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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a

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Speaker 2: podcast that is it'll be interested to see how the

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Speaker 2: audience reacts to this one talking about some of the

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Speaker 2: most obscure, frustrating Internet arcana that has ever occurred and

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Speaker 2: recently led to the deaths of like six people. My

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Speaker 2: guest today as in last episode, David Borie, David, Hey,

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Speaker 2: you doing man, I'm doing great.

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Speaker 3: I really can't wait to see where this goes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel.

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Speaker 3: Like anything could happen at this point.

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Speaker 2: It is going to It is going to a lot

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Speaker 2: of frustrating things are going to happen. So we'd kind

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Speaker 2: of left off by setting up the rationalists where they

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Speaker 2: came from, some of the different strains of thought and

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Speaker 2: beliefs that come out of their weird thought experiments. And

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Speaker 2: now we are talking about a person who falls into

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Speaker 2: this movement fairly early on and is going to be

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Speaker 2: the leader of this quote unquote group, the Zizians, who

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Speaker 2: were responsible for these murders that just happened. Ziz Lesota

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Speaker 2: was born in nineteen ninety or nineteen ninety one. I

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Speaker 2: don't have an exact birth date. She's known to be

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Speaker 2: thirty four years old as of twenty twenty five, so

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Speaker 2: somewhere in that field. She was born in Fairbanks, Alaska,

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Speaker 2: and grew up there as her father worked for the

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Speaker 2: University of Alaska as an AI researcher. We know very

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Speaker 2: little of the specifics of her childhood or upbringing, but

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Speaker 2: in more than one hundred thousand words of blog posts,

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Speaker 2: she did make some references to her early years. She

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Speaker 2: claims to have been talented in engineering and computer science

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Speaker 2: from a young age, and there's no real reason to

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Speaker 2: doubt this. The best single article on all of this

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Speaker 2: is a piece and Wired by Evan Ratliffe. He found

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Speaker 2: a two thousand and four teen blog post by Ziz

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Speaker 2: where she wrote, my friends and family, even if they

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Speaker 2: think I'm weird, don't really seem to be bothered by

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Speaker 2: the fact that I'm weird. But one thing I can

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Speaker 2: tell you is that I used to deemphasize my weirdness

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Speaker 2: around them, and then I stopped and found that being

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Speaker 2: unapologetically weird is a lot more fun.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: It's important you know. Ziz is not the name this

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Speaker 2: person is born under. She's a trans woman, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm like using the name that she adopts later but

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Speaker 2: she is not transitioned at this point like this, This

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Speaker 2: is when she's a kid, right, and she's not going

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Speaker 2: to transition until fairly late in the story after coming

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Speaker 2: to San Francisco. So you just keep that in mind

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Speaker 2: as this is going on here. Hey, everyone, Robert here,

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Speaker 2: just a little additional context, as best as I think

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Speaker 2: anyone can tell. If you're curious about where the name

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Speaker 2: Ziz came from, there's another piece of serial released online

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Speaker 2: fiction that's not like a rationalist story, but it's very

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Speaker 2: popular with rationalists. It's called Worm. Ziz is a character

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Speaker 2: in that that's effectively like an angel like being who

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Speaker 2: can like manipulate the future, usually in order to do

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Speaker 2: very bad things. Anyway, that's where the name comes from.

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Speaker 2: So smart kid, really good with computers, kind of weird

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Speaker 2: and embraces being unapologetically weird at a certain point in

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Speaker 2: her childhood. Hey, everybody, Robert here. Did not have this

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Speaker 2: piece of information when I first put the episode together,

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Speaker 2: but I came across a quote in an article from

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Speaker 2: the Boston Globe that provides additional context on Zizz's childhood quote.

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Speaker 2: In middle school, the teen was among a group of

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Speaker 2: students who managed to infiltrate the school district's payroll system

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Speaker 2: and award huge paychecks to teachers they admired while slashing

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Speaker 2: the salaries of those they despised. According to one teacher, Zizz,

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Speaker 2: the teacher said, struggled to regulate strong emotions, often erupting

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Speaker 2: in tantrums. I wish I'd had this when Dave it

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Speaker 2: was on, but definitely sets up some of the things

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Speaker 2: that are coming. She goes to the U of Alaska

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Speaker 2: for her undergraduate degree in computer engineering in February of

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Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, which is when Elisia Jedkowski started

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Speaker 2: Less Wrong. Ziz starts kind of getting drawn into some

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Speaker 2: of the people who are around this growing subculture, right,

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Speaker 2: and she's drawn in initially by veganism. So Ziz becomes

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Speaker 2: a vegan at a fairly young age. Her family are

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Speaker 2: not vegans, and she's obsessed with the concept of animal sentience,

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Speaker 2: right of the fact that like animals are thinking and

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Speaker 2: feeling beings just like human beings. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: this is based in her interest in kind of foundational rationalist.

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Speaker 2: A lot of this is based in her interest of

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Speaker 2: a foundational rationalist and EA figure a guy named Brian

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Speaker 2: Thomasik Brian is a writer and a software engineer as

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Speaker 2: well as an animal rights activists and as a thinker.

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Speaker 2: He's what you'd call a long termist, right, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, pretty tied to the EA guys. These are

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Speaker 2: all the same people using kind of different words to

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Speaker 2: describe the aspects of what they believe. His organization is

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Speaker 2: the Center on Long Term Risk, which is a think

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Speaker 2: tank he establishes that's at the ground floor of these

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Speaker 2: effective altruism discussions, and the goal for the Center of

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Speaker 2: Long Term Risk is to find ways to reduce suffering

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Speaker 2: on a long timeline. Thomasik is obsessed with the concept

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Speaker 2: of suffering and specifically obsessed with conceps. Suffering is a

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Speaker 2: mathematical concept. So when I say to you, I want

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Speaker 2: to end suffering, you probably think, like, oh, you want

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Speaker 2: to like, you know, go help people who don't have

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Speaker 2: access to clean water, or like who have like worms

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Speaker 2: and stuff that they're dealing with, have access to medicine.

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Speaker 2: That's what normal people think of, right, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: try to improve access to medical care that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Saith thinks of suffering as like a mass, like

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Speaker 2: an aggregate mass that he wants to reduce in the

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Speaker 2: long term through actions right. It's a numbers game to him,

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Speaker 2: in other words, and his idea of ultimate good is

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Speaker 2: to reduce and end the suffering of sentient life. Critical

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Speaker 2: to his belief system and the one that Ziz starts

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Speaker 2: to develop, is the growing understanding that sentience is much

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Speaker 2: more common than many people had previously assumed. Part of

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Speaker 2: this comes from long standing debates with their origins in

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Speaker 2: Christian doctrine as to whether or not animals have souls

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Speaker 2: or basically machines with meat right that don't feel anything right.

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Speaker 2: There's still a lot of Christian evangelicals who feel that

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Speaker 2: way today about like at least the animals we eat,

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Speaker 2: you know, like, well they don't really think it's fine.

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Speaker 2: God gave them to us. We can do whatever we

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Speaker 2: want to them.

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Speaker 3: Here we eat and.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, this is an extremely common way for

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Speaker 2: that people in Japan feel about like fish, even whales

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Speaker 2: and dolphins, like the much more intelligent they're not fish,

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Speaker 2: but like the much more intelligent ocean going creatures is

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Speaker 2: like they're fish. They don't think you do whatever to them,

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Speaker 2: you know. This is a reason for a lot of

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Speaker 2: like the really fucked up stuff with like whaling fleets

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Speaker 2: in that part of the world. So this is a

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Speaker 2: thing all over the planet. People are very good at

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Speaker 2: deciding certain things we want to eat. Are our machines

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Speaker 2: that don't feel anything, you know, it's just much more

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Speaker 2: comfortable that way. Now, this is obviously like you go

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Speaker 2: into like pagan The Pagans would have been like, what

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Speaker 2: do you mean animals don't think or have souls? Animals

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Speaker 2: like animals think, you know, like they're they're they're like,

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Speaker 2: you're telling me, like my horse that I love it

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Speaker 2: doesn't think, you know, that's nonsense. But it's this thing

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Speaker 2: that in like early modernity especially gets more common. But

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Speaker 2: they're also this is when we start to have debates

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Speaker 2: about like what is sentience and what is thinking? And

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Speaker 2: a lot of them are centered around trying to answer,

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Speaker 2: like our animals sentient And the initial definition of sentience

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Speaker 2: that most of these people are using is can it reason?

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Speaker 2: Can it speak? If we can't prove that like a

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Speaker 2: dog or a cow can reason, and if it can't

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Speaker 2: speak to us, right, then it's not sentient. That's how

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Speaker 2: a lot of people feel. It's an English philosopher named

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Speaker 2: Jeremy Bentham, who first argues, I think that what matters

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Speaker 2: isn't can it reason or can it speak? But can

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Speaker 2: it suffer? Because a machine can't suffer. If these are

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Speaker 2: machines with meat, they can't suffer. If these can suffer,

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Speaker 2: they're not machine with meat, right, And this is the

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Speaker 2: kind of thing how we define sentience is a moving thing.

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Speaker 2: Like you can find different definitions of it. But the

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Speaker 2: last couple of decades, in particular of actually very good

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Speaker 2: data has made it clear. I think inarguably that basically

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Speaker 2: every living thing on this planet has a degree of

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Speaker 2: what you would call sentience if you are described being

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Speaker 2: sentienced the way it generally is now, which is a

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Speaker 2: creature has the capacity for subjective experience with a positive

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Speaker 2: or negative negative valence i e. Can feel pain or pleasure,

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Speaker 2: and also is it can feel it as an individual right,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't mean, you know, sometimes people use the term

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Speaker 2: effective sentience to refer to this, to differentiate it from

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Speaker 2: like being able to reason and make moral decisions. You know,

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Speaker 2: for example, ants I don't think can make moral decisions,

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Speaker 2: you know, in any way that we would recognize that

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Speaker 2: they certainly don't think about stuff that way. But twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five, research published by doctor Vulker Nehring found evidence

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Speaker 2: that ants are capable of remembering for long periods of

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Speaker 2: time violent encounters they have with other individual ants and

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Speaker 2: holding grudges against those ants. Right, just like us. They're

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Speaker 2: just like us. And there's strong evidence that ants do

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Speaker 2: feel pain. Right, We're We're not pretty sure of that.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, again this is an argument that a

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Speaker 2: number of researchers in this space will make. Sentience is

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Speaker 2: probably some kind of something like this. Kind of sentience,

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Speaker 2: the ability to have subjective positive and negative experiences is

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Speaker 2: universal to living things, or very close to it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting body of research, but there's as it's

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Speaker 2: fairly solid at this point. And again I say this

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Speaker 2: as somebody who like hunts and raises livestock. I don't

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Speaker 2: think there's any any solid reason to disagree with this.

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Speaker 2: So you can see there's a basis to a lot

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Speaker 2: of what Thomisik is saying, right, which is that you

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Speaker 2: should if you're what matters is reducing the overall amount

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Speaker 2: of suffering in the world, and if you're looking at

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Speaker 2: suffering as a mass, if you're just adding up all

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Speaker 2: of the bad things experienced by all of the living things.

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Speaker 2: Animal suffering is a lot of the suffering. So if

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Speaker 2: our goal is to reduce suffering, animal welfare is hugely

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Speaker 2: importantly right.

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Speaker 3: It's a great place to start.

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Speaker 2: Great, fine enough, you know, not a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a weird way to phrase it, but fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: H So here's the way. Problem though, Thomisik, like all

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Speaker 2: these guys, spends too much time. None of them can

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Speaker 2: be like, hey, had a good thought, We're done, setting

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Speaker 2: that thought down, moving on. So he keeps thinking about

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Speaker 2: shit like this, and it leads him to some very

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Speaker 2: irrational takes. For example, in twenty fourteen, Thomas six starts

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Speaker 2: arguing that it might be a moral to kill characters

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Speaker 2: in video games, and I'm going to quote from an

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Speaker 2: article in Volves. He argues that while NPCs do not

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Speaker 2: have anywhere near the mental complexity of animals, the difference

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Speaker 2: is one of degree rather than kind, and we should

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Speaker 2: care at least a tiny amount about their suffering, especially

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Speaker 2: if they grow more complex. And his argument is that like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: most it doesn't matter like individually killing a goomba or

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Speaker 2: a bet or a guy in GTA five, but like,

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Speaker 2: because they're getting more complicated and able to try to

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Speaker 2: avoid injury and stuff. There's evidence that there's some sort

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Speaker 2: of suffer ring there, and thus the sheer mass of

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Speaker 2: NPCs being killed that might be like enough that it's

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Speaker 2: ethically relevant to consider. And I think that's silly. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think that's ridiculous. I'm sorry, man, No, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: But that's a lot of the fun of the game.

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Speaker 3: Kill you.

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Speaker 2: If you're telling me, like we need to be deeply

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Speaker 2: concerned about the welfare of like cows that we lock

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Speaker 2: into factory farms, you got me, absolutely for sure. If

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Speaker 2: you're telling me I should feel bad about running down

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Speaker 2: a bunch of cops and grand theft auto.

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Speaker 3: It's also one of those things where it's like you

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Speaker 3: got to think locally. Man.

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Speaker 2: There's yeah, there's there's like there's like this is this

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Speaker 2: is the I mean? And he does say like, I

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Speaker 2: don't consider this a main problem, but like the fact

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Speaker 2: that you think this is a problem is it means

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Speaker 2: that you believe silly things about consciousness. Yeah, anyway, so

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Speaker 2: this is I think the fact that he gets he

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Speaker 2: leads himself here is kind of evidence of the sort

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Speaker 2: of logical fractures that are very common in this community.

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Speaker 2: But this is the guy that young Ziz is drawn to.

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Speaker 2: She loves this dude, right, He is kind of her

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Speaker 2: first intellectual heart throb, and she writes, quote, MY primary

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Speaker 2: concern upon learning about the singularity was how do I

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Speaker 2: make this benefit all sentient life, not just humans? So

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Speaker 2: she gets interested in this idea of the singularity. It's

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Speaker 2: inevitable that an AI god is going to arise, and

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Speaker 2: she gets into the, you know, the rationalist thing of

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Speaker 2: we have to make sure that this is a nice

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Speaker 2: AI rather than a mean one. But she has this

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Speaker 2: other thing to it, which is this AI has to

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Speaker 2: care as much as I do about animal life, right,

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Speaker 2: otherwise we're not really making the world better, you know.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Thamisik advises her to check out Less Wrong, which is

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Speaker 2: how Ziz starts reading elizer Yetkowski's work. From there, in

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Speaker 2: twenty twelve, she starts reading up effective altruism and existential risk,

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Speaker 2: which is a term that means the risk that a

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Speaker 2: super intelligent AI will kill us all. She starts believing

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Speaker 2: in all of this kind of stuff, and her a

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Speaker 2: particular belief is that like the Singularity, when it happens,

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Speaker 2: is going to occur in a flash kind of like

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Speaker 2: the rapture and almost immediately lead to the creation of

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Speaker 2: either a hell or a heaven. Right, and this will

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Speaker 2: be done by the term they use for this inevitable

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Speaker 2: AI is the Singleton, right'. That's what they call the

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Speaker 2: AI god that's going to come about, right, And so

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Speaker 2: her obsession is that she has to find a way

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Speaker 2: to make this Singleton a nice AI that cares about

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Speaker 2: animals as much as it cares about people. Right, that's

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Speaker 2: our initial big motivation. So she starts emailing Thomasick with

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Speaker 2: her concerns because she's worried that the other rationalists aren't vegans, right,

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Speaker 2: and they don't feel like animal welfare is like the

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Speaker 2: top priority for making sure this AI is good, and

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Speaker 2: she really wants to convert this whole community to veganism

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Speaker 2: in order to ensure that the Singleton is as focused

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Speaker 2: on insect and animal welfare as human welfare. And Thomas

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Speaker 2: Sick does care about animal rights, but he disagrees with

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Speaker 2: her because he's like, now, what matters is maximizing the

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Speaker 2: reduction of suffering, and like, a good Singleton will solve

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Speaker 2: climate change and shit, which will be better for the animals.

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Speaker 2: And if we focus on trying to convert everybody in

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Speaker 2: this the rationalist space to veganism. It's going to stop

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Speaker 2: us from accomplishing these bigger goals, right, this is shattering

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Speaker 2: to Ziz. Right, she decides that he doesn't Thomas Sick

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Speaker 2: doesn't care about good things, and she decides that she's

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Speaker 2: basically alone in her values. And so her first move.

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Speaker 3: The time to start a smaller subcol shit that.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like we're on our way. She first considers embracing

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Speaker 2: what she calls negative utilitarianism. And this is an example

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Speaker 2: of the fact that from the jump, this is a

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Speaker 2: young woman who's not well, right because once her hero

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Speaker 2: is like, I don't know if veganism is necessarily are

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Speaker 2: the priority we have to embrace right now, her immediate

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Speaker 2: goals to jump to, well, maybe what I should do

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Speaker 2: is optimize myself to cause as much harm to humanity

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Speaker 2: and quote destroy the world, to prevent it from becoming

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Speaker 2: hell for mostly everyone. So that's a jump.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: That's not somebody who's doing well you think is healthy.

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Speaker 3: No, she's uh, she's having a tough time out. Uh huh.

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Speaker 2: So Ziz does ultimately decide she should still work to

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Speaker 2: bring about a nice AI, even though that necessitates working

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Speaker 2: with people she describes as flesh eating monsters who had

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Speaker 2: created hell on Earth for far more people than those

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Speaker 2: they had helped. That's everybody who eats meat, Okay, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: And it's ironic, large group. It's ironic because like if

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Speaker 2: you if you're she really wants to be in the

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Speaker 2: tech industry. She's trying to get an all all these

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Speaker 2: people are in the tech industry. That's a pretty good

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Speaker 2: description of a lot of the tech industry. They're in

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Speaker 2: fact monsters who have created hell on Earth for more

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Speaker 2: people than they've felt. But she means that for like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you're you're onto has a Hamburger once

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Speaker 2: a week and look again, factory farming evil. I just

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Speaker 2: don't think that's how morality works. I think you're going

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Speaker 2: a little far.

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Speaker 3: No, she's making big jumps.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're making bold thinkers, bold thinker. Yeah. Now, what

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Speaker 2: you see here with this logic is that Ziz has

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Speaker 2: taken this. She has a massive case of main character syndrome.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: All of this is based in her attitude that I

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Speaker 2: have to save the universe by creating, by helping to

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Speaker 2: or figuring out how to create an AI that can

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Speaker 2: end the eternal holocaust of all animal life and also

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Speaker 2: save humanity.

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Speaker 3: Right to do?

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Speaker 2: That's me and this is this is a thing.

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Speaker 3: Again.

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Speaker 2: All of this comes out of both subcultural aspects and

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Speaker 2: aspects of American culture. One major problem that we have

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Speaker 2: in the society is Hollywood has trained us all on

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Speaker 2: a diet of movies with main characters that are the

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Speaker 2: special boy or the special girl with the special powers

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Speaker 2: who save the day, right, and real life doesn't work

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Speaker 2: that way very often. Right, the Nazis, there was no

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Speaker 2: special boy who stopped the Nazis. There were a lot

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Speaker 2: of farm boys who were just like, I guess I'll

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Speaker 2: go run in a machine gun nest until this is

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Speaker 2: done exactly. There were a lot of sixteen year old

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Speaker 2: Russians who were like, guess I'm gonna walk in a bullet,

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Speaker 2: you know, like that's that's how evil gets fought. Usually, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: all were reluctant like that, yeah yeah, or a shitloaded

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Speaker 2: guys in a lab figuring out how to make corn

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Speaker 2: that has higher yields so people don't starve. Right, These

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Speaker 2: are these are really like how world clatt Like huge

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Speaker 2: world problems get solved.

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Speaker 3: People who have been touched, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not people who have been touched, and it's

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Speaker 2: certainly not people who have entirely based their understanding on

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Speaker 2: the world from quotes from Star Wars and Harry Potter.

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Speaker 2: So some of this comes from just like, this is

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Speaker 2: a normal, deranged way of thinking that happens to a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in just Western I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of this leads to, uh, why you get very comfortable

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Speaker 2: middle class people joining these very aggressive fascist movements in

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Speaker 2: the West, Like in Germany, it's like middle class mostly

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Speaker 2: like middle class and upper middle class people in the US,

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Speaker 2: especially among like these street fighting, you know, proud boy types.

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Speaker 2: It's because it's not because they're like suffering and desperate.

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Speaker 2: They're not starving in the streets. It's because they're bored

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Speaker 2: and they want to feel like they're fighting an epic

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Speaker 2: war against evil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you want to fill your time with importance,

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Speaker 3: right right, regardless of what you do, you want to

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Speaker 3: and you want to feel like you have a cause

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Speaker 3: worthy of fighting for. So in that, I guess I

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Speaker 3: see how you got here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's a piece I mean, I think there's

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Speaker 2: a piece of this that originally it's just from this

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Speaker 2: is something in our culture. But there's also a major,

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Speaker 2: a major chunk of this gets supercharged by the kind

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Speaker 2: of thinking that's common in EA and rationalist spaces, because

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Speaker 2: so rationalists and effective altruists are not ever thinking like, hey,

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Speaker 2: how do we as a species fix these major problems?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: They're thinking, how do I make myself better, optimize myself

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Speaker 2: to be incredible, and how do I like fix the

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Speaker 2: major problems of the world alongside my mentally superpowered friends.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: These are very individual focused philosophies and attitudes, right, And

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Speaker 2: so they do lend themselves to people who think that, like,

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Speaker 2: we are heroes who are uniquely empowered to save the

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Speaker 2: world ziz rights. I did not trust most humans indifference

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Speaker 2: to build a net positive cosmos, even in the absence

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Speaker 2: of a technological convenience to prey on animals, So like,

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Speaker 2: I'm the only one who has the mental capability to

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Speaker 2: actually create the net positive cosmos that needs to come

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Speaker 2: into being. All of her discussion is talking in like

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Speaker 2: terms of I'm saving the universe, right, And a lot

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Speaker 2: of that does come out of the way many of

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Speaker 2: these people talk on the Internet about the stakes of AI,

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Speaker 2: and just like the importance of rationality. Again, this is

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Speaker 2: something scientology does. El Ron Hubbard always couched getting people

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Speaker 2: on dianetics in terms of we are going to save

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Speaker 2: the world and end war, right, like this is you know,

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Speaker 2: it's very normal for cold stuff. She starts reading around

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Speaker 2: this time when she's in college, Harry Potter and the

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Speaker 2: Methods of Rationality. This helps to solidify her feelings of

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Speaker 2: her own centrality as a hero figure. In a blog

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Speaker 2: post where she lays out her intellectual journey, she quotes

397
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Speaker 2: a line from that fan thick of yed Kowski's that is,

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Speaker 2: it's essentially about what Yudkowski calls the hero contract, right

399
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Speaker 2: or sorry, It's essentially about this concept called the hero contract. Right,

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Speaker 2: And there's this, there's this, This is a psychological concept

401
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Speaker 2: among academics right where. And it's about like, it's about

402
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Speaker 2: about analyzing how we as a how we should look

403
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Speaker 2: at the people who societies declare heroes and the communities

404
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Speaker 2: that declare them heroes and see them as in a dialogue,

405
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Speaker 2: right as in when when when you're in a country

406
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Speaker 2: decides this guy is a hero. He is through his

407
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Speaker 2: actions kind of conversing to them, and they are kind

408
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Speaker 2: of telling him what they expect from him.

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Speaker 3: Right.

410
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: But Yedkowski wrestles with this concept, right, and he comes

411
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Speaker 2: to some very weird conclusions about it. In one of

412
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Speaker 2: the worst articles that I've ever read, he frames it

413
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Speaker 2: as hero licensing. I refer to the fact that people

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Speaker 2: get angry at you if they don't think you have

415
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Speaker 2: if you're trying to do something and they don't think

416
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Speaker 2: you have a hero license to do it. In other words,

417
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Speaker 2: if you're trying to do something like that they don't

418
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Speaker 2: think you're qualified to do. He'll describe that as them

419
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Speaker 2: not thinking of like a hero license. And he like

420
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Speaker 2: writes this annoying article that's like a conversation between him

421
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Speaker 2: and a person who's supposed to embody the community of

422
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Speaker 2: people who don't think he should write Harry Potter fan fiction.

423
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: It's all very silly, and again always is ridiculous. But

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Speaker 2: Ziz is very interested in the idea of the hero contract, right,

425
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Speaker 2: but she comes up with her own spin on it,

426
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Speaker 2: which she calls the true hero contract, right and instead

427
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: of again, the academic term is the hero contract means

428
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Speaker 2: societies and communities pick heroes, and those heroes in the

429
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: community that they're in are in a constant dialogue with

430
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Speaker 2: each other about what is heroic and what is expected, right,

431
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Speaker 2: what the hero needs from the commune unity, and vice versa.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's all that that's saying, Ziz says, No, no, nah,

433
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Speaker 2: that's bullshit. The real hero contract is quote poor free

434
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Speaker 2: energy at my direction, and it will go into the

435
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: optimization for good.

436
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 3: In other words, classic.

437
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: SiZ, it's not a dialogue. If you're the hero, the

438
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: community has to give you their energy and time and power,

439
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: and you will use it to optimize them for good

440
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: because they don't know how to do it themselves, because

441
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: they're not really able to think.

442
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 3: You know, they're not the.

443
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: Hero, because they're not the hero. Right you are? You are?

444
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 3: You are the all powerful hero.

445
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: Now this is a fancy way of describing how cult

446
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 2: leaders think. Right, Yeah, everyone exists to poor energy into me,

447
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: and I'll use it to do what's right. You know.

448
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: So this is where her mind is in twenty twelve,

449
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 2: but again she's just a student posting on the Internet

450
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 2: and chatting with other members of the subculture. Point that year,

451
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: she starts donating money to MIRY, the Machine Intelligence Research

452
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: Research Institute, which is a nonprofit devoted to studying how

453
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: to create friendly Ai y had Kowski founded Miri in

454
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 2: two thousand, right, so this is his like nonprofit think tank.

455
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 2: In twenty thirteen, she finished an internship at NASA. So

456
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: again she is a very smart young woman.

457
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 3: Right.

458
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: She gets an internship at NASA and she builds a

459
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: tool for space weather analysis, so as the person with

460
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: a lot of potential, very very as. All of the

461
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: stuff she's writing is like dumbest shit. But again, intelligence

462
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: isn't an absolute. People can be brilliant at coding and

463
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: have terrible ideas about everything else.

464
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I wonder if she's telling you think

465
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: she's telling people at work.

466
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think at this point she is,

467
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: because she's super insular. Right, She's very uncomfortable talking to people. Right,

468
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: She's going to kind of break out of her shell

469
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: once she gets to San Francisco. I don't know. She

470
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: may have talked to some of them about this stuff,

471
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: but I really don't think she is at this point.

472
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: I don't think she's comfortable enough doing that. Yeah. So

473
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: she also does an internship at the Software Giant Oracle.

474
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: So at this point you've got this young lady who's

475
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: got a lot of potential, you.

476
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: Know, a real career as well.

477
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the start of a very real career. That's a

478
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: great starting resume for like a twenty two year old.

479
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 2: Now at this point, she's torn should she go get

480
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: a graduate degree, right, or should she jump right into

481
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: the tech industry, you know, and she worries that like,

482
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: if she waits to get a graduate degree, this will

483
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: delay her making a positive impact on the existential risk

484
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: caused by AI, and it'll be too late. The singularity

485
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: will happen already, you know. At this point, she's still

486
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: a big fawning fan of Eliza Yedkowski and the highest

487
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: ranking woman at Gydkowski's organization, Mary is a lady named

488
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: Susan Salomon. Susan gives a public invitation to the online

489
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: community to pitch ideas for the best way to improve

490
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: the ultimate quality of the singleton that these people believe

491
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: is inevitable. In other words, hey, give us your ideas

492
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: for how to make the inevitable AI god nice right.

493
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: Here's what Ziz writes about her response to that. I

494
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: asked her whether I should try an alter course and

495
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: do research or continue a fork of my pre existing

496
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: life plan earned to give as a computer engineer, but

497
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: retrain and try to do research directly instead. At the time,

498
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: I was planning to go to grad school and I

499
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 2: had an irrational attachment to the idea. She sort of

500
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: compromised and said, I should go to grad school, fight

501
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: a startup co founder, drop out, and earn to give

502
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 2: via startups instead. First off, bad advices and bad advice

503
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: being stobs, being Steve Jobs, worked for Steve Jobs well,

504
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: and Bill Gates. I guess, to an extent, it doesn't

505
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: work for most people.

506
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 3: No, no, no, it seems like the general tech disruptor idea,

507
00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 3: you know.

508
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and most people these people aren't very original thinkers,

509
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: like yeah, she's just saying, like, yeah, go to a

510
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs. So Ziz does go to grad school, and

511
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: somewhere around that time in twenty fourteen, she attends a

512
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: lecture by Elisia Jedkowski on the subject of Inadequate Equilibria,

513
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: which is the title of a book that Jodkowski had

514
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: wrote about the time, and the book is about where

515
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 2: and how civilizations get stuck. One reviewer, Brian Kaplan, who

516
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: despite being a professor of economics, must have a brain

517
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: as smooth as a Pearl wrote this about it. Every

518
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: society is screwed up. Elisia Yidkowski is one of the

519
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: few thinkers on earth who are trying, at the most

520
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: general level to understand why. And this is like, wow,

521
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: that's it you, Pete. Please study the humanities a little bit,

522
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: A little bit, a little bit, I.

523
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: Mean, fuck man.

524
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: The first and most like one of the first influential

525
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: works of his modern historic scholarship is The Decline and

526
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: Fall of the Roman Empire. It's a whole book about

527
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: why a society fell apart, and like motherfucker. More recently,

528
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: Mike Davis existed, like like Jesus Christ.

529
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: I believe this guy continues to get traction.

530
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: Nobody else is thinking about why society screwed up, but

531
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: a Leezer yed Kowski, this.

532
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: Man, this man, this guy, this marry.

533
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I was trying to find another. I read

534
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: through that Martin Luther King junior speech. Everything's good, oh,

535
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: oh my god, oh my god. Like motherfucker. So many

536
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: people do nothing but try to write about why our

537
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: society is sick.

538
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: They did.

539
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 3: On all levels, by the way, on.

540
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: Everybody's thinking about this. This is such a common subject

541
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: of scholarship and discussion.

542
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: What everyone's talking always.

543
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: It would be like if if I got really into

544
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: like reading medical textbooks and was like, you know what,

545
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: nobody's ever tried to figure out how to transplant a heart.

546
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to write a book about how that might work.

547
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: I think I got you know, people, So yeah, speaking

548
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: of these fucking people have sex with Uh Nope, well.

549
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: That's not something.

550
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. I don't know. Uh, don't fuck

551
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: listen to ads. We're back. So Zizz is at this

552
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: speech where Yudkowski is shilling his book, and he most

553
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 2: of what he seems to be talking about in this

554
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: speech about this book about why societies fall apart is

555
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: how to make a text startup. She says, quote he

556
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: gave a recipe for finding startup ideas. He said, Paul

557
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: Graham's idea only filter on people, ignore startup ideas was

558
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: partial epistemic learned helplessness. That means Paul Graham is saying,

559
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: focus on finding good people that you'd start a company with.

560
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: Having an idea for a company doesn't matter. Yudkowski says,

561
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: of course, startup ideas mattered. You needed a good startup idea,

562
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: so look for a way in the world is broken,

563
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: then compare against a checklist of things you couldn't fix,

564
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: you know, right, Like, that's that's what this speech is

565
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: largely about, as him being like, here's how to find

566
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: startup ideas. So she starts thinking. She starts thinking as

567
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: hard as she can, and you know, being a person

568
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: who is very much of the tech brain industry rot

569
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: at this point, she comes up with a brilliant idea.

570
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: It's a genius idea. Oh you're gonna you're gonna love

571
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: this idea. David Uber for prostitutes.

572
00:31:58,520 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, fucking with me?

573
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: No, No, it's.

574
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: That's where she landed.

575
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: She lands on the idea of oh wow, sex work

576
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: is illegal, but porn isn't. So if we start an

577
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: uber whereby a team with a camera and a porn

578
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: star come to your house and you fuck them and

579
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: record it, that's a legal loophole. We just found that

580
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: at Its not just bus. She makes the bank bus,

581
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: the gig economy. It is really like dondreper a moment,

582
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: what about uber but a pimp? It's so funny these people.

583
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 3: You gotta love it, you got wow, it's wow. Wow,

584
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: what a place to end up. I would love to

585
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: see the other drafts.

586
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, first because god, yeah, man, that's that's that

587
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: is the good stuff, isn't it.

588
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

589
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: Wow wow, we special minds at work here. Oh man.

590
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: Ultimately it all I have to make smart.

591
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: I have to make pimp uber.

592
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: That's so wild.

593
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the uber of pimping. What an idea? Now,

594
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: so Ziz devotes her brief time in grad school. She's

595
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: working on pimping Uber to try and find a partner.

596
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: Right.

597
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: She wants to have a startup partner, someone who will

598
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: will embark on this journey with her.

599
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's an investor you need to.

600
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: It doesn't work out, She drops out of grad school

601
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: because quote, I did not find someone who felt like

602
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: good startup co founder material. This may be because she's

603
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: very bad at talking to people and all, so probably

604
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: scares people off because the things that she talks about

605
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: are deeply off putting.

606
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna say. It's also a terrible idea.

607
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: And at this point she hasn't done anything bad, so

608
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: I feel bad for this is a person who's very lonely,

609
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: who is very confused. She has by this point realized

610
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: that she's trans but not transitioned. She's in like this

611
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: is this is like a tough place to be, right,

612
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: that's a hard times.

613
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: That's that's hard.

614
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: And nothing about her inherent personality makes it is going

615
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 2: to make this easier for her. Right who she is

616
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 2: makes all of this much harder because she also makes

617
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: some comments about dropping out because her her thesis advisor

618
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: was abusive. I don't fully know what this means. And

619
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: here's why Ziz and encounter some behavior I will describe

620
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: later that is abusive from other people, but also regularly

621
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 2: defines abuse as people who disagree with her about the

622
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 2: only thing that matters being creating an AI god to

623
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: protect the animals. So I don't know if her thesis

624
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 2: advisor was abusive or was just like, maybe drop the

625
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 2: alien god idea for a second. Yeah, yeah, but maybe

626
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 2: maybe focus on like finding a job, you know, making

627
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: some friends, a couple of dates, go on a couple

628
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: of dates, something like that. Maybe maybe like maybe make

629
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 2: God on the back burner here for a second. Whatever

630
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: happened here, She decides it's time to move to the Bay.

631
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: This is like twenty sixteen. She's going to find a

632
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 2: big tech job. She's going to make that big tech money.

633
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: While she figures out a startup idea and finds a

634
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: co founder who will let her make enough money to

635
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: change and save the world, well, the whole universe. Her

636
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 2: first plan is to give the money to Mary Yudkowski's

637
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: organization so it can continue it's important, important work, imagining

638
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: an ic AI. Her parents. She's got enough family money

639
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: that her parents are able to pay for like I

640
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 2: think like six months or more of rent in the bay,

641
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: which is not nothing, not a cheap place to live.

642
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly how long her parents are paying,

643
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: but like that that implies a degree of financial comfort. Right,

644
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 2: So she gets hired by a startup very quickly, because

645
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: again very gifted.

646
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: Right.

647
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yes it's some sort of gaming company. But at

648
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: this point she's made another change in her ethics system

649
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: based on the Leiser Yeddkowski's writings. One of Yukowski's writings

650
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: argues that it is talking about the difference between consequentialists

651
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: and virtue ethics. Right. Consequentialists are people who focus entirely

652
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: on what will the outcome of my actions be? And

653
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: it kind of doesn't matter what I'm doing or even

654
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 2: if it's sometimes a little fucked up, if the end

655
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 2: result is good virtue ethics. People folk have a code

656
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: and stick to it, right And actually, and I kind

657
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 2: of am surprised that he came to this. Yakowski's conclusion

658
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: is that like, while logically you're more likely to succeed,

659
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: like on paper, you're more likely to succeed as a consequentialist.

660
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 2: His opinion is that virtue ethics has the best outcome.

661
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: People tend to do well when they stick to a

662
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: code and they try to rather than like anything goes

663
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: as long as I succeed, right, And I think that's

664
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 2: actually a pretty decent way to live your life.

665
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,959
Speaker 3: It's a pretty reasonable conclusion for him.

666
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: It's a reasonable conclusion for him, So I don't blame

667
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 2: him on this part. But here's the problem. Zizz is

668
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: trying to break into and succeed in the tech industry,

669
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: and you can't. You are very unlikely to succeed at

670
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: a high level in the tech industry if you are

671
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: unwilling to do things and have things done to you

672
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: that are unethical and fucked up. I'm not saying this

673
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: is good. This is the reality of the entertainment industry too, right.

674
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: I experience when I started and I started with an

675
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: unpaid internship. Unpaid internships are bad, right, It's bad that

676
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: those exist. They inherently favor people who have money and

677
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: people who have family connections. You know, I had like

678
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: a small savings account for my job in special ed,

679
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: but that was the standard. It is, like, there were

680
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: a lot of unpaid internships. It got me my foot

681
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 2: in the door. It worked for me. I also worked

682
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: a lot of overtime that I didn't get paid for.

683
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: I did a lot of shit that wasn't a part

684
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 2: of my job to impress my bosses to make myself

685
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 2: indispensable so that they would decide, like, we have to

686
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: keep this guy on and pay him. And it worked

687
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: for me. And I just wanted to add because this

688
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: was not in the original thing. A big part of

689
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 2: why it worked for me is that I'm talking about

690
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 2: a few different companies here, but particularly at Cracked where

691
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: I had the internship. Like my bosses, you know, made

692
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: a choice tom intor me, and you know, to get me,

693
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: you know, to work overtime on their own behalf to

694
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 2: like make sure I got a paying job, which is

695
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: a big part of like the luck that I encountered

696
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: that a lot of people don't. So that's another major

697
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: part of like why things worked out for me is

698
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: that I just got incredible lucky with the people I

699
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: was working for and with That's bad. It's not good

700
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: that things work that way, right, It's not healthy.

701
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 3: Set up for you either, Like you know, you kind

702
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: of defied the odds. It's it's, like you said, the

703
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: rich people who get the job where exactly it's not.

704
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: Even yes, that said, if I am giving someone, if

705
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: someone wants what is the most likely path to succeeding?

706
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: You know, I've I've just got this job working, you know,

707
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 2: on this production company or the music steer, I would

708
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: I would say, well, your best odds are to like

709
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: make yourself completely indispensable and become obsessively devoted to that task.

710
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: Right.

711
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: Uh, that's it. I don't tend to give that advice anymore.

712
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: I have and I have had several other friends succeed

713
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: as a result of it, and all of us also

714
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: burnt ourselves out and did huge amounts of damage to ourselves.

715
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 2: Like I am permanently broken as a result of of

716
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 2: you know, the ten years that I did eighty hour

717
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: weeks and shit, you.

718
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: Know, now you're sounding like somebody who works in the

719
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 3: entertainment and.

720
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it worked for me, right, I got

721
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: a I succeeded, I got a great job, I got money.

722
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: Most people it doesn't. And it's bad that it works

723
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 2: this way. Ziz, unlike me, is not willing to do that, right.

724
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: She thinks it's wrong to be asked to work overtime

725
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: and not get paid for it, and so on her

726
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: first day at the job, she leaves after eight hours

727
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 2: and her boss is like, what the fuck are you doing?

728
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: And she's like, I'm I'm here to supposed to be

729
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 2: here eight hours. Eight hours is up, I'm going home.

730
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: And he calls her half an hour later and fires her. Right,

731
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: and this is because the tech industry is evil, you know,

732
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 2: like this is bad. She's not bad here she is.

733
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: It is like a thing where it's she's not doing

734
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: by her standards. What I would say is the rational thing,

735
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: which would be if all that matters is optimizing your

736
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: earning power, right, right, well, then you do this, then

737
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: you do do whatever it takes. Right. So it's kind

738
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: of interesting to me like that she is so devoted

739
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: to this like virtue ethics thing at this point that

740
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: she fucks over her career in the tech industry because

741
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 2: she's not willing to do the things that you kind

742
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: of need to do to succeed, you know, in the

743
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: place that she is. But it's interesting, I don't like

744
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 2: give her any shit for that. So she asked your

745
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: parents more for more runway to extend your time in

746
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: the bay. And then she finds work at another startup,

747
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: but the same problems persist. Quote, they kept demanding that

748
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: I work unpaid overtime, talking about how other employees just

749
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: put always put forty hours on their timesheet no matter what.

750
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 2: And this exemplary employee over there worked twelve hours a

751
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: day and he really went the extra mile and got

752
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: the job done. And they needed me to really go

753
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 2: the extra mile and get the job done. She's not

754
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: willing to do that. And again I hate that this

755
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 2: is part of what drives her to the madness that

756
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: leads to the cult to the killings, because it's like, oh, honey,

757
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: you're in the right. It's an eavil industry.

758
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you a flash of where it could have gone.

759
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,959
Speaker 3: Well it really there were chances for this to work out.

760
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: No, you were one hundred percent right, Like this is

761
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: stuck to it. Yeah, you know what I mean, And

762
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: that's super hard. I really respect that part of you.

763
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm so sad that this is

764
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: part of what shatters your brain. Like that really bums

765
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 2: me out. So first off, she's kind of starts spiraling

766
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: and she concludes that she hates virtue ethics. This is

767
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: where she starts hating Yidkowski, right, This is she doesn't

768
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: come break entirely on him yet, but she gets really

769
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: angry at this point because she's like, well, obviously virtue

770
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: ethics don't work.

771
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 3: And she's been following this man at this point for.

772
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: Years exactly exactly, so this is a very like damaging

773
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: thing to her that this happens. And you know, and

774
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: again as much as I'm blamed Yadkowski, the culture of

775
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: the Bay Bay area tech industry. That's a big part

776
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 2: of what drives this person and you know, to where

777
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: she ends up.

778
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 3: Right.

779
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 2: So that said, some of her issues are also rooted

780
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 2: in a kind of rigid and unforgiving internal rule set.

781
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: At one point, she negotiates work with a professor and

782
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: their undergraduate helper. She doesn't want to take an hourly job,

783
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: and she tries to negotiate a flat rate of seven k.

784
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, okay, that sounds fair, but the

785
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: school doesn't do stuff like that, so you will have

786
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 2: to fake some paperwork with me for me to be

787
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 2: able to get them to pay you seven thousand dollars.

788
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: And she isn't willing to do that. And that's the

789
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: thing where it's like, ah, no, I've had some shit

790
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: where this was the like there was a stupid rule

791
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 2: and like in order for the pep meat or other

792
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: people to get paid, we had to like tell something

793
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: else to the company. Like that's just that's just no

794
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: knowing how to get by. Yeah, that's that's living.

795
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: In the world. You got Yeah, you did the hard part. Yeah,

796
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 3: they said that we were going to do it.

797
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: You said they did it.

798
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like they already said we don't do this.

799
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: That's where are you just?

800
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: You can't get by in America If you're not, why

801
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: will rely on certain kinds of paperwork? Right, That's that's

802
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: the game our president does all the time. He's the

803
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: king of that shit. So at this point, Ziz is

804
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: stuck in what they consider a calamitous situation. The prophecy

805
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: of doom, as they call it, is ticking ever closer,

806
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: which means the bad AI that's going to create hell

807
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: for everybody. Her panic over this is elevated by the

808
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: fact that she she starts to get obsessed with Roco's

809
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 2: basilisk at this time. No I know, I know, worst

810
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: thing for her to read, come on and info hazards

811
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: right the warnings yep, and a lot of the smarter

812
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: rationalists are just annoyed by it.

813
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 3: Again.

814
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: Yadkowski immediately is like this is very quickly decides it's

815
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: bullshit and bans discussion of it. He argues there's no

816
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: incentive for a future agent to follow through with that

817
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 2: threat because it by doing so, it just expends resources

818
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: no gain to itself, which is like, yeah, man, a

819
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: hyperlogical AI would not immediately jump to I must make

820
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: hell for everybody who didn't code me Like, yeah, that's

821
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: just crazy.

822
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 3: There's step skew.

823
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, only humans are like ill in that way.

824
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 3: That's the funny thing about it is it's such a

825
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 3: human response to it.

826
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, right right now. When she encounters the concept of

827
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 2: Roco's basilisk at first, Ziz thinks that it's silly, right.

828
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: She kind of rejects it and moves on, But once

829
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: she gets to the Bay, she starts going to in

830
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: person rationalist meetups and having long conversations with other believers

831
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 2: who are still talking about Roco's basilisk. She writes, I

832
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 2: started encountering people who were freaked out by it, freaked

833
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: out that they had discovered an improvement to the info

834
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: hazard that made it function got around a Leezer's objection.

835
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 2: Her ultimate conclusion is this, if I persisted in trying

836
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: to save the world, I would be tortured until the

837
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 2: end of top the universe by a coalition of all

838
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: unfriendly ais in order to increase the amount of measure

839
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: they got by demoralizing me. Even if my system too

840
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 2: had good decision theory, my system one did not, and

841
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 2: that would damage my effectiveness. And like, I can't explain

842
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: all of the terms in that without taking more time

843
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: than we need to. But like you can hear like

844
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: that is not the writing of a person who is

845
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: thinking in logical terms.

846
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: No, it's it's a uh it's so scary.

847
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it is very scary stuff.

848
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 3: It's so scary to be like, Oh, that's where she

849
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 3: was operating those mistakes.

850
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 2: This is where you're she's dealing with.

851
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 3: Yes, that's that's it is. You know.

852
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 2: I talked to my friends who grow are raised in

853
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: like very toxic evangelical subculture, chunks of the evangelgelical sub

854
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: culture and growth and spend their whole childhood terrified of

855
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: hell that like everything. You know, I got angry at

856
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 2: my mom and I didn't say anything, but God knows

857
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: I'm angry at her, and he's going to send me

858
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: to hell because I didn't respect my mother.

859
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: Mother.

860
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 2: Like, that's what she's doing right.

861
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 3: Exactly, like exactly, she can't win. There's no winning here.

862
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and again I say this a lot. We

863
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: need to put lithium back in the drinking water. We

864
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: we gotta put lithium back in the water. Maybe xanax too, she.

865
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 3: Needed she could have tooken a combo. Yeah, before it

866
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 3: gets to where it gets at this point, you really

867
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: you really feel for and like just living in this

868
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: living like that every day. She's so scared and that

869
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 3: that this is what she's doing. It's it's this, this

870
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 3: is she is.

871
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: The therapy needingest woman I have ever heard. At this point,

872
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

873
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 3: She just needs to talk to she needs to talk again.

874
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 2: You know, the cult the thing that happens to cult

875
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: members has happened to her. Where she her. The whole

876
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: language she uses is incomprehensible to people. I had to

877
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: talk to you for an hour and fifteen minutes, so

878
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 2: you want to understand parts of what this lady says, right, Exactly,

879
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 2: she has to because it's all nonsense if you don't

880
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: do that work exactly.

881
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: She so spun out at this point, it's like, how

882
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 3: do you even get back? Yeah, how do you even

883
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: get back?

884
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? So she she ultimately decides, even though she thinks

885
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 2: she's doomed to be tortured by unfriendly ais evil gods,

886
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: must be fought. If this damns me, then so be it.

887
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 2: She's very heroic, she had and she sees herself that way, right.

888
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And even like just with her convictions and that

889
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 3: she she does, she does, she does, she does, she

890
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 3: does it.

891
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: She's a woman of conviction. You really can't take that

892
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 2: away from hers. Are nonsense, No, that's the but they're there.

893
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're based on elaborate Harry Potter fan fiction.

894
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like David Ike, the guy who believes in

895
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: like literal lizard people, and everyone thinks he's like talking

896
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: about the Jews, but like no, no, no, no, he

897
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 2: don't just lizards.

898
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: It's exactly that where it's just like you want to draw, yeah,

899
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 3: you want to draw something, so it's not nonsense, and

900
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 3: then you realize.

901
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: No, that's no, no, no no. And like David he

902
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: went out, he's made like a big rant against how

903
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: Elon Musk is like evil for what all these people

904
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: he's hurt by firing the whole federal government and people

905
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: were shocked. It's like no, no, no, David Ike believes

906
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 2: in a thing. It's just crazy. Those people do exist.

907
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: Here we are talking about and here we are talking

908
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 2: about them. Some of them run the country. But actually

909
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 2: I don't know how much all of those people believe

910
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: in anything. But yeah, yeah, speaking of people who believe

911
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:43,479
Speaker 2: in something, our sponsors believe in getting your money. We're back.

912
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 2: So uh. She is at this point suffering from delusions

913
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: of granteur, and those are going to rapidly lead her

914
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: to danger, but she concludes that since the fate of

915
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: the universe is at stake in her actions, she would

916
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: make a timeless choice to not believe in the bast

917
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: right and that that will protect her in the future

918
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: because that's how these people talk about stuff like that.

919
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: So she gets over her fear of the basilisk for

920
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: a little while, but even it, like when she claims

921
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 2: to have rejected the theory, whenever she references it in

922
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: her blog, she like locks it away under a spoiler

923
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: with like an info hazard warning Roco's Basilisk family skippable,

924
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 2: so you don't like have to see it and have

925
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 2: it destroy your psyche.

926
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 3: That's the power of it.

927
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah. The concept does, however, keep coming back

928
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 2: to her like and continuing to drive her mad. Thoughts

929
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 2: of the basilisk return, and eventually she comes to an

930
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 2: extreme conclusion. If what I cared about was sentient life,

931
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,479
Speaker 2: and I was willing to go to hell to save

932
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 2: everyone else, why not just send everyone else to hell?

933
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 2: If I didn't submit, Can I tell you I really

934
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 2: it felt like this is what was This is where

935
00:50:54,800 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 2: it had to go, right yeah yeah yes. So what

936
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: she means here is that she is now making the

937
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: timeless decision that when she is in a position of

938
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: ultimate influence and helps bring this all powerful vegan Ai

939
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: into existence, she's promising now ahead of time, to create

940
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 2: a perfect hell, a digital hell to like punish all

941
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 2: of the people who don't stop like eat meat. Ever,

942
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: she wants to make a hell for people who eat meat.

943
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: And that's the yeah, that's the conclusion that she makes. Right,

944
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: So this becomes an intrusive thought in her head, primarily

945
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: the idea that like everyone isn't going along with her, right, Like,

946
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to create this hell. She just thinks

947
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: that she has to. So she's like very focused on

948
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: like trying to convince these other people in the rationalist

949
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: culture to become vegan. Anyway, she writes this quote, I

950
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 2: thought it had to be subconsciously influencing me, damaging me

951
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: at my effectiveness, that I had done more harm than

952
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 2: I can imagine by thinking these things, because I had

953
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 2: the hubris to think info hazards didn't exist, worse to

954
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: feel resigned a grim sort of pride in my previous

955
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 2: choice to fight for sentient life, although it damned me

956
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: and the gaps between. Do not think about that, you moron.

957
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 2: Do not think about that, you moron pride, which may

958
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 2: have led to intrusive thoughts to resurface, and progress and

959
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 2: progress to resume. In other words, my ego had perhaps

960
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 2: damned the universe. So Man, I don't fully get all

961
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 2: of what she's saying here. But it's also because she's

962
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: like just spun out into madness at this.

963
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, she lives in it now. It's so yeah, it's

964
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 3: so far for we've been talking about it, however long

965
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 3: she's she's so far away from us even.

966
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is it is deeply I've read a

967
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: lot of her writing. It is deeply hard to understand

968
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 2: pieces of it here, man.

969
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 3: But she is at war with herself.

970
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: She is for sure at war with herself.

971
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 3: Now.

972
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 2: This is at this point attending rationalist events by the Bay,

973
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 2: and a lot of the people at those events are older,

974
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 2: more influential men, some of whom are influential in the

975
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: tech industry, all of whom have a lot more money

976
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: than her. And some of these people are members of

977
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 2: an organization called see FAR, the Center for Applied Rationality,

978
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 2: which is a nonprofit founded to help people get better

979
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: at a pursuing their goals. It's a self help company, right,

980
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: and what runs self help seminars. This is the same

981
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: as like a Tony Robbins thing. Right, We're all just

982
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 2: trying to get you to sign up and then get

983
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: you to sign up for the next workshop and the

984
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 2: next workshop and the next workshop, like all self help

985
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 2: people do. Yeah, there's no difference between this and Tony Robbins.

986
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 2: So Ziz goes to this event and she has a

987
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: long conversation with several members of SEEFAR, who I think

988
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: are clearly kind of My interpretation of this is that

989
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 2: they're trying to groom her to get a new because

990
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: they think chick's clearly brilliant, she'll find her way in

991
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 2: the industry, and we want her money, right, you know,

992
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 2: maybe we wanted to do some free work for us too,

993
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 2: but like, let's you know, uh, we got to reel

994
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: this fish in, right. So this is described as an

995
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: academic conference by people who are in the AI risk

996
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: field and rationalism, you know, thinking of ways to save

997
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: the universe, because only the true, the super geniuses can

998
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 2: do that. The actual why I'm really glad that I

999
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: read Ziz's account here is I've been reading about these

1000
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 2: people for a long time. I've been reading about their beliefs.

1001
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: I felt there's some cult stuff here. When Ziz laid

1002
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 2: out what happened at this seminar, this self help him

1003
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 2: seminar put on by these people, very close to Yedkowski.

1004
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: This is it's almost exactly the same as a Synonon meeting,

1005
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 2: Like it's the same stuff, It's exact and it's the

1006
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 2: same shit. It's the same as accounts of like big

1007
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: like self help movement, things from like the seventies and

1008
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 2: stuff that I've read that that that's when it really

1009
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 2: clicked to me.

1010
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 3: Right.

1011
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: Quote, here's a description of one of the because they

1012
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 2: have you know, speeches in they break out into groups

1013
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 2: to do different exercises. Right there were hamming circles per

1014
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 2: person take turns, having everyone else spend twenty minutes trying

1015
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: to solve the most important problem about your life. To you,

1016
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 2: I didn't pick the most important problem in my life

1017
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: because secrets. I think I used my turn on a

1018
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 2: problem I thought they might actually be able to help

1019
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 2: with the fact that it did, although it didn't seem

1020
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 2: to affect my productivity or willpower at all, I e

1021
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: I was in humanly determined. Basically all the time, I

1022
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: still felt terrible all the time that I was hurting

1023
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: from to some degree relinquishing my humanity. I was sort

1024
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 2: of vaguing about the pain of being trans and having

1025
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 2: decided not to transition and so like, this is a

1026
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 2: part of the thing. You build a connection between other

1027
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 2: people in this group by getting people to like spill

1028
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 2: their secrets to each other. It's a thing scientology does.

1029
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: It's a thing they did. It's send it on, tell

1030
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 2: me your dark is secret.

1031
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 3: Right.

1032
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 2: And she's not fully willing to because she doesn't want

1033
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 2: to come out to this group of people yet. And

1034
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:00,879
Speaker 2: you know part of what I forget.

1035
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 3: That she's also dealing with that entire yes.

1036
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, and that the hamming circle doesn't sound so

1037
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 2: bad if you'll recall any And as you mentioned this,

1038
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: I was really in part one. Sin and On would

1039
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: have people break into circles where they would insult and

1040
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 2: attack each other in order to create a traumatic experience

1041
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: that would bond them together and with the cult. These

1042
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 2: hamming circles are weird, but they're not that. But there's

1043
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 2: another exercise they did next called doom circles. Quote. There

1044
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: were doom circles where each person, including themselves, took turns

1045
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: having everyone else bluntly but compassionately say why they were

1046
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 2: doomed using blindsight. Someone decided and set a precedent of

1047
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 2: starting these off with a sort of ritual incantation we

1048
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 2: now invoke and bow to the doom gods and waving

1049
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 2: their hands saying doom. I said I'd never bow to

1050
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 2: the doom gods. And while everyone else said that, I

1051
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 2: flipped the double bird to the heavens and said fuck

1052
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: you instead. Person a that's this member of Seafar that

1053
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: she is. Admires found this and joined in. Some people

1054
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 2: brought up that they felt like they were only as

1055
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 2: morally valuable as half a person. This irked me. I

1056
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 2: said they were whole persons and don't be stupid like that,

1057
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,439
Speaker 2: Like if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, they could weigh

1058
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 2: one versus seven billion. They didn't have to falsely detegrate

1059
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: themselves is less than one person. They didn't listen. When

1060
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 2: it was my turn concerning myself, I said my doom

1061
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: was that I could succeed at the things I tried,

1062
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 2: succeed exceptionally well, Like I bet I could in ten

1063
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 2: years have earned a give like ten million dollars through startups,

1064
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: and it would still be too little, too late, like

1065
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: I came into this game too late. The world would

1066
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 2: still burn. And first off, like this is you know,

1067
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 2: it's a variant of the synonym thing you're going on.

1068
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: You're telling people why they're doomed, right, like why they

1069
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: won't succeed in life, you know. But it's also one

1070
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 2: of the things here these people are saying they feel

1071
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 2: like less than a person. A major topic of discussion

1072
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 2: in the community at the time is if you don't

1073
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 2: think you can succeed in business and make money, is

1074
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: the best thing with the highest net value you can

1075
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 2: do taking out an insurance policy on yourself and committing suicide,

1076
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 2: oh my god, and then having the money donated to

1077
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 2: a rationalist organization. That's a major topic of discussion that

1078
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 2: like Ziz grapples with, a lot of these people grapple

1079
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 2: with right because they're obsessed with the idea of like,

1080
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: oh my god, I might be net negative value. Right,

1081
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 2: if I can't do this or can't do this, I

1082
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: could be a net negative value individual. And that means

1083
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 2: like I'm not contributing to the solution. And there's nothing

1084
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 2: worse than not contributing to the solution.

1085
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 3: Were there people who did that?

1086
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 2: I am not aware there are people who commit suicide

1087
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: in this community. I will say that, like, there are

1088
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: a number of suicides tied to this community I don't

1089
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 2: know if the actual insurance con thing happened, but it's

1090
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 2: like a seriously discussed thing. And it seriously discussed because

1091
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 2: all of these people to talk about the value of

1092
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: their own line vives in purely like mechanistic how much

1093
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: money or expected value can I produce? Like that is

1094
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 2: a person and that's why a person matters, right And

1095
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: the term they use is morally valuable, right like, that's

1096
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 2: that's what means. You're a worthwhile human being if you're

1097
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 2: morally if you're creating a net positive benefit to the

1098
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: world in the way they define it. And so a

1099
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: lot of these people are. Yes, there are people who

1100
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,919
Speaker 2: are depressed, and there are people who kill themselves because

1101
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: they come to the conclusion that they're a net negative person,

1102
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: right like that that is a thing at the edge

1103
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 2: of all of this shit that's really fucked up. And

1104
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: that's that's what this doom circle is about. Is everybody

1105
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 2: like flipping out over I'm like and telling each other,

1106
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 2: I think you might know be as only be as

1107
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: morally valuable as half a person, right like, that's people

1108
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 2: are saying that, right like, that's what's going on here,

1109
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: you know, Like it's not the synonym thing of like

1110
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: screaming like you're a you know, using the f slur

1111
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: a million times or whatever. But it's very bad.

1112
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 3: No, this is this is this is awful for like.

1113
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 2: One thing I don't know. My feeling is you have

1114
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 2: an inherent value because you're a person.

1115
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great place to start, you know, I'm

1116
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 3: so leading people to destroy themselves. Like it's yeah.

1117
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 2: It's it's so. It's such a bleak way of looking

1118
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: at things.

1119
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: It's so crazy too. Where were these meals? I just

1120
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 3: in my head, I'm like, this is just happening in

1121
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: like a ballroom at a raticon.

1122
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: I think it is, or a convention center, you know,

1123
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 2: the different kind of public spaces. I don't know, Like honestly,

1124
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 2: if you've been to like an anime convention or a

1125
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 2: Magic the Gathering convention somewhere in the Bay, you may

1126
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 2: have been in one of the rooms they did these,

1127
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: And I don't know exactly where they hold this. So

1128
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 2: the person A mentioned above, this like person who's like

1129
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 2: affiliated with the organization that I think is a recruiter

1130
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: h looking for young people who can be cultivated to

1131
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 2: pay for classes. Right, this person, it's very clear to

1132
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 2: them that Zizz is at the height of her vulnerability,

1133
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 2: and so he tries to take advantage of that. So

1134
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 2: he and another person from the organization engage Ziz during

1135
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 2: a break. Ziz, who's extremely insecure, asks them point blank,

1136
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 2: what do you think my net value ultimately will be

1137
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: in life? Right? And again there's like an element of this.

1138
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 2: It's almost like rationalist calvinism, where it's like it's actually

1139
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 2: decided ahead of time by your inherent, immutable characteristics, you know,

1140
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 2: if you are a person who can do good. Quote.

1141
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 2: I asked person A if they expected me to be

1142
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: net negative. They said yes. After a moment, they asked

1143
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 2: me what I was feeling or something like that. I

1144
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 2: said something like dazed and sad. They asked why sad.

1145
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 2: I said I might leave the field as a consequence

1146
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 2: and maybe something else. I said I needed time to

1147
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 2: process or think. And so she goes home after this

1148
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 2: guy is saying like, yeah, I think your life's probably

1149
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: net negative value, and sleeps the rest of the day,

1150
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,919
Speaker 2: and she wakes up the next morning and comes back

1151
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: to the second day of this thing, and yeah, Ziz

1152
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 2: goes back and she tells this person, Okay, here's what

1153
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do. I'm going to pick a group of

1154
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 2: three people at the event I respect, including you, and

1155
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 2: if two of them vote that they think I have

1156
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: a net negative value quote, I'll leave EA and Existential

1157
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: risk and the rationalist community and so on forever. I'd

1158
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 2: transition and move, probably to Seattle. I heard it was

1159
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 2: relatively nice for trans people, and there do what I

1160
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: could to be a normy, retool my mind as much

1161
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: as possible, to be stable, unchanging an enormy gradually abandoned

1162
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 2: my Facebook account and email, use a name change as

1163
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: a story for that, and God, that would have been

1164
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: the best thing for That's what you see.

1165
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 3: But sliver of hope, like yeah, oh man.

1166
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 2: She sees this as a nightmare. Right, this is the

1167
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 2: worst case scenario for her, Right, because you're not part

1168
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 2: of right, you're not part of the you're not part

1169
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 2: of the cause. You know, you're you have no you

1170
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 2: have no involvement in the great quest to save humanity.

1171
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 2: That's worse than death, almost right, It's its own kind.

1172
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 3: Of hell, though, Right to think that you have this

1173
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 3: enlightenment and that you that you weren't good enough to.

1174
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 2: And that's a lot about how I'd probably just kill myself,

1175
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: you know, that's the logical thing to do. It's so

1176
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 2: fucked up, it's so fucked up. But also if she's

1177
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 2: trying to live a normal life as a normy, and

1178
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 2: she she refers to like being a normy as like

1179
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 2: just trying to be nice to people, because again that's useless.

1180
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: So her fe fear here is that she would be

1181
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,959
Speaker 2: a causal negative if she does this right. And also

1182
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 2: the robot god that comes about might put her in hell, right.

1183
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 3: Because that's also looming. Yeah, after every for every decision right. Yeah.

1184
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 2: And the thing here, she she expressed, she tells these

1185
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 2: guys a story, and it really shows, both in this

1186
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: community and among her, how little value they actually have

1187
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,919
Speaker 2: for like human life. I I told a story about

1188
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: a time I had killed four ants in a bathtub

1189
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 2: where I wanted to take a shower before growing to work.

1190
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: I'd considered, can I just not take a shower, and

1191
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: presumed me smelling bad at work would, because of big

1192
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 2: numbers in the fate of the world and stuff, make

1193
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 2: the world worse than the deaths of four basically causally

1194
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: isolated people. I considered getting paper in a cup and

1195
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 2: taking them elsewhere, and I figured there were decent odds

1196
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 2: if I did, I'd be late to work and it

1197
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 2: would probably make the world worse in the long run.

1198
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,919
Speaker 2: So again she considers ants identical to human beings, and

1199
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 2: she is also saying it was worth killing four of

1200
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: them because they're causally isolated so that I could get

1201
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 2: to work in time, because I'm working for the cause.

1202
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 2: It's also in a bad place here. Yeah.

1203
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 3: The crazy thing about her is it like the amount

1204
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 3: of thinking just to like get in the shower to

1205
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 3: go to work, you know, you know what I mean

1206
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 3: like that that Oh, it just seems like it makes everything. Yeah,

1207
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 3: every the action is so loaded, yes, yes, must.

1208
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 2: It's it's so it's it's wild to me both this

1209
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 2: like mix of like fucking Jane Buddhist compassion of like

1210
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 2: an aunt is no less than I, or an aunt

1211
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 2: is no less than a human being, right we are

1212
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 2: all these are all lives. And then but also it's

1213
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 2: fine for me to kill a bunch from me to

1214
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 2: go to work on time because like they're causally isolated,

1215
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 2: so they're basically not people. Like it's it's so weird.

1216
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:34,479
Speaker 2: Like and again it's getting a lot clearer here why

1217
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 2: this lady and her ideas end in a bunch of

1218
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 2: people getting shot.

1219
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah and stabbed.

1220
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a samurai's sword later in the story, my friend, that's.

1221
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 3: The one thing this has been missing.

1222
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So they continue, these guys to have a

1223
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 2: very abusive conversation with this young person, and she clearly

1224
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 2: she trust them enough.

1225
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 3: To a conversation where she asks for the two yeah, ok.

1226
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she tells them she's trans, right, And this

1227
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 2: gives you an idea of like how kind of predatory

1228
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 2: some of the stuff going on in this community is.

1229
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 2: They asked what I'd do with a female body. They

1230
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 2: were trying to get me to admit what I actually

1231
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 2: wanted to do was the first thing in heaven, heaven

1232
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: being there's this idea, especially amongst like some trans members

1233
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 2: of the rationalist community that like all of them basically

1234
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 2: believe a robot's going to make heaven right. And obviously,

1235
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 2: like there's a number of the folks who are in

1236
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 2: this who are trans are like and in heaven like

1237
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 2: you just kind of get the body you want immediately, right,

1238
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 2: so these get they were trying to get me to

1239
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: admit that what I actually wanted to do as the

1240
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 2: first thing in heaven was masturbate in a female body,

1241
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 2: and they follow us up by sitting really close to her,

1242
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 2: close enough that she gets uncomfortable. And then a really

1243
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 2: really rationalist conversation follows. They asked if I felt trapped.

1244
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 2: I may have clarified physically they may have said sure. Afterward,

1245
01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: I answered no to that question, under the likely justify.

1246
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 2: I believe that it was framed that way. They asked

1247
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 2: why not. I said I was pretty sure I could

1248
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 2: take them in a fight. They prodded for details why

1249
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: I thought so, and then how I thought a fight

1250
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 2: between us would go. I asked, what kind of fight,

1251
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 2: like a physical, unarmed fight to the death right now?

1252
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 2: And why? What were my payouts? This was over the

1253
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: fate of the multiverse. Triggering actions by other people, ie

1254
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: or imprisonment or murder was not relevant, So they decide

1255
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 2: they make this into again. These people are all addicted

1256
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 2: to dumb game theory stuff, right, Okay, so what is

1257
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:29,920
Speaker 2: this fight? Is this fight over the fate of the multiverse?

1258
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 2: Are we in a you know, an alternate reality where

1259
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 2: like no one will come and intervene and there's no

1260
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 2: cops we're the only people in the world or whatever.

1261
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 2: So they tell her like, yeah, imagine, there's no consequences

1262
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 2: legally whatever to you do, and we're fighting over the

1263
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 2: fate of the multiverse. And so she proceeds to give

1264
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 2: an extremely elaborate discussion of how she'll gouge out their

1265
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 2: eyes and try to destroy their prefrontal lobes and then

1266
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 2: stomp on their skulls until they die. And it's both

1267
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 2: it's like, it's nonsense. It's like how ten year olds

1268
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 2: thinks fights work. It's also it's based on this game

1269
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 2: theory attitude of fighting that they have, which is like

1270
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 2: it's you have to make this kind of timeless decision

1271
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 2: that any fight is you're you're just going to write.

1272
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 3: The hardest confrontation, right, Yes, I suppose you have to

1273
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 3: be the most violent.

1274
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because that will make other people not want

1275
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 2: to attack you, as opposed to like what normal people

1276
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 2: understand about like real fights, which is if you have

1277
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 2: to do one, if you have to, you like try

1278
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 2: to just like hit him in the hit him is

1279
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 2: somewhere that's going to shock them, and then run like

1280
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 2: a motherfucker, right you get them get out of Like

1281
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 2: if you have to, like ideally just run like a motherfucker.

1282
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 2: But if you have to strike somebody, you know, yeah,

1283
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 2: go for the eye and then run like a son

1284
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 2: of a bitch, you know. Like, but there's no run

1285
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 2: like a son of a bitch here, because the point

1286
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 2: in part is this like timeless decision to anyway, This

1287
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 2: gives tells you a lot about the rationalist community. So

1288
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 2: she tells these people, she explains in detail how she

1289
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 2: would murder them if they have to af They're like

1290
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 2: sitting next super close. Have you just asked her about masturbation?

1291
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 2: Here's their first question quote. They asked if I'd rape

1292
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 2: their corpse. Part of me insisted this was not going

1293
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 2: as it was supposed to, but I decided. I decided

1294
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 2: inflicting discomfort in order to get reliable information was a

1295
01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 2: valid tactic. In other words, them trying to make her

1296
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 2: uncomfortable to get info from her, she decides, is fine. Also,

1297
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 2: the whole discussion about raping their corpses is like, well,

1298
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 2: if you rape, obviously, if you want to have the

1299
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 2: most extreme response possible, that would like make other people

1300
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 2: unlikely to fuck with you knowing that you'll violate their corpse.

1301
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 2: If you kill them as clearly the light and like that. Okay, sure,

1302
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 2: I love rational thought.

1303
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 3: Oh man, this is crazy. Sorry, this yes is so crazy,

1304
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:46,759
Speaker 3: It's so nuts.

1305
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,679
Speaker 2: So then they talk about psychopathy. One of these guys

1306
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 2: had earlier told Ziz that they thought she was a psychopath.

1307
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 3: But he told.

1308
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,759
Speaker 2: Her that doesn't mean what it means bo to actual

1309
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 2: like clinicians, because psychopathy is a diagnostition or like what

1310
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 2: normal people mean. To rationalists, a lot of them think

1311
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 2: psychopathy is a state you can put yourself into in

1312
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 2: order to maximize your performance in certain situations. It's because

1313
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 2: they they've again there's some like popular books that are

1314
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 2: about like the psychopaths way, the Dark Triad, and like, well,

1315
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 2: you know, these are the people who lead societies in

1316
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:26,439
Speaker 2: the toughest times, and so like you could you need

1317
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 2: to optimize and engage in some of those behaviors if

1318
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 2: you want to win in these situations. Based on all

1319
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 2: of this, Ziz brings up what rationalists call the Gervas principle. Now,

1320
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 2: this started as a tongue in cheek joke describing a

1321
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 2: rule of office dynamics based on the TV show The Office.

1322
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 2: Yes it's Ricky Space, Yes, and The idea is that

1323
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 2: in office environments, psycho's always rise to the top. This

1324
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 2: is supposed to be like a negative observation, Like the

1325
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: person who wrote this initially is like, yeah, this is

1326
01:10:58,000 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 2: how offices work, and it's like why they're bad.

1327
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:00,400
Speaker 3: You know.

1328
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 2: It's an extension of the Peter principle. And these psychopaths

1329
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 2: put bad like dumb and incompetent people in like when

1330
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:12,400
Speaker 2: positions below them for a variety. It's trying to kind

1331
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 2: of work out why in which offices are often dysfunctional. Right,

1332
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 2: it's not like the original Jervas principle thing is like

1333
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,760
Speaker 2: not a bad piece of writing or whatever, but Zis

1334
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 2: takes something insane out of it. I described how the

1335
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 2: Jervase principle said sociopaths give up empathy as in a

1336
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 2: certain chunk of social software, not literally all hardware awared

1337
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: accelerated modeling of people, not necessarily compassion, and with it

1338
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 2: happiness destroying meaning to create power, meaning too, I did

1339
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 2: not care about I wanted this world to live on.

1340
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 2: So she tells them she's come to the conclusion I

1341
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 2: need to make myself into a psychopath in order to

1342
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 2: have the kind of mental power necessary to do the

1343
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 2: things that I want to do. And she largely justifies

1344
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 2: this by describing the beliefs of the Syth from Star Wars,

1345
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:01,600
Speaker 2: because she thinks she needs to remake herself as a

1346
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 2: psychopathic evil warrior monk in order to save all of creation. Yeah, no,

1347
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 2: of course, yep, So this is her hitting her final form.

1348
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 2: And true to fact, these guys are like, they don't

1349
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 2: say it's a good idea, but they're like, Okay, yeah,

1350
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 2: you know that's not That's not the worst thing you

1351
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,040
Speaker 2: could do. Sure, you know, like I think the Sith

1352
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 2: stuff kind of weird, but making yourself a psychopath makes sense. Sure, yeah,

1353
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 2: of course I know a lot of guys who did that.

1354
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 2: That's literally what they say, right, And then they say

1355
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 2: that also, I don't even think that's what they really

1356
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 2: they say that, because the next thing they say, this

1357
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 2: guy person a is like, look the best that later

1358
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 2: turn yourself from a net negative to a net positive value.

1359
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 2: I really believe you could do it. But to do it,

1360
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:47,280
Speaker 2: you need to come to ten more of these seminars

1361
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 2: and keep taking classes here right right right, here's a

1362
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,960
Speaker 2: quote from them. Are from Ziz. She's conditional on me

1363
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 2: going to a long course of circling like these two

1364
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 2: organizations offered, particularly a ten weekend one, then I probably

1365
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 2: would not be net negative. So things are going good.

1366
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 2: This is this is you know, ah, yeah great.

1367
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 3: How much is ten weekends cost?

1368
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: I don't actually know. I don't I don't fully know

1369
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 2: with this. It's possible some of these are like some

1370
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 2: of the events are free, like but the classes cost money,

1371
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 2: or but it's also a lot of it's like there's

1372
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:34,519
Speaker 2: donations expected, or by doing this and being a member,

1373
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 2: it's expected you're going to tithe basically like your income

1374
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 2: right more than at.

1375
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: Ult I don't know the format. Is she not going

1376
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: to be like super suspicious that people are like, you know,

1377
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:51,639
Speaker 1: faking it or like going over the top.

1378
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 2: She okay, is she is? She gets actually really uncomfortable.

1379
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 2: They have an exercise where they're basically doing you know,

1380
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 2: they're playing with love bombing right where everyone's like hugging

1381
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 2: and telling each other they love each other, and she's like,

1382
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 2: I don't really believe it. I just met these people.

1383
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:08,200
Speaker 2: So she has started to and she is going to

1384
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:12,680
Speaker 2: break away from these organizations pretty quickly. But this conversation

1385
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 2: she have with these guys is a critical part of

1386
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 2: like why she finally has this fracture because number one,

1387
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 2: this dude keeps telling her you have a net negative

1388
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 2: value to the universe, right, and so she's obsessed with

1389
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:29,879
Speaker 2: like how do I And it comes to the conclusion,

1390
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 2: my best way of being net positive is to make

1391
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 2: myself into as sociopath and the sith Lord to save

1392
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:40,640
Speaker 2: the animals.

1393
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 3: Of course, it feels like the same thinking though, as

1394
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 3: like the Robot's gonna make It seems to always come

1395
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 3: back to this idea of like I think we just

1396
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 3: gotta be evil.

1397
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 1: It's like, yes, oh, yes, well I guess the only

1398
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:59,320
Speaker 1: logical conllusion is doom yep.

1399
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:02,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

1400
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:05,679
Speaker 4: It's like it feels like it's a it's a theme here,

1401
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 4: m m yep. Anyway you want to plug anything. At

1402
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 4: the end here, I have.

1403
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 3: A comedy specially you can purchase on Patreon. It's called

1404
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 3: Birth of a Nation with a G. You can get

1405
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 3: that at Patreon, dot combat Slash.

1406
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 2: David Bori excellent, excellent, All right, folks, Well that is

1407
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 2: the end of the episode. David, thank you so much

1408
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 2: for coming on to our inaugural episode. By listening to

1409
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:37,960
Speaker 2: some of the weirdest shit we've ever talked about on

1410
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 2: this show.

1411
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:42,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is uh, I don't really I'm going to

1412
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 3: be thinking about this for weeks.

1413
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yeah, fair because your co host likes

1414
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: a curbent kbon for the Elders of Zion episodes.

1415
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, I wanted to. I was initially gonna

1416
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 2: kind of just focus on all this would have been

1417
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 2: like half a page or so, you know, just kind

1418
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 2: of summing up, here's the gist of what this believes,

1419
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 2: and then let's get to the actual cult stuff when,

1420
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 2: like you know, Ziz starts bringing in followers and the

1421
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 2: crimes start happening. But that Rolling or that Wired article

1422
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:18,840
Speaker 2: really covers all that very well. And that's the best piece.

1423
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,160
Speaker 2: Most of the journalism I've read on these guys is

1424
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 2: not very well written. It's not very good. It does

1425
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 2: not really explain why they what they are are, why

1426
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 2: they do it. So I decided, and I'm not The

1427
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,799
Speaker 2: Wired piece is great. I know, the Wired guy knows

1428
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 2: all of the stuff that I brought up here. He

1429
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 2: just it's an article. You have editors. He left out

1430
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 2: what he thought he needed to leave out. I don't

1431
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 2: have that problem, and I wanted to really, really deeply

1432
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 2: trace exactly where this lady's how this lady's mind develops,

1433
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 2: and how that intersects with rationalism, because it's interesting and

1434
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 2: kind of important and bad.

1435
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, he's so.

1436
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 2: Anyway, thanks for having a had fuck with me, all right.

1437
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 2: That's it, everybody, goodbye.

1438
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:14,040
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1439
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:17,680
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1440
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1441
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1442
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1443
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1444
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards