1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: The deadly violence in Charlottesville over the proposed removal of 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee has ramped 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: up a debate over Confederate monuments that has been underway 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: since Dylan Rufe killed nine Blacks in a Charleston church. 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: In some public officials are trying to prevent future violence 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: over Confederate symbols, so under the cover of darkness for 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: instant a statue of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson 8 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: was removed from Baltimore's Wyman Park. But it's not quite 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: so easy in other states, where there are laws in 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: place banning the removal of the monuments or make it 11 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: very difficult to do so. Alabama has such a law, 12 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: and its Attorney general is suing the city of Birmingham 13 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: after the mayor ordered a Confederate monument to be covered 14 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: to send a message to white supremacist. Mayor William Bell 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: says he's not against leaving the statue there, but he 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: wants to put it in some context. How can we 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: tell the full story of what the Confederates represented, so 18 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: that if the monument is maintained there, that people will 19 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: know what the full impact of what it represents joining 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: me is Alfred Brophy, professor at the University of Alabama 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: Law School. Alfred, how many states about are there that 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: have laws protecting Confederate monuments and how do those laws vary? 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: About six of them. They started with South Carolina back 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand when there was a movement to take 25 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: the Confederate flag off the dome of the capital in 26 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: South Carolina. South Carolina sort of got that started. Then 27 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Georgia followed shortly, and now we've got North Carolina which 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: passed one about a year and a half ago. Tennessee, UM, Virginia, Alabama. UM, 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: that's so. And and what they do is they say, 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: UM that you cannot remove a monument, and it's largely 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: to UM. Oftentimes they're defined as sort of war monuments 32 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: UM from public property without either the permission of the 33 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: legislature or the state historical commission. There's their minor variances 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: between those, but that's that's essentially the the You know, 35 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: if it's on public property and it's a memorial, you 36 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: need the permission of a state agency to remove it. 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: So in a study in the Southern Poverty Law Center 38 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: identified about Confederate place names and other symbols in public 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: spaces across the nation. They're also symbols marking graves in cemeteries. 40 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: Explain the debate briefly of leaving them there and removing them. Sure, 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: so the case for removing them is that um, you know, 42 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: particularly Confederate monuments in public spaces, UM are reminders of 43 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: the era of white supremacy. Their their monuments to white supremacy. 44 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: They honor um, Confederate um, the fight for to maintain 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: in slavery, and they should be removed. The case against 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: removing them is they're sort of part of the landscape. 47 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: They're reminders of the past. They're part of our history, 48 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't be taking them down, but we should 49 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: be perhaps adding some context. As Birmingham's mayor was suggesting, now, 50 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: what's the best way to do this. The mayor of 51 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: Dallas is forming a task force to discuss the city's monuments. 52 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: Some governors want to move ahead to to do something, 53 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: but they don't have the authority. For example, Virginia's governor, 54 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: what's the best way to approach this? So if if 55 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: it's you're in one of these states that has a 56 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: history of Monument Preservation Act you're gonna either have to 57 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: go through the state agency in charge of this or 58 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: the legislature to get it repealed, or you know, people 59 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: might take action independently and just you know, hope that 60 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: this isn't challenged by the state. A g um that's 61 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: happened in North Carolina where some building a building was 62 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: renamed about a year ago on public property and nobody 63 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: ever challenged it. So, you know, sort of it's a 64 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: technical violation of North Carolina's monument law, but nobody cares, 65 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: or the people who can challenge it, you know, don't care. Um. 66 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: I think these things should be you know, largely local decisions. 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: The people in the community who have to live with 68 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: the monuments, I think, you know, should be in charge 69 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: of deciding what they do. I personally think it's generally 70 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: a bad idea to take monuments down. I think they're 71 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, important lessons and markers about our history. But UM, 72 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: I understand completely the idea that um, you know, for 73 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: many there are there, uh, you know, a sore spot, 74 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: and the I think the local community by and large 75 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: should make that decision. It's a it's a question for 76 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: many more of morality than of law. What about moving 77 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: them to a museum or some kind of museum setting. Sure, 78 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: so a lot of people who say we should contextualize 79 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: UM also say, you know, the extent that we move these, 80 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: you should move it to a museum. A lot of 81 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: times they get moved to cemeteries quite frankly, which you're 82 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: usually private property. UM. The UM. I think it's a 83 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: good idea to keep them up in place, because that 84 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: gives you a sense of the what the landscape originally was. 85 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: It shows you that once there were people in charge 86 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: who you know, thought it was a good idea to 87 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: memorialize the era of slavery and civil war or fought 88 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: to protect slavery. UM. But I think monuments, I think 89 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: museum moving to museums or you know, a good halfway 90 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: point rather than just take it down. You know, you 91 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: can try and and you know, preserve that memory and 92 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: the context. UM. And certainly if you're gonna leave monuments 93 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: up or move them to museums, you need a lot 94 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: of contextualization right to to UM tell people why these 95 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: monuments were put up, why they were moved, what then 96 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: meant at the time, what they mean today. Those sorts 97 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: of things. Something that stands out to me is that 98 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: is the state of Mississippi's flag, which has the Confederate 99 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: emblem on it. Has there been an uproar about that 100 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: in anyway? There there has been you I'm sure you 101 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: followed them, you know, controversy over the removal of the 102 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: Confederate flag battle flag from the South Carolina's first state 103 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: House and then the state House grounds. I think that 104 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: flags present a somewhat different issue from monuments. Monuments, once 105 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: they're put up, um, you know, sort of will be 106 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: will be there for a long time. Flags if you 107 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: don't put a new flag up on a regular basis, 108 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: the flag um wears out. And so, you know, Confederate 109 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: symbols on flags, most of which I think we're added, 110 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: you know during the Civil rights here in a sort 111 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: of response to the Civil rights movement, are a much 112 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: easier case to take them down into to alter them. 113 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: They don't have the same historical basis um that that 114 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: some of these older Confederate monuments have. In about thirty seconds, 115 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: this is tough. But does it strike you as uh 116 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: strange that this is coming up so many years after 117 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: the Civil War. Yeah, it's interesting, it's fascinating why this 118 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: is coming up at this moment, I think it's UM, 119 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: you know, yet another front on the culture wars about 120 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: how we think about American history. Obviously a lot of 121 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: this was also inspired by the tragedy the of his 122 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: shooting in Charleston, UM and then sort of that. I 123 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,119 Speaker 1: think one event dramatically changed how the public was thinking 124 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: about UM, Confederate flags and Confederate symbols. Well, thank you 125 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: for joining us. I hope you'll join us again. That's 126 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: Professor Alfred Brophy. He is at the University of Alabama 127 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: School of Law.