1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Hey guys, Singer songwriter Lindsay l back with you for 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: this week's episode of The Edge. I hope you got 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: to check out Wednesday's Velvet episode. If you didn't, go 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: back and check it out, it was an important conversation 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: that you won't want to miss. But for today's episode, 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with someone who has been a guest previously 7 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: with Kelly, but I wanted to speak with her so 8 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: that I could get a better understanding of a topic 9 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: that I personally had to grapple with not that long ago. 10 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: My guest is the incredible Julie Hamilton's. Julie is a 11 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: certified sex educator and professor. She holds a doctoral degree 12 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: in depth psychology. Her research on jealousy as experienced in 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: polyamorous individuals takes a closer look at how people in 14 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: any type of relationship can change the way jealousy works 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: and doesn't work for them. She also gave a wonderful 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: ted X talk on concusion, which is the opposite the 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: opposite of jealousy, that featured all of her amazing research. 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to speak with Jolie because of a personal 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: experience I had with a guy I who wanted to 20 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: have an open relationship and that just wasn't for me. 21 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: So I cast no judgment whatsoever, but I I just 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: knew it wasn't gonna work for me in my life. 23 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: I am so curious though, to understand from a professional 24 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: point of view how it can work for others, and 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: I hope that Julie can help me see that point 26 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: of view as well as help all of us understand it. 27 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: More So, let me officially welcome psychologist, relationship coach, public speaker, professor, 28 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: founder of project relationship. What can she not do? You, guys, 29 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: the brilliant Julie Hamilton's Hi Jolie, Hi Lindsay, thank you 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: so much for having me and for making me blush 31 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: so early in the morning. It is absolutely my pleasure. 32 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: You know as I as I I of course heard 33 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: your episode that you did with Kelly Um a little 34 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: while ago, but I, as I was researching about you, 35 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: you were just so brilliant. My goodness, I have to 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: jump right into it, though. Can you explain consensual non 37 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: monogamy and how how it works? Sure? So, consensual non 38 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: monogamy is a really big umbrella term. We can think 39 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: of it as the opposite of cheating in many ways, 40 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: because what we're talking about is having multiple romantic or 41 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: sexual or intimate partners, but there are so many ways 42 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: to do it that, in fact, consensual non monogamy just 43 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: centers on one thing. There's multiplicity, but there's consent on 44 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: the part of all parties, so there can't be any sneaking, cheating, hiding, 45 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: lying going on in order for it to fall under 46 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: this CNM label. So that's how it's placed oppositionally to cheating, 47 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: in which so cheating can happen where there's multiplicity. The 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: cheating can happen because you're lying about anything. So in 49 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: other words, you could have an ostensibly open relationship but 50 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: still be lying and hiding about particular activities you're doing 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: that are outside of your boundaries or whatever, and that 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: still falls into the category of cheating, so can Central 53 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: non monogamy is about informed consent on the part of 54 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: everyone involved in these relationships. Okay, this is so fascinating 55 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: to me. I just I want to ask you a 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: million questions, Um, when and how did you realize that 57 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: this was something you needed? Oh? Boy, so I had 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: one of those fall off a cliff moments, Um, I 59 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: have fallen in love with many people. During the course 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: of my first marriage, I I was, you know, married 61 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: to my high school sweetheart. UM. I got married when 62 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: I was twenty, had my babies, and in my twenties, 63 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: and I was from the outside very monogamous, and actually, 64 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: inside my head, I was very monogamous because I thought 65 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: about monogamy being about how I acted. But I felt 66 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: in love like I I would develop these deep emotional, 67 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: intimate connections with people, typically women, UM, and that felt 68 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: normal to me. I never let any physical boundaries be crossed, 69 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: so I was within the scope of my relationship agreements. 70 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: And my first husband knew that like I would talk 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: about how I would have these deep feelings, and so 72 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, one day, I found myself on 73 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: a dance floor having that exact same feeling for a guy. 74 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: I was so naive that I jumped into the shower 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: with my husband and I was like, oh my god, 76 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm so in love with him. Yeah, that did not 77 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: land well. Did not think that through. I was so 78 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 1: naive as to think that this wouldn't be any different 79 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: from the times I'd had big feelings for other people. 80 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: But in the relationship that we had, he was just 81 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: not prepared for the competitive feelings that came up for 82 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: him when all of a sudden it was a guy 83 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: who was having these feelings about So I had to 84 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: grapple with what what what is it actually going on? 85 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: What does it mean to be in love with two 86 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: people at the same time? What does that say about me? 87 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: What's happening for me? And it was so hard because 88 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: I didn't have any vocabulary. All I knew was that 89 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: I felt more love that that was it. And it 90 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: was two thousand nine, so you know, there is really 91 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: just a couple of resources out there. Um. There was 92 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: Ethical Slut, which is, you know, a classic at this 93 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: point and has three additions, But there wasn't a common 94 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: narrative about what it meant to have multiple partners. There weren't, 95 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: you know. All we had was terrible love triangles that 96 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: were depicted in everything from soap operas to Greek mythology 97 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: to every Danielle Steel novel ever written. You know, there 98 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a good model for me to look at. So 99 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: I ruined everything. I threw my life into the wood 100 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: chipper because I just naively thought this will be fine. 101 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: I'll just talk about it all and if I'm honest, 102 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: what could really go wrong? Everything totally? So after after 103 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: your first marriage, um, I'm sure you were just trying 104 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: to figure things out, Like at that time, did you 105 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: know that this type of relationship even existed or it 106 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: was there like a template in your mind of Okay, 107 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: maybe I can do this, or did somebody bring it 108 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: up to you, Like where did you first learn about 109 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that there's another way to do this. Oh, 110 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: that's such a good point. So I think of polyamory, 111 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: or you know, polyamory just means many loves and that's 112 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: just one kind of consensual no monogamy. Um. I think 113 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: of it as the un unknowable thing. Like, once you 114 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: know that some people out there are having multiple loving 115 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: relationships or multiple sexual relationships at the same time and 116 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: doing it well, it is really hard to put all 117 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: those snakes back in the peanut brittle can. So once 118 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: I was like I had had these feelings and I said, wow, 119 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm having these feelings. I turned and looked, 120 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: and in fact, there were quite a few people in 121 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: my life who had things to say about this. Um. 122 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: I heard a lot of that never works, and I'm like, well, 123 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: what do you mean and behind that that never works 124 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: was a story of how someone had tried to have 125 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: multiple loving relationships and had experienced pain. But I was 126 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: also watching my friends all around me, who were clear swinging. 127 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: They were clearly exchanging partners. I hadn't noticed until this point, 128 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: but when I turned and looked, there they all were. 129 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: So now I had a bunch of different images, but 130 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: I didn't have clarity. When I gained clarity was when UM, 131 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: the person I had fallen in love with. UM, he 132 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: and his wife had been in an open relationship and 133 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: they were like, this is fine, this is just more love. 134 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: We believe in community. Let's go for it. How bad 135 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 1: can it be? And so I moved in with them, 136 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: and you know, so it was just out of the blue, 137 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: you just moved in. I well, my marriage ended. It 138 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: was full stop speeding train. I had four biological children 139 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: at that point, and I was in the middle of 140 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: running three different businesses. Everything blew up. And part of 141 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: how it blew up was I couldn't I didn't have 142 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: access to my house anymore. So, yeah, and I didn't 143 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: have anywhere to go. And these were some of my 144 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: closest friends, and you know, we all jumped off a 145 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: cliff together. We didn't know what we were doing. Even 146 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: though they had a little bit more experience than I did, 147 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: we didn't know what we were doing and we didn't 148 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: have the guides and resources that I wish we had had. 149 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: As part of why I do the work I do 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: now is because I can see that train wreck coming 151 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: and I can also point people in the right direction 152 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: for like, oh, hey, there are healthier and less healthy 153 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: ways to go about this, and just jumping off the 154 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: edge of a cliff together and saying love will help 155 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: us find the way. Yeah, I mean, be realistic. That's 156 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: just not going to be enough. You also need conversations, 157 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: you need vocabulary that you share, and most of all, 158 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: you need to all be willing to be in the 159 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: discomfort of figuring out a whole new relationship paradigm. Absolutely absolutely, Okay. 160 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: So when I was, um, you know, in my own situation, 161 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: and I was dating a guy and he, you know, 162 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: we got to that point in our relationship where he 163 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: essentially wanted an open dynamic, and he was telling me 164 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: about a bunch of his friends who were in open 165 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: relationships and they would have a primary partner and then 166 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: they had this agreement that obviously everything communication was completely open. UM. 167 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: Do you have a primary partner and and then have 168 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: a you know, open communication with that person or UM 169 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: is polyamory a little bit different. So there are lots 170 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: of ways to do this UM, but all of them 171 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: do rely on open communication. And really, even even when 172 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: people have don't ask, don't tell policies or the hundred 173 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: mile policy, like I don't want to know about what 174 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: you do when your hundred miles away from me. Even there, 175 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: there are conversations that have to happen about safer sex, 176 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: about spending money, you know, So there are a lot 177 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: of things to get into even if you're not sharing 178 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: all the juicy details. I happen to be in a 179 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: relationship where I have an anchor partner or a nesting partner. 180 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: He is the person who I raised my children with. UM. 181 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: We share finances, we keep we keep our central base here, 182 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: and we actually made the conscious decision to do that 183 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: because we were raising seven children together. So we decided, okay, 184 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: we need to get really clear about this being our 185 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: our home base and our commitment until the kids are 186 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: all grown. We're doing this together UM. And we made 187 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: that commitment knowing that that meant that there was an 188 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: inherent hierarchy of needs. There just would be like so 189 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: other partners that I have, I can have emotionally the 190 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: same level of connection to them, and he as well 191 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: can have emotionally and sexually the same levels of connection. 192 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: But let's face it, when we're sharing finances and a house, 193 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: there are just differences, like stuff is gonna come up. 194 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: That's where the conversations get really nuanced, like what do 195 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: you share? And the word primary it ticks some people 196 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: off personally, I think whatever word helps you understand what 197 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: you're doing and communicate it clearly to the other people 198 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: you're relating, to go with that, like create shared meaning 199 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: with your vocabulary, because that's how that makes so much sense. 200 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: And especially um you know, you're of course the expert 201 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: on this, but I would imagine when there are kids 202 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: and children involved, having that inherent hierarchy is probably very important, 203 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: just to have some sort of foundation for the children 204 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: in the container of the relationship. Yeah. Well, you know, 205 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: it's interesting because people ask about the kids all the time, 206 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: and my kids are now fourteen to twenty two, so 207 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: old enough to talk to me about how these last 208 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: twelve years have gone, and there is I believe a 209 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: real need to to be clear with yourself about where 210 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: your priorities are. And a lot of us aren't. We 211 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: rely on the you know, boilerplate script of how a 212 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: family looks to say, oh, I have to do it 213 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: that way, that's the right way. I actually think that 214 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: there could be a lot of ways to very generatively 215 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: and and supportively raised children that don't fit that description. 216 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: But the trick is to get clear on what you're doing. 217 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: For instance, I could imagine having raised my kids on 218 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: my own as uh, you know, as an independent human 219 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: who had multiple partners coming and going from this house, 220 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: and have done that in a really healthy way. Instead, 221 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: I have a marriage that from the outside and we are, 222 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: we're actually legally married. We didn't know whether we do it, 223 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: but we did. Um. Yeah, we we have this relationship 224 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: where the kids in fact really feel us in that 225 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: sort of traditional sense, and from the outside we look 226 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: very traditional. That gives us passing privilege. From the outside. 227 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: I don't have to be out as Polly like I 228 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: don't I am. Anybody. Everybody knows. Um, when you wear 229 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: it on your shirt, you know, people know. But it's 230 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: it's a good it's a good sign. Yes it is. 231 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: But then when I asked the kids how they feel 232 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: about it, Um, the our experience has been that it hasn't. 233 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: It's been more about how happy, settled and psychologically capable 234 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: each of their parents has been all along. That's far 235 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: more you know, stabilizing than any particular way of raising them. 236 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: That's incredible. And you know one of my favorite things, um, 237 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: you know that I've I've heard Glenn and Doyle and 238 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: a bunch of people say, but I was just finishing 239 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: reading your book for the second time, and and she said, 240 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: I wanted my kids to see me being happy and 241 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: fully claiming everything in my life and doing what I 242 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: want to be doing. And that is empowering to your children. 243 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: If they can see you being like, this is who 244 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: I am, and this is me and this is the 245 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: way I want to live my life like, that is 246 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: one of the most incredible messages you can send to 247 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: your kids. Um. So I just am bowing down to 248 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: you in in that one, in a full place of 249 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: empowerment in that message you're sending to them. How much 250 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: do they know about it? Though? Do you do you share? Like? 251 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: Where is that line for you? With your own children. UM, 252 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: the great question because people always want to know, and 253 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: they're inhesitant to ask because it's very correl But I'm 254 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: a public figure and I have I have the privilege 255 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: of feeling very safe sharing my story. So I'm an example. 256 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm not the right way to do it, but I 257 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: think it's an example of what is possible. UM. What 258 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: has happened in our house is we never hid this 259 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: from them. UM. So they were between the ages of 260 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: UM two and ten when when I made this transition 261 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: into a fully polyamorous life, and it was never hidden 262 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: from them. However, they didn't really understand it, because kids won't. 263 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: They won't take in information that's like too much for them. 264 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: So in fact, there was sort of a new coming 265 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: out as each of them got it at a different age. 266 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: As each of them understood like, oh, Mom's going on 267 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: a date. Oh a date. Mom's not just going out 268 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: with that person. Oh, she's on a date, And then 269 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: there'd be this second part of them that would realize, oh, 270 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: and what do I care? What's the difference between when 271 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: she's going out with a friend or she's on a date, Like, really, practically, 272 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: what's the difference. And that has happened between the ages 273 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: of about twelve and fifteen, depending on the kid, like 274 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: their their own recognition, and um, we just talked about 275 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: it openly. It has made it very easy to talk 276 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:39,119 Speaker 1: about UM dating relationships, about safer sex agreements, about relationship agreements. 277 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: UM it's much easier to talk about because they see 278 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: my husband and I negotiating, like not we don't fight 279 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: about it in front of them, but if there's a question, 280 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm not afraid to just say, like, hey, are we 281 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: in alignment with our agreements here and do a check 282 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: in right there mid kitchen. So they've really had a 283 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: lot of hands on experience watching people work through complicated relationships, 284 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: and all relationships are complicated. You had and it's gracious. Yes, 285 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: I commend you so much. I mean, even in my 286 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: own relationship with my parents, there's there's a part of 287 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: me that like it is, you know, wish wishes I 288 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: had that level of transparency with my parents growing up. Um, 289 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, I was raped as a little girl, and 290 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: I think most of it was on me, but I 291 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: couldn't tell my parents for a long long time just 292 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: because it was like, I don't know, I guess we 293 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: didn't really talk about those things so much growing up 294 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: where I didn't feel like those topics were things I 295 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: could bring up. So I commend you as a mother 296 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: just having that open dialogue, and I think that that's 297 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: a wonderful thing as well to do as a parent. Um. 298 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: So are all of your kids from the same father. 299 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: And as a second question to that question, if there 300 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: are people in a polyamist relationship that have kids from 301 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: different parents, what is your advice for handling some of 302 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: those dichotomies and situations? Big stuff, big stuff. Okay, First, 303 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: I want to just pause and say your courage and 304 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: just owning what happened when you were a child. I 305 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: bow to that the courage of just saying the word 306 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: rape publicly gives me such hope for what the next 307 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: generation will face in in sexual justice. And I'm so 308 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: proud of you. So thanks, You're so sweet. Thank you. 309 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: And then to address your questions, UM, I have biological 310 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: children who passed through my body. I have four of them, 311 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: and then I have stepchildren. UM. And I actually have 312 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: known my partner, my current partner, my whole life. He 313 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: was the best friend of my cousin growing up. So 314 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: I've known in my whole life, and so I have 315 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: been present in my stepchildren's lives since they were born. 316 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: So we have a very cohesive and different sort of 317 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: sense of what most people would call a blended family. 318 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't feel blended. It just feels like family over here. Um. 319 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: And what happened for me was the hardest part was 320 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: not having labels, not knowing what we were doing. And 321 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: so if I were to say, how can we do 322 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: this better? How can I how could I help people 323 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: build on the pain that I've experienced, I would say, 324 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: get clear with yourself about what kind of family system 325 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: you're building and let people have roles, let people feel it. 326 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: So when I first was figuring out how to be 327 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: a step parent, I wasn't a step parent yet. I 328 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: wasn't married because the law wouldn't have allowed me to 329 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: get married to their their parents. Um, but I lived 330 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: in their house. What does that mean? What's my role? 331 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: What word did they get to call me? Those things 332 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: all would have really helped reduce the fear intention that 333 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: was clearly in the room. And by missing that opportunity, 334 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: we really we caused ourselves a lot of heartache over 335 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: a much longer period of time. Um, you know, one 336 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: of my step children really still has never come along. 337 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: He's not a fan of mine. UM and the other 338 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: two are my best buds. They are right up, you know, 339 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: like close as can be. UM and I feel no 340 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: difference between our relationship and my biological children. And where 341 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: there is a difference, it's largely about how did we 342 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: talk about this. Did it feel safe for him? And 343 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it did. I'm not sure he ever 344 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 1: got what he needed. And this is because we were 345 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: stumbling along the way too, And it's it is hard. 346 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: It's hard to own that and to say, yeah, sometimes 347 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: we hurt the people we love the most by following 348 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: the path we feel called to follow. Once I knew 349 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: I was in love with someone, I still had control 350 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: over my actions, and so I tried to take careful ones. 351 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that they all worked. That's the 352 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: reality of being alive. It's hard to admit. But if 353 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: I were to say, oh, yeah, it's all just fine, 354 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: just do just you know, follow your heart, follow the love, 355 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: and it will all be fine. Change your definition of 356 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: what fine is. What does it mean for this thing 357 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: to work? What does it mean for you to create 358 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: a new family? What does it mean for you to 359 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: really embrace the principles of consensual relating, like are you 360 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: ready for those conversations and if you're not, let's practice them. 361 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: Let's practice them starting today. Absolutely. I mean I think 362 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: getting clear with those expectations. I mean, there are all 363 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: forms of a modern family, and you know, expectations without 364 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: communication creates frustration. I think, yeah, I think they getting 365 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: clear with those things is such. Um is step one. 366 00:20:54,560 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: I guess essentially, Um, Okay, I have to ask you 367 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: because I think this was my pitfall. I think I'm 368 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: so selfish when it comes to having that one partner 369 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: and knowing that I am that one partner's partner, and 370 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: that when they wake up in the morning or when 371 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: they go to bed at night, that that they want 372 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: to text me even if we're not together or call 373 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: me or whatever it is. And I'm not really a 374 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: jealous person, like I don't get jealous, but almost like 375 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: a lot of things in life. But I think that 376 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: if I'm not dating anybody right now, I'm single. But 377 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: if I was dating somebody and they were, you know, 378 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: doing things with another woman, I think I would turn 379 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: into a jealous person. I really do. I think I 380 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: would honestly turn into just a form of myself that 381 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: I don't want to see. And so, like your nesting partner, 382 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: he ever feel jealous? Do you guys ever have those conversations? 383 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: Where are the the rules and boundary line for for 384 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: you guys? And you don't need to go into detail. 385 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: I know this is the super super personal question. It's 386 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 1: a great question though, and I'm happy to answer it 387 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: because what you're naming. First off, you're you are naming 388 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: the experience of jealousy. When you say I'm not a 389 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: jealous person, but I want these things. It's it's okay 390 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: to be jealous. Jealousy has a purpose. That's fine, and 391 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: it's okay to understand what I hear you doing so 392 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: proudly and bravely. And I love this is saying I 393 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: want my partner to have their focus on me, and 394 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: but I feel so selfish because most of my life 395 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: I'm like, I am loving, I love every human I 396 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: am so I just want to help everybody. And then 397 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, but when it comes to my boyfriend or whatever, 398 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: I am not generous, and I'm like, how can you 399 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: be so different? Yeah? So clarity around that is everything. 400 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: There is jealousy serves a purpose. It reminds us what 401 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: we care about. It lets us know what we want 402 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: to aim our attention at, and it alerts us to 403 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: threats of interruptions to that love bond. But not every 404 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: interaction your boyfriend has is a threat to that love bond. 405 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: So where jealousy starts to become problematic is when people 406 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: can't they don't feel trust in that bond that they have, 407 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: in that exclusivity that they have going on. When I 408 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: think about exclusivity in relationships, I don't think, oh, that's 409 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: so much less. I don't know generous or evolved. No, 410 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: hell no, just no. There There is no good or 411 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: bad here. There are just different ways of living our lives. 412 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: And wanting a person's focus is very natural, normal, typical. Sure, 413 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: it's evolutionary. Psychology tells us that that's hardwired into us. Right, 414 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: we can spot jealousy at six months old. We know 415 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: that it exists and cool, so just know it now. 416 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: On the other hand, something I get to practice that 417 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: you might not have as much practice with is relating 418 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: to my partner and recognizing that I I actually don't 419 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: want his attention on me one percent of the time. 420 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: If you want your partner's attention on them one percent 421 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: of the time, Like, that's that's a lot. And it's like, 422 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: we can't do that exactly right, like, and we share 423 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: We share love in lots of ways. We share love 424 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: in friendships, we share love in our amongst our children, 425 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: we share love amongst even even just the world humanity. 426 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: When I practice letting myself relax around what his relationship 427 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: is with someone else, it's just I just don't bottom line, 428 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to be in charge of where my 429 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: husband puts his penis. I just don't want to be 430 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: in charge of that. I do want to have conversations 431 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: about how we respect each other in this way, like 432 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: like in other words, how does he protect me from infections? 433 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 1: How do I when I go out with people? How 434 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: do I make sure that I don't overextend so much 435 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: that there's nothing left to give? So there are are 436 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: emotional and physical components to this, but monogamy writes a 437 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: check that it can't actually cash. Monogamy tends to have 438 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: us think that if we promise exclusivity, we will not 439 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: ever have to feel jealous and will never have to 440 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: be abandoned. But that's clearly not what we see going on, 441 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: Like we see, um the the where that doesn't work. Um, 442 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: people get left every day, People experience cheating every day, 443 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: And so consensual non monogamy introduces the idea that it 444 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: we could have conversations about what we want with others, 445 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: and those conversations are going to expose stuff, They're going 446 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: to expose parts of us. Well, i'm by my my 447 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: partner is too, so we're both sis gender people who 448 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: are bisexual. And so there's that really obvious way like, oh, 449 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: what if I want to have a relationship with a 450 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: woman and he can't give that to me, you know, 451 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: like we could go really really prototypical here. What I 452 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: found over the years is that's really not the thing. 453 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: The thing is I like to have multiple loving relationships. 454 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: I feel nourished that way. I feel safe and cared for, 455 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm being honored as a person. 456 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: And that leaves me in a space to need to 457 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: practice allowing allowing him to have that space too, not 458 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: not just to get sexual satisfaction, but too to really 459 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: experience relationship with others and all of them see stuff 460 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: that comes along with that, and yeah, we both absolutely 461 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: get jealous still absolutely. Anybody who tells you they never 462 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: experienced jealousy, I'm My first suspicion is, do you really 463 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: understand what jealousy is for you? Have you really explored it? 464 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: Or have you simply, you know, pushed that word away 465 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: and you use a bunch of other words to describe it, 466 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: because jealous comes wrapped in shame, yes, and shame is 467 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,959 Speaker 1: so heavy. So do you with your nesting partner, do 468 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: you just have such amazing open communication where you bring 469 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: up everything if you are feeling jealous It's pretty It 470 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: is pretty awesome. We I mean, we went to hell 471 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: and back. I literally helen back. I feel like I 472 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: took an underworld journey in order to get here. But 473 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: we talk. We actually have a podcast and we talk 474 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: openly about our feelings on the podcast because I think 475 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: most people haven't heard people be this raw with each other, 476 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: that's honest about like, oh you're having that feeling or 477 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: this feeling. We it took a long time to get there, 478 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: but yeah, we do. We name jealousy. The very first 479 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: thing we do when jealousy pops up is we name it. 480 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: We notice it, and we name it, and we just 481 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: get into conversation about what it is that we actually want, 482 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: because often what we do when jealousy pops up is 483 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: we we say, okay, I need you to change your 484 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: behavior right away so that I will feel different. Do 485 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: not talk to that person, do not text people of 486 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: this gender, do not go to these places. Whatever it is, okay, 487 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: But none of that really protects us because then we're 488 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 1: on that watchful mindful right, like we have that watcher 489 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: in the back of our mind scanning for where those 490 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: things might happen. I prefer to just talk about it 491 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: when it comes up, and it I still get into tizzy. 492 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: Is about a month ago I had a full on tizzy. 493 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: He went on a date. It happened to set me off. 494 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: I yep, about two hours spinning around, applied all my tools, 495 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: got my self recentered. It all went great, Everything went great. Um, 496 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: but it's because we had a process in place for 497 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: dealing with it. I am just wowed by you, Julie. 498 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: Of course, the podcast you're talking about is called Project Relationship, right, yeah, yeah, 499 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: it is fascinating. UM. Please go check that out, Julie. 500 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: I would just sit with you for hours because your 501 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: brain just fascinates me. And um, I think if if 502 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: people are listening and they can take one thing from 503 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: all of this, it's really figure out what you want 504 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: and what you are calling in and what are those 505 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: things that makes you happy and own those things. And 506 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think we always can find deeper ways 507 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: of like communicating those things openly to the people that 508 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: we love in our life. But if you don't even 509 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: know what it is you want, you don't even know 510 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: what to communicate, yes, and you naming Hey, this wouldn't 511 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: work for me, so you end We end this relationship 512 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: because an open relating style doesn't work for me. Awesome. 513 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: Think how much time you just saved for both of you. 514 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: That's great. Know what you want and if you decide 515 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: to go into an exploration, think of it that way. 516 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: It's an exploration. This isn't an all or nothing thing. 517 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: It's not monogamy versus polymory. That's a war I'm not 518 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,479 Speaker 1: interested in. It's just an exploration about what works for 519 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: you exactly. So if if there's someone out there that 520 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: is trying to figure things out and um, you know, 521 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: not knowing where to even start, would that be step 522 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: number one? Is the exploration of it? Oh, totally figuring 523 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: out what the words are that we used to even 524 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: describe these things, and doing some some Let yourself marinate 525 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: in some stories of of consensual non monogamy, you know, 526 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: listen to some podcasts. Mind is a good one, but 527 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: there are others. There are lots of great ones making 528 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: polymory work multiamory. There are some great ones. Let yourself 529 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: hear the stories of how other people do this and 530 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: then imagine most a consensual non monogamy is about. And 531 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: I work with people to create creative nonmonogamy agreements too, 532 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: because some people want to be monogamous but want a 533 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: little bit more juice, getting your imagination going. Letting yourself 534 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: imagine into what what could my relationship be if it 535 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: weren't exactly what I was handed from society and it 536 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: were just created by me and my partner. M hm, 537 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: so beautiful. Well, Julie, thank you so much for taking 538 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: the time out of your day to be with us today. 539 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: Everybody please go check out her podcast project relationship Um. 540 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: She is just a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so 541 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: so so much, Julie, Thank you for having me, lindsay, 542 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: it was great to talk to you. As Kelly always says, 543 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: everyone has a little bit of velvet and also a 544 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: little bit of edge. And it's Kellyanship like to say, 545 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: remember when you're living in the edge, always remember to 546 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: act casual. See you guys next time.