to say, okay, catch some kids whining in 94 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: the wild, and what does it sound like? And it 95 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: groups together under a couple of categories that they have 96 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: an anger category which includes screaming and yelling, and then 97 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: they have a sadness category that includes fussing, whining and crying, 98 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: and fussing, whining and crying ultimately end up being categorized 99 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: as three stages of escalating intensity and sadness. So you've 100 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: got a sadness episode that's mounting, and it starts with fussing, 101 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: which they describe as typically short, flat or falling melody, 102 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: relatively quiet and low pitched, so no, no, no. Then 103 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: you move up to whining, which they say typically contain 104 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: some verbal content with an up and down melody. May 105 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: also include relatively shrill, monotonous non verbal vocalization son, And 106 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: then of course you go to the old classic. Crying 107 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 1: is relatively loud and effort full, typically with up and 108 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: down melody. Breath may be interrupted, as in sobbing, similar 109 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: to an infant's cry. So they put whining here in 110 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: the middle of this spectrum of escalating sadness. I don't 111 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: know what you'd think about that as apparent yourself. I mean, 112 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: does that ring true to you? Um? Yeah, certainly. I 113 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: can see crying position making sense, but whining and fussing 114 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: is some Sometimes I feel like that's kind of a 115 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: toss up because it kind of comes down to can 116 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: I talk you down from a wine or down from 117 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: a fuss more easily like? Which? Which? Which is the shorter, 118 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: shorter route connecting it to normal modes of communication and 119 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: behavior and God, I feel like maybe whiny is easier 120 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: for me to to to deal with and fussy. Huh. 121 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's it's kind of a toss up. 122 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to think about it during my interactions. Uh. 123 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: From here hunt out take a scientific approach to your 124 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: child's low intensity distress. Yeah, and I even I have 125 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: to ask him as that it now is this a 126 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: fuss or whine? I need to know for the research. 127 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: Oh and another thing I just wanted to say was 128 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: that numerically in that study I just looked at across 129 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: the course of it, they recorded a thirteen different children 130 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: featuring multiple tantrum so there are a bunch of different 131 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: vocalization incidents recorded. They found that whining was by far 132 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: the most common of these five vocalizations yelling, screaming, fussing, whining, 133 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: and crying. There was way more whining than anything else. 134 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: That sounds about right. But surely somebody has tried to 135 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: come up with a sort of scientific theoretical explanation to 136 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: explain the nature of whining, where it comes from evolutionarily speaking, 137 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: and and how it fits into the broad or spectrum 138 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: of human communication and and caregiver to h caregiven communication 139 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: caregiv child. Yeah. Indeed, and there have been at least 140 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: a couple of good studies that we're going to discuss here. Um. 141 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: The first of which concerns mother ease. More mother ease 142 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: as in like Chinese like a language. Now well yeah, yeah, 143 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: essentially h. The more technical term is child directed speech 144 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: or cd S. Mother ease is the annoying way that 145 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: you might hear not only a mother, but a father, 146 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: any kind of caregiver speaking to a child in their charge. 147 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: So it's sort of a colloquial name like baby talk, right, 148 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of like baby talk. Um the and 149 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: and it's it's similar in many ways, uh to whining. 150 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: The two modes of speech seemed to have a lot 151 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: in common, though, Mother Rea's plays a definite role in attachment. 152 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: So Motheria's an example would be like, hey, honey, I 153 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: really need you to see about getting your socks on. Hey, honey, 154 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: we don't actually wear socks like that in this house. 155 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: So those would be two examples of mother EA's um. 156 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: And and hopefully when you encounter it, you're not encountering 157 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: an adult speaking to you in this way, because then 158 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 1: that that can be even extra annoying. Okay, So I'm 159 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: trying to note the sort of acoustic or sonic characteristics 160 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: of what you just did. For for the child directed speech, 161 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: one of the things was that it was slower than 162 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: you normally talk. Yes, you put a little more space 163 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: in there, and it sounded a little bit higher, like 164 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: you're elevating your pitch. Yeah. What's the other thing, It 165 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: almost has kind of a melody to it, right, Yeah, 166 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: there's a there's a melodic aspect to it, and in 167 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: early development that it's believe that the melodic maternal speech 168 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: functions uh uh more to to elicit and maintain attention 169 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: by accommodating the the infants very limited auditory and cognitive capabilities. 170 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: So in a sense that just the melody is being 171 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: used as a way to modulate the infants effective state 172 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: without having depended as much on the actual language, like 173 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: really the languages as much there for the the the 174 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: parent that it's speaking as anything. Okay, So those things 175 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: we just mentioned in the in the scientific terms would 176 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: be what they call slowed production, So slower talking, increased pitch, 177 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: and then um they say quote often flows into smooth, 178 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: exaggerated pitch contours. That's the melodic nature of it, right, Yeah, yeah, 179 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: I mean it's also you think of nursery rhymes too. 180 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: In this case, nursery rhymes are even more melodic and 181 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: ultimately musical. But uh, but it doesn't in the nursery rhyme, 182 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily matter for the young child what is 183 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: being said, which is why one of the reasons why 184 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: so many in nursery rhymes have horrific imagery in them 185 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: about animals pecking out each other's eyes. But but yeah, 186 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: the the idea here is that mother reason also serves 187 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: as a scaffolding for the early stag stages of lane 188 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: enguage acquisition. The actual words are irrelevant, but the melodic 189 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: tone is key. Okay, So they sort of use like 190 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: a parent would use this child directed speech pattern to 191 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: to manage or maintain the child's emotional or affective state. Yes, so, yeah, 192 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: it's about getting their attention and you know, thinking about 193 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: like in my home, we try as much as possible 194 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: to speak to our son more or less like he's 195 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: an adult. You know, not really do a bunch of 196 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: this mother ease, but you find yourself doing it, especially 197 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: if you need to captivate their attention, you just fall 198 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: back on it. But that's interesting. Then do you feel 199 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: like when you're when you're inexorably drawn towards using mother 200 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: ease or child directed speech, does that feel like a 201 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: cultural thing? Do you? Or do you? Do you feel 202 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: like that's in your bones, that's in your d n 203 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: A is at a function of your revolution? I mean 204 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: maybe both, because I because as I'm saying it, I'll realize, hey, this, 205 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: I remember my my my mom or my dad having 206 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: to talk like this with if not, if not with me, 207 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: then at least with my younger sisters. If I'm having 208 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: to say, hey, bash and I really need you to 209 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: get your clothes on right now and go, I really 210 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: don't like having to talk to you like this in 211 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: this crazy weird singsong voice. Uh. And it's you know, 212 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: I don't know it feel it feels as much part 213 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: of background as anything. But maybe it has evolutionary keys 214 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,959 Speaker 1: as well. But you know, one of the things about 215 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: the child directed speech that I saw come up in 216 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: the literature was how you would use different types of 217 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: of melodies or sort of u uh tone contours or 218 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: pitch contours to signal different attitudes towards the child. Yeah. 219 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: So on one hand, there's consistently rising contours that are 220 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: all about just electing attention, and that would be like like, hey, buddy, 221 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: it's time for us to see about getting our shoes 222 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: on so we can leave for today. And then there's 223 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: parents up prohibiting something. And then you see faster rising 224 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: on tours, which would be again like now, bastition, we 225 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: really don't wear socks like that in this house. So 226 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: as you see, it's still that very much that signature 227 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: Mothery's style, but faster rising contours. Oh Man, as an outsider, 228 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: I give that a doctor spock. Fascinating. But so we 229 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: got to bring it back to whining. What is the 230 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: link between child directed speech and whining? Well, there's a 231 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: two thousand five paper titled Whining as Mother directed Speech, uh, 232 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: and this it explored this connection of the potential connection 233 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: and this was published in Infinitial Development and it's the 234 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: work of Rosemarrie I. Socle, Karen L. Webster, Nicholas S. Thompson, 235 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: and David A. Stevens. So what they did is they 236 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: took eighteen undergrad students, seven males and eleven females. They 237 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: were these were all non parents, because previous studies had 238 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: had demonstrated that there was an equal effectiveness of whining 239 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: on non parents, and we'll actually don't have to have 240 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: just still get your brain, it'll still get you. There's no, 241 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. So they exposed these individuals to stimuli 242 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: of six renditions of the sentence I want to go 243 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: to Boston, each spoken by both the male and female, 244 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: and the addition, these were the modes of each rendition. 245 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: There was wine, you want to go to Boston, all right, 246 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: I think that was good, and then there's just the 247 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: neutral I want to go to Boston, which I'll supply 248 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: I want to go to Boston. Oh, there you go, 249 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: you got it, you got it for me? Oh no, no, 250 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, no, no realized, No, no, no, I'll 251 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: do the next one boasting, I want to go to 252 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: Boston someday I will, all right, now demanding, give me 253 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: a demanding I want to go to Boston. I want 254 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: to go to Boston, all right, And then the next 255 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: one question there would be uh, I want to go 256 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: to Boston, and then finally I want to go to Boston. Yeah, 257 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: there you go. That was a little whiny. Give me 258 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: more anger, I want to go to Boston. A little 259 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: very good at it, I guess, let me give it 260 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: a try. I want to go to Austin. Still a 261 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: little whiny on my part though, I don't know. Well, 262 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: we'll have to work that out in the actors studio 263 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: later on. But but so what they did is that 264 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: they yeah, they unleashed the different rendition. Now they are. 265 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: One of the funny things was they didn't actually have 266 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: kids doing it, right, it was young adult whiners. And 267 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: they said, quote, experience tells us that whining speech like 268 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: attachment relations does not disappear with the onset of adolescence 269 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: in adulthood, but continues to be used with intimates at 270 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: any age. Yichh. So yeah, so they said that it's 271 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: employed in any attachment partner or two superior figures in 272 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: a power relation. That's taying into the superiority thing we 273 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: were talking about earlier. Winding goes up the chain. But anyway, 274 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: they said adults were used because they could supply the 275 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: proper stimulus scripts better than children. So in each one 276 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: of these they also featured a stimulus sentence. So what 277 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: what is being said? What is happening that would it 278 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: elect this response? With its appropriate emotional flavoring UM and 279 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: then uh, the volunteers were asked to judge the similarity 280 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: of twenty two pairings UM again of the various the 281 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: various stimuli related to going to Boston, and sixty six 282 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: punt combinations of the twelve statements. So this at Following this, 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: there is a descriptive rating procedure in which the volunteers 284 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: had to rate the twelve statements in terms of various 285 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: qualities such as urgency, anger, loudness, etcetera. And then they 286 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: also took acoustic measurements of everything as well. And they 287 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: then they piled all this together into a three D 288 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: model of the resulting data UM. And this is what 289 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: they found that whining speech shared with Mothery's exaggerated pitch contours, 290 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: specifically of a rising pattern, increased pitch, and slowed production 291 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: in relation to adult directed or neutral speech. Okay, so 292 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: that sounds like it. It matches the main things we 293 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: observed earlier when talking about child directed speech. Yeah and interesting. 294 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: So in a way, Huh, I don't hear it in 295 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: my head, though I can see how it would be true, 296 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't equate when an adult talks to 297 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: a child in child directed speech. That doesn't sound like 298 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: whining to me, but I can see how it shares uh, 299 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: how it shares physical similarities. Yeah, well, because the parent 300 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: typically has order and reason on their side and the 301 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: child almost exclusively does not. The child, the parent is saying, 302 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: I need you to get dressed so we can go 303 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: to this thing that we go to every day at 304 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: the same time, and you inevitably have to go to 305 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: and the child is claiming, no, I want to eat 306 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: ice cream first before breakfast. The child is making the 307 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: particular statements, Yeah, it's fussing. Was whining about something that's 308 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: completely pointless and it has no reason or order on 309 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: the side of their argument. Now, one of the things 310 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: we talked about earlier was why it's it's hypoth decized 311 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: why mother mother ease or child directed speech sounds this way, 312 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: And originally one idea was to accommodate the infants underdeveloped 313 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: auditory system. But they talk about how whining is directed 314 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: at adults with fully functioning hearing. You know, adults wine 315 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: at each other sometimes. So the authors speculate that if 316 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: we toss out this older hypothesis and just say that 317 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: both whining and mother's exploit inherent sensitivities in the human 318 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: nervous system. That might make sense. Yeah, that makes sense 319 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: to me. I mean it's it's about what what mode 320 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: of communication is going to elect the most response. Yeah, 321 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: and it's gonna in A whining child cannot be ignored. 322 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: Um or whining child can be ignored, but at great difficulty. Yes, 323 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: it certainly cannot be ignored. I mean I have had 324 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: the experience being out in public and hearing somebody else's 325 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: child wine, and it's just uh, I mean, it's utterly 326 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: attention stealing. You can't think about an anything else while 327 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: it's happening, you know. And here's something interesting. It's easy again, 328 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: the parent is coming from a side of reason and order, 329 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: and the child is generally speaking on behalf of chaos 330 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: and uh and and just unreasonable nonsense. And yet, according 331 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: to a two thousand twelve Max Plaque Institute for Evolutionary 332 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: Anthropology study published in the American Psychological Association, children as 333 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: young as three can distinguish between pure whining and a 334 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: legitimate need for assistance and or sympathy. So they can 335 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: they can deduce whether somebody's whining is justified. Yeah, like 336 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: one kid is whining, the kids standing next to them 337 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: can probably tell that it's b S. How did how 338 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: did they test this? Okay? They took forty eight children, 339 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: They split them easily between girls and boys from thirty 340 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: six to thirty nine months old, and then they recorded 341 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: reactions of each child as he or she witnessed an 342 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: adult acting upset in one of three contexts. When the 343 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: distress was justified, let's due to physical harm, material loss, 344 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: or unfairness, when it was unjustified, and when the cause 345 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: of the distress was unknown. Okay, So they had something 346 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: like um, an adult getting an unfair distribution of toys 347 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: like marbles exactly, Yeah, or I liked this one. An 348 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: adult getting their drawing cut in half with scissors. They 349 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: drew something and somebody cuts it up. Or an adult 350 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: getting getting a toy chest lid knocked, getting knocked on 351 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: the hands with it. So getting injured or losing a 352 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: balloon was another one. Newly acquired healing balloon floats up 353 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: and it's gone. Okay, So those are the justified ones, 354 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: but there were also unjustified things where nothing really bad 355 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: happened to the adult, but the children could tell the difference. Yeah, 356 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: they could, They could level the the amount of character judgment, 357 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 1: threat assessment, emotional assessment, and empathy necessary to say, Hey, 358 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: you're getting upset over nothing, or yeah, that's awful, your 359 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: balloon just totally floated away. That's a bummer man. So 360 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: let's say you've got a child with two balloons and 361 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: an adult with one balloon, and the adult loses the balloon. 362 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: Does the child give one of the one of the 363 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: one of his or her balloons to the adult? Well, 364 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: that might depend on whether they saw the adult overreacting 365 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: to nothing earlier, or whining in response to something legitimately 366 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: unfair happening to him or her. Yeah, and then in 367 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: the case of balloon related stress, the child would offer 368 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: a balloon more quickly to the adult if the child 369 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: had previously seen that adult upset due to true harm 370 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: rather than a near inconvenience. That that's interesting that that 371 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: a child has that level of judgment. But also this 372 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: makes a distinction between legitimate whining and illegitimate whining. And 373 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: I wonder about that because a funny thing I discovered 374 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: when I was trying to find scientific research on whining 375 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: is that a lot of the journal articles you can 376 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: find about whining seemed to be coming from a business 377 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: management or business philosophy perspective. If you came across I did. 378 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: I certainly came across a lot of uses for the 379 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: word whining that we're not related to to childhood development, 380 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: as in meaning that whining is a non productive expression 381 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: of distress, and that sort of fits with how I 382 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: would use it colloquially. Colloquially like if I'm not talking 383 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: about the way a child develops, but if I'm just 384 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: talking about an adult whining, it's a it's a person 385 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: who's just they're not getting anywhere that they don't have 386 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: a legitimate complaint, they're just, you know, they're just being 387 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: distressed for no good reason. Obviously, we all agree that 388 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: that a person, an adult or child, can cry to 389 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: signal a meaningful deprivation or violation, something bad has happened, 390 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: that that actually matters, and they will cry about that. 391 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: But can a wine signal the same or as a 392 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: wine fundamentally inherently unjustified, and if they there's a good 393 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: cause for it, do we call the wine something else? Yeah? 394 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: I found myself thinking back on various outburst from my son, 395 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: trying to decide Okay, I remember him whining about this, 396 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: was that justified? And I'm really having a hard time 397 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: thinking of a case where the wine was justified. The 398 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: only possible example I can think of, and and not 399 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: specific example, but there may have been times where there's 400 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: been a slight to him by accidents, sort of like 401 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: say I didn't give him a you know, a snack 402 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: when I'm handing them out, just because I overlooked him 403 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: and he catches onto that. He might have whined about it. 404 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: But for the most part, things that are legitimately worth 405 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: getting upset about, like the cat scratching him, are going 406 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: to instantly go to like a fuss level or crying 407 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: level of outburst. But if we go with the the 408 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: the escalation from earlier, the wine is in the middle, 409 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: So it's either lower as a fuss or higher as 410 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: a cry or do you not go with the same escalation. 411 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not sure I completely buy that that escalation graph. 412 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: I feel like it might be a slightly different or 413 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: more complex roadmap, because yeah, like if the cat scratches him, 414 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: he's not gonna say the cat scratch me, He's gonna 415 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: outburst about it, or like he's going to be more 416 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: likely to whine and say something like like the cats 417 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: sitting in my spot on the couch and I don't 418 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: like that. So I don't know if that's helpful or not. 419 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: But anyway, you gotta stand up to that cat. Yeah, 420 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: you gotta look that cat right in the eye and 421 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: say you have four legs, the couch doesn't belong to you. Well, 422 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: good luck, because the cat has the clause. Okay, Well, 423 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: let's look at exactly how annoying whining is according to science. Yeah, 424 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: and I think this is a good one to hit, 425 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: uh last of all in this episode, because it really 426 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: helps us to underlie the raw power of whining. So 427 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: there's a two thousand and eleven study that came from 428 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: the psychologists from Sonny and Clark University published in the 429 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: Journal of Social, Evolutionary and Cultural Psychology. And this is 430 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: this involves at least one of the same researchers for 431 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: that we've talked about earlier. Rosemarie so called it does, 432 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: and I believe Nicol says Thompson as well. Um. The 433 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: title of the article wines, cries, and motheries their relative 434 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: power to distract. So the researchers set out to see 435 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: if humans, including non parents, are hardwired to be more 436 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: attuned to whining. So isw it all broke down? Volunteers 437 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: were asked to try and complete a set of math 438 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: problems while wearing headphones, and six different soundscapes were pumped 439 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: into those headphones. You had toddler wines, you had baby cries, 440 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: you had mother ease, you had two adults in a 441 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: normal conversation. You had a screeching table saw. And then 442 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,239 Speaker 1: you had the deep sound of silence, and you had 443 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: lew Reid's mental machine music. That would that would have 444 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: been an interesting addition. So and also just to drive 445 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: home to all, actual speech was in the was in 446 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: a language unfamiliar to the volunteers, So that way they 447 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: couldn't be semantically distracted, right, They had had to be 448 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: based in the pitch and and just the sound. The 449 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: acoustic qualities of the sample couldn't be that the words 450 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: the selves were captivating, right, So this is These are 451 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: the results. Volunteers completed the fewest problems and made the 452 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: most mistakes while trying to block out the sign of 453 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: a sound of a whiny infant. This was regardless regardless 454 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: of gender or parental status. The err rate was nearly 455 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: twice that of trying to work with a screeching table saw. 456 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: And it's also worth knowing that mother eas and baby 457 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: cries were also fairly distracting. The researchers positive that this 458 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: demonstrates an evolutionary importance of whining to attract attention of 459 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: a parent or caregiver. Well, that's interesting to compare because 460 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: so obviously whining commands our attention. But as the last 461 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: study showed, we can even children and probably much more 462 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: so adults can easily recognize the I don't know what 463 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: you call the the lack of importance or the lack 464 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: of justification behind lots of whining, if not all whining. Yeah, 465 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: And I feel like this is where it's important to 466 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: focus on something that psychologists in gear of evos pointed 467 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: out and that there's likely a naturalistic fallacy at play here. 468 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: So just because this is the idea that just because 469 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: something is a natural product of our evolution, it doesn't 470 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: mean that it's a good thing. Oh, this is this 471 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: is a common reaction I see to Uh, I don't know, 472 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: studies about human nature, human evolution, or speculations based in 473 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: evolutionary psychology is that they sort of point out humans 474 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: tendency to do something that we don't like as natural, 475 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: and then people react like, oh, so you're saying it's good. 476 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean natural doesn't mean good. Lots of natural things 477 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: are bad. Yeah, So in this case, it was. This 478 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: is basically my my take home on it. If you're 479 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: looking at it based on the information we've discussed here, 480 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: based on the caveat that it it may be a 481 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: naturalistic fallacy, something that's that's a product of our evolution, 482 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: but not necessarily helpful in and of itself. It sounds 483 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: to me like crying, of course, is a necessary means 484 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: by which an infant, young child, or even an adult 485 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: alerts others to its dire need. And it whining and 486 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: mother ease, to a certain extent, are essentially crying poured 487 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: into the mold of language, becomes a mode of speaking 488 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: and a way to bait our words with the un 489 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: ignorable power of a crying infant left out in the cold. 490 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: So anytime you hear a caregiver and a child speaking 491 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: to each other, it's essentially two individuals crying at each 492 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: other with words. Man. That's that's my my take home 493 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: on all this. That's profound or disturbing. You know that 494 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: this is a grown up in a child just crying 495 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: at each other, but it's crying that's complicated by language. Well, 496 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: I imagine that's a lot of what's happening a lot 497 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: of the time in a in a household with children, 498 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: because I mean, the presence of children just ups the 499 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: stakes in every possible way, right, Like suddenly when you've 500 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: got a kid with you, things that would normally be 501 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit frustrating can become dire. Suddenly this 502 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: is so important. Yeah, and then everything's just harder getting 503 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: out the door, harder to do. Yeah. I mean you 504 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: saw when I was over there for Halloween, Bastim just 505 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: getting back out of out of your house and leaving 506 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: for the evening. Is is this this whole ordeal that 507 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: has to be coordinated with with with with Noel and 508 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: his daughter leaving, and we're both leaving at the same time, 509 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: so that nobody's unfair. It's not unfair. Everybody's got a 510 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: completely equal shake. In the end of Halloweing, you know, 511 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: I was wondering about the question of why inherently we 512 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: find whining and crying so unbearable, Like you'll do anything 513 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: to make it stop. Uh, And you see this a 514 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: lot of times, parents just caving into what seemed like 515 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,959 Speaker 1: ridiculous demands from their children just to make the whining stop. 516 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: And I wonder. I mean, one obvious thing is that 517 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: it's fear of social embarrassment. Right, Like you're out in 518 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: public and your kids starts whining, and you know you're 519 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: you're embarrassed. Everybody is looking at you. You feel like 520 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: you're annoying everyone, and and that's a problem. But it 521 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: seems like, uh, this would only make sense for whining 522 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: and crying in public. Public situations might sort of increase 523 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: the urgency of our need to stop the whining. But 524 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: I imagine it still happens in private. You're in the 525 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: privacy of your own home, and still the child is 526 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: whining and you need to make it stop. Oh yeah, yeah, 527 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: it didn't matter if anybody's listening. Just whine. You just 528 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: the whining must stop. Please stop the whining. Tell me 529 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: what you need to tell me in a normal voice, 530 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: and we'll discuss it rationally. One hypothesis that I know 531 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: I've read somewhere before. Before the episode, I was trying 532 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: to figure out where I had read this, and I can't. 533 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if it was in um one of Richard 534 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: Dawkins biology books from years ago, you know, like if 535 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: it was in The Selfish Gene or The Blind Watchmaker. 536 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: But there there is an example of how sort of 537 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: the generational evolutionary arms race between parents and offspring. And 538 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: one of one of the examples to us there was 539 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: about piercing bird chirps. What's happening when a chick in 540 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: a bird's nest chirps with this piercing tone until it 541 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: gets fed or gets the attention it needs, gets the 542 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:20,239 Speaker 1: help or whatever it wants from the parent. I know 543 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: one possible way you could think about this is that 544 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: the chick is threatening death. The chick is saying, I'm 545 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: going to keep getting louder and higher pitched until I'm 546 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: threatening to draw predators to the nest, and you must 547 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: give me what I want or I'm going to kill 548 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: us all. I I don't know if you can pourt 549 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: that kind of intuition to thinking about human crying, but 550 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: it makes a certain kind of intuitive sense. I mean, 551 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't begin to say that that's actually the explanation. 552 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: It seems like there are a lot of factors involved there, 553 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: But is that sort of the deep biological feeling of 554 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: what's happening when when you're a parent and your child 555 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: is whining, do you feel predators approaching? Do you feel 556 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: doom looming in? Uh? Maybe a little bit. Maybe. I 557 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: often think about Corman McCarthy's The Road and uh, you know, 558 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: the father and son hiding in the bushes, hoping that 559 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: the villains don't discover them, the cannibals. And I'm thinking, 560 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, if over there with my son, he might 561 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: start whining about something, and then what am I gonna do? Yeah? 562 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: Do I just got I have to give in completely 563 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: to the whining, otherwise the cannibals will eat us. That's 564 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: why you gotta carve those wood bullets. That's why you 565 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: gotta do it and put up a good bluff. So 566 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: we know this is a topic that almost all of 567 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna have some feedback on. If you're a parent, 568 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: if you're you just had siblings, are you just around 569 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: kids at any point in the course of your life, Uh, 570 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: then you're gonna want to share your thoughts in this 571 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: so hey, and you can always finds stuff about your 572 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: mind dot com. That's where we'll find Our podcast episodes 573 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: are video or blog coast and Hey, if you want 574 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: to reach out to us via email, how can you 575 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: do it, Joe? You can let us know your thoughts 576 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: about the science of whining or your favorite personal whining 577 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: and crying story. It blow the mind. It how stuff 578 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 579 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.