WEBVTT - Harvard’s Tribe on Why Impeachment Is Necessary

0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:09.680
<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.200
<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.160
<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.919
<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. As the impeachment

0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.480
<v Speaker 1>inquiry moves forward, this morning on Twitter, President Trump dared

0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:27.200
<v Speaker 1>House Democrats to quote try to impeach this over a

0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:32.720
<v Speaker 1>largely read election map. My guest is renowned constitutional scholar

0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Lawrence tribe Of, professor at Harvard Law School. His latest

0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.400
<v Speaker 1>book is To End a Presidency about the power of impeachment.

0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much for joining us again, Larry, My pleasure.

0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.400
<v Speaker 1>So when we spoke last year about impeachment, you advised

0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.440
<v Speaker 1>proceeding with caution seeing how the president reacts to an

0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.960
<v Speaker 1>investigation by Democrats. Have we reached the point where you

0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.880
<v Speaker 1>think impeachment is warranted? I think it's warranted, and I

0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.760
<v Speaker 1>think it's in this inscible, the country has clearly crossed

0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:07.120
<v Speaker 1>the rubicon. I was cautious, but not cowardly, and it

0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:11.320
<v Speaker 1>seems to me that just as Nancy Pelosi was insistent

0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.600
<v Speaker 1>on proceeding in a methodical manner. Having done that, we

0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:17.880
<v Speaker 1>are now at a place where the President has shown

0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:22.440
<v Speaker 1>himself to be an active danger, clear and present danger

0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.440
<v Speaker 1>to the Republic. He's willing to get foreign adversaries to

0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.479
<v Speaker 1>do his bidding. He's willing to pressure for an allies

0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.160
<v Speaker 1>like Ukraine in order to benefit for an adversaries and

0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.880
<v Speaker 1>dig up dirt on his own political opponents. He's clearly

0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.720
<v Speaker 1>shown that he doesn't understand or believe in the American

0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Constitution or the rule of law. He is now a

0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.680
<v Speaker 1>danger to national security because he's trying to out the

0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:54.960
<v Speaker 1>identity of a whistleblower who's protected precisely so that our

0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:59.960
<v Speaker 1>system of intelligence gathering can work effectively. We've now learn

0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.080
<v Speaker 1>earned that he gave up critical national secrets about the

0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.400
<v Speaker 1>identity of someone who was undercover for the government of

0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Israel in getting information about Isis. He's endangering the country

0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.000
<v Speaker 1>and he's doing it by abusing his powers as president.

0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.280
<v Speaker 1>This is no longer cover up hush money for a

0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.240
<v Speaker 1>sex scandal in the lead up to the election. This

0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.000
<v Speaker 1>is now the president using his powers as president to

0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:32.120
<v Speaker 1>undermine the Republic to benefit himself. It's exactly what the

0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.240
<v Speaker 1>framers of the Constitution James Madison and others said we

0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:41.519
<v Speaker 1>would need someday to remove the president over and that

0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.520
<v Speaker 1>day has now come. In your up ed in the

0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Guardian this week, you're right that if the House is

0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.640
<v Speaker 1>going to impeach the president, it better have a plan.

0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.760
<v Speaker 1>How should the House proceed in light of the president

0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:58.160
<v Speaker 1>and his administration, including today the Secretary of State continuing

0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.520
<v Speaker 1>to stone Wall. I think it's queer, and I think

0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.839
<v Speaker 1>that Speaker Pelosi is on board with this. I think

0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.800
<v Speaker 1>it's clear that stonewalling will no longer do. We're not

0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.400
<v Speaker 1>going to play their game and just take them to

0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:14.080
<v Speaker 1>court and wait while courts take this week time over things.

0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.079
<v Speaker 1>We're going to say stonewalling equals guilt equals impeach ability.

0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.600
<v Speaker 1>So that when Pompeio says, how dare you ask my

0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.920
<v Speaker 1>state department officials to testify or turn over documents? How

0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.600
<v Speaker 1>dare you question me even though I hid the fact

0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.560
<v Speaker 1>that I was on that extortion at call between the

0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:39.320
<v Speaker 1>President and the leader of Ukraine Zelinsky, We're going to answer.

0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Just watch us. We're going to not wait. We're going

0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:48.600
<v Speaker 1>to say that these acts of resisting legitimate congressional inquiry

0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.280
<v Speaker 1>are themselves impeachable. That was, after all, article free of

0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.560
<v Speaker 1>the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon. And Richard Nixon,

0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.280
<v Speaker 1>if fuel pardon the expression, was just a piker compared

0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.839
<v Speaker 1>to this. You know, he had his own little plumbers unit,

0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:06.120
<v Speaker 1>but he didn't outsource his attempt to squash his enemies

0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.920
<v Speaker 1>to foreign governments. This is unbelievably close to what George

0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.200
<v Speaker 1>Washington warned us about at the very beginning of the Republic,

0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.960
<v Speaker 1>that in a world of serpents, we might end up

0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:22.719
<v Speaker 1>being stung and lethally. So if we link our fate

0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.000
<v Speaker 1>to foreign powers, we need to preserve our sovereignty from

0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.960
<v Speaker 1>the kinds of foreign entanglements that this president is engaging in.

0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.599
<v Speaker 1>And the irony is he says that a ragtag group

0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.600
<v Speaker 1>of refugees coming in from the southern border threatened our sovereignty,

0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.080
<v Speaker 1>when the real threat to our sovereignty is named Donald J. Trump.

0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.920
<v Speaker 1>I want to get into some specifics about the articles

0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:48.360
<v Speaker 1>of impeachment themselves. Speaker Nancy Pelosi seems to be indicating

0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.040
<v Speaker 1>a narrow focus on the Ukraine events as opposed to

0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.960
<v Speaker 1>a broader focus on Trump's presidency, which is the best course.

0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.720
<v Speaker 1>I think the Speaker has it exactly right. People are

0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:05.919
<v Speaker 1>not interested in playing the game of spinning out all

0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.600
<v Speaker 1>of the terrible things this president has done that could

0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.279
<v Speaker 1>take us forever. You know, by the time we were done,

0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.240
<v Speaker 1>he would be into the fourth term of the presidency

0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.440
<v Speaker 1>that he believes never needs to end. We need to

0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.760
<v Speaker 1>focus on the fact that he has betrayed the country.

0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.840
<v Speaker 1>He's endangered our national security, he's extorted an ally, he's

0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.120
<v Speaker 1>played ball with an enemy. It's not technically treason. He

0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.919
<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem to know that the definition of treason doesn't

0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.800
<v Speaker 1>apply to anything that's going on now. But it's awfully treacherous,

0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.520
<v Speaker 1>and I think Nancy Pelosi is right in zeroing in

0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.080
<v Speaker 1>on it, which is why she is right to give

0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.159
<v Speaker 1>the primary responsibility for the hearings about impeachment to the

0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:49.080
<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Committee under Adam Schiff. I think that although I

0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.839
<v Speaker 1>suggested in one of the op eds I wrote in

0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.840
<v Speaker 1>the last couple of days that the Judiciary Committee might

0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.560
<v Speaker 1>also hold hearings, I've had second thoughts about whether that

0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.200
<v Speaker 1>is even necessary. It's aims to me that it would

0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.360
<v Speaker 1>be redundant, that it would be time wasting. We need

0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.800
<v Speaker 1>now not to abuse the public's patients. People are concerned

0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.279
<v Speaker 1>about bread and butter issues. They don't want the impeachment

0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.719
<v Speaker 1>and removal of this president to take an indefinite amount

0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.800
<v Speaker 1>of time. We need to bring it to a close

0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.320
<v Speaker 1>this year. In the case of President Nixon and also

0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.479
<v Speaker 1>in the case of President Clinton, the Judiciary Committee work

0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:29.599
<v Speaker 1>for months on drafting the articles of impeachment. Democratic lawmakers

0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.800
<v Speaker 1>are talking about drafting one or more articles in a

0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.359
<v Speaker 1>matter of weeks. I can help them do it in

0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.000
<v Speaker 1>a matter of days. People like me, who have written

0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.760
<v Speaker 1>books about this, have studied it for decades, don't really

0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.240
<v Speaker 1>need weeks or months to draft articles of impeachment. This

0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:49.760
<v Speaker 1>guy has virtually drafted his own articles of impeachment, and

0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm eager to get started helping Congress do it. Finally,

0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:54.960
<v Speaker 1>we just have about a minute here. You also say

0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.320
<v Speaker 1>the House might just reach a verdict on its own

0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.600
<v Speaker 1>and not refer the matter to the Senate. How would

0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.120
<v Speaker 1>that war, Well, it was an off ramp that I

0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.640
<v Speaker 1>was considering, and I don't think it should be ruled out.

0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.479
<v Speaker 1>If it had turned out, for example, that Mitch McConnell

0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.880
<v Speaker 1>would deep six the articles of impeachment and not really

0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.920
<v Speaker 1>give them a fair hearing, the House could simply pay

0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.120
<v Speaker 1>attention to the president's defense and reach its own conclusions

0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.920
<v Speaker 1>about his high crimes and misdemeanors. That remains a possibility,

0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.960
<v Speaker 1>but as of yesterday, the Majority Leader, Mitch McConnell has

0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.520
<v Speaker 1>said that under the rules of the Senate that he

0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.920
<v Speaker 1>says are binding, he needs to have a vote and

0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.280
<v Speaker 1>a real trial. Now, he did say that the trial

0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.080
<v Speaker 1>could be a quickie proceeding, and that worries me a little.

0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.800
<v Speaker 1>If it looks like it's going to be a fixed

0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.760
<v Speaker 1>verdict and a done deal, then maybe the House should

0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.520
<v Speaker 1>reconsider exactly what it does. But once the House concludes

0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.240
<v Speaker 1>that the president has committed high crimes and misdemeanors, it

0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.400
<v Speaker 1>would be hard pressed the way matters have now evolved,

0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.960
<v Speaker 1>for it to prevent the Senate from conducting the trial

0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.960
<v Speaker 1>that the Constitution contemplates. And thank you so much, we'll

0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.640
<v Speaker 1>have to leave it there. That's Lawrence Tribe, professor at

0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Harvard Law School, is book to End to Presidency. Thanks

0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.840
<v Speaker 1>for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe

0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.120
<v Speaker 1>and listen to the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and

0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:18.640
<v Speaker 1>on Bloomberg dot com. Slash podcast I'm June Brosso. This

0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:19.720
<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg,