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Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations

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Speaker 1: about suicide that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward

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Speaker 1: to the end of this episode to find out where

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Speaker 1: help is available.

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Speaker 2: I'm confident that our team knows more about the murder

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Speaker 2: of Anastasia Whipples Fugen and the prosecution of Byron Case

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Speaker 2: than anybody, which sometimes scares me to think how quickly

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Speaker 2: Byron was convicted and how little work anybody did before

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Speaker 2: they sent them to prison forever.

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Speaker 1: Are the other people who also know this case fine

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Speaker 1: with leaving it done and decided, or will their minds

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Speaker 1: change after hearing what Byron's legal team says they've uncovered.

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Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer, Episode ten,

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Speaker 1: Please accept my prayers. In the spring of twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: Byron Case's legal team reaches out to doctor Thomas Young,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy just hours after

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Speaker 1: Anastasia's body was discovered in Lincoln Cemetery. Here's Nicole Gordon,

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Speaker 1: one of Byron's attorneys.

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Speaker 3: We wrote to doctor Young. We talked to him briefly

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Speaker 3: and planned to meet him. We sent him the investigation

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Speaker 3: that we'd done so far or that part in the process,

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Speaker 3: and scheduled meeting with him. He comes into the room,

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Speaker 3: he sits down, and we said, well, what did you think?

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Speaker 3: And the first thing that doctor Young said that everything

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Speaker 3: that Kelly said after two thousand was a lie. Her

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Speaker 3: story cannot be true. And he was insisted on that.

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Speaker 3: I was the first thing out of his mouth about

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Speaker 3: this case.

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Speaker 1: On May tenth, twenty twenty three, doctor Young writes an affidavit.

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Speaker 1: We hired an actor to read some of what he wrote.

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Speaker 4: I was neither deposed nor called as a witness to

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Speaker 4: trial regarding my autopsy of Miss Whippleshugen. Doctor Chase Blanchard

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Speaker 4: testified in deposition and a trial based on my autopsy report.

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Speaker 4: Doctor blanche was not present at the autopsy of Miss Whippleshugen.

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Speaker 1: Here's Byron's attorney, Sean O'Brien.

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Speaker 5: Doctor Chase Blanchard had just graduated from medical school, did

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Speaker 5: not have much experience as a medical examiner, but they

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Speaker 5: substituted her for doctor Young. They did that before depositions

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Speaker 5: were taken, and they said to judge Otwell, well, doctor

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Speaker 5: Young's out of town. We have to use doctor Blanchard. Well,

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Speaker 5: he would not have been out of town for that

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Speaker 5: whole period of pre trial discovery and the trial, and

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Speaker 5: in fact he doesn't remember it when we talked to

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Speaker 5: him being out of town or unavailable. But they used

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Speaker 5: doctor Blanchard to testify in lieu of doctor Young, and

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Speaker 5: doctor Blanchard's testimony generally was supportive of what Kelly moffittt said.

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Speaker 1: Back to Dr Young's affidavit.

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Speaker 4: Based on my review and my direct observation at autopsy,

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Speaker 4: it's my opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty

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Speaker 4: that Miss Moffatt's story and implicating Byron Case is not

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Speaker 4: consistent with the physical evidence. Ms Moffatt claimed that Byron

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Speaker 4: Case shot Miss Whipplesfugen from five feet away.

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Speaker 6: This is impossible.

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Speaker 4: Any assertion that the contact gunshot wound in Miss Whipplesfugen's

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Speaker 4: face is a wound from five feet away is false

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Speaker 4: and not consistent with the evidence. Abes her of the

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Speaker 4: mis Wibbleshugen had a contact gunshot wound to the tip

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Speaker 4: of her nose. This means that the gun used on

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Speaker 4: Miss Whibbleshugen was touching her nose when it was fired.

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Speaker 4: I know this to be true because, in addition to

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Speaker 4: whether wound characteristics typical for a contact gunshot wound I

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Speaker 4: found through a dissecting microscope, gunpowder particles and soft tissues

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Speaker 4: in the wound track beneath her skin. Ms Moffett also

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Speaker 4: described Miss Whipplefhugen's body being blown backwards by the gunshot.

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Speaker 4: This is also not possible. A gunshot would not push

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Speaker 4: her body backward, but instead rapidly perforate her head. Without

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Speaker 4: such a push, a person being blown backwards by a

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Speaker 4: gunshot is entirely Hollywood style fiction. The physical evidence also

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Speaker 4: does not support a claim that a shotgun was used

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Speaker 4: to kill Miss Wibbleshugen. The bullet fragment I recovered also

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Speaker 4: was not consistent with a shotgun.

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Speaker 1: Slug, which is different than what doctor Chase Blanchard said

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Speaker 1: on the stand. She testified that the gun used could

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Speaker 1: have been a rifle, a high powered handgun, or a shotgun,

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Speaker 1: but she said if it were a shotgun, quote, there

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Speaker 1: was a fragment found in the back, and that's consistent

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Speaker 1: with a shotgun slug. Doctor Blanchard is referring to the

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Speaker 1: bullet fragment found matted in Anastasia's hair. Here's Sean again.

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Speaker 5: And and that's the same ammunition that Justin used to

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Speaker 5: kill himself with. And so they actually argued to the jury,

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Speaker 5: wouldn't that be a coincidence? But doctor Young said this

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Speaker 5: was not a deer slug. I mean, and frankly, I've

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Speaker 5: done deer slug homicides. I could have told you this

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Speaker 5: was not a deer slug.

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Speaker 1: Well, you just look at the crime scene. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the photos from the scenes, justin what happened to Justin.

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Speaker 5: With half his head is missing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's versus Anastasia. I mean, they don't even

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything about ballistics or any I can

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Speaker 1: tell just as a layman that these are not the

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Speaker 1: same type of thing.

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Speaker 5: It's not at all the same. I mean, it's an

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Speaker 5: unrifled chunk a lead that comes out at high velocity

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Speaker 5: that's typically blunt, and it just you know, those, frankly,

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Speaker 5: are the worst crime scene photographs I've ever had the view.

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Speaker 1: I agree, I think it's one of the worst things

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it is Justin's Yeah, this was not that.

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Speaker 5: This was not that.

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Speaker 1: So doctor Young concludes his affidavit by saying, had he

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Speaker 1: been called to testify at Byron case's trial, he would

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Speaker 1: have answered consistently with his affidavit. Among the many questions

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Speaker 1: I sent to Prosecutor Teresa Craon was why didn't they

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Speaker 1: call doctor Young to testify? I also asked what she

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Speaker 1: thought about doctor Young's APFA David Remember. Her office issued

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Speaker 1: the following statement quote, the office has decided that until

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Speaker 1: all litigation is complete on this matter, it isn't a

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Speaker 1: pro for a potential witness I e. Teresa to participate.

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Speaker 1: But there might be a small hiccup when it comes

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Speaker 1: to doctor Young. To Byron's current legal team, and in

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Speaker 1: his affidavit, doctor Young says the way Kelly said Byron

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Speaker 1: shot Anastasia is not consistent with the physical evidence. But

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Speaker 1: doctor Young is interviewed for the twenty sixteen MTV show

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Speaker 1: Unlocking the Truth, which looked at cases of possible wrongful convictions,

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Speaker 1: Byron's being one of them. There, doctor Young says something

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Speaker 1: very different, Kevin Maffin is.

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Speaker 6: A witness the King.

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Speaker 7: Later on everything she says fitstiavis.

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Speaker 1: Unlocking the Truth is hosted by Ryan Ferguson, who was

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted of a two thousand and one murder in Columbia, Missouri.

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Speaker 1: He spent almost ten years in prison for the crime.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Ryan Ferguson was convicted largely based on

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Speaker 1: false eyewitness testimony. Okay, back to doctor Young talking with

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Speaker 1: Ryan about Kelly.

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Speaker 6: But there's a witness account in this case. She describes

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Speaker 6: a rifle.

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Speaker 7: Witnesses have been highly suspect in many cases.

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Speaker 6: You don't pass judgment.

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Speaker 7: On a witness accountanteam or what they have to say

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Speaker 7: and compare.

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Speaker 6: It to the evidence. It's called thinking dirty.

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Speaker 7: Thinking dirty doesn't work no matter what kind of character

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Speaker 7: this person is.

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Speaker 6: You put that all aside and you look at the

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Speaker 6: content of what they're saying.

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Speaker 7: Witnesses observe things. The fact that there's something that is

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Speaker 7: observed makes it a fact.

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Speaker 6: Could they be lying? Maybe you test.

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Speaker 7: It with the evidence, but that's still a fact. It's

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Speaker 7: like a jigsaw puzzle. You know, you got a piece,

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Speaker 7: you got a context here, you put the piece in.

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Speaker 6: It'll fit or it doesn't fit.

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Speaker 1: As you can imagine, doctor Jung's assessment of eyewitness testimony

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Speaker 1: doesn't sit too well with Ryan. Doctor Young is then

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Speaker 1: asked what in Kelly's testimony is consistent with his medical findings.

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Speaker 7: She mentions that as she's sitting in the backseat, Byron

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Speaker 7: gets the keys out of.

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Speaker 6: The ignition, opens the trunk, pulls out.

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Speaker 7: She says, I think it's a Honting rival and he

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Speaker 7: puts the thing in her face.

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Speaker 6: And fires it. All of that fips.

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Speaker 1: Does that fit the physical evidence? Again? Kelly said Byron

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Speaker 1: was five feet or more away from Anastasia when he

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Speaker 1: shot her, So how does that fit his medical findings

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Speaker 1: of it being a contact wound? Doctor Young continues.

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Speaker 7: Past events are so complex. If somebody basically gives a

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Speaker 7: past event account and everything lines up with evidence, that's remarkable.

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Speaker 6: Somebody to just simply make.

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Speaker 7: Up a witness account, align account and have everything line

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Speaker 7: up with the evidence like that. They have to be

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Speaker 7: aligned TVs to do that.

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Speaker 1: I asked Byron's investigator, Quinn O'Brien what she makes of

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Speaker 1: doctor Young's MTV interview and how it's in complete contradiction

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Speaker 1: to his affidavit seven years later.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it is, And I think what happened was that

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Speaker 8: the MTV people didn't give him the same things that

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Speaker 8: we gave him. I think MTV gave him his old report,

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Speaker 8: and based on his old report, he discussed these things.

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Speaker 8: But we gave him Kelley mo off its transcript and deposition,

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Speaker 8: We gave him the prosecutor's closing, and we gave him

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Speaker 8: a few other documents. And with more information and with

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Speaker 8: more context, doctor Young was able to come to a

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Speaker 8: better decision. More information means a more accurate assessment. Right,

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Speaker 8: Your expert is only as good as what you give them.

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Speaker 8: I don't think he had the information that he needed

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Speaker 8: to make a good assessment, because yeah, we saw that

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Speaker 8: MTV thing too and went, huh, what's that about? You know,

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Speaker 8: then when we gave him his report, we also gave

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Speaker 8: him these other things, and he said, in context, here's

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Speaker 8: how I came to my decision, Like I looked at

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Speaker 8: Kelley Moffitt's testimony, and I looked at like, is what

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Speaker 8: Kelly's saying? Is that true? According to what the evidence

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Speaker 8: is showing me. He said that the gun was pressed

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Speaker 8: up against the tip of Anastasia's nose. It could not

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Speaker 8: have even been an inch away. It could not at

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Speaker 8: all have been like, you know, a foot away or

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Speaker 8: five feet away. It was.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Young declined my invitation to be interviewed. In episode eight,

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Speaker 1: I shared that I emailed doctor Young asking why he

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Speaker 1: wrote in his autopsy report that Anastagia's corneas were clear,

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Speaker 1: hoping to learn more about her time of death. He

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Speaker 1: never responded to that question. I email him again to

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Speaker 1: see what he has to say about his MTV interview

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Speaker 1: and how it's very different from his twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: out of David, but he hasn't responded. So Byron's legal

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Speaker 1: team feels good having doctor Young's affidavit in their pocket

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Speaker 1: and they are just getting started. Turns out, Horton Lance,

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Speaker 1: Byron's trial attorney, has a lot to say too, again

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Speaker 1: not to me. Although he initially said he might agree

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Speaker 1: to an interview. He asked me to call him back

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Speaker 1: in a few weeks, which I did several times. He

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Speaker 1: never returned to any of my calls, but in his

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Speaker 1: July third, twenty twenty three affidavit he doesn't hold back.

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Speaker 1: We hired another actor to read from Horton Lance's affidavit.

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Speaker 1: Here are some of what he said.

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Speaker 9: When I was assigned to Byron's case, very little work

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Speaker 9: had been done due to the high case load of

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Speaker 9: the public defender. Byron wanted a speedy trial because he

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Speaker 9: was certain of his innocence and was held in pre

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Speaker 9: trialed attention in the Jackson County Jail. These circumstances gave

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Speaker 9: me less than six months to prepare for trial.

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Speaker 1: Horton goes on to talk about his process for receiving discovery,

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Speaker 1: how he maintained his files, and then he says this.

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Speaker 9: I remember reading the state's response to my request for

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Speaker 9: the criminal records of the state's witnesses. Their April third,

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Speaker 9: two thousand and two response was that no witnesses had

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Speaker 9: a felony or misdemeanor conviction. I am certain that I

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Speaker 9: was never informed of Kelley Moffatt's criminal conviction. I have

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Speaker 9: since reviewed the documents related to Ms Moffatt's April third,

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Speaker 9: two thousand and one conviction of a Class A misdemeanor

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Speaker 9: in Cooper County, Missouri. I was completely unaware that Miss

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Speaker 9: Moffatt was on probation at the time of her March eighth,

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Speaker 9: two thousand and two deposition. I would have used Miss

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Speaker 9: Moffatt's criminal record and contacts with law enforcement to impeach

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Speaker 9: her had the state disclosed that information, especially given the

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Speaker 9: timing of her arrest and prosecution to when she gave

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Speaker 9: her September two thousand statements implicating Byron. In her deposition,

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Speaker 9: Kelly stated that she had never pled guilty to or

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Speaker 9: been convicted of a felony or misdemeanor in state or

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Speaker 9: federal court. The deposition was under oath, which means that

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Speaker 9: miss Moffatt committed perjury by denying she pled guilty to

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Speaker 9: a misdemeanor in state court. Had I known Kelly Moffatt

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Speaker 9: lied under oath, I would have moved to exclude her

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Speaker 9: testimony entirely, and if that was not successful, I would

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Speaker 9: have cross examined her about having lied under oath. Kelly

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Speaker 9: Moffatt was essential to the state's case. A first set

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Speaker 9: of interviews by police cleared Byron of any involvement in

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Speaker 9: Anastasia's death and corroborated Byron's persistent assertions of innocence. Then

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Speaker 9: she changed her story to claim that she saw Justin

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Speaker 9: Bruten kill Anastasia, until she changed her story again to

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Speaker 9: accuse Byron. There was no evidence whatsoever implicating Byron in

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Speaker 9: Anastasia's death. Without her testimony, the state could not have

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Speaker 9: gotten the case to a jury.

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Speaker 1: He goes on to say.

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Speaker 9: Whether Anastasia got out of Justin's car that night was

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00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 9: a significant point of contention at trial. If she got

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Speaker 9: out of the car at Truman Rode and I four

249
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Speaker 9: thirty five, then Byron is innocent and he would have

250
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Speaker 9: a corroborated alibi. An independent witness, mechanic Don Rand, saw

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Speaker 9: Anastasia get out of the car and walk across the

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Speaker 9: parking lot of the service station where he worked on

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Speaker 9: Truman Road near I four thirty five. Despite this, the

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Speaker 9: prosecutors argued that Byron lied about Anastasia getting out of

255
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Speaker 9: the car. Kelly Moffatt's testimony was the only evidence supporting

256
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Speaker 9: that argument. Accepting Miss Moffatt's story and ignoring Rand's testimony,

257
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,600
Speaker 9: the state argued that Byron pressured Miss Moffatt into giving

258
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Speaker 9: the police a false story.

259
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Speaker 1: Horton Lands then goes on to write about meeting Byron's attorney,

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Speaker 1: Brian Russell and being shown some emails Anastasia's dad sent

261
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Speaker 1: to Sergeant Kilgore. Horton paraphrases the emails.

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Speaker 9: When meeting with mister Russell at his office, I was

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Speaker 9: shown several emails between Robert Whitbulls Fugen and the lead investigator,

264
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Speaker 9: Sergeant Gary Kilgore. This was the first time I'd seen

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Speaker 9: these emails, and several of them contained evidence that Anastasia

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Speaker 9: Whitbulls Fugen returned home after being picked up at Dairy Queen,

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Speaker 9: but before her death. Specifically, I never saw a January second,

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Speaker 9: nineteen ninety eight email about Anastasia's genes being found in

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Speaker 9: a dryer or Anastasia's underwear being found soaking in a

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Speaker 9: sink in her home. I also do not recall seeing

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Speaker 9: a January eleventh, nineteen ninety eight email about Anastasia's father

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Speaker 9: finding her purse at the family home, which included a

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Speaker 9: photograph of the purse. I also do not recall seeing

274
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Speaker 9: a January twenty two, nineteen ninety eight email that mentioned

275
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 9: witnesses seeing a young woman use a payphone. Because I

276
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Speaker 9: did not have these emails, it never occurred to me

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00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 9: that Anastasia went home before she died. If evidence demonstrating

278
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 9: that Anastasia went home before she died had been produced

279
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,240
Speaker 9: to me, I would have used that to effectively cross

280
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Speaker 9: examine Kelly Moffatt and corroborate Byron's innocent account of what

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Speaker 9: he did that evening. It is now my understanding that

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00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,639
Speaker 9: mister Whitbull's Fugen and Sergeant Kilgore exchanged over one one

283
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,680
Speaker 9: hundred and forty emails related to the investigation. Less than

284
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,439
Speaker 9: ten of those emails were produced to me by the

285
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,560
Speaker 9: Jackson County Prosecutor before trial, none of which indicated that

286
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 9: Anastasia returned home. If I had those emails and the

287
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,919
Speaker 9: photograph of the purse that mister whitbulls Fugen sent to

288
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,719
Speaker 9: the Jackson County Sheriff, I would have used them to

289
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 9: examine Don Wright, the Dairy Queen employee who saw Anastasia

290
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 9: in the hours before her death. Miss Wright provided Anastasia

291
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,560
Speaker 9: with an emergency tampon when Anastasia's period began in the

292
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Speaker 9: Dairy Queen. I would have asked miss Wright if it

293
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,920
Speaker 9: was likely that Anastasia had soiled her underwear and jeans

294
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Speaker 9: when she began her period at Dairy Queen. I would

295
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 9: have asked her to confirm that she told investigators that

296
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,879
Speaker 9: Anastasia was wearing light colored blue jeans and sandals with

297
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 9: socks at the Dairy Queen. I also would have asked

298
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,399
Speaker 9: miss Wright if the purse in the photograph that mister

299
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 9: Whitbull's Fugen email to Detective Kilgore resembled the purse she

300
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 9: saw Anastasia carrying. I would have used the emails to

301
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 9: show that the clothing and purse were in the Whitbulls

302
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 9: Fugen home, which meant that Anastasia returned there after leaving

303
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 9: Dairy Queen and before her death. When Anastasia's clothes were

304
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 9: examined by Robert Frank Booth of the KCPD Crime Lab,

305
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,879
Speaker 9: he reported the black jeans and underwear had no blood

306
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 9: on them and that Anastasia had a clean sanitary pad,

307
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 9: not a tampon. I could have used this to cross

308
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 9: examine Miss Moffatt to further highlight that Anastasia went home,

309
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,880
Speaker 9: disproving Miss Moffatt's story. I would have reconsidered my decision

310
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 9: not to call Sergeant Kilgore and or mister Whitbulls Fugen,

311
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 9: so that I could prove that Anastasia did in fact

312
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 9: get out of the car, call someone on the telephone,

313
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 9: and go home after leaving the Dairy Queen and Mount

314
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 9: Washington Cemetery. Mister Russell also played for me a recorded

315
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 9: phone interview of mister Whitball's Fugen taken on January twenty second,

316
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 9: nineteen ninety eight, by Sergeant Kilgore. This recording was not

317
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 9: produced to me before trial. In that recording, mister Whitball's

318
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 9: fugen states that he spoke with a father daughter couple

319
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 9: at a Phillips sixty six gas station on Truman Road

320
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,959
Speaker 9: and I four thirty five that saw a girl matching

321
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 9: Anastasia's description used the nearby payphones just before dark. The

322
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,679
Speaker 9: corresponding report of his interaction was produced to me before trial,

323
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,919
Speaker 9: attached as Exhibit F. However, that report does not state

324
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 9: the interview was recorded, nor does it include mister Whitball's

325
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 9: fugen's statement regarding these two additional witnesses. Had I known

326
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 9: that two others claimed to have seen Anastasia use the payphones,

327
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 9: I would have attempted to find them to corroborate that

328
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 9: Anastasia got out of the car as don Rand justin Bruton,

329
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 9: Ms Moffatt and Byron said, I recalled Teresa Crayon telling

330
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Speaker 9: me via telephone that she would not be calling Sergeant

331
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,159
Speaker 9: Kilgore a trial. Miss Crayon said that the relationship between

332
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 9: Sergeant Kilgore and one of the families involved, either of

333
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 9: the Moffitts or the Whitball's fugens, had grown contentious. Miss

334
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 9: Crayon asked if I'd like her to make Sergeant Kilgore

335
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 9: available to me or subpoena's service or testimony. I declined.

336
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 9: I believed at the time that Miss Crayon was doing

337
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 9: me a favor by not calling the lead investigator to

338
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 9: testify in this case. I was also one aware of

339
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 9: the full extent of communications between mister Whitball's FUGEN and

340
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 9: state's witness Kelly Moffatt. If I had known mister Whitball's

341
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 9: fugen's level of involvement in the investigation into his daughter's death,

342
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,959
Speaker 9: I would have considered calling him as a witness for

343
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 9: the defense. Knowing what I know now about mister Whitball's

344
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 9: fugen's involvement in the investigation, his contact with other testifying witnesses,

345
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 9: and his frequent contact with Sergeant Kilgore, I would have

346
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 9: accepted Miss Crayon's offer to help place Sergeant Kilgore under

347
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,919
Speaker 9: subpoena to testify for the defense. At a minimum, I

348
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 9: would have deposed him. Miss Crayon also told me that

349
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Speaker 9: doctor Thomas Young, the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy

350
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 9: of Anastasia, was not available for trial, and the doctor

351
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 9: Chase Blanchard, who was not present for the autopsy would

352
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 9: be testifying in doctor Young's place. I took Miss Grayon

353
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 9: at her word and did not inquire with doctor Young

354
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 9: about his availability. I have reviewed his affidavit of May tenth,

355
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 9: twenty twenty three, where he opines that Kelly Moffatt's description

356
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 9: of the shooting is wholly inconsistent with his autopsy findings.

357
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 9: It would have been important for the jury to know

358
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 9: that doctor Young's autopsy definitively established that the barrel of

359
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 9: the gun that caused Anastasia's death was physically touching her

360
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 9: nose when it fired, and that it is impossible that

361
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 9: the gun was fired from three to five feet away,

362
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 9: as Miss Moffatt testified. Had I known that would have

363
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 9: been his testimony, I would not have consented to doctor

364
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 9: Blanchard testifying in his place and would have called for

365
00:22:53,880 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 9: doctor Young in Byron's defense. I remember Byron's trial steadfastly

366
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 9: maintained his innocence throughout and following the trial proceedings. I

367
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 9: remember Kelly Moffittt's testimony a trial. I recall her being emotionless,

368
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 9: almost bored when answering questions the prosecutor's assertion in closing

369
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 9: that Ms. Moffatt was emotional during her testimony rings false

370
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 9: to me.

371
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: Then Horton talks about the June fifth should or shouldn't

372
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: record a call between Kelly and Byron.

373
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 9: I remember the state using a transcript to a company

374
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 9: the recordings of two phone calls between Kelly Moffatt and Byron.

375
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 9: I do not recall where the transcripts came from. I assumed,

376
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 9: without scrutiny that the transcripts were accurate. The recorded conversations

377
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 9: were difficult to hear at times, and I believe we

378
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 9: relied heavily on the transcripts to determine what was said

379
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 9: on the tapes. I have since listened to the clear

380
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 9: audio of the June five, two thousand recording, and it

381
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 9: is apparent that Byron tells Miss Moffatt quote we should

382
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 9: talk about this, not quote we shouldn't talk about this

383
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 9: as the state and transcript represented as strengthens the argument

384
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 9: I made to the judge that the transcript, the recording,

385
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 9: and the conversation should not have been admitted because the

386
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 9: foundation for a tacit admission is not satisfied. In my opinion,

387
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 9: the false transcript was damning to the defense because the

388
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 9: prosecutor used it as a tacit admission and also suggested

389
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 9: in closing argument that Byron steered the conversation away from

390
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 9: the subject by talking about Loose Park. In fact, Byron

391
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 9: was giving Kelly Moffatt directions of where to meet to

392
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 9: discuss the matter. Further, I felt at the time that

393
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 9: the state could not lay a proper foundation for the

394
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 9: statement as a tacit admission, and I argued accordingly. The

395
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 9: better audio makes this argument even stronger.

396
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: I don't know why Horton Lance doesn't want to talk

397
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: with me. Maybe it's as symbol as he's just busy,

398
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: he's an overworked public defender with not a moment to spare,

399
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: or maybe he doesn't want to answer questions about what

400
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: he did or didn't do while representing Byron, because it

401
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: seems even with everything that he wrote in his affidavit,

402
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: there may also have been some missteps or missed opportunities

403
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: on his part that he'd rather leave in the past.

404
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 1: As Byron's legal team is racking up affid davits, they

405
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: decide to approach Judge Charles Atwell, the judge who presided

406
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: over Byron's trial. Here's Byron's attorney Sean O'Brien.

407
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 5: I could say I met Judge at Well forty six

408
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 5: years ago. He's been a prosecutor, he's been a defense lawyer,

409
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 5: he's been an assistant US attorney, and he went back

410
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 5: to being a defense lawyer, and that's what he was

411
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 5: when he became a trial judge. Loads of integrity, a

412
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 5: good trial judge, good lawyer, highly ethical.

413
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: And Byron's lawyers play the June fifth should or shouldn't tapes,

414
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: the lesser quality one and the seemingly clearer one to

415
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: see what Judge Atwell hears and what he remembers from trial.

416
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.

417
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: And we could tell by the trial transcript or pre

418
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: trial transcript he put a lot of thought and effort

419
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: into deciding whether to admit these tapes. And he's a

420
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: good judge both by reputation and you know, you can

421
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 2: tell he has a conscience. But yeah, so once we

422
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: kind of were confident that there is a should and

423
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: shouldn't and the transcript was an error, and we had

424
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: multiple copies of the tape, we wanted to see if

425
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 2: Judge at Well could remember which version of the tape

426
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 2: we had sounded more like what was at trial, and

427
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: so we played it for him. Had a bluetooth speaker

428
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: that was higher quality, and we played the low quality

429
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: tape for him first, and he asked if he could

430
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 2: read the transcript while he was leader while he was listening,

431
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: and I respectfully, your honor, and he was he's a

432
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: retired judge now he does mediations and things like that,

433
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: so there's no conflict with the pro he's a witness

434
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: at this point. So we played it for him. He

435
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: asked if he could see the transcript, and I was like, judge,

436
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: just if you could just listen to it for now

437
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: and then and then you can have a transcript after

438
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: you've listened to him. He's like, okay, that's fine, and

439
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: so he listens to the first version and then he

440
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 2: was like, I mean, that sounds kind of like what

441
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: it was at trial. And then he listens to the

442
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: second one and he's like, yeah, no, the first, the

443
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: lower quality one is what I remember it sounding like

444
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: a trial. And then he listened to the second tape

445
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: and he's listening to it and I'll never forget he's

446
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: listening to the higher quality version and he's he's, you know,

447
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: leaning his ear in and he goes, well, he says,

448
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: we should talk about this. Well, what did the transcript say?

449
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: And I handed him the transcript and he looked at

450
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: it and his face just sunk and he just said,

451
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: this is that is troubling. And he doesn't know, just

452
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: like we don't know. We don't know how this came about.

453
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 2: We just know that it did can't come about, and

454
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: that Byron. That was half of the evidence they used

455
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: to convict Byron.

456
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: On July eighteenth, twenty twenty three, Judge Charles Atwell writes

457
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: an afpid David about the June fifth tapes and more.

458
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: We hired another actor to read from Judge Atwell's apphad David.

459
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: Here are some of what he wrote.

460
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 10: One of the major pre trial issues in this case

461
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 10: was the admissibility of a June five tooth thousand and

462
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 10: one phone call between the state's sole witness, Kelly Moffatt,

463
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 10: and the defendant, mister Case. Mister Horton Lance represented mister

464
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 10: Case and objected to the admission of the tape into

465
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 10: evidence on the basis that the tape was not relevant

466
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 10: and was not sufficiently accurate and reliable. For my consideration

467
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 10: of this issue. The State provided me with a copy

468
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 10: of a tape of the June five telephone call and

469
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 10: a purported transcript of the tape. The state represented at

470
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 10: the April nineteen, two thousand and two pre trial hearing

471
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 10: that many parts of the tape were inaudible and the

472
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 10: transcripts don't try to put forth anything that you can't

473
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 10: hear on the tapes. With the aid of the transcript,

474
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 10: at the April twenty five, two thousand and two pre

475
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 10: trial conference, I noted Ms Moffatt's voice is very clear

476
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 10: and distinct. Mister Case's voice is not as clear, is

477
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 10: much softer and harder to understand. Although I was able

478
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 10: with the aid of the transcript, I was able to

479
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 10: understand what he said. I believed the transcript was accurate.

480
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 10: The transcript represents that mister Case twice said to Miss Moffatt,

481
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 10: we shouldn't talk about this. I ruled that the tape

482
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 10: would be admissible as a tacit admission, assuming a proper

483
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 10: foundation could be laid, including a chain of custody, and

484
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 10: that the tape was not altered. The State said that

485
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 10: the tape I listened to had been altered by a

486
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 10: company in Springfield, Missouri, in an attempt to make it

487
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 10: easier to hear the state represented to me that the

488
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 10: alteration really didn't help, and we were left with the

489
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 10: same thing we had before. They weren't able to enhance them.

490
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 10: At trial, mister Lance renewed his objections to the quality

491
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 10: of the tape and to its relevance, that the conversation

492
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 10: did not reflect a tacit admission by mister Case. I

493
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 10: overruled those objections. The jury was provided with the transcript

494
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 10: to read as I listened to the tape. The trial

495
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 10: transcript reflects that I orally instructed the jury as follows.

496
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 10: The sole purpose for these transcripts is to aid you

497
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 10: in listening to what's on the tape. The transcripts themselves

498
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 10: are not evidence. They're only given to you to aid

499
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 10: you to listen to what is on the tape. The

500
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 10: tape is the evidence. If you feel that there is

501
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 10: a conflict between the tape and the transcript, you should

502
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 10: rely upon your memory of what the tape said. During deliberations,

503
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 10: the very first thing the jury asked for was the

504
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 10: June five tape and the transcript. Mister Lance objected again repeatedly.

505
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 10: I allowed the jury to listen to the tape with

506
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 10: the transcripts again. During deliberations, I was asked by mister

507
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 10: Case's current counsel, Brian Russell and Sean O'Brien to listen

508
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 10: to two digital versions of the June five, two thousand

509
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 10: and one tape without the aid of a transcript. The

510
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 10: first version was very hard to hear and sounded very

511
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 10: much like what I remember the tape sounding like at

512
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 10: mister Case's trial. The second version of the tape was

513
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 10: somewhat clearer. I listened to that recording without the aid

514
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 10: of a transcript, and while mister Case's voice was still soft,

515
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 10: I was able to understand him. In response to Miss

516
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 10: Moffatt's question asking why mister Case killed Anastasia Whitbol's fugen,

517
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 10: mister Case clearly answers twice we should talk about this.

518
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 10: Having listened to both tapes, it is apparent to me

519
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 10: the transcript provided by the state as it relates to

520
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 10: what mister k said was not a fair and accurate

521
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 10: representation of the June five, two thousand and one phone call.

522
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 10: I recognize that an inaccurate transcript creates the risk that

523
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 10: the jury could be unfairly influenced I do not know

524
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 10: whether the tape presented to me a trial was of

525
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 10: lesser quality, or whether the device used to play the

526
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 10: tape created distortion. If a clearer version of the June

527
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,239
Speaker 10: five recording was available at trial, that version was not

528
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 10: presented to me. If I had known a trial that

529
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 10: the audio could be played more clearly, I would have

530
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 10: insisted on listening to the tape in the clearest version

531
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 10: possible before making any ruling.

532
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: Judge Outwell goes on to write about learning of Kelly's

533
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: previous conviction.

534
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 10: Mister Case's current council also showed me the state's discovery

535
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 10: responses from April three to two thousand and two, where

536
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 10: the state claims to have no information at this time

537
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 10: with respect to any felony or misdemeanor convictions which the

538
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 10: state's witnesses may have. Mister Case's current council also showed

539
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 10: me that miss Moffatt was in fact convicted of a

540
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 10: Class A misdemeanor in Cooper County, Missouri, on April three,

541
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 10: two thousand and one, where she was sentenced to forty

542
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 10: eight hours of shock time and two years probation, with

543
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 10: the suspended execution of thirty days in jail. Mister Case's

544
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 10: current council also showed me Kelly Moffatt's deposition transcript from

545
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 10: March eight, two thousand and two, where she denied having

546
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 10: any falony or misdemeanor convictions in state or federal court,

547
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 10: or having any arrests. Mister Case had the right to

548
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 10: impeach Miss Moffatt with this prior conviction. The defense also

549
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 10: could have used Miss Moffatt's active probation status as evidence

550
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 10: of interest, bias, or prejudice in favor of the state.

551
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 10: In the affidavit, mister Land said that his motion for

552
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 10: the criminal records of the state's witnesses was answered with

553
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 10: the assertion that no such records exist.

554
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: Judge Otwell goes on to say that mister Case's conviction

555
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: was affirmed by the Missouri Court of Appeals. When he

556
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: read the two thousand and four opinion, he said he

557
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: believed there were important constitutional issues that were raised that

558
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: he had not considered at the time of the admission

559
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: of the tape recording at TRU. These issues were considered

560
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: by the appellate court and did not result in a reversal.

561
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: I write a Judge at Well, hoping he would speak

562
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: with me, but he never responds interestingly enough. Evelyn Case,

563
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: Byron's mother says back in twenty twenty two, Judge Atwell

564
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: wrote her here she is talking about that.

565
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 11: I would run into the judge. He doesn't live far

566
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 11: from here. Actually, I would run into him at the

567
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 11: grocery store and I corner him with my cart and

568
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 11: I said, Judge, yet, well, cap, you got a minute.

569
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 11: I was always polite, and I just told him, I says,

570
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 11: Byron didn't do this, and.

571
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: He didn't really know what to say.

572
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 7: But that was.

573
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 11: The start of me. I wasn't hounding him, No, I wasn't.

574
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 11: I was very, very, very polite. But I would send

575
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 11: him things like the book or the flyers, just to

576
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 11: show him that we are busy with this. And then

577
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 11: one day he sent me a letter, the judge, and

578
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 11: I was so elated.

579
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: What does it say right here? You want to read

580
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: it for me?

581
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 8: Yeah?

582
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 11: You want me read it? Yeah, it's a good one.

583
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 11: That came in twenty two March twenty third, twenty twenty two.

584
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 11: Dear miss Case, Over the years, I have seen you

585
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 11: on occasion, oftentimes at some MIP events. That's the Midwest

586
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 11: Innocent Project, and I went for every one of them,

587
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 11: you pay one hundred and twenty five dollars. And the

588
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 11: first time I saw him there with his wife, I

589
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 11: was like. I went up to him and I says,

590
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 11: what are you doing here? And his wife looked at

591
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 11: me very scared because you know, but I was like,

592
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 11: this is the innocent project, what are you doing here. Also,

593
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 11: over the course of years, I received correspondence from you

594
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 11: and from others who I believe to be friends or acquaintances.

595
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 11: I have decided it is time to write you back.

596
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 11: I think I simply cannot imagine the pain a parent

597
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 11: must feel if there is a son or a daughter

598
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 11: in prison for a crime they did not commit. I

599
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 11: know that you steadfastly believe in your son's innocence. As

600
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 11: we all know, I was a trial judge to preside

601
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 11: over your son's case and impose the sentence. Over my career,

602
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 11: I have been involved or touched several cases involving there's

603
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 11: some mistakes in here too, involving the issue of innocence.

604
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 11: I have done so both as a prosecutor and as

605
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 11: a defense lawyer. Providing innocence after conviction can be very

606
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 11: difficult and very frustrating for the innocent who are seeking relief.

607
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 11: I have long ago recognized that your son could be innocent.

608
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 11: I remember how he was taken back when the wordict

609
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 11: was read in the court room. So know that you

610
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 11: have continually been his champion, believing totally in his innocence.

611
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 11: As a retired judicial officer, I cannot and should be

612
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 11: directly involved in Byron's case. Candidly, I am not fully

613
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 11: aware of what has transpired since his conviction. However, please

614
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 11: accept my prayers for you and him. I would encourage

615
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 11: you to continue to seek any relief that is possible

616
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 11: on behalf of your son. If there are any lawyers involved,

617
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 11: I am happy to talk with them and give them

618
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 11: my insight yours very truly. Charles e Edwell, that meant

619
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 11: so much to me because I thought, oh, I did

620
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 11: so much. I send him the books, I send them

621
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 11: letters and kind of always just things about the progress,

622
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 11: if it was progress or whatever, or.

623
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: Something new or whatever. That's kind of a big deal.

624
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, that was a big deal to me. You know,

625
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 11: I have three brothers and one brother. It's the same thing,

626
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 11: you know, family. You don't know why people turn out

627
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 11: like this. But he said it was falsified. Like, what what?

628
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: That's right? One of Evelyn's brothers wondered if the Judge

629
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: Atwell letter is a fake? Is it? I reach out

630
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: to Judge at Well again to ask if he in

631
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: fact wrote that letter to Evelyn, and he responds with quote,

632
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: I would need to see the letter. I immediately send

633
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: it to him. No response. I write him again, Still nothing.

634
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to post a photo of the letter on

635
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: the Real Killer Podcast Instagram page. Does it look real

636
00:39:51,160 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: to you? Byron's legal team now has affidavits from the

637
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: medical examiner, the defense attorney, and the judge. Here's attorney

638
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Brian Russell.

639
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: So one of the things that always bothered me about

640
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: this case was, you know, Kelly says, Byron got a

641
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: gun out of the trunk. I can't tell you what

642
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: it looks like. It's just a gun. And he walks

643
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 2: over to her from five feet away and lifts it

644
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: to his shoulder and shoots her in the face and

645
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: then she's blown backwards. But when you look at the

646
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: autopsy photos, and you know, bullets they passed through you, right,

647
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 2: they passed through, Especially a high powered bullet, it doesn't

648
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: typically lodge in your body. If it's a rifle bullet.

649
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: It goes through, it goes through you. All the damage

650
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: that's done is the shockwave from the bullet and the energy,

651
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: but most of the energy keeps going with that bullet

652
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: far far away. And so if he shoots her while

653
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: she's standing up, if there is a bullet fragment left,

654
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: it's going to be somewhere inside her skull, and there

655
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 2: are you can when you look at the X ray

656
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: there are little tiny fragments inside of her skull, but

657
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: there's a sizeable bullet fragment found on the other side

658
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: of the exit wound matted in her hair. And it

659
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: always bothered me because if a bullet has enough force

660
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: to go through your skull, I just don't understand how

661
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: your hair could stop it unless something was behind your

662
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: hair to stop it. And so when we got the

663
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: bullet and looked at it, you know, no one had

664
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: ever analyzed it other than the crime lab initially to

665
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: see if they could identify what type of bullet it was.

666
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: And it's just a lead fragment. There's no jacket, or

667
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 2: no jacket was found in the scene or anywhere around it.

668
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: That kind of helps in some ways narrow down what

669
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: type of bullet this might have been. It clearly rules

670
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: out a shotgun.

671
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 9: No.

672
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that she still had a head,

673
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: as gruesome as that is, tells you this wasn't a shotgun.

674
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: And so, you know, trying to figure out what type

675
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: of bullet this might have been, the crime lab could

676
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: never figure it out. They still can't figure it out today.

677
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 1: I posted photos of the bullet fragment on Instagram.

678
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: So like half of the bullet that went through her

679
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: head is found lodged in her hair. And so we

680
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: turned that over to the crime lab with all of

681
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: these pictures and asked them several questions, and one of

682
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 2: those questions was isn't more like, based on the physical evidence,

683
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: is it more likely than Anastasia was standing up or

684
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: laying down when she was shot? And they gave us

685
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: a report. And this is the Kansas City Regional Crime Lab,

686
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: not some other you know yahoos that we hired to

687
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: say whatever we want. And they said, I'm going to read.

688
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: From the Kansas City Police Crime Labs No. November eighth,

689
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three blood Stain Pattern Analysis Report, which was

690
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 1: written by Nicole Blackwell, the blood Stain Pattern Analysis technical

691
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: leader like Brian mentioned for the crime labs examination. They

692
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: sent the crime scene photos. They also shared the autopsy report,

693
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: cranial X rays and other reports and more. Nicole Blackwell

694
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: does note at the beginning of her report that the

695
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: images provided were of relatively low resolution. She writes there

696
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: are limitations surrounding the examination of bloodstains from only photographic evidence.

697
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: Despite that, here is some of her opinion quote, there

698
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: is no bloodstain evidence to suggest that Anastasia Whitwell's fugen

699
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: was upright after bloodshed commenced. Therefore, the evidence and my

700
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: observations below provide more support that she was shot while

701
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: lying on the ground than in an upright position. She

702
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: goes on to write, quote, there are no blood stains

703
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: on or around her body that indicated any movement after

704
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: bloodshed began. No dripstains or flow patterns were observed on

705
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 1: Anastasia's clothing or face that would indicate an upright position,

706
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 1: or any position other than the one in which she

707
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: was found, which was on her back. The fanning of

708
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: Anastasia's hair above her head does not support that she

709
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: quote must have been standing when the gunshot was received.

710
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: That last part about Anastasia must have been standing. Blackwell

711
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: is quoting from a senior criminalist initial report back from

712
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: around the time of the murder. Blackwell goes on to

713
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: say her hair position and the gunshot could be completely

714
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: unrelated events. Here's Byron's investigator. Quinno'brien.

715
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 8: The blood splatter analyst said that gravity works in a

716
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 8: certain way and that it is very possible, if not likely,

717
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 8: that Anna's Stasia was laying down when she was shot.

718
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 8: There's no blood on her shirt and if she had

719
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 8: been upright gravity, according to the expert, gravity would have

720
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 8: pulled at least some of that blood down at some

721
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 8: point even before she fell down, but there's no blood

722
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 8: on her shirt.

723
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 1: It also makes you wonder if the ground stopped the bullet.

724
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: I have wondered that because especially if it's sort of smashed.

725
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it does look smashed, and.

726
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: If she were standing, then what it potentially would have

727
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: just passed through?

728
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 8: Right, And doctor Young says that what we're doing now

729
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 8: is part of the Sherlock effect. Doctor Young, he talks

730
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 8: about the Sherlock effects and how too many people get

731
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 8: wrapped up and that like armshair detective kind of thing

732
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 8: where they make theories and you know that it's just theories,

733
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 8: he said. The big test is is the testifying witnesses

734
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 8: testimony possible or is their story possible given the evidence

735
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 8: in front of us.

736
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 6: This is fun.

737
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 12: It's fun to like pose it and think about these things,

738
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 12: especially when you're removed from it, like we are like

739
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 12: just the mechanics of things and the physics and the science.

740
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 8: But first this is a real person. Yeah, And I know,

741
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 8: and I always get away from that sometimes, like not always, and.

742
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: Actually yeah, also trying to you know, figure out Yeah.

743
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: By the way, doctor Jung wrote a book called The

744
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: Sherlock Effect, How Forensic doctors and investigators Disastrously reason like

745
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,959
Speaker 1: the Great Detective. In it, he examines the Sherlock home

746
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: style of reasoning, why it doesn't work, and how it

747
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: can and does lead to wrongful convictions. So how much

748
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: of this case has become about the Sherlock effect and

749
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: how much of it is about hard, cold evidence. I

750
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: asked Brian Russell what the blood stain analysis report means

751
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: in terms of Kelly's story and the actual evidence.

752
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: It's just one more thing that blows her story completely

753
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 2: out of the water. I mean, I don't know why

754
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: she made this up. I don't know who helped her

755
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: make this up, but it is so clear that her

756
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 2: story is made up.

757
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: I do wonder, though, if Anastasia had been lying down

758
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: when she was shot, then how was a piece of

759
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: her skull found up to two feet away. Back to

760
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: Nicole Blackwell's report, she also gives an opinion about the

761
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: tire marks and car parts found at the scene. She writes, quote,

762
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 1: no physical evidence has been provided that can position both

763
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: the vehicle and Anastasia's body in the same place and time.

764
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: So basically the tire marks, car paint, and headlight glass

765
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: could have been left there at a different time, altogether

766
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: completely unrelated to Anastasia's murder. Blackwell concludes her report with quote,

767
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: no opinion can be rendered regarding the exclusion of the

768
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: possible of suicide. There is no bloodstain evidence that can

769
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: either support or refute a homicide or suicide claim. It

770
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: is reasonable that a contact gunshot wound to the face

771
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 1: may be carried out by oneself or another person. No

772
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: gun was recovered from the scene. This in and of

773
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: itself does not support or refute that Anastasia committed suicide.

774
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: A gun was removed from this scene, regardless of if

775
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: it was ruled a homicide or a suicide. By the way,

776
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: no testing was performed on Anastasia's hands for trace metals.

777
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: A few months before Nicole Blackwell's report came out, the

778
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: team sent the actual bullet fragment to the Kansas City

779
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: Police Crime Lab for the purpose of examining for the

780
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: presence of apparent soil. On August twenty eighth, twenty twenty three,

781
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: the trace report, written by Chief Criminalist Patrick Jones, comes out.

782
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: While no apparent soil was detected on the bullet fragm

783
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: Brian and the team are stunned by what is observed.

784
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 2: Blue fibers were found and she was not wearing anything

785
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: that was blue. There's a few different explanations and theories

786
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: that we have for that, some of them innocent, some

787
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: of them maybe not so innocent.

788
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: Can you give me sort of an overview of.

789
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:29,959
Speaker 2: Sure, Depending on what type of gun this was, there

790
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: are some bullets that could be packed packed with having

791
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: a you know, like an antique type rifle or handgun.

792
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: You know, I shouldn't call it a rifle, so like

793
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: civil war type guns. There was something called there's something

794
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: called wadding that is like a little piece of cloth.

795
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: That is, you pour the gunpowder in, then you put

796
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: this piece of piece of cloth in, then you put

797
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: the bullet in, and so that could have been hit,

798
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: you know. But also Anastasia's bed sheets were blue, so

799
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: there could have been some at some point maybe she

800
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: had had blue fibers in her hair that the bullet

801
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: picked up when it after it went through her skull.

802
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: There's yeah, we had that. That's still an open question

803
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: in our investigation is where a blue fiber came from.

804
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 1: That's here's Quinn again.

805
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 8: The Kansas City Crime Lab has infinite patients with us,

806
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 8: like non scientific idiots, you know, asking questions like what

807
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 8: kind of fiber is it? What does this mean? It's like, well,

808
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 8: it looks you know, it's a fiber, which means it's

809
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 8: fiber us and it's blue. But you know, you'd have

810
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 8: to have it tested to know if it was paper

811
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 8: or wood, pulp or fabric or and it would still

812
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 8: not be super decisive because it's so small. And when

813
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 8: the police went to the house to look at the house,

814
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 8: when they found a taser just sitting on I don't

815
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 8: know what to make of that. All I have are

816
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 8: like theories and my imagination. But yeah, that's what makes

817
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 8: this part of the story so hard. There are still

818
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 8: a couple of things that I don't know about. Damn.

819
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 8: Those bed sheets are blue, and there's a taser on them,

820
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 8: and there's a blue fiber on that lead fragment, and

821
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 8: I don't know what to do with that.

822
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't have any police reports or photos that

823
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: show Anastasia's bed sheets were blue, so this is not

824
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: yet confirmed. All I have is a case related memo

825
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: that says Sergeant Kilgore did, in fact have Anastasia's linens.

826
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 1: There's no mention of what color they are, and there's

827
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: no mention of Anastasia's bed sheets in any of the

828
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: evidence logs I have. Quinn and the others are looking

829
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: through their files for documentation that proves Anastasia's bed linens

830
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: were blue. But since we don't have that, is this

831
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: the perfect example of the Sherlock effect without any evidence

832
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: of what the blue fibers actually are. Isn't this pure

833
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: speculation that Anastasia's bed sheets are somehow tied to the

834
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: blue fibers on the bullet and ultimately her murder. The

835
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: last affidavit we are going to talk about in this

836
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: episode was written by a friend of Kelly's. Her name

837
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 1: is Angie Giannino. She and Kelly were close friends starting

838
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: around nineteen ninety nine. Two thousand, Angie was driving when

839
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: Kelly threw that bottle of alcohol out of the car

840
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: window in Cooper County, which resulted in both of them

841
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: getting arrested. Remember, Kelly was charged with littering. There was

842
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: a warrant out for her arrest. She eventually pled guilty

843
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: and was given two years probation and forty eight hours

844
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: of shock time in jail. Anyway, on February twenty second,

845
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Angie writes an affi David. Besides discussing

846
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 1: the days she and Kelly got arrested, she also talks

847
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,919
Speaker 1: about how she was at Kelly's house for the June

848
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: fifth recorded phone call with Byron. I'm going to read

849
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: what she wrote about that quote. I was present on

850
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 1: June five, two thousand and one, when Kelly Moffatt called

851
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 1: Byron Case on behalf of the Jackson County Prosecutor's office

852
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: in an attempt to have Byron Case confess to the

853
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: murder of Anastasia Whitpolsfugen. When I arrived at Kelly's house

854
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: the day of the phone call. A woman I assumed

855
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: was law enforcement was already there. Kelly told me she

856
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: needed me to come over for emotional support. Kelly had

857
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: been drinking heavily and drank up until the phone call.

858
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: I did not hear the actual conversation Kelly had with Byron.

859
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: I assumed the woman who was present for the call

860
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: was law enforcement, even though she was not in a uniform.

861
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: I do not remember the name of that female officer.

862
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure the officer told me her name, but I

863
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was. This person was not part

864
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: of Kelly's family, and I assume this woman listening in

865
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: on Kelly's call was law enforcement. Kelly was in a

866
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: chair by the sliding glass door while I was there.

867
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: I sat on the couch. I believe the woman was standing.

868
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: So who is this woman? Angie is describing. Quinn and

869
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: the rest of Byron's legal team think they know.

870
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 8: The very first prosecutor who was looking into this case,

871
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 8: who was assigned to this case, was Amy mcgallan. Even

872
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 8: with Kelly's statement, They're like, this just isn't enough. There's

873
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 8: not enough here. We don't think we have what we

874
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 8: need to get a conviction for Byron case. They need

875
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 8: a confession. They know that they need a confession, and

876
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 8: so Kelly volunteers to get that confession for them. Months

877
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 8: go by, months go by, nothing, There's no call to Byron.

878
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 8: Kelly hasn't been able to reach Byron. They haven't talked.

879
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 8: It's not clear that Kelly is even trying at this point.

880
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 8: And that's when she gets picked up on the warrant

881
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 8: down in Boonville in Cooper County. Now, the problem that

882
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 8: I have with some of this is that she gets

883
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 8: Byron on the phone. Kelly gets Byron on the phone twice.

884
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 8: The second time, it's documented that a lieutenant, a female

885
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 8: lieutenant from the Jackson County Sheriff's Department, is there. The

886
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 8: first time, there's no documentation of anyone being there except

887
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 8: Angie g Andino, and we know Angie was there because

888
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 8: we can hear Angie talking in the background before the

889
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 8: call starts. There are no other documented members of law

890
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 8: enforcement who are women on this case except for Amy

891
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 8: McGowan and the lieutenant who's there for the second call.

892
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 8: So we have pretty good reason to believe that Amy

893
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 8: McGowan was there. Pressuring Kelly into making this call. We thought,

894
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 8: for a minute, Wait a second, what if Angie's confused

895
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 8: and she's remembered the deputy that was there. Well, first

896
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 8: of all, we think the deputy was uniformed. And second,

897
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 8: that night, Angie's voice isn't on the tape. She's not there.

898
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 8: Her voice shows up at the beginning of the June

899
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 8: fifth call when Kelly is testifying on the stand. Kelly says,

900
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 8: that voice belongs to my friend Angie.

901
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 1: What difference would it make if Amy McGowan were there

902
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 1: or not? I mean, like, why would that matter.

903
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 8: I'm not sure that Kelly Moffatt would have made these

904
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 8: phone calls if it weren't for the pressure of Amy McGowan,

905
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 8: or if it weren't for the pressure of a potential

906
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 8: deal or a potential charge over her head. I don't

907
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 8: think that Amy McGowan was being honest when she told

908
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:54,479
Speaker 8: her colleagues that there's no you know, no other deal

909
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 8: with Kelly. You know, Kelly was offered immunity for her testimony.

910
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 8: I think there were other coercive measures taken to to

911
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 8: get Kelly's testimony. I think Kelly was a vulnerable young

912
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,720
Speaker 8: woman and an addict who was doing things in service

913
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 8: to her addiction. We know Kelly had contact with law

914
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 8: enforcement and that the prosecution didn't disclose that, and it

915
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 8: might not seem like a big deal, you know, it's like, oh,

916
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 8: it's maybe like, you know, a night in jail, two

917
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 8: nights in jail, it's just a misdemeanor charge. Well, you

918
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 8: try spending seventy two hours in a cell detoxing from

919
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 8: whatever drugs you're on. It's not pleasant. You know, she

920
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 8: could be facing more time because at this point she's

921
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 8: got drugs on her. You know, she's she's looking for drugs.

922
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 8: There's no doubt in my mind that there is more

923
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 8: to Kelly's story of being picked up on that warrant

924
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 8: and taken back down to Boonville in Cooper County. What

925
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 8: it is, I don't know. I don't know if the

926
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 8: rumors are right that she was caught with even more

927
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 8: drugs and then taken down to Cooper County because she

928
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 8: had that warrant. I don't know if the prosecutor called

929
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 8: and said, hey, this person isn't cooperating with us. She

930
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 8: won't get the guy we think is the purp on

931
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 8: the phone, and we need her to get on the

932
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 8: you know, get on the horn and get this guy's confession.

933
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 8: She's not doing it. Let's let her know that she

934
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 8: needs to be doing this. You know, I just I

935
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 8: would not put it past to Amy McGowan to be

936
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 8: that kind of threatening and coercive. I freed people that

937
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 8: Amy McGowan has put in prison before.

938
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 1: You know, I don't.

939
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 8: I'm not putting it past her to have really pressured

940
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 8: Kelly into calling Byron and trying to get that confession,

941
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 8: or pressured Kelly into testifying this way.

942
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: I mean, these are some big, big allegations. We have

943
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: no idea if Amy McGowan was even there, let alone

944
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: pressuring Kelly to make the call. It is fair to

945
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 1: say that Amy McGowan has been accused of some prescatorial

946
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: misconduct during her career. Though. In twenty nineteen, Ricky Kidd,

947
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: who both Quinn and Sean O'Brien represented, was released from

948
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: prison after spending twenty three years behind bars for a

949
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six double murder. It seems Amy McGowan withheld

950
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: evidence of an alternate suspect in his case. Once that

951
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: came out, other evidence that pointed to Ricky's innocence surfaced,

952
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: the state's Office of Chief Disciplinary Council asked for Amy

953
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: McGowan's law license to be suspended. In October of twenty

954
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: twenty two, the Missouri Supreme Court said there wasn't enough

955
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: evidence to support taking that action. She has since retired.

956
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: I asked Brian why Amy McGowan didn't stay on Byron's case.

957
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 2: We don't know why Amy McGowan didn't take this case

958
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: to trial, or why we know that she filed it.

959
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 2: We know that she was Kelly Moffatt's point of contact

960
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 2: while the investigation was still going on. We know that

961
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 2: she knew about the tape being made before Sergeant Kilgore

962
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: knew about the tape being made. And so there's probably

963
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 2: an innocent explanation for why she didn't try this case.

964
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 2: Maybe it's because she was too busy preparing for Richard

965
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 2: Buckley's case, which happened a couple months after this, which

966
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 2: was another wrongful conviction of hers, where she helped conceal

967
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence. After she left Jackson County, she went to

968
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 2: Douglas County, Kansas, and there's at least three other wrongful

969
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 2: convictions over there. As clear she has a pattern of

970
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 2: not taking her ethical duties as an attorney seriously. And

971
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's because, you know, what's the saying,

972
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 2: be careful when you go chasing monsters unless you become

973
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 2: one yourself. I don't know if that's I don't know

974
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 2: if that explains it, or if she just doesn't care,

975
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 2: or or she just has several missunderstandings.

976
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: Kelly Moffatt's friend Angie Giannino, never positively identified Amy McGowan

977
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: as the female plane closed officer at Kelly's house on

978
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: June fifth. I try to speak with Amy McGowan, but

979
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: am unsuccessful at finding a working email or phone number

980
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: for her. So I FedEx a letter to where I

981
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 1: believe she might live, asking if she'd be willing to

982
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: speak with me, but she never responds. I'm not even

983
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: sure she got it. I am able to find the

984
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 1: uniformed officer who was there for the second recorded phone

985
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: call between Kelly and Byron. She's no longer working in

986
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 1: law enforcement, so I'm not going to reveal her name,

987
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: but via Facebook Messenger, she wrote, quote, I really do

988
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: not recall this case. I doubt I'd be much assistance,

989
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: So then I offered to send her her reports to

990
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: refresh her memory. She said she wasn't interested, but she

991
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: wishes me the best with my work. I then write

992
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: her one last question, asking quote, around that time in

993
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 1: your career, would you wear a uniform on a regular basis?

994
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: She never responds to that. So maybe the unknown woman

995
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: Angie described seeing on June fifth was Amy McGowan, or

996
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: maybe she was this former officer, although when this officer

997
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: was present, she wrote a report about it, and I

998
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: don't have any police reports from this officer saying she

999
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: was there on June fifth. Before I get back to

1000
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: Angie Ginino, I want to let you know that this season,

1001
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 1: for the first time in our three seasons, the story

1002
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: is still unfolding. As the episodes are dropping, new discoveries

1003
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: are being made, and new interviews are taking place as

1004
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: we speak, which brings me to Kelly. She's been listening

1005
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: to the podcast and emailing me to share some of

1006
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: her feelings about what she's hearing. As you can imagine,

1007
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: there has been a range of emotions. After episode six,

1008
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: Kelly writes, quote, I'd like to set some things straight

1009
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: and also get the message out there for people to

1010
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: not quit fighting for genuine, wrongful convictions because of people

1011
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: like Byron. But I need honesty from you before I

1012
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 1: feel comfortable doing So what is your angle on all this?

1013
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: She goes on to write, quote, I need you to

1014
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: tell me exactly what your conclusion is going to be

1015
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 1: about Byron's claims of innocence. I will absolutely not be

1016
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: involved in anything that paints him as innocent or even

1017
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: hints at it. He's not innocent, and he knows it

1018
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: and is taking valuable resources and time away from those

1019
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: who are. I need your complete honesty and will get

1020
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: a lawyer involved so you can't suddenly spin it after

1021
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 1: getting the interview. So I respond to Kelly saying, I'm

1022
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: proud of the journalistic work we are doing the season,

1023
01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: which is not advocacy journalism. We make no determination on

1024
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: Byron's guilt or innocence, and I suggest Kelly listened to

1025
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: all of the episodes before making her decision on whether

1026
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: to sit down for an interview or not. Then, after

1027
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: episode eight drops, Kelly writes again asking me to forward

1028
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: her contact info to Byron's legal team because quote, they

1029
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: have so much information wrong that it is absolutely ridiculous

1030
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: and it's what they are basing all their theories on.

1031
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 1: It's insane how much they have wrong. Per Kelly's request,

1032
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: I forward her contact info to Byron's team. I hope

1033
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: Kelly agrees to talk with me. I'll keep you posted, Okay.

1034
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 1: Back to Angie Giannino, who said a lot in her affidavit,

1035
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: she also says a lot to me. Since this happened

1036
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 1: more than two decades ago, there are some details that

1037
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: are a bit fuzzy for Angie, but she can very

1038
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: clearly recall one day in particular, when Kelly made a

1039
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 1: devastating and shocking confession before ever coming forward to police.

1040
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 13: And she's bawling and freaking out, and I was like,

1041
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 13: my friend gives them a lot of pain.

1042
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: What did Kelly tell you?

1043
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 13: Oh my god, she told me that she witnessed Byron

1044
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 13: murder Anastasia.

1045
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: Next time on the Real Killer.

1046
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 13: It just felt like a very dark horse, Like I

1047
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:44,439
Speaker 13: just felt a very dark energy in the home.

1048
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: Two friends, two stories.

1049
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 9: My friend's really about the least violent person I ever knew,

1050
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 9: So the idea that he'd be involved.

1051
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 6: With let alone, like, you know, the primary actor in

1052
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 6: such a place, because it didn't seem believable to.

1053
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: Me, who is telling the truth? Did Byron ask you

1054
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: to live for him to be an alibi? The views

1055
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 1: and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of

1056
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 1: the individuals participating in the podcast. If you or someone

1057
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 1: you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts or a crisis, please

1058
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: no help is available. Call or text nine to eight eight,

1059
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: or chat online at the Suicide and Crisis Lifelines website

1060
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: at nine eight eight lifeline dot org. To see photos, maps,

1061
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 1: and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real

1062
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: Killer Podcast on Instagram and at TRK podcast on TikTok.

1063
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,

1064
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman, Executive producer Leah Rothman and

1065
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 1: Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, editing

1066
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: and sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by

1067
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: Cameron Taggi, Production coordinator Andy Levine, Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam

1068
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal council for AYR Media. Jonny

1069
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 1: Douglas Voice acting by Brad Avenue, Tom Virtue, David Teitelbaum

1070
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,320
Speaker 1: Executive producer for iHeartMedia. Maya Howard