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Speaker 1: Hey want to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is

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Speaker 1: all Ball.

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Speaker 2: This is part two of our talk with John Higgins,

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Speaker 2: who is now retired.

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Speaker 1: From game officiating.

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Speaker 2: Was one of the most well regarded, well known and

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Speaker 2: by fans I think disliked officials in college basketball. And

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Speaker 2: if he listen to part one, you'd know why because

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Speaker 2: he wasn't scared to make the big call on the road.

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Speaker 2: He's got the sandy brown hair, and of course he

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Speaker 2: talked to us about his yoga pants and why he

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Speaker 2: wore those.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot to them. I think you'll really enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Part two, where we start to talk about a little

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Speaker 2: bit more about officiating and what he wishes he could

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Speaker 2: change about the game, how he would do it if

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Speaker 2: he put together a rule book, and does he miss

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Speaker 2: it now with his first year where he's not officiating

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Speaker 2: college games, what's it like to officiate in the Final four?

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Speaker 1: All these things upcoming.

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Speaker 2: We had a crazy weekend in college basketball where Michigan

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Speaker 2: State kind of out of nowhere figured it out for

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Speaker 2: a day against Baylor. But the bigger one to me

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Speaker 2: that's we're talking about is Bronnie James. Bronnie had five points,

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Speaker 2: came out the bench, USC gets stopped by Auburn, and

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Speaker 2: I kind of circled around something which appears to be

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Speaker 2: obvious to me.

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Speaker 1: Now, are there other factors? Right? We don't have a

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Speaker 1: control groups. We don't really really know as far as

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Speaker 1: the case study.

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Speaker 2: The fact is is last year at Sierra Canyon, Sierra

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Speaker 2: Kenny wasn't very good. And when I say not very good,

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Speaker 2: I don't mean they're blow of five hundred. But they

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Speaker 2: played Notre Dame, sure mikes under Dame four times, lost

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Speaker 2: all four times, didn't beat any of the good teams

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Speaker 2: in their league. And he had just an okay senior season.

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Speaker 2: And I think you know, Bronnie in his defense handles

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Speaker 2: all the pressure, all the attention quite well. But one

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Speaker 2: of the things that's made him in is he's not

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Speaker 2: really a leader on a point guard, doesn't really take command,

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Speaker 2: just kind of plays. He's what I would call blend

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Speaker 2: a player. He blends in. He's a chameleon. He can

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Speaker 2: fit in kind of anywhere, and he's fine at it.

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Speaker 2: But considering that Jonathan Jravoni put him as the tenth

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Speaker 2: rate of prospect in all of basketball, that's what that's

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Speaker 2: not a blend player spot. And again, this is not

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Speaker 2: Bronnie's fault. I don't even think it's Lebron's fault. Yes,

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Speaker 2: Lebron James tweeted out that he's better than NBA players.

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Speaker 2: He's not, it's not close. But he's also a dad, right,

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Speaker 2: That's how dads view their kids. I coach youth basketball,

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Speaker 2: and we get done with the tournament without any without

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Speaker 2: any chance to breathe. I get a text from every

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Speaker 2: dad and they all want to know why their kid

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Speaker 2: didn't play more that their kid is awesome, their kid

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Speaker 2: is special.

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Speaker 1: That's part of what we do as dads.

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Speaker 2: We love our kids, we try and protect our kids,

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Speaker 2: but we also want to promote our kids, and we

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Speaker 2: view our kids on a higher level than maybe even

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Speaker 2: they're able to achieve. But the overhyping of him and

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Speaker 2: the throngs of fans and all that stuff, I think

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Speaker 2: it makes it harder for Bronnie, but maybe even anything

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Speaker 2: harder for his teammates. I mean, like there's no real

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Speaker 2: case study there. But if you if we start with

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Speaker 2: Sierra Canyon last year, and then in addition to Sierra Canyon,

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Speaker 2: we go to I don't know this year's USC team

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Speaker 2: they're not good, but they.

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Speaker 1: Should be better than they are.

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Speaker 2: And the question becomes, is one reason they're not as

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Speaker 2: good as they should be because of all the hype

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Speaker 2: surrounding Bronnie James. I don't actually know the answer to that,

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Speaker 2: but I can suspect that it doesn't make it easy.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's just not I mean, consider your boogie, Ellis,

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Speaker 2: you're in your fifth year as a senior. You're like

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Speaker 2: Bronnie James afore McDonald's all American.

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Speaker 1: I played. This is his third school and he just

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Speaker 1: wants to go out and hoop.

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Speaker 2: Then you have Isaiah Collier, who I'm sure loves the

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Speaker 2: extra added attention. And maybe it's that Isaiah Collier doesn't

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Speaker 2: really guard anybody. Not a great shooter. I don't think

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Speaker 2: he's the number one prospect, but that's how Cavoni had

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Speaker 2: him raided. Others about him rated that as well. It's

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons I love college basketball. Kind of

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Speaker 2: exposedes what you do and what you don't do nearly

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Speaker 2: as well. Anyway, point being that we don't know so

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Speaker 2: much about what has made this USC team, I guess

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Speaker 2: you could say underachieved, but the truth is they were

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Speaker 2: a preseason Top twenty team. They do have some talent,

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Speaker 2: and yet you look at all the big games they've lost,

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Speaker 2: you know, except to start the year when I think

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Speaker 2: they beat k State at k State was not whole

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Speaker 2: at that point in time, and then of course they

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Speaker 2: lost to the Long Beach State at home, and Lombia.

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Speaker 1: State is not having a great year. Dan Munson's under

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Speaker 1: some pressure.

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Speaker 2: And yes it was the biggest game for Long Beach

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Speaker 2: State all year, considering is Brownie's debut and Lebron was there.

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Speaker 2: But as we look to try and figure out, we

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Speaker 2: know who's good, right Arizona, Purdue, those teams are outstanding, Yukon, Kansas, Kentucky,

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Speaker 2: most of the usuals.

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma's a surprising team. We'll talk about them in a second.

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Speaker 2: But to me, it's really interesting to watch how all

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Speaker 2: of this hype affects Ronnie James, and maybe more importantly,

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Speaker 2: doesn't affect Ronnie James.

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Speaker 1: He's used to it, he deals with it, He's dealt

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Speaker 1: with his entire life.

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Speaker 2: It's how does it affect usc because it really negatively

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Speaker 2: impacted Sierra Canyon last year. If there's a surprise team

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Speaker 2: in college basketball, it's probably Oklahoma. Now they have ten

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Speaker 2: new players, but it should be pointing out that two

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Speaker 2: of their returners, where there are two returners are their

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Speaker 2: point guard and their center. So you do bring back

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Speaker 2: some of your coach, your culture. But you know, Jay

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Speaker 2: McCollum as is just such a dynamic player as a

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Speaker 2: combo guard, transfers in from Sienna, and he's a guy

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Speaker 2: who can take Milo's off the ball and can also

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Speaker 2: play to guard himself.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they bring in Jalen Moore, who is.

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Speaker 2: A nice player, hasn't played a ton of basketball from

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Speaker 2: Georgia Tech. Play them at the four, you know, they

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Speaker 2: play oh Way at the three, or sometimes they switch

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Speaker 2: the two oh Ways. A great brother plays in the

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Speaker 2: in the NFL, and he's a dynamic athlete, albeit really

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Speaker 2: fifteen feet and in as kind of an undersized three

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Speaker 2: to four if you will.

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Speaker 1: They have a nice they have a nice team.

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Speaker 2: They bring up bring off the bench kid named Darth

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Speaker 2: Hard who transferred in from Utah Valley, a great shooter,

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Speaker 2: and they just have a nice mix of six, seven,

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Speaker 2: eight guys. Now they have not been pushed and if

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Speaker 2: you look at who they've played, you know, on paper,

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Speaker 2: normally Iowa atact of a win, right, but I was

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Speaker 2: down this year.

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Speaker 1: Let's just be honest.

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Speaker 2: North Carolina is a big game for them as they

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Speaker 2: play Wednesday on the road against the Tar Heels, who

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Speaker 2: are old, who are.

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Speaker 1: Experience, with the suception of Elie Cadoo, who's.

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Speaker 2: A freshman who reclassified, but he's actually the age of

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Speaker 2: a college freshman. I just I look at Oklahoma and

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Speaker 2: I think there's a surprise team. But I do wonder

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Speaker 2: what happens now that they played Remember the tougher teams

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Speaker 2: that they played again on paper, Iowa USC Iowa not

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Speaker 2: particularly good or down at least lost four seniors from

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Speaker 2: last year. USC who we've talked about it's been disappointing.

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Speaker 2: And Arkansas, who if you saw him against Kentucky, you

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Speaker 2: think they're great, but if you see him on any.

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Speaker 1: Other night, you're like, they're just okay. They lost a

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Speaker 1: lot from last year and playing a lot of young guys.

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Speaker 2: Now they played North Carolina and then you know, you

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Speaker 2: get in the league play and it gets real.

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Speaker 1: I think Oklahoma's pretty good.

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Speaker 2: They're better than I thought, but I'm not sure how

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Speaker 2: they handle the adversity of losing. Porter Mooser is a

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Speaker 2: tremendous coach, and he's playing a different style, much more

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Speaker 2: up tempo, much more in your face defensively. But the

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Speaker 2: question is always what happens when the level of competition

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Speaker 2: gets raised. Does a team that doesn't really have any

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Speaker 2: sort of culture and structure because it's so new from

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Speaker 2: last year, how do they do when they lose a game.

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Speaker 1: We'll see, We'll see if they do lose in Chapel Hill.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's get you to part two of All

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Speaker 2: Ball with John Hickins. Well, okay, so back in this

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Speaker 2: time you were, I mean, one thing about the Big Eight.

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Speaker 1: Back then, you couldn't fly at all these spots, right, So.

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Speaker 2: Give me the give me the hairriest trip you can

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Speaker 2: remember from the old Big Eight days.

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Speaker 3: It was probably on an ice road. There was two

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Speaker 3: lane back from Oma to Stillwater. Actually, uh, just there

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Speaker 3: was two lanes going from here to Well from which

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Speaker 3: you taught to Oakham to Stillwater. And it took like

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Speaker 3: nine ten hours on ice covered robes, just thick of ice. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And and I actually left the night before and stayed

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Speaker 3: the night in York, Nebraska, and it was uh because

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Speaker 3: I knew it was going to be bad. And then

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Speaker 3: it was this snow and there's ice on the ground.

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Speaker 3: It was brutal. I actually drove my truck, my flourhow

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Speaker 3: drive truck, and that was vehicles off the road everywhere.

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Speaker 3: And I brought uh, the guy that works for me.

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Speaker 3: He came with me, uh, and it was that was

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Speaker 3: talking about treacherous. I got there maybe fifteen minutes before

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Speaker 3: the game started, but I worked a game.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever miss a game because of travel?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have, Like flights are canceled. I was going

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Speaker 3: to Fresdent once and I got fogged up, fogged in

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Speaker 3: and I couldn't make it midway. They turned around and

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Speaker 3: went back, and yeah, I missed. I've missed a couple

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Speaker 3: of games, but not many compared to how many games

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Speaker 3: I've done over my over my years, missing games because

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Speaker 3: of because of weather or something happened to playing only

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Speaker 3: maybe a couple of times.

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Speaker 2: The NCAA tournament right now, that's how you guys are

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Speaker 2: truly evaluated, as you find out in terms of gain

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Speaker 2: respect nationally.

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Speaker 1: When was your first NCAA tournament game?

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Speaker 3: It was ninety four, Yeah, ninety four, and I was

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Speaker 3: scared to death. Yeah, I was very young. I was

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Speaker 3: only a couple of years into it, two three, four

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Speaker 3: years into it and I got my first call. Back then,

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Speaker 3: they used to send you a packet in the mail

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Speaker 3: FedEx packet and uh, now was that was crazy? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What was the game?

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Speaker 3: It was a one sixteen game in Memphis, Tennessee and

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Speaker 3: the old Pyramid shoot. I I don't remember the teams.

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Speaker 3: I remember I was with, uh Donaghee was that Tim

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Speaker 3: Dunnage's dad? And I can't think of the I can't

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Speaker 3: thank the other fish I was with, but I remember

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Speaker 3: boom Rabin Boomervan was there and he was the observer

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Speaker 3: and he said, he said, it looked like you had

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Speaker 3: ship in your pants done, and I did. Back then,

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Speaker 3: you were I mean you were scared. I mean the

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Speaker 3: insub A tournament a big you're a big boy, and

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Speaker 3: once you once you get to that ncuble A tournament,

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Speaker 3: you're like you felt like you've made it. And now

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Speaker 3: it takes a while to move from one sixteen game

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Speaker 3: to a eight nine game or seven eight game or

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Speaker 3: what have you. But it's that was that was nerve

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Speaker 3: nerve wrecking, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: Now, were you still going to the camps at this

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Speaker 2: time or did you only go the one time.

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Speaker 3: I just want it one time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Nowadays guys go to ten, fifteen to twenty camps before

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Speaker 3: they ever get thought of because it's very competitive. There's

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Speaker 3: one hundred There was one hundred and forty four people

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Speaker 3: at the n C Double A Academy this year. There

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Speaker 3: was a you know, they put one hundred guys at

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Speaker 3: each camp and it's tough now that I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: you get two, three, four guys out of that camp

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Speaker 3: that you may hire and may have a chance to

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Speaker 3: be good enough, and out of those maybe one of

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Speaker 3: those guys will ever ever make it.

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Speaker 2: And so what do you better to do now that

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Speaker 2: you're hiring? What are you looking for? What is your

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Speaker 2: what is your what.

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Speaker 1: Is your eye catch? Because the rest of us we

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Speaker 1: don't really know what you're what we're looking at? What

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Speaker 1: we're looking at?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's I would say that a lot of

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Speaker 2: people would just say, like, hey, if I don't actually

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Speaker 2: notice the referees, that's when they're at their best.

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Speaker 1: But that's not necessarily what you're looking what?

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Speaker 3: What are you?

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Speaker 1: What are you looking for?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 3: Guys has guys he looks the part number one, he's poised,

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Speaker 3: he's consistent uh any and he's an he can community

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Speaker 3: communicate in toughness. If you talk to coaches, the one

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Speaker 3: thing they say on at least what in my role now,

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Speaker 3: one thing they say to me is consistency, consistency, consistency

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Speaker 3: and communication. That's it. That's all they want, consistency and

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Speaker 3: communication because they know we're going to kick calls. We're

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Speaker 3: going to kick them and we'll do it both ways,

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Speaker 3: and that's the way it is. But that's what they want.

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Speaker 3: And I want guys that that fit that role. And

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Speaker 3: I want tough guys too. I want guys that have

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Speaker 3: courage to make the tough call in the tough situation.

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Speaker 3: And it's tough to see that at camps. So you

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Speaker 3: know that's why I like Now I'm beating the beating

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Speaker 3: the road and trying to find those guys that at

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Speaker 3: h in in in games, and I'm working it. It's

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Speaker 3: not the easiest to deal in the world, but well,

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Speaker 3: we'll get them. We'll find them.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So your first Final four was when UH two.

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Speaker 3: I was in Detroit two thousand and I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I don't remember all that stuff. I don't have like

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Speaker 3: a wall where I have all the final scores and

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Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But it was Detroit. Okay, yeah, what are you?

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Speaker 2: How did you Okay, so this is not FedEx Packett.

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Speaker 2: How did you find out you're doing the Pottle four?

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Speaker 3: A phone call? Yeah, a phone call. They call you

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Speaker 3: and say, hey, we'd be interested working on the Vinyl

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Speaker 3: four court. Yeah of course not yeah, yeah, but I remember,

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Speaker 3: I remember and John Adams come and said, hey, just

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Speaker 3: no pressure. There's only you know, seventy thousand people out

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Speaker 3: in the stands and maybe seventy million watching it on TV.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, well, thanks a lot. So you go through

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Speaker 3: that motions. But once you know, you know, once you

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Speaker 3: get to that final four, and you know, once the

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Speaker 3: ball goes up, it's just it's it's another game. Really,

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Speaker 3: it's just another game.

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Speaker 1: But now is it harder?

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Speaker 2: Spatially because you know, when you if you've been up

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Speaker 2: on that court, it's a little different when you're playing,

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Speaker 2: specially as as an official.

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Speaker 3: It's the same, it's the same. It Actually it feels

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Speaker 3: like it's a bigger court. It really does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 3: It just feels like it's you just have way more

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Speaker 3: room everywhere.

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Speaker 2: What about the difference of understanding the magnitude of calls

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Speaker 2: late in games. I know that, like, look, you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to write a book, you're supposed to be consistent call

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Speaker 2: in the first five minutes of the call in the

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Speaker 2: last five minutes. But but I mean you you there's

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Speaker 2: been you know, there's a call here, a call there,

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Speaker 2: which which can dramatically change the.

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Speaker 1: History of the sport.

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Speaker 2: So what is your what is your philosophy on last

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Speaker 2: five minutes or even last minute of a game, especially

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Speaker 2: championship level games, in how you officiate them.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a really good question. Also that the you know,

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Speaker 3: could people say you always hear people say let that

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Speaker 3: let the players decide it. Well, if a guy hits

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Speaker 3: a guy in the arm on a shot at the

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Speaker 3: end of the game, and it's not much of a

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Speaker 3: hit to the arm, just brushes his elbow like they

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Speaker 3: try to do, you don't call it. Guess what that

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Speaker 3: affects the out come to the game? You don't call it.

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Speaker 3: You know people say, oh, that's not much of a foul, Well,

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Speaker 3: it is a file. So if you don't call it,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna affect one team or the other. If you

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Speaker 3: call it, it's going to affect that the team that

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Speaker 3: the foul is on. If you don't, it's chops away.

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Speaker 3: So you just got to You just got to call

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Speaker 3: it as as you see it, I guess, and it's

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Speaker 3: very difficult.

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Speaker 1: You can't.

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Speaker 3: The one thing I would say is don't get the

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Speaker 3: big stuff. Don't let the little stuff, the stuff that's

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Speaker 3: inconsequential go. I would say, you know, if there's something

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Speaker 3: away for the ball, you could talk the guy out of,

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Speaker 3: or you could pass on it. And I would probably

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Speaker 3: say that would be one of the things that you

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Speaker 3: would you would try to do that, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: or put a put a third file on the first

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Speaker 3: half on their best player, or that's that's a gray

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Speaker 3: area play, that's that's something that you could pass on.

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Speaker 2: So you know, so you do know if it's a

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Speaker 2: star player, you do know, like he's got too well, you.

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Speaker 3: Got to be smart. But you're not going to pass

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Speaker 3: on a what's a legitimate file, No, you're not going to.

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Speaker 3: But if you got to say you have you have

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Speaker 3: the star guy in there and it's something that is great,

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Speaker 3: if you could pass on it without anything being affected,

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Speaker 3: I think that's what you should do to keep those

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Speaker 3: people in game. Now, if you have the fourteenth player

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Speaker 3: in the game in and he's a knucklehead, and it's like, oh, coach,

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Speaker 3: I've said the referees all the time, who do you

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Speaker 3: want in the thirteenth fourteenth player? You want in the

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Speaker 3: top five guys? Well, you think the coach would want

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Speaker 3: and you would want the best players in the game.

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Speaker 3: So if you could kind of referee on that philosophy,

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Speaker 3: that's you'll be better off in the long run.

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Speaker 4: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in

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Speaker 4: the nation yet. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports

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Speaker 4: Radio dot com and within the iHeart Radio search f

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Speaker 4: s R to listen live.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that have changed over time.

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Speaker 2: I would tell you one of the things that's changed

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Speaker 2: for the worst over time is I think you mentioned

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Speaker 2: Steve Wilmer, and we you and I have discussed him,

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Speaker 2: who was just just a delightful man, right and always.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure somewhere he's listening to this, hiking up his

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Speaker 2: pants as we as we speak. The pants actually, but

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Speaker 2: I actually learned something from him. It was so my

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Speaker 2: first year I was at Notre Dame. We had Jim

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Speaker 2: Burr and we had all those big East East Coast officials.

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Speaker 2: But when I went to Oklahoma State, I remember one

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Speaker 2: time the ball went out of bounds, like off of

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Speaker 2: us and but we I felt like I got foul

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Speaker 2: and it was a time out and I'm sitting there

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Speaker 2: having discussion with him, and he goes, I missed the foul,

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Speaker 2: so I'm going to give you the ball even though

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Speaker 2: it's not your ball, right, which is good officiating, right,

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Speaker 2: Like I screwed up, but instead of I can't go back,

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Speaker 2: so instead of going back, it's just going to be

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Speaker 2: your ball, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But it's now with replays, it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: do right.

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Speaker 3: It's it's hard.

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Speaker 1: There's things you can't go back.

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Speaker 2: Have replays made it better or worse from your perspective.

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Speaker 3: My opinion, I think it's made it worse just just

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Speaker 3: because what you know, everybody wants the refereence to be

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Speaker 3: perfect when we're not going to be perfect, because if

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Speaker 3: players aren't perfect and the coaches aren't perfect, but they

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Speaker 3: want us to be they want us to be perfect.

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Speaker 3: You could do that now in a twenty thirty point

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Speaker 3: game or at the especially at the end of the game.

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Speaker 3: But with video replay now, if you don't get it right.

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Speaker 3: Everybody tortures you for getting it wrong. So you you

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Speaker 3: you that's the part that's changed that I don't like you.

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Speaker 3: That's why. That's how we I was taught how to

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Speaker 3: efficiate games like that like Wilmer would do. Uh in

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Speaker 3: all the top guys would do they would do it

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Speaker 3: that way. You know, there's guys over the back a

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Speaker 3: little bit ball goes off his hand. They didn't, they

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Speaker 3: didn't call the file, just gave the ball back and

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Speaker 3: that just like you just said, that's that. I think

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Speaker 3: that's I think that's okay. But in in nowadays with

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Speaker 3: the video replay and everybody wants everybody to be perfect,

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Speaker 3: it's it's it's really really hard to do. Young guys can't.

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Speaker 3: Young guys can't. Young guys can't do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely, not.

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Speaker 2: A lot has changed, Okay in this in the time

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Speaker 2: in which the thirty years when she became the most

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Speaker 2: known rapt in the country, I'd say the the charge

400
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Speaker 2: on the dribbler when the guy's dribbling the basketball and

401
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Speaker 2: he takes a little contact, because the charge under the

402
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Speaker 2: basket has always been a bang bang play.

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Speaker 1: It's always hard one.

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Speaker 2: And some of the evaluation of it has changed, but

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Speaker 2: what has most change is guys you know, following like

406
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Speaker 2: fading fading goats when they're uh when you're driving. How

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Speaker 2: do you what is your opinion of that, because again,

408
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Speaker 2: like you, you don't want the offensive player to do

409
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Speaker 2: the Heisman and just clear out. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: it does feel like the defense is in many ways

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Speaker 2: getting an advantage.

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Speaker 1: It's hard for the offensive player. What are your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on that that type of play.

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Speaker 3: It's funny you talk about that. We're in our in

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Speaker 3: all of our we've had three now four teaching videos

416
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Speaker 3: go out to all of our guys, and we're talking

417
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Speaker 3: about this path we call a path play where the

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Speaker 3: offensive guy has a path to the basket and the

419
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Speaker 3: defensive guy is cutting this guy's path off where he's

420
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Speaker 3: really really not legal. He's on the side and not

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Speaker 3: in the front of him, two feet facing the opponent,

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Speaker 3: and there's some contact to We're having a really hard time.

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Speaker 3: We're putting way.

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Speaker 5: Too many files on the offensive guy when there's a

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Speaker 5: little bit of contact and he has an off his arm,

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Speaker 5: his opposite his dribble hand just out there to his

427
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Speaker 5: guide arm or whatever you want to call it, and there's.

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Speaker 3: Some contact, we're calling that offensive files. I think we're

429
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Speaker 3: wrong on that play, and we're teaching that that in

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Speaker 3: order for that defensive guy. Like if I get my

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Speaker 3: head and shoulders on the side of you and the

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Speaker 3: defense is on the left side of me, and I'm

433
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Speaker 3: going past you, that guy he's no longer in legal

434
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Speaker 3: guardian position.

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Speaker 5: But we are bailing out the offense or the.

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Speaker 3: Defensive guy by calling offensive file on a little contact.

437
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 3: So we're teaching it where the defense has got to

438
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 3: be two feet facing your opponent in front of him.

439
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 3: So on a primary defender, we're talking about, not second

440
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 3: not the secondary defender, which is going to be doesn't

441
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 3: matter what how they do that, it's going to be.

442
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 3: It's going to be. You know, whether it's it's it's

443
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 3: the last plant foot or if it's to gather or

444
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 3: any of that kind of stuff, that's not that's going

445
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: to be controversial matter what. But the other player that

446
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 3: you're talking about is path plays. And I think over

447
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 3: the last so many years we've been getting we've been

448
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 3: calling way too many offensive falls.

449
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: Agreed, Agreed, that said, what is your favorite You've mentioned

450
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: all great reps have a little prick in them right.

451
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: What's your What was always your favorite call? To make

452
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,400
Speaker 2: you know in terms of the because I I've always

453
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 2: I remember my first time Notre Dame won a big

454
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 2: East game. We played Saint John's in the Garden and

455
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 2: they weren't very good. They were it was that was

456
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 2: Felipe Lopez cover Sports Illustrated and uh Mahoney was the coach,

457
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: and they were.

458
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: Getting booed at home, and we weren't very good, but

459
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: we were.

460
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: We were up the whole game and they went to

461
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 2: a one three one late in the game, and I

462
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: got really excited. I was just a freshman, and I

463
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: dribble over to the side to make like a fancy

464
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: cross court pass to Pat Garrity for a layup, and

465
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 2: I step out of bounds, and I think it was

466
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: Jim Burrn. He goes and he touches the sideline, like

467
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: bends down, touches the sideline and points the other way.

468
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: I remember thinking to myself, if I was a ref,

469
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: that would be my favorite one to call the old

470
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 2: touch the sideline and point the other way some like charge.

471
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: Everybody's got their own kind of signature flamboyant call. What

472
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: was your favorite?

473
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: Probably I don't know. I always get shipped for my

474
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 3: block call or my offensive foul call. I get shit

475
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 3: on that from other referees. Not most people wouldn't notice it,

476
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: but for the other referees, they'd give me shit on

477
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 3: that play. What do they say? You do?

478
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: What they what do they say? What's what's the Higgins? Like? Oh,

479
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: you did the Higgins? What's the Higgins?

480
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 3: Well, I'm really slow at the black call. And then

481
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 3: the other one, I would I would just point like

482
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 3: a like a I've never I wouldn't stop the clap

483
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 3: on my fist most of the time. I would just

484
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: I would just give a little like a like a

485
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 3: little punch out to the offensive file. The other one,

486
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: I would give three point signal. Guys would give me

487
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: crap about. Instead of going like three three point, go

488
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: like this, I would go like this with my fingers.

489
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 3: So everybody did always make fun of me on that one.

490
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 3: So okay, now that's changed the mechanic now where like

491
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: my bosses would always say, hey, uh, you need to

492
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 3: have some hustle, get to the table, run to the

493
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: table when you report your files. I never did that.

494
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 3: I was walked. I always thought it looked so much

495
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 3: better and so much more professional when you walk to

496
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: the table like you had full of confidence in your call.

497
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: That was one of the things that they changed. The

498
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 3: mechanic now now everything you can walk to the table now. So,

499
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: but the block charts play were probably the ones that

500
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 3: were kind of like whatever they call my signature Higgins

501
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: block charge play.

502
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: Did you work on it on the mirror? Did you

503
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: want did you want to look a certain way?

504
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: No?

505
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: I just it just evolved over the years. I think

506
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: I used to. I used to when I used to

507
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: do offensive files. I used to call it and I

508
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: lift my back leg up and I'm like, yeah, that

509
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 3: looks like shit, I ain't I'm not doing that anymore. Well,

510
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 3: I saw it on TV a few times, like, uh,

511
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: let's just act like, don't you don't have to oversell

512
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 3: that play, So don't oversell it. And I would and

513
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: I didn't. So I was more slow and kind of

514
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: laid back, and I act like it was simple call.

515
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 3: So it so didn't look like I was trying to

516
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 3: sell the call.

517
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: Got it.

518
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a couple of things that have changed

519
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: during your time officiating. One is the game has become

520
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: so much more spread out right, but you no longer

521
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: used to have a lot of hand fighting and pushing

522
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 2: down low. Now it's it's it's a different game in

523
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 2: that you have the shot goes up and because everybody's

524
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: spread out, you have guys kind of sprinting to a rebound, right,

525
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: and so it's the the angles are different, the physicalities.

526
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: It is still very physical, especially on the boards, but

527
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: in a different sort of way.

528
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: How has that change how you officiate the game?

529
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: Because the like I said, the angles are different, the contact,

530
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: Like you know, guys are running in from the three

531
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: point line to go rebound, so you kind of have

532
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: a running start if you will.

533
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: How does that change what you do and how you

534
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: do it?

535
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you're you're right. Every every single game play

536
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 3: now is pick and roll, pick and roll, pick and

537
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 3: roll of the up of the key. Uh and then

538
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: once the ball goes up, your guy guy's coming from everywhere.

539
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: So you got to you got to have a broad

540
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 3: vision all three you guy used to be the underneath

541
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 3: guy would be the guy that would get the files

542
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: on the on the rebounds. Now you've got to have

543
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 3: all three guys involved in that front core. You can't

544
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: have that trail guy backing out not being involved in

545
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 3: the play. Because in a college game and the ball

546
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: goes up, you know, it's like a it's a two

547
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 3: pit bulls going at it. It's six seven guys, eight

548
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: guys going after the ball, and it's brutal where it

549
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: used to be idiot, you know, like well opposite the NBA,

550
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 3: the NBA guy ball go shot up. You don't have

551
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 3: six guys at the board. You just have one or

552
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 3: two guys and that's it. There's a ball and nobody

553
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 3: followed anybody and it goes the other way. In a

554
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 3: college game, it is, it's it's crazy if you don't,

555
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: if you don't widen your your your vision and watch

556
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: the just the rebounders and and or where the ball

557
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: is coming from or where it's going. You you you

558
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: got to you got a big problem. But it's uh,

559
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: it's you know, back in the day, we have advantage

560
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: disadvantage here. You always heard that, right, you have to

561
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 3: if you don't use that philosophy now in rebounding, you're

562
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: gonna you can have a file on every single play

563
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 3: on rebounding in college, you can have it on every play.

564
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: So you've got to have an idea on where you know,

565
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: where's where's the rebound come from, because you can call

566
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: it on both offense and defensive guys. It's really hard.

567
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: That's probably the hardest part of the game that's changed.

568
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: I mean, it's got really physical as far as that

569
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: part goes. The outside hand checking, we call that stuff

570
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: that's ten one four, we call that stuff that's not

571
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: nearly as physical. But the inside when the rebounding part

572
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: I think is physical, really physical.

573
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: The other part that that has changed is I feel

574
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: like it's as a more physical in the low post.

575
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: And so in college basketball, I tell coaches all the

576
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 2: time like I wouldn't throw it in there, you know,

577
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: like I just because one, you know, the use of

578
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: analytics that tells you that's a that's not an efficient shot.

579
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: But two one of the reasons I think it's an

580
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: inefficient shot is in trying to eliminate all of the hands.

581
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: Guys are smart now about using their bodies. And I

582
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: would also say that, you know, when I when I

583
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: first started playing high level basketball, I was taught about verticality.

584
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: But there was a change.

585
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: It was about ten years ago when all of a sudden,

586
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: you guys started really allowing players to use verticality. So

587
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: again the difference is it's I think it's harder to

588
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: score now because one players are better and smarter, not

589
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: trying to block everything, and they're using verticality. But two,

590
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: they're also, especially in post play, they're kind of using

591
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: their lower body that you can't see, and it's really

592
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: hard for big guys to score in there. What do

593
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: you think of the changes in that one use of

594
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: verticality and to the physicality in a low post.

595
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: They've also changed where you could you know, if the

596
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: offensive guy it's you know, the offensive guys trying to

597
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: back you down, you have the right is the defensive

598
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 3: guy to use your form to hold them back? So

599
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's you're right about the defense and

600
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 3: the post play, because when two guys are coming together,

601
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 3: it's hard to determine who has the who has the

602
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 3: offensive file, and who is, uh, you know, who's committing

603
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: the fop the offense or defense. So who are you

604
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: gonna penalize? You gotta you gotta first determine who initiated

605
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 3: the contact, so that and that's really hard to do

606
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 3: if they come together and they both hit and they

607
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: boom boom, who you're gonna call foul on you call

608
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: following one guy. One guy can be pissed off, called

609
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: the other guy. The other guys can be pissed off.

610
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: So if it's equal pressure, it's If it's it's it's

611
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: about having excess pressure and displacing the offense or displacing

612
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: the defense. If you can think of the displacement part

613
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: of it, I think you could officiate the play fairly.

614
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: I'm not you know, it's really really hard to take

615
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: out if their two bodies are bumping, who who's who

616
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 3: is in the right, who's in the wrong, And it's

617
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: very it's it's one of the difficult, most difficult parts

618
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: of the game, uh to officiate on. You know, who's legal,

619
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: who's not legal, who's just who's displacing? It's really hard

620
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: to just to determine that.

621
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: When did you When did you change to the the

622
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: like yoga stat like the stretchy pants?

623
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: When did that happen? You? Probably?

624
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 3: I don't know. I went to UH oh probably ten

625
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 3: years ago, nine years ago. Well, the pants back in

626
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 3: the day were terrible. They're awful, but now they're way

627
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: way better. We I work, I worked public rerecs or

628
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: little lemons for the last five ten years, and there's

629
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: so much more comfortable than the old zenz a belt.

630
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 3: I mean it's like night and day better.

631
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: How did you not get any nil out of this thing?

632
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: Like if you didn't, I should oh, I should have.

633
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: I mean you shut it down when you you should

634
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: have had nil?

635
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: You should have.

636
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: There's all these you mentioned public Wreck, there's all these

637
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: different brands of those comfortable.

638
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: Movable So okay, so what are the rules? What are

639
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: the rules? You have to have all black sneakers and

640
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: all black pants?

641
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: Is there any rule other than I gotta have all

642
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: black stinkers and all black plants and the pants have

643
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: to come down, you know, to the shoe?

644
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: Is that?

645
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: Basically?

646
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: Is that? What? What are the actual rules.

647
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: For black shoes, black pants? The regular N cub A shirt, however,

648
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: there is a little tiny logo in the back of

649
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: the manusfacturer that makes that shirt is on the back

650
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: of it. So you know we proposed actually, when you

651
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 3: say that, a year ago, some guys in that Southeast

652
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 3: acc talked about getting there getting an NIL for referees basically,

653
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: so why can't if they can do all that kind

654
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: of stuff, why can't we put a logo on our shirt.

655
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: But that hasn't come to it. Nothing's come to fruition

656
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: yet for those guys.

657
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: So this call, this call is brought to you by

658
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: Lulu Lemmons.

659
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: That's right.

660
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: Everything You're right, everything else is sold in the sport.

661
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 3: Why do you see Clark on Kaitlin Clark's on national

662
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 3: ads on TV. Now, it's unbelievable. It's making a killing.

663
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: Outside of so so you went to him. Now do

664
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: other rests come up to you?

665
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 3: We're like, oh, yeah, there's a bunch of dudes wearing them.

666
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, yeah, you were the first.

667
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 3: I was the first guy that I know of. I mean,

668
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 3: you can ask, you can ask a bunch of referees,

669
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 3: and I mean I remember back in the day when

670
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 3: I was a young referee. Every were those disgusting black

671
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: polyester pants from I don't know whom and them two.

672
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 3: I went, why don't we Actually, my brother in law,

673
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 3: it just owns a clothing store. Normally he went to

674
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 3: I went to the pleated pants and people would, oh,

675
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: they gave me. Some of the referees gave me so

676
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: much crap. But there was so more, much more comfortable

677
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: than they were. Uh Now, But and then all of

678
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 3: a sudden, Wilmer started wearing him, and Mike Tommy O'Neil

679
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: started wearing them, and and now everybody started wearing these

680
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: pleated pants. And then now they've gone back the way

681
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: and gone to the straight pants. And then that's when

682
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 3: all the straight pants I went to the to the uh,

683
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: to the little Lemons and public wreck pants classic.

684
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're a style made, style made right. Uh what's

685
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: his name?

686
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 3: Uh?

687
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: Was it forte? What he he changed the whistle? Right,

688
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: the fox forty whistle?

689
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was?

690
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: That was That's That's the only other guy I know

691
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 2: who's known known for.

692
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: Changing any changing the style, and yeah, changing changing the style.

693
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: Your funniest or most interesting in your best story for

694
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: running a guy for throwing a coach out, oh.

695
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: Jee, probably probably when Fran McCafferty. We threw up Fran

696
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 3: at Northern Iowa and his wife we we his wife.

697
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know anything about Fran and family, just.

698
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: So you know.

699
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: Okay, So when I went to Notre Dame, huh, Fran

700
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: recruited me. Okay, and his wife at the time, he

701
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: Margaret was an assistant on the women's team.

702
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: She was the all time leading rebounder at Notre Dame

703
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: at the time.

704
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: I don't know if she still lives, but and here's

705
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: how they were just dating at the time. And what

706
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 2: what happened is we get done practicing and Frand would

707
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: keep him.

708
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: He would observe, like they're up at McGrath's practice.

709
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: So I just I mean like, at first, you're like, okay,

710
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: coach to coach, you're watching, and then at some point

711
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 2: I could tell what was up, and I was just like,

712
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: so I believe and you could ask Fran next time

713
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: you see him. Yeah, I believe that friend would tell you.

714
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 2: I was the first player to discover their romance. So yes,

715
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: I know a lot about.

716
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: Yes. So it's Iowa, Northern Iowa, and they weren't playing

717
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: with the with the dam and uh, Paul Jansen and

718
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 3: I and I can't remember who else was on the game. Anyway,

719
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 3: I Paul got him the first time and I whacked

720
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 3: him and threw him out. Now he you know how

721
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: he does it. He starts going crazy and uh, he's

722
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: walking like we're starting to do free throws the other

723
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 3: the other end of the court, and he's walking up

724
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: and he's trying to he's trying to get to me

725
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 3: still and the police are on him. Next you know,

726
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: his wife is coming after me and I'm out there

727
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 3: like it was a crazy thing. The world talking about

728
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 3: ultra competitive people. She is, she's like Greg Marshall's wife.

729
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 3: She was competitive. I mean she's the same exact same way. Uh.

730
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: And we've I've run him before too, but but that

731
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: was very That was a crazy uh guy we threw out.

732
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 3: Now it's funny. We talked about it at this last

733
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 3: summer where we haven't been. It got a little crazy

734
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: once in a uh in a exit not an exhibition,

735
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: but a close scrimmage at Creighton where him and I

736
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 3: were about to go to fifty cups and I said

737
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: I'm out of here because he was with some We're

738
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 3: in a close scrimmage here in Omaha, and I told

739
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: h Rasmussen that the a d And I told McDermot.

740
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: I was like, you know, this last time I had

741
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: him it didn't go so well. He doesn't like me

742
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 3: and uh and so he started in and on it

743
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: and now I'm in. I tagged in. He in on

744
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 3: our young on some young referee. I'm like, shut up,

745
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 3: stop and he said you can't talk to me like that.

746
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 3: I said, I just did. And he says, you started start.

747
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 3: The assistant coaches are holding them back. This is a

748
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 3: close scrimmage. Hold them back. I said, let him go, boys,

749
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: let him go. And Bruce came out and Greg came out,

750
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: and I said, I can't tell you what I said,

751
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: but uh, it was it.

752
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: Was what you said.

753
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 3: I said, fuck him. I told you this is going

754
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 3: to happen. Fuck him. So so, but we talked about

755
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: it this last summer when we visited in the camp

756
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 3: and again, well you've talked earlier about you know, inside

757
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 3: of it, inside the lines is way different than outside

758
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: the lines. And we had a really good conversation about it.

759
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: And then the other one was Bobby Hurley. This is

760
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: a great story. So this is I went to speak

761
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 3: to their team this year and into uh preseason, right

762
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 3: like you go around to talk to coaches and players

763
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 3: and that stuff. So he introduces me and says, oh,

764
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 3: this is John Higgins Final Four referee and blah blah,

765
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: you know all the crap. He goes, well, we're in

766
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: their theater room and he goes, hey, uh, before I

767
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: we go into him talking about new rules and mechanics

768
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 3: and stuff. He says. He says, he's I got to

769
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: show you a video. And I remember I had the

770
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: Arizona Arizona State game where I threw him out. I

771
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: was like seventy foot away. And then and he and

772
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 3: kudos to him. He goes boys, and after I whack him,

773
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 3: show the perste then whack him and run him. He

774
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 3: starts pulling off his coat and his shirt to eye

775
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: and he goes, boys, This is not how you're supposed

776
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 3: to act, just so you know, So kudos to uh,

777
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: kudos to Bobby Hurley.

778
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: There's so many of them like that, where like fr

779
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: you mentioned frand Bobby's like that too, where like you

780
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 2: sit and you watch with them and they're just so calm,

781
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: so nice and thoughtful.

782
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: Then yeah, James going different human being, totally different human being.

783
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: I mean, my conversations with Bobby Hurley now are like,

784
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: I mean, when when the lights go on, he's just

785
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: who's him? And Larry Stacey, there's guys like that when

786
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 3: the lights go on, it was it's they're a different,

787
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: different person.

788
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: Most games you've ever worked.

789
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 3: In a year, uh one hundred and five.

790
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: What what's that like on your body?

791
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: It's you know, I was a little bit younger then,

792
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 3: so it wasn't didn't feel like it was that big

793
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 3: of Actually the body is. It's the mind that's it.

794
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: It's harder on your mind than it is the body

795
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 3: because you got to be mentally. You got to be

796
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 3: mentally prepared for it. Every night I work out, and

797
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 3: the way I didn't worked out no matter, I still do.

798
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 3: I still work out four five days a week. So

799
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: I remember when I didn't have a game for two,

800
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: three four days and I came back, I felt like

801
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: I was rusty. So but again, once you work that

802
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,919
Speaker 3: many games, it's the mental part that's that's way worse

803
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: than the physical part. If you're in good shape, if

804
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 3: you're not in good shape and you you know, you

805
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: have something that's hurting you, or you got a knee

806
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: or ankle or hip or whatever, that's hard. That's really

807
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 3: hard to be focused mentally.

808
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's the that's the criticism, right is the

809
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: criticism is you guys can work as many games you want.

810
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: When you were the biggest referee in college basketball, people

811
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 2: want you on every night, and the fear is that, hey,

812
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: I got him on the fifth game in five nights

813
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: and he's not as mentally sharp. What would your pushback

814
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: be if somebody said, Hey, in our game, you weren't

815
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: as sharp because you worked the last three nights.

816
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: See I I don't. I don't buy that. I think

817
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 3: you're more. I think you're sharper because you see more plays,

818
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 3: just like you taking jump shots every single day, are

819
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 3: shooting free throws. You're sharper. The more you shoot, the

820
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 3: better you are. I think that's the way my mentality is.

821
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 3: If I were, I would say a guy works four

822
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 3: to five days a week. I think it's perfect. Again,

823
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 3: I always say it's two hours a day that you're

824
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 3: working as you're refereeing, And I don't think that's really

825
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 3: that difficult. If you are. If you're again, you got

826
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: to be mentally and physically sharp. You've got to be.

827
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: You got to. You do have to do some studying

828
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: on your teams that you play and the coaches that

829
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 3: you have, so that part of it is, you know,

830
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 3: outside the two hours. But I would rather have a

831
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: guy that's working four or five days a week than

832
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 3: the guys work once a week, because that guy isn't

833
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 3: he hasn't seen enough plays. I said to young guys. Oh,

834
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 3: you've got to keep seeing playing. You got to see plays,

835
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: You got to be and put yourself in situations because

836
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: you learn by experience, and the more experience you have,

837
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 3: the better off you are to make a decision and

838
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: tough time.

839
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 2: So something that I think you've said which I completely

840
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 2: agree with, and I and you know me, like I

841
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 2: made equip about you in an NCAA tournament game. I've

842
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: been on TV hard unofficials on a play here there.

843
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: But there's a way in which we and I don't

844
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: think it's just officials, right, government officials, teachers. How we

845
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: look at people, anybody who's in authority, police officers, our

846
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: lack of kind of societal respect for who they are

847
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: and what they what they do. You did for a

848
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: long time and I know you've been kind of outspoken

849
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: on how like, Look, the reason we have a referee

850
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: shortage is why would anybody want to put themselves in

851
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: a position where I'm actually I drive by. There's a

852
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: place where it called them where we play a weekend

853
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: or two weekends a month, and that was where you know,

854
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: you have one girl punch another girl and then the

855
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: parents go after the official. How has it changed? From

856
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 2: your perspective in terms of how people treat officials during

857
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: your thirty years of doing at the highest.

858
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 3: Level, well at the lower level, it's it's it's crazy.

859
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 3: I think it's the money part at all these tournaments,

860
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: but they put together the money part of it. People

861
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: think they can say and do what they want to

862
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 3: do because they paid for their kid to play on

863
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: this on this basketball team. So they think they have

864
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 3: the right to say what they want to say to

865
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: their to the referees, like they think that their Johnny

866
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 3: is going to be the next Michael Jordan Kevin Durant,

867
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 3: But you know, ninety nine point nine percent them aren't

868
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 3: going to be those people. It's gotten brutal compared to

869
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: the path of course. I mean back when I was

870
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 3: playing a little I mean it was cyo basketball. No

871
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: parents said it work. In fact, half the parents didn't

872
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: even come. That was just too many kids or that's

873
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 3: just what they didn't do. They dropped their kid off

874
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: and they play and be done. Now every parent's got

875
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 3: to go to everything and they got to have a

876
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 3: voice about everything, and it's unfortunate for the kids because

877
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 3: they're embarrassed kids. If you ask a kid about it

878
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 3: now and they're here kid talk about their parents that

879
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: says them to the referee or the coach. They're embarrassed

880
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 3: by it. It's gotten really bad. I mean that a

881
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 3: couple of years ago where my sixteen year old son

882
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 3: and he didn't his partner didn't show up for a game,

883
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 3: and we're refereeing some freshmans and they were really bad

884
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 3: freshmens and this kid tells me to fuck off and

885
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 3: you suck and after he followed out and he's terrible.

886
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 3: This kid couldn't play dead in a Cowboy movie and

887
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 3: he and I just I couldn't believe it. And I

888
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 3: found out his dad was a coach and he's acceptable

889
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 3: to what the kid did. Really sad.

890
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 1: Wait, so you hopped in with your son my son?

891
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 3: Yes, like it was freshman, bad freshman. It was one

892
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 3: of those summer camp things or whatever they are over

893
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 3: in Ireland, and uh and uh. I refereed the game

894
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: and it was this kid there's this team was not

895
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 3: very good, it was, but they were just beat the

896
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 3: hell out of the other team. And the other they

897
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 3: actually team came back and beat him. It wasn't the

898
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 3: team was ain't good, but this this kid just kept

899
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 3: falling and we kept calling foul and the coach started

900
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 3: saying stuff and I stopped him. I whacked him, and

901
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 3: then the kid did and I whacked him. And then

902
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 3: he as he had got his fifth fall, he walked

903
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: out his ten foot from me, flipped me off and said,

904
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: you fucking suck. This is a fourteen year old kid

905
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 3: saying that to me. I was like, oh boy, this said.

906
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: So I entered the game and uh we threw the

907
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 3: coach out and he denied that he didn't know, he

908
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,479
Speaker 3: didn't know the kid. It was crazy. It was absolutely crazy,

909
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 3: and that's sad part of our society, and that that's why,

910
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 3: that's why majority the people don't stay in refereeing.

911
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's a terrible part of our society.

912
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 2: It's the it's the your kid gets in trouble in

913
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 2: school and you find out. Do you confront the kid

914
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: and make him, you know, apologize to make change, or

915
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: do you ask the kid and then call the teacher

916
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: or call the principal like the teacher did something wrong.

917
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: That's why I do.

918
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 2: I don't know where that comes from.

919
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't have no idea where it's

920
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 3: coming from. I don't. It wasn't like that, Mike. When

921
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 3: I was growing up, we had nuns at my grade

922
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: school in high school and whatever they did that hell,

923
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,439
Speaker 3: they beat the hell out of you. And my mom

924
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 3: did never say anything to him, never, And you did

925
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: something wrong obviously. But that's that's just the society today.

926
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: I don't know why changed or how it changed, but

927
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 3: it's changed, that's for sure.

928
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: You talked about Allen Field House, what a cathedral it is.

929
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: Why does it feel like for road teams that they

930
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 2: don't get a fair end of the ship.

931
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 3: I don't know. That's a good question. I've had. People

932
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: always said, oh, you know, if you look on these

933
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 3: boards of different universities, oh, Higgins is a homer for

934
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: this guy for this tam and can't say he's a

935
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: homer for there in Oklahoma he's a homer and blah

936
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: blah blah. Every school says the same thing about officials,

937
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 3: like I used to hear that about the Kansas. The

938
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 3: funny thing is I used to get phone calls at

939
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 3: our office from people from Kansas and say, why do

940
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 3: you hate Kansas so bad? You know, they get beat

941
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 3: by Kansas State or get beat by somebody and I

942
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 3: had the game. It's just it's I don't know, I

943
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 3: don't think it's true. It's just they've had good teams,

944
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: they've had good players. I mean, you could kid deny

945
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 3: that it won national championship. They win thirty games a year.

946
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter where they play. It's just and it's

947
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 3: just like that, any team that's winning winning winning.

948
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: What is it like to with the momentum of crowds again?

949
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: All these games the home crowd gets going. You are

950
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 2: a human being. How do you how do you or

951
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: maybe how do you teach younger officials not to get

952
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: caught up in the in the crowd and the energy

953
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: and let it affect them.

954
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 3: See, I think I think just the opposite. I think

955
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 3: i'd like to, you know, if it's a tough call

956
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 3: and goes get a zum team and they're boon the

957
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: hell out of you, that kind of makes you feel good.

958
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 3: And I just I just I don't know why. It

959
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 3: just makes like, hey, screw them. I'm right on the play.

960
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 3: I don't care what they think. I'm right on the play.

961
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 3: And you know, majority of time we are right. Unfortunately

962
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 3: for them that you know, referees are you know, for

963
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 3: the most of the good ones are good eighty five

964
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: nine percent of time or pretty pretty much correct. But

965
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 3: I like that feeling the home crowd coming down on you.

966
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 3: I really do. Yeah. I mean.

967
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 2: The the only other guy who was like that that

968
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: I remember, but now I didn't like having his official

969
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 2: because I thought he had too much rabbit ears and

970
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: the little stuff was Dave Libby.

971
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: Dave Libby was the guy though that if you.

972
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: Were on a road team and the home players or

973
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: coaches or a fan pissed him off, yeah, then he

974
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 2: would you do like all right, because he was the

975
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: only guy in four years of college basketball who was

976
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: on the scanning report.

977
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 3: In the game.

978
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: Libby's doing the game. Don't say a word, don't stare

979
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: at him, don't do ship.

980
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

981
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: And by the way, my last college basketball game was

982
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 2: the Elite eight Florida beat Florida beat US.

983
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: But he he banged coach with a t and all

984
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: coach said.

985
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: Was, Dad, that's the same call you made again Oklahoma.

986
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: And it was bad, man, and it's bad, that's all

987
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: he said. And he rang them up in the NCAA tournament. Wow,

988
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:00,479
Speaker 1: uh okay, I'm.

989
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: Gonna I'm gonna put you in charge. Now you're now

990
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: you're overseeing you know, the West. First like what why? Why?

991
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: Why hang them up? Why go illustrative level?

992
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 3: That's a great question. They came to me at the

993
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 3: final four and asked me if that'd be interested. I'm like, okay, yes,

994
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 3: what is it? What?

995
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: What?

996
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 3: What's the job entail? And uh so, I you know

997
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 3: these jobs first of all, these jobs don't come open

998
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 3: very often. Uh And I just thought my wife's hald

999
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 3: have been after me for years about when are you

1000
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 3: going to give it up? What are you going to

1001
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 3: give it up? When are you gonna give it up?

1002
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know.

1003
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 3: I don't know when the time comes. And then they

1004
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 3: they this opportunity came up, and I thought, let me

1005
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 3: take a look and shot at it. And now when

1006
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 3: I don't, I don't know if I'm trying to give

1007
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 3: back or tried to just that's a good question. I

1008
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: could have go. I could have referee another three, four,

1009
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: five years. I could have I don't know.

1010
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: How much do you miss it? Yeah?

1011
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 3: I do? I do miss the court, I do. Yeah,

1012
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 3: I do miss the corp. Yeah I do. That's the

1013
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 3: fun part. I like going to the games and now,

1014
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: I say.

1015
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: Has anyone ever come like like like.

1016
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: Boxers come out of retirement and officials ever come out

1017
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 2: of retirement?

1018
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, oh yeah, I know there Mike Littlewood like

1019
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,919
Speaker 3: went to baseball coach baseball at b YU for eight

1020
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 3: ten years. He just came back two years ago. Yeah. Yeah,

1021
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 3: he's a high level official too. So yeah, you never

1022
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 3: say never. You don't know. You don't know what's going

1023
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 3: to happen well with the you know, with all what's

1024
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 3: happening in all of college sports. Who knows what's going

1025
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 3: to happen with you know, since the pack is basically

1026
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 3: dissolved after I got the job. You don't know. I

1027
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 3: don't know. I don't know what if. I don't know

1028
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 3: if I may have a job next year. I don't

1029
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 3: know any of that stuff. So I don't know. We'll see.

1030
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 2: Oh man, you take a job to oversee conference and

1031
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 2: then the conference goes away.

1032
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know, Yeah exactly, that's exactly what

1033
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 3: What the hell just happened? What what did I do?

1034
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 3: So it is what it is, and whatever happens happens,

1035
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 3: there's a reason I got.

1036
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: I got two more for you. One. I give you your.

1037
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: Own rule book John John Higgins rule Book. You know

1038
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,959
Speaker 2: it's a long time, you know the chapter and verse?

1039
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 2: What would you what would you change? What would you

1040
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 2: bring back? What would you do if you got a

1041
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: chance to change the rule book?

1042
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 3: Well, first of I'll make it way simpler. You know,

1043
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 3: have you ever read the rule book?

1044
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: Yes?

1045
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 3: So I so. I had j Billis last year at

1046
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 3: a fundraiser in Oman. I was the EMC with with him,

1047
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 3: and and he's obviously a very intelligent guy and attorney

1048
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 3: by trade, and and I said, Jay, have you ever

1049
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 3: read the rule book?

1050
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1051
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 3: I said, how could you? Could you understand this rule book?

1052
00:54:58,440 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: No?

1053
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 3: I cannot understand it. You got to make it way

1054
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 3: simpler because there's exceptions to every rule, and there's exceptions

1055
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 3: to the exceptions to that rule. So it needs to

1056
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: be much simpler, make more straightforward. There's a lot of

1057
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 3: rules that you could there's so many petty rules that

1058
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 3: you none of us know. But and I know one thing.

1059
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 3: Coaches don't know him for sure. You could tell a

1060
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 3: coach that's the rule coach, and he goes, oh, okay,

1061
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 3: that's the rule. Okay, and you have they had no idea,

1062
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 3: So make it, make it simpler would be the first

1063
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 3: thing I would do.

1064
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: But no specific rules that you know that.

1065
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, like like the end of like

1066
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 3: the other day, the Georgetown game, as you saw that

1067
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 3: the guy got stepped out of bounds, So you can

1068
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 3: do you can do it every other or all these sports, football, whatever,

1069
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 3: they go back on scoring play, especially at the end

1070
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 3: of games. They go back to say, oh, no, the

1071
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 3: ball was out on the twelve yard line with fifteen

1072
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 3: seconds to go on the clock. That's that score doesn't count.

1073
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: Why can't we do that? In basketball? That play would

1074
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,439
Speaker 3: never counted. They'd have put the ball back and play

1075
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 3: with one second to go. Other team's bowl game one

1076
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: did other team would have won the game. We can't

1077
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 3: do that in basketball.

1078
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: We can.

1079
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 3: We can go look at it, you know, if the

1080
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 3: ball goes out a bounds with between two people and

1081
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 3: it goes out of bounds to kick to see who

1082
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 3: hit it off of. But on that part and you

1083
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 3: don't have a whistle, the biggest key. You don't have

1084
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 3: a whistle, so you can't look.

1085
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me ask you this though.

1086
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: Okay, what about if there was a foul that pushed

1087
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 2: him out of bounds, that wasn't called and he stepped

1088
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 2: out of bounds like there, there's the real there go

1089
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: Look if you don't have a whistle, I understand. But

1090
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is I'm saying is if there's a

1091
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 2: little of Pandora's box, right, can you go back and

1092
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 2: call a foul that wasn't there to make up for

1093
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 2: the fact that.

1094
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:15,399
Speaker 3: Only if it's flagrant, Like I can't go call common foul.

1095
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: I mean again, I know you can't. I'm saying, should

1096
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: you be?

1097
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 3: I'm giving you.

1098
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's different.

1099
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 2: So you think if you go back and you see

1100
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: a foul that you didn't previously see, you should be

1101
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: able to call that foul. Again, I'm not saying it's

1102
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: a rule now, I'm saying, if it was the John Higgins,

1103
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 2: this is how I would do.

1104
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 3: It rule book.

1105
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: Is that what your rule book was?

1106
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 3: Common sense? I think you make it simpler. I think

1107
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 3: I think you should. If you all beneficials are common sense, guys,

1108
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 3: referee common sense again. If you don't, I mean, coaches

1109
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 3: are common sense most of the time. They don't want

1110
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 3: the nitpick things. And that's why I would referee. That's

1111
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 3: what I want guys to referee.

1112
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: Last thing, I ain't even more than gracious in your time.

1113
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 2: Because you were such a high ranking official, because of

1114
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 2: the air, and because you do have that kind of

1115
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 2: inner prick where I'll make the big call on the road,

1116
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 2: and you had your own style of block charge. You're

1117
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 2: you're forever going to be a guy like I he

1118
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 2: that guy. What would you say to somebody who meets

1119
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: you on the street and a little bit like our

1120
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 2: conversation down Arizona Belmont, Right, this is what Belmont. Arizona's

1121
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: kicking the crap out of Belmont and a kid from Arizona. God,

1122
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: I can't remember the kid's name. I think he's from La.

1123
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 2: He hit a three and he turned around to the

1124
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 2: bench and said big or something like that, and you

1125
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: and you teat him, you acted, and I said, and

1126
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 2: this is what I said. I was like, ah, that's

1127
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: a call from a game, right, And you came up

1128
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: to me, and you.

1129
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 3: Came up to me.

1130
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 1: Like, hey, just so you know, my dad was a coach,

1131
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: played my whole life, played.

1132
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: Division two basketball or whatever, like this is what he said.

1133
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: It's the right call.

1134
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 2: But to somebody who doesn't know you, who doesn't get

1135
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 2: a chance to have the personal interaction. What would you

1136
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: tell him about who you really are as a person

1137
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: as opposed to who you were.

1138
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: Ah, yeah, oh.

1139
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 3: Boy, that's I'm probably way kinder and nicer in as

1140
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 3: a person outside of the basketball court that I am

1141
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 3: on the basketball court.

1142
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 2: Uh.

1143
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 3: You know, we do a lot of terrible things here

1144
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 3: in our town, and and I do a lot of things.

1145
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 3: For a guy that got me in officiating, he's lived

1146
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 3: in an apartment complex of mine for years and years

1147
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 3: and years. I just helped him move back to his

1148
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 3: apartment after three months in the hospital. And my wife

1149
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 3: is a he's very charitable. Our whole family has done that.

1150
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: We do.

1151
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 3: We give to a bunch of Catholic organizations and and uh,

1152
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 3: we volunteer a bunch. So I don't know that's the

1153
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 3: kind of person where we do a Madonna fund fundraiser thing,

1154
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 3: if that's what you're trying to ask.

1155
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 2: No, I think I think it's more like, here, here's

1156
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 2: how I would I would I would sell you.

1157
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: It's like just like mccam different.

1158
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: Can be a complete, complete, complete lunatic during the game, right,

1159
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 2: and then when you meet Frean McCaffrey, like that's one

1160
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 2: of the kindest human beings I've ever met.

1161
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: Right when when we're in that arena, we take on our.

1162
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: Roles, right and and part of your And I'll also say,

1163
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 2: you're you're hardened by the years of being told.

1164
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: You are you are right that you.

1165
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. I uh it did over the years.

1166
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 3: At first. You know, if you took it literally, you'd

1167
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 3: be you'd be a mental case. You'd be totally a

1168
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 3: mental case. Uh, if you took it how bad you were,

1169
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 3: and how what a piece of ship you are, and

1170
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 3: and you're you're you're you're awful. You're the worst referee

1171
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 3: in the history of the basketball. And you took that

1172
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 3: if you listen to that ship every day, you'd be

1173
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 3: you'd be in a mental ward. But I'm you know,

1174
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 3: they know nowadays, I'm just like everybody else. I like

1175
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 3: to go drink it, have a have a drink or

1176
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 3: two every other night, and then go socializing and be

1177
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 3: a be just to be a normal person. I like

1178
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 3: I love just like I love going to my leg

1179
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 3: I was just sitting there and doing nothing. Are going

1180
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 3: mow the lawn. I love mowing the lawn. I love

1181
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 3: keep my yard looking pretty. I love that it's so mindless,

1182
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 3: it's wonderful.

1183
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you free drinks. Okay, what is your drink?

1184
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 3: Tangary tonic lemon lime tall glass.

1185
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 2: Okay, because I guarantee how many basketball people listening to

1186
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 2: this pod and they're going to roll up on you

1187
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 2: and be like, you know what, I.

1188
01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 3: Got this one a man?

1189
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 2: You know that that that that's that's how the sport works.

1190
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 2: Last thing, who's the goat? Who referee to referee?

1191
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 1: You're one of the most decorated referees in the history

1192
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: of the sport. Who is the guy who you believe is.

1193
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 3: The referee ever? Probably Jimmy Burrow. Yeah, he had the

1194
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 3: courage and I know you probably didn't like him because

1195
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 3: you had at Notre Dame, but he was he was

1196
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 3: He had the toughness, he had great courage, He had

1197
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 3: great ability to take a game over and needed to.

1198
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: Uh.

1199
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 3: He wasn't probably the guy that would communicate the best

1200
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 3: with everybody. But other than that, he was he was

1201
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 3: a great play caller and he had he had that

1202
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 3: it factor that that would that that not a lot

1203
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 3: of people have him and Timmy Higgins, Ted Hillary there's

1204
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 3: you know, there's a boatload of guys.

1205
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: This is my favorite Tim Megan story. Okay, so remember

1206
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 2: he did my games a bunch of Notre Dame and

1207
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 2: I got to know all you guys on a couple

1208
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 2: of these. The tournaments are the best because that's when

1209
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 2: you run into the reps and Puerto Rico and Hawaii

1210
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 2: with But we did a game at Louisville and I

1211
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 2: think it was actually first of Jay. We did Louisville

1212
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 2: Cincinnati January one game and it was an early game,

1213
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 2: and uh, he beats me to the airport and he's

1214
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 2: sitting at the airport bar and I roll in and

1215
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,040
Speaker 2: we're watching a game and it goes double overtime. And

1216
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 2: he turns to me and he says, mister Gottlieb, do

1217
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: you know what we call double overtime and officiating?

1218
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: And I said, no, no, mister Higgins, what do you

1219
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: call it?

1220
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 3: He said, that's true. I said that. So that so

1221
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 3: one of my guys refereated double overtime game and I

1222
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 3: said on the text, I'm like, I said, you guys

1223
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 3: are fired at two overtime, bad officiation the game.

1224
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: Let's ship up, Let's wrap this ship up. Uh, perfect timing.

1225
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 2: Hey, listen, I truly appreciate you doing me kind of

1226
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 2: letting people behind the curtain and and the relationship that

1227
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,479
Speaker 2: we've been able to kind of build through the years.

1228
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: So on the road, I owe you, and and in

1229
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 1: the meantime, thanks, thanks so much, take care, we'll see.

1230
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 3: It on the road.

1231
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: Here. That's it for my John Higgins interview. I hope

1232
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: you enjoyed it.

1233
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 6: If you miss part one downloaded, make sure you write

1234
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 6: a review, make sure you subscribe, make sure you rate

1235
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 6: the pod as well. And if you liked it, tweet

1236
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 6: it out, send it to a friend. Tell me dig

1237
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 6: all Ball. Tell why you dig all Ball. I'm Doug

1238
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 6: Golly this it's All Ball

1239
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 3: App