1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Radio this week. On the podcast, I have a very 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: interesting and not quite as controversial as his reputation uh 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: makes out. Ryan Holliday is the author of really a 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: very fascinating book about the entire Hulk Hogan Peter Thiel 6 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: Gawker litigation called Conspiracy. He has really a fascinating, amazing background. 7 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: I wish I had another hour because I had so 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: many more questions. I'm a big fan of Robert Green. 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: He was a research assistant for him who wrote the 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: books on power laws. I didn't get a chance to 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: to talk about that, but we really delved into what's 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: going on with the media, the whole problem with digital marketing, blogging, um, 13 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: all of the sort of click happy so social media, uh, 14 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: the filter bubbles that have been created by Facebook and 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: Google and Twitter. Um. It really is an interesting question. 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: He has quite an amazing story. Drops out of school 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: very young, eventually gets a gig at American Apparel. I 18 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: think he's twenty when he becomes their head of pr 19 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: and here it is barely a decade and changed later, 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: and he's five books or six books published, some of 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: which have become extremely successful best sellers. Uh, just really 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: an unusual, interesting, fascinating history for a writer. I found 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: the conversation quite intriguing, and I think you will also, so, 24 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: with no further ado, my conversation with Ryan Holiday. I'm 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: Barry Hults. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. 26 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: My special guest today is Ryan Holiday. He is an 27 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: American author, marketer, and entrepreneur. He is the former director 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: of PR for American Apparel. He is a media strategist 29 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: and calumnist, and the former editor at large for The 30 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: New York Observer at the young age of barely thirty. 31 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: He is the author of multiple books, including Trust Me, 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: I'm Lying, The Obstacle Is The Way, Ego Is The Enemy, 33 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: Growth Hacker, Marketing, The Daily Stoic, and his most recent 34 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: book is Conspiracy, Peter, Theel Hulk, Holgan, Gawker, and The 35 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: Anatomy of Intrigue. Ryan Holliday, Welcome to Bloomberg. Thank you 36 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: for having me. So we kind of threw this together 37 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. As soon as I saw the book was published. 38 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:49,679 Speaker 1: I've been fascinated by this entire tawdry episode. The new 39 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: book is an inside look at the Gawker trial um, 40 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: which we learned was backed by Peter Thiel. This is 41 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: so different than everything else you've written. What what attracted 42 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: you to this subject matter? I have the same reaction 43 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: to the story. I mean, it feels like it's something 44 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: that should have happened in the nineteenth century. It's what 45 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: It's what Vanderbilt, a Rockefeller or Carnegie would have done 46 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: to an enemy. The idea of this billionaire having this 47 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: personal grudge for good reasons or batteriasons against the media 48 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: outlet and then plotting secretly in the shadows to to 49 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: destroy them sounds epic. In fact, it's not even the 50 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. It's Shakespeare or tark or something. The Spanish 51 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: American War, yellow journalism, all that sort of of behind 52 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: the scenes manipulation. The most fascinating thing is you had 53 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: written a couple of columns on Gawker and Field for 54 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: The Observer. After this whole thing goes down, both Nick Denton, 55 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: the founder of Glawker, and Peter Field, separately and unaware 56 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: of the other, reach out to you to tell their 57 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: side of the story. What what was that like? It 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: was surreal? I mean, there was one night at the 59 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: end of two thousand and sixteen, where I had dinner 60 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: at Peter Teel's house, and then the next night I 61 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: had uh I went to an event at at Denton's house, 62 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: and it struck me that I was probably the only 63 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: person speaking to these two mortal enemies. These two people 64 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: had spent north of twenty million dollars fighting each other, 65 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: that embarrassed each other in the press. What Nick Nick 66 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: had only recently moved back into his apartment, having had 67 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: to rent it out on Airbnb to cover the mortgage 68 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: during his bankruptcy when all his assets had been frozen. 69 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: And to bring everybody up to speed, feel wins a 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: giant case, or I should say Hulk Hogan in in 71 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: the guise of his real life persona wins a hundred 72 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: plus million dollar litigation. It's bank, it's bankrolled by Peter Field. 73 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: It ultimately bankrupts Gawker and forces Nick Denton and the 74 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: founder and soul owner, a majority owner of of Gawker 75 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: Ye into personal bankruptcy. So these aren't people just having 76 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: a Twitter battle. These are really people at each other's throats. No, 77 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: I mean, this is an epic conflict that it begins 78 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, when at at Nick's prompting, 79 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: Gawker out's Teal is gay, So back up a sex 80 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: So Gawker Properties owns Valley Wag, which was the Silicon 81 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: Valley version of a gossip. So Gawker started, it's sort 82 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: of like a a page six with no limitations, a 83 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: high hitting, hard hitting in the way that you would 84 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: need to be a celebrity to be on t M, 85 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: to be on TMZ or page six, Hawker said, anyone 86 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: doing something tawdry or provocative or unusual, or that has 87 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: a secret of some kind is a potential sort of 88 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: subject for one of our stories. And so so two 89 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, what was the title of the post 90 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: that had come out in Value Peter Teal is totally 91 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: gay people. And I think that in one there's a 92 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: an early Gawker memo that said every post should have 93 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: a glint of meanness. Yeah, I read that, and I 94 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: think that that that headline perfectly encapsulates that. It's it's 95 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: it's not just that you're taking a relatively private figure, 96 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: someone who is certainly a well known investor, But just 97 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: because you're an investor doesn't mean people get to know 98 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: who you have sex with. Or not um. But wasn't 99 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: by the way, let me interrupt you here, wasn't it 100 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: the worst kept secret in the world. I mean, it 101 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: wasn't that he was closeted. People knew, in fact, the 102 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: author of that post was gay. And he said half 103 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: of San Francisco knew Peter Field was gay. Yeah, that 104 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: that that's what they claim. I think Peter would say, 105 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, my parents knew, my close colleagues knew. The 106 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: people I went to college with new perhaps, but that 107 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it should be broadcast to an audience 108 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: of potentially millions of people. Do you know what I mean? 109 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: Isn't that sort of an odd distinction, because if someone 110 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: out someone who's closeted, that's a terrible violation. Anybody who 111 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: is gay should feel free to out themselves at a 112 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: time of their own choosing. But what I find fascinating 113 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: is this epic battle is started by not even taking 114 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: something that was private making public, but taking something that 115 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: was known but not publicized and saying we're gonna take 116 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: this and spread it around a little bit and put 117 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: a little glauk Er stink on it. Well, let's say 118 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: that you and your wife have an open marriage. Obviously 119 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: some people would know by definition of it being open, 120 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: have you heard any Yeah, But let's say I had 121 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: heard something. Does that mean at what point do you 122 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: become a fully public figure the way a president or 123 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: a celebrity or a rock star is a fully public person. 124 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: And at what point are you sort of on the fringes? 125 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: And and so I think I think there's some argument 126 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: over whether it should be private or shouldn't be private. 127 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: But what I think there's less argument is this is 128 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: the sensitivity with which such a subject is treated. Right, 129 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: So he gets blindsided by this article, and in to 130 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: some respects, in some respects, it doesn't actually matter whether 131 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: he should have been out it or not. What mattered 132 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: is that he felt that it was a grave violation. Right. 133 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: It's like, uh, it doesn't matter if the Count of 134 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: Monte Cristo actually was wrong. What matters is that he's 135 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: doing in prison about it. So let's ask the question, 136 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: is Peter Thiel Finskin, should he have let this be? 137 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: The expression I grew up with, was water off a 138 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: duck's let's call it back? Or or was this a 139 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: real slight that wanted this sort of Because it seems 140 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: like someone shot him with a pea shooter, and he 141 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: took a bazooker and fired back. Well to that, we 142 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: gotta go back into time a little bit and think 143 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: about you know, in two thousand seven, Obama hasn't even 144 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: come out in favor of gay marriage, so it is 145 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: a different issue at the show time. And I think 146 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: he had his own complicated relationship with his own sexuality. 147 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: He's a he's a he's conservative, he he's he's private. 148 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: I think he wrestled with that. I think really what 149 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: it was is that this is his rude awakening, his 150 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: rude introduction into this media outlet that operates with the 151 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: glint of meanness that says the things that other people 152 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 1: can't say, right, that that uh, that sort of attacks 153 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: publishes first and verifies second. And and you got to 154 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: remember he doesn't really actively begin to plot against Hawker 155 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: until probably around two thousand eleven. So it's really this 156 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: thing that's just sort of bouncing around in his head. 157 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: And he's just dating. He's he's seeing things that are 158 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: writing about other people. He's seeing them right about his businesses, 159 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: he's seeing them right about complete strangers who did nothing wrong. 160 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: And it's, as you said, it's just it's just it, 161 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: and it's growing, and it's this thing that he can't 162 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: stop thinking about. And that's really where this conspiracy is 163 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: born out of. Let's talk a little bit about the 164 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: person who planted the seed in the mind of Peter 165 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: that there was an opportunity to uh seek his revenge 166 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: against Nick Denton and Glawker by exploring the possibility of 167 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: of funding litigation against them. So how who is Mr 168 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: A and how did he hatch up this whole crazy conspiracy. 169 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: So in April of two thousand eleven, Peter meets with 170 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: this young recent college graduate in in Berlin. And this 171 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: is sort of his m O. He looks for talented 172 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: young people, people he's going to invest in. People's gonna 173 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: place at his startups. The PayPal mafia, which we now 174 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: see as sort of one of the most powerful networks 175 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: of investors probably in history, originates because of this habit 176 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: from Teal. And so he meets with with this young man. 177 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: I refer to him as Mr A. Um. I know 178 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: the identity of the source, but my agreement with the 179 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: sources that I wouldn't I wouldn't amask him. But uh, 180 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: they meet and they're talking about Gawker and Tio's complaining 181 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: and they're they're talking about this unfair coverage, and Peter says, 182 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: you know, but of course there's nothing you can do 183 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: about it. And Mr A looks Teal in the eye. 184 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: It's it's remarkable that he would have the stones to 185 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: do this, and he says, you know, Peter, what would 186 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: the world look like if if everyone thought that way? 187 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: And this is like the perfect thing you could say 188 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: to provoke Peter into doing something, And then he goes 189 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: into this pitch. He says, look, I think, I think 190 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: buried within Gawker's archives is a number of UH posts 191 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: that would be UH violation of some law or civil 192 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: or or or criminal in one way or another. I 193 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: think if you, if you put up the money, in 194 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: the time, the resources, we could pursue causes of action 195 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: in those instances and eventually be able to hold them accountable. 196 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 1: What they did to you out in you is not 197 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: illegal at least it's on the line, but they may 198 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: have gone way over the line in other cases. And 199 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: so they Peter agrees in this meeting to to budget 200 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: ten million dollars on this completely insane project that ultimately 201 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: culminates in a hundred and forty million dollar judgment and 202 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: Gawker's so good. R O I on that in the 203 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: at least from a venture capital perspective, and at the 204 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: time just to put ten million dollars, which sounds like 205 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: a lot of money into perspective, he's worth. He's one 206 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: of the early investors in Facebook. He's been extremely successful 207 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: as a VC, not just PayPal but Facebook and go 208 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: down a long list of successful investments. I believe at 209 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: the time Facebook was about a billion dollar holding for him. 210 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: I don't know if he was still holding all of it, 211 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, Facebook is going to I p O about 212 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: one year later, and he's gonna own ten percent of 213 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: it at the I p O. This is a fraction 214 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: of his net worth. Uh, this is you know, chump change. 215 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: But it is also objectively a way more money than 216 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: anyone has ever spent on something like this before. The 217 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: assumption is, hey, if you had ten million dollars to 218 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: burn through, could you find a more productive usage for 219 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: it or is it just simply self indulgent revenge? Well 220 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: that that is that is the question. But Peter has 221 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: come to say that he believes this is the most 222 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: philanthrop thing he's ever done. His point was he believes 223 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: that we've sort of accepted this idea of technological determinism. Right, 224 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: Blogging is invented Gauger's Gauger is an outgrowth of that 225 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: of that that technology, and then we're as a society 226 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: just sort of a slave to whatever this thing does. 227 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: Right for Recruider much less genteel because of no holds barred. 228 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: And you could argue we have the same attitude towards 229 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: our cell phones, towards Facebook, towards Twitter, like this is 230 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: what it is, right, it was invented with this is 231 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: and and Peter Peter sort of rejected that idea. And 232 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: he thought that Gawker was this sort of representation of 233 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: everything he felt was wrong with the media. And then 234 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: if you could do something about it, if you could 235 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: hold them accountable in quarter, you could, you could wipe 236 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: them off the face of the earth, that it would 237 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: actually change the direction of culture. I think this is 238 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: what so so it's ideological in addition to being deeply 239 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: personal and and sort of revenge based, right, It's it's 240 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: this complicated mix of motivation, and we should never underestimate 241 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: the ability of of ideologus to rationalize any behavior in 242 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: furtherance of the cause. Well, and probably never underestimate the 243 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: ability of extremely wealthy people to rationalize whatever their preferences 244 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: as being part of the greater good. So let's let's 245 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: discuss the pushback to that. Some people have looked at 246 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: this and said, hey, it's concerning that an angry billionaire 247 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: has the ability to effectively close down a media outlet. 248 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: Are we going to now have to start treating the 249 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: point oh one percent and point o one percent with 250 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: kid gloves? Isn't this a direct contradiction of the First 251 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: Amendment and a robust free press in a democracy. So 252 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: what Peter would say is that this case had absolutely 253 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the First Amendment. This was an 254 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: invasion of privacy claim. And in fact, when they when 255 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: he sits down with Mr A and then ultimately Charles Harder, 256 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: the lo or that they hire to litigate these cases, 257 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: they are specifically looking for cases that are not liabele 258 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: in defamation. They're looking for copyright violations, UH, violations of 259 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: of federal trade laws, violations of UH, you know, individual 260 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: privacy that and so the reason they end up suing 261 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: Gawker in Florida UH is that the they're running a 262 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: sex tape of of an individual is is of a 263 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: very sort of specific violation there uh that they can 264 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: ultimately be held accountable for. So they picked Florida because 265 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: of the state laws. What was anybody related in Florida? Anybody? Well, 266 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: Hogan lives there and that's what what is his his 267 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: terry Terry Balaya. So one of the things that strikes 268 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: me about the book, And I was talking to you 269 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: offline saying I didn't expect to like it, but I'm 270 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: really enjoying it, and kudos to you. It's really well written. Um, 271 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: having only read The Daily Stoic previously, I was not 272 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: expecting this. But one of the things that struck me 273 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: is everybody involved is just a wholly unsympathetic character. You 274 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: you may be impressed with their intellect, but everybody here 275 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: is a bad after in some way. And yet it's 276 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: kind of a compelling narrative. Well, I think it's extremely compelling, 277 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: just and almost unbelievable what actually happened. You know that 278 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: it's these two Florida DJs and a professional wrestler and 279 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: somehow Donald Trump ends up entering the story at the 280 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: very end. The DJs not get ted because they literally 281 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: stole property and then released it. You would think their 282 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: liabilities on them as much as anybody. Well, I mean, 283 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: one of the weird arguments, and this is where it 284 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: gets so sort of conspiracy theory esque, is that the 285 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: FBI investigates the person who stole the tape, and the 286 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: lawyer who was brokering the tape decide declines to prosecute 287 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: despite having overwhelming evidence. And then that lawyer is the 288 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: same lawyer who now represents those two porn stars who 289 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: are accused of of gring secret deals with Donald Trump 290 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: in the in the two at the end of the 291 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen campaign. So the whole story is insane. 292 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: But I think part of that, the sordidness and the 293 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: the the quickness with which you want to judge the 294 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: person who you disagree with most has has actually blinded 295 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: people to what happened. And I think one of the reasons, 296 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wanted to write this story 297 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: and why I was so focused on it, is that 298 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: beneath all that there is a level of sort of 299 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: extreme competence and ruthlessness and effectiveness. It's a triumph of 300 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: planning and organization, that he did this thing that everyone 301 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: thought was impossible, right underneath the noses of everyone who 302 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: was supposed to be looking into it. And and and 303 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: I think we've got to first understand exactly what happened 304 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: before we make those judgments. And I think, you know, 305 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: the media has done a poor job covering this story 306 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: because they're either obsessed with the sensational aspects or they're 307 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: so self interested in afraid that this could happen to them. 308 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: The fact that first, for instance, I'm the first person 309 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: to report on the existence of Mr. A not his name, 310 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: but that he even existed in one of the most 311 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: covered stories in the history of media, is in some 312 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: ways incredibly alarming. It's like the media was so quick 313 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: to jump to conclusions they thought Peter Thiel was the personally, 314 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, reviewing legal briefs in the in the ky 315 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: which is absurd. And so I want, I want to 316 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: we've got to understand how power works, because I think 317 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: this is indicative or perhaps a sign of what's to 318 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: come now that Silicon Valley is in some ways the 319 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: power center of the entire planet. We were discussing earlier 320 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: the role of the media in this book, and how 321 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: they really kind of dropped the ball it. It seemed 322 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: that the more salacious aspects lead to very sensational coverage. 323 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: Tell us about how Mr a came about in your 324 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: your understanding of how this whole a fair unrolled. I 325 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: remember I was first interviewing Peter and he mentioned you know. 326 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: I was like, how did you get this idea? And 327 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: he says, oh, well, I was in this meeting and 328 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: this you know this person. I was, what, there, there's 329 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: someone other than you involved in this. This is unbelievable. 330 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: Nobody had reported about it, Nobody had said not until 331 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: after the book came out. I think BuzzFeed out and 332 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: Mr Ray and I know you're not allowed to confirm 333 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: or deny, but if you google the book and BuzzFeed, 334 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: you could get at least one person's best guests, right, 335 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: and and and and that story only breaks because my 336 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: depending release of the book. Right. So it is it 337 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: is incredible that this man's identity was able, not again 338 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: not just his his actual name, his legal name, but 339 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: that his role entire whole episode. And and in fact, 340 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: that was what allowed the conspiracy to be so successful, 341 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: is that there was at you know, three levels or 342 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: three layers removed between Peter and whole Cogan, and that 343 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: was able to separate these things. You know, I think 344 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: Peter said to me one time when I was asking, 345 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: he said, you know, I think what was so incredible 346 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: to me. He's like, I was so paranoid people were 347 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: right about to discover us. And then he said, in retrospect, 348 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: I realized they weren't even thinking about what it wasn't 349 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: even looking for. And he said this about his investment strategies. 350 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: He says, it's not so much that people often think 351 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: that I'm wrong about one of his big contrarian bets, 352 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: is that they're not thinking about it at all. Um. 353 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: And those are the opportunities that he actually looks for. 354 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: And I think the media, even after this, even after 355 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: his identity and Mr A's identity is broken again, is 356 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: so focused on, you know, what this means for their business, 357 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: rather than communicating facts to the public. Um. You know 358 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: that that again we sort of get this weird sell 359 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: this media bubble around these really important issues. And I 360 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: think this applies as much to the coverage of this 361 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: case as the coverage of Donald Trump or the coverage 362 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: of any sort of controversial thing. We were told why 363 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: we should be outraged, but we're not really fully explained 364 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: to what the thing is, what the facts are, and 365 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: this is a weird filter bubble that we're in. So 366 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: let's let's talk a little bit about your background and 367 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: how you ended up becoming, uh, this media scourge. You 368 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: drop out of college to take a job at a 369 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: Hollywood talent agency. That sounds like a risky plan. What 370 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: were you thinking at the time? That was the question 371 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: my parents, of course asked At the time. I I 372 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: felt like this was you know, this is two thousand 373 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: seven sort of media is in this uh, media and 374 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: technology and cultures in this weird shift, we're embracing all 375 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: these new trends, and I just thought, why would I 376 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: stay in school when I have the chance to sort 377 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: of do things in the real world, right, Like, why 378 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: would I stay in school and then hopefully read about 379 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: the things that I was going to be doing rather 380 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: than you know, actually going out and doing them. And 381 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: so I sort of got a you know, a jump 382 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: on people of my age group. I you know, I 383 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: skipped two years of waiting in line essentially, and and 384 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: I happened to end up working for a number of 385 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: really controversial clients, and I think it sort of showed 386 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: me a wait, this is how the sausage gets made 387 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: on sort of on the marketing side, on the news side. 388 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: And then my first book ended up being this kind 389 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: of expose of that, which was very controversial at the time. 390 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: And then ironically, you know, given that I wrote this 391 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: book about fake news, was probably five or so years 392 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: early to the entire trend, you know, all about fake 393 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: Twitter accounts and media controversy. So since you wrote that book, 394 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: how many years ago? It's almost a decade ago. It 395 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: came out in two thousand and twelve. Okay, so six 396 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: years ago, seven years ago. Uh, fake news has become 397 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: a presidential utterance all the time. Uh, Facebook, Google, Search, Twitter. 398 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: There are all sorts of these accusations that not just 399 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: the mainstream media, but the technology aspect of that completely 400 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: dropped the ball in this How has the entire media 401 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: landscape change society? And what does this mean for us 402 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: in a democracy where you can almost argue that sort 403 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: of an equivalent to the financial industry and that, you know, 404 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: the financial crisis, there had been a number of warnings. 405 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 1: They were sort of the writing on the wall. There 406 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: were these people who are pointing out problems and then 407 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: they sort of you know, greed and self interest sort 408 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: of motivates people to sort of push past that, and 409 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: then you get this sort of catastrophic failure. I think 410 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: in in media, we've had a similar situation in which 411 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: the incentives were toxic, uh and complicated the you know, 412 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: the idea of paying people by the page, you the 413 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: idea of of sort of most the news being filtered 414 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: through these social networks where they have to either go 415 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: viral and if they're not, then no one sees them. 416 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: These incentives were were there, and they were brewing, and 417 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, I wrote about it, and many other people 418 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: were like, look, this is dangerous something. This is ripe 419 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: for manipulation. Not only is this rife with miss manipulation, 420 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: it's right for very serious manipulation. And they sort of 421 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: slept walked on and and you know, Russia and you 422 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: could argue, Donald Trump and and other people sort of 423 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: figured out the loopholes in that system where the weak points, 424 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: and they've hit them so many times that that that 425 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: now where where we are. You know, whether it's uh 426 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of fake accounts by Russian bots, or 427 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: whether it's Donald Trump getting two billion dollars worth of 428 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: free publicity by sort of leveraging this constant controversy and outrage. 429 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: And then we wonder why we're in the situation we're in. 430 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: There's this old quote from a media critic, and he says, 431 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, America as a country governed by public opinion. 432 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: So what governs public opinion governs the governs the country 433 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: In the nineteen in the early he said this, it 434 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: was newspapers, but now it's blogs and social media and 435 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: and and the sort of online journalism. So let's talk 436 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: a little bit about blogs. You you wrote, the business 437 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: model for blogs and cars is publishers and writers to 438 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: value the click above other potential goals like truth, accuracy, 439 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: and fairness. So once that toothpaste is out of the tube, 440 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: is there any putting it back? Or are we just 441 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: stuck with this somewhat reckless, not quite mainstream form of 442 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: of media. I think we're stuck in some ways, although 443 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: there there is some you know, things to be optimistic too. 444 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: I think, for instance, one of the reasons we're seeing 445 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: this massive uh sort of land Russian podcasts is because 446 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: podcasts aren't subject to those same toxic economics right, A 447 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: podcast is this self contained unit. It's long, it's deep, 448 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: it's thoughtful. There's no viral headline that makes people share it. 449 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: It's you subscribe to this podcast and you listen to it, 450 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: and you have this relationship with the host, and they 451 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: have a reputation to a pold that's very different than 452 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: the Huffington's Post trying to churn out as many articles 453 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: as they can per day to get you to click 454 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: on one thing, and whether they burn you, they don't 455 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: care because they know in six months they'll get you 456 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: on another one. I was gonna call this Ryan Holiday's 457 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: sex tape escapade, but you're telling me that's just too 458 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: clicking and not not what my listeners want to hear. 459 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: I imagine for the most part, the titles have very 460 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: little impact on whether the difference between your episodes probably 461 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: has more to do with the guests than the provocative 462 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: nature of the headline. It's the quality of the content, 463 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: but that doesn't exist in web or print based media. Well. 464 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: I do think you're starting to see some improvements with paywalls, 465 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: for instance, like if you think about the I write 466 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: about this in trust Me, I'm lying Tyler Cowen, the 467 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: brilliant economist is yeah, he's the best. He was saying, 468 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, what are the what's the economics of of 469 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: a paywall? It's saying, Okay, the first five articles are free, 470 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: the first ten articles are free, and everything else you 471 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: have to pay. So now they're incentive is to write 472 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: at least eleven pay worthy articles, right, They they've got 473 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: to get you. That's very different than I've got to 474 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: write as many articles as I can to trick you 475 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: into reading to get a halfpenny of advertising revenue each time. 476 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: And some of the kids at glkers, and they were kids, 477 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: were doing eight ten posts a day, seven days a week. 478 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: It sounded like a relentless grinds. I mean, it's a 479 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: digital sweatshop in some ways. And and you know, for instance, 480 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: is the headline. You would never you would never want 481 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: a Bloomberg reporter to be writing about a stock that 482 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: they own, right, that would be a conflict of interest. 483 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: But what if the Bloomberg reporter is paid and this 484 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: is how it was at GAKRA and it is still 485 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: at many blogs. What if you're paid based on how 486 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: many views your article does? Right now, your stock is 487 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: the content, right, so you're not gonna You're not gonna 488 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: write a complicated, nuanced piece without a strong conclusion. You're 489 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: gonna say, uh, you're gonna simplify that issue. You're gonna 490 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: try to make it as provocative or incendiary as possible, 491 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: because these are the emotions that drive that kind of virality. 492 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: And so the conflict of interest isn't in one stock. 493 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: It isn't that they're writing about Google. It's that they 494 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: want to slam Google or they want to praise Google 495 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 1: because that's where the traffic is, and that's just as manipulative. 496 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about what you've done outside 497 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: of of writing books, and I definitely want to get 498 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: back to the Daily dec But I have to ask 499 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: you about American Apparel. You're a young kid, you're like 500 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: nineteen or twenty, you're just dropped out of college. How 501 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: on earth do you get hired as the head of 502 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: pr for them? Well, they're right in the middle of 503 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: a sexual harassment scandal with their founder of Charney and 504 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: all sorts of other things. They had a very salacious 505 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: advertising campaign. No one was really surprised by this. The 506 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: timeline there is it's a it's a bit confusing, but uh, 507 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: you know, I got hired as sort of a consultant. 508 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: Early on, I was friends with someone who's on the 509 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: board of directors, the author Robert Greene, And I come 510 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: in as a consultant. Then I started cleaning stuff up, organizing. Uh, 511 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, the way the marketing efforts are done. There 512 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: was no marketing department. I put one together and then 513 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: I'm in charge of that. And then, you know, one 514 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: publicity scandal after another. Uh it was it was an exhausting, 515 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: chaotic company, I'll put it that way. But it was 516 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: also sort of a crash course, both not in not 517 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: just in corporate pr and strategy and all these things, 518 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: but also in just seeing how these scandals are reported 519 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: by the media, where there might be a lot of 520 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: truth to to them, but that doesn't mean the reporting 521 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: about them is necessarily accurate, right, And so there was 522 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: and Cocker was a company that covered American appair all 523 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: the time. So I got to really see how that 524 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: sausage was made and it made me, you know, not 525 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: want to eat any So, so the company eventually files 526 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: for bankruptcy. They went through reorganization. Uh, the founder of 527 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: Charnie gets forced out. Uh. The company now has an 528 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: old woman board of directors. So what was that place 529 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: like to work in? Was it as insane as it 530 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: appeared from the outside? Was that just an image? I 531 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: would say it was both less insane and more insane. Right, 532 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't the Playboy Mansion, but it was chaotic and 533 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: dysfunctional and and and oftentimes sort of startups that are 534 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: still run by the person who found them are are 535 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: that way, right. Uh, oftentimes the genius of the creator 536 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: is also their biggest weakness. But I think that's a 537 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: good way to encapsulate what was what was wrong at 538 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: American Apparel. So you effectively get a crash course in 539 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: the art of manipulating the media. How on earth did 540 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: did you find your way to that? And did you 541 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: successfully help keep the company alive for long enough so 542 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: that they could go through this re or bankruptcy. Well, 543 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: it's a it's a really sad story in the sense 544 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: that it was a company once worth a billion dollars 545 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: and it was a great idea. Hey, sweatshop free apparel. Yeah, 546 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: it was brilliant. I mean we sold millions, hundreds of 547 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: millions of garments. We had twelve thousand employees, we had 548 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: stores in twenty countries. To me, it's evident. You can 549 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: have the best idea in the world, you can totally 550 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: resonate with your company, with your customers. But if you 551 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: don't manage yourself, well, if you're not disciplined and organized, 552 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: you don't bring in that adult supervision doesn't matter. Execution 553 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: is everything. Yeah, and so it sort of tore itself 554 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: apart both with scandals. But uh, you know, companies can 555 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: survive scandals. What they can't survive as bad management. And 556 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: I think that's ultimately what happened there. So you write 557 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: a book after this cold trust me I'm lying? Yea, 558 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: which in I love the title. So are you lying? 559 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: Why should people trust you? You? You raise the question yourself, Yeah, 560 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: trust me I'm lying. Is the liar's paradox. If someone 561 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: tells you the lying, can you believe them? Uh? And 562 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: my answer to that is, you know, if I was 563 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: intending to manipulate people, I probably wouldn't write a book 564 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: where I gave away exactly how all this works. You know, 565 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: that's first thinking. Second level thinking is, oh, I'm going 566 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: to show them so nobody really believes this. The idea 567 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: for I thought I was look, I I sort of 568 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: had grown disillusioned and disgusted with how all this worked. 569 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: And I had this sort of premonition that some manipulating 570 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: the media to sell T shirts is not the world's 571 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: worst sin, right, but I had this sense that the 572 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: same things could be done for much more ominous ends. 573 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: That's really why I wrote the book, and I think 574 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: that's ultimately why it resonated, why it's taught in all 575 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: these journalism schools. Uh And And the sad part was 576 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: that people who really needed to listen to it didn't 577 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: listen to it, and they didn't wake up to the 578 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, the the exposure there until 579 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: basically after Donald Trump was elected and and then they said, 580 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: oh wait, this is real serious, there's real cost to this. 581 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: So I can tell if this Times review is a 582 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: compliment or a slight quote. He is like a snake 583 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: oil salesman who swears he is abandoned the snake oil, 584 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: but not the highly effective snake oil sales tactics. So 585 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: how do you respond to something like that? First of all, 586 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: is that a compliment or is that a a dig 587 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: on you? Well, that's sort of your typical Times sort 588 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: of looking down their nose at you and and uh, overall, 589 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: that article was not a bad piece of pr No, 590 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: But you know, profiles are filled with these sort of 591 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: subtle digs get you too, that that you walk away 592 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: thinking that obviously the writer is period to the person 593 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: that they're writing about, and there's a little bit of 594 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: that in the piece, which the territory. That's the nature 595 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: of all criticism and reviews. Yeah, right, you you can't. 596 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: You don't outwardly attack them. You undermine them with the 597 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: anecdotal details. Right, Um, But I think, uh, I I don't. 598 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: I don't think it's snake oil tactics. I mean the 599 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: the you write a book, you have an idea, you 600 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: have something you have to get out in the world. 601 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: If you don't sell it, how will anyone ever find 602 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: out about it? And I think that's how there. You know, 603 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: you could say that the shelves grown under the weight 604 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: of undiscovered, brilliant books. And I think what I bring 605 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: to my writing is stuff that resonates with people. The 606 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: vast majority of mysels sales come from word of mouth. 607 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: But I also know how to how to create a 608 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: stir around that book when it comes out, and and 609 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: to and to get a discussion going, which is what 610 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: the job of an author is so conspiracy, you know 611 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: it's gonna sell itself. Given the content, the details, and 612 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the never before discover details the daily 613 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: stoic about a two thousand year old philosophy, I have 614 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: to pivot and ask you a what motivated you to 615 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: write this? And be how does such a what sounds 616 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: like a dry I mean I found the book because 617 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 1: in college I studied a lot of philosophy and I'm 618 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: fascinated by a ton of people from Marcus Royalist, go 619 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: down the list. So this was one of those things. 620 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's a surprising title. Let's let's try that. 621 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: How did this become such a fireball in Silicon Valley? Well, 622 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, I fell in love a stoicism when I 623 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: was in college. It was it was it was like, oh, wait, 624 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: this is how you're supposed to live right And and 625 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: I would say it was very helpful amidst the chaos 626 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: of American apparel, not wanting to get implicated in it 627 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: and sucked into it. So so layout for for people 628 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: who may not be philosophy majors lay out the details 629 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 1: in a few bullet points of what Stoicism is about 630 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: what's a philosophy of sort of inner strength and discipline. 631 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: It holds that sort of virtue and and and constancy 632 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: or the highest goods. And then I think my sort 633 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: of definition to it to lay people is like a 634 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: stoic says, you don't control the world around you, but 635 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: you always control how you respond, and you got to 636 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: respond well, and that you you see everything good and 637 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: bad as this sort of opportunity for that response. Right. 638 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: You can't make it stop raining, but you can remember 639 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: to bring an umbrella. Is really the oversimplified version. Yeah, 640 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: that which people, by the way, you find hard to 641 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: grasp sometimes. Right, And and you know, most of what 642 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: was happening that American apparel was outside my control, but 643 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: I did control, you know, the direction of my own career, 644 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: the direction of my own life, the decisions I was 645 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: going to make personally right, and what I was going 646 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: to learn from what was happening and all these things. 647 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: Did the residents in Silicon Valley come as any sort 648 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: of surprise to you? I mean that it really seemed 649 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: to have caught on there. The Silicon Valley residents surprised 650 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: me a lot less than its residents in professional sports. 651 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there are dozens of major league franchises in 652 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: every sport that are that read the Day the stock 653 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: on a daily basis, of politicians that read it in 654 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: the Senate dining room. It's been this very absurd, sort 655 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: of surreal experience. And so when people, you know, talk 656 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: to me about my controversial books, it's it's always I 657 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: sort of smile and laugh, because they've sold a fraction, 658 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: uh of the copies that my serious books on silk 659 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: philosophy have sold, and the impact, and none of those 660 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: people care who I am, and those books have essentially 661 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: marketed themselves. I'm one of those people who I had 662 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: no idea you had authored this book until I started 663 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: researching Conspiracy. And I'm like, wait a second, I have 664 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: not one, but two copies. I have one in the 665 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: office and one at home. You're telling me the guy 666 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: who wrote Conspiracy wrote this all right? Now, I'm intrigued 667 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: by this person as an author, because these two books 668 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: could not be further apart in terms of subject matter, 669 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: and and Peter Thield could have used a little stoicism 670 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: in his life, and certainly Nick Detton, actually Nick Detton 671 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: is a fan of the Daily Stoic as well, and 672 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: that's one of the things we can because that's that's 673 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: what you turned to when you're forced into personal bankruptcy 674 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: by a secret vendetta from a person you didn't even 675 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: know you'd upset, right, Um, but but you know it's 676 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: it's weird too. And I remember talking about it with 677 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: that New York Times reporter you're mentioning, you know, I 678 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: was saying, like, look, I'm a good marketer. I can 679 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 1: sell anything. Why would I have chosen a two thousand 680 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: year old philosophy that that has the sort of stereo 681 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: emotionless uh dry, uh without joy? Why would I have 682 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: chosen stoicism unless that's what I'm actually interested in, Unless 683 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: I really felt like it could make a difference if 684 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: if if I was financially motivated, I'd be working in 685 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies or you know that there's any something a little 686 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: hotter than than stoicism, right right, And and and it 687 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: really is something that has been deeply impactful in my life, 688 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: that's helped me through my own sort of difficult circumstances, 689 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: and and and something I I felt like was worthy of, 690 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: you know, sort of making my my life's work. And 691 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 1: is it true you read the meditations four times in 692 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: a row as a college student or is that just 693 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: it would have been? I mean four times in a 694 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 1: row is probably an understand I probably read that book. 695 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: You really? Yeah? Wow, that's that's fascinating. We have been 696 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: speaking to Ryan Holiday, author most recently of Conspiracy and 697 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: previously of The Daily Stoic. If you enjoy these conversations, 698 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: be sure and check out the podcast extras, where we 699 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 1: keep the tape rolling and continue to discuss all things 700 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: conspiracy related. You can find that at iTunes, Overcast, Bloomberg, SoundCloud, 701 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: wherever your finer podcasts are sold. We love your comments, 702 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast 703 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. Check out my daily column on 704 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg View dot com. You could follow me on Twitter 705 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: at rid Holts. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening to the 706 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. Ryan, 707 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this this you know 708 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: a little inside baseball. Um. I prepare these daily reads 709 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg every day, and as I'm and always, as 710 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: soon as I hit send, twenty minutes later, I find 711 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: something interesting and I find Derrick Thompson of the Atlantic, 712 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: who wrote the book. Um, I want to say hit Makers, right, 713 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: who was previous? Yeah, wonderful, he's the previous guest of 714 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: the show. I find his conversation with you and I'm like, 715 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is so much more interesting than 716 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: I ever expected conspiracy to be. There's so many questions 717 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: we didn't get to. I have to give you a 718 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: few quotes of yours and have you push back them. 719 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: Blogging is a digital blood sport. Explained Well, it's not 720 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: just uh, this sort of battle inside a company for clicks, right, 721 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: Who who's the best writer, Who's getting the best scoops? Uh, 722 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: it's it's this juror. It's this intense battle between journalists 723 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: and all these different outlets. You gotta be first, you 724 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 1: gotta you gotta brand your story the best, you gotta 725 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: have the best headline. All these news sources are competing 726 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: with each other for a finite amount of attention. So 727 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: it's a blood sport that way. But then also we 728 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: could say we take a as a as the view 729 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: in public. We take a great deal of pleasure and 730 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: watching people it particularly well known people get torn apart. 731 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: So it's this blood sport I think in both directions. 732 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: Isn't the history of that sort of tabloid journalism and 733 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: that really gossipy celebrity rag type of approach to media. 734 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,720 Speaker 1: Hasn't that been around for forever? Yeah? I think Oscar 735 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: Wilde said, we used to have the rack and now 736 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: we have the press. That's how we used to torture people, 737 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: and now we do it. Uh you know, now we 738 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: do it digitally. Um. So, So I think it's just 739 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: an an escalation or a growth in a trend that's 740 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: always been there. Another quote, and this one was from 741 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: trust Me on lying my job was so easy that 742 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: it scared me. Yes, and you're obviously referring to the 743 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 1: media and your ability to manage the coverage they were doing. 744 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: Explain why it scared you. I'll give you an example. 745 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: When I was putting out and trust Me, I'm lying. Um, 746 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: I thought, what can I do that sort of proves 747 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: this book right? And so I I put out a 748 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: press release where I announced the size of the advance, 749 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: which I doubled. Uh wait, so let me. Let's so 750 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: you claimed the two fifty advance. Now I claimed that 751 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: to fifty advance was a five dred thousand dollar advance 752 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: because nobody fact checks press releases. So so it was 753 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: a two fifty you claimed five hundred, and people bought it, 754 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 1: immediately picked up. No One became tremendous amount of buzz 755 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: about where is this who is this person? How do 756 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: you just get a half a million? And he said, hey, 757 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: this guy is writing a book about lying to the press. 758 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: Maybe we should fact check what he saying. Yeah, nobody said, 759 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: let's call the publisher and get the size of the advance. Right, 760 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,320 Speaker 1: So that's the first thing, and then us So it 761 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: starts to get picked up. And then I I send 762 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: an anonymous tip to Gawker, a writer named Hamilton Nolan, 763 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: and I say, how could this person have gotten a 764 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: half a million dollar book deal? It must be a 765 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: celebrity tell All about his clients. And you just basically 766 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: read me. He sends me an email. Uh, and I say, 767 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: I can't answer this, no comment right, and uh manufactured 768 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 1: buzz Right. Five minutes later, you know, is Ryan Holliday's 769 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: new book A Celebrity Tell All? You know Boom, that 770 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: story to this to this day has not been corrected. 771 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: And this is the same website that you know would 772 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: attack me for writing this book or that would say that, 773 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: you know, Peter Thiel destroyed a venerable institution of journalism 774 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: in his in his lot, and it's like, actually, no, 775 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: this was in many cases a rumor mill, right, a 776 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: clearinghouse for rumors and gossip up in poorly fact checked information. 777 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: And and we this revisionist history does not quite encapsulate 778 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: how the system actually works. And so my point is, look, 779 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: I did that as a joke for a book to 780 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: prove a point. But what could I do if I 781 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: wanted to propagate some racist theory or if you had 782 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: a more nefarious intense Exactly? Wow, that that is just astonishing. 783 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: Who was the media editor at The Observer when you 784 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: were there? Uh? Well, Ken Kerson was the editor in chief. 785 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,959 Speaker 1: That's who edited my columns. The one thing I didn't 786 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 1: get to about conspiracy earlier was U M b TA. 787 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,719 Speaker 1: That was Peter Thiel's acronym, Yeah for for Gawker tell 788 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: us about they called his acronym stands for Manhattan based 789 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: terrorist organization. And that's that's what he believes. This is 790 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,880 Speaker 1: not just a hey, I'm annoyed that they did this. 791 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: He's really looking at them as a very significant um 792 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: problem for or anybody who's potentially in the public eye. Yeah, 793 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: and I think he deeply believed that, right or wrong, 794 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: But it is the predilection of anyone in a feud 795 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: or in a conflict. You label your opponent as evil 796 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: and it allows you to justify the lengths to which 797 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: you're going to demonize them, and they're no longer a person. 798 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: So we we have the Hulk Hogan sex tape. That 799 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: wasn't the only sex tape, didn't um was it Fred 800 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: Durst of Limp Biscuit. And they run a number of 801 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: sex tapes and what was so and and leaked celebrity photos. 802 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: They've done a number of things. And what was actually 803 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,879 Speaker 1: so remarkable of the act actress cell phones with all 804 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: the nude selfies on them. What I mean that was 805 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: that was in the press for like six months, a 806 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: different one every day. What was so remarkable was that 807 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: no one had actually taken doctor to trial before. And 808 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: that was Tell's insight, right, He felt like, no, not 809 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: only did most people not have the money, but most 810 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: people didn't have the determination or the stamina to take 811 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: it that far. And so there's this remarkable moment in 812 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: the trial that I talked about her pre trial where 813 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,879 Speaker 1: in the depositions, you know, the first question you're asked 814 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: that a deposition is have you ever been deposed before? 815 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: And the answer from the folks at Gawker's universally no, 816 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: all the most controversial media outlet on the planet that 817 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: had been never sued, and so they were in uncharted territory. 818 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: They didn't know how dangerous the predicament they were in 819 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: actually was. Because would you like writing this book? I 820 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: could tell you really loved writing Daily Stoic. You could 821 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: see this is a very personal book for you. Yes, 822 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: this one. I get the sense that you may empathize 823 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: more with some parties and others, but this felt like 824 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,720 Speaker 1: there was a little bit of an arms length distance. 825 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: Am I am I overstating that? No? No, I would 826 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: say Conspiracy was harder to write, and I enjoyed it 827 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 1: as the artistic challenge that it was. I would say 828 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: it's not personally fulfilling the way that writing the obstacles 829 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: away and he goes the enemy, and and and the 830 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: Daily stock have been from me because they've challenged this 831 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: book challenged me as a person, no question, but they 832 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: challenged me as the person I want to be in 833 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: everyday life. They challenge challenges me to be better and 834 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: ask tough questions. This was this was much more challenge 835 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: as a as a creative person. So in response to 836 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: to what you're saying philosophically, do you find, given your 837 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: history with places like American Apparel, does that interfere with 838 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: the way people perceive you? And and as a stoic 839 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: does it matter? What matters is your response to them? Right? Well, 840 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: I look, if I if I was writing my own 841 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: life story for the purposes of getting credibility of total strangers, 842 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: of course my experience with controversial clients is not what 843 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: I would put in there, right, And those are mistakes, 844 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: are not mistakes, So those are choices that I live 845 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: with and have learned from. Uh huh. But you are 846 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: very you know, I mean to be fair to you. 847 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,800 Speaker 1: You are twenty at American Apparel. At twenty, I was, 848 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: you know, going to Kegger's in college and getting high 849 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: all the time. I can imagine having a real job 850 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: at that age. Yeah, And and there are things I 851 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: would do differently, uh if it made me who I am. 852 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: But there are things I would do differently. But I think, 853 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, historically it's a strange argument, right, because Seneca 854 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: is Nero's tutor, So I think anything on the right 855 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: side of that, it's pretty safe, do you know what 856 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying? Like he was the advisor to the worst 857 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 1: emperor in history, a deranged psychopath, and he still felt 858 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,879 Speaker 1: that was consistent with stoicism. So I feel like it's 859 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 1: pretty respect if you you weren't advising the person who 860 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: led to the full of realmes for you. Um, let's 861 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: get to some of my favorite questions, the standard things 862 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: I ask all of my guests. And this is a 863 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: tough question to ask you because I don't know if 864 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,880 Speaker 1: there's the answer to this. What's the most important thing 865 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,359 Speaker 1: people don't know about you? That's a good question. I mean, 866 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: I think people tend to think I'm not a person, right, 867 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,799 Speaker 1: Like I'm either the sort of machine that turns out 868 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,320 Speaker 1: books or that I've worked for these controversial clients, so 869 00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,839 Speaker 1: I must be this horrible person, and you know, I'm 870 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: just a normal person who writes books. Pretty reasonable. I try. 871 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: I try to be That's that. I would like to 872 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,399 Speaker 1: be a successful normal person. That's my goal. Good, good girl. 873 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: Tell us about some of your early mentors who who 874 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,839 Speaker 1: uh sure affected who you are and your philosophy. Well, 875 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, one of the most trying things in American 876 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: apparel watching this company collapse and implode, is that Dove 877 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 1: Charney was this great friend of mine, this person who 878 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 1: had seen talent and promising me, who would groom to me, 879 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,879 Speaker 1: wo had given me many opportunities. It's very alarming when 880 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: someone who says I see some of myself and you 881 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: catastrophically implodes, right, and you start to question things. But 882 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: you know, Robert Green, the writer uh the forty forty 883 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,280 Speaker 1: A Laws of Power and Mastery, I was his apprentice 884 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,400 Speaker 1: on the side as all this is going on, I'm 885 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: also a research assistant to Robert Green, and and that 886 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: was my sort of crash course in how to be 887 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,240 Speaker 1: a writer? And and he's like sort of the model 888 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,279 Speaker 1: for how I try to live my life. Not I 889 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: don't try to live my life by the forty Laws 890 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: of Power. I try to live my life the way 891 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: that the author of the forty at Laws of Power, 892 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 1: who is this sort of disciplined, kind, generous person, happens 893 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,439 Speaker 1: to live his life in the profession that I'm also 894 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 1: in How did you find your Way? To Robert Green? 895 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,399 Speaker 1: He's such a fascinating character. I was an enormous fan, 896 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,280 Speaker 1: and I was working for a different author who happened 897 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 1: to know Robert, and I just wouldn't would Yeah, huh, 898 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: that's interesting. So who else influenced your approach to media 899 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: to media? Well, one of the books I would suggest 900 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: everyone read who Who's looking to sort of understand media 901 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: as a book by Upton Sinclair called The Brass Check 902 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: actually the name of my marketing company as well. But 903 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: he writes this book after the Jungle. He writes an 904 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: expose of journalism in the in the early twentieth century, 905 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: and it's just as disgusting as the meat packing industry. 906 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 1: And it's you could replace You could take the exact 907 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: same book, replace newspaper with blog and it would be 908 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: equally true today. So funny you say that there's this 909 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: book from the early twenties something I'm trying to remember 910 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: the name of the author, how trade stocks, And you 911 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: could replace any of the dot coms with any of 912 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,359 Speaker 1: the telegraph companies and everything is exactly the same. It's 913 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: it's amazing you said that's name exactly. Well, that's what 914 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: the Stokes say, is that history is just this constant 915 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 1: repetition of the same people doing the same Human nature 916 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,600 Speaker 1: is unchanging. It's it's no surprise. So you mentioned, um 917 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: that book. Tell us about some of your favorite books. 918 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 1: That's ah that It's always hard to give general book recommendation. 919 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: By the way, this is the one question I get 920 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,960 Speaker 1: more emails about what was the book that he recommended 921 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 1: more than any single thing. People want good recommendation. So 922 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,759 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be general, or it could be 923 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 1: general or specific. It's what books do you think are 924 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,279 Speaker 1: important to you and if people enjoy it or not, 925 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,400 Speaker 1: that's on them. So I'll give you a couple. So 926 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: one I would say everyone should read Robert Green forty 927 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,800 Speaker 1: Laws of Power and Mastery, incredibly important books. I'm a 928 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: big Rich Cohen fan. Uh. He wrote Tough Jews. He 929 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 1: wrote The Fish That Ate the Whale about Annuals of Murray, 930 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,000 Speaker 1: the founder of United Fruit. One of my favorite books 931 00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: of all time, The Well, Yeah, it's a it's an 932 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: incredible story of of of financial operations and entrepreneurism. Uh. 933 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,279 Speaker 1: And and you know government and Rich Cohen as I'm 934 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: a huge fan of Rich Cohen. Um, I'm a big 935 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: William to come to Sherman fan. He's one of my 936 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: favorite I love Sherman and Grant, so I both of 937 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: their memoirs. I would strongly urge people have I've read 938 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: so many biographies of Grant that I feel guilty about 939 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: reading another thousand page But I love churn out. His 940 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 1: book on Rockefeller's fantastics. I think his book on Andrew 941 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,239 Speaker 1: Hamilton's is as good as you would expect. His book 942 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,239 Speaker 1: on Washington is fantastic. I'm a big biography fan. I 943 00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,239 Speaker 1: think biography is how we learned. And then I would 944 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,439 Speaker 1: say Plutarch's Lives. Uh, there's a reason that almost every 945 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,360 Speaker 1: great historical figure is either in that book or obsessed 946 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: with that book. Um, and then of course the Stoics. 947 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: If you the most powerful a man in the world, 948 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: Marcus Currelius sat down every night and wrote in a 949 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,440 Speaker 1: journal notes to himself about how to be a better person, 950 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,080 Speaker 1: and that survives to us. Yeah, you would be an 951 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: idiot not to read that book. I mean, it's just 952 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 1: an incredible years old and it just persists ongoing exactly 953 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: that that is for someone said, I don't know if 954 00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 1: I have any books. That's a nice list of books. 955 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: What excites you right now? What are you looking out 956 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,160 Speaker 1: at and saying that's really interesting. I mean, I do 957 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: think cryptocurrencies are interesting that I think someone will solve 958 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: someone will find a practical use for blockchain. Uh And 959 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's a race to find there is 960 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,759 Speaker 1: the speculative bubble of cryptocurrency to separate things, the technology 961 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: and the trading there, and someone will solve it. And 962 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: I think that will be really interesting. So I'm interested 963 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: in that. You know, I live in Austin. I live 964 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,879 Speaker 1: on a small farm. I think I was just reading 965 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: this article. Elon Musk's brother was saying he thinks millennials 966 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,359 Speaker 1: will move to farms. He thinks that they will flee 967 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: the city, not to the suburbs, but to keep going 968 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: the land. And uh that mac that that lines up 969 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,480 Speaker 1: with my experience. And and I'm bolish on that. Although 970 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,160 Speaker 1: cities continue to attract young people and ever greater numbers, 971 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 1: especially now that jobs have become fairly plentiful. Yes, but 972 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,200 Speaker 1: I think, like if my own career is somewhat ahead 973 00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,800 Speaker 1: of the curve because I started early and got lucky 974 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: in many ways. It's that you go to the city, 975 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: you make your money, you build a business, a reputation, 976 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:31,719 Speaker 1: and then you can work from wherever you want. And 977 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: then you go, why am I living in New York City? 978 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,800 Speaker 1: And so I think that I think it will be 979 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: interesting to see how millennials chade. Our millennials going to 980 00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,279 Speaker 1: move into the suburbs, back into the suburbs they grew 981 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: up in, or they're gonna piety or their own thing. Right. 982 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,719 Speaker 1: The answer to the question is the food is while 983 00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: you live here, you can't get good Chinese food on 984 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,759 Speaker 1: a farm or if that's not yes, if that's if 985 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: that's or Vietnamese food or or go down the list, 986 00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,839 Speaker 1: pick your favorite cuisine. Um. But at a certain point 987 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: it's hard living in a city versus having little elbow 988 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,440 Speaker 1: space and a big sky. That's a very different lifestyle 989 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,759 Speaker 1: that that I think suits you once you work through 990 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: your twenties and theories hy hypothetically, Um, So we've been 991 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: talking a lot about the media. What do you think 992 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,839 Speaker 1: the next set of changes are that's gonna wash over 993 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,719 Speaker 1: the media landscape. I think we're going to see more 994 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: and more subscription based content, especially as millennials get older 995 00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,720 Speaker 1: and their time is worth more money. Uh. The idea 996 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,200 Speaker 1: like the reason people pay for Bloomberg terminals is because 997 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,920 Speaker 1: those the time and the information is extremely valuable to 998 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 1: those people, right, and uh, you know millennials originally pirate 999 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 1: and music. We were never downloading anything, and now we 1000 00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: pay monthly for Spotify, right because our time gets more, 1001 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,440 Speaker 1: or Amazon Prime or Apple iTunes are going down the 1002 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,000 Speaker 1: list you have. It's a there's a wealth of of everything. 1003 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,160 Speaker 1: I'm not I don't know if you've discovered this, but 1004 00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: I grew up in an era where you would actually 1005 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: get videotapes or DVDs. That's done. Everything we watch on 1006 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,320 Speaker 1: video is either Amazon Prime, Netflix, Hulu going out in 1007 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:14,359 Speaker 1: the list. Nobody is buying this sort of physical stuff anymore. Yes, 1008 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,320 Speaker 1: but I I do think you're going to see in 1009 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: the information space people realizing that free information is very expensive. 1010 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,400 Speaker 1: Free information it's worth what it costs you, Especially so 1011 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,799 Speaker 1: the Washington Post behind a paywall, The New York Times, 1012 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: the Wollster Journal has always been beyond the pay and 1013 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 1: they haven't. I was just reading about their technology. Yeah, 1014 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,320 Speaker 1: how much should we charge you? How likely are you 1015 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,719 Speaker 1: to pay? And I think that technology is only going 1016 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,320 Speaker 1: to get better, like they do with selling airline seats. 1017 00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 1: In other words, that's quite that's quite interesting tell us 1018 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,399 Speaker 1: about a time you failed and what you learned from 1019 00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,960 Speaker 1: the experience. That that's always the tough question. I feel 1020 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 1: like I've been lucky in a lot of ways. Uh My, 1021 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,000 Speaker 1: my failures have been slips rather than falls for the 1022 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: most part. And so in some ways, you know, the 1023 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,320 Speaker 1: stoic exercises to think constantly about the next like to 1024 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: to be prepared for some big setback, some big correction. 1025 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,640 Speaker 1: So I do think about that a lot. But uh, 1026 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,399 Speaker 1: you know, when I was building my marketing company, I'm 1027 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,040 Speaker 1: I was. It was going well, and then I decided 1028 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 1: I really wanted to scale it and build it in 1029 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,480 Speaker 1: a in a big way. And you know, I took 1030 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 1: on some partners and some investments and investor money and 1031 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: hired a bunch of people and and and I remember 1032 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,880 Speaker 1: my wife saying like, why are you have the perfect thing? 1033 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,880 Speaker 1: Why are you doing this? And I didn't listen to her, 1034 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,480 Speaker 1: which is always a mistake, and it went horribly wrong. 1035 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,439 Speaker 1: It sort of blew up my relationships with a bunch 1036 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,800 Speaker 1: of people. I ended up being miserable. It was it 1037 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: was working way more and making probably less money. Um, 1038 00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,800 Speaker 1: and so it was it was a good failure for me. 1039 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:48,840 Speaker 1: And that sometimes you've got to figure out what you 1040 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,000 Speaker 1: don't want to clarify what it is that you actually 1041 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,040 Speaker 1: do want. That makes that makes perfect sense. Um, tell 1042 00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,439 Speaker 1: us what you do for fun? Uh? You write an 1043 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,960 Speaker 1: awful lot. What do you you to just relax? I 1044 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,879 Speaker 1: would say when I'm not writing, that's what I'm having 1045 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,440 Speaker 1: the least amount of fun. Like, I don't have a 1046 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,279 Speaker 1: book that I'm in the middle of right now, And 1047 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,600 Speaker 1: it's weird, right I'm like, how do I fill all 1048 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,320 Speaker 1: this time? Like it's that's that's where I dedicate a 1049 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,759 Speaker 1: lot of my energy. Uh, but you know, I I'm 1050 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: a big I run and swim every day. Those are 1051 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,919 Speaker 1: my like two that's my two favorite parts of the day. 1052 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,560 Speaker 1: Or if I'm doing both, that's my favorite thing to do. 1053 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 1: And the new iPod has a waterproof feature. You can 1054 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,560 Speaker 1: actually listen to music in the pool. I reject that entirely. 1055 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 1: I think the pool is the I say the pool 1056 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,640 Speaker 1: is the last quiet place on Earth, no screens, no noise. 1057 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,720 Speaker 1: It's I love swimming precisely because it's one hour of nothing. 1058 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,840 Speaker 1: You're in the pool for a solid hour and try 1059 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,600 Speaker 1: I try forty five minutes to an hour. I tried 1060 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:51,520 Speaker 1: to do. I'm impressed. If a millennial or a budding 1061 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,240 Speaker 1: writer were to come to you and ask for a 1062 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,400 Speaker 1: career advice, what would you tell them, Well, I'd give 1063 00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,840 Speaker 1: the writer the advice that that I got, which is 1064 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:03,000 Speaker 1: that you have to go do interesting things, right, don't 1065 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: go learn how to write, well, go learn things about 1066 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,160 Speaker 1: the world that you can then communicate in the writing. 1067 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: So when you were asking me about some of my 1068 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,160 Speaker 1: controversial choices career wise, or things I've got myself in 1069 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:16,720 Speaker 1: trouble with or whatever, on the one hand, you know, 1070 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 1: those might not be great for my brand, but they've 1071 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,280 Speaker 1: also been the few I wouldn't have written my first 1072 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,520 Speaker 1: book done that, and it's given me a perspective at 1073 00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 1: an angle and a you know, material, and so a 1074 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,760 Speaker 1: writer needs material more than they need anyone can write 1075 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,440 Speaker 1: like you know. I'd read Keith Richard's biography. It was 1076 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,480 Speaker 1: written in cran you know, and was filled with misspellings 1077 00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 1: because he's lived an incredible life, right, And so a 1078 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,320 Speaker 1: writer has to go have experiences that fuel their writing. 1079 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 1: That's quite fascinating. And our final question, what is it 1080 00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: that you know about the world of media and literature 1081 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,000 Speaker 1: today that you wish you knew ten fifteen years ago 1082 00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: when you were first getting started. The incentives make it 1083 00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:03,960 Speaker 1: almost impossible for it to have the traits that we 1084 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,040 Speaker 1: want to have, right We we want media to be 1085 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:11,080 Speaker 1: empathetic and truthful and reasoned and balanced and fair and 1086 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:12,920 Speaker 1: all the all the things you would explain, You're like, 1087 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm describing what I would want to see in the 1088 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:20,120 Speaker 1: ideal media outlet are essentially economically impossible, right there an 1089 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 1: economically impossible, and then worse, there's a culture on top 1090 00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:28,440 Speaker 1: of it that that that exacerbates it, uh, rather than 1091 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,320 Speaker 1: corrects or mitigates it. Are you referring to digital, prince, electronic, 1092 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,880 Speaker 1: all the above? I would say all of the above. Like, 1093 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm biased, but I think books are one of the 1094 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,520 Speaker 1: few safer mediums right because you pay for books, they 1095 00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,200 Speaker 1: take a long time to make their design to last 1096 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,400 Speaker 1: for a long time. So the only mediums I'm I'm 1097 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm a fan of right now are books and podcasts. 1098 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,760 Speaker 1: Quite quite fascinating. We have been speaking to Ryan Holliday, 1099 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 1: author of the book Conspiracy, Peter Teel, Hulk Hogan, Glocker 1100 00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: and The Anonomy of Intrigue, as well as several other 1101 01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,720 Speaker 1: books including the Daily Stoic. If you enjoy this conversation, 1102 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:09,840 Speaker 1: be sure and look up an inch or down an inch, 1103 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,160 Speaker 1: and you could see any of the other, let's call 1104 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,919 Speaker 1: it hundred and eighties seven such prior conversations that we've had. 1105 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,680 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 1106 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,800 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I would 1107 01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,240 Speaker 1: be remiss if I did not thank my crack staff 1108 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 1: for helping to put together this podcast each week. Medina 1109 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:35,720 Speaker 1: Parwana is our producer. Slash audio engineer. Taylor Riggs is 1110 01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,760 Speaker 1: our booker Slash producer. Michael bat Nick is our head 1111 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: of research. I'm Barry rid Hults. You've been listening to 1112 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,800 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.