WEBVTT - Can Reparations Heal a World of Pain? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.640 This episode is dedicated to Sarah Miller Arnon, mother of 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:08.320 our producer Ben Arna. Sarah was a loving mother, wife, teacher, 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.440 and guiding light. We love you, Sarah until we meet again. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.480 I'm Erica Alexander. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:20.680 That I'm Whitney Dow. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:24.360 Welcome to Reparations. The Big Payback, a production of Color 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.760 Farm Media, iHeartRadio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.839 That theme of paying back is also a very deeply 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.879 churched name. When I grew up, there was a songwek 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.400 saying called heyday is coming after Awhile, And there were 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.680 a number of songs that suggested that injustice just doesn't 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.120 get away. Now, when I think about the moral piece 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.080 of this, I want to look at it through two lenses. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:56.000 One lens is the religious land of Judeo Christian perspective, 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:01.240 and then the other is from the constitutional And the 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.000 third one might be that many people don't realize Erica, 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:10.720 that for years there was no separate study of economics 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.360 in this country or in the world, that the study 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:20.039 of economics was a part of morral philosophy. In other words, 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.520 you would study. 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:28.360 Did you hear that? 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.679 Did I hear what? Reverend Barber? 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.479 No? No? After Reveren Barber that. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:40.400 Silence, Yes, I heard it. Why are we listening to silence? 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:40.800 Erica? 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.039 Well, you know, as a reminder of where we're all 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:48.440 going at this brief life's end, you know. And the 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.160 other day we went on a field trip to visit 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.440 my dad's cemetery out in New Jersey and I hadn't 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.080 been there in over thirty years. And we'll get into 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.920 why that is. But remember after we talked, before we left, 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.880 we just stood there for a little while and listened 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:03.760 to the silence. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.400 I remember that. But why are you thinking about that 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:15.920 right now? 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.160 Because we've been going so fast. We threw ourselves into 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.440 this big reparations world and all that comes with it. 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:26.800 So maybe we need a moment to settle down and 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:32.240 just listen, stop talking, And if we did, maybe we'd 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.040 be able to hear the angels speak. I don't know. 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.240 Maybe I mean also to remember why we wanted to 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:41.520 do this. What do we want to get out of it? 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:43.240 What did you want to get out of it? 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:52.560 Well? 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.840 I think that I wanted to get a couple of 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.400 things out of it, something for myself that I wanted 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.920 to get a deeper understanding of this idea of reparations 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.280 and what it might mean for our country, because I 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.000 think that so much of the time you think you 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.360 understand something and you don't really understand it. You have 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.280 sort of a vague idea about it, and once you 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.240 dig into it, you realize it's so much more complicated 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.320 then something I want on a larger scale. I really 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.120 I've always talked about Eric. I know you laugh at it, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.400 but this idea that I'm trying to say white people 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:25.040 and I really want. 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:26.880 What I mean by that, I wanted to bring. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.400 White ears to this story that I think that so 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.000 much of the time white people think that the story 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.600 of reparations really is something for black people, so they 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.440 could hear themselves in that story. And I think if 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.920 you can bring white ears to the story, you also 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.280 have the opportunity to bring white hearts as well. 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:45.320 It's kind of like Reverend Barber. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.800 Who's decade his life to the Poor People's Campaign and 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.000 the work of Martin Luther King, and he has this 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.720 goll of fusion politics, and what that means is that 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.400 the fates of black and white people are linked together. 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.760 They're fused together, that we aren't on these separate journeys 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.240 that were connected, and so what affects one affects the other. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.080 And I think sort of what we've done here, Eric, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.400 I hope we've done is we've kind of been trying 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.200 to do fusion storytelling, where we show that the black 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.039 and white story are intimately together and you can't understand 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:17.320 one without the other. 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:19.400 Yeah. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.320 Well, it's been a hell of a journey, and I 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.680 got to give it up for the race advocates, people 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.760 like Reverend Barber, the Poor People's Campaign, He's amazing. I 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.920 don't know how they all stay sane in this world. 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.760 It's exhausting. I mean, we're definitely not the same people 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.120 we were when we started this, or perhaps we were 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.960 always our same selves, and this process created extraordinary conditions 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:46.760 to test the outer limits of who we thought we 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.479 were versus who we really are. As you can see, 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.560 I've become confusions in between all this. But yeah, stress 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.279 it's a purifier. Pain and suffering too. 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:58.360 Well, what do you mean by that, Erica, that it's 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.440 a purifier, Like who's a pure fine? 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.159 I don't know. You know, that's actually a deep question, 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.880 because if you know, if stress and pain could purify something, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.800 you think the United States would be in a better space. 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.920 But I think it's been so successful at what it's 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:18.279 done in terms of the oppression on people of color 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.799 and black people, that it really hasn't experienced the pain 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.360 enough and suffering of that to change. I really don't. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:29.200 But before our trip to the cemetery, had I ever 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:30.840 told you about my dad's death? 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.119 No, we've talked a lot about your family, of course 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:36.359 your mom know, not specifically about your father's passing. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.560 Why do you want to talk about him now? 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.880 Well, because my father's story is a tell of morality, 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.160 and that topic indirectly is relevant to what we are 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:50.039 talking about. What lies underneath this whole reparations talk is 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:56.760 one of personal character and accountability morality. So okay, let's 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.279 talk about it, and let's talk about our road trip. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.680 Glad we took Revern Barber along with us to sit shotgun. 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.360 He knows a little something about the road we were traveling. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.040 He certainly does. In fact, he led the way you. 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:13.680 Would study moral philosophy, And as a part of moral philosophy, 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:18.000 you've studied economics because the suggestion was there was no 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.080 way to be moral if you were emmral with your 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.599 money and ear marl with the way you treated people 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.039 based on their relationships with money and wealth that was 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:33.480 separated in America in large part due to slavery, because 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.400 you can't, on the one hand, say that the economics 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.479 is a moral issue when you build a system on 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:46.200 slavery that has five underpinnings, and the first of it 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.880 is evil economics and an evil economics. And I've kind 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.640 of coined these five evil economics, meaning that the end 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.440 justifies the means. So if your goal is to get 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.719 wealthy and to exceed other nations that have been in 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.080 existence thousands of years before you, and the only way 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.440 to do that is to turn people into property, then 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.920 the end your wealth justifies the means, which is a 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:15.960 form of evil economics. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.040 Do you know where the grid is? 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:21.040 I had no idea. 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.080 She said it was under a big oak. I was 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.280 hoping that there would be somebody here we could ask. 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.760 So Erica, how did your dad die? 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:34.320 Well, it was pretty brutal. Let me put it to 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.440 you this way. If he had been an animal, they 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.920 would have put him down years before, just to end 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.440 his suffering. But I don't know, Whitney. The details are 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.360 like pain pornography, and I don't want to get into that. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.400 So we're just coming out of the Holland Tunnel into 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:04.600 New Jersey. 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.880 We're at Rose Mount Cemetery in New Jersey, Elizabeth, New Jersey, 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.640 and my father is buried here and I don't know 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.000 exactly where, but my mother said it was in front 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.440 of a oak tree and the office is closed. 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:18.720 There's a lot of trees here. 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.520 I think that there's a big oak tree over there. 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:26.880 Yeah. So the identifying marker of this place is that 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.480 everything's flat. There are no like standing graves. I don't 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.000 know if that's just what they decided so they can 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:38.280 maybe put more people here, but uh, it's not the 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:52.360 prettiest place. Well. His name was Robert Lee Murray Alexander. 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.640 It was a preacher and he lived a tough life. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.600 He was also a complicated, fascinating person. Born in the 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.120 South of West, he was an orphan and his hobole 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.800 preacher life certainly took its toll, and in his short 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.920 life he ran fast, but he wasn't built for speed. 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.040 I don't know where it is. In fact, I haven't 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.960 been here in over thirty years. He died in nineteen 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:27.280 ninety three and we buried him and I haven't come 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:32.840 back since. He was born with a bad heart. He 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.480 died of congestive heart failure and adult diabetes. He was 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.120 I think fifty years old and he passed away in 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.560 East New York, Brooklyn. We lived in the parsonage where 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.680 my mother, Sammy, also an orphan and soon to be 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.520 a widow, performed her vow to death to us part 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.640 and she took care of him until he breathed his 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.600 last And it wasn't easy because toward the end of 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.160 his life his legs started to rot and turn ganggreen 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.640 because of the circular it was so compromised. He died 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.920 January thirteenth, nineteen ninety three. It was just before I 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:09.559 was going to start the Cosby Show, and funeral director 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.120 had an interesting comment that he said to my mother. 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.520 He said that my dad must have been paying a 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:20.120 debt because it marked his flesh and bone is fair trade. 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.000 He told my mother that he had never seen a 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.959 body that had gone through as much pain and suffering 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:27.760 and all his years of undertaking. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:29.560 Wow, I see. 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:34.000 The next one issue would be sick sociology, and that 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.280 is that people can be around each other physically, but 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.200 there has to be a hierarchy. There has to be 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:46.000 a us them, you cannot have an equal society. The 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.280 third pillar would be political pathology, and that is that 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.560 all of your politics are designed to protect this evil 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:58.560 economics and to protect this sociology, so much so that 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.440 when you even write your documents, you have to make 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.120 sure that the system of slavery is protected, because you 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.040 can't even have a unity or a constitution without that. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.840 The last two bad biology. So in the seventeenth century, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.240 a French scientist came up with this idea. You can 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.120 read about this in one of Cornell West's book called 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.480 Prophesied Deliverance, in which they said you could determine brain 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.400 size by skin color. You saw some of this in 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.959 the movie Django, and people thought it was just the movie. 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.400 It was actually real. There were scientists who suggested that 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:37.120 you could determine brain size by skin color. Therefore, skin 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:42.880 color became a sign of one's lesser humanity, or actually 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.000 one's lack of humanity. And then the last one is 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:53.880 heretical ontology. Ontology is the study of God's intentions. And 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:58.559 so the argument was that God intended the evil economists, 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:02.920 God intended the sixth sociology, God intended the political pathology. 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.400 God intended the bad biology. God intended the system of slavery, 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.880 which is in itself a hered heress. It is the 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:16.400 abuse and missus of theology. So when you asked that 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.640 question about from a moral perspective, I just wanted to 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:20.679 lay that out first. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.520 Now, to be clear, my father was no Hitler, no Polepot, 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.160 no Dick Cheney, and yet in an unfair way here 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.480 he was in East New York mythology. Now that's near Brownsville, 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.800 and this is the early nineties. It's a real rough 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.160 place that his physical body looked so tortured that it 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.640 was a standout visual for pain and suffering. It's deep. 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.760 But why aim, Why did my father, a local preacher, 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.240 What did he do to deserve that? In my best 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.720 guess is that he didn't do anything. He's just how 0:12:52.840 --> 0:13:02.719 life is. Life is unfair, imbalanced, it's cruel. Right. He 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.319 was a star in anyone's room. He was very charismatic. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.360 He was very smart. He was intelligent. He was a genius. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.079 He could pick up languages quick. He was very good 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.640 at reading rooms, reading people. He was a healer. He 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.240 was an extraordinary healer. Pastors noted how gifted he was, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.880 but also touched by the spirit. It was more than 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.040 just a calling or something that his grandmother said he'd do. 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:32.920 He was really made for it. But we try to 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.880 make sense of these things. So I rethought about it, 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.360 and this is what I came up with. That my 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.559 dad had violated a moral honor code and that the 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:49.640 ramifications of that debt penetrated another dimension, and he would 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.800 not be allowed to leave his human life without paying 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:57.720 that bondsman. My great grandmother, who was present at his birth, 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.719 she was a very powerful woman, they say, with a 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.080 very deep voice. Maybe that's where I get it from 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:06.200 A little bit saw signs of his anointing and declared 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.360 that he was special and that he was to be, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.439 in her words, a man of God, and that marked 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.040 him with the brand. And my father was special. He 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.680 was mostly fulfilled that mission as far as I'm concerned. 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.880 But when his life choices morally didn't add up to 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.880 his destined mission, the universe served him up a world 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:31.440 of pain that match the likes of job as payment 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.320 for undelivered services. So America may be in the same situation. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.920 She may have to pay the reaper a hard price 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.920 for failing to fulfill her mission. I really believe there's 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.400 a bounty on America's head for the sin and failure 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:50.200 of being so immoral. And if there is a God, 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.920 then maybe in death my father has earned his place 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.320 back into his good graces. But it was going to 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.440 have to be through great pain and suffering. 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.480 In Judeo Christian thinking, in the Old Testament, there was 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:10.680 always reparations, always represations. You never just took from people. 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:15.400 In fact, every fiftieth year there was something called the 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.880 season of Jubilee, and in that season of Jubilee, all 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.480 slaves were to be free, all debts were to be canceled, 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.800 all people were to be restored. And there was a 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.880 thinking among the early Jewish rabbis and all that if 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.560 that ever happened, if it ever actually happened, that the 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.400 Kingdom of God would come in his fullness. In the 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.880 New Testament, Jesus clearly taught that if you stole from somebody, 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.200 you didn't just replace what you stole. You had to 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:51.000 replace two, three fourfold what you stole. And until that happened, 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.840 there's a very powerful story of a tax person in 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.760 the Scripture that says he wants to follow Jesus. Jesus 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.840 doesn't say go get baptized. Jesus doesn't say, put some 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.080 all on your head. Jesus doesn't say, say how the 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.200 new year. Jesus doesn't say that. He said, who have 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.960 you stolen from? Zach kids? And he says, well, I 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.360 stole them different. He said, okay, go and return to 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.600 the folk that you have stolen from. And he goes out, 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.920 and he returned. He said, I've done even more than 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.440 just what I took. I restored three four four. And 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.280 then Jesus say, now salvation has come. Now words, he 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.560 couldn't just say I stole from all those folk, but oops, 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.600 now want to be saved? Can you accept me? And 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:30.240 Jesus says, said, you're forgiving. 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:31.640 No no, no, no no, no no no no. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:38.360 You have to restore what you're stolen, and then salvation. So, 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.560 whether we look at it historically or constitutionally or from 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:49.280 a religious perspective, the issue of reparation is a serious theological, moral, 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.280 and constitutional issue. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.920 How do you feel standing here? 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.680 Oh, it's a not a nuh nice place. It's pretty ugly, 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.720 feel like it's a Soviet type of compound, you know, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:13.399 the it's everything's flattened, the grass is patchy, and I 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.520 don't know. If you didn't know grave yard was here, 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.120 you just think it was a really badly unkept yard. 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.160 And my father, who didn't pay attention to those types 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.280 of things, probably would have liked to s to be 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.600 in a nicer place. It's too bad he's not. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.440 There's no headstones, it's all flat markers, and you're just 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.920 the only thing that's vertical are some of the flowers 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.600 that are poking up around. So we're pretty close by 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:45.880 the uh Newark Airport and the highway. Mean, well, thank 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:46.520 you for bringing me. 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.960 Here, Eric, thank you, And Dad, I'm sorry we don't 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:51.760 have a marker for you. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:53.480 But he did. 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.160 He doesn't live here anymore, so it doesn't matter what's 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:02.960 here or not here. Took a reparations documentary and a 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.520 discussion about race to get me back to see my father, 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:26.159 which is interesting. Yeah, anyway, this journey is bigger than us. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.000 It's bigger than the sound of our voice and our understanding, 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.760 but it is not bigger than a vision laid out 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.840 long before we arrived here on this hot blue spin 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:37.280 and rock you know America. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.240 In the context of this conversation about morality, this idea 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.000 that people often say that people shouldn't be judged by 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.120 the worst thing they've ever done? Or they asked that question, 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.160 should people be judged by the worst thing that they've 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.639 ever done? And I think sort of collectively, that's what 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.560 white Americans are grappling with now. Are we as white Americans? 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.800 Can we escape this thing? Can we escape this immoral 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:05.080 thing of slavery that's our legacy? Are we somehow captives 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.959 to this worst thing they've ever done? Can we ever 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:08.440 outlive it? 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:09.240 Can we ever outrun it? 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.480 Can we ever change it? Is reparation something that could 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.120 even change it? We're living in this time of reckoning 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.040 right now. And is there anything that we can do 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:24.840 that will balance the scale? Is there anything we can 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:26.680 put on the other side of the scale that will 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.359 equal the sins of the past. 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.960 Oh, well, that's a human thing. That's why reparations is 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.159 a heavy subject, because it's weighed down by centuries of 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.639 hand wrangling and debates over what it is to be human? 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.680 Who gets to be human? And alongside the idea of 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.520 debt and repayment between discrownal parties, we're also talking about 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:53.200 moral debt. Again, this is outside of cash or gold 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:58.040 or diamonds or oil, it's a moral repayment restitution. It's 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.560 one that perhaps can men fences and create bridges to 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.400 a more perfect union. And that's epic stuff. We'll need 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.960 more silence going forward so we can listen as we 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.119 search and try to rescue the ingredients that can make 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.240 our nation, in all its glory, a reality. It's important 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:21.240 to ask the big questions, how do we do reparations? Well, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.200 that depends on us facing a national moral reckoning and 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.320 thinking about my life and others I know who may 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.359 be dealing with existential crises can lay the blueprint of 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.920 how we approach these difficult questions and come up with 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:41.560 better answers. Yeah, better answers. Where do I always come 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:46.280 up with better answers? I know, I'll ask my mom. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:52.280 Sometime like, demand's more about than we can give. And 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:59.160 I was thinking sometime we are malnourished, are under nurtured 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:05.920 for the lives that are forced upon us. And I 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:12.240 think that Robert gave what he could. Sometimes I believe 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:17.399 that he might have been induced to things because of 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:22.120 his male nourishment in life and looking at others wishing 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:27.840 that he had this or that, and feeling inadequate. Sometimes, 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:32.520 you know, deeds didn't match up because you're trying to 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:37.920 reach for that ring grab and sometime you fall. But 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.879 I won't be harsh in how I judged his commitment. 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:49.359 I think he wanted very much to be a leader, 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.399 a person that gave, and those were the sentiments of 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:57.400 his last days. That's the reason I say you look 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.520 at someone's heart, because you can't really say you love 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:07.760 someone unless you are willing to look at the whole 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:13.919 of that person. They're good, they're bad, they're failures, their successes. 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.920 I don't think that he became the person that he 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:24.480 wanted to become for many reasons. I think that there 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:28.040 were times that life hit him so hard and he 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:33.280 was so discouraged that he couldn't bounce back. He was 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.960 afraid to say yes to life many times, and I 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.200 think that that was one of his greatest regrets. 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.000 Do you feel, because we've been talking about reparations in 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.080 the United States, that black people are kind of like 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.400 in this really unholy marriage, that they feel the same way. 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.320 That is very difficult to walk away from something that's 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.240 not working for them, that actually harms them, that can 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:02.679 actually do harm to them, continues to and they are 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.840 unwilling to because of their ultimate humanity, or what do 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:07.960 you think is going on there? 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:13.480 I think we stayed for very complex reasons, just as 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:17.760 one would stay in a marriage for very complex reasons. 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:23.080 And most of us have come to realize the sacrifice 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:28.400 and the toll that our four parents paid in their 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:33.639 own blood. And to walk away from this country, and 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:40.760 no matter how hateful and onerous it may be, to 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:47.200 walk away would be to ignore their sacrifice, to say 0:23:47.480 --> 0:23:50.640 that it was in vain. That is the way I feel. 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:55.639 They were not paid, but they built a country, they 0:23:55.800 --> 0:24:00.000 fought for a country, shed their blood, and were treating 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:06.560 it less than human beings. If I walked away before 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:12.680 their descendants had gotten their due in every way by 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:19.160 having a full measure, that would be the greatest dishonoring 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:23.879 of their sacrifice. So yes, I say, And I can't 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:29.560 just live on the laurels and say my four parent sacrifice. 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:34.879 It means that I must constantly work. There is a 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:37.760 scripture in the Bible says you must work out your 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:43.280 soul's salvation. So to me staying in this country, contributing 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:49.480 to it, seeing saying to it, no matter what you 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:54.560 do to me, how you dishonor me. I will honor 0:24:55.000 --> 0:25:02.240 what belongs to me. If we walk away and it 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.880 said we're giving up on this country. It's never going 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.000 to be what it should be, then all of that 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.800 would be lost. We can't allow that. 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:16.720 Lastly, I want to talk to you about morality to 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:22.679 America's personal responsibility and immorality and moral calling that they 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:26.920 put in their constitution. What would you say to the 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:30.879 government now that they have the opportunity to step forward 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:34.639 into that light? What is the forward motion for us 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:38.920 all for America? The government? Morality and immorality. 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:43.719 Well, there is a lesson that we need to reckon. 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:52.240 America taluts itself as being a Christian country in large part, 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:56.720