1 00:00:04,078 --> 00:00:16,638 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 2 00:00:16,678 --> 00:00:19,558 Speaker 1: welcome back to another episode of the Book of Joe 3 00:00:19,638 --> 00:00:24,158 Speaker 1: podcast with me, Tom Berducci, and Joe Madden and Joe 4 00:00:24,238 --> 00:00:27,838 Speaker 1: as a former catcher as a former manager of Wilson Contreras. 5 00:00:27,838 --> 00:00:30,478 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're following closely what's happened in the last 6 00:00:30,518 --> 00:00:33,598 Speaker 1: week with the Saint Louis Cardinals and their eighty five 7 00:00:33,638 --> 00:00:38,678 Speaker 1: million dollar free agent Wilson Contreras, who the Cardinals decided 8 00:00:38,718 --> 00:00:42,038 Speaker 1: after a very slow start to the season that. 9 00:00:41,918 --> 00:00:43,278 Speaker 2: He's no longer their catcher. 10 00:00:43,718 --> 00:00:46,758 Speaker 1: It took only twenty three starts behind the plate for 11 00:00:46,838 --> 00:00:50,478 Speaker 1: Contreras for the Cardinals to say, you know what, No, 12 00:00:50,518 --> 00:00:52,318 Speaker 1: we're going to take a mulligan on you being our 13 00:00:52,398 --> 00:00:53,398 Speaker 1: everyday catcher. 14 00:00:54,838 --> 00:00:56,878 Speaker 2: Give me your first reaction when you heard. 15 00:00:56,678 --> 00:00:59,918 Speaker 1: About this, Joe, since you know both the Cardinals and 16 00:00:59,958 --> 00:01:00,518 Speaker 1: Wilson so. 17 00:01:00,598 --> 00:01:05,918 Speaker 3: Well, Yeah, surprised. As an under statement, I don't. I'd 18 00:01:05,998 --> 00:01:08,078 Speaker 3: like to know more. We're not going to know more 19 00:01:08,878 --> 00:01:12,158 Speaker 3: the real reasons and new are the motivating factors behind this. 20 00:01:12,318 --> 00:01:16,278 Speaker 3: I mean it's not This is not as easier obvious 21 00:01:16,358 --> 00:01:21,078 Speaker 3: as we're disappointed in him catching, so we have to 22 00:01:21,078 --> 00:01:23,678 Speaker 3: move on after twenty some games. After all, they got 23 00:01:23,678 --> 00:01:26,438 Speaker 3: to see him play in Chicago for how many years 24 00:01:26,478 --> 00:01:29,798 Speaker 3: they saw, you know, the playoffs in the World Series. 25 00:01:29,838 --> 00:01:32,518 Speaker 3: They've seen him. Obviously they have. They scotted him. We're 26 00:01:32,558 --> 00:01:34,638 Speaker 3: just just talking to Scotting with boards a couple of 27 00:01:34,638 --> 00:01:37,598 Speaker 3: minutes ago. They've scotted him. So going into this, if 28 00:01:37,598 --> 00:01:39,758 Speaker 3: there's any zits, you got to know that in advance. 29 00:01:39,838 --> 00:01:42,798 Speaker 3: So there's something internal going on there. And the fact 30 00:01:42,798 --> 00:01:45,238 Speaker 3: that they're off to a bad start absolutely, It's it's 31 00:01:45,278 --> 00:01:48,118 Speaker 3: incredible how we always have to look for reasons. I 32 00:01:48,158 --> 00:01:50,398 Speaker 3: looked at their pitching numbers. I mean, they're right in 33 00:01:50,398 --> 00:01:53,758 Speaker 3: the middle of the packer number nine overall. And again 34 00:01:53,798 --> 00:01:57,358 Speaker 3: it's early. That's the thing. It's so darn early. And 35 00:01:57,478 --> 00:02:00,358 Speaker 3: for me, when you invest that much money in a 36 00:02:00,398 --> 00:02:04,438 Speaker 3: player like Wilson and he's there for absolute particular reason, 37 00:02:04,638 --> 00:02:07,078 Speaker 3: they don't there's a way that you could be cutting 38 00:02:07,118 --> 00:02:10,238 Speaker 3: into some confidence here and some trust over a long 39 00:02:10,278 --> 00:02:12,158 Speaker 3: period of time. I mean, the only thing I could 40 00:02:12,158 --> 00:02:15,838 Speaker 3: think of is when the Red Sox, I'm Carl Crawford 41 00:02:16,718 --> 00:02:18,478 Speaker 3: and after a couple of days or weeks whatever, they 42 00:02:18,758 --> 00:02:20,998 Speaker 3: dropped them from two to seven or eight and that 43 00:02:21,438 --> 00:02:23,398 Speaker 3: you know, Carl said all the right things, but eventually 44 00:02:23,478 --> 00:02:26,238 Speaker 3: that really blows your mind up. So I don't know, 45 00:02:26,278 --> 00:02:29,198 Speaker 3: there's there's more to it. You can't blame it on him. 46 00:02:29,198 --> 00:02:32,158 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I'm looking at the numbers. I know they're 47 00:02:32,438 --> 00:02:34,798 Speaker 3: coming alcohol of fame catcher and I'm a big yachty 48 00:02:34,838 --> 00:02:38,078 Speaker 3: guy and we all are, but I there's there's something 49 00:02:38,398 --> 00:02:42,758 Speaker 3: undermining going on there. And I know it's a tradition 50 00:02:42,838 --> 00:02:46,078 Speaker 3: based organization and they do. From my perspective, I like 51 00:02:46,118 --> 00:02:51,198 Speaker 3: what they do. I think they're more real and traditional 52 00:02:51,798 --> 00:02:55,278 Speaker 3: and they put analytics, you know, in the background using it, 53 00:02:55,318 --> 00:02:58,198 Speaker 3: but I think they do go by their own methods. 54 00:02:58,198 --> 00:03:01,518 Speaker 3: That's been my impression. So I'm just curious because to me, 55 00:03:01,718 --> 00:03:03,278 Speaker 3: it really didn't make a whole lot of sense. 56 00:03:03,638 --> 00:03:05,678 Speaker 1: Yeah, you just hinted that the guests we're going to 57 00:03:05,678 --> 00:03:10,318 Speaker 1: bring on. Mike Borsello, long time catching instructor and game 58 00:03:10,438 --> 00:03:13,478 Speaker 1: strategists for you with the Cubs and long before that 59 00:03:13,558 --> 00:03:17,158 Speaker 1: with the New York Yankees championship teams. He obviously knows 60 00:03:17,198 --> 00:03:21,118 Speaker 1: Wilson well worked with him on a daily basis, including Wilson. 61 00:03:21,318 --> 00:03:23,758 Speaker 1: Treres was behind the plate in Game seven of a 62 00:03:23,758 --> 00:03:26,198 Speaker 1: World Series in twenty sixteen, and now he's not an 63 00:03:26,238 --> 00:03:26,998 Speaker 1: everyday catcher. 64 00:03:27,438 --> 00:03:29,598 Speaker 2: I have a lot of problems with this, Joe. I mean, 65 00:03:29,598 --> 00:03:31,718 Speaker 2: first of all, Wilson Contreras. 66 00:03:31,118 --> 00:03:33,958 Speaker 1: Only started seventy two games behind plate for the Cubs 67 00:03:34,038 --> 00:03:37,278 Speaker 1: last year. You know he DHD much of the time. 68 00:03:37,958 --> 00:03:40,678 Speaker 1: To me, he's not one hundred and ten hundred and 69 00:03:40,678 --> 00:03:43,598 Speaker 1: twenty game catcher. You want his bat in the lineup 70 00:03:43,638 --> 00:03:46,078 Speaker 1: as a DH. He can play the outfield in the pinch, 71 00:03:47,238 --> 00:03:49,558 Speaker 1: but he's not the kind of guy you're signing to be. 72 00:03:49,678 --> 00:03:52,438 Speaker 1: Yadia Molina, I'm sorry you go in there with eyes 73 00:03:52,518 --> 00:03:56,278 Speaker 1: wide open. The Cardinals are off to a terrible start. Listen, 74 00:03:56,358 --> 00:03:59,918 Speaker 1: this is a pitching staff that is built on soft contact. 75 00:03:59,958 --> 00:04:02,558 Speaker 1: It's not a swing and miss staph. We now have 76 00:04:02,718 --> 00:04:05,598 Speaker 1: rules where you cannot shift, and the Cardinals have gone 77 00:04:05,638 --> 00:04:07,758 Speaker 1: from one of the better defensive teams to one of 78 00:04:07,798 --> 00:04:12,078 Speaker 1: the worst defensive teams. Their expected batting average is lower 79 00:04:12,118 --> 00:04:14,918 Speaker 1: than what the actual batting average on balls and play is. 80 00:04:14,998 --> 00:04:17,278 Speaker 1: It tells me they're not in the right spot. They're 81 00:04:17,318 --> 00:04:21,438 Speaker 1: just not playing good defense. There's a lot of problems here, 82 00:04:21,598 --> 00:04:24,198 Speaker 1: Listen to. The pitching staff has been terrible on two 83 00:04:24,198 --> 00:04:27,118 Speaker 1: strike counts. Is that the catcher's fault is generally the 84 00:04:27,198 --> 00:04:29,518 Speaker 1: problem of execution rather than selection. 85 00:04:31,038 --> 00:04:32,238 Speaker 2: You know, go around the horn. 86 00:04:32,318 --> 00:04:35,118 Speaker 1: You have a logjam of outfielders where some of these 87 00:04:35,158 --> 00:04:37,958 Speaker 1: young players are not progressing the way that they should 88 00:04:38,038 --> 00:04:40,638 Speaker 1: because no one's guaranteed an everyday spot in the lineup. 89 00:04:41,078 --> 00:04:43,518 Speaker 1: Jordan Walker makes the team out of spring training and 90 00:04:43,598 --> 00:04:45,398 Speaker 1: after a blink and I he's back in the minor 91 00:04:45,478 --> 00:04:48,958 Speaker 1: leagues where he's now struggling. So all these things are 92 00:04:49,638 --> 00:04:52,318 Speaker 1: coming to a confluence here with the Cardinals, and I 93 00:04:52,318 --> 00:04:56,038 Speaker 1: don't know why they were so public about saying, you 94 00:04:56,078 --> 00:04:58,278 Speaker 1: know what the problem is, Wilson Contraras, and I know 95 00:04:58,358 --> 00:05:00,318 Speaker 1: John Mosela came out of his way to say, listen, 96 00:05:00,318 --> 00:05:03,678 Speaker 1: we're not blaming him, but that's the message you gave people. 97 00:05:04,038 --> 00:05:06,918 Speaker 1: You singled out the one move that you're making. You 98 00:05:07,078 --> 00:05:09,598 Speaker 1: essentially announced first they said he's gonna play the outfield. 99 00:05:09,638 --> 00:05:11,958 Speaker 1: A couple of days later is not, actually, we misspoke, 100 00:05:11,998 --> 00:05:13,678 Speaker 1: He's not gonna play the outfield. They have too many 101 00:05:13,718 --> 00:05:16,798 Speaker 1: outfielders as it is, So I don't like that the 102 00:05:16,838 --> 00:05:19,318 Speaker 1: fact that listen, if you're not happy with the job 103 00:05:19,358 --> 00:05:22,798 Speaker 1: he's doing behind the plate. Okay, fine, you don't have 104 00:05:22,878 --> 00:05:25,038 Speaker 1: to announce it to the world that he's no longer 105 00:05:25,158 --> 00:05:29,518 Speaker 1: catching after essentially, you know, twenty three games behind the plate. 106 00:05:29,558 --> 00:05:30,998 Speaker 1: I don't think it's fair to the player. I don't 107 00:05:31,278 --> 00:05:33,318 Speaker 1: think it's fair to the rest of the team. So, 108 00:05:33,478 --> 00:05:35,678 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, Joe, I'm sure there's a lot of 109 00:05:35,718 --> 00:05:38,518 Speaker 1: things going on here. Let's not forget it's not just 110 00:05:39,198 --> 00:05:42,878 Speaker 1: that you know, Yady Molina is gone, Mike Maddocks, a 111 00:05:42,878 --> 00:05:43,838 Speaker 1: pitching coach is gone. 112 00:05:43,878 --> 00:05:45,038 Speaker 2: They've got a new pitching coach. 113 00:05:46,398 --> 00:05:50,718 Speaker 1: And you think about they had a nexus of Mike Schilt, 114 00:05:50,878 --> 00:05:54,638 Speaker 1: Yady Molina, Mike Maddox, a lot of experience there. All 115 00:05:54,718 --> 00:05:57,798 Speaker 1: those now have turned over. It's not the same run 116 00:05:57,838 --> 00:06:01,038 Speaker 1: prevention team. I think they'll figure it out, but they're 117 00:06:01,038 --> 00:06:03,678 Speaker 1: in danger of burying themselves this early in the season. 118 00:06:04,318 --> 00:06:06,958 Speaker 3: Yeah, just back to something you said earlier about Wilson 119 00:06:07,078 --> 00:06:09,238 Speaker 3: and I guess he only caught seventy some games last 120 00:06:09,278 --> 00:06:11,798 Speaker 3: year when we were there, Borse and I. My thing 121 00:06:11,838 --> 00:06:13,678 Speaker 3: with him was to never have him catch more than 122 00:06:13,718 --> 00:06:16,238 Speaker 3: three games in a row. A couple of times. I 123 00:06:16,238 --> 00:06:18,798 Speaker 3: think in August I went four times in a row 124 00:06:18,918 --> 00:06:22,318 Speaker 3: just because he was so valuable his ability to both 125 00:06:23,118 --> 00:06:26,478 Speaker 3: stop a running game hit and again, I mean I 126 00:06:26,518 --> 00:06:29,118 Speaker 3: know this A lot of this is analytically driven for me, 127 00:06:29,238 --> 00:06:32,158 Speaker 3: because even back then, we got a lot of pressure, 128 00:06:32,558 --> 00:06:36,198 Speaker 3: you know, regarding him his receiving ability, and again based 129 00:06:36,238 --> 00:06:39,518 Speaker 3: on metrics and framing and all these different numbers that 130 00:06:39,558 --> 00:06:41,638 Speaker 3: are now available to us. There's a lot of people 131 00:06:41,678 --> 00:06:44,598 Speaker 3: that did not like him analytically even at that time. 132 00:06:45,278 --> 00:06:47,918 Speaker 3: Borsy could talk about this more specifically, but we worked 133 00:06:47,998 --> 00:06:50,638 Speaker 3: very hard to bring him up to speed. And the 134 00:06:50,678 --> 00:06:53,878 Speaker 3: thing about Wilson to me that I was really impressed 135 00:06:53,878 --> 00:06:57,758 Speaker 3: with his work ethic and his prep work. I can't 136 00:06:57,798 --> 00:06:59,558 Speaker 3: even say it got better. It was always very good. 137 00:06:59,598 --> 00:07:03,158 Speaker 3: He just got to understand a position better as we 138 00:07:03,198 --> 00:07:06,558 Speaker 3: went through this problem for several years with him. Yeah, 139 00:07:06,598 --> 00:07:09,358 Speaker 3: there's there's definitely some kind of a power struggle going 140 00:07:09,438 --> 00:07:12,598 Speaker 3: on there. Somebody is attempting to become the next Yati 141 00:07:13,118 --> 00:07:15,518 Speaker 3: somehow in order to take charge of this pitching and 142 00:07:15,558 --> 00:07:17,958 Speaker 3: pitching staff and and how we're going to do this. 143 00:07:18,838 --> 00:07:21,958 Speaker 3: But you'll get back in this right here, Borzy, Mike 144 00:07:21,998 --> 00:07:25,158 Speaker 3: BORZELI going to talk to to me does this better 145 00:07:25,198 --> 00:07:28,078 Speaker 3: than anybody in baseball I've I've referenced it in the 146 00:07:28,118 --> 00:07:31,318 Speaker 3: past when we won some big series with the Cubs 147 00:07:31,318 --> 00:07:33,958 Speaker 3: that the other team got borzelloed. He has a method 148 00:07:34,158 --> 00:07:40,158 Speaker 3: that he applies that's unique to himself. It's analytically driven 149 00:07:40,238 --> 00:07:43,518 Speaker 3: in his own cocktail. Nobody else does it like him 150 00:07:43,558 --> 00:07:45,918 Speaker 3: because the way he breaks it down, the way he 151 00:07:45,958 --> 00:07:48,398 Speaker 3: presents it to the catcher and the pitchers is unique. 152 00:07:48,518 --> 00:07:51,398 Speaker 3: And then furthermore, in game, he has the ability to 153 00:07:52,158 --> 00:07:55,558 Speaker 3: relay information and stuff to the catcher real time that 154 00:07:55,638 --> 00:07:57,598 Speaker 3: I think I've sawt I mean, i've he said standing 155 00:07:57,598 --> 00:07:59,678 Speaker 3: next time we'll be talking about it, and I saw 156 00:07:59,718 --> 00:08:03,998 Speaker 3: it happen. Last point, I think maybe regarding that the 157 00:08:04,438 --> 00:08:09,798 Speaker 3: pitch clock possibly has actually permitted or decreased the amount 158 00:08:09,838 --> 00:08:13,158 Speaker 3: of time that you could lend to making decisions or 159 00:08:13,238 --> 00:08:16,238 Speaker 3: relay information. And I do to what extent that may 160 00:08:16,278 --> 00:08:18,798 Speaker 3: be impactful with this too, and why you have to 161 00:08:18,838 --> 00:08:21,318 Speaker 3: give it more time As a catcher in this situation 162 00:08:21,478 --> 00:08:24,718 Speaker 3: is understanding the staff and how we're prepping and how 163 00:08:24,758 --> 00:08:26,878 Speaker 3: we're trying to do things. All these things are underconnected. 164 00:08:27,198 --> 00:08:30,478 Speaker 3: Last point, it is May night, brother, it is May night. 165 00:08:31,478 --> 00:08:34,558 Speaker 3: So to me, you got to be careful with the 166 00:08:34,558 --> 00:08:36,638 Speaker 3: signals you're putting out there right now because it could 167 00:08:36,678 --> 00:08:39,038 Speaker 3: be devastating during the course of the year. 168 00:08:39,798 --> 00:08:42,438 Speaker 1: Yeah, good point, and listen, now, the bulk of the 169 00:08:42,478 --> 00:08:45,598 Speaker 1: catching is going to Andrew Kisner, really good receiver. 170 00:08:45,758 --> 00:08:46,318 Speaker 2: I get it. 171 00:08:46,558 --> 00:08:49,918 Speaker 1: He's not going to hit. He is not going to hit. 172 00:08:50,238 --> 00:08:51,798 Speaker 1: That's fine if you want to live with that. You 173 00:08:51,838 --> 00:08:55,078 Speaker 1: think you have offense elsewhere. But remember, if you're dh 174 00:08:55,198 --> 00:08:58,198 Speaker 1: In Contreras, now you're taking it bats away from Nolan Gorman, 175 00:08:58,518 --> 00:09:00,878 Speaker 1: and that's another young hitter is off to a good start. 176 00:09:01,398 --> 00:09:05,078 Speaker 1: Then you're disrupting his development. So there's a lot of 177 00:09:05,158 --> 00:09:08,598 Speaker 1: problems here. I think with roster construction and use of players. 178 00:09:09,518 --> 00:09:11,358 Speaker 1: What I would have done, I would have not made 179 00:09:11,358 --> 00:09:14,878 Speaker 1: this thing public. There's no reason to announce Wilson Contreras 180 00:09:14,918 --> 00:09:17,918 Speaker 1: can't catch. It's essentially what they did. They've just totally 181 00:09:17,958 --> 00:09:20,638 Speaker 1: ruined his trade value. He's got no trade clause anyway. 182 00:09:21,718 --> 00:09:23,638 Speaker 1: I would have had him catch the same two starters. 183 00:09:23,798 --> 00:09:26,358 Speaker 1: You know, he's if two or three start behind the plate, 184 00:09:26,398 --> 00:09:29,598 Speaker 1: a weak guy. Instead of working with the entire staff, 185 00:09:29,678 --> 00:09:32,878 Speaker 1: have him worked with two starters, match him up, you know, 186 00:09:32,918 --> 00:09:34,798 Speaker 1: make his job a little bit easier as he gets 187 00:09:34,958 --> 00:09:39,558 Speaker 1: indoctrinated into whatever complicated system the Cardinals have. But yeah, 188 00:09:39,678 --> 00:09:42,238 Speaker 1: I didn't like that they played this out so publicly. 189 00:09:42,318 --> 00:09:43,198 Speaker 1: We'll see what happens. 190 00:09:43,238 --> 00:09:45,998 Speaker 2: But listen, you tease, and you did a very good 191 00:09:46,078 --> 00:09:46,478 Speaker 2: job of this. 192 00:09:46,558 --> 00:09:49,518 Speaker 1: Joe teasing our guests coming up, Mike borzel I've actually 193 00:09:50,078 --> 00:09:52,118 Speaker 1: you have as well, of course, but I've seen him 194 00:09:52,118 --> 00:09:55,318 Speaker 1: do his work between innings, sitting down with Wilson Contreras. 195 00:09:55,358 --> 00:09:58,158 Speaker 1: Here's the next three hitters coming up throughout a game. 196 00:09:58,198 --> 00:10:01,398 Speaker 1: What adjustments we need to make, what's working, what's not working. 197 00:10:01,758 --> 00:10:04,558 Speaker 1: Here's what we're gonna work on next inning. It's uh, 198 00:10:05,238 --> 00:10:06,878 Speaker 1: you know, the Cubs were ahead of the curve with 199 00:10:06,958 --> 00:10:09,878 Speaker 1: Borsello when it comes to game planning. In game planning 200 00:10:10,198 --> 00:10:13,158 Speaker 1: as you have it. So let's talk to Mike Borsello. 201 00:10:13,358 --> 00:10:14,558 Speaker 1: We'll bring them on right after this. 202 00:10:26,078 --> 00:10:28,798 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Book of Joke podcast and say 203 00:10:28,838 --> 00:10:32,518 Speaker 2: hello to Mike Borzello. How you doing, Mike good? 204 00:10:32,638 --> 00:10:33,718 Speaker 4: How are you? Tom? 205 00:10:33,918 --> 00:10:34,798 Speaker 2: I am well. 206 00:10:35,118 --> 00:10:37,518 Speaker 1: Listen, let me start with something Joe brought up, and 207 00:10:37,558 --> 00:10:41,318 Speaker 1: that's these these metrics and saber metric numbers that a 208 00:10:41,358 --> 00:10:44,038 Speaker 1: lot of teams put a lot of faith in when 209 00:10:44,038 --> 00:10:47,398 Speaker 1: it comes to catchers, framing, blocking, throwing, what have you? 210 00:10:48,718 --> 00:10:51,278 Speaker 2: How reliable have you found. 211 00:10:51,238 --> 00:10:55,278 Speaker 1: Those numbers to be in grading out a catcher's abilities. 212 00:10:56,398 --> 00:11:02,398 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it's obviously debatable when you talk to 213 00:11:02,438 --> 00:11:07,678 Speaker 4: the analytics department, it's there. It's heavy receiving, right, It's 214 00:11:07,718 --> 00:11:13,638 Speaker 4: it's receiving one. The rest of it falls probably evenly 215 00:11:13,678 --> 00:11:17,878 Speaker 4: at number two. So that's been an adjustment in the 216 00:11:17,918 --> 00:11:21,998 Speaker 4: game where, you know, not everyone agrees with that. I 217 00:11:22,038 --> 00:11:25,798 Speaker 4: mean a lot of people agree that game calling is 218 00:11:25,838 --> 00:11:30,078 Speaker 4: the most important thing, that managing a staff is more important. 219 00:11:30,758 --> 00:11:33,238 Speaker 4: That you can suffer on the receiving side as long 220 00:11:33,278 --> 00:11:38,278 Speaker 4: as as that's going well. Giving up the throwing in 221 00:11:38,318 --> 00:11:42,478 Speaker 4: the blocking and selling out for receiving is another debate. 222 00:11:42,798 --> 00:11:45,958 Speaker 4: You know, in modern baseball we see more balls go 223 00:11:45,998 --> 00:11:50,478 Speaker 4: to the backstop on a nightly basis with catchers on 224 00:11:50,478 --> 00:11:54,118 Speaker 4: one knee that are you know, basically selling out to 225 00:11:54,118 --> 00:11:59,798 Speaker 4: to the bottom of the zone receiving. So I want 226 00:11:59,838 --> 00:12:03,038 Speaker 4: every I want to catcher that's well rounded. I believe 227 00:12:03,078 --> 00:12:06,718 Speaker 4: in the receiver being important, but I also believe in 228 00:12:07,238 --> 00:12:12,878 Speaker 4: blocking and throwing and first and foremost calling the game 229 00:12:12,958 --> 00:12:15,758 Speaker 4: and handling your pitching staff. That comes first. 230 00:12:16,198 --> 00:12:17,318 Speaker 2: So obviously borzy. 231 00:12:17,478 --> 00:12:19,838 Speaker 1: You know Wilson Ntra as well, You've worked with him 232 00:12:19,838 --> 00:12:22,958 Speaker 1: for years on a daily basis. First of all, your 233 00:12:22,998 --> 00:12:26,918 Speaker 1: reaction when you read and heard about the Cardinals essentially 234 00:12:26,998 --> 00:12:30,158 Speaker 1: turning him into a DH and no longer their regular catcher. 235 00:12:31,158 --> 00:12:36,718 Speaker 4: Yeah, obviously it's surprising when you commit to a guy 236 00:12:36,798 --> 00:12:39,678 Speaker 4: for that type of money and for that length of time. 237 00:12:41,718 --> 00:12:46,358 Speaker 4: I think everyone was shocked. But I don't know the 238 00:12:46,558 --> 00:12:48,758 Speaker 4: inside story on that. I don't know what's going on. 239 00:12:49,758 --> 00:12:55,518 Speaker 4: I can't speak to their decision, but of course I 240 00:12:55,598 --> 00:13:00,318 Speaker 4: was surprised. I mean, having Wilson for for what five 241 00:13:00,438 --> 00:13:06,878 Speaker 4: six years in Chicago, I never had any issues with 242 00:13:07,598 --> 00:13:14,318 Speaker 4: him as far as you know, prepping and calling a game, 243 00:13:14,398 --> 00:13:16,998 Speaker 4: but we did it in a system, a different system, 244 00:13:17,078 --> 00:13:20,958 Speaker 4: So I again, I can't speak to what they're going through. 245 00:13:20,998 --> 00:13:23,678 Speaker 4: They have obviously a different way of doing things than 246 00:13:23,718 --> 00:13:29,598 Speaker 4: we did. But surprised, Yeah, shocked so early in the season, 247 00:13:30,038 --> 00:13:34,238 Speaker 4: you know, not even what is it? Thirty games in 248 00:13:34,318 --> 00:13:38,158 Speaker 4: and you're making a pretty big decision. 249 00:13:39,638 --> 00:13:41,838 Speaker 3: Part of that with where's he brought up? Early on, 250 00:13:41,878 --> 00:13:46,758 Speaker 3: I was trying to list what are the tools now 251 00:13:47,358 --> 00:13:50,718 Speaker 3: that groups are looking for regarding a catching position. I 252 00:13:50,718 --> 00:13:52,638 Speaker 3: mean back in the day, it was pretty much catching. 253 00:13:53,078 --> 00:13:56,318 Speaker 3: Catch was described as catching and defense and throwing. Then 254 00:13:56,318 --> 00:13:58,798 Speaker 3: you wanted to hit for some power and possibly hitting. 255 00:13:58,798 --> 00:14:00,518 Speaker 3: The last thing you looked for was speed. Among the 256 00:14:00,558 --> 00:14:04,518 Speaker 3: five tools and no. Number one right now, I agree framing. 257 00:14:04,558 --> 00:14:07,438 Speaker 3: I mean, it's not even receiving or catching, it's framing. 258 00:14:08,158 --> 00:14:10,278 Speaker 3: And like Michael talked about there at the bottom of 259 00:14:10,318 --> 00:14:13,398 Speaker 3: the zone, up and doing the glove movement all the 260 00:14:13,478 --> 00:14:16,438 Speaker 3: time and from one knee and listen. I can't dispute 261 00:14:16,518 --> 00:14:18,238 Speaker 3: because I was watching the other day. I was watching. 262 00:14:18,278 --> 00:14:21,118 Speaker 3: I can't remember who the catcher was, Minnesota's catcher, I think, 263 00:14:21,558 --> 00:14:23,878 Speaker 3: and he was getting a lot of calls, a lot 264 00:14:23,918 --> 00:14:26,718 Speaker 3: of calls, and apparently he's got a great reputation the 265 00:14:26,718 --> 00:14:28,678 Speaker 3: way he was pulling the ball back into the zone, 266 00:14:29,118 --> 00:14:31,798 Speaker 3: which of course is going to be somewhat mitigated I think, 267 00:14:31,918 --> 00:14:36,358 Speaker 3: or if there's an actual electronics strike zone. But point 268 00:14:36,518 --> 00:14:39,718 Speaker 3: is number one right now is framing. So when a kid, 269 00:14:39,798 --> 00:14:41,798 Speaker 3: when a Scott goes out, and now when you're listing 270 00:14:41,878 --> 00:14:44,198 Speaker 3: the five tools for a catcher, it's completely different, is 271 00:14:44,198 --> 00:14:46,838 Speaker 3: it framing than for me? Game planning and then hit 272 00:14:46,918 --> 00:14:50,318 Speaker 3: hit with power, blocking like Mike, He's talked about there 273 00:14:50,398 --> 00:14:53,558 Speaker 3: is really not even that important anymore to these guys. 274 00:14:53,598 --> 00:14:58,198 Speaker 3: And then throwing. You would think this year, with the 275 00:14:58,238 --> 00:15:00,078 Speaker 3: different rules and the fact that there should be an 276 00:15:00,118 --> 00:15:03,718 Speaker 3: ascension in base dealing and base running, it's like a 277 00:15:03,758 --> 00:15:06,318 Speaker 3: guy how that controls to me, could totally stop that 278 00:15:06,398 --> 00:15:09,398 Speaker 3: particular part of the game and benefit your defense and 279 00:15:09,758 --> 00:15:12,118 Speaker 3: the thoughts put in the other team's heads. But I 280 00:15:12,118 --> 00:15:14,198 Speaker 3: think throwing has really gone to the bottom of the 281 00:15:14,238 --> 00:15:17,198 Speaker 3: last one I have was to lead. You know, when 282 00:15:17,238 --> 00:15:20,558 Speaker 3: we used to look for catchers as a scout, you 283 00:15:20,598 --> 00:15:23,598 Speaker 3: wanted leadership, callity, he wanted to assertive, this aggressiveness. You 284 00:15:23,638 --> 00:15:26,798 Speaker 3: wanted to see those those kind of attributes from the player. 285 00:15:26,798 --> 00:15:28,918 Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that the catchers today aren't unable 286 00:15:28,958 --> 00:15:32,358 Speaker 3: to do that, but the way the game is brought 287 00:15:32,398 --> 00:15:35,678 Speaker 3: to the clubhouse now from you know, analytics and whatever, 288 00:15:36,518 --> 00:15:38,718 Speaker 3: leading is not necessarily as important as it had been. 289 00:15:39,318 --> 00:15:41,678 Speaker 3: And I believe it is, but I'm just saying I 290 00:15:41,678 --> 00:15:44,438 Speaker 3: don't think it's listed as being as important or thought 291 00:15:44,438 --> 00:15:47,718 Speaker 3: of as being as important. So the five tools as 292 00:15:47,718 --> 00:15:50,958 Speaker 3: we knew them, every position, every the baseball players have 293 00:15:51,038 --> 00:15:53,718 Speaker 3: five tools, and you would list them according to what 294 00:15:53,878 --> 00:15:57,358 Speaker 3: was more pertinent regarding the position they played. So right now, 295 00:15:58,238 --> 00:16:00,678 Speaker 3: you could say defense for a catcher, but it's different. 296 00:16:00,798 --> 00:16:03,238 Speaker 3: It's framing. And then Mike, Mike said game planning, and 297 00:16:03,278 --> 00:16:06,038 Speaker 3: then everything works off of that because defense to me 298 00:16:06,078 --> 00:16:08,758 Speaker 3: would have been blocking. Defense to me would have been throwing. 299 00:16:08,758 --> 00:16:12,798 Speaker 3: But I think there's been less of an emphasis there 300 00:16:13,358 --> 00:16:16,398 Speaker 3: and more on just trying to catch a strike and 301 00:16:16,438 --> 00:16:19,358 Speaker 3: making sure that you have the right pitch called on 302 00:16:19,438 --> 00:16:20,038 Speaker 3: your wristband. 303 00:16:20,758 --> 00:16:24,238 Speaker 1: Borsey again, getting back to Wilson, give me your own 304 00:16:24,838 --> 00:16:27,198 Speaker 1: and you know him as well, if not better than anybody, 305 00:16:27,478 --> 00:16:30,798 Speaker 1: your own scouting report on what he does well, what 306 00:16:30,878 --> 00:16:34,878 Speaker 1: he still needs to work on. More importantly, the relationship 307 00:16:34,918 --> 00:16:35,998 Speaker 1: working with pitchers. 308 00:16:36,438 --> 00:16:41,038 Speaker 4: Well, I mean my relationship with Wilson goes back to 309 00:16:41,638 --> 00:16:47,398 Speaker 4: the off season of twenty fifteen. We had just gotten 310 00:16:48,478 --> 00:16:53,838 Speaker 4: beat by the Mats four straight in the NLCS, and 311 00:16:53,918 --> 00:16:57,798 Speaker 4: THEO sent me to Arizona to go meet this kid 312 00:16:57,838 --> 00:17:02,118 Speaker 4: who is down there plane in the Fall League, and 313 00:17:02,158 --> 00:17:04,358 Speaker 4: he wanted a report on him. He wanted me to 314 00:17:04,358 --> 00:17:09,798 Speaker 4: see Wilson Contreras. So I flew in, never went home, 315 00:17:09,878 --> 00:17:14,278 Speaker 4: flew from from Chicago to to Arizona, and I met 316 00:17:14,358 --> 00:17:17,358 Speaker 4: with Wilson and we went through some stuff and we spoke, 317 00:17:17,478 --> 00:17:20,558 Speaker 4: and I found a passion for the game in him 318 00:17:20,558 --> 00:17:24,358 Speaker 4: that was undeniable. I mean, he loves baseball, he loves 319 00:17:24,438 --> 00:17:29,318 Speaker 4: to play, he loves to compete, and THEO asked me 320 00:17:29,478 --> 00:17:32,398 Speaker 4: for for a report on him after I left. Unfortunately, 321 00:17:32,478 --> 00:17:34,438 Speaker 4: I really didn't get to see him play. The first 322 00:17:34,478 --> 00:17:36,318 Speaker 4: game I went to see him play in the Fall League, 323 00:17:36,358 --> 00:17:40,158 Speaker 4: he pulled a hamstring. So we spent the week going 324 00:17:40,238 --> 00:17:43,878 Speaker 4: over how we do things at the big league level. 325 00:17:44,078 --> 00:17:47,558 Speaker 4: We were we went over reports, we went over video, 326 00:17:47,718 --> 00:17:51,478 Speaker 4: we we broke down hitters. I wanted to introduce him to, 327 00:17:52,278 --> 00:17:55,878 Speaker 4: you know, the major league style of prep work, and 328 00:17:56,078 --> 00:17:58,798 Speaker 4: especially our prep work and our system with the Cubs, 329 00:17:59,278 --> 00:18:03,118 Speaker 4: and he was all in. So THEO asked me, what 330 00:18:03,158 --> 00:18:06,278 Speaker 4: do you got, and I said, let's do it, britt, 331 00:18:06,358 --> 00:18:10,158 Speaker 4: Let's what are we waiting on. This guy's our guy, like, 332 00:18:10,278 --> 00:18:13,038 Speaker 4: let's go. He's all in. It'll work. We'll make it work. 333 00:18:13,558 --> 00:18:17,518 Speaker 4: This guy's going to be a player. And the next 334 00:18:17,598 --> 00:18:22,318 Speaker 4: year he shows up, I believe. In June we called 335 00:18:22,398 --> 00:18:24,438 Speaker 4: him up in the middle of a you know, the 336 00:18:24,558 --> 00:18:28,678 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen season, we called up a catcher. I mean, 337 00:18:28,678 --> 00:18:31,878 Speaker 4: when does that ever happen a team that's, you know, 338 00:18:31,998 --> 00:18:35,038 Speaker 4: pick to win the World Series. And we brought up 339 00:18:35,078 --> 00:18:37,558 Speaker 4: Wilson Contreras in the middle of the season, you know, 340 00:18:37,678 --> 00:18:41,318 Speaker 4: to to have a three headed monster with David Ross 341 00:18:41,358 --> 00:18:46,078 Speaker 4: Miguel Montero and Wilson Contreras, and Wilson got the bulk 342 00:18:46,118 --> 00:18:49,958 Speaker 4: of the playing time. Obviously Rossy caught John Lester and 343 00:18:50,438 --> 00:18:56,598 Speaker 4: Maggie was catching Arietta. But ultimately Wilson showed up and 344 00:18:56,758 --> 00:18:59,998 Speaker 4: was was getting the bulk of the time, and we 345 00:19:00,118 --> 00:19:04,318 Speaker 4: made it work. He jumped right in. He we had 346 00:19:04,358 --> 00:19:08,838 Speaker 4: already spoken about how we do things and the rest 347 00:19:08,918 --> 00:19:12,398 Speaker 4: is history, right, I mean, we we won the World Series. 348 00:19:12,438 --> 00:19:16,158 Speaker 4: I think you spoke earlier about how Wilson Contrera started 349 00:19:16,158 --> 00:19:19,238 Speaker 4: Game seven in the World Series and game six If 350 00:19:19,278 --> 00:19:21,798 Speaker 4: you don't, you know, people forget he caught Arieta in 351 00:19:21,838 --> 00:19:27,118 Speaker 4: Game six. So I mean we had we had a 352 00:19:27,158 --> 00:19:32,798 Speaker 4: crash course in sixteen with him and uh and he 353 00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:36,358 Speaker 4: fit in seamlessly, to be honest, I mean it it 354 00:19:36,598 --> 00:19:39,358 Speaker 4: just worked and he and he was a big piece 355 00:19:39,398 --> 00:19:41,158 Speaker 4: to our championship run. 356 00:19:41,838 --> 00:19:44,158 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a great story about Wilson was not 357 00:19:44,358 --> 00:19:45,478 Speaker 1: signed as a catcher. 358 00:19:45,478 --> 00:19:46,558 Speaker 2: I think he was an infielder. 359 00:19:46,678 --> 00:19:49,558 Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you mentioned, he's got such a passion 360 00:19:49,638 --> 00:19:50,198 Speaker 1: for the game. 361 00:19:50,278 --> 00:19:51,358 Speaker 2: It was one day. 362 00:19:52,638 --> 00:19:55,638 Speaker 1: He saw some catchers equipment lying around, wanted to warm 363 00:19:55,718 --> 00:19:59,118 Speaker 1: up pitchers, just to keep himself busy, and lo and behold, 364 00:19:59,158 --> 00:20:01,438 Speaker 1: he turned himself into a catcher. It's that the position 365 00:20:01,518 --> 00:20:05,038 Speaker 1: suits him really well because he's an active guy. We 366 00:20:05,078 --> 00:20:07,358 Speaker 1: know he's got a very strong arm. I think he 367 00:20:07,558 --> 00:20:10,718 Speaker 1: likes being a leader behind the plate. I'm not sure 368 00:20:10,758 --> 00:20:13,918 Speaker 1: what Saint Louis missed here, because they were in it 369 00:20:14,078 --> 00:20:17,358 Speaker 1: for Sean Murphy in a trade from Oakland, decided to 370 00:20:17,398 --> 00:20:20,758 Speaker 1: pass Joe. You mentioned Christian Vasquez, the catcher with the 371 00:20:21,438 --> 00:20:25,718 Speaker 1: Minnesota Twins, is to me, really fit the Saint Louis 372 00:20:25,838 --> 00:20:31,118 Speaker 1: style of kind of emphasizing defense over bat first behind 373 00:20:31,158 --> 00:20:34,198 Speaker 1: the plate. They went in a really different direction here 374 00:20:34,398 --> 00:20:37,678 Speaker 1: and they don't like where they went. Obviously a very 375 00:20:37,758 --> 00:20:40,358 Speaker 1: quick way into a five year contract. And I don't 376 00:20:40,398 --> 00:20:42,558 Speaker 1: think I don't think that's on Wilson Contreres. I think 377 00:20:42,598 --> 00:20:46,838 Speaker 1: that's more on the Cardinals. So, Borzy, what do you think, 378 00:20:47,798 --> 00:20:49,598 Speaker 1: what do you think the future is for Wilson? 379 00:20:49,678 --> 00:20:51,278 Speaker 2: You think he adapts to this. Do you think he 380 00:20:51,318 --> 00:20:52,438 Speaker 2: has to find another place? 381 00:20:53,558 --> 00:20:56,478 Speaker 1: Is he comfortable, you know, not catching, because we saw 382 00:20:56,518 --> 00:21:00,078 Speaker 1: some quotes from him in Chicago where in his mind 383 00:21:00,118 --> 00:21:00,998 Speaker 1: he's still a catcher. 384 00:21:01,758 --> 00:21:05,038 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think he he is a catcher. That's 385 00:21:05,758 --> 00:21:08,358 Speaker 4: one hundred percent the truth. I mean, this guy has 386 00:21:08,438 --> 00:21:12,638 Speaker 4: to be behind the plate. We spoke about the position 387 00:21:13,958 --> 00:21:18,158 Speaker 4: changing over the last four or five years and the 388 00:21:18,198 --> 00:21:24,238 Speaker 4: focus being on framing and receiving. And you know, Wilson's 389 00:21:25,638 --> 00:21:30,398 Speaker 4: elite strengths are his throwing arm and his ability to block. 390 00:21:31,278 --> 00:21:35,678 Speaker 4: So if you don't value that, then you don't value 391 00:21:35,718 --> 00:21:39,198 Speaker 4: Wilson contraras. I mean, that is where he excels. He's 392 00:21:39,278 --> 00:21:42,638 Speaker 4: at the top of the list of all catchers when 393 00:21:42,678 --> 00:21:44,598 Speaker 4: it comes to throwing. And I'm not even talking about 394 00:21:44,678 --> 00:21:48,878 Speaker 4: throwing people out. I'm talking about deterring the running game 395 00:21:49,078 --> 00:21:53,278 Speaker 4: just because of his arm. People don't run the game. 396 00:21:53,478 --> 00:21:56,278 Speaker 4: The running game gets shut down before the series even 397 00:21:56,358 --> 00:22:00,438 Speaker 4: starts because they know he can throw. So it's not 398 00:22:00,478 --> 00:22:03,798 Speaker 4: always about the numbers. It's also the back picks where 399 00:22:03,798 --> 00:22:07,318 Speaker 4: he keeps a guy close to first, the leads get shorter. 400 00:22:07,718 --> 00:22:13,558 Speaker 4: There are so many things that his game does to 401 00:22:13,638 --> 00:22:18,358 Speaker 4: make the other team change their style, and those things 402 00:22:18,398 --> 00:22:23,318 Speaker 4: are not really quantifiable. At times, you know, you can't 403 00:22:23,358 --> 00:22:26,958 Speaker 4: really you can't really see the value he does bring 404 00:22:28,278 --> 00:22:31,198 Speaker 4: when it comes to stuff like that. The blocking, I mean, 405 00:22:31,238 --> 00:22:34,758 Speaker 4: Wilson contraras is as good a blocker as there is 406 00:22:34,798 --> 00:22:37,678 Speaker 4: in the game. I mean, but if you put him 407 00:22:37,718 --> 00:22:41,758 Speaker 4: on one knee and we don't value that, then there 408 00:22:41,758 --> 00:22:46,798 Speaker 4: goes another one of his strengths. So again, it's all 409 00:22:46,838 --> 00:22:50,398 Speaker 4: about what the organization looks at, how they look at 410 00:22:50,398 --> 00:22:55,038 Speaker 4: the position, what they value. If it's solely or ninety 411 00:22:55,078 --> 00:23:00,478 Speaker 4: percent about framing, and you're willing to sacrifice the other 412 00:23:00,558 --> 00:23:04,758 Speaker 4: parts of the game, then yes, Wilson's Wilson's value isn't 413 00:23:04,758 --> 00:23:09,958 Speaker 4: going to be quite as high. It's just not. But 414 00:23:10,078 --> 00:23:13,158 Speaker 4: as far as being a catcher, Wilson is a is 415 00:23:13,198 --> 00:23:16,838 Speaker 4: A is a catcher. Wilson has succeeded at the big 416 00:23:16,918 --> 00:23:22,038 Speaker 4: league level, has played in important games, has won a championship, 417 00:23:22,078 --> 00:23:25,518 Speaker 4: has played in the All Star Game, has let's not 418 00:23:25,638 --> 00:23:30,918 Speaker 4: forget this guy caught John Lester, John Lackey, Jake Arietta, 419 00:23:31,678 --> 00:23:34,838 Speaker 4: Kyle Hendritz, Cole Hamble's. I mean, I can go on 420 00:23:34,918 --> 00:23:40,038 Speaker 4: and on and we never had any issues. Again, I'm 421 00:23:40,038 --> 00:23:42,438 Speaker 4: not going to speak for the Cardinals. I don't know 422 00:23:42,478 --> 00:23:45,318 Speaker 4: what's going on there and I don't want to speak 423 00:23:45,358 --> 00:23:48,678 Speaker 4: for them at all. And obviously they have their reasons 424 00:23:48,798 --> 00:23:51,758 Speaker 4: and I respect that. But we didn't have any of 425 00:23:51,758 --> 00:23:56,398 Speaker 4: those issues in Chicago with those pitchers that I mentioned, 426 00:23:56,438 --> 00:24:00,198 Speaker 4: And those are veteran guys, tough guys that, as you know, 427 00:24:00,318 --> 00:24:03,998 Speaker 4: can be tough on it on a young catcher, and 428 00:24:04,478 --> 00:24:06,598 Speaker 4: it worked. It worked for us. 429 00:24:07,158 --> 00:24:09,278 Speaker 3: It is just about work. Point on that. I mean, 430 00:24:09,998 --> 00:24:14,878 Speaker 3: Wilson always has accepted constructive criticism. Well, so, I mean 431 00:24:15,318 --> 00:24:17,678 Speaker 3: how he reacted to all of this from what I saw, 432 00:24:17,718 --> 00:24:22,198 Speaker 3: what I read some voices, voiceovers that he gave doesn't 433 00:24:22,198 --> 00:24:26,838 Speaker 3: surprise me. I know he's probably he was impacted. He 434 00:24:26,918 --> 00:24:29,198 Speaker 3: was affected by all this. It hurt, there's no question. 435 00:24:29,958 --> 00:24:34,078 Speaker 3: But my moments with him has been that that he 436 00:24:34,198 --> 00:24:37,198 Speaker 3: does accept constructive criticism. Well, yes, he does want to 437 00:24:37,198 --> 00:24:40,118 Speaker 3: get better. He started out as not being a catcher, 438 00:24:40,198 --> 00:24:43,238 Speaker 3: so by no means as he thinks he knows everything. 439 00:24:43,758 --> 00:24:46,358 Speaker 3: And like boys just said, listen, when you catch Johnny 440 00:24:46,438 --> 00:24:51,798 Speaker 3: Lester and John Lackey, especially those two dudes, my goodness, 441 00:24:51,998 --> 00:24:55,358 Speaker 3: you have to have some thick skin. Brother, it is tough. 442 00:24:55,398 --> 00:25:01,598 Speaker 3: And on top of that, Johnny Lester really not only 443 00:25:01,638 --> 00:25:04,798 Speaker 3: survived but got better and proliferated with it comes because 444 00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:09,598 Speaker 3: I you know, after David left the with Wilson did 445 00:25:09,598 --> 00:25:11,678 Speaker 3: behind the plate, because you had to stop the running game. 446 00:25:11,678 --> 00:25:14,598 Speaker 3: You had to be a determined somehow. And we worked 447 00:25:14,598 --> 00:25:17,718 Speaker 3: this little thing with the triangle with Wilson, Rizzo and 448 00:25:18,158 --> 00:25:23,838 Speaker 3: Johnny when he pitched. It really helped settle Johnny's mind 449 00:25:23,878 --> 00:25:26,638 Speaker 3: every time he pitched. So there's all these different things 450 00:25:26,678 --> 00:25:30,358 Speaker 3: that his ability to do with tools do and again 451 00:25:30,438 --> 00:25:33,558 Speaker 3: right now, it just seems as though one is being 452 00:25:33,798 --> 00:25:37,558 Speaker 3: It really comes down to framing. I think game planning. 453 00:25:37,798 --> 00:25:39,958 Speaker 3: If that is the case, that could easily be mitigated 454 00:25:40,038 --> 00:25:42,398 Speaker 3: just by science coming from the bench. So to me, 455 00:25:42,438 --> 00:25:45,678 Speaker 3: it sounds like somebody just doesn't like the ways receiving pitches. 456 00:25:46,038 --> 00:25:47,878 Speaker 3: And it sounds to me as though, I mean, I 457 00:25:47,918 --> 00:25:50,198 Speaker 3: know him, he'll take that, he'll get better with it, 458 00:25:50,398 --> 00:25:53,078 Speaker 3: he'll make the adjustments. But he has caught some really 459 00:25:53,118 --> 00:25:55,638 Speaker 3: difficult pitchers to catch in some very good ones. 460 00:25:55,878 --> 00:25:58,038 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break when we get back. 461 00:25:58,078 --> 00:26:00,998 Speaker 1: I want to ask Mike Borzello our catching expert here 462 00:26:01,638 --> 00:26:04,678 Speaker 1: about the state of catching in the major leagues right now? 463 00:26:04,718 --> 00:26:06,238 Speaker 2: Are we at a tipping point? 464 00:26:06,838 --> 00:26:07,078 Speaker 4: Back? 465 00:26:07,118 --> 00:26:07,838 Speaker 2: Right after this. 466 00:26:20,358 --> 00:26:23,198 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts and Borzia. 467 00:26:23,278 --> 00:26:25,558 Speaker 1: I mentioned the state of catching because I think in 468 00:26:25,638 --> 00:26:29,158 Speaker 1: this stolen based environment we have now, maybe there should 469 00:26:29,158 --> 00:26:32,958 Speaker 1: be and will be an emphasis again on his throwing 470 00:26:33,038 --> 00:26:35,918 Speaker 1: arms for catchers and defending the running game from behind 471 00:26:35,918 --> 00:26:39,878 Speaker 1: the plate. Let's face it, in the analytical era, you know, 472 00:26:39,998 --> 00:26:42,758 Speaker 1: taking chances on the basis was frowned upon, and I 473 00:26:42,758 --> 00:26:44,598 Speaker 1: think we're we've opened up the game a little bit. 474 00:26:44,758 --> 00:26:47,118 Speaker 1: It's more exciting. And I look around the game now 475 00:26:47,158 --> 00:26:50,638 Speaker 1: and I see some young catchers like Attleie Rushman, Gabriel 476 00:26:50,718 --> 00:26:54,918 Speaker 1: Moreno Logan o'happy is injured right now. It's really impressive 477 00:26:55,438 --> 00:26:58,398 Speaker 1: in a short time with the Angels. Sean Murphy, of course, 478 00:26:58,438 --> 00:27:01,318 Speaker 1: what he's doing with the Braves is just MVP level 479 00:27:01,798 --> 00:27:04,998 Speaker 1: Cape at Ruiz with the with the Nationals, and of 480 00:27:04,998 --> 00:27:08,398 Speaker 1: course Will Smith is still young but a young veteran 481 00:27:08,438 --> 00:27:11,558 Speaker 1: with the Dodgers. So give me your take on catching 482 00:27:11,598 --> 00:27:14,838 Speaker 1: now and maybe what's being emphasized. I know you mentioned 483 00:27:15,078 --> 00:27:18,918 Speaker 1: the one knee, which I don't mind, but I hate 484 00:27:18,918 --> 00:27:24,518 Speaker 1: to see teams prioritize framing low pitches with runners in 485 00:27:24,638 --> 00:27:29,518 Speaker 1: scoring position. They're costing themselves runs and bases. So I 486 00:27:29,558 --> 00:27:31,678 Speaker 1: know that's a lot to take on. But as you 487 00:27:31,678 --> 00:27:33,558 Speaker 1: look at catching around the game, how do you see 488 00:27:33,598 --> 00:27:34,518 Speaker 1: it evolving this year? 489 00:27:35,198 --> 00:27:35,398 Speaker 3: Yeah? 490 00:27:35,478 --> 00:27:41,038 Speaker 4: I mean, this is one of the biggest debate you 491 00:27:41,118 --> 00:27:46,638 Speaker 4: can find in baseball is how the catching position has 492 00:27:46,758 --> 00:27:51,438 Speaker 4: changed over the last three or four years, five years. 493 00:27:53,838 --> 00:27:56,398 Speaker 4: The one knee catching, the one knee catching with a 494 00:27:56,438 --> 00:28:02,878 Speaker 4: man on third, Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, In 495 00:28:02,918 --> 00:28:06,238 Speaker 4: my opinion, one knee catching's fine. One knee catching has 496 00:28:06,238 --> 00:28:09,078 Speaker 4: been going on for one hundred and fifty years when 497 00:28:09,118 --> 00:28:13,598 Speaker 4: there's nobody on base and less than two strikes. It's 498 00:28:13,638 --> 00:28:17,238 Speaker 4: always been around. It's not something new. A lot of 499 00:28:17,238 --> 00:28:22,238 Speaker 4: guys had trouble catching or receiving nasty stuff, so they 500 00:28:22,278 --> 00:28:24,438 Speaker 4: cleared their left knee by putting it on the ground. 501 00:28:26,318 --> 00:28:30,118 Speaker 4: So that's been going on for years. What's changed is 502 00:28:30,158 --> 00:28:33,358 Speaker 4: that now we're doing it with a runner on third. 503 00:28:33,598 --> 00:28:36,838 Speaker 4: Now we're doing it with runners on second and third 504 00:28:36,958 --> 00:28:41,758 Speaker 4: in a tie game, and we're still selling out to 505 00:28:43,078 --> 00:28:46,038 Speaker 4: receiving a ball at the bottom of the zone, and 506 00:28:46,118 --> 00:28:50,558 Speaker 4: we're we're not as concerned with blocking, and it's something 507 00:28:50,638 --> 00:28:53,958 Speaker 4: I don't really understand and I don't agree with. I'm 508 00:28:53,998 --> 00:28:59,678 Speaker 4: all for receiving on one knee whenever you can, when 509 00:28:59,678 --> 00:29:04,998 Speaker 4: it's nobody on base, when it's less than two strikes. Sure, 510 00:29:05,998 --> 00:29:09,678 Speaker 4: if you have an elite athlete behind the plate, like 511 00:29:09,718 --> 00:29:13,078 Speaker 4: a JT. Real Muto who can catch on one knee 512 00:29:13,078 --> 00:29:16,398 Speaker 4: and still throw out of it and still block out 513 00:29:16,398 --> 00:29:19,398 Speaker 4: of it, well then that's a unique skill set. Sure, 514 00:29:19,878 --> 00:29:23,078 Speaker 4: I'm fine with that as well. But there are not 515 00:29:23,198 --> 00:29:25,438 Speaker 4: many JT. Real Muto's out there. 516 00:29:25,798 --> 00:29:27,998 Speaker 1: Yeah, borsy, let me just jump in there, because I 517 00:29:27,998 --> 00:29:32,478 Speaker 1: think that's an important point. It's a system of catching 518 00:29:32,518 --> 00:29:36,998 Speaker 1: that I think not everybody can do well. Like in theory, yes, 519 00:29:37,038 --> 00:29:39,758 Speaker 1: it works, but I see a lot, especially some of 520 00:29:39,758 --> 00:29:43,318 Speaker 1: these bigger catchers, they just can't move as well as 521 00:29:43,358 --> 00:29:45,918 Speaker 1: someone like JT. Who was a high school shortstop and 522 00:29:45,958 --> 00:29:50,078 Speaker 1: a quarterback and a great athlete. He's exceptional. But having 523 00:29:50,078 --> 00:29:52,718 Speaker 1: a one size fits all for different catchers, I don't 524 00:29:52,758 --> 00:29:54,838 Speaker 1: get it. I've seen it. I'm sure you've seen it too. 525 00:29:54,878 --> 00:29:58,078 Speaker 1: It must drive you crazy. Where that catcher on one 526 00:29:58,118 --> 00:30:00,798 Speaker 1: knee with a runner on third base is limited to 527 00:30:00,878 --> 00:30:03,918 Speaker 1: what he can cover only by his reach. In other words, 528 00:30:04,078 --> 00:30:07,718 Speaker 1: he can't shift his body, especially you know, if it's 529 00:30:07,758 --> 00:30:11,398 Speaker 1: across his body on the arm side, it just can't 530 00:30:11,478 --> 00:30:14,958 Speaker 1: cover enough to block a ball to prevent a run. 531 00:30:15,038 --> 00:30:17,998 Speaker 1: And I don't know why teams aren't valuing that. 532 00:30:19,118 --> 00:30:23,358 Speaker 4: It's it's they go off right big bucket sample sizes 533 00:30:23,478 --> 00:30:27,278 Speaker 4: they need. They they believe that you don't alter your 534 00:30:27,318 --> 00:30:31,758 Speaker 4: game based on the situation. That that's what we're doing. 535 00:30:32,198 --> 00:30:37,198 Speaker 4: That that's how the analytics departments think. I understand that 536 00:30:37,278 --> 00:30:41,278 Speaker 4: they go off of large sample sizes, so they don't 537 00:30:41,838 --> 00:30:46,078 Speaker 4: look at the one run in the moment the way 538 00:30:46,118 --> 00:30:50,038 Speaker 4: we do. They look at it as a small sample. 539 00:30:50,438 --> 00:30:54,358 Speaker 4: So for them, it's it's a whole different way of 540 00:30:54,438 --> 00:30:57,758 Speaker 4: looking at the game. I agree with you, Tom, it's 541 00:30:58,318 --> 00:31:01,638 Speaker 4: it drives me nuts when you have a catcher on 542 00:31:01,638 --> 00:31:05,638 Speaker 4: one knee with a man on third and a tie game, 543 00:31:05,718 --> 00:31:10,918 Speaker 4: and he's the catcher calls a two strike slider that 544 00:31:10,998 --> 00:31:13,358 Speaker 4: he knows is probably going to be in the dirt 545 00:31:14,438 --> 00:31:16,678 Speaker 4: and he has no ability to block it to his right, 546 00:31:17,958 --> 00:31:20,278 Speaker 4: and the ball ends up at the backstop and the 547 00:31:20,278 --> 00:31:22,838 Speaker 4: game ends. And we saw it earlier this year. I 548 00:31:22,878 --> 00:31:25,838 Speaker 4: believe we've seen a game end on a ball in 549 00:31:25,878 --> 00:31:28,438 Speaker 4: the dirt go to the backstop. Guy was on one knee. 550 00:31:28,838 --> 00:31:30,798 Speaker 4: He tried to flag it with a backhand and he 551 00:31:30,838 --> 00:31:35,558 Speaker 4: missed it. I mean, it's really there's so many other 552 00:31:35,678 --> 00:31:39,678 Speaker 4: variables to it as well, because we don't talk about 553 00:31:40,678 --> 00:31:43,518 Speaker 4: the fact that that pitcher who threw that pitch that 554 00:31:43,678 --> 00:31:46,358 Speaker 4: ended up in the backstop, at the backstop and now 555 00:31:46,398 --> 00:31:51,318 Speaker 4: that run scores the next time out. He's either not 556 00:31:51,438 --> 00:31:54,438 Speaker 4: as apt to bounce that slider, which he should do 557 00:31:54,558 --> 00:31:56,918 Speaker 4: to this hitter to get him to swing and miss. 558 00:31:57,478 --> 00:31:59,798 Speaker 4: So now he's not going to bounce that slider because 559 00:31:59,798 --> 00:32:02,038 Speaker 4: he doesn't want the same result that happened last week. 560 00:32:03,438 --> 00:32:06,478 Speaker 4: Or he's not gonna throw that slider, and he's gonna 561 00:32:06,478 --> 00:32:09,318 Speaker 4: throw a fastball, which is not the right pitch to throw, 562 00:32:09,838 --> 00:32:11,998 Speaker 4: but because of his fear of giving up that run 563 00:32:12,038 --> 00:32:14,358 Speaker 4: at third, because the catcher is not going to block 564 00:32:14,398 --> 00:32:18,958 Speaker 4: the ball. All these little things that happen that no 565 00:32:19,038 --> 00:32:22,958 Speaker 4: one really discusses. It's a domino effect of how it 566 00:32:23,038 --> 00:32:28,278 Speaker 4: affects the mindset of a pitcher and a catcher. I 567 00:32:28,318 --> 00:32:31,438 Speaker 4: mean catchers at times when they don't think they can 568 00:32:31,518 --> 00:32:35,158 Speaker 4: block a pitch, especially at the end of their careers 569 00:32:35,158 --> 00:32:38,638 Speaker 4: when they get older, they don't call that pitch. They 570 00:32:38,678 --> 00:32:41,438 Speaker 4: go to the pitch they can catch. And that is 571 00:32:42,318 --> 00:32:46,478 Speaker 4: what's happening here as well. That I just think there's 572 00:32:46,558 --> 00:32:51,238 Speaker 4: so many other discussions that can be had about this 573 00:32:51,318 --> 00:32:55,598 Speaker 4: stuff that haven't been had. You know, there's just so 574 00:32:55,758 --> 00:33:01,958 Speaker 4: many different things that go into this position and uh yeah, 575 00:33:01,998 --> 00:33:06,918 Speaker 4: this one knee with this one nie set, with runners 576 00:33:06,918 --> 00:33:10,838 Speaker 4: in scoring position and allowing balls to get past you 577 00:33:11,558 --> 00:33:14,518 Speaker 4: and we're calling them wild pitches is to me, is 578 00:33:14,918 --> 00:33:15,558 Speaker 4: just not right. 579 00:33:15,878 --> 00:33:18,038 Speaker 3: I just wrote it down confidence of the pitcher throwing 580 00:33:18,038 --> 00:33:21,838 Speaker 3: a pitch in that situation, and over a period of time, 581 00:33:21,838 --> 00:33:24,078 Speaker 3: you're right, he's just not going to bear it anymore. 582 00:33:24,638 --> 00:33:28,838 Speaker 3: And you spoke to the point of the large sample size. 583 00:33:28,838 --> 00:33:31,798 Speaker 3: And that's the one thing that as all that's been 584 00:33:32,118 --> 00:33:35,838 Speaker 3: that's been most bothersome to me as a manager using 585 00:33:35,878 --> 00:33:38,958 Speaker 3: analytics during the game is the fact that we're always 586 00:33:39,038 --> 00:33:41,638 Speaker 3: just going off of a large sample size. And I'm 587 00:33:41,638 --> 00:33:45,118 Speaker 3: here to say, and I've asked every organization I've been 588 00:33:45,158 --> 00:33:48,238 Speaker 3: with to build me a matrix with trends involved in 589 00:33:48,278 --> 00:33:52,358 Speaker 3: not just large sample size, because things change from week 590 00:33:52,398 --> 00:33:55,558 Speaker 3: to week. Things change from month to month, things change, 591 00:33:55,598 --> 00:33:58,398 Speaker 3: players change over the course of time. But we're always 592 00:33:58,438 --> 00:34:02,678 Speaker 3: facing our decision making on this large number because eventually, yeah, 593 00:34:02,798 --> 00:34:05,318 Speaker 3: over time it possibly well, it's going to come back. 594 00:34:05,358 --> 00:34:07,958 Speaker 3: But losing that one game or those two games, are 595 00:34:07,958 --> 00:34:11,198 Speaker 3: that five game losing street that can bury you in 596 00:34:11,278 --> 00:34:15,238 Speaker 3: a particular month or in a week. You could may 597 00:34:15,278 --> 00:34:17,758 Speaker 3: have been avoidable had we just followed maybe a little 598 00:34:17,758 --> 00:34:21,998 Speaker 3: bit different plan based on guys that are hot right now, 599 00:34:22,038 --> 00:34:24,398 Speaker 3: Guys that are not hot right now, guys that are 600 00:34:24,398 --> 00:34:26,958 Speaker 3: not themselves, guys that are really not very good but 601 00:34:26,998 --> 00:34:29,478 Speaker 3: all of a sudden are and how do we treat 602 00:34:29,518 --> 00:34:31,878 Speaker 3: them under those circumstances. I know, Bores, when he's doing 603 00:34:31,878 --> 00:34:35,198 Speaker 3: his things, he's going to identify, specifically outside of the 604 00:34:35,278 --> 00:34:37,438 Speaker 3: large sample sites, who do we have to be careful 605 00:34:37,478 --> 00:34:40,278 Speaker 3: with right now? And maybe the dude on the other 606 00:34:40,318 --> 00:34:42,598 Speaker 3: side that is the is the guy we're going to 607 00:34:42,638 --> 00:34:44,918 Speaker 3: go after him. He is all screwed up right now, 608 00:34:44,958 --> 00:34:47,798 Speaker 3: he's not seeing the ball. Well, my pitcher versus him, 609 00:34:47,838 --> 00:34:51,238 Speaker 3: my stuff really matches up well right now, Let's attack him, 610 00:34:51,438 --> 00:34:53,678 Speaker 3: and let's be careful with somebody else, just based on 611 00:34:53,758 --> 00:34:56,558 Speaker 3: the last week or ten days, and that's the part 612 00:34:56,678 --> 00:35:00,318 Speaker 3: of this that always frustrated me managing wise. I want, 613 00:35:00,438 --> 00:35:03,798 Speaker 3: I want, I want somebody to tell me, show me, Trent, 614 00:35:04,358 --> 00:35:06,518 Speaker 3: show me what's going on right now, tell me this 615 00:35:06,638 --> 00:35:08,758 Speaker 3: large sample size, give it to me. I want it, Yes, 616 00:35:09,038 --> 00:35:12,438 Speaker 3: but what's happening right now? And make our adjustments according 617 00:35:12,438 --> 00:35:16,398 Speaker 3: to that, Ie, run around third base, tie score on 618 00:35:16,478 --> 00:35:19,678 Speaker 3: the road? Can I bury this slider or not? Do 619 00:35:19,758 --> 00:35:22,518 Speaker 3: I have confidence that my catcher has the technique in 620 00:35:22,558 --> 00:35:24,598 Speaker 3: the ability to block this pitch that I need to make. 621 00:35:25,038 --> 00:35:26,718 Speaker 3: Those are the kind of thoughts that need to be 622 00:35:26,758 --> 00:35:27,838 Speaker 3: a nurtured more I think. 623 00:35:28,198 --> 00:35:33,278 Speaker 4: I agree, Joe. I agree. I also think game state matters, right. 624 00:35:33,398 --> 00:35:36,798 Speaker 1: Yeap, of course, yeah, I mean, Mike, this has just 625 00:35:36,838 --> 00:35:40,718 Speaker 1: been fascinating, fascinating insights into not just Wilson Contreras, but 626 00:35:41,598 --> 00:35:44,678 Speaker 1: catching and what goes on behind the scenes. 627 00:35:44,998 --> 00:35:46,438 Speaker 2: We do have one more job for. 628 00:35:46,438 --> 00:35:48,998 Speaker 1: You before we go here, though, and it's easy, you 629 00:35:49,038 --> 00:35:52,478 Speaker 1: believe me. We call it a reading from the Book 630 00:35:52,518 --> 00:35:57,438 Speaker 1: of Joe. We ask our guests to pick a number 631 00:35:57,478 --> 00:35:59,958 Speaker 1: between one and three hundred and sixty eight, and we'll 632 00:35:59,998 --> 00:36:03,278 Speaker 1: turn to that page in our book, the Book of Joe. 633 00:36:04,558 --> 00:36:07,838 Speaker 2: So you're at bet. Mike Borzello, it's your call. 634 00:36:07,998 --> 00:36:10,558 Speaker 1: You pick a number, any number between one and three 635 00:36:10,598 --> 00:36:11,158 Speaker 1: sixty eight. 636 00:36:11,678 --> 00:36:14,278 Speaker 4: All right, I'll pick my cub number, number fifty. 637 00:36:13,998 --> 00:36:17,878 Speaker 2: Eight, number fifty eight. Why was that your cub number? 638 00:36:17,878 --> 00:36:19,958 Speaker 4: By the way, I don't know. They issued it to 639 00:36:20,038 --> 00:36:23,638 Speaker 4: me and it stuck. It stuck. 640 00:36:23,838 --> 00:36:27,798 Speaker 3: Otis Tomothy Tomothy gave it to him. 641 00:36:28,998 --> 00:36:31,998 Speaker 1: Okay, this is one of Joe's favorite games. Actually, Game 642 00:36:32,158 --> 00:36:37,118 Speaker 1: four National League Championship Series. Remember this one, Mike, Oh yeah, 643 00:36:37,238 --> 00:36:39,998 Speaker 1: Cubs are losing five to two on the road against 644 00:36:39,998 --> 00:36:40,558 Speaker 1: the Giants. 645 00:36:40,598 --> 00:36:41,518 Speaker 2: In the ninth inning. 646 00:36:41,918 --> 00:36:43,918 Speaker 1: They were three outs away from having to play a 647 00:36:43,958 --> 00:36:47,278 Speaker 1: winner take all Game five against San Francisco, and it's 648 00:36:47,398 --> 00:36:50,438 Speaker 1: ace Johnny Quato, who had dominated them in Game one 649 00:36:50,518 --> 00:36:54,438 Speaker 1: with no walks and ten punchouts over eight innings. We 650 00:36:54,518 --> 00:36:56,638 Speaker 1: beat them one nothing in Game one with Hobby baya 651 00:36:56,718 --> 00:36:58,198 Speaker 1: Is hitting a home right into the wind in the 652 00:36:58,238 --> 00:37:01,238 Speaker 1: basket left field men says, I did not want to 653 00:37:01,278 --> 00:37:04,518 Speaker 1: see Cueto again. That's all I could think about Game four. 654 00:37:04,998 --> 00:37:07,558 Speaker 1: And these Giants have been battle tested, they had won 655 00:37:07,638 --> 00:37:10,718 Speaker 1: three in the past six World Series. We don't want 656 00:37:10,718 --> 00:37:13,718 Speaker 1: to mess with a Game five with these guys, right, 657 00:37:13,718 --> 00:37:18,238 Speaker 1: there ninth inning, down three, Quato looming. Any decision I'm 658 00:37:18,278 --> 00:37:22,158 Speaker 1: making has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything 659 00:37:22,238 --> 00:37:25,358 Speaker 1: to do with what I'm feeling and seeing in the moment. 660 00:37:26,238 --> 00:37:29,918 Speaker 1: And boy, that was one of the great postseason rallies 661 00:37:30,078 --> 00:37:34,398 Speaker 1: you will ever see. Bruce Bochi kept madly changing relief pitchers. 662 00:37:34,838 --> 00:37:37,118 Speaker 1: Joe Madden had an answer for all of them. Hobby 663 00:37:37,158 --> 00:37:39,358 Speaker 1: bay As I think was it Hobby Bya's two strike 664 00:37:39,438 --> 00:37:41,398 Speaker 1: hit winds up putting you into the lead, and. 665 00:37:42,958 --> 00:37:47,558 Speaker 2: You move on and avoided seeing Johnny Equato. Remember that one, 666 00:37:47,598 --> 00:37:48,278 Speaker 2: Mike Borzello. 667 00:37:48,798 --> 00:37:52,558 Speaker 4: I do remember that one vividly. And I also used 668 00:37:52,638 --> 00:37:56,118 Speaker 4: that game as an example of putting the ball in 669 00:37:56,238 --> 00:38:02,118 Speaker 4: play matters, because Hobby hit that seventy mile an hour 670 00:38:02,198 --> 00:38:06,278 Speaker 4: grounder up the middle, and Wilson comes up and does 671 00:38:06,318 --> 00:38:10,478 Speaker 4: the exact same thing. We had two seeing eye ground 672 00:38:10,518 --> 00:38:16,038 Speaker 4: balls that helped us win that game, I mean, because 673 00:38:16,038 --> 00:38:17,838 Speaker 4: we did not want to faith Quato again. 674 00:38:18,118 --> 00:38:19,758 Speaker 3: That's exactly right, right. 675 00:38:19,638 --> 00:38:22,758 Speaker 1: Wilson contreres our guy is the two runs single. He 676 00:38:22,798 --> 00:38:24,238 Speaker 1: was a pinch hitter for the pinch hitter. 677 00:38:24,278 --> 00:38:27,318 Speaker 3: That's correct. For that's correct. It went from did it 678 00:38:27,398 --> 00:38:32,318 Speaker 3: go from Russell Addison to Coglin, back to Controerse. I 679 00:38:32,318 --> 00:38:35,438 Speaker 3: think that's up when based on what they were doing. 680 00:38:35,598 --> 00:38:37,518 Speaker 3: And yeah, he just poked it back up the middle. 681 00:38:38,038 --> 00:38:40,198 Speaker 3: And then Hobby, I mean that's that's the point. I mean, 682 00:38:40,198 --> 00:38:42,918 Speaker 3: the small sample size, what do you need in the moment, 683 00:38:43,558 --> 00:38:47,558 Speaker 3: And and you have to have this ability to downshift. 684 00:38:47,598 --> 00:38:49,398 Speaker 3: You got to down shift, you got to move the ball, 685 00:38:49,398 --> 00:38:51,038 Speaker 3: you got to put it in play. Can always be 686 00:38:51,838 --> 00:38:53,718 Speaker 3: about the ball in the gap or over the wall. 687 00:38:53,838 --> 00:38:56,598 Speaker 3: So our guys did a great job. And like like 688 00:38:56,678 --> 00:38:59,038 Speaker 3: you just read in the book right there, I did 689 00:38:59,078 --> 00:39:01,518 Speaker 3: not want to see Quato again. He was that good. 690 00:39:02,198 --> 00:39:03,838 Speaker 3: And to me, that was the game that won the 691 00:39:03,918 --> 00:39:04,838 Speaker 3: World Series for us. 692 00:39:05,398 --> 00:39:05,958 Speaker 4: I agree. 693 00:39:06,118 --> 00:39:09,038 Speaker 1: That is just amazing, Mike, that somehow you brought this 694 00:39:09,198 --> 00:39:11,678 Speaker 1: back to where we started. 695 00:39:12,038 --> 00:39:16,438 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, chick it out of that. That so good. 696 00:39:17,518 --> 00:39:20,158 Speaker 2: This has been a blast mic, really interesting stuff. You're 697 00:39:20,158 --> 00:39:21,878 Speaker 2: the best. We appreciate all your time. 698 00:39:22,358 --> 00:39:24,078 Speaker 4: Of course, thanks for having me, guys. 699 00:39:24,238 --> 00:39:26,358 Speaker 3: And before you leave, Boors, I just I want to 700 00:39:26,398 --> 00:39:30,198 Speaker 3: say something because I mean this sincerely. Uh you know, 701 00:39:30,518 --> 00:39:33,318 Speaker 3: to me, Bors is like the first guy you want 702 00:39:33,318 --> 00:39:35,598 Speaker 3: to hire on a coaching staff, No, no doubt. If 703 00:39:35,638 --> 00:39:38,718 Speaker 3: you're if you're searching or seeking to put your major 704 00:39:38,758 --> 00:39:43,878 Speaker 3: league staff together. His talents and his abilities are are 705 00:39:44,038 --> 00:39:47,558 Speaker 3: better than anybody else I've been with in this particular position. 706 00:39:49,518 --> 00:39:53,518 Speaker 3: I don't think that that's well known enough, So I 707 00:39:53,678 --> 00:39:55,318 Speaker 3: just just for the sake of but I just want 708 00:39:55,358 --> 00:39:57,438 Speaker 3: to say it out loud because I've seen him as 709 00:39:57,438 --> 00:39:59,518 Speaker 3: a difference maker and then you've already heard it, not 710 00:39:59,598 --> 00:40:02,278 Speaker 3: afraid to give his opinion. I think in today's game, 711 00:40:02,318 --> 00:40:06,798 Speaker 3: in today's world in general, everybody wants agreeable agreeables on 712 00:40:06,838 --> 00:40:09,278 Speaker 3: their staff or with their group. I like those that 713 00:40:09,278 --> 00:40:11,718 Speaker 3: are a little bit of a contrarian at times, and 714 00:40:12,558 --> 00:40:14,798 Speaker 3: then after you've made your decision, let's go on and 715 00:40:15,358 --> 00:40:17,198 Speaker 3: move it in the right direction. So boys, he's going 716 00:40:17,238 --> 00:40:19,078 Speaker 3: to tell you what he's thinking. He's not going to 717 00:40:19,078 --> 00:40:20,798 Speaker 3: tell you what you want to hear. And to me, 718 00:40:20,878 --> 00:40:23,038 Speaker 3: that's the most valuable kind of coach you can have 719 00:40:23,118 --> 00:40:25,318 Speaker 3: on the staff. So Michael, Mike got up at six 720 00:40:25,358 --> 00:40:27,398 Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning in Sacra Meto today to be 721 00:40:27,518 --> 00:40:30,078 Speaker 3: with us, and so I appreciate a brother. And again, 722 00:40:30,118 --> 00:40:30,598 Speaker 3: you never. 723 00:40:30,518 --> 00:40:34,278 Speaker 4: Disappoint oh anytime. Thanks Joe, I appreciate it, right man, 724 00:40:34,638 --> 00:40:35,238 Speaker 4: Thank you Mike. 725 00:40:35,598 --> 00:40:38,518 Speaker 1: Well, Joe, that was a fascinating discussion. I found it 726 00:40:38,558 --> 00:40:40,958 Speaker 1: really interesting when Mike talked about how much the catching 727 00:40:40,998 --> 00:40:42,438 Speaker 1: position has changed. 728 00:40:42,438 --> 00:40:45,558 Speaker 2: Just in the last three or four years. My goodness. 729 00:40:45,878 --> 00:40:50,198 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and typically you heard in this conversation, 730 00:40:50,278 --> 00:40:54,238 Speaker 3: I thought he was outstanding. Typically that's what I get 731 00:40:54,278 --> 00:40:56,158 Speaker 3: every day. When you work with bors the every day, 732 00:40:56,198 --> 00:40:59,318 Speaker 3: that's what you get. So he's there's going to be 733 00:40:59,358 --> 00:41:01,558 Speaker 3: times he's gonna be a little rough because he's just 734 00:41:01,638 --> 00:41:03,118 Speaker 3: telling you what he thinks. He puts a lot of 735 00:41:03,158 --> 00:41:05,638 Speaker 3: time into this. He can be very emotional about his work, 736 00:41:06,158 --> 00:41:08,278 Speaker 3: but at the end of the day, it's really good 737 00:41:08,478 --> 00:41:11,118 Speaker 3: work and it and it does it holds up. I've 738 00:41:11,118 --> 00:41:14,278 Speaker 3: seen it hold up. It's that much faith or confidence 739 00:41:14,318 --> 00:41:16,958 Speaker 3: in his abilities. And to me, the fact that he's 740 00:41:16,998 --> 00:41:19,638 Speaker 3: not in a dugout somewhere right now really blows me away. 741 00:41:19,638 --> 00:41:22,398 Speaker 3: And not just I mean sometimes I you know, again, 742 00:41:22,478 --> 00:41:25,678 Speaker 3: he can't be difficult sometimes only because he's very opinionated. 743 00:41:25,718 --> 00:41:28,558 Speaker 3: And that's what you've got to get past. Because he's 744 00:41:28,598 --> 00:41:31,758 Speaker 3: that he's that solid and his and his his information 745 00:41:32,318 --> 00:41:34,598 Speaker 3: is really going to be that pertinent to the game. 746 00:41:35,238 --> 00:41:37,758 Speaker 3: And heck, if I ever got a job again. Ever, 747 00:41:37,798 --> 00:41:39,398 Speaker 3: he'd be one. He'd be the first guy, and Tim 748 00:41:39,398 --> 00:41:41,758 Speaker 3: Buss told be the second guy that I would hire. 749 00:41:41,958 --> 00:41:45,078 Speaker 3: I think that they are that good. Uh. They they're 750 00:41:45,118 --> 00:41:48,758 Speaker 3: difference makers. And I can't tell. I'm telling you, when 751 00:41:48,798 --> 00:41:51,398 Speaker 3: you hire coaches, you want guys that could really make 752 00:41:51,438 --> 00:41:54,558 Speaker 3: a difference. That they do something that nobody else, No 753 00:41:54,598 --> 00:41:58,678 Speaker 3: other coaches are capable of doing that you could possibly hire. 754 00:41:59,038 --> 00:42:03,158 Speaker 3: Bors's one, Bussy's another. They're just difference makers and and 755 00:42:03,158 --> 00:42:07,038 Speaker 3: and they're they're their skill set is unique. And I 756 00:42:07,038 --> 00:42:08,718 Speaker 3: guess and I'm going on and on about him, and 757 00:42:08,718 --> 00:42:11,478 Speaker 3: I'm just telling you he was that vital right down 758 00:42:11,558 --> 00:42:13,918 Speaker 3: to the last pitch in the World Series when he 759 00:42:13,998 --> 00:42:16,838 Speaker 3: knew Martinez could not hit a Leeftenant curveball and you 760 00:42:16,878 --> 00:42:19,718 Speaker 3: saw that chopper to third base to KB. Yeah. 761 00:42:19,758 --> 00:42:22,518 Speaker 1: And it's so important, you know this, Joe, to have 762 00:42:22,598 --> 00:42:26,758 Speaker 1: people on your staff who will challenge your way of thinking, 763 00:42:27,358 --> 00:42:30,598 Speaker 1: not just rubber stampish and agree with it. 764 00:42:30,718 --> 00:42:32,838 Speaker 3: I want that. I need that for me to be 765 00:42:32,878 --> 00:42:35,398 Speaker 3: good at what I do. I need that. And I 766 00:42:35,398 --> 00:42:37,278 Speaker 3: think if I have a sprint as a manager, as 767 00:42:37,278 --> 00:42:39,718 Speaker 3: the coaches that I do delegate responsibility, I don't want 768 00:42:39,718 --> 00:42:41,718 Speaker 3: to do your job. That's your job to do. I 769 00:42:41,758 --> 00:42:43,998 Speaker 3: got my job to do. And with guys like boards 770 00:42:44,158 --> 00:42:46,918 Speaker 3: on the staff, you know you just you hand it off. 771 00:42:46,918 --> 00:42:48,998 Speaker 3: You hand it off. He goes, he runs with it, 772 00:42:49,478 --> 00:42:51,518 Speaker 3: and I promise you it's going to be a great result. 773 00:42:52,198 --> 00:42:53,838 Speaker 3: A lot of time and work goes into it. It's 774 00:42:53,838 --> 00:42:56,838 Speaker 3: his own method. You've been borzelloed. I'm telling you it matters. 775 00:42:56,798 --> 00:43:00,558 Speaker 1: All right, Joe, as an old catcher yourself, it's your 776 00:43:00,638 --> 00:43:03,238 Speaker 1: call here, you call the pitch to take us home. 777 00:43:03,278 --> 00:43:03,798 Speaker 2: What do you got? 778 00:43:04,518 --> 00:43:06,758 Speaker 3: Twain again? I had to go Twain. The two most 779 00:43:06,758 --> 00:43:09,118 Speaker 3: important days of your life were the day that you're born, 780 00:43:10,158 --> 00:43:12,878 Speaker 3: and that the day that you find out why. And 781 00:43:12,958 --> 00:43:15,198 Speaker 3: I think I found out that why was the fact 782 00:43:15,198 --> 00:43:18,158 Speaker 3: that I would meet Mike Borzello someday. 783 00:43:18,998 --> 00:43:21,878 Speaker 2: I love it. Can't go wrong with Mark, No, I 784 00:43:21,958 --> 00:43:23,438 Speaker 2: cannot see next time. 785 00:43:23,518 --> 00:43:25,278 Speaker 3: Joe, all right, buddy, nice job. 786 00:43:32,558 --> 00:43:35,798 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. 787 00:43:35,998 --> 00:43:40,878 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 788 00:43:41,118 --> 00:43:42,878 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.