WEBVTT - Reimagining 1991: Behind the Scenes 

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to

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<v Speaker 1>up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcasts

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<v Speaker 1>or at Pushkin dot Fm. A subject so many Americans

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<v Speaker 1>have to confront, sexual harassment. Women were calling and clogging

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<v Speaker 1>the switchboards, the question being asked, just where is that

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<v Speaker 1>line between friendly relations and sexual harassment? It was hard

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<v Speaker 1>to believe it was happening. A Supreme Court nominee on

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<v Speaker 1>the verge of confirmation being called back to answer charges

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<v Speaker 1>that he had once made unwelcome sexual comments to a female.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps not ever has so much turned on a single hearing.

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<v Speaker 1>There are a couple of things you need to know

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<v Speaker 1>about how I came to be sitting in front of

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<v Speaker 1>a nationally televised hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee on

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<v Speaker 1>October eleventh, nineteen ninety one. First, I crafted a statement

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<v Speaker 1>for the FBI about working with Clarence Thomas at the

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<v Speaker 1>EOC where he sexually harassed me. Then that statement was

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<v Speaker 1>leaked to the press. National Public Radio has learned that

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<v Speaker 1>the woman brought her accusation to the Senate Judiciary Committee

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<v Speaker 1>last month, and finally, after a public outcry, Senator Joe

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<v Speaker 1>Biden subpoenaed me to testify. I had three days notice. Remarkably,

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<v Speaker 1>my legal team somehow came together for one thing. When

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<v Speaker 1>we first talked, it was not even clear they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to do anything. We really didn't know whether they were

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<v Speaker 1>even going to consider it. That's law professor Susan Dela Ross.

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<v Speaker 1>She's an author and she is the director of a

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<v Speaker 1>women's human rights clinic at Georgetown University. Ross is one

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<v Speaker 1>of the women who pioneered the field of sexual harassment law.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't until nineteen eighty six that the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>ruled sexual harassment a civil rights violation. Five years later,

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<v Speaker 1>when I testified that Clarence Thomas had sexually harassed me,

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<v Speaker 1>it sparked a national conversation, one I never anticipated. Luckily,

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<v Speaker 1>I had Susan Dela Ross as part of my legal team.

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<v Speaker 1>She was the only one of us who had experienced

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<v Speaker 1>with sexual harassment litigation. Somebody on the Senate Judiciary Committee

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<v Speaker 1>called me up and gave me a hypothetical and said,

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<v Speaker 1>would that constitute sexual harassment? And I said, well, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it would, and he said, can you send

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<v Speaker 1>me a memo that would describe what sexual harassment law

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<v Speaker 1>consists of? And so I said yes, I'd be happy

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<v Speaker 1>to do that, and I sent a memo. And then

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<v Speaker 1>a few days later I got another call, this time

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<v Speaker 1>saying there was an actual person behind this hypothetical. The

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<v Speaker 1>person speaking to me said, would you be willing to

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<v Speaker 1>speak to this person? I said yes, I'd be delighted to.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, the person behind this hypothetical was me. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Anita Hill. This is getting even my podcast about equality

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<v Speaker 1>and what it takes to get there. On this show,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll be speaking with people who are improving are imperfect world,

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<v Speaker 1>people who took risks and broke the rules. In the

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<v Speaker 1>last episode, you heard from Sakari Hardnett, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>witnesses who wasn't called to testify at the nine Thomas

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<v Speaker 1>Confirmation hearing. We talked about how being excluded from this

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<v Speaker 1>historic conversation impacted her life and the country in the

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<v Speaker 1>past three decades. In this episode, Susan Dela Ross and

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<v Speaker 1>I try to piece together what else was happening behind

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<v Speaker 1>the scenes, much of which the public has never heard.

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<v Speaker 1>You and I talked on the telephone before my testimony,

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<v Speaker 1>and we were trying to figure out what we were

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<v Speaker 1>going to be stepping into and how we could be heard.

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<v Speaker 1>We had no notice of what was going on. Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Biden called the committee back in session to hear the testimony,

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<v Speaker 1>and he called me, and I haven't written down. On

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<v Speaker 1>October eighth, in nineteen ninety one, I was told that

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<v Speaker 1>I'd be called to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>they announced that there's going to be hearing that they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to ask you to testify, which you didn't know

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<v Speaker 1>before that day. Then you fly to Washington, DC, and

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<v Speaker 1>then the very next morning you start testifying there. I

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<v Speaker 1>was in Washington, DC, and I think we were all

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<v Speaker 1>just shocked by how fast it came about. I was

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<v Speaker 1>sitting in a conference room and that was the first

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<v Speaker 1>time we met face to face, and we were there

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<v Speaker 1>to try to prepare or what was going to be

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<v Speaker 1>happening the following day, which was when they told me

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<v Speaker 1>that I would be called. It's worn in to testify.

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<v Speaker 1>That day, we really didn't know much of anything. We

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know who was going to be talking aside from Thomas.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't know whether the committee was trying even to investigate.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there ever any real exchange of information about the

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<v Speaker 1>process and how it would work. Not, as far as

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<v Speaker 1>I'm aware. All we were told was that you were

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<v Speaker 1>going to be testified first, and that I got to

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<v Speaker 1>call the night before from someone on Biden staff saying, oh, no,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to switch it. We're going to start with

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<v Speaker 1>Clarence Thomas, which is peculiar to start with Clarence Thomas

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<v Speaker 1>rather than starting with you, who had the account of

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<v Speaker 1>what had happened. And the switching of the order allowed

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<v Speaker 1>for Clarence Thomas to testify on prime time morning TV

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<v Speaker 1>as well, when you know, people are still making their

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<v Speaker 1>way to work and still at home watching, so he

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<v Speaker 1>had a much morolder viewing audience. So it was just

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<v Speaker 1>t J. Yeah. Absolutely, And we knew nothing about information

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<v Speaker 1>they had in their hands, but I gather they had

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<v Speaker 1>refused to tell you well, and the hearing was about

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<v Speaker 1>his character and fitness for the position. There were women

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<v Speaker 1>who said that they had experienced or witnessed harassing behavior,

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<v Speaker 1>and others knew from their own experience that Thomas was

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<v Speaker 1>making sexual advances or using the office to assassin women

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<v Speaker 1>who worked at the EOC for their sexual availability to him,

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<v Speaker 1>and so there was much that could have been admitted

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of witnesses, and I'm particularly struck about the

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<v Speaker 1>lack of willingness to hear from those those women who

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<v Speaker 1>had experienced something similar or even other experiences that went

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<v Speaker 1>to Thomas's character and his fitness for the position. Did

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<v Speaker 1>you know about those women? No, I didn't know a thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think any of us did. We didn't learn

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<v Speaker 1>it until after the fact that there are other women

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<v Speaker 1>who worked at the EOC who reported a similar experience.

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<v Speaker 1>I only found it out when I read the transcript

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<v Speaker 1>of everything after the hearing. That was my first time,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was so astounded to see how closely their

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<v Speaker 1>accounts mirrored exactly what you had said. But that was

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<v Speaker 1>kept from the country. The country never knew that, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was the chairman who basically said, we're not going

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<v Speaker 1>to hear from the witnesses without explaining what they would

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<v Speaker 1>have testified to. So the committee kept them from testifying.

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<v Speaker 1>They didn't allow Sukari Hartnett to testify. They did put

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<v Speaker 1>it in the record, but nobody knew what it said,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was because the committee didn't write a report.

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<v Speaker 1>Committees always write a report after they do their work

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<v Speaker 1>before forwarding it to the full Senate for a vote.

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<v Speaker 1>But there was no committee report assessing the reliability the

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<v Speaker 1>credibility of you of him. People were left to try

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<v Speaker 1>to piece together what they had seen, which was a

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<v Speaker 1>totally incomplete set of facts. So there was very clear evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>The media never reported it on afterwards. They shut it

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<v Speaker 1>down once he was confirmed. So many of the senators

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<v Speaker 1>they just were trying to get rid of it. They

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<v Speaker 1>didn't want to talk about it, they didn't want to

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<v Speaker 1>explore it, they didn't think it was relevant, they didn't care.

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<v Speaker 1>So the general public has never come to learn exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what the evidence was that corroborated everything you said. After

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<v Speaker 1>the break, Susan Deller Roth and I posed the question,

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<v Speaker 1>what if what if the hearings hadn't been so poor

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<v Speaker 1>handled in nineteen ninety one, What if we had all

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<v Speaker 1>the information available, What if the public had been offered

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<v Speaker 1>a better understanding of sexual harassment during the hearing? Where

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<v Speaker 1>would we be today? You're listening to getting even my

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<v Speaker 1>podcast about equality and what it takes to get there.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Anita Hill, and I'm talking with Susan Deller Ross

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<v Speaker 1>the only member of my nineteen ninety one legal team

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<v Speaker 1>with experience and sexual harassment law. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>people had any real awareness even after the nineteen eighty

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<v Speaker 1>six decision by the Supreme Court that sexual harassment was

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<v Speaker 1>in fact a violation of a law. No. I think

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<v Speaker 1>people were very confused by it. Initially, the courts didn't

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<v Speaker 1>treat it as an employment discrimination issue at all. They

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<v Speaker 1>saw it as sexual activity, and it was sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a boys will be boys. What can you expect? And

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<v Speaker 1>because the facts are often really atrocious, there's a tendency

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<v Speaker 1>in media not to cover what really goes on in

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<v Speaker 1>these cases. I remember hearing people saying, Oh, I want

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<v Speaker 1>to be sexually harassed. You don't know what's going on.

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<v Speaker 1>When you say something like that, well you don't, And

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<v Speaker 1>I think you're right. It's a focus on sex and

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<v Speaker 1>not even sexual but on sex itself and that being

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<v Speaker 1>something normal and overlooking the term harassment. And even the

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<v Speaker 1>day when people think about sexual harassment, many people still

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<v Speaker 1>think that we're just talking about words, and we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about verbal exchanges and not the psychological and off and

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<v Speaker 1>physical harm that is going on in the workplace. And

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<v Speaker 1>certainly if we have that today. In nineteen ninety one,

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<v Speaker 1>when we sort of jumped into the scene in the

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<v Speaker 1>Clarence Thomas case, there was so much confusion. I think

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<v Speaker 1>the country would have been even further ahead if it

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<v Speaker 1>had gotten some real explanation of what sexual harassment consists

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<v Speaker 1>of at the time. Now, I think there was never

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<v Speaker 1>less progress, but maybe not as much progress as might

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<v Speaker 1>have happened if there had been a real attempt to

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<v Speaker 1>grapple with the issue at hand. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>I think really happened was a there were a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of women who were very, very upset about how you

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<v Speaker 1>were treated, and that convinced a lot of women to

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<v Speaker 1>run for office. President Bush, Senor had been vieting a

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<v Speaker 1>proposed bill that would expand Title seven to allow victims

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<v Speaker 1>of sexual harassment to get damages. After the hearings, he

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<v Speaker 1>finally signed because of the pressure of the Republican Party

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<v Speaker 1>was under for having supported sexual harasser from the women

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<v Speaker 1>who'd been horrified by watching what had happened. There was

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<v Speaker 1>publicity around the world about sexual harassment, So I think

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<v Speaker 1>if we'd been able to have a full presentation of

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<v Speaker 1>what actually happened, with all the sources of evidence that

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<v Speaker 1>were relevant, to the issue, people would have had a

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<v Speaker 1>better understanding it and gone forward. But nevertheless, it did

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<v Speaker 1>make progress, you know. But the fact that there was

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<v Speaker 1>an impact shows to me one how people were interested

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<v Speaker 1>and they needed to know the information. But it also

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<v Speaker 1>indicates to me that there was a lost opportunity, that

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<v Speaker 1>there was a powerful platform out there that could have

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<v Speaker 1>become a model for how to do this right. We

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<v Speaker 1>might have avoided some things in the future, and by

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<v Speaker 1>the future, I mean between now in nineteen ninety one

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<v Speaker 1>thirty years or so, you know, we might have learned

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<v Speaker 1>some lessons that could have been put in place. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think about all these what ifs. If there had

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<v Speaker 1>been a different kind of investigation by a different body

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<v Speaker 1>than the FBI or expert witnesses had been allowed, if

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<v Speaker 1>there had been less disinformation or information shared so that

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<v Speaker 1>people could respond, we could respond to without this certainly

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<v Speaker 1>overwhelming number of witnesses that they had. I had wonderful

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<v Speaker 1>witnesses stop up for me to confirm what I had

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<v Speaker 1>said to them during the time was exactly what I

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<v Speaker 1>was testifying to. And certainly, of course the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>the other women weren't called might have made a difference.

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<v Speaker 1>But there are still things that are nagging me personally.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I wonder had nine been handled differently, whether

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<v Speaker 1>Christine Blasi Fords testimony would have resonated stronger, or whether

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<v Speaker 1>the Kavanaugh hearing might have been structured differently. Right, I

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<v Speaker 1>had the same feeling of dejan view, here we go again.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they're keeping out relevant evidence, doing everything they

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<v Speaker 1>can to shut down what's actually happened. So I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you, what is that one lesson that we

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<v Speaker 1>should have learned from nineteen ninety one. Well, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it is the importance of really trying to find out

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<v Speaker 1>what happened and being willing to get the unpleasant details

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<v Speaker 1>out in the open so that people understand what's happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Because the basic problem over and over and the hearings

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<v Speaker 1>was a failure to put on all the relevant evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>There was an instead of an attempt to keep out

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<v Speaker 1>relevant evidence to shut it down. And unless you can

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<v Speaker 1>hear everything that bears on the credibility of what the

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<v Speaker 1>key parties are saying, there's no chance of finding out

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<v Speaker 1>the truth. Finding out the truth isn't about finger pointing

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<v Speaker 1>or vindication. It's about giving us a starting point for

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<v Speaker 1>trying to make things right. As we wrapped up our conversation,

0:16:44.276 --> 0:16:47.996
<v Speaker 1>Ross reminded me of another memory from a long time ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Just a few weeks after the hearing, we went to

0:16:52.956 --> 0:16:56.916
<v Speaker 1>a conference of women elected in offices across the country.

0:16:57.556 --> 0:17:01.636
<v Speaker 1>It was a delegation of state legislators, state women legislators

0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:05.116
<v Speaker 1>from around the country. We walked in with Anita leading

0:17:05.396 --> 0:17:10.036
<v Speaker 1>the way, and suddenly all the women rows, and they

0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:13.116
<v Speaker 1>had pink napkins, and they waved the napkins in the air,

0:17:14.476 --> 0:17:18.076
<v Speaker 1>and there was just this round of applause for Anita.

0:17:18.436 --> 0:17:21.876
<v Speaker 1>Such a contrast with what we had faced on the

0:17:21.916 --> 0:17:26.516
<v Speaker 1>Senate committee, with all those white men one side overtly hostile,

0:17:26.916 --> 0:17:31.156
<v Speaker 1>the other side sitting quietly and doing nothing. It had

0:17:31.196 --> 0:17:36.596
<v Speaker 1>gotten me through the winter. You know, I admire you

0:17:36.676 --> 0:17:41.116
<v Speaker 1>so much for the courage you displayed and standing up

0:17:41.116 --> 0:17:43.596
<v Speaker 1>and doing what was right, and in your dedication to

0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:47.516
<v Speaker 1>these issues over the years ever since. Prior to the

0:17:47.556 --> 0:17:52.916
<v Speaker 1>Thomas Confirmation hearing, many people didn't know that sexual harassment

0:17:52.956 --> 0:17:57.356
<v Speaker 1>was illegal. Now they do, in part because of the

0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:00.996
<v Speaker 1>hearing in nineteen ninety one. But knowing that the law

0:18:01.156 --> 0:18:08.676
<v Speaker 1>exists isn't enough to get equality. Victims and their allies

0:18:09.316 --> 0:18:14.316
<v Speaker 1>to know how to use the law. One thing that

0:18:14.356 --> 0:18:18.876
<v Speaker 1>struck me after speaking with Susan Deller Ross and Sakari Hardnett,

0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:23.516
<v Speaker 1>one of the witnesses who wasn't called to testify at

0:18:23.516 --> 0:18:27.156
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen ninety one Thomas confirmation hearing, is that even

0:18:27.196 --> 0:18:30.916
<v Speaker 1>though the process was imperfect, they both said that they

0:18:30.916 --> 0:18:34.676
<v Speaker 1>would do it again. I feel the same way. I

0:18:34.836 --> 0:18:37.356
<v Speaker 1>never set out to get mired in a Supreme Court

0:18:37.436 --> 0:18:41.316
<v Speaker 1>confirmation hearing, but what I did set out to do,

0:18:41.676 --> 0:18:45.156
<v Speaker 1>way back before I ever met Clarence Thomas, was to

0:18:45.196 --> 0:18:48.796
<v Speaker 1>tell the truth and to make our country a more

0:18:48.916 --> 0:18:53.636
<v Speaker 1>just place. In the rest of the series, I'll be

0:18:53.756 --> 0:18:58.036
<v Speaker 1>talking to other people who, like Hardnett and Ross, have

0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:05.076
<v Speaker 1>taken risks to make equality more possible, more tangible, people

0:19:05.236 --> 0:19:10.236
<v Speaker 1>who I believe we should all be listening to. Next,

0:19:10.396 --> 0:19:14.956
<v Speaker 1>I speak with Kimberly Crenshaw, who coined the terms intersectionality

0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:21.116
<v Speaker 1>and critical race theory. Race reform has in this country

0:19:21.356 --> 0:19:27.596
<v Speaker 1>always been met with a backlash, and sometimes the backlash

0:19:27.676 --> 0:19:30.756
<v Speaker 1>was more powerful and lasted longer than the reform. Jet

0:19:33.156 --> 0:19:36.436
<v Speaker 1>Getting Even is a production of Pushkin Industries and is

0:19:36.476 --> 0:19:40.316
<v Speaker 1>written and hosted by me Anita Hill. It is produced

0:19:40.356 --> 0:19:44.836
<v Speaker 1>by Molaboard and Brittany Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer,

0:19:45.596 --> 0:19:49.556
<v Speaker 1>our engineer is Amanda kay Wang, and our showrunner is

0:19:49.556 --> 0:19:55.396
<v Speaker 1>Sasha Matthias. Louis Garat composed original music for the show.

0:19:56.076 --> 0:20:01.836
<v Speaker 1>Our executive producers are Mia Lobel and Letal malad. Our

0:20:01.876 --> 0:20:08.036
<v Speaker 1>Director of Development is Justine Lane. At Pushkin thanks to

0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:15.116
<v Speaker 1>Heather Fame, Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barden, John Schnars,

0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:19.436
<v Speaker 1>and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on Twitter at

0:20:19.476 --> 0:20:25.196
<v Speaker 1>Anita Hill and on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can

0:20:25.196 --> 0:20:29.836
<v Speaker 1>find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods, and

0:20:29.956 --> 0:20:33.396
<v Speaker 1>you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot

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<v Speaker 1>f M. If you love this show and others from

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin

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<v Speaker 1>to listen