1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: In recent years, one of the most successful Wall Street 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: investors has been Bill Ackman. He's built Pershing Square into 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: one of the most successful and listened to firms in 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: all of Wall Street. But he's also been outspoken in 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: a number of other areas, including philanthropy and politics. I 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: had a chance to sit down with Bill in his 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: office recently to talk about a variety of issues, including 8 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: his latest bet on where the economy is going. There 9 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: is a general consensus in the United States in some 10 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: circles that we probably have avoided a recession for the 11 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: near future. We're going to have a so called soft landing. 12 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: That's the consensus. Is that your view as well? 13 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: I think it's really hard to predict. I do think 14 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: the economy is weakening. We're seeing evidence of that in 15 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 2: some of our companies. You're seeing and I have some concerns. 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: There's been a huge subsidy in terms of low interest 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,639 Speaker 2: rates and companies. Most companies fix their rates or their 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: debt at very low rates, and certainly real estate investors 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: did the same. And that works until it doesn't work, 20 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: And so I think we're what's going to be interesting 21 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: is to see what happens when people get have to 22 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 2: reprice their debt, and I think that can have sort 23 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: of a cliff like effect, and you're certainly seeing that 24 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 2: in real estate now. 25 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: The markets are assuming, and the markets are not always right, 26 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: but the markets are assuming that there's going to be 27 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: a FED discount cut sometime next year. As we talk 28 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: now just about the end of November. It's not clear 29 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: what the Fed will do. But some people say that 30 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: the Fed, if they were to cut interest rates next year, 31 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: would help the Democrats and therefore be seen as very political. 32 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: The other hands, some people say the Fed can't wait 33 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: till after the election because the economy might need a stimulus. 34 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: So you have a view on what the FED is 35 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: likely to do. 36 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: I think they're going to cut rates, and you know, 37 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: I think they're going to cut rates sooner than people expect, 38 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: because you know, what's happening is the real rate of 39 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: interest ultimately, which is what impacts the economy, keeps increasing 40 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: as inflation declines. Right, So if the FED keeps rates 41 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: in the sort of middle fives and inflation is trending 42 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: below three percent or you know, that's a very high 43 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: real r of interest and I think that is having 44 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: a sort of retarding effect on the economy. And then 45 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: of course, again, you know, many businesses and certainly many 46 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: individuals have the benefit of fixed rate debt, and that 47 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: fixed rate debt, certainly for companies and for commercial real estate, 48 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: starts to roll off. So I think there's a risk 49 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: of a hard landing if the FED doesn't start cutting rates, 50 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, pretty soon. So, you know, I think the 51 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: market expects sometime middle of next year. I think it's 52 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 2: more likely probably as early. 53 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: As Key one for the economy itself. Do you think 54 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: it really is going to make a difference if President 55 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: Trump is if he's the Republican nominee and gets selected, 56 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: or President Biden is the Democratic nominee he's elected. 57 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: You know, I do think leadership matters enormously in everything 58 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: from the economy to geopolitics, and I hope we're going 59 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: to have a broader selection than Trump and Biden. I 60 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: think Biden's done a lot of good things, but I 61 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: think his legacy will not be a good one if 62 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: he is the nominee. I do think the right thing 63 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: for Biden to do is to step asi and to 64 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: say he's not going to run and create the opportunity 65 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: for some competition of alternative. Do you think that I 66 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: think that I think he's you know, past his prime 67 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: in a kind of meaningful way. I do think of 68 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: It's a bit like being CEO of a major company. 69 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: It's a it's a it's a full time job, and 70 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: you need to be at your you know, you need 71 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: to be strong, you need to be at your intellectual best. 72 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: And I don't think Biden is there. And I don't 73 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: say that, you know, with any derision of the President. 74 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: I always respect the president and want whoever the president 75 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 2: is to be successful. But I think he's clearly past 76 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: his physical and cognitive peak. 77 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: So you're a young, experienced investment professional. You ever thought 78 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: about running for office yourself? 79 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: I think, you know, if the country wanted me at 80 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: some point, you know, I would be open to it. 81 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: You know, it's not I think it's not my time. 82 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: I still have a lot of work to do, and 83 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: you know, like to if I ever would take that step, 84 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: I would have to do I'd have to find myself 85 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: at a time in life when I felt ready to 86 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: take on that kind of responsibility. But it's something where 87 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: the country would have to ask me, as opposed to 88 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: you me put myself out there. 89 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: Let's talk a moment about the background of yourself, when 90 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: you grew up and how you came to this business. 91 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: So where did you grow up. 92 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 3: I grew up in Chappaqua, New York. 93 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: And did you say to your parents, I want to 94 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: be a hedge fund investor? 95 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 2: No, what did you want to be? I wanted to 96 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: be a businessman. It's probably what I told him at 97 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: age ten or something like this. So I always had 98 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: all kinds of entrepreneurial jobs and things. 99 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: So as a young boy, or did you have any 100 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: newspaper routes or things like that. 101 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: Sure, So my dad did not believe in allowances. He said, look, 102 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: you want to make money, you have to work. And 103 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: initially he offered me some job opportunities. 104 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 3: Early one was. 105 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: Digging a fifty foot long, you know, sort of ditch 106 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: as I would describe it, to help deal with water 107 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: flow off of our property. And he offered to pay me, 108 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: you know whatever, It was a dollar an hour or 109 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 2: something like this, and it was a good lesson and 110 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: that I didn't want to get paid per hour. So 111 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 2: next time he gave me a project, I said, look, 112 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: let me price the project and then it doesn't matter 113 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 2: how quickly I get it done on I don't want. 114 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: To be paid on an hourly basis. So those are 115 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: some of the early things. 116 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: I wouldn't call them entrepreneurial, but they generated some money 117 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: that I was spending money. In terms of early life 118 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: job experiences. 119 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 3: One of the most. 120 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: Valuable ones was actually when I was a Harvard student. 121 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: There's something called the Let's Go Travel Guides, which were 122 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: these books that. 123 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: Students wrote about budget travel. 124 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: And a friend of mine, Whitney Tilson, and I he 125 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: became a friend, sold advertising for those guides all over 126 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: the world, and so we had this working out of 127 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: the basement of dorm room. 128 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: We sold hundreds. 129 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 2: Of thousands of dollars of advertising in these books, and 130 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,239 Speaker 2: we got a commission for doing so, and it started 131 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: that's got a fifteen percent promote for selling advertising, and 132 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: that kind of led to this hedge fund thing. 133 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: And you did pretty well on Harvard, and when you graduated, 134 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: you then did what. 135 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 3: I graduated work for my dad. 136 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: Actually, my grandfather and his brother started a firm that 137 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: arranged financing for real estate developers and what you might 138 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: call commercial mortgage brokerage, and also raised equity financing for 139 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 2: developer sold property and I went to work there. I 140 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: spent a little under two years there before going to 141 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 2: business school. 142 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: And you went to business school at Harvard I did. 143 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: And after you graduated from Harvard Business School, what did 144 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: you do? 145 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 3: That's when I started a hedge fund. 146 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: And just just said, Okay, I've got a harvardusins school. 147 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: I don't need to have any more experience. I'm just 148 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: going to start a hedge fund. 149 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: Yes, I had started investing in business school with a classmate. Actually, 150 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 2: I went to Harvard with a plan about I was 151 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: going to learn about investing so I could someday be 152 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: an investor. And there were no courses on investing at Harvard, 153 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: but there were courses on finance and accounting and competitive 154 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: strategy with Michael Porter, and that was the backdrop for 155 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: my education about investing. I said, look, I'll open a 156 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: brokerage account. I've made a little money in my real 157 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: estate commissions, and this will be another year of If 158 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: I lose it all, it's another year of Harbard Business School. 159 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: If I learned something from it, maybe it's a career. 160 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: And I kind of fell in love with investing and 161 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: it's something you can kind of figure out. Actually whether 162 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: you're good at or not pretty a couple of year 163 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: period of time. 164 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: So you started Pershing Square after that period of time 165 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: or right away. 166 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: I started a firm called Gotham Partners with a partner 167 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: named David Burkwitz, a classmate of mine a business school. 168 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: We started in September of ninety two. And yes, we 169 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: had no experience. And what was interesting is that none 170 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: of the people who knew me in high school, like parents, 171 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: my friends. 172 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: Had no interest because they thought of me as a kid. 173 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: But we raised money from mostly people who were themselves 174 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: good investors, and I think they could see in us. 175 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: I guess some potential, all. 176 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: Right, So you then transformed that into Pershing Square year 177 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: or two later. 178 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: No, So Gotham was a decade and we did kind 179 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: of equity and then private equity and some venture capital, 180 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: and then actually had a pretty challenging period that led 181 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: to a decision to wind up Gotham and then I 182 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: launched Pershing Square in January of two thousand and four, 183 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: almost twenty years ago. 184 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: You specialized in picking stocks. You weren't a macro investor then, 185 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: where you were a stock picker. 186 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: Yes, I would say we were kind of an activist 187 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: stock picker. We would buy pretty concentrated portfolio by large 188 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: stakes and companies that we thought were great businesses or 189 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: had great assets but were undermanaged. 190 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: And when you're an activist, of course that word has 191 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: different meanings to different people. But you would you call 192 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,599 Speaker 1: the CEO and say, we own five percent, we'd like 193 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: to be on the board, we'd like to tell you 194 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: how to run your company? Did you do that? And 195 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: was that intimidating to do that? 196 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: It's not exactly what we said, because again we were 197 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: young and inexperienced, but it was more that we'd find 198 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: a company. One of the early investments was Wendy's, the 199 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: Hamburger chain, and Wendy's owned one hundred percent of a 200 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: chain called Tim Horton's in Canada. And Tim Hortons was 201 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: a very profitable, successful, pure franchise of coffee and donut 202 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: chaining principally in Canada, and you could fairly clearly see 203 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: that business was worth about five billion dollars at least. 204 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 2: It had about four hundred and fifty million of operating income, 205 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: probably worth meaningfully more than that. But you could buy 206 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: all of Wendy's for five billion, So literally the market 207 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 2: was describing zero value to the Wendy's franchise, and our 208 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 2: advice to the CEO is, well, just spin off to 209 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: Importance and then focus on fixing Wendy's. But you can 210 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: create enormous value in just separating two companies. So it 211 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: was a bit like investment banking where we didn't charge 212 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: a fee, and actually, back then because we couldn't get 213 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: a return phone call because we were a tiny, little 214 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: fun circa two thousand and four, we hired Blackstone, which 215 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 2: had an investment bank at the time, and we hired 216 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: them to say, put together a fairness opinion, if you will, 217 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: what Wendys would be worth if they spun off to Importance. 218 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 3: And then we wrote a letter to the board. 219 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: We attached the Blackstone evaluation, which was double where the 220 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: stock was trading, and then six weeks later, magically they 221 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: spun off Tim Horton's. 222 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: Okay, so you did that with other companies and being 223 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: an activist, was it consistent with your personality to do this, 224 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: because you've got to be a tough guy to call 225 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: up CEOs and say, look, I got a better idea 226 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: abou how to run your company than you do. 227 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: It was consistent with my personality. I've think always been 228 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: some form of an activist. 229 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: Yet and today your focus is on the kind of 230 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: activist investing or you've stopped that. 231 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: So, you know, when you're no one knows who you 232 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: are and you're trying to affect change in a company, 233 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 2: you have to sort of be an activist. You have 234 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: to use the media, the public platform to in some 235 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 2: cases shame a company into doing the right thing. Twenty 236 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: years later, having had a meaningful number of successful engagements. 237 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: With companies, we don't really have to. 238 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: Do that anymore, and so a lot of the stuff 239 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: we've done recently has been either buying into a company 240 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: that already has great leadership and we're happy to share ideas. 241 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: In some cases, you know there needs to be a 242 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 2: change in leadership, but we're able to get things done without, 243 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: you know, sort of what you might call activism, more 244 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 2: like engaged owners of businesses. 245 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 1: And you've done three extremely successful macro bets. One during 246 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: the period of the time of the housing crisis seven 247 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: o eight and that one was extremely successful. You did 248 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: one again during the COVID period of time, yes, which 249 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: was I think maybe your best investment ever. You made 250 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,359 Speaker 1: a ninety four times your money. 251 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 3: Investment or less one hundred times actually one hundred times. 252 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yes, we bet that the credit spreads would widens 253 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: because we needed we'd have to shut down the global economy, 254 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: and that's basically what happened. 255 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: So did people say, do you have any more deals 256 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: like that? When you did that one? Yes, and that 257 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: was a hard to find. 258 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: You know, the three black Swan events in the last 259 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 2: twenty years, we were We've been able to make a big, big, 260 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: profitable bets on. But these kind of blacks one type 261 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: things hopefully occur only every seven years. 262 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: Let's say interest rates went up and they started going up, 263 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: you made another macro back that turned out to be 264 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: pretty successful as well. Yes, So do you have any 265 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: other macro bets you can mention now or nothing you 266 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: can mention? 267 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: We have another one on as we speak. Actually, we're 268 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: betting that the Federal Reserve is going to have to 269 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: cut rates more quickly than people expect. That's the current 270 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 2: macro bet that we have on. 271 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: The pleasure you get out of doing this is what 272 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: you like to make money. You have investors, you want 273 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: to make them happier. 274 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: So it's a lot of things. 275 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: You know, one I work with a great group of 276 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: people that I got to individually select. I mean, as 277 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: you know the benefit of being a CEO, as you 278 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: get to pick everyone you work with. We choose people 279 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: based on principally personal qualities. You know, they a good 280 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: human being, Are they a person of good character? Of course, 281 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: they need to be exceptional in whatever it. 282 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: Is that they do for the firm. And we're a 283 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 3: tiny firm. 284 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: We're unusual, and most firms with seventeen billion of assets 285 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: have a lot more than forty one employees. And of 286 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: the forty one, we only have eight people team, which 287 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: is also unusual. So I think this plays attracts you 288 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 2: know what people call force multipliers, you know, people who 289 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: could get done a lot more whether you're on the 290 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: accounting team the legal team than a typical. 291 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 3: Kind of person. 292 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: So you have a bunch of high performing, high quality 293 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 2: fund people and I get to come into the office 294 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: every day and work with them. 295 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 3: So I would say that's a great thing too. 296 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: It's actually a lot of fun to make money for people, 297 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: you know, it's you know, I get the occasional letter email, 298 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: often from existing investors, but actually more often from people 299 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: that I don't know that happen to, you know, buy 300 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 2: a stock along with us. You know, we've had some 301 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: nice successes which you know, have been life transformational for people. 302 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: So I do it is fun to make people money. 303 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: Even if some hedge funds they've delegated the money decision 304 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: making to many of different people in the firm, you 305 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: make all the final decisions yourself. 306 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: It works as we have an eight person investment team, 307 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: and each idea is one that a two person team 308 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: will do a deep dive on. 309 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 3: I will do less of a deep dive. 310 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: I'll read the public filings, I'll read conference called transcripts. 311 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 2: I won't be the person that you know, talks to 312 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: former employees that kind of thing. And then we talk 313 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: about every idea as a team, and ultimately the team 314 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: collectively we don't do things generally that you know, we 315 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: don't have kind of collective buy in on. At the 316 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: end of the day, I do retain the ultimate veto yeah, 317 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: your name, and the ultimate decision on sizing. 318 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 3: One big change I made in the last. 319 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: Couple of years, I pointed a cio, a very talented 320 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: guy named Ryan Israel who's been with the firm for 321 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: about fourteen years. And Ryan is exceptional, and he's taken 322 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: a real leadership role among that eight person you know team. 323 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: But you know, I use the word team often here 324 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: because that's how this place operates. 325 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: What type of people would get a job here. You're 326 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: looking for people who are really smart, good academic credentials driven. 327 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: What is it that you look for when you're interviewing people. 328 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: It depends on what role. 329 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: But people on the investment team generally, yes, they've graduated 330 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: to the top of their class at Wharton, They've always 331 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: been interested in business and investing. They went to work 332 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: at a Apollo a KKR Carlisle. We like people that 333 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: get private equity experience. We think that's the best background 334 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: for what we do. We're really private equity investors investing 335 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: in the public markets, and the sort of temperament of 336 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: a typical private equity person fits well here. We only 337 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: own really eight companies. They don't change that often, so 338 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: this is not a place where a typical hedge fund firm. 339 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: You know, people are cycling through the idea of the week, 340 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: the idea of the month. Here we may do one 341 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: new idea a year. 342 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: Now. Another area that investors have been very interested lately 343 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: is artificial intelligence. Are you investing in things relating to 344 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence? 345 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: You know, the most direct investment we have in AI, 346 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: I would say, is good Google or Alphabet, which. 347 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: You're a biggest shareholder of Alphabet. 348 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: We're a small shareholder of alphaet because it's a massive company. 349 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: We've got a you know, a large investments approaching two 350 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 2: billion dollar investment in the business. And actually it was 351 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: it was the It was AI that created the opportunity 352 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: for us to buy Google at an attractive price. You know, 353 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: basically Microsoft and open ai had a very powerful demonstration 354 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: of a launch of a new product, and then Google's 355 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: kind of launch or it was a bit of a disaster. 356 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: Stock gout crushed on the basis of you know, fear. 357 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: That Google is way behind an AI and and there 358 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: you know, their advertising franchise more than covered the value 359 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: of the company and you got whatever they were doing 360 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: in AI if you will, for free. And our view 361 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: based on work we had done, is that actually Google 362 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: was sort of neck and neck, if not ahead of 363 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: open ai in terms of their their business progress. 364 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: So one of the pluses some people would say of 365 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: being a successful investor is you do make a fair 366 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: amount of money and then you have the opportunity to 367 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: be a philanthropist. So you were one of the early 368 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: signers of the Giving Pledge. Did you do that? Why 369 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: did you commit to give away half of your net worth? 370 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: Well, I think he committed half for more. That was 371 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 2: kind of my plan anyway. And then you know, one day, 372 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: you know, Warren Buffett calls up and says, Bill, you know, 373 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: I want you to sign the Giving Pledge. So I 374 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: think it's a you know, I've learned a lot about philanthropy. 375 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: I started the Persian Square Foundation, actually, I think seventeen 376 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 2: years ago. My personal business plan was always to be 377 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 2: super successful and then take the resources I don't need 378 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: and then redeploy them in a way that I thought 379 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: was best for society. I do think that philanthropy is 380 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: often not the best way to solve problems. I do 381 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 2: think that capitalism and for profit business models are generally 382 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: the best way to solve problems. But there are still problems, 383 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 2: societal ones that can't be solved in the traditional capital markets. 384 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: There's sort of a gap, and so you know, those 385 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: are the areas that we tend to focus on. 386 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: One of the institutions you've been very philanthropic with is 387 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: your alma mater, Harvard. But recently you've been very public 388 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: about your criticism of the way Harvard handled the events 389 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: of October seventh then their aftermath. Could you talk about 390 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: that now? 391 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: The first reaction of a group of thirty four Harvard 392 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: student clubs on the morning after October seventh was to 393 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 2: put out a statement saying that Israel was one hundred 394 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 2: percent responsible for the acts of Hamas. And my view 395 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: on that was, you know, that's ridiculous, and that's more 396 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: than ridiculous, I would say, And you know, these students 397 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 2: need to have some you know, judgment and perspective. You 398 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: can come out and say, look, I'm very unhappy about 399 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 2: Israel's treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank, or 400 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: you can say, you know, we can talk about God's strip, 401 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 2: but you can't support terrorists, and particularly terrorists that rape 402 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: and pillage and you know, murder and burn and take hostages. 403 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: And so my first point there was not so much 404 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: directed at Harvard, but you know, I love to know. 405 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 2: I got actually a text from a CEO in my industry. 406 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 2: It's like Bill, you know your you know, the people 407 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 2: at Harvard. I'd like to know who the students are 408 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: behind these clubs, so I make sure I don't inadvertently 409 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: hire them. 410 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 3: And so I tweeted out that sort of. 411 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: Made that point and caused a bit of a firestorm, 412 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: and I got a lot of pushback. Why are you 413 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: picking on students? I said, Look, you can't hide behind 414 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 2: a corporate entity if you're going to support terrorism. You know, 415 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: that's a that's a major decision. So that was sort 416 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: of my first initiative, if you will, at Harvard. And 417 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: then you know, there were protests on campus, and the 418 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: protests weren't The protests were supportive of terrorism and supportive 419 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: of things like you know, when you have a group 420 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: of students shouting into fada, into Fada, you know, let's 421 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 2: free Palestine and from the river to the sea. The 422 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 2: meaning of into fada means to kill Jews. When I 423 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: raised this issue, Harvard said, well, we have a commitment 424 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: to free speech, and that's why we have to allow this. Well, 425 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: there's certain speech that is certainly permissible under the First Amendment, 426 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: and then there's certain speech that I would say is 427 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 2: undesirable on a campus. 428 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: Have you said you're not going to donate the Harvard anymore, 429 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: or have you said, I'm not going to hire people 430 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: from these Harvard students anymore or people like those people. 431 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: No, well, one, we're not going to hire anyone that 432 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: supports terrorism at person square. I haven't made any statements about, 433 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: you know, economic support for Harvard. I want Harvard to 434 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: do the right thing. I don't want to threaten one 435 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: way or another. That's not my kind of approach. But 436 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: I do think Harvard needs to do a deep examination 437 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: of you know, one, there's been a meaningful rise in 438 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: anti Semitic incidents on campus and university's done very little. 439 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 3: You know. 440 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: The reaction was, let's form a task force. And I 441 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: think again, had this been another ethnic group that or 442 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 2: these kind of activity took place, Harvard would be suspending 443 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: the people involved, not just allowing you. 444 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: So you're going to continue to be involved in this 445 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: issue and try to push Harvard to do what you 446 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: think they should be doing. 447 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, I wrote a pretty thoughtful letter that 448 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 2: was you know, I think twenty five million people saw 449 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 2: it on Twitter, and remarkably I did not get a response, 450 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 2: which to. 451 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 3: Me is a very very bad and weak approach. 452 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 2: Literally, no response, no acknowledgment, no Dear Bill, I hear 453 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: what you're saying, but. 454 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 3: Nothing. So, Yes, I'm an activist, but. 455 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 2: My activism today is probably not in the corporate boardroom. 456 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 2: It's on campus. And this is not just a Harvard problem. 457 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: You know, there's and it's an NYU problem. It's a 458 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: University of Pennsylvanian problem. 459 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 3: It. 460 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: You know, the the more I examined the issue, the 461 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: more woke, the more left leaning the institution, the more 462 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: anti semitism, which is a very unfortunate thing. 463 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: You've built Pershing from nothing to what it is today, 464 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: a very successful hedge fund. What makes you most proud 465 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: that having done that from the start? Or are the 466 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: things you've done in your philanthropic life? What are you 467 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: most proud of having achieved in your life so far? 468 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 2: So, you know a number of things. I love having 469 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: a company where I believe that pretty much everyone here 470 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 2: is excited to come into work every day. I think 471 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 2: we've made a kind of meaningful contribution to you know, 472 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: the capitalist system and the functioning of how you know. 473 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: I think the probably the most significant impact we've had. 474 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: We were sort of an early activist and as you 475 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: probably know, the nature of boardrooms, you know, twenty years 476 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: ago is meaningfully different today, and a big part of 477 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 2: that is the rise of shareholder activism, and I think 478 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: we played an important role there. I think that's led 479 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 2: to the US capital markets, in the US stock market 480 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: being one of the best performing markets in the world, 481 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: and that has a huge impact on people's pensions, on 482 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: people's savings, people's livelihood, on US competitiveness, on our national security, 483 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 2: and so, you know, I think, you know, the good 484 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: news about my day job is, you know, it's fun, 485 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: it's profitable, benefits our investors, but it also on benefits 486 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 2: kind of the market generally. So I think that's an 487 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 2: important and good contribution. 488 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: You know. 489 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: Philanthropically, we have invested in, you know, six hundred million 490 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: dollars in a wider range of initiatives, and you know, 491 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: a number of those, uh, you know, it's a bit 492 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: like investing. You have, hopefully you have a few Googles, 493 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: and we have a couple of those, a number of 494 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: those filanthropically, and I do feel like we've invested money 495 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: on which society has earned unattractive return. 496 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 497 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 498 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: wherever you listen