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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Round Up with Nancy Grace and

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. Y'all better hang on to your beds. Today

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Speaker 1: it is read Karen Reid, troop and productor All morning,

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Miss Grace. How are you, sugar?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what. I'm a little shell shocked.

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Speaker 2: You know, Cheryl, you and I do not have any

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Speaker 2: skin in the game, no dog in the fight. I'm

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Speaker 2: not trying this case. I did not investigate this case.

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Speaker 2: I am responding to what I see coming out of

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Speaker 2: the courtroom. And I have never seen well, maybe I have,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not remembering them. So many bitter people angry

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Speaker 2: because we have an opinion different than their opinion. I

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Speaker 2: don't get it.

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Speaker 1: I don't get it either. And I've never seen a

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Speaker 1: case where there's no gray. It is team Karen Reid

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Speaker 1: or team John o'keef and that's it.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's what I think the problem is. I think

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Speaker 2: the state's got very compelling evidence, is strong evidence, but

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Speaker 2: I think the state's witnesses have some credibility problems. And

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Speaker 2: as you kept pointing out to me on MSM, which

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Speaker 2: is hitting YouTube today, when the lead investigator does not

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Speaker 2: go to the crime scene. That's terrible. That is a huge,

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Speaker 2: huge dereliction of duty. I mean, before I would take

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Speaker 2: a case to a trial, and I certainly was not

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Speaker 2: the lead investigator, I would go and ife all the witnesses,

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Speaker 2: look for other witnesses, take my own photos, and of

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Speaker 2: course go the crime scene. I mean that was number one.

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Speaker 2: So I could understand. And can I tell us, Cheryl

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Speaker 2: mula Callum, how many times I could trip up a

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Speaker 2: defense witness because A they were lying and B they

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Speaker 2: hadn't been to the scene so they didn't know what

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Speaker 2: they were talking about.

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Speaker 1: Got to point out, you're not talking about a burglary,

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Speaker 1: You're talking about the potential murder of a police officer.

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Speaker 1: And you don't go to the crime scene, and you

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Speaker 1: don't collect everybody's phone, and you don't go in that house,

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Speaker 1: and you only interview three people like it's mind boggling

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Speaker 1: to me that he didn't think he was about to

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Speaker 1: have some serious credibility issues.

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Speaker 2: I think another issue is this, although everybody and their

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Speaker 2: cousin seems to hate police. Now, not me and not you,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure, not my family, but a lot of people

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Speaker 2: hate police for various reasons, and some of them justified.

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Speaker 2: But that said, even though they may be comb be haters,

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Speaker 2: and they expect a higher degree of behavior, a higher

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Speaker 2: degree of credibility from a police officer. And I agree

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Speaker 2: with that because the state and police officers are put

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Speaker 2: people in jail, so they darn well better be telling

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Speaker 2: the truth and they better be right, and they better

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Speaker 2: have done their job. So the anger and the bitterness

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Speaker 2: when you find out a cop didn't do their job,

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Speaker 2: did not go to the crime scene, or you suspect

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Speaker 2: a cop planted evidence, it's a deeper, a much deeper

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Speaker 2: betrayal than from somebody you don't know. It's almost you

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Speaker 2: trust them to do the right thing. You believe they're

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Speaker 2: going to do the right thing, at least do their job,

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Speaker 2: and when they don't, it's a deeper betrayal. I think

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Speaker 2: people are feeling that bitterness, specifically over the lead detective,

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Speaker 2: and because of the lead detective, and because of Proctor

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Speaker 2: and his highly inappropriate comments about Karen Reid. It's just

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Speaker 2: put a bad taste in everybody's mouth. Now, as a

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Speaker 2: trial lawyer, I can compartmentalize and keep my eye on

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Speaker 2: did she kill him? To hey, Like I've said, don't

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Speaker 2: expect nouns and priests and virgens to testify for the

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Speaker 2: state that a going to happen. But you have to

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Speaker 2: look at what happened. And this is what gets me.

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Speaker 2: Tell me if I'm wrong, because I mean, I dare

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Speaker 2: to look at Twitter. Last night I just closed it

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Speaker 2: up about how you and I have not been following

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Speaker 2: the case and we don't know about we do and

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Speaker 2: we have. But when I have a multiple witnesses state

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Speaker 2: that she said, what did I do? Did I do something?

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Speaker 2: I mean, do you remember when your sister fell in

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Speaker 2: the pool, the empty pool? I never once heard you

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Speaker 2: say did I do that? Did I? Because you didn't?

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Speaker 2: And I think that's like O. J. Simpson is saying,

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Speaker 2: if I did it, you didn't do it. Well.

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Speaker 1: See that's the problem I have, and that's why I

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Speaker 1: have equated him with Mark Furman.

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Speaker 2: You mean the detective, yes, proctor.

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Speaker 1: Once you make your mind up that this person is

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Speaker 1: not credible because they said they didn't use a word,

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Speaker 1: then they used it, then suddenly he's out there planting evidence.

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Speaker 1: We are seeing the same thing here. This guy says, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the time's wrong on the warrant, and I didn't go

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Speaker 1: to the crime scene and I only talked to three people,

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Speaker 1: and after sixteen hours I had it wrapped up. Nobody's

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Speaker 1: buying that on a murder of a police officer. So

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Speaker 1: now they're saying, well, he then had to plant the

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Speaker 1: tail light, he busted the tail light.

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Speaker 2: He cared so little they did a slipshod job, but

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Speaker 2: he cared enough to frame somebody. I mean, you can't

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Speaker 2: have both of those.

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Speaker 1: You can't have both of those. But here's the lesson

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Speaker 1: for junior detectives and people coming up. This is what

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Speaker 1: happens in our world. Nancy. If you lie about one thing,

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Speaker 1: light about everything, and you can't unring a bell, you've

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Speaker 1: got twelve people sitting over there, and you've made fun

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Speaker 1: of suicide, You've made fun of people's medical problems, You've

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Speaker 1: made fun of women in every derogatory way you can

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Speaker 1: think of. They have to forgive a lot and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: he could be a complete douchebag in his private life.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Is that some ten of coal legal time?

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Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with.

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Speaker 1: It is it's Latin sure, total pricas. So what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying is, seriously, though, that's what we're expecting that jury

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Speaker 1: to be able to do to say, hey, maybe I

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Speaker 1: had somebody in my family commit suicide, and he's wishing

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Speaker 1: this on this person that he already made his mind

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Speaker 1: up because she's a whack job his opinion. She's the

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Speaker 1: sea word that he didn't even want to say in court.

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Speaker 1: He had to spell it. So that's how bad he

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Speaker 1: knew that. Look and again, if they forgive that, he

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Speaker 1: is this ass hat? Okay, great? How can he be

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Speaker 1: this person in the middle of an investigation Texan high

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Speaker 1: school friends? He hopes he finds nudes of her and

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Speaker 1: then releases her medical issues in the most heinous way

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Speaker 1: and elementary school playground way. But I'm sure everything was

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Speaker 1: above board in the investigation. I don't think they're going

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Speaker 1: to buy that.

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Speaker 2: No. I think that's the big problem. I think that

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Speaker 2: the credibility issue with rocked Her is so vast the

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Speaker 2: state may not be able to overcome it. Now. Do

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Speaker 2: I think that she murdered O'Keefe. I don't know that

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Speaker 2: murder is the right charge. I think that she was angry.

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Speaker 2: Why does she back up for twenty wait how many feet?

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Speaker 2: At what speed?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Twenty four miles an hour?

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Speaker 2: She backed up for sixty feet, as I recall that

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Speaker 2: this is off the top of my head on nearly

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Speaker 2: one o'clock in the morning, where he was found. She

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Speaker 2: backed up sixty feet at twenty four mph. Now we

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Speaker 2: know that's where she was at the time. She backed

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Speaker 2: up because her data they caught the black box, the

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Speaker 2: you know, the NAV, the NAV system. It's outside Albert's home,

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Speaker 2: and that is where the broken tail light, what's left

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Speaker 2: of it, is found outside his home. Her own NAV

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Speaker 2: place is herd there at sixty feet backwards at twenty

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Speaker 2: four miles an hour. I think she was angry. We

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Speaker 2: know they were having a horrible argument and she backed up.

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Speaker 2: I don't think she meant to kill him. But when you,

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Speaker 2: for instance, hold a gun to somebody's head and you

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Speaker 2: end up pulling the trigger and shooting them, you can't say, yes,

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Speaker 2: I held the gun up, I was just trying to

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Speaker 2: scare them. That noe. Under the law, that's still a murder.

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Speaker 2: I think she was trying to bump him or scare

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Speaker 2: him and didn't mean to kill him. That's what I

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Speaker 2: think happened.

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Speaker 1: The issue is what's not there. There's no blood there,

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Speaker 1: there's no injury to him. Where the bumper would have

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Speaker 1: hit him on his legs or his abdomen or his hips.

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Speaker 1: Where are the injuries that a car hit him? Most

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Speaker 1: experts are going to tell you you've got to go about

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Speaker 1: fifty miles an hour to knock somebody out of their shoes,

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Speaker 1: not twenty four. Now are there problems? There's problems on

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Speaker 1: both sides. That's the issue when you do a half

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Speaker 1: assed investigation, when you make your mind up, Oh this

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Speaker 1: bitch did it. We're done. You're not done. How many

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Speaker 1: times Nancy did you send us back? How many times

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Speaker 1: did you say I need more? We could bring you

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Speaker 1: a video of the person shooting them, and you'd go,

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Speaker 1: where's the shellcase? And where's where's a witness? I need

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Speaker 1: an eyewitness or an air witness. You always want more.

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Speaker 2: You're arguing could it would have? Should? I'm just asking

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Speaker 2: you very simply, do you think she did it?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, because they have shown me nothing so far.

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Speaker 2: Well, Cheryl, if you don't know, if the jury doesn't know,

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Speaker 2: they have to equit. That's not even grounds from mistrial.

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Speaker 2: But what do you think of Lally that he claims

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Speaker 2: red Lally? Excuse me claims? Reid said over and over

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Speaker 2: I hit him, I head am, I hit him.

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Speaker 1: Here's what I think. I was spoiled rotten by you.

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Speaker 1: So when I see the first three or four witnesses

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, are these prosecution witnesses? They sound like

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Speaker 1: they're testifying for the defense. It seemed to me that

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Speaker 1: none of the witnesses right out of the gate were

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Speaker 1: prepped by the prosecution at all. So at first I

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Speaker 1: was not impressed what I watched when Proctor was on

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Speaker 1: the stand. If you noticed, the defense attorney repeatedly asked

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Speaker 1: questions and the prosecution would say objection, and the judge

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Speaker 1: would say sustained, but the jury heard it. He walked

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Speaker 1: them right to it. You don't know the chain of custody.

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Speaker 1: You said you didn't know the Alberts. Now we know

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Speaker 1: that you know three. Well, then in about two minutes

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Speaker 1: he had to admit he knew four of them, and

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Speaker 1: it asked one to babysit his children. The other one

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Speaker 1: they were so drunk in their city vehicle that he

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Speaker 1: left his gun and badging there. So you have created

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Speaker 1: this whole thing where you have zero integrity, not even

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Speaker 1: an integrity issue. Mark Furman lied about using one word

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Speaker 1: this guy has shown every step of the way he

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Speaker 1: did not do what John O'Keeffe's family deserved. And that's

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Speaker 1: my problem with the whole thing. I don't think he

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Speaker 1: will never be able to recover every single case he

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Speaker 1: has ever been the lead on. They should come back

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Speaker 1: and demand a review.

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Speaker 2: Oh did you know I'm hearing rumblings that the Walsh

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Speaker 2: case is in jeopardy. Remember Anna Walsh? Oh? Yes, murdered

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Speaker 2: and most likely dismembered, leaving behind her little boys. And

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Speaker 2: the husband did it the art fraudster. Yeah, I'm getting

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Speaker 2: rumblings that this may affect that case.

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Speaker 1: And it should every case he's ever touched. And that's

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Speaker 1: the problem. And so far I've heard zero evidence that

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Speaker 1: John O'Keefe was murdered. We hadn't heard it yet. It

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Speaker 1: may be coming.

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Speaker 2: Okay, woll whoa whoa WoT cause of death is a

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Speaker 2: blunt trauma in hypothermia. So you think that blunt trauma

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Speaker 2: was an accident?

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know that. If he fell backwards and

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Speaker 1: hit the fire hydrant, I don't know. Maybe he slipped

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Speaker 1: on ice. We don't know. That's the problem. Even the

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Speaker 1: lead detective said he thought he got beat up when

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Speaker 1: he first saw him.

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Speaker 2: What did you make of what our medical examiner told

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Speaker 2: us yesterday regarding those BikeE marks on his arm? What

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Speaker 2: we think maybe BikeE marks?

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Speaker 1: Right? I thought it was well stated. My problem with

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Speaker 1: it is that dog has no bottom jaw. That's weird.

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Speaker 1: The lines are not the same distance apart, they're not

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Speaker 1: the same width, it's not the same pattern. There's these

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Speaker 1: little sections of parallel injuries. None of them are the same. Again,

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Speaker 1: for this tail light, if you've got one jagged end

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Speaker 1: of a tail light that's going to cut you, that's

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Speaker 1: not parallel marks. I've seen nothing from that broken tail

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Speaker 1: light that would cause that. There's not two protruding ends

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Speaker 1: of glass would have made those marks. So again, that's

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Speaker 1: a magic tail light. I mean, the whole thing is asinine.

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Speaker 1: And they're talking about the one arm, and I ask again,

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Speaker 1: if she hit him dead on, where's the injury to

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Speaker 1: his stomach, his hips, his knees, his thighs. They're not there.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't look like a car injury to me.

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Speaker 2: One thing that concerns, well, a lot of things concerned me,

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Speaker 2: mostly the credibility of the state's witnesses. They've got a

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Speaker 2: huge problem But what has concerned me from the beginning

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Speaker 2: is the injury to his head. I don't understand how

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Speaker 2: that would have happened unless he had already been knocked

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Speaker 2: down or was already on his knees in some prone position,

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Speaker 2: and then he was hit with the car. And I

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Speaker 2: need to know more about the DNA on the bumper.

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Speaker 2: Is it touched DNA? What is it? If it's a

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Speaker 2: blood that means more than if it's you know, touch

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Speaker 2: a DNA from your skin, You have to filial cells.

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Speaker 1: That brings up an excellent point because if he was

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Speaker 1: on his knees backwards and the bumper is what split

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Speaker 1: his head open, then how did the tail light get

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Speaker 1: on the front of his clothing? Both of those things

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Speaker 1: can't be true.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of the statements that multiple with

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Speaker 2: this claim? They heard her say I did it? Did

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Speaker 2: I do it? How can that be explained?

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Speaker 1: That's a spontaneous utterance that they're going to have to

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Speaker 1: get past, there's no doubt. But how drunk was she?

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Speaker 1: That would be the first thing I would talk about.

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Speaker 1: And are they miss hearing or did they all get

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Speaker 1: together and come up with this, because you know they're

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Speaker 1: covering up for what they did. So again, you've got

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Speaker 1: a police officer that's got the wrong time on a warrant.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't interview everybody that was at that house. He

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Speaker 1: takes the word of three people that would have had

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Speaker 1: the reason to cover up if they did something to him.

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Speaker 1: He says that John o'keith never went in that house.

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Speaker 1: He has no proof of that. He's got a videotape

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Speaker 1: with time missing from it. If he did not participate

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Speaker 1: in some type of cover up, his actions did every

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Speaker 1: single thing to make people go, hey, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of f's up. Because I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: right now, I know you were talking about troop or

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Speaker 1: product or needed to spanking. If I came to you

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Speaker 1: and I had a warrant with the time role on

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Speaker 1: a police officer's murder, Nancy Grace, please, you would still

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Speaker 1: be cussing me out rightfully.

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Speaker 2: So, Cheryl, I hear what you're saying. The state's witnesses

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Speaker 2: did a horrible job, and the prosecutors trying to clean

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Speaker 2: it all up. But I'm looking at a different issue.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the truth. I'm trying to determine the truth,

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Speaker 2: and I don't care what people say about me on

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Speaker 2: Twitter or install or Facebook or wherever. Go right ahead,

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Speaker 2: and you can keep on telling me what the witness

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Speaker 2: did want wrong and what the state did wrong. And

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Speaker 2: you're right about that. That said, what is the truth?

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Speaker 2: And I can't get away from the fact that different witnesses,

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Speaker 2: separated in time and space, claim that she Karen Reid

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Speaker 2: said I did it or questioned did I do it?

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Speaker 2: That concerns me. That makes me think she did it. However,

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Speaker 2: I don't know in light of the credibility issues, that

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Speaker 2: there's going to be a guilty verdict. I'm just telling

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Speaker 2: you the way I see it, and I'm sure I'll

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Speaker 2: be ripped apart online, you know, have it?

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Speaker 1: Just tell people something. So I mean, obviously we are

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Speaker 1: friends and I love and adore you. There was a

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Speaker 1: young female reporter that had some crap to say about you,

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Speaker 1: and I remember I was fixing to go in. I

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Speaker 1: was going to go public. I was going to be nasty.

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Speaker 1: I was going to let her know about her and

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Speaker 1: her mama and everybody she's ever met. And you said,

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Speaker 1: I don't need you to fight a battle for me.

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Speaker 1: It's not significant. Don't do it. Don't worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Move on, go enjoy your day. But part of me,

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Speaker 1: because I am your friend, felt like, yeah, that sounds good, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: But this girl needs to be told that. The reality

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Speaker 1: is you wouldn't have a job covering true crime if

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Speaker 1: it weren't for Nancy Grace. So watch your mouth, you know.

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Speaker 1: But you were so clear about the importance of I'm

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Speaker 1: covering a case. I'm going to keep the facts out there.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to let people know the truth as it

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Speaker 1: comes out in a logical, succinct manner, and we don't

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Speaker 1: need to be out there dull cussin people. So I

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Speaker 1: will say I do appreciate your advice because I didn't

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Speaker 1: go after that girl.

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Speaker 2: Can I tell you something. I don't even remember her

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Speaker 2: or it or the situation. It doesn't even matter to me.

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Speaker 2: Nothing matters to me except a true verdict. And if

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Speaker 2: people want to get mad because I hear all these

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Speaker 2: near confessions and confessions and I believe them, okay, get mad.

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Speaker 2: But again, I don't know that there's going to be

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Speaker 2: a conviction because of the state screw ups. It's just that,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's the truth. Do I like saying that

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Speaker 2: about state's witnesses? No, or cops. No, but it's the truth.

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Speaker 2: They screwed up badly, and it's not so much a mistake.

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Speaker 2: It's not so much of the made mistake. They didn't

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Speaker 2: give a flying fig. They didn't care enough about John

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Speaker 2: O'Keefe to drag their bones out to the scene and

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Speaker 2: do what they're supposed to do. If this case fails

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Speaker 2: against Karen Reid, it's their fault. And I learned something else.

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Speaker 2: I learned something else. When you are a prosecutor or

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Speaker 2: a cop, you have to be beyond reproach. You have

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Speaker 2: to live your life in a way that people can't

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Speaker 2: come back on you and say you're a scum bucket.

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Speaker 2: You did this, you did that, because that's what happens.

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Speaker 2: This was happening to these cops in this case. They

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Speaker 2: have conducted the investigation in a way that it has

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Speaker 2: destroyed the case.

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Speaker 1: Agreed one hundred percent. And that's the other thing with

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Speaker 1: young rookies listening to this episode. You think you can

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Speaker 1: send a text message and nobody's going to know you're wrong.

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Speaker 1: If you think you can leave a voice mama now

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Speaker 1: or say something at a party, you're wrong. And I

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Speaker 1: will tell you sitting here right now, Nancy Grace, and

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Speaker 1: I know great unbelievable information about suspects, defendants, and victims.

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Speaker 1: You ain't never heard us tell it. It's not for entertainment.

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Speaker 1: It's not to embarrass people. It's not so we can

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Speaker 1: sound cool at a dinner party. And to me, what

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Speaker 1: Trooper Proctor did is unforgivable.

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Speaker 2: We can crucify a Proctor later, but right now we're

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Speaker 2: trying care and read for murder. You want to tell

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Speaker 2: me that if she didn't do it, you actually believe

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Speaker 2: there's a big police cover up and a cop did it.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you my problem. There is no way

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Speaker 1: I'm ever gonna believe that a man, a stranger was

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Speaker 1: found dead on a police officer's front lawn and he

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Speaker 1: didn't go outside. I don't like it. There's no way

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ever understand that lack of action.

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Speaker 2: So you believe then that the first responders, four of

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Speaker 2: seven first responders all claim they heard Karan Reid Utterer

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Speaker 2: some type of a confession, four of them. So I'm

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Speaker 2: going to disbelieve them too, that first responders they're in

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Speaker 2: on it.

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Speaker 1: It ain't tough. I don't know that I believe that

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Speaker 1: what I do believe is the inaction of the people

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Speaker 1: in that house and the lack of investigation of law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It leads you to think did they get it right?

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Speaker 1: Because there were a few people that said they didn't

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Speaker 1: hear say anything. So who's telling the truth there?

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Speaker 2: Well, as you know, it's the jury's duty to make

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Speaker 2: all witnesses speak the truth and in pen perjuryed one.

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Speaker 2: If you walked into my kitchen and I was cooking,

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Speaker 2: and I had the fan blowing over the stove, and

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Speaker 2: music was playing, and the twins were talking, and my

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Speaker 2: mother was talking, and the dog was barking, and to

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Speaker 2: ah blah blah, you think you would hear everything that

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Speaker 2: happened in that kitchen from the door. So are you

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Speaker 2: actually trying to tell me Cheryl McCom because this is Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: I don't know you're trying to tell me. There's seven

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Speaker 2: first responders and because four heard her say I hit him,

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Speaker 2: I hit him, and three didn't, you're telling me that

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Speaker 2: four that at least three people are lying. You can't

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Speaker 2: see a scenario on an emergency scene where people are

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Speaker 2: doing different things and they're all doing their jobs. They

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Speaker 2: did not hear what Karen Reid said.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you that I understood that. First, she was

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Speaker 1: saying what happened to could I have done it? I

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Speaker 1: hit him? I almost say a question mark.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm referring specifically to Flamatti, who is a fire

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Speaker 2: department it's an active fire department, acting lieutenant. He described

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Speaker 2: how it is sop that you talk to everybody that

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Speaker 2: you come in contact with, and he said that Reed said,

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Speaker 2: I hit him. I hit him, OMG, I hit him.

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Speaker 1: My problem is the injuries don't line up to a

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Speaker 1: car hitting him. So if she's out there, drunk, panicked,

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Speaker 1: frantic in her own words, she's the only one on

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Speaker 1: that scene trying to save his life, the only one

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Speaker 1: given CPR. The men in the house, who are trained

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Speaker 1: police officers did not come out of the house and

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Speaker 1: try to save their friend. I don't know how a

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Speaker 1: jury's going to get past that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they are going to get past it.

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Speaker 1: I don't either, and that's been my problem from day one.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I basically said, this is Casey Anthony and

399
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Speaker 1: Mark Furman having a baby. It's Troop or Broctor because

400
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Speaker 1: you've got Casey Anthony where we don't know how that

401
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Speaker 1: baby died I'm in the same place right now. They

402
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Speaker 1: have not told me how this officer died. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's too late. I think that jury got lost, as

404
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Speaker 2: he phrased it, when Proctor took the stand when he

405
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Speaker 2: was cross examined. I think that was the kiss of

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Speaker 2: death for this trial.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say publicly to you. Here's

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Speaker 1: what I want to say to you, and I mean

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Speaker 1: this sincerely. I was young when we first started working together.

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Speaker 1: I'm much much younger than you, so I was so young.

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Speaker 1: But never never did you put me in a situation

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Speaker 1: where integrity would be questioned. You never did anything unethical

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Speaker 1: or under the table or sideways or half ass ever,

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Speaker 1: and you demanded the same from us. And I just

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Speaker 1: appreciate that because after all those years working with you,

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Speaker 1: that's how I continued to work when you were no

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Speaker 1: longer my prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: That's why, Cheryl, when I look at cases like this,

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Speaker 2: I just can't believe the slip shod behave. And another

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Speaker 2: thing I'm telling you about these various first responders that

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Speaker 2: heard or say that, well, there's a problem with it

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Speaker 2: because I don't know if you remember officer sir Raff.

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Speaker 2: He did not put in his police report that read

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Speaker 2: made that comment. He only said that months later. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that would be the first thing I'd put in the

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Speaker 2: police report.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, if it happened.

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Speaker 2: Karen reed State's quote, I hit him.

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Speaker 1: And when you used to teach report writing at the academy,

430
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: and when I still teach it, I say, if it

431
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: ain't wrote down, it didn't happen.

432
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: And so it's just one thing after the next, after

433
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 2: the next. So we have to rely on this stays

434
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: witnesses credibility, and they have lost that credibility because a

435
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: proctor and others. I can't get away from her saying

436
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: did I do it? Did I do it? Is that

437
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: my fault? I hit him? I hit him, I am.

438
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: I can't get away from that because so many witnesses

439
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: are saying that's what happened. But you've got me on

440
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 2: the Google, you got me, and I can't reconcile that.

441
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: How is the state trying to explain that a way?

442
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: They're going to say that somehow the time was wrong

443
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: on her phone, just like the other two people. Oh

444
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: those are all butt dials. Oh there's a ring camera,

445
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: but he didn't turn in that video. I mean there's

446
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: problem after problem after problem. I mean snowblowers and red

447
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: solo cups and stopping her all bags. I mean, the

448
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: whole thing just sounds like a joke.

449
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: What do you think about Jennifer McCabe, She is the

450
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: one that made the Google search.

451
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: I don't think she come off very well at all.

452
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: I don't know how you're going to ever explained to

453
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: me why in the world you would ever look that up,

454
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: especially after a friend of yours is found frozen in

455
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: the snow.

456
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 2: I have looked it up.

457
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: Well, you're you know it's different up. I looked it.

458
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: Up when the three chiefs Fans died in the backyard

459
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: in the bad weather. But I remember after I after

460
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: I wrote my first book, Objection, and in one chapter

461
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 2: that I think I called blood money about people, you know,

462
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: selling autopsy reports in crime scene photo. It's just horrible,

463
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: horrible people that will just do anything for money. I

464
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: was looking up researching cases where that had been done

465
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: and much worse. And I got to tell you, it

466
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: was like a little two or three hundred dollars laptop

467
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: that I bought and I only used it to research

468
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: and write books. After I wrote that book, I was

469
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 2: so disgusted, I got rid of the laptop. I destroyed

470
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: the laptop. It had so many horrible memories attached to

471
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: it and the cases that I would research and write about.

472
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: I didn't think I could type another good thing ever

473
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: on that laptop. I got completely destroyed it. I'm thinking

474
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: about people's laptops and why she would have made that search,

475
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: and how the stake could rehabilitate that.

476
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: Well, here's what's critical to me. You had a legitimate

477
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: investigative reason to look up why how long it would

478
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: take somebody to freeze? She didn't.

479
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: Of course, David saw it and thought it was about him.

480
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: Shut up, David, he toes. And when I wrote that part,

481
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: I can't remember what book it was. I was trying

482
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: to take the children to go to gate Land, and

483
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: you know where this is going. And we did Gator.

484
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: We went to quote Old Florida, and we went to Wikiwaschi.

485
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: We went to swim with a man and see, we

486
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: went to gator Land. And I was writing so funny.

487
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: I was writing a sequence in a book where a

488
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: guy is killed at I think I said, Gator World,

489
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: whatever the opposite of Gator the real place is. And

490
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: to this day I say, hey, David, go buy some

491
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: hot dogs. That's all I have to say, because the

492
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: joke is I'm gonna stuff in his pockets, push it

493
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 2: over off the dog in gater Land and data World

494
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. Anyway, let me just remind you.

495
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: Jennifer McCabe, who was a friend of the couples, Okay,

496
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: testified after John's body was found. Reid screamed, I hit him,

497
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: I hit him, I hit him. Karen Reid frantically asked

498
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: McCabe to do a Google search on how long it

499
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: takes someone to die of hypothermia.

500
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: If she, in fact googled it at two forty five

501
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: before his body was found, that's going to be damn it.

502
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: Second of all, let's talk about what she didn't google.

503
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: It was at two twenty seven. Get your fact straight.

504
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: She didn't google did a snowplow hit somebody? What would

505
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: it look like? She didn't google what the dog bites

506
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: looked like. She didn't google what do you do if

507
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: the police officers murdered in your front freaking yard. So

508
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: there's several things she didn't do. So she only googled

509
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: one thing. I find that kind of bogus. And why

510
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: would you even google it if somebody told you to.

511
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: That's bizarre. I don't buy any of that.

512
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: I would google it. If you count to me and say, hey,

513
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: how long does it take for somebody to freeze dead

514
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: and the cold, I'll google it. I wouldn't think twice about.

515
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: It, Nancy Grace. If me and you are standing in

516
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: you the you.

517
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: And I, let's practice it. If you and I were standing.

518
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: If you and I were standing on the front yard

519
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: and Walt is dead, frozen in the snow, there ain't

520
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: no way you're googling that. That shouldn't even cross either

521
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: one of our minds. That's what I'm telling you. Doesn't

522
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: matter how long it took him to freeze. It is

523
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: unproven every step of the way that he was murdered

524
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: by Karen Reid so far, unless the prosecution does a

525
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: complete three point sixty I said that to you yesterday.

526
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: You got a lead detective that didn't go to the scene,

527
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: only interviewed three people, and those three people would have

528
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: had the reason to cover up if they had, in

529
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: fact beat him in that house and thrown him in

530
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: the snow. That's a fact.

531
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: You don't think they would take his body elsewhere. You know,

532
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: you think that beat him up and throw them basically

533
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: in the front yard and go, what sid that? That

534
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't ring true to me. I mean, put yourself

535
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: in the mind of a killer. If you're going to

536
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: kill somebody, you're gonna throw them in your own front yard.

537
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: Well, you don't want your car called on ring camera

538
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: leaving for no reason to forty two in the morning, whatever.

539
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: It was, as if you wouldn't be caught going out

540
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: the door with a dead body.

541
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's the deal. Where's the ring video? He

542
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: didn't turn it in. That's what I'm saying. That's a

543
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: bad look, Nancy. If you get in your car and

544
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 1: drive through your neighborhood, your car is going to get

545
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: picked up on ring video that you can't do nothing

546
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: about your own home ring video. You can delete it,

547
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: the lead investigator can choose not to turn it in.

548
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: So you're really going with the theory that cops kill

549
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: their friend and let him die out in the cold.

550
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: Nancy, I have given you nine reasons that there's a

551
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: cop cover up, and all you have is Karen Reid

552
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: said she hitting.

553
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: I have multiple witnesses claiming that she said she did it.

554
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: I have her bus to tell light, and I have

555
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: his DNA and hair on the back of her car.

556
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: Any defense attorney can explain those last two things. And

557
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: again the problem with the tail light. There's some video

558
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,239
Speaker 1: that shows the tail lights intact. The only reason in that,

559
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: sally Port. Why would you send an inverted video? Why

560
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: would you show you're on the wrong side of the car.

561
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: Every single thing that the state has put up so far,

562
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 1: to me, hurts them. Everything. The video time is wrong,

563
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: the time on the warrant wrong, when they told the car.

564
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: We don't know proger, do know chain of custody. He's

565
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: the one that supposedly didn't go to the crime scene

566
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: that day, but he found the taill light the next day. Okay,

567
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: Mark Furman, I don't think they're going to buy it.

568
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: I just don't. They have not shown me that she

569
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: killed him by her vehic. That's all I can tell you.

570
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: I just can't get away from her statements. I have

571
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: to believe that all those people, all of them, are

572
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: lying about what she said. I could accept one or two,

573
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: maybe even three lying, but all the people, and all

574
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: of them are not law enforcement. I'd have to believe

575
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 2: Jennifer McCabe is lying, I'd have to believe O'Keefe's niece

576
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: is lying. I'd have to believe everybody's lying except Karen Reed.

577
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: I had a problem with that.

578
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: Have you heard that John O'Keefe might have turned in

579
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: some people in his department? Have you heard that rumor?

580
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: Yep, I've heard it for right now. That's all it is,

581
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: is a rumor. I heard that Oj Simpson's son was

582
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: the killer. I heard that too. Did that make it true? No?

583
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of things. A lot of things

584
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: come our way, Cheryl, but that doesn't mean they're all true.

585
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: Well, y'all, we gonna have to hang on and as

586
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray says, and we wait.

587
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: For justice too unfault. Yep, that's all we can do now.

588
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: Amen, all right, Well, I love you, I appreciate you. Bye, buddy, Bye, honey.

589
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum. And this is the crime round Up

590
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: with zones having m