1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: This episode is dedicated to Sarah Miller Arnon, mother of 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: our producer Ben Arna. Sarah was a loving mother, wife, teacher, 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: and guiding light. We love you, Sarah until we meet again. 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm Erica Alexander. 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 2: That I'm Whitney Dow. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Reparations. The Big Payback, a production of Color 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: Farm Media, iHeartRadio, and The Black Effect Podcast Network. 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 3: That theme of paying back is also a very deeply 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 3: churched name. When I grew up, there was a songwek 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 3: saying called heyday is coming after Awhile, And there were 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: a number of songs that suggested that injustice just doesn't 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 3: get away. Now, when I think about the moral piece 13 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 3: of this, I want to look at it through two lenses. 14 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 3: One lens is the religious land of Judeo Christian perspective, 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: and then the other is from the constitutional And the 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 3: third one might be that many people don't realize Erica, 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 3: that for years there was no separate study of economics 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 3: in this country or in the world, that the study 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 3: of economics was a part of morral philosophy. In other words, 20 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: you would study. 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? 22 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: Did I hear what? Reverend Barber? 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: No? No? After Reveren Barber that. 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 4: Silence, Yes, I heard it. Why are we listening to silence? 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: Erica? 26 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: Well, you know, as a reminder of where we're all 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: going at this brief life's end, you know. And the 28 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: other day we went on a field trip to visit 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: my dad's cemetery out in New Jersey and I hadn't 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: been there in over thirty years. And we'll get into 31 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: why that is. But remember after we talked, before we left, 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: we just stood there for a little while and listened 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: to the silence. 34 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: I remember that. But why are you thinking about that 35 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 2: right now? 36 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: Because we've been going so fast. We threw ourselves into 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: this big reparations world and all that comes with it. 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: So maybe we need a moment to settle down and 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: just listen, stop talking, And if we did, maybe we'd 40 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: be able to hear the angels speak. I don't know. 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: Maybe I mean also to remember why we wanted to 42 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: do this. What do we want to get out of it? 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: What did you want to get out of it? 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: Well? 45 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 4: I think that I wanted to get a couple of 46 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 4: things out of it, something for myself that I wanted 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 4: to get a deeper understanding of this idea of reparations 48 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 4: and what it might mean for our country, because I 49 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 4: think that so much of the time you think you 50 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 4: understand something and you don't really understand it. You have 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 4: sort of a vague idea about it, and once you 52 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 4: dig into it, you realize it's so much more complicated 53 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 4: then something I want on a larger scale. I really 54 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 4: I've always talked about Eric. I know you laugh at it, 55 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 4: but this idea that I'm trying to say white people 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 4: and I really want. 57 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: What I mean by that, I wanted to bring. 58 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 4: White ears to this story that I think that so 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 4: much of the time white people think that the story 60 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 4: of reparations really is something for black people, so they 61 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 4: could hear themselves in that story. And I think if 62 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 4: you can bring white ears to the story, you also 63 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 4: have the opportunity to bring white hearts as well. 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: It's kind of like Reverend Barber. 65 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 4: Who's decade his life to the Poor People's Campaign and 66 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 4: the work of Martin Luther King, and he has this 67 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: goll of fusion politics, and what that means is that 68 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 4: the fates of black and white people are linked together. 69 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 4: They're fused together, that we aren't on these separate journeys 70 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 4: that were connected, and so what affects one affects the other. 71 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 4: And I think sort of what we've done here, Eric, 72 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 4: I hope we've done is we've kind of been trying 73 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 4: to do fusion storytelling, where we show that the black 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 4: and white story are intimately together and you can't understand 75 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 4: one without the other. 76 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. 77 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's been a hell of a journey, and I 78 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: got to give it up for the race advocates, people 79 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: like Reverend Barber, the Poor People's Campaign, He's amazing. I 80 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: don't know how they all stay sane in this world. 81 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: It's exhausting. I mean, we're definitely not the same people 82 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: we were when we started this, or perhaps we were 83 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: always our same selves, and this process created extraordinary conditions 84 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: to test the outer limits of who we thought we 85 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: were versus who we really are. As you can see, 86 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: I've become confusions in between all this. But yeah, stress 87 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: it's a purifier. Pain and suffering too. 88 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 4: Well, what do you mean by that, Erica, that it's 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 4: a purifier, Like who's a pure fine? 90 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, that's actually a deep question, 91 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: because if you know, if stress and pain could purify something, 92 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: you think the United States would be in a better space. 93 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: But I think it's been so successful at what it's 94 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: done in terms of the oppression on people of color 95 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,799 Speaker 1: and black people, that it really hasn't experienced the pain 96 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: enough and suffering of that to change. I really don't. 97 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: But before our trip to the cemetery, had I ever 98 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: told you about my dad's death? 99 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,119 Speaker 4: No, we've talked a lot about your family, of course 100 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 4: your mom know, not specifically about your father's passing. 101 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: Why do you want to talk about him now? 102 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: Well, because my father's story is a tell of morality, 103 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: and that topic indirectly is relevant to what we are 104 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: talking about. What lies underneath this whole reparations talk is 105 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: one of personal character and accountability morality. So okay, let's 106 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: talk about it, and let's talk about our road trip. 107 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: Glad we took Revern Barber along with us to sit shotgun. 108 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: He knows a little something about the road we were traveling. 109 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: He certainly does. In fact, he led the way you. 110 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 3: Would study moral philosophy, And as a part of moral philosophy, 111 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 3: you've studied economics because the suggestion was there was no 112 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 3: way to be moral if you were emmral with your 113 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 3: money and ear marl with the way you treated people 114 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 3: based on their relationships with money and wealth that was 115 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 3: separated in America in large part due to slavery, because 116 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 3: you can't, on the one hand, say that the economics 117 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 3: is a moral issue when you build a system on 118 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: slavery that has five underpinnings, and the first of it 119 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: is evil economics and an evil economics. And I've kind 120 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: of coined these five evil economics, meaning that the end 121 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 3: justifies the means. So if your goal is to get 122 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 3: wealthy and to exceed other nations that have been in 123 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: existence thousands of years before you, and the only way 124 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 3: to do that is to turn people into property, then 125 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 3: the end your wealth justifies the means, which is a 126 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: form of evil economics. 127 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: Do you know where the grid is? 128 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: I had no idea. 129 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: She said it was under a big oak. I was 130 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: hoping that there would be somebody here we could ask. 131 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: So Erica, how did your dad die? 132 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: Well, it was pretty brutal. Let me put it to 133 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: you this way. If he had been an animal, they 134 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: would have put him down years before, just to end 135 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: his suffering. But I don't know, Whitney. The details are 136 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: like pain pornography, and I don't want to get into that. 137 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 6: So we're just coming out of the Holland Tunnel into 138 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 6: New Jersey. 139 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: We're at Rose Mount Cemetery in New Jersey, Elizabeth, New Jersey, 140 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: and my father is buried here and I don't know 141 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: exactly where, but my mother said it was in front 142 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: of a oak tree and the office is closed. 143 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 6: There's a lot of trees here. 144 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: I think that there's a big oak tree over there. 145 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the identifying marker of this place is that 146 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: everything's flat. There are no like standing graves. I don't 147 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: know if that's just what they decided so they can 148 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: maybe put more people here, but uh, it's not the 149 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: prettiest place. Well. His name was Robert Lee Murray Alexander. 150 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: It was a preacher and he lived a tough life. 151 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: He was also a complicated, fascinating person. Born in the 152 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: South of West, he was an orphan and his hobole 153 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: preacher life certainly took its toll, and in his short 154 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: life he ran fast, but he wasn't built for speed. 155 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: I don't know where it is. In fact, I haven't 156 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: been here in over thirty years. He died in nineteen 157 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: ninety three and we buried him and I haven't come 158 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: back since. He was born with a bad heart. He 159 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: died of congestive heart failure and adult diabetes. He was 160 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: I think fifty years old and he passed away in 161 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: East New York, Brooklyn. We lived in the parsonage where 162 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: my mother, Sammy, also an orphan and soon to be 163 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: a widow, performed her vow to death to us part 164 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: and she took care of him until he breathed his 165 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: last And it wasn't easy because toward the end of 166 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: his life his legs started to rot and turn ganggreen 167 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: because of the circular it was so compromised. He died 168 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: January thirteenth, nineteen ninety three. It was just before I 169 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: was going to start the Cosby Show, and funeral director 170 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: had an interesting comment that he said to my mother. 171 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: He said that my dad must have been paying a 172 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: debt because it marked his flesh and bone is fair trade. 173 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: He told my mother that he had never seen a 174 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: body that had gone through as much pain and suffering 175 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: and all his years of undertaking. 176 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: Wow, I see. 177 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 3: The next one issue would be sick sociology, and that 178 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: is that people can be around each other physically, but 179 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 3: there has to be a hierarchy. There has to be 180 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: a us them, you cannot have an equal society. The 181 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 3: third pillar would be political pathology, and that is that 182 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: all of your politics are designed to protect this evil 183 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 3: economics and to protect this sociology, so much so that 184 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 3: when you even write your documents, you have to make 185 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: sure that the system of slavery is protected, because you 186 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 3: can't even have a unity or a constitution without that. 187 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: The last two bad biology. So in the seventeenth century, 188 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: a French scientist came up with this idea. You can 189 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: read about this in one of Cornell West's book called 190 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 3: Prophesied Deliverance, in which they said you could determine brain 191 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 3: size by skin color. You saw some of this in 192 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 3: the movie Django, and people thought it was just the movie. 193 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 3: It was actually real. There were scientists who suggested that 194 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: you could determine brain size by skin color. Therefore, skin 195 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: color became a sign of one's lesser humanity, or actually 196 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: one's lack of humanity. And then the last one is 197 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: heretical ontology. Ontology is the study of God's intentions. And 198 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 3: so the argument was that God intended the evil economists, 199 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 3: God intended the sixth sociology, God intended the political pathology. 200 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: God intended the bad biology. God intended the system of slavery, 201 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: which is in itself a hered heress. It is the 202 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 3: abuse and missus of theology. So when you asked that 203 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 3: question about from a moral perspective, I just wanted to 204 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: lay that out first. 205 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: Now, to be clear, my father was no Hitler, no Polepot, 206 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: no Dick Cheney, and yet in an unfair way here 207 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: he was in East New York mythology. Now that's near Brownsville, 208 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: and this is the early nineties. It's a real rough 209 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: place that his physical body looked so tortured that it 210 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: was a standout visual for pain and suffering. It's deep. 211 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: But why aim, Why did my father, a local preacher, 212 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: What did he do to deserve that? In my best 213 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: guess is that he didn't do anything. He's just how 214 00:12:52,840 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: life is. Life is unfair, imbalanced, it's cruel. Right. He 215 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: was a star in anyone's room. He was very charismatic. 216 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: He was very smart. He was intelligent. He was a genius. 217 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: He could pick up languages quick. He was very good 218 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: at reading rooms, reading people. He was a healer. He 219 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: was an extraordinary healer. Pastors noted how gifted he was, 220 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: but also touched by the spirit. It was more than 221 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: just a calling or something that his grandmother said he'd do. 222 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: He was really made for it. But we try to 223 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: make sense of these things. So I rethought about it, 224 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: and this is what I came up with. That my 225 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: dad had violated a moral honor code and that the 226 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: ramifications of that debt penetrated another dimension, and he would 227 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: not be allowed to leave his human life without paying 228 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: that bondsman. My great grandmother, who was present at his birth, 229 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: she was a very powerful woman, they say, with a 230 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: very deep voice. Maybe that's where I get it from 231 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: A little bit saw signs of his anointing and declared 232 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: that he was special and that he was to be, 233 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: in her words, a man of God, and that marked 234 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: him with the brand. And my father was special. He 235 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: was mostly fulfilled that mission as far as I'm concerned. 236 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: But when his life choices morally didn't add up to 237 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: his destined mission, the universe served him up a world 238 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: of pain that match the likes of job as payment 239 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: for undelivered services. So America may be in the same situation. 240 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: She may have to pay the reaper a hard price 241 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: for failing to fulfill her mission. I really believe there's 242 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: a bounty on America's head for the sin and failure 243 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: of being so immoral. And if there is a God, 244 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: then maybe in death my father has earned his place 245 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: back into his good graces. But it was going to 246 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: have to be through great pain and suffering. 247 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 3: In Judeo Christian thinking, in the Old Testament, there was 248 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: always reparations, always represations. You never just took from people. 249 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: In fact, every fiftieth year there was something called the 250 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 3: season of Jubilee, and in that season of Jubilee, all 251 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 3: slaves were to be free, all debts were to be canceled, 252 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: all people were to be restored. And there was a 253 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: thinking among the early Jewish rabbis and all that if 254 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: that ever happened, if it ever actually happened, that the 255 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 3: Kingdom of God would come in his fullness. In the 256 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 3: New Testament, Jesus clearly taught that if you stole from somebody, 257 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 3: you didn't just replace what you stole. You had to 258 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 3: replace two, three fourfold what you stole. And until that happened, 259 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: there's a very powerful story of a tax person in 260 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 3: the Scripture that says he wants to follow Jesus. Jesus 261 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: doesn't say go get baptized. Jesus doesn't say, put some 262 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: all on your head. Jesus doesn't say, say how the 263 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 3: new year. Jesus doesn't say that. He said, who have 264 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: you stolen from? Zach kids? And he says, well, I 265 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 3: stole them different. He said, okay, go and return to 266 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: the folk that you have stolen from. And he goes out, 267 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 3: and he returned. He said, I've done even more than 268 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 3: just what I took. I restored three four four. And 269 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: then Jesus say, now salvation has come. Now words, he 270 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: couldn't just say I stole from all those folk, but oops, 271 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 3: now want to be saved? Can you accept me? And 272 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: Jesus says, said, you're forgiving. 273 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 5: No no, no, no no, no no no no. 274 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: You have to restore what you're stolen, and then salvation. So, 275 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: whether we look at it historically or constitutionally or from 276 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 3: a religious perspective, the issue of reparation is a serious theological, moral, 277 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: and constitutional issue. 278 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 6: How do you feel standing here? 279 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: Oh, it's a not a nuh nice place. It's pretty ugly, 280 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: feel like it's a Soviet type of compound, you know, 281 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: the it's everything's flattened, the grass is patchy, and I 282 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: don't know. If you didn't know grave yard was here, 283 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: you just think it was a really badly unkept yard. 284 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: And my father, who didn't pay attention to those types 285 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: of things, probably would have liked to s to be 286 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: in a nicer place. It's too bad he's not. 287 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 7: There's no headstones, it's all flat markers, and you're just 288 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 7: the only thing that's vertical are some of the flowers 289 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 7: that are poking up around. So we're pretty close by 290 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 7: the uh Newark Airport and the highway. Mean, well, thank 291 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 7: you for bringing me. 292 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: Here, Eric, thank you, And Dad, I'm sorry we don't 293 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: have a marker for you. 294 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: But he did. 295 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: He doesn't live here anymore, so it doesn't matter what's 296 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: here or not here. Took a reparations documentary and a 297 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: discussion about race to get me back to see my father, 298 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: which is interesting. Yeah, anyway, this journey is bigger than us. 299 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: It's bigger than the sound of our voice and our understanding, 300 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: but it is not bigger than a vision laid out 301 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: long before we arrived here on this hot blue spin 302 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: and rock you know America. 303 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 4: In the context of this conversation about morality, this idea 304 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 4: that people often say that people shouldn't be judged by 305 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 4: the worst thing they've ever done? Or they asked that question, 306 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 4: should people be judged by the worst thing that they've 307 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 4: ever done? And I think sort of collectively, that's what 308 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 4: white Americans are grappling with now. Are we as white Americans? 309 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 4: Can we escape this thing? Can we escape this immoral 310 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 4: thing of slavery that's our legacy? Are we somehow captives 311 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 4: to this worst thing they've ever done? Can we ever 312 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 4: outlive it? 313 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 3: Can we ever outrun it? 314 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 4: Can we ever change it? Is reparation something that could 315 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 4: even change it? We're living in this time of reckoning 316 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 4: right now. And is there anything that we can do 317 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 4: that will balance the scale? Is there anything we can 318 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 4: put on the other side of the scale that will 319 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 4: equal the sins of the past. 320 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: Oh, well, that's a human thing. That's why reparations is 321 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: a heavy subject, because it's weighed down by centuries of 322 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: hand wrangling and debates over what it is to be human? 323 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: Who gets to be human? And alongside the idea of 324 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: debt and repayment between discrownal parties, we're also talking about 325 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: moral debt. Again, this is outside of cash or gold 326 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: or diamonds or oil, it's a moral repayment restitution. It's 327 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: one that perhaps can men fences and create bridges to 328 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: a more perfect union. And that's epic stuff. We'll need 329 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: more silence going forward so we can listen as we 330 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: search and try to rescue the ingredients that can make 331 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: our nation, in all its glory, a reality. It's important 332 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: to ask the big questions, how do we do reparations? Well, 333 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: that depends on us facing a national moral reckoning and 334 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: thinking about my life and others I know who may 335 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: be dealing with existential crises can lay the blueprint of 336 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: how we approach these difficult questions and come up with 337 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: better answers. Yeah, better answers. Where do I always come 338 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: up with better answers? I know, I'll ask my mom. 339 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 5: Sometime like, demand's more about than we can give. And 340 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 5: I was thinking sometime we are malnourished, are under nurtured 341 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 5: for the lives that are forced upon us. And I 342 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 5: think that Robert gave what he could. Sometimes I believe 343 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 5: that he might have been induced to things because of 344 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 5: his male nourishment in life and looking at others wishing 345 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 5: that he had this or that, and feeling inadequate. Sometimes, 346 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 5: you know, deeds didn't match up because you're trying to 347 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 5: reach for that ring grab and sometime you fall. But 348 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 5: I won't be harsh in how I judged his commitment. 349 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 5: I think he wanted very much to be a leader, 350 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 5: a person that gave, and those were the sentiments of 351 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 5: his last days. That's the reason I say you look 352 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 5: at someone's heart, because you can't really say you love 353 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 5: someone unless you are willing to look at the whole 354 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 5: of that person. They're good, they're bad, they're failures, their successes. 355 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 5: I don't think that he became the person that he 356 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 5: wanted to become for many reasons. I think that there 357 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 5: were times that life hit him so hard and he 358 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 5: was so discouraged that he couldn't bounce back. He was 359 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 5: afraid to say yes to life many times, and I 360 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 5: think that that was one of his greatest regrets. 361 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: Do you feel, because we've been talking about reparations in 362 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: the United States, that black people are kind of like 363 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: in this really unholy marriage, that they feel the same way. 364 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: That is very difficult to walk away from something that's 365 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: not working for them, that actually harms them, that can 366 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: actually do harm to them, continues to and they are 367 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: unwilling to because of their ultimate humanity, or what do 368 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: you think is going on there? 369 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 5: I think we stayed for very complex reasons, just as 370 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 5: one would stay in a marriage for very complex reasons. 371 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 5: And most of us have come to realize the sacrifice 372 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 5: and the toll that our four parents paid in their 373 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 5: own blood. And to walk away from this country, and 374 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 5: no matter how hateful and onerous it may be, to 375 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 5: walk away would be to ignore their sacrifice, to say 376 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 5: that it was in vain. That is the way I feel. 377 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 5: They were not paid, but they built a country, they 378 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 5: fought for a country, shed their blood, and were treating 379 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 5: it less than human beings. If I walked away before 380 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 5: their descendants had gotten their due in every way by 381 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 5: having a full measure, that would be the greatest dishonoring 382 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 5: of their sacrifice. So yes, I say, And I can't 383 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 5: just live on the laurels and say my four parent sacrifice. 384 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 5: It means that I must constantly work. There is a 385 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 5: scripture in the Bible says you must work out your 386 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 5: soul's salvation. So to me staying in this country, contributing 387 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 5: to it, seeing saying to it, no matter what you 388 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 5: do to me, how you dishonor me. I will honor 389 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 5: what belongs to me. If we walk away and it 390 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 5: said we're giving up on this country. It's never going 391 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 5: to be what it should be, then all of that 392 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 5: would be lost. We can't allow that. 393 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: Lastly, I want to talk to you about morality to 394 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: America's personal responsibility and immorality and moral calling that they 395 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: put in their constitution. What would you say to the 396 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: government now that they have the opportunity to step forward 397 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: into that light? What is the forward motion for us 398 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: all for America? The government? Morality and immorality. 399 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 5: Well, there is a lesson that we need to reckon. 400 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 5: America taluts itself as being a Christian country in large part, 401 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 5: but we seem to have lost our moral pompous and 402 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 5: now the word democracy is threatened. You're hearing people say 403 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 5: that our constitution is outdated. You're hearing people say that 404 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 5: it's all right if one particular group are our majority group, 405 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 5: does whatever they wish, that the ends justify the means, 406 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 5: and that the God that we have created and is 407 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 5: not the one that has created us, and we seem 408 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 5: to serve that God, to prefer to serve that God, 409 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 5: then the one that says to us, love your enemy. 410 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 5: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 411 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 5: Be just toward every man. Stand fast in the faith 412 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 5: that was once delivered to you by your ancestors. Teach 413 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 5: your children what I have done for you, and to 414 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 5: you how I brought you, so that they will worship 415 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 5: me and they will recognize the hand of God. All 416 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 5: of those things are in the Bible, setting a light 417 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 5: a path for us. But we have chosen to create 418 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 5: our own God, one of gold, one of silver, one 419 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 5: that says, take what you wish. It doesn't matter if 420 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 5: the other fella starves, It doesn't matter if the other 421 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 5: fella doesn't have a home. That's our morality. Now. Our 422 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 5: morality is, don't worry about righteousness getting you into a kingdom. 423 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 5: You can always buy Peter at the gate anyway. Who 424 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 5: believes in heaven anymore? Our heaven is right here, and 425 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 5: we can make hell for those folks whenever we want to. 426 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 5: So now they say, oh, you can't protest anymore because 427 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 5: it's getting dangerous from me, Not because you don't have 428 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 5: a right to your voice. You don't have a right 429 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 5: to any action that says you can take what belongs 430 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 5: to you. We say survival of the fittest, but we 431 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 5: don't want to test the fitness of certain people. You know, 432 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 5: we have a morality that says one thing does another. 433 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 5: The Native Americans said, we speak with the four tongues. 434 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 5: I sometimes say we speak from both orifices, and none 435 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 5: of that is beneficial. So I think that America is 436 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 5: soon coming to the time when she will be called 437 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 5: to redeem herself or to fight for whatever new existence 438 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 5: that she's says she wants to maintain. You know, you 439 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 5: will either give in and say that the people of 440 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 5: all races, all stresses of life, you have a right 441 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 5: to exist and we will live in peace, or we 442 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 5: will say no, you will be annihilated, and only as 443 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 5: they say that krem day like crime will survive, and 444 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 5: we'll see. I think we're fast coming to that place. 445 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: Mom, one last thing, Could you sing a little bit 446 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: of the star spangled banner? 447 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 5: Oh say? Can you see by the doge? 448 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 4: This podcast is produced by Eric Alexander ben Arnon and 449 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 4: Whitney Down. 450 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: The executive producers are Charlemagne the God and Dolly s. Bishop. 451 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: The supervising producer is Nicole Childers. 452 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 4: And the lead producer is Devin Mavock Robbins, the producer 453 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 4: writer is cersee Castle, and the associate producer is Kevin Fann, 454 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: with additional research support. 455 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: Provided by Nile Blast. Original music by dj dpp. 456 00:30:33,760 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: Oh Gom Step Back, Mahelia, a Star's Board, Hach Reparations. 457 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: The Big Payback is a production of color Farm Media, 458 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with 459 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: Best Case Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 460 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 461 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: favorite shows.