1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And today we're talking about a 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: word that I learned not too long ago, and that 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: is fem phobia. It sounds scary, Yes it is, No, 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, it is because it is insidious and 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: it is creeping around in so many different places. And 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: before we get into what I consider to be one 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: of the most challenging examples of fem phobia, let's talk 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: about what it is and why we are bringing it up. Yes, 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: film phobia is defined as the devaluation, fear, and hate 12 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: it of the feminine. So anything that is traditionally feminine 13 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: related or related to femininity. Um, whether that's like softness 14 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: and emotions and sensitivity, etcetera, or just like things like 15 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: the color pink and high heels. It's just hating on 16 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: all those things. Yeah. And Julius Serrano, who wrote Whipping Girl, 17 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: I don't know she coined fem phobia, but she has 18 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: been a catalyst for a lot of conversations about fem phobia. 19 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: She writes about it more within the context of transgender 20 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: issues and feminism, but from just kind of a bird's 21 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: eye view. Uh. Skep Chick also wrote about this, and 22 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: and she defines it as a subset of sexism that 23 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: suggests that femininity and other things regarded as feminine are 24 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: inherently inferior. In other words, one example is that she's 25 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: actually skep Chick brought up was these science kits. I 26 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: believe they were put out in by a British company. 27 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: One was cool and gadgets and neat things for boys, 28 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: and the other one was pink, and it was four girls, 29 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: and everyone flipped out because the other one was pink, 30 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: and by virtue of the color pink and the femininity 31 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: associated with it, people freaked out about it. Kind of 32 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: the same kind of thing with the Lego Friends line 33 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: that we talked about a while ago, right, like questioning 34 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: why it needs to be separate, separate and a different color. 35 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: But the argument is made, like it was made for Legos, 36 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: if it gets girls interested in doing science, like if 37 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: they buy the science kit because it's pink, you know, 38 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: if it gets them interested, is that a bad thing? Right? 39 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: And then it's the whole issue two of this, Uh, 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 1: Because if you think about fem phobia really The troubling 41 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: part that is underlying it is the fact that masculinity 42 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: and masculine attributes are seen as a positive for everybody. 43 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: For instance, a tomboy is okay, but a sissy is 44 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: something that is totally not okay. Uh you know, just 45 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: in general, it's okay for a woman to do masculine things, 46 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: but a lot of times it's not okay for Amanda 47 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: do traditionally feminine things or exhibit feminine traits. Even down 48 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: to the clothing that we wear. There were there was 49 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: that photo of the dad in Germany who was wearing 50 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: a skirt out with his young son who was wearing 51 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: a dress, kind of in solidarity, just to say hey, 52 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: it's okay. In this one image, even on our Facebook page, 53 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: stirred enormous controversy in the way that a mom wearing 54 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: trousers certainly would not. And while that might seem like 55 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: a benign example, it's I don't know. I think the 56 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: fact that it is so could seem so benign is 57 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: the fact that it's also uh so pervasive. Well, so 58 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: there's the societal thing of like it's okay. And we've 59 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: talked about this a lot in the podcast. You know, 60 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: it's okay for girls to like masculine things but not 61 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: vice versa. But then there's the whole like within womanhood 62 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: kind of thing that we're talking about. Um. For instance, 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: the writer over at skep Chic when she was talking 64 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: about this pink science kit she was you know, horrified by, 65 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: and she was horrified by a lot of other things 66 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: kind of along those lines, the pink toys or whatever. 67 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: And she talks about a lot of women who she 68 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: considered other. You know, she didn't want to be one 69 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: of quote those girls with their pink and their cattiness 70 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: and their girliness. Definitely putting up a wall and saying 71 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: your other I don't like you. You're not the kind 72 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: of woman that I want to associate with. Yeah, because 73 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: you're not. It's it's not taken as seriously. And so 74 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: going back to to Julius Serrano, author of Whipping Girl, 75 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: she talks about how culture is replacing the fear and 76 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 1: hatred of women we would typically think of as outright 77 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: sexism with the fear and hatred of things commonly associated 78 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: with women. Which one of the reasons why I wanted 79 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: to to bring this up on the podcast is that 80 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: I feel like it's such a slippery slope and so 81 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: much easier for that to happen and for it not 82 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: to be called out as problematic, compared to just saying, hey, 83 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: women are inferior. Hey that's wrong, you know, gender equity. 84 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: Come on. But when it gets into all these cultural 85 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: associations that we have in valuing the masculine over the feminine, 86 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: saying that one is one is strong while the other 87 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: is weak. Is it's just a different brand of sexism, 88 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: I guess we could say. And then there's this whole 89 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: idea of tying um femininity and feminism together. How they're 90 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: sometimes at odds, and not all people who call themselves 91 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: feminists want to be associated with femininity. They think it's 92 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of a negative thing because it's a creation of 93 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: the patriarchy, like this whole pink womanhood saying it's it's 94 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: all created by the patriarchy to keep us down. You're 95 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: only pleasing men, you're only trying to be sexy for men. 96 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: It's a means of controlling women. And over at skeptic 97 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: they point out, you know, we do have to keep 98 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: in mind that for many across gender identities, femininity can 99 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: be a natural empowering or even depending on who you 100 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: are and how you were raised, a radical identity. Yeah, 101 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: and this isn't something that we are going to get 102 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: in depth on this episode, but this links to the 103 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: concept of intersectionality um that Julius Rono again talks a 104 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: lot about, and how femphobia and this uh sort of 105 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: devaluation of the feminine isn't so much just a danger 106 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: for sis gender females, which are people who are born 107 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: and assigned female at birth and uh and adopt that 108 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: those those gendered qualities. It's not just a problem for 109 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: for that set, it's also a problem for really anybody 110 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: because it creates, um, it reinforces a gender binary. It 111 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: again like dictates like what gender performance is and is 112 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: not okay, which is stronger, which is better? And um. 113 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: When we start shaking our fingers at something that might 114 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: seem to dainty or too fally, I think that it's 115 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: worth stopping for a moment and wondering why that is 116 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: such a problem. And for a good breakdown of this, 117 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: there is a post by Ozzy France that you can 118 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: find at the Good Men Project dot com and it's 119 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: called no, Seriously, what about Timmins? And that's t e 120 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: h M E n Z. And this was where I 121 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: first read about theem phobia UM and Ozzie points out 122 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: that it's possible to critique feminity without critiquing feminine people 123 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: and uh, for me personally, one of the reasons why 124 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about fem phobia is because we 125 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: spend lots of time in the lady blogosphere and in 126 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: my personal experience, I think there's a lot of fem 127 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: phobia going on about ladies Hayden ladies for liking to 128 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: be ladies and even using the word lady. And this 129 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: is just one and this is just one example, let 130 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: me clarify that. But I think it's one to call 131 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: out because for our listeners at least I have a 132 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: feeling it's something that we might all be familiar with. Yeah, 133 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: and before we dive into some specific examples of columns 134 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: and stuff that we have found, UM, I do think 135 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: it's there seems to be this pervasive attitude of like, well, 136 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: you're not doing a very good job representing women. And 137 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: to that when I when I read post like that, 138 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you can get caught up in the snark 139 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: and the humor of it. All that I feel like 140 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: reminding some of these writers, you know, not everything has 141 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: to be for everyone, and not every site that is 142 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: dedicated to women has to be dedicated to all women, 143 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: And you, as a woman, don't have to read it. 144 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: Just because a woman created it and created it for 145 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: other women doesn't mean that it's representative of women. So 146 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: we shouldn't. I feel like we shouldn't get so sensitive 147 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: if we don't like that a blog post is about 148 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: polka dots, for instance, um, because maybe there just is 149 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: a pokea dot loving audience out there right uh. And 150 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: and most recently, as for people who frequently visit our 151 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: Facebook or our tumbler might know one thing that one 152 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: example of I'm gonna go ahead and call it femphobia 153 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: that has come up recently online that really got my 154 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: wheels of spinning and my fingers of type in was 155 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: a post over at Jezebel by a her for the 156 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: HBO show Girls, huge phenomenal success. Everybody's talking about Girls 157 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: and kind of in a similar way of saying, Hey, 158 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: Lena Dunham, creator of Girls, what are you going to 159 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: say for an entire generation of twenty something women, to 160 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: which she said, I don't know sex is weird. Uh. 161 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: And so Deborah Shoneman, who's a writer for girls, wrote, actually, 162 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: she wrote an entire um e book based on this 163 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: concept she came up with called The Woman Child, and 164 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: the Jezwell column was an excerpt from that e book. 165 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: And the woman child, as you might imagine, is, according 166 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 1: to Debb, can I call you Deb, I'll call you deb. 167 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: According to deb is the female equivalent to the man child, 168 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: like it's the whole Judd Apatow, Seth Rogan, guy stuck 169 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: in arrested development, can't get his life together and usually 170 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: needs like a woman like Katherine Heigel to come around 171 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: and maybe get pregnant. And okay, wait, no, this is 172 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: just the plot of NAKA, but you get what I'm saying. 173 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: So she she writes this, uh, this post railing against 174 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: woman children who she would include in that list like 175 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: Zoe Deschanelle, Katy Perry, Nicki minaj and and essentially makes 176 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: this laundry list of all of the ways that women 177 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,359 Speaker 1: are not being woman enough, that we are keeping ourselves 178 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: down and infantilizing ourselves by doing things like enjoying Hello Kitty, 179 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: Polka dots, sparkly nail Polish women. I know, we got 180 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: a lot of listeners out there that like nail art fail, 181 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: you're failing. According to Deb Taylor Swift, her lyrics aren't 182 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: serious enough. They're all about boys, uh, playing boggle, going 183 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: to parties where you might drink wine and play games 184 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: and eat pizza, listening to the music of Katie Perry, 185 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: basically anything that's not Patti Smith. So and I'm being 186 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: sarcast but just to point out how um help bothers 187 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: hime it is to to have that kind of like 188 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: outright fem phobia, is saying, you know what, it is 189 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: my one perspective that all of you women that like 190 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: certain things, I don't care who you are and what 191 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: you're doing with your life. That hooded sweatshirt. Yes, Deb 192 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: called out hooded sweatshirts as another sign of being a 193 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: woman child. I say, it's design of being cold. Well, 194 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: you know what they're like. Let's give it context. Which 195 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: I think makes the hoodie comment even more interesting is 196 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: she called out Sarah Silverman for it, comedian forty one 197 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: years old, and she specifies, no children, you know, the 198 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: childless Sarah Silverman, who's you know, going to be a 199 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: child forever? Because she wears T shirts and hoodies. And 200 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: then she closes out her post by repeating a child 201 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: comment at this time about herself and says something to 202 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: the effectively, you know, like from the safety of imminent motherhood, 203 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: maybe you all just look like weird as to me basically, 204 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: And so I kind of it makes you wonder like, well, basically, 205 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: what's your problem? Well, or what's what's our problem? And 206 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: again like I'm not I'm not saying all this to 207 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: just go off on a total tangent which I have 208 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: against a writer from Girls who is fantastically successful and 209 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: has met Katie Perry in real life. I haven't done that, um, 210 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: but to to yeah, just to kind of call out, like, 211 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: what what we're talking about in terms of how how 212 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: how sneaky femphobia can be. Um. And we've also talked 213 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: before a couple of times now about a similar column 214 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: that Julie Klausner, who is a comedian, amazing podcaster. She 215 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: her podcast is how is Your Week? And it's hilarious 216 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: and I listened to it all the time and she 217 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: says hilarious, hilarious, which is why I just said it 218 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: that way. But she similarly, you know, kind of said, hey, ladies, 219 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: enough with the rompers and putting birds on things, and 220 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: all we're doing is trying to be these quote twee 221 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: dream girls to please men like woman up. In other words, yeah, 222 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: she she sort of took women to task for instead 223 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: of where we used to pretend to not understand math 224 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: and need help. Now we're just um dressing as cute 225 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: like non threatening girl women. Yeah. And and at least, 226 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: though I will say at least for Klausner, she makes 227 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: this point quote, the larger issue is that it's a 228 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: lot easier for men or even guys or bros to 229 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: demean us if we're girls. And I get what she's 230 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: saying in that in that way, but again it's the 231 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: question of why does the feminine have to be inherently negative? Yeah, 232 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and I've and I've seen, you know, 233 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: pictures of of klauds ern like and of of deb 234 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: hanging out with her friends, and and there's a lot 235 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: of lady kinds of things that I'm sure are being 236 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: um enjoyed and indulged in. And I think that one 237 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: of the the main reasons why this film phobia has 238 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: come up a lot on the blogosphere is because the 239 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: women's section on the Internet has really grown. You now 240 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: have sites like, aside from just Jezebel, you have the 241 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: launch of sites like Exo Jane, Rookie, um, what else 242 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: is up there? Hairpin, Hairpin, Hello, Giggles and all, and 243 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: they're all doing really well because women do great online 244 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: and they're great with social media, and a lot of 245 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: it is dominated by eye catching nail art and polka 246 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: dots and sparkles, and a lot of women also had 247 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: a problem with that. Right in the same month that 248 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: Julie Clausner came out with her post, a Tricia Romano 249 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: over at The Daily Beast also called for women's sights 250 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: to grow up, and she expressed a real disappointment in 251 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: the tone of these sites, mainly that there's this goal, 252 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: maybe they're stretching themselves too thin, because they have this 253 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: goal of reaching girls as young as twelve all the 254 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: way up to women in their late forties. She really 255 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: calls out Exo Jane because Jane Pratt, you know, she's 256 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: like a celebrity to gen X women kind of, you know. 257 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: She she ran Sassy and then had Jane Magazine, which 258 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: I was a huge fan of and was crushed when 259 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: that folded. Um. But now you know, everybody waited with 260 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: bated breath for Exo Jane to open, and it was 261 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: kind of like a kind of moment for a lot 262 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: of people, I think, because I don't know, I don't 263 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: know what they were waiting for, some maybe enlightening moment, 264 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: and so they really slam. They came down hard on 265 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: Jane Pratt and her crew over there for not being 266 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: everything they wanted them to be. Right. Ramano refers to 267 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: it as tickle me hormone content, and she specifically called 268 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: out UM. There was a post by Emily McCombs who 269 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: is an editor over at exo Jane and she's hilarious 270 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: and insightful writer. Um, and she wrote a post for 271 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: exo Jane called um, my rapist friended me on Facebook 272 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: and all I got was this love article. Now, people 273 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast who have no context that post 274 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: might say, well, sure, Romano was right, like, why are 275 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: you being so completely flip about that? Um? And in response, uh, 276 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: When Romano was talking about that post, she said that 277 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: it was written in the tone of a post on 278 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: Oh no they didn't, or a live journal message board. 279 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: But I've read that post for instance. And while yes, 280 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: the headline is very click baity and I attention grabby, uh, 281 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: the actual content of it is gut wrenching and completely 282 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: honest and when I finished reading it, I had to 283 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: just sit still for a minute. Um. So I think 284 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: that we have to we gotta look a little deeper 285 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: into into this content. Um. There was also a response 286 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,479 Speaker 1: to sort of the dog pile on top of these 287 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: newer Lady sites over at Bust Magazine. Um and the 288 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: witer says that while the content might be hit or 289 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: miss quote, shouldn't there be a place where people of 290 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: various ages can go. Can you not like kittens and 291 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: rainbows and still be a feminist? I think you can. 292 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: I hope so. I hope so too. I mean, I know, 293 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: I know if you if you line this episode up 294 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: with our Manic Pixie dream Girl podcast, we might have 295 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: gone a little hard on Zoe d But it no 296 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 1: but that I don't think we are saying at all that, like, 297 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: you can't be somebody who wears dresses and high heels 298 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: and not be a feminist, right, because that's the whole 299 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: point of the problem with femphobia is that it's not 300 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: kitten heels or ukuleles or really beautiful eyelashes that I 301 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: wish I had. Yeah, for real, The problem is what 302 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: we culturally and automatically associate with those things, which is 303 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: that uh, you know you are you're just being a tool, 304 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: that you're not representing us well, that you've gone out 305 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: from the woman convention and you're not representing us well well. 306 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: And to me too, it's it's another dimension to the 307 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: whole like cultural debate that's going on right now, which 308 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: is completely exhausting about the concept of whether or not 309 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: women today's women who are doing so well statistically graduating 310 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: from college and getting these jobs and actually making more 311 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: money than men, uh, and whether or not we can 312 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: really have it all. And I don't know a single 313 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: guy who's sitting around like telling other men, no, that's 314 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: not the way, that's not the right way to be well. 315 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: Actually know there are are guys who are doing that. 316 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: And you know, the guys who are being called out 317 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 1: for not being men in the correct ways are the 318 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: ones who might be embracing a little bit more of 319 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: the feminine femphobia. It keeps coming up right exactly because 320 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: you're not you're not doing it right. Uh, in these 321 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: people's minds. And so another response, you know, Krista mentioned 322 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: bus magazine, but another response was from the editors over 323 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: at Persephone magazine. UM and basically they have like this 324 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: really long, basically transcribed conversation and it's funny, but it 325 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: really devolves into name calling, which is kind of tasteless. 326 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: But in all of that, they do bring up a 327 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: very good point which I agree with, that wearing glitter 328 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you know your polka dots and your 329 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: who what's and your whatnots uh and reading these blogs 330 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: are harmless choices. So why what what are we getting 331 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: so up in arms about? Why are we UM shaming 332 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: other women for writing this content, reading this content, wearing 333 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: these clothes, listening to this music? What is what is 334 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: the problem? Well, isn't there a touch of irony as well? 335 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: When we have these uh so many of these and 336 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: these are smart, sharp, and talented women in this example 337 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: of em phobe that we're talking about, who are perpetuating 338 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: this cycle. But isn't it ironic that UM on the 339 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: other side of feminism and choice the number one like 340 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of kneejerk critiques that you'll hear about feminists is 341 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: that we are dull and unattractive and plane Jane and 342 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: no offense to any Jane's out there. Um, and you know, 343 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: probably dress a certain way, we burn braws. You know, 344 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: it's it all gets tied up again with how we 345 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: with our appearance and what we are choosing to put 346 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: on or not put on. And to me, I feel 347 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: like it's all a slice of the same pie. So 348 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: I realized that this has been a very long, uh 349 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: kind of case study in femphobia. And I'll be curious 350 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: to hear from listeners like maybe perhaps we are over 351 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: analyzing this, um. Maybe maybe maybe we're taking it too seriously. 352 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: Maybe we were taking the glitter a little bit too seriously. Well, no, 353 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: I mean I don't think we are. I think that 354 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: the you know, women hating on women, people hating on 355 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: feminine things, it is an issue, you know, It's it 356 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: goes beyond just trying to insult somebody by saying they 357 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: throw like a girl. There's there's more to it than that. 358 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: And you know, it's one thing when it's like men 359 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: harping on women because you know, at least we can 360 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: band together. It's another thing. I feel like when it's 361 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: women harping on other women because it's like con seriously, 362 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: you're harping on me because I'm wearing X y Z, 363 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, like there's more to it than just what 364 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: I wear. Yeah, and there is a place for critique, Um, 365 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: but I think that we are just spinning wheels um 366 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: and wasting time if we spend our critiques on those 367 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: kinds of sort of throwaway things. At the end of 368 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: the day, they don't they don't matter. They matter as 369 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: much as a you know, as a two dollar uku lele, 370 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: which that sounds like slang for something, but it's not. 371 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: It's a really cheap uku lele that you found at 372 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: a thrift store for two dollars um. And again just 373 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: to kind of wrap things up and pull things out 374 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: of the blogosphere again to reiterate that, uh, we wanted 375 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: to bring this up because of that aspect of intersectionality. 376 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: It's not just women hating on women. It is something 377 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: that is pervasive and and harms all of us in 378 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: different ways. Um. Intersectionality is a concept that's that's used to, uh, 379 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: to point out how all of our oppressive institutions, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, 380 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: able is m everything is all intertwined and fem phobia. 381 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: I feel like it's part of that nasty ball of 382 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: yarm because it doesn't just affect women, like said, It 383 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: does affect transsexuals. It affects boys who you know, could 384 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: be called sissies on the playground. You know, it affects 385 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people. And so it's a pervasive and 386 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: ugly attitude. Yeah, so check yourself before you fem phobia yourself. Hey, hey, 387 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: put that on a T shirt. Yeah, yea. If anybody 388 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: wants to make those and send him to us, will 389 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: maybe that T shirt will probably end up at the 390 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: thrift store next to that two dollar uku lele. But 391 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, so that's what we had to say about 392 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: fem phobia. We got it's a little different from podcasts 393 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: that we normally do. But a storm has been a 394 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: bruin in my brain, Caroline right, and I had to 395 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: get it out. I've kind of got I kind of 396 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: got a fem phobia rash on my neck at this point. 397 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: I'm so worked up about this. He didn't need to 398 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: know that, Now you do. It's hot in the studio, Okay, 399 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: I thought I had a fever. I'm getting over a cold. 400 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad to know you're hot too, So send us 401 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: your thoughts on fem phobia. Do you think it's a 402 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: real thing? And where is the line between saying, hey, 403 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: you know like enough of this femininity bashing to saying, hey, 404 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: maybe we should think twice about the deeper cultural meaning 405 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: of this and that because I think that it can 406 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: be that can also be a very tricky answer to 407 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm question, a tricky question to answer, or an answer 408 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: to question can you decide? Mom Stuff at Discovery dot 409 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: com is where you can send us your thoughts. So 410 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or find 411 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: us on Facebook. And in the meantime, we got a 412 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: couple letters for you in relation to our two episodes 413 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: on women in punk rock. But wait, Kristen, before we 414 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: get a listener mail, we do have a message from 415 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: one of our awesome sponsors today who brought us this 416 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: episode of stuff Mom Never told you It is Jack 417 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: Threads dot com. They are quickly becoming the online shopping 418 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: destination for dude So our lady listener is out there 419 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: are dude listeners out there. Anybody who's interested in clothes 420 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: awesome brands at a deep discount. You need to go 421 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: to Jack threads dot com. They have everything on the 422 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: site marked at off because full price is for suckers. 423 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: As they say, they have awesome brands like Converse, Penguin, 424 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: Busted Tease, Ben Sherman. I have a Ben Sherman sweater. 425 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: I like it. But there's something special about this ladies 426 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: and gentlemen because as a listener of stuff mom never 427 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: told you you can go to Jack threads dot com 428 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: slash mom and skip the membership waitlist. So stock up 429 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: for the holidays, get present, just get yourself a sweater. 430 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: That's that's what I say. Go to Jack threads dot 431 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: com slash mom and show them a little love. So 432 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: on with the letters. Got one here about pussy Riot 433 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: from Christie, who says my wife was born and raised 434 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: in Kiev when it was of the uss Are. She 435 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: and her family got out almost twenty years ago, and 436 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: she was a teenager. Over the last six years of 437 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: being with her, I've learned a lot about what life 438 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: is like. They're from her and my in laws. With that, 439 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: you reported stats from an Al jazeer Pole on Russian's 440 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: opinions about pussy Riot, and those numbers are in my 441 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: opinion not to be trusted. Maybe they're an outline or 442 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: a sketch. We do not really know about what the 443 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: Russian people actually truly think of pussy Riot. I'm sure 444 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: members of the Russian Orthodox Church tut tut about it understandably. 445 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: But not only is Russian news under the control of Putin, 446 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: more glaringly, the extreme paranoia about saying anything against the 447 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: state is pervasive. Russians are forever metaphorically looking over their shoulders. 448 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: In terms of the expectations of women, you did take 449 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: this on a bit, which I'm glad for. Russian women 450 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: are feared because they're not supposed to speak up or 451 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: be rude. Even now, women are expected to be quiet, demure, 452 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: agreeable and just do what is expected, as in, take 453 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: the food offer to you a friend's dinner part even 454 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: if you don't want it, because if you say no, 455 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: even very nicely, it may cause a scene and you 456 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: will be seen as rude. Don't say no. It's all 457 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: about being proper propriety is key. I think that fuels 458 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: the hooliganism issues. So thanks for your insight, Christie. Okay, 459 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: and here's an email from miss Max that actually, interestingly enough, 460 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: ties together both are Punk episode and an earlier when 461 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: we did where we mentioned self pelvic exams, and you 462 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: know I said I would never do one, but okay, 463 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: So she says that she wanted to give us a 464 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: little insight from the life of a woman living in 465 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: the punk scene. She says, I always knew since I 466 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: was a little girl that I wasn't made like the 467 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: rest of the world, and when I first laid eyes 468 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: on a group of punks, I knew where I needed 469 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: to be. This world is loud and aggressive at first glance, 470 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: but I find that punks tend to be more aware 471 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: of social, political, economic, and environmental issues than the average American. 472 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,719 Speaker 1: As for feminism in the punk scene, it does exist, 473 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: but I'm glad to say that I never felt like 474 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: I needed to form my rights the woman in this world. 475 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: From my point of view, I feel like I'm an equal, 476 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: just as tough and competent as anyone else. Women and 477 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 1: men share all the chores and hard work pretty much equally, 478 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: and I feel encouraged to learn and teach anything. Some 479 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: women disagree and fight for more equality, but I'm happy 480 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: in this world. I don't get talked down to like 481 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: I would a normal society, and I'm proud of my community. 482 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: If there was ever a need for me to speak up, 483 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: I know I would be given a platform and listen 484 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: to as well. And so now she jumps to an 485 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: older podcast that we did about the pregnancy tests, and 486 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: she says, I remember buying a zine when I was 487 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: about eighteen that taught you how to perform a self 488 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: polvic exam, and it came with a mirror flashlight and 489 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: a sterile packaged plastic speculum. It was super cool. I 490 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: wish I had some to send. Thank you, miss Max. 491 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: I appreciate how you tied those things together. It's very 492 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: interesting and thanks to everybody who's written in mom Stuff 493 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: at discovery dot com. It's where you can send your letters, 494 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: and you can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast 495 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: and find us on Facebook and check out our blog 496 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: on tumbler. Stuff mom never told you dot tumbler dot com. 497 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: And if you would like to give your brain a 498 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: little treat, why don't you head over to our website 499 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: It's how stuff works dot com for more on this 500 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works 501 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: dot com