WEBVTT - Third Culture 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:08.440 M M. What does the diaspora mean to you? The 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:13.400 diaspora to disperse a scattered population whose origins lie in 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:20.160 a separate geographic locale. The diaspora is not a singular 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:25.200 experience originating from one place. It is a multitude, a 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:33.360 complex experience with many origins. Diasporic Food Waves examines how 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.000 food has traveled from origin to adopt at home and 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.680 in doing so, taken on new meaning while steadfastly keeping 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:48.159 communities connected to their heritage in many instances, and the 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:54.960 grappling is the creation of a third culture. In today's episode, 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:58.360 we hear from several voices connecting us to Diasporic Food Waves. 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.840 At Third Culture Bait gree in Berkeley, California. The team 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.520 shares with us how they're Mochi muffins connect their Indonesian 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.800 in Taiwanese heritage. Katherine Bowen tells us the story of 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:14.760 honoring her roots through Paboosa's the iconic Salvadorian flatbread. The 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.720 chef Ashley Shanti, who lives in the Appalachian South, tells 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.880 her story and amplifies those of African Americans and her 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:27.080 hybrid West African and Appalachian cuisine. We learned how to 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.200 make another kind of flatbread, the Jamaican miannike case, a 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.360 dish with Afro Caribbean origins popular on the Atlantic Coast, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:39.800 and finally a rohein the Rain. Unpacks the colonial history 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.880 of Japanese curry as a cultural and culinary artifact from 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:50.400 the perspective of an Indian woman in Tokyo. On today's 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:54.040 episode of Plant of Origin, we're exploring what the diaspora 0:01:54.200 --> 0:02:12.799 means and how it informs and enriches our food. I 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.200 grew up in the Indonesia and also in New York City. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.440 That's Sam boots Are Boots Are. He's the co owner 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:23.040 in chef at Third Culture Bakery in Oakland, California. So 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.880 we kind of identified as Third Culture kids, and it 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.240 was kind of like more of a sociology term, and 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.880 it was trying to describe kids who originally they grew 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.600 up in a an immigrant family and they didn't particularly 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.240 attach themselves to the culture where they grew up nor 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:46.960 to the culture where they were born. My partner, I 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.240 felt that we were too white to be Asian and 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.080 too Asian to be white, ended up forming our own culture, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.240 our third interpretation of it. We wanted to create a 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.239 bakery basically that tells that story and all the flavors 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:03.480 and all the pastries and drinks a third culture. They're 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:08.040 epanomizing third culture by creating mochi muffins and mochi donuts, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:13.000 an Asian dessert molded into an American pastry. And I 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.960 I also really missed all these flavors that I grew 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.680 up eating, all these tropical fruits like passion food and 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:23.280 glove and mango. Selfishly, I want to eat all these things. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.960 I really wanted to create a bakery, and I actually 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.360 partnered my partner Winter, he was born in Taiwan but 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.520 also grew up in l A came and it was like, 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.400 you know, I kind of want to create a bakery 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:39.160 where it reflects our upbringing. When Sam and his co 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.320 founder Winter launched their bakery, they lead with the intention 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:48.040 of creating the pastries of their childhood. Yeah. The first 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.520 adapt adaptation was actually just taking taking my mom's recipe 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.480 and kind of putting it in a muffin tin um. 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.120 That's how it started. I still remember the first night 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.800 I made it and is just shocked at how this 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.360 contrast of texture that you get out of baking emoji, 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:08.560 and you know, the outside gets kind of crispy and 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:14.400 crunchy and the insights stay soft and gooey. Let's talk 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.600 about one of the ingredients that makes these cultural ties, 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.880 and that is the mochi itself. So could you explain 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:27.200 to us what is mochi Mochi is. It's a type 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.560 of rice. It's basically glutinous rice. It's a variety of 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.680 rice that is cultivated to have more a specific starch, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.120 kurd amulose. So when it's cooked, it kind of connects together. 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:44.400 It forms this kind of sticky network, sticky chewy network. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.680 The word mochi itself is actually Japanese, but the crop 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.640 itself um is from China. You know, the species of 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.640 rice comes from and it ever since it's spread to Japan, 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.440 it's spread to the Southeast Asian, and it's spread to Thailand. 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.719 So it's very interesting in that Japanese UM, Japanese, Southeast 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:11.640 Asian and Chinese they all now have their own varieties 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.960 of mochi rice. They have different qualities. The Japanese is 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.920 more supple, more soft um. The Southeast Asian is more firm. 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.839 In China and Japan, the mochi tends to be pounded 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.239 into this kind of soft, sticky thing and Um, usually 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.400 it's stuffed um, I believe in China. UM. In Indonesia, though, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:37.719 UM it tends to be more like the steam cake 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:42.080 that I told you, where it's layered and it's cut UM. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.560 I think because of the fact that Indonesian they just 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:51.039 love to eat snats on the go. You mentioned that 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.599 when you were a child, you grew up eating these 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:59.440 pastries called kol at bees. They're a Southeast Asian steamed cake. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.280 Can you tell us more about the pastry and your 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:08.960 childhood memories of having this dish? Yeah, super special dish. 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.880 My my mom usually she makes it during the big 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.000 holiday Christmas and New Year's UM. And it's a super 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.640 traditional cake that you make kind of a batter, kind 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.239 of a thin batter with rice flour, coconut milk. And 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.680 traditionally in Southeast Asian pastries they use this herb called 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.240 pandan and if you ever if you ever google it, 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:35.720 it looks like this long kind of grassy leaf and um, 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.359 so at these Asian people, they Indonesian and Malaysian and 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.440 type UM cooking uses this leaf as a flavoring and 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.240 it smells a lot like vanilla, like a very grassy sweet, 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.000 and so she would kind of blend out all together 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:55.440 and um, have a giant steamer going on, and would 0:06:55.480 --> 0:07:00.080 pour this batter close the lid and and and then 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.040 the batter would kind of like thicken into this kind 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.240 of um trewy layer, and then she would keep adding layer, 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.240 and she would pour another second layer, close the lid, 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.160 and so um it would have this like, you know, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.280 ten or fifteen layers. And usually she makes it kind 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.720 of little fun and it's different colors. There's like green 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.440 and red, um, depending on what kind of flavorings or 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:23.800 what kind of color she uses. And then when it's 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.120 all done, she would let it cool, take it out 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.200 of the steamer, let it cool, and then unmolded and 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.560 when you cut it, you see these beautiful lines. And 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.760 as a kid, I just remember loving and I don't 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.360 know if this is like a childhood thing, but I 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.920 think kids love chewy things, you know, So it has chewy, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.040 sticky kind of sticks in your teeth kind of consistency. 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:50.800 Um kind of this netty coconutty flavor, but very subtle um. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:52.320 And yeah, that was my memory of it. And my 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.360 mom would always because It's such a long process to make, 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.320 and she would make the batter from from whole rice, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.640 like whole grain rice, so she would have to soak 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.040 it overnight and then blended in the morning. So it 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.640 was it was a very special dessert, time consuming, and 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.000 you would only do it for your family or a 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.160 loved one. So Um, I think a lot of Indonesian 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:18.400 kids have a very special memory of that, you know, 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.480 um telling the story of why the pastry meant so 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.400 much for me and what I wanted to do. But Um, 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.120 I think I think that the pastry itself and the 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.600 storytelling together kind of just made a life of its own. 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.720 And I'm just still amazed to this day that so 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:42.080 many people eat our pastries because of that. Sam and 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.360 I start to talk about fusion cuisine. Is there a 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:51.040 conflict between preserving and honoring tradition. How do foods and 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:57.160 recipes modernize and how do they modernized based on location 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.920 and adaptation. I fee like Asian cuisine as like more 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.760 of a trophy, and I feel a lot of places 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.880 do that. They just they disfuse cuisine for the sake 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.000 of using cuisine, and I feel a lot of time 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.480 they don't understand the heart of like, you know, the 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.480 heart of Japanese cooking, like what is it, or the 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.200 heart of Vietnamese cooking. And I feel that a lot 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.360 of times it's it goes a right just because they 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.440 don't really understand the history and the flavor, and and 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.320 for me, at the end of the day, it's just 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.319 it has to taste good. You know. There is a 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.680 lot of resistance from people who are kind of purist 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.720 and being like, oh, that's not you know, that's not 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.840 Indonesian food, or that's not Vietnamese food. And I think 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.920 for us, we are not trying to make Indonesian pastry. 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.800 And I think if you acknowledge the fact that you're 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.400 not trying to make Vietnamese cuisine modern quote unpute modern 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.760 or Vietnamese cuisine better um, and you're trying to like 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.240 lift it up from the you know, the Dark Ages 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.120 or whatever and the savior kind of mentality, I think 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.960 that that's when it gets troubling. And for us, it's like, 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.280 you know, weird, Well, I'm just trying to make stuff 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.080 that that I grew up with and I'm trying to 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.920 make it to my interpretation in and I'm not calling 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:11.560 it necessarily American food. I'm not necessarily Asian Indonesian. It's 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.480 kind of like a thing of its own, and it's 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.880 it's a very thin line. I think any exposure of 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:24.360 um other culture that I'm there underrepresentative, I think is 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.559 a good thing. But I think that the intention has 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.559 to be there, a good intention, and not just for 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:41.280 the sake of doing it. Yeah, so you bring up 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.960 many good points here. I agree with you fundamentally that 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:50.720 Asian cuisine as a moniker is absurdly broad, and it's 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.600 also usually the first cuisine that comes to mind when 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.800 we think of fusion and we think of all the 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.440 parts of fusion that have gone awry. Uh. It's like 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:05.800 if you just slap Asian or Pan Asian alongside any 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.640 other global cuisine, we just call it fusion. Um. So 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:15.240 that is understandably maddening. Um. I'm really interested in what 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:20.560 you said around the fear of bringing this savior complex 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.360 into into your cooking. Um. I haven't exactly thought of 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.680 it in those terms. I mean, of course we we 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.080 know about the savior complex outside of food as a concept, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.680 but as a third culture, kid, it seems that you're 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:38.520 saving the cuisine by not being a purist or I 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.240 think that's really too much to ask if anyone cooking 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.600 the food of their childhood or the food of their memory. 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.040 I think a lot of those in the naming because 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:52.720 the naming kind of um presents the viewpoint, you know, um. 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.439 And I think I think for me, the most compelling, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.079 the most compelling cuisine, I think I always say it 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.440 has a sense of time and space. Um. And I 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.679 always tell my my partner Winter, you know, I was like, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.200 you know, when we go to a restaurant, I just 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:10.280 love places that just feels that it belongs to a 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.240 time and space. And not necessarily that has to be 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.920 authentic or it has to be like true to whatever 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.800 tastes it comes from that country. But I think it's 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:25.800 just like it speaks very um honestly about like where 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:30.680 they interpret the cuisine. So why is it perceived as 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:37.200 acceptable to take French or Italian dishes and adapt them. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:42.040 Sam has a perfect explanation and it's not one lacking nuance. 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.959 You know, we we find it acceptable, and myself included 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.880 if if someone makes an Italian or French and you know, 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.000 even if they're not French or they're taking into another direction. 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.280 Society accepts it and cognizant of what I find to 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.439 be true is that I think a lot of Asian 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:06.240 cuisine have had so much history of just colonization and 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.360 history of change. And that's part of the reason why 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.200 Asian chefs and you know, third culture kids who who 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.160 want to make these food are more aware of it. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.839 And I think the same can't be necessarily said about 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.320 French or Italian just because it's so ingrained and so 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.960 part of the American culture already, and so there's you know, 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.439 there's there's a lot of history there, and and I 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.679 feel that a lot of food that we make are 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:47.120 also reflective of these occupation times. I wish I could 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.720 tell you I came from a family that cooked together 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.839 from an early age. I helped my mother recreated a 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.360 beloved dishes from her birthplace, outs off the door. I 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.480 wish I could say I looked like her, because she 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.200 has always been consummate beauty. I wish I could claim 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:09.040 that I spoke fast, seamless Spanish with her. That's Katherine Bowen. 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.280 Katherine is an Oakland based writer with a background in 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.920 law and food policy, and is a first generation Salvadorian. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.320 The truth is that I'm often ashamed of my Spanish, 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.560 which is choppy and littered with English words, in part 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.240 because my father insisted that growing up we speak a 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.720 language he understood. The reality is that I received his 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.680 skin and European last name, and though there is undoubtedly 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.880 privilege that attends to those attributes, they made me feel 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:41.520 less able to claim my Salvadoran ancestry. My cultural, linguistic, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.200 and physical and securities were in some ways exacerbated in 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.720 my birthplace, Miami, Florida, where the population is predominantly Hispanic, 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.800 but I never felt Latina enough. Looking back now, I 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.000 partly attribute my early cultural dissonance to narrative. As a child, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:02.080 I heard only conflict written story of Salvador, a place 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.800 that my mother says she escaped, where I learned she 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.120 ran from police after peaceful protests, had friends shot at, 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:12.400 acquaintances kidnapped, among so many other casualties of the country's 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:16.720 twenty years civil war. We didn't discuss home cooked salvador 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:21.000 And specialties or treasured family recipes. Are dishes, tomatas and 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.840 papusas and yuca were store bought near holidays like Thanksgiving 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.520 our Christmas. Still, it was a one time, I felt 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.280 that as a family, we were Salvadoran together. I saw 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.840 my mother, her brothers, and my grandmother celebrating this food, 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:40.680 and with this food, I recalled Papusa's hermetically expertly fashioned 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.400 sheathed in a light caramel masada, their cores molten, brimming 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.400 with rich, smoky cheese. The papusas with loco, a zippy 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.840 green vegetable, where my grandmother's favorites, so they were mine too. 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.320 I recall fat logs of fried yucca, their interiors tender 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.600 beneath Cragley Crispin ears. As a writer, I knew that 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.240 I wanted to explore my relationship to Salvador and that 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.280 part of my identity. So towards that end I sought 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.560 out two chefs in particular, Anthony Sataghetto and Rosa Gonzalez. First, 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.600 I meant Anthony Sagaeto. He is the chef and owner 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.320 of Popoca, a salvador and inspired pop up in downtown Oakland. 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.600 I think it was pride, or perhaps admiration that I 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.240 felt swelling in my chest when I first heard what 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.960 Anthony was doing, in short, applying his experience in fine 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.520 dining to create what he calls progressive salvador and cuisine, 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.280 while still using traditional techniques, including cooking with a comal 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.600 over an open plain. At Popoca, I tasted for the 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.400 first time traditional dishes like guyo and chica, which Anthony 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.720 prepares with chicken stewed in a fermented pineapple juice with 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:51.040 turnips and prunes. For me, it was a revelation. I 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.600 had never tasted dishes that were classic and foundation but 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.240 prepared in a seasonal, ingredient driven style that I'd seen 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.880 a myriad times. The chickin was so tender it practically 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.320 cascaded from the bone. It's sonic broth was thick and 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.879 pleasantly sweet. The prunes bobbed in the liquid like small 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.280 candied islands. There were, of course papoosa's too, made with 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:17.120 a rich, self known massa. Some were stuffed with silks 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:21.160 and garlic confused geso. Others delighted in Japanese brace pork 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:25.280 shoulder like glimmering orbs, they reflected light from the fire, 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.280 and when cracked, they emitted steam like an exhortation to consume. 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.520 After talking with Anthony, I learned that his father, like 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.080 my mother, left El Salvador thirty plus years ago because 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.240 of the country civil war. But by contrast, Anthony's dad 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.399 was extremely passionate about Salvador and food, and he passed 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.439 that admiration onto Anthony. Anthony realized something he needed to 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.960 prepare and share the food he felt connected to, the 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.320 food that he says was in his blood, his roots. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.200 After talking with Anthony, I spoke with Rossa Gonzalez, who 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.080 was the co owner and chef at Los Cocos, a 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.000 restaurant in Oakland's Fruit Bale neighborhood. Los Cocos opened its 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.800 doors thirty seven years ago, before I was born. Its 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.639 walls are the shade of marmalade, and a bluebird awning 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.520 overlooks the restaurant's facade. I spoke with Rosa to the 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.399 repeated the wap of a tortilla the sound of a 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:24.679 meal's coronation at Los Corcos. Rosa told me that she 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.359 grew up in Al Salvador, where she began cooking at 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.840 age nine. She lived there until the late nineteen seventies, 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.760 when she was forced to leave. She told me after 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.640 being labeled subversive for speaking at work about a mass 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.760 killing in a nearby park. After moving to the United States, 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.840 Rosa settled in Oakland and helped her brother to open 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.160 Los Cocos because she loved to cook. To this day, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.200 her longstanding recipes are a source of pride, and despite 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.400 feeling compelled to leave, Rosa still has so much affection 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.600 for Salvador she goes back at least once each year 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.080 to purchase spices and see which she uses to make 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.800 a chatta. The week after I meet Rossa, my mother 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.320 visits me from Miami. I bring her to Rosa's restaurant, 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.479 where we order prolifically. I asked for the God, and 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.119 what I received is a brothy missive to home. The 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.080 soup is warm and honest and invigorating. The chata is 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.119 a tap dance of spice and cream. I watched my 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.960 mother clutch a papoosa and folded in half to create 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.560 a crescent moon. She stuffs her creation with ptito, a 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.919 spicy cabbage slaw. I laugh and ask if I can 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.040 have a bite. As always, she gives me what she has. 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:41.000 I copy her technique, exulting in memory for Catherine, connecting 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:45.000 to the Salvadorian diaspora and dishes like her grandmother's papoosa 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.200 coincided with her own pursuits to seek and find Salvadorian 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.040 chefs and cooks within her own community. It's within those 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.199 kitchens and on those plates that Catherine tasted and found 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:21.480 the identity of her Hispanic heritage. M Hm, Chef Ashley Shanty, 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.960 you're the chef de cuisine at Benny on Eagle, which 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:29.360 is a historically African American neighborhood in Asheville, North Carolina. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.240 Can you tell us about the restaurant at the Foundry 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:38.160 Hotel and the neighborhood and the nature of your work there. 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.360 Our restaurant is nestled in a neighborhood that was historically 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.040 referred to as the Blocks, and some older folks in 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.680 the community still referred to it as that. So this neighborhood, 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.879 past um crow Era was just a thriving African American 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:01.640 business district and it was full of black owned barbershops 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.080 and hair salons, bakeries, restaurants, all of those things. And 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.520 I mean, I even can remember myself just kind of 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.160 coming through the Green Book and landing on North Carolina 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.280 and wondering what Asheville, North Carolina would have looked like 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:20.119 at that time, and seeing all of these businesses in 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.520 the green books that were on Eagle Street right where 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.159 we are right now, which is really amazing. And you know, 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.200 we pay homage to a lot of what the block 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.879 used to be. Because of urban renewal, things look a 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.560 lot different. There are still some of those historic businesses 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:41.760 still standing. Actually one of barbershops which is still owned 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:46.000 by the same family. We pay homage to a lot 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:50.080 of the women that owned businesses. And we're chefs in 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.520 Baker's that ran kind of the block in the community 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.800 and said all of the children people in need in 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.880 the block. And we have actually four portraits of these 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.600 amazing women that we're part of the community, kind of 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:05.440 beacons of light, and still are. Two of the four 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.439 women in the portraits are still living, and that is 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.760 Miss Mary Joe Johnson and Miss hann Shabaz, who actually 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.679 is very much so a part of um this project 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:19.240 and involved in what we do. We kind of call 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:23.680 her our culinary advisor. She makes our corn bread and 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.240 fish cakes and those are some of the things that 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.240 people have known her for for still long in the community. 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.440 And I mean they come into our restaurant knowing that 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.760 they're going to get the same fish cake today that 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.960 Hannan made, you know, the same way thirty years ago, 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:41.000 so it was really cool. And we try to do 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.480 our best serve the some of the marginal lives of 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:49.160 the community, underserved and underemployed, and yeah, we we just 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.240 try and make good food and not take ourselves too seriously, 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:55.600 but also make sure that we're doing our parts by 0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:00.680 by uplifting the community that we're in. The food has 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:05.920 been described as Appalachian cuisine, which presumably blends all kinds 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:11.680 of influences Black folks, colonial influences, Native people. I want 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:13.159 to make sure that I'm not putting you in a 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.800 box by calling your food that. But within that historical 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.320 and regional context, can you explain to us what Appalachian 0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:27.080 cuisine is Appalachia where we are specifically in western North Carolina, 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:31.800 there's what people call mountains and culture. Um, you know, 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.600 there's just a different way of preserving a lot of 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:39.760 legos being what people would consider peasant food. There's a 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.359 lot of game meats, so I mean regionally, food is 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:49.399 very familiar to me. My maternal great grandmother, she was 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:52.520 from Dan River, Virginia, so that is the western part 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:56.880 of Virginia. I mean she was Appalachian through and through 0:23:57.000 --> 0:23:58.639 just you know who she was as a woman. But 0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:00.960 I don't think that as a black woman, she considered 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.399 herself to be an Appalachian person, but she did consider 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:09.119 herself to be Southern, and so I think the food 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:12.040 that my mother cooked is reminiscent of that. And I 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.280 don't know that I consider what it was untill this 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:18.359 project and I started to explore my own identity through 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:23.280 what I'm doing. It is difficult for me to describe 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:27.280 my food outside of just calling it what it is 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.840 regionally and just saying that it does just kind of 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.359 describe who I am. I mean, it has nuances of 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:37.360 Um and Guici cuisine that that is part of the 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:41.800 paternal side of my family. My paternal great great grand 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.840 parents are from Ghana, so I mean there's some West 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.639 African influences there as well. I love Um Japanese culture, 0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:51.240 so I mean, I'm really inspired by that cuisine. So 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:54.720 they're kind of nuances of a lot of different places regionally, 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:58.879 and I think that that might be unexpected for some people, 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:03.120 which I don't know that. I think that's kind of cool. Definitely, 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.520 I love that too, and especially as an African American 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:09.400 woman who was in the kitchen. I'm seeing you get 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:12.600 to experience the full breadth of the things that inspire 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:17.479 you without limitation. And I'm sure that it's something that 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:20.960 you're pushing against every day, but the fact that you're 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:25.080 in a position to push at all brings me great joy. 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:27.679 Can you tell me about the point in which you 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:33.000 started to more clearly see and define yourself in your 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:37.119 own food? What is it that you begin to see? 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:41.320 For so long, I've worked in establishments that have been 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:44.280 amazing and I've learned so much from but that I've 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.919 cooked food that never felt like my own. That is 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.600 why I feel like what I'm doing right now is 0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:53.600 so meaningful and it's so important to me. It's because 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:58.320 I do finally feel like I'm finding that identity through 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:03.000 what I'm cooking, and it's something that I'm constantly acting myself. 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:06.320 How does this relate to who I am? So that's 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.960