WEBVTT - Confederate Monument Removal Faces Legal Hurdles (Audio) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.480 The deadly violence in Charlottesville over the proposed removal of 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:07.520 a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee has ramped 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:10.719 up a debate over Confederate monuments that has been underway 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.880 since Dylan Rufe killed nine Blacks in a Charleston church. 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:18.639 In some public officials are trying to prevent future violence 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.040 over Confederate symbols, so under the cover of darkness for 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:25.600 instant a statue of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.280 was removed from Baltimore's Wyman Park. But it's not quite 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:31.520 so easy in other states, where there are laws in 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.320 place banning the removal of the monuments or make it 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.400 very difficult to do so. Alabama has such a law, 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.120 and its Attorney general is suing the city of Birmingham 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.400 after the mayor ordered a Confederate monument to be covered 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.120 to send a message to white supremacist. Mayor William Bell 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.879 says he's not against leaving the statue there, but he 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.800 wants to put it in some context. How can we 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.319 tell the full story of what the Confederates represented, so 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.760 that if the monument is maintained there, that people will 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:05.000 know what the full impact of what it represents joining 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:08.360 me is Alfred Brophy, professor at the University of Alabama 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.480 Law School. Alfred, how many states about are there that 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.880 have laws protecting Confederate monuments and how do those laws vary? 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.520 About six of them. They started with South Carolina back 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.000 in two thousand when there was a movement to take 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.920 the Confederate flag off the dome of the capital in 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.759 South Carolina. South Carolina sort of got that started. Then 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.000 Georgia followed shortly, and now we've got North Carolina which 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:43.520 passed one about a year and a half ago. Tennessee, UM, Virginia, Alabama. UM, 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:49.240 that's so. And and what they do is they say, 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:55.200 UM that you cannot remove a monument, and it's largely 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.640 to UM. Oftentimes they're defined as sort of war monuments 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:04.200 UM from public property without either the permission of the 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:09.080 legislature or the state historical commission. There's their minor variances 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.480 between those, but that's that's essentially the the You know, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.440 if it's on public property and it's a memorial, you 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.360 need the permission of a state agency to remove it. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.400 So in a study in the Southern Poverty Law Center 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:28.640 identified about Confederate place names and other symbols in public 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:35.280 spaces across the nation. They're also symbols marking graves in cemeteries. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:42.960 Explain the debate briefly of leaving them there and removing them. Sure, 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.720 so the case for removing them is that um, you know, 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:52.400 particularly Confederate monuments in public spaces, UM are reminders of 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.160 the era of white supremacy. Their their monuments to white supremacy. 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:00.000 They honor um, Confederate um, the fight for to maintain 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.400 in slavery, and they should be removed. The case against 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.480 removing them is they're sort of part of the landscape. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.360 They're reminders of the past. They're part of our history, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.320 and we shouldn't be taking them down, but we should 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:18.600 be perhaps adding some context. As Birmingham's mayor was suggesting, now, 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.480 what's the best way to do this. The mayor of 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:25.639 Dallas is forming a task force to discuss the city's monuments. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.720 Some governors want to move ahead to to do something, 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.320 but they don't have the authority. For example, Virginia's governor, 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.600 what's the best way to approach this? So if if 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:38.800 it's you're in one of these states that has a 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.480 history of Monument Preservation Act you're gonna either have to 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.600 go through the state agency in charge of this or 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.080 the legislature to get it repealed, or you know, people 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.720 might take action independently and just you know, hope that 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.960 this isn't challenged by the state. A g um that's 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.960 happened in North Carolina where some building a building was 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.360 renamed about a year ago on public property and nobody 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:04.240 ever challenged it. So, you know, sort of it's a 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.360 technical violation of North Carolina's monument law, but nobody cares, 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.160 or the people who can challenge it, you know, don't care. Um. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.800 I think these things should be you know, largely local decisions. 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.120 The people in the community who have to live with 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.400 the monuments, I think, you know, should be in charge 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.640 of deciding what they do. I personally think it's generally 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.400 a bad idea to take monuments down. I think they're 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:34.040 you know, important lessons and markers about our history. But UM, 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.279 I understand completely the idea that um, you know, for 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.520 many there are there, uh, you know, a sore spot, 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.560 and the I think the local community by and large 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.000 should make that decision. It's a it's a question for 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:50.520 many more of morality than of law. What about moving 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:55.119 them to a museum or some kind of museum setting. Sure, 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.920 so a lot of people who say we should contextualize 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.480 UM also say, you know, the extent that we move these, 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:03.640 you should move it to a museum. A lot of 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.480 times they get moved to cemeteries quite frankly, which you're 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:13.200 usually private property. UM. The UM. I think it's a 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.800 good idea to keep them up in place, because that 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:20.240 gives you a sense of the what the landscape originally was. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.880 It shows you that once there were people in charge 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.120 who you know, thought it was a good idea to 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:29.520 memorialize the era of slavery and civil war or fought 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.719 to protect slavery. UM. But I think monuments, I think 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.120 museum moving to museums or you know, a good halfway 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.560 point rather than just take it down. You know, you 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.840 can try and and you know, preserve that memory and 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:46.560 the context. UM. And certainly if you're gonna leave monuments 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.600 up or move them to museums, you need a lot 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:53.440 of contextualization right to to UM tell people why these 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.280 monuments were put up, why they were moved, what then 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.600 meant at the time, what they mean today. Those sorts 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.280 of things. Something that stands out to me is that 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.360 is the state of Mississippi's flag, which has the Confederate 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.120 emblem on it. Has there been an uproar about that 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.880 in anyway? There there has been you I'm sure you 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.320 followed them, you know, controversy over the removal of the 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.040 Confederate flag battle flag from the South Carolina's first state 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.719 House and then the state House grounds. I think that 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:27.240 flags present a somewhat different issue from monuments. Monuments, once 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.960 they're put up, um, you know, sort of will be 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.080 will be there for a long time. Flags if you 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.520 don't put a new flag up on a regular basis, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:41.440 the flag um wears out. And so, you know, Confederate 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.640 symbols on flags, most of which I think we're added, 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:47.680 you know during the Civil rights here in a sort 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.800 of response to the Civil rights movement, are a much 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.080 easier case to take them down into to alter them. 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.719 They don't have the same historical basis um that that 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.880 some of these older Confederate monuments have. In about thirty seconds, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.200 this is tough. But does it strike you as uh 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.800 strange that this is coming up so many years after 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:13.120 the Civil War. Yeah, it's interesting, it's fascinating why this 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.880 is coming up at this moment, I think it's UM, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.320 you know, yet another front on the culture wars about 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.440 how we think about American history. Obviously a lot of 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.560 this was also inspired by the tragedy the of his 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.320 shooting in Charleston, UM and then sort of that. I 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.119 think one event dramatically changed how the public was thinking 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.880 about UM, Confederate flags and Confederate symbols. Well, thank you 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.480 for joining us. I hope you'll join us again. That's 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.400 Professor Alfred Brophy. He is at the University of Alabama 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:43.160 School of Law.