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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm Auctra Thrati from Charmel Chike, Egypt.

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Speaker 1: We are at crunch time in the negotiation. We fought high,

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Speaker 1: We've had a series of very challenging conversations and we

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Speaker 1: moved the world on funding for loss and damage. We

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Speaker 1: have finally responded to the call of hundreds of millions

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Speaker 1: of people across the world. However, a clear commitment to

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Speaker 1: phase out all fossil fuels not in this text, and

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Speaker 1: the energy text weakened in the final minutes it developed.

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Speaker 1: Countries have implicitly stated that the lives of our peoples

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Speaker 1: are negotiable. They are not. The last few days of

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Speaker 1: COP have been chaos. Drafts who were floated back and forth,

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Speaker 1: adding to DeLay's Protesters camped outside negotiation halls demanding progress,

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Speaker 1: and the United Nations Secretary General Antonio Gutteris made a

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Speaker 1: last minute intervention to try and bring nations together on

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Speaker 1: an agreement, and there was an agreement reached at five

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Speaker 1: am on Sunday, November twentieth. COP twenty seven was supposed

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Speaker 1: to be the implementation coup, the African coup, and for

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Speaker 1: our final episode of Zero from Egypt, we'll be hearing

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Speaker 1: from two people working to finance the clean energy transition

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Speaker 1: in Africa, Rebecca Shirley, Director of Research, Data and Innovation

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Speaker 1: at the World Resources Institute, and mak Dardop, director of

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Speaker 1: the World Bank's International Finance Corporation and the former Minister

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Speaker 1: of Finance and Economy of Senegal. But first I'm joined

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Speaker 1: by my colleague Schavon Wagner, Green's editor based in London,

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Speaker 1: to talk about the news, and Will Kennedy, Senior Executive

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Speaker 1: editor for Energy and Commodities, on his reflections and what

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Speaker 1: happens next. Sure one, welcome to the show. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Now we've been up for twenty seven hours straight, so

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Speaker 1: a little bit tired, but we have a deal. What

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Speaker 1: were the last twenty seven hours like? Well, I think

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Speaker 1: we were all surprised as the way the deal came out,

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Speaker 1: the fact that it was agreed so quickly at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: I think we all had a bit of whiplash with that,

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Speaker 1: and it probably took us a little time to process

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Speaker 1: that actually this had happened, you know. I mean, considering

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Speaker 1: that the lead up to this cop like was said

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Speaker 1: to be the contentious issue of loss and damage, and

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Speaker 1: the controversial issue of loss and damage, and then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden it's unanimously voted in, and it just

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Speaker 1: kind of made you really wonder what all those big

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Speaker 1: questions were about, you know. And the big holdup was

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Speaker 1: even though lost in Damage fund was agreed upon by

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Speaker 1: the countries and without any intervention from any country, there

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Speaker 1: was expected to be a walkout from the European Union

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Speaker 1: because there wasn't enough to try and reduce emissions so

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Speaker 1: that we could keep on track for one point five

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Speaker 1: degrees celsius warming. Why did we not see a walkout?

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because we were talking about that afterwards, and

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Speaker 1: I think we were all kind of under the impression that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it could have made the European Union look

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Speaker 1: a little bit like a bully, you know, like kind

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Speaker 1: of holding the negotiations hostage, you know, and especially something

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Speaker 1: like loss in damage with everything that's happened in Pakistan

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Speaker 1: this year, to kind of say that you're going to

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Speaker 1: withhold funds, you know, and when you look at these

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Speaker 1: sort of sort of humanitarian situations, I yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it just from a PR perspective, it would have been terrible. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: and what we heard was that there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of bushback from fossil field producers. Anelina Berbach, was the

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Speaker 1: Foreign Minister of Germany, said that fossil field producers resisted

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Speaker 1: language around reducing emissions which did not make it into

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Speaker 1: the final text, such as speaking emissions by twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five or phasing out all fossil fuels, and so there

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Speaker 1: was a sense of defeat in a way. Now, two

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Speaker 1: weeks of governing this actually more than that. What was

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Speaker 1: your experience, like, well, I mean it's interesting because everyone

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Speaker 1: kind of pays attention towards the end, because that's the

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Speaker 1: kind of where the climax and where all the drama

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Speaker 1: builds up to. But weirdly, after being here for two weeks,

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Speaker 1: the end was the least interesting bit for me. I

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Speaker 1: found everything else around this conference to be the more

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Speaker 1: interesting thing. The fact, you know, you have just representatives

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Speaker 1: from all over the world under one roof just things

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Speaker 1: like China and the US kind of reinstituting their diplomatic relations,

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Speaker 1: the JETP deals that we saw being made with so

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Speaker 1: South Africa having their co transition deal being signed off on,

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Speaker 1: massive announcement with Indonesia twenty billion dollar deal to transition

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Speaker 1: the country off of coal, and another one set to

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Speaker 1: come in Vietnam. The other kind of exciting thing leading

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Speaker 1: up to all this really was was Lula, which was

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Speaker 1: quite interesting. You know that the kind of rock star

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Speaker 1: treatment he got. You know, I joked with one of

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Speaker 1: my colleagues because she was talking about, you know, all

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Speaker 1: the people that were kind of you know, dancing and

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Speaker 1: chanting when he came in, and I said, well, I

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Speaker 1: don't think you know, President Biden got anyone dancing in

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Speaker 1: their seat, that did any when when when he arrived.

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Speaker 1: Things that might be seen as the side show I

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Speaker 1: actually found much more interesting than the actual deal that

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Speaker 1: was that was being done. Thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you well, welcome to the show. Thanks that shut

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Speaker 1: great to be with you. Now, this is your first

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Speaker 1: cop You run the Energy team here at Bloomberg News,

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Speaker 1: one of the largest teams that we have. You've spend

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Speaker 1: the entire two weeks here. What's your experience being like.

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Speaker 1: It's a completely unique event, unlike anything that I've ever

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Speaker 1: covered before in my career. I've covered OPEC meetings and

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Speaker 1: big conferences, but just the range of people is completely

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Speaker 1: different to anything else. You've got politicians, of course, you've

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Speaker 1: got activists, you've got campaigners, academics, you've got young people,

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Speaker 1: and you've got people from all over the world. Truly,

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Speaker 1: it feels like a global event, unlike any other I've attended.

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Speaker 1: And of course this is about climate change and trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to keep temperatures under control, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of conversation is around energy, and not just

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Speaker 1: within the negotiations, but even outside your energies to the

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Speaker 1: fore for a couple of reasons. I think. Obviously, the

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Speaker 1: one of the big differences between this COP and Glasgow

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Speaker 1: is that we've had a big global energy crisis since

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Speaker 1: so people are talking a lot about how to fit

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Speaker 1: the climate agenda into the short term energy gender. Does

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Speaker 1: that mean you go slower on abating fossil fuels? Does

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Speaker 1: that mean you go quicker? And it's become almost like

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Speaker 1: a Davos for energy people. And one thing that we've

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Speaker 1: started to see, perhaps controversially, is more energy industry people

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Speaker 1: at this COP. Obviously, the Saudi Arabia is well represented.

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Speaker 1: They had this big Saudi Green initiative. The UAE will

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Speaker 1: be hosting the next COP and they're very well represented.

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Speaker 1: We've had oil executives here, including the head of Total

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Speaker 1: the head of BP. There are a lot of renewable companies,

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Speaker 1: and you're starting to get the infession that people come

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Speaker 1: here to meet to do deals, to talk energy policy,

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Speaker 1: to interact with policymakers, and I think to some longtime

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Speaker 1: COP participants that's rather against the spirit, but I think

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Speaker 1: it does also show how central climate climate policy is

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Speaker 1: becoming to business finance investing. And now we are going

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Speaker 1: to be heading next year to another Middle Eastern country,

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Speaker 1: this time the UE. We'll move from being an Africa

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Speaker 1: COP to an Asia COP, even though it's only a

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Speaker 1: few hundred miles away. What are your expectations Having been

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Speaker 1: to this COP, I feel sure that it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a very big event for several reasons. It's a

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Speaker 1: big diplomatic moment for the UAE, a very ambitious country,

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Speaker 1: a country that wants to assert itself in the world,

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Speaker 1: and this is a chance for it to have a

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Speaker 1: diplomatic showpiece. Now, obviously they're a controversial decision to host

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Speaker 1: it in the UAE because they are one of the

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Speaker 1: world's largest style producers. They've produced about four million pounds

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Speaker 1: of oil every day. That is the source of their wealth.

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Speaker 1: Now they will argue with some justification that they're also

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Speaker 1: investing a lot in renewable energy, which is true, but

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Speaker 1: they're great advocates to this idea that the world needs

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Speaker 1: all forms of energy, so they come with a message

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Speaker 1: which is controversial to some people in a COP community.

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Speaker 1: But I also think they will organize a big event,

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Speaker 1: a very well organized event, event that they'll be to

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Speaker 1: make successful. Dubai is a global hub, so it will

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Speaker 1: be easy for people to get there, to find places

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Speaker 1: to stay, so I think it will be big of

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Speaker 1: an Egypt and I suspect we will see a lot more,

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Speaker 1: even more the stuff I was talking about earlier, about

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Speaker 1: of executives being here, of it being a real meeting

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Speaker 1: of the energy climate world across business and finance as

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Speaker 1: well as policy people. So it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: big one. Now, this energy climate world, they've been separate

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Speaker 1: for some time, even though physically it makes no sense.

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Speaker 1: You cannot tackle climate without dealing with emissions that are

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Speaker 1: generated from energy, and you cannot meet the world's goals

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Speaker 1: if you don't have all the energy you need. Our

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Speaker 1: COP meeting is the place where you're seeing this overlap

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Speaker 1: really come together so that we can find a way forward.

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Speaker 1: I hope that that's true. I think there are reasons

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Speaker 1: to think perhaps clearly fossil fuel actors who are moving

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Speaker 1: into the renewable space, who are engaging with climate to

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Speaker 1: a greater or lesser extent. We can see that when

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Speaker 1: we look at some of the green initiatives proposed by

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Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia and other Middle East countries. We can hold

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Speaker 1: them to account, of course, but they see them as

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Speaker 1: meaningful policy agendas. We can see that when we look

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Speaker 1: at some of the global oil companies and the investments

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Speaker 1: that they're making in renewable energy, and we can see

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Speaker 1: that in the way that the investment community is thinking

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Speaker 1: about what projects it finance and importantly what projects it

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Speaker 1: doesn't finance. There are going to be arguments about what

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Speaker 1: people's true intentions are. There are always going to be

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Speaker 1: arguments about whether fossil fuel companies can have any role

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Speaker 1: to play, whether fossil fuel countries should have any role

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Speaker 1: to play, and those arguments are entirely legitimate. But it

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Speaker 1: does seem to me that there is a coop, a

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Speaker 1: sort of nexus for all those different interests forming with that. Lasts,

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Speaker 1: I think will depend on how much momentum the process maintains.

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Speaker 1: I think it will depend on how serious some countries

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Speaker 1: stay about the climate policy agenda. But right now you

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Speaker 1: can sort of see this meshing into one big energy

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Speaker 1: climate nexus. Thanks Will. We'll be back with another two

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Speaker 1: week grind next year. See you in Dubai Action. The

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Speaker 1: African continent has the fastest growing population in the world

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Speaker 1: and needs resources to fund both its basic energy needs

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Speaker 1: and a transition to clean energy, and yet it attracts

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Speaker 1: just a tiny fraction of the funding, less than one

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Speaker 1: percent of renewable spending globally, according to Bloomberg and ef

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Speaker 1: went to Africa, even as it represents seven percent of

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Speaker 1: the global economy. After the break, we hear from two

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Speaker 1: people working to change that. Joining me now is Rebecca Surely,

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Speaker 1: the director of Research, Data and Innovation at the World

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Speaker 1: Resources Institute, who talks about the bottlenecks slowing a green

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Speaker 1: energy transition across Africa. Rebecca, welcome to the show. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Really appreciated now. A

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Speaker 1: lot of what's happening at the CUP meeting this time,

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Speaker 1: but usually is the case with CUP meetings, is talking

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Speaker 1: about money and how rich countries will pay for the transition.

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Speaker 1: But also maybe climate impacts happening in poor countries. That

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Speaker 1: seems like a simple, straightforward thing if you look at

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Speaker 1: the moral responsibility, the historical burden of emissions, all of

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Speaker 1: that should just happen, and yet it doesn't, and when

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Speaker 1: it does, it happens in complicated ways. So maybe let's

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Speaker 1: just start there. Why is it that rich countries find

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Speaker 1: it so hard to put forward small amounts of money

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Speaker 1: than they really should be. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: that question. You've gotten right to the heart of the issue.

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Speaker 1: For the benefit of the audience, let me paint a

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Speaker 1: picture of what the financing landscape looks like today, because,

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Speaker 1: as you rightfully pointed out, to finance a transition to

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Speaker 1: low carbon systems and landscapes globally, we are trying to

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Speaker 1: finance for mitigation, We're trying to finance for adaptation, for

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Speaker 1: loss and damage, for low carbon technologies, for buildings. There's

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Speaker 1: so much that really needs to be financed. So the

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Speaker 1: best available information, the best available estimates from our research

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Speaker 1: partners at CPI put the price target something like four

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Speaker 1: to five trillion per annum out to twenty forty. Today

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Speaker 1: we're at somewhere around six hundred billion, So we're really

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Speaker 1: falling short of the financial package. The thing that I'll

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Speaker 1: say on top of that is we're still financing, We're

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Speaker 1: still putting pumping something around nine hundred billion into fossil

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Speaker 1: fuels at the same time. So as a globe, we

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Speaker 1: are still spending more today on fossil fuels than we

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Speaker 1: are on climate. That's number one. Number two. When you

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Speaker 1: break down that six hundred billion and think about where

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Speaker 1: it's flowing to, two things. One, very little of it

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Speaker 1: is flowing to the global South, and two, oftentimes the

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Speaker 1: financial flows are staying within the country of a region.

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Speaker 1: So together that means that we're actually seeing very little

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Speaker 1: of that trickling down to the countries that are most vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: most in need of urgent funds for adaptation. If we

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Speaker 1: bring it even closer to home to Africa, of that

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Speaker 1: six hundred billion, we're receiving about nineteen billion nineteen out

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Speaker 1: of the six hundred and as of course, as everyone

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Speaker 1: loves to say, this is one of the regions that

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Speaker 1: is most vulnerable globally. Of that nineteen billion, to trickle

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Speaker 1: down even further, or to look a little bit even further,

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Speaker 1: only about two billion of that is private, right so

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Speaker 1: seventeen billion is public sector funds coming to continent, very

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Speaker 1: little private sector investment, and so this becomes a really

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Speaker 1: big challenge, and it becomes a big challenge from the

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Speaker 1: negotiation space as well. So why is it so hard

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Speaker 1: to put forward money? Well, let me explain why that

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Speaker 1: is the case from a point of view of energy,

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Speaker 1: because the energy transitions in Africa have become such a

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Speaker 1: very central theme to the global climate discussion, and I

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Speaker 1: think that that's going to transfer to a lot of

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Speaker 1: other spaces like adaptation and so on. The African continent

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Speaker 1: is perhaps the continent that that's most in need of

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Speaker 1: financing for energy transitions. Why because, of course, as we

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Speaker 1: all know, we're standing at a very very low base

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Speaker 1: for energy access. In fact, energy access is almost becoming

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Speaker 1: an exclusively African issue. We are nine out of ten

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Speaker 1: persons that still on Earth today don't have basic electricity

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Speaker 1: and clean cooking services. We have a price tag. The

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Speaker 1: SEFRAL has put a price tag on on this something

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Speaker 1: about one hundred and twenty billion per year out of

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Speaker 1: twenty fourty needed just on energy access. But when you

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Speaker 1: unpack what the opportunities are, it's not for lack of

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Speaker 1: resources on the continent. The solar is amazing, the wind

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Speaker 1: is amazing, hydro amazing, geothermal is amazing. We've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of resources. So you ask yourself, well, if you've

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Speaker 1: got this big demand, six hundred million still without access,

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Speaker 1: if you've got all these amazing resources, why aren't investors

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Speaker 1: toppling over themselves to come and invest here. You've got

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Speaker 1: demand and you've got amazing resources. And as we all know,

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Speaker 1: renewables are at the levelized cost cheaper than fosil fuels today. Well,

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Speaker 1: the answer to that question is that it's not as

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Speaker 1: simple as the upfront cost of technology. You have to

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Speaker 1: think about the layers of the onion because on top

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Speaker 1: of the cost of your solar panels, your balance of

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Speaker 1: system for setting up a solar system, there is the

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Speaker 1: cost of the capital itself. Now, what that means is

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Speaker 1: the cost that you have to take on as a

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Speaker 1: developer to access the finance to then go and deploy

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Speaker 1: your systems. And on the continent, we have very high

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Speaker 1: cost of capital. They range up to as much as

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Speaker 1: forty thirty eight to forty percent in some of our

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Speaker 1: Central African countries. So imagine if you're trying to take

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Speaker 1: out a loan for a home and your interest rate

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Speaker 1: is thirty percent? Can you afford that home? No, you

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Speaker 1: can't afford that home. And the challenge is that for

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Speaker 1: a lot of our climate solutions, including renewables, they are

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Speaker 1: highly sensitive to this cost of capital because they need

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Speaker 1: upfront costs, and so that's one of the big challenges.

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Speaker 1: Finance doesn't flow naturally to the continent because of risk perceptions,

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Speaker 1: because of foreign exchange issues. Right, you take out a

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Speaker 1: loan in US dollars, but you're paying it back in

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Speaker 1: your local currency, which is oftentimes depreciating and then depreciating,

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Speaker 1: as we're seeing now with the Ukraine crisis. And then

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Speaker 1: on top of that, we have the challenge of not

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Speaker 1: having grid systems that are really ready for very massive

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Speaker 1: rollout of renewables, because you need to have a really resilient,

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Speaker 1: a really sturdy transmission distribution system to absorb that level

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Speaker 1: of renewable capacity. And then thirdly, I would say part

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Speaker 1: of the challenge is that once you've built systems, we

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Speaker 1: don't have ready off takers for those systems industry, commerce, enterprise,

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Speaker 1: and so the payback periods can be very very long,

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Speaker 1: and for investors, you might as well put that money

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Speaker 1: somewhere else where, you're going to get a faster rate

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Speaker 1: of return, maybe seven years or less. We're here as

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Speaker 1: we might be talking about more. So, I know that

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Speaker 1: was a long winded answer questions the chicken and the

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Speaker 1: neck problem. Right, you are saying there is demand because

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Speaker 1: clearly people don't have electricity, yes, but then you're also

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Speaker 1: saying they're not enough for off takers. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: That you've hit the nail right on the head. And

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Speaker 1: it seems like a very weird paradox, right that there

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Speaker 1: are people that want power, communities that want power, but

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Speaker 1: developer saying I don't have anyone to take the power away.

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Speaker 1: We can't assume that once you build a system that

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Speaker 1: naturally the next day the the ability to absorb that

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Speaker 1: power will exist, because what you would need is at

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Speaker 1: the same time as we're developing generation and expanding generation,

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Speaker 1: we have to be thinking about the commercial, industrial and

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Speaker 1: enterprise space. And we don't have again, for it's the

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Speaker 1: same chicken and egg because we don't have very reliable power.

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Speaker 1: We don't have very big commercial industrial sectors. Because we

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Speaker 1: don't have very many commercial industrial customers, it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: make the investments on the power grid. So we're really

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Speaker 1: in this sort of like chicken and egg, and what

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Speaker 1: do we need to do to get ourselves out of

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Speaker 1: that and then pivot ourselves into a virtuous cycle where

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Speaker 1: we have off takers that then make the economics of

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Speaker 1: energy delivery more efficient, which then means that we have

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Speaker 1: more offtakers. And to pivot into that virtuous cycle, we

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Speaker 1: really need far more investment in the commercial and industrial

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Speaker 1: space across the continent. So we're talking about light manufacturing,

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Speaker 1: heavier manufacturing, we're talking about textiles, We're talking about small

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Speaker 1: and medium sized enterprises and agriculture. So it's ironic that

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Speaker 1: the answer to the energy access and the energy finance

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Speaker 1: question lies in supporting economy and we have very little

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Speaker 1: finance flowing into that space for the reasons that we

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Speaker 1: talked about earlier. And are there countries, given how diverse

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Speaker 1: Africa is as a continent, where things are going in

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Speaker 1: the right direction, Yes, yes. I think what we're seeing

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Speaker 1: at this COUP, which is different from last year's Cup,

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Speaker 1: is that African countries are starting to realize we have

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Speaker 1: to come to the table with an investment package that

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Speaker 1: investors can say I see the whole picture. It's not

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Speaker 1: just the generation side. You've also put industry, put put

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Speaker 1: commerce into this, so full packages are starting to come

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Speaker 1: to the table. We have transition packages now from South Africa,

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Speaker 1: of course, as we're all familiar to the South African

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Speaker 1: just energy transitions pledge. Next was Nigeria, who's doing a

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Speaker 1: great job at this cup securing an investment in its

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Speaker 1: energy transition plan. We have Senegal, we have Ghana, we

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Speaker 1: have Kenya, we have a lot of countries. Realizing that

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Speaker 1: we need to put together these almost whole of economy

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Speaker 1: packages for investors to react to. And when we do

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Speaker 1: that an aggregate, it makes the exercise much easier, so

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Speaker 1: that we're actually not just talking about finance, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about partnership, partnership and building out economy in in African countries. Wonderful,

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Speaker 1: thank you for coming on the show, My pleasure. We

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Speaker 1: are joined next by Mark tur Diop who is the

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Speaker 1: director of the International Finance Corporation, which is part of

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Speaker 1: the World Bank Group and provides over thirty billion dollars

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Speaker 1: each year in loans to the private sector in developing countries.

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Speaker 1: To bring more climate focused finance into the continent. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show. Mark, Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Now tell us what the IFC does. IFC is a

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Speaker 1: premier institution when it comes to financing private sector in

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Speaker 1: developing countries. Thirty two point eight billions, that's what we

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Speaker 1: learned it last year. One third of it is going

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Speaker 1: to climate change and one sort of it is going

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Speaker 1: to Africa. So that basically in a nurture what IFC is.

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Speaker 1: But what is it that as a development financial institution

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Speaker 1: it actually does, like what is a loan relative to

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Speaker 1: a private industry doing Maybe give me an example through

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Speaker 1: a project. So what we are doing is that we

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Speaker 1: in the past people will think that the public sector

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Speaker 1: was the only solution to developmental issues, and the world

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Speaker 1: came clearly realizations that in fact, most of the solution

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Speaker 1: will be coming from the private sector. But often the

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Speaker 1: private sector doesn't have the tools or knowledge the intelligence

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Speaker 1: to know what is happening in the most remote place

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Speaker 1: in the world. So they need to have a people

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Speaker 1: who have them do these investments. So what we're doing

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Speaker 1: is that to be bringing our resources because we are

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Speaker 1: represented in a lot of country, we have a lot

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Speaker 1: of knowledge of what is happening the count We understand

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Speaker 1: the risk and we are mobilizing resource. For each dollars

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Speaker 1: that we put, we mobilize one dollar for the capital markets.

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Speaker 1: An example will be if it's a billion dollars solar

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Speaker 1: power plant being built in Senegal and IFC is involved

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Speaker 1: in that, then IFC will give five hundred million as

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Speaker 1: a as a loan and private capital will bring in

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Speaker 1: five hundred million is that roughly exactly, but will come

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Speaker 1: here to Egypt where we are. Ben Park was one

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Speaker 1: of the leading investment in these countries was ben Ban

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Speaker 1: Park is one of the world's largest solar parks, located

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Speaker 1: in Auswan in southern Egypt, with a capacity of generating

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Speaker 1: one point eight gig awards of electricity, enough to power

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Speaker 1: more than a million Egyptian homes. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't know that, but we were as the one who

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Speaker 1: launch it. We are tomorrow we're going to our board

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Speaker 1: before those one billion dollar investment is renewable for Egypt

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Speaker 1: and the same amount for Jordan. So that's is a

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Speaker 1: today now example of what we are doing when it

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Speaker 1: comes to us a solar industry. We launch a few

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Speaker 1: years ago what we called Scaling Up Solar, which was

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Speaker 1: an initiative because when developers were coming to countries in Africa,

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Speaker 1: it takes a long time to develop a project, is costly.

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Speaker 1: They don't know that. So we have a kind of

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Speaker 1: standardized contract, standardized template that was presented to the investors

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Speaker 1: and that allows them to narrow the time needed to

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Speaker 1: prepare a project and reduce their cost. So where you

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Speaker 1: are doing two things. We're bringing my name, but also

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Speaker 1: we help the captain market in general to better appreciate

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Speaker 1: the risk in countries that are not familiar with And

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Speaker 1: so we talked about solar. What kind of other projects

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Speaker 1: climate related do you rein the finance The two projects

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Speaker 1: that we are taking to the board tomorrow one is

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Speaker 1: solar that the one is wink. So we are doing

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Speaker 1: a lot of women. We are planning also to do

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Speaker 1: more of a green ehydrogen not only for the energy side,

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Speaker 1: but also for something which is very important today, which

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Speaker 1: is fertilizers. So we know that a big element of

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Speaker 1: the food crisis has been the lack of availability to fertilizer.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes that people don't talk about something else is

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Speaker 1: that some of these fertilizer can be a problem in

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Speaker 1: terms of climate change and sustainability right and just for context,

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Speaker 1: ammonium most of the time is made from combining nitrogen,

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Speaker 1: which is plentiful in the atmosphere with hydrogen, but that

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Speaker 1: hydrogen right now comes from natural gas, and when natural

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Speaker 1: gas prices are high, just as it is the case

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Speaker 1: right now, that makes fertilizer very expensive and many fertilizer companies,

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Speaker 1: especially in Europe have shut down because they couldn't buy

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Speaker 1: natural gas at the price. And so allowing for use

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Speaker 1: of green hydrogen, which can be made just from renewables

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Speaker 1: and water, allows you to make ammonium cheaper prices. Absolutely

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Speaker 1: active because it's are some things that I didn't go

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Speaker 1: through the process, but its portents are to remind tool

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Speaker 1: to people we were listening how it's happening. But it's

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Speaker 1: a golden opportunity for countries which were not part of

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00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: that fly channel value chain to pay an important role.

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Speaker 1: Just picture it. Senegal, Morocco, Egypt, all the country which

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Speaker 1: are adowed today with renewable an Egypt will be able

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Speaker 1: to be major player. Is a product of abonyac also

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Speaker 1: product related to it. Not only we are bringing capital,

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Speaker 1: but we are helping structurally transform the economy and create jobs,

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Speaker 1: which is something that is very important in our objectives.

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Speaker 1: Now let's talk about the Glasgow Financial Alliance for at zero,

447
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: which is a group of private companies in financial institutions,

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00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: banks and pension friends, et cetera that want to help

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00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: move money towards an AT zero goal. These are all

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00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: private institutions that you have worked with in some capacity.

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Speaker 1: What kind of questions are they asking you when they

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Speaker 1: want to figure out the best places to put their

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Speaker 1: money towards this transition? So number one is de risking,

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Speaker 1: deer risking, de risking, de risking. We have facing a

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Speaker 1: lot of hydewinds, high lation war in Ukraine, high interest

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00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: rate in a more advanced economy, strong dollar strong dollar,

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00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: so you have a currency mismatch and all these kinds

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Speaker 1: of things. So today people have an incentive to actually

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Speaker 1: move their money from emerging economies to safer assets, usually

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00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: euro or dollars the nominated So how can we reverse

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00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: that new trend is by de risking and giving the

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00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: type of instruments that you are providing in de risking

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00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: is a first loss guarantee, partial risk guarantee, currency swapped

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00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: and this type of things which are very important for investors.

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00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: That's the first thing. Second second is intelligence linked to

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Speaker 1: the understanding of what discappening in those countries. You have

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00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: people in world Street or in at the city in

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00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: London who want to invest money, but they don't have times,

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00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 1: they don't have the resources to look at those markets.

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Speaker 1: So we are providing signal which are very powerful, and

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Speaker 1: one of the signals is our own investments. So in

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Speaker 1: fact our own investment we are seeing it much more

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00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: a catalyst to being more investment from secuptain market in

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00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: these countries because our ability to assess the risk properly

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00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: our institution is a kind of guarantee of safe investment.

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Speaker 1: Actually we are a very low level of a non

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00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: performing low, very very low level. We chose that we

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00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: know what we are doing in investment. Now, the finance gap,

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00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: which is the amount of money that needs to go

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00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: towards the transition, is very clearly a developing market gap.

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Speaker 1: If you look at how much money needs to be

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Speaker 1: spent in developed countries, those numbers are just about there,

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00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: but it's really developing countries where the money needs to go.

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00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: And through the example we've talked about, you're clearly filling

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00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: a gap, but the amounts you're leaning and the amounts

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00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: you're multiplying is still quite limited. In twenty seventeen you

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00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: had twenty six billion dollars that was committed, and that's

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00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: gone up to thirty one point five billion dollars last year.

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00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: Say in twenty twenty five, how much do you expect

490
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: to have been committed in loans? Will it go up

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00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: from thirty two billion dollars to sixty billion dollars? My ambition,

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00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: will it happen? Let's work hard for it. Who do

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00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: you have to convince to convince people to put more

494
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: blunted finance? Where will it come from? Come from philanthropy,

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00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: come from countries. You're not going to get more money

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00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: being committed from governments towards if I'm asking for it

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00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: and I hope that you will happen. And who is

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00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: the bottleneck there? Which are the main countries that you

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00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: have to convince? Let's be realistic. The world is facing

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00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: difficult situations. A lot of countries also have some a

501
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: lot of of the challenges to address some of the

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00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: social needs such a population are raising. But you believe

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00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: that the link between what a population is facing in

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00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: immediately and climate change is becoming more and more obvious,

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00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: so countries I think will be while addressing the imagiate

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00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: challenge that facing their population will also make the effort

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00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: to be able to bring more blunted finance so that

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Speaker 1: you can advise. We've talked about a lot of solutions,

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00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: and one of the themes here at CUP twenty seven

510
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: has been how will money come to those solutions? So

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Speaker 1: the work you're doing is absolutely crucial. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: coming on the show. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening

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00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: to Zero and I hope you've enjoyed our episodes from

514
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: COP twenty seven and got a sense of what it's

515
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: like to attend one of the world's largest meetings discussing

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00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: one of the world's most urgent problems. If you like

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00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: the show, please rate, review and subscribe, Tell a friend

518
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: or tell an investment banker. If you've got a suggestion

519
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: for a guest or topic or something you just want

520
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: us to look into, get in touch at zero pot

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00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and

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00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: senior producer is Christine Risco. Our theme music is composed

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00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: by Wonderlely Special thanks to Kira Binjin. I'm Ucshratrati back

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Speaker 1: with the regular weekly episodes from Thursday,