1
00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,879
Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

2
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift.

3
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,279
Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

4
00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

5
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,520
Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can

6
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 2: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

7
00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,920
Speaker 2: I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to

8
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,760
Speaker 2: do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,

9
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,

10
00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,159
Speaker 2: my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a

11
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 2: licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into

12
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,919
Speaker 2: conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious

13
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,960
Speaker 2: and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.

14
00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 2: Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, and welcome to

15
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,400
Speaker 2: another new episode of You Need Therapy Podcast. My name

16
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 2: is Kat. I am the host, and quick reminder before

17
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,960
Speaker 2: we get into today's episode that although I am a

18
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 2: therapist and again another week, you have too therapists with

19
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,759
Speaker 2: you today, this podcast does not serve as a replacement

20
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,680
Speaker 2: or substitute for any actual mental health services. However, we

21
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,399
Speaker 2: always hope that it can help you in some way.

22
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,679
Speaker 2: And today we have another returning guest although it's been

23
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,839
Speaker 2: quite some time, Yes it has, and another three Courts therapist.

24
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,440
Speaker 2: It feels like I'm just doing the realms of all

25
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 2: the three courd therapists. We have Stacy here, who is

26
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,320
Speaker 2: the longest three Courts. I guess besides me, you've been

27
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 2: here the longest. Yes, I get the trophy. Well, did

28
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,800
Speaker 2: you come on and talk about the first time being

29
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,760
Speaker 2: a black mental health therapist? I asked Stacy to come

30
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,200
Speaker 2: talk today because she actually brought my awareness to a

31
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 2: book that I have been reading intermittently for the past

32
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,840
Speaker 2: couple months, and I've talked about it on here before.

33
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 2: It's The State of Affairs by Esther Perell, who is

34
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 2: an amazing author, speaker, therapist, all the things, and works

35
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,520
Speaker 2: primarily with couples. So Stacey, who was reading this book

36
00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,480
Speaker 2: and telling me about it, and I was thinking to myself,

37
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 2: this is fascinating. I also need to read this book.

38
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:19,880
Speaker 2: I think you also said you got multiple of your

39
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 2: friends to read the book. I'm starting. Well, is anybody

40
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,119
Speaker 2: I'm reading it? Are we all listening to it? We're

41
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 2: all listening to it via audio book? Okay, well, I

42
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 2: want to talk about a couple of the things that

43
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,360
Speaker 2: I thought were interesting. Now keep in mind I have

44
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 2: not finished this, so I've picked a couple of things

45
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 2: that have popped into my brain as I was reading.

46
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,880
Speaker 2: But I think some of these really translate outside of

47
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 2: just affairs, and it really is an idea of relationships

48
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,919
Speaker 2: and what is a healthy relationship and what should relationships

49
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,600
Speaker 2: look like, which I think is a very interesting idea

50
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,520
Speaker 2: that we have in our heads. That we can paint

51
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 2: that picture, I don't know that we can. So I

52
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 2: want you to talk about a little bit what you've

53
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 2: learned as a person who's reading this book, but also

54
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,040
Speaker 2: as a therapist who also sees couples and individuals. I

55
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 2: want to talk about the history of how relationships and

56
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,959
Speaker 2: marriages primarily but any kind of partnership, romantic partnership, how

57
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 2: they started, and what they looked like in the past,

58
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,600
Speaker 2: and how that has shifted as time has gone on.

59
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,679
Speaker 1: Well, she presents this in a really interesting way of

60
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,680
Speaker 1: kind of this idea that both history and culture set

61
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,280
Speaker 1: the stage for what marriages look like, primarily in the

62
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,560
Speaker 1: Western culture, and how initially this started as more of

63
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 1: a pragmatic union than being about two individuals. She even

64
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,960
Speaker 1: gives the example of how marriage used to be more

65
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 1: of a strategic partnership between two families, where we're looking

66
00:03:52,440 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: to secure economics and social standing versus two individuals.

67
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 2: Falling in love, falling in love.

68
00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: And having children as sentimental legacy members and to keep

69
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,200
Speaker 1: again social standing and to promote social cohesion.

70
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,400
Speaker 2: Arranged marriages is what I'm thinking of. Like we're setting

71
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,240
Speaker 2: up these almost like business partnerships, is what they sound like.

72
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 2: Of That's how we're going to do this. What's interesting

73
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,440
Speaker 2: is even as you're saying that, I'm thinking in my head,

74
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,719
Speaker 2: but they fall in love, right?

75
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,560
Speaker 1: Nope, Love, love may come about, but love was not essential.

76
00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 1: Passion was more so independent of the marriage. And obviously

77
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 1: one could learn to love. But I think also romantic

78
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: love versus like loving you as a human. I might

79
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,520
Speaker 1: learn to love you as a human that I know

80
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 1: and I get to know, but that doesn't mean I'm

81
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 1: in love with you in a romantic love type way. Absolutely,

82
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 1: when you said passion lives independently of the marriage, what

83
00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 1: does that mean. It's an understanding that love not essential

84
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 1: to this. This is more about creating security and belonging

85
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:12,600
Speaker 1: from a familial standpoint and economic survival. So essentially it's

86
00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,840
Speaker 1: that there's not room for that within the marriage. We

87
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 1: are intimate sexually for the purpose of procreation. This is

88
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,159
Speaker 1: more so a job, not like passionate lovemaking, absolutely not.

89
00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: And her point in kind of creating more space for

90
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,480
Speaker 1: the conversation around affairs is saying, hey, let's look at

91
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 1: the foundation of where this even came from and how passion, desire,

92
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 1: romantic intensity, and euroticism were expected to come from outside

93
00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: that held the place for those sorts of things because

94
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,719
Speaker 1: that was not the ultimate goal.

95
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,080
Speaker 2: That wasn't the we got together.

96
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 1: Exactly, That's not what we were looking at as the

97
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,800
Speaker 1: importance of creating a union.

98
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, I thought, what was really interesting, I'm gonna pair

99
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,559
Speaker 2: this with a pop culture reference. But she was talking

100
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 2: about and I don't remember what country it was, but

101
00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,919
Speaker 2: she was talking about another country. So we in America

102
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,080
Speaker 2: where we're living this like, I don't know, I feel

103
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 2: like we think that everybody lives the way we do,

104
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 2: and everybody even though we know like life is not

105
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 2: the same in other countries, but we still assume that that, like,

106
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 2: everybody's out here just marrying for love all the time

107
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,440
Speaker 2: in other countries. She I wish I could remember what

108
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,800
Speaker 2: one it was, but she was talking about how the

109
00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,160
Speaker 2: women there were like if all of us left our

110
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,920
Speaker 2: husbands because they cheated on us, none of us would

111
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 2: be married. I think that is just something to think about.

112
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 2: And well, there's more we're going to say about that

113
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,839
Speaker 2: in a second. But I don't remember what show this was.

114
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,960
Speaker 2: It was either House of Dragon. What's this show that

115
00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,240
Speaker 2: that's from Game of th Yes, okay, so I've seen

116
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,800
Speaker 2: neither of them, but I'm still going to a reference

117
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,800
Speaker 2: from it. But I was I was doing a puzzle

118
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,160
Speaker 2: when he was watching an episode of it, and I

119
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 2: was asking him what was going on, And I'm pretty

120
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,160
Speaker 2: sure what was happening was that one of them married

121
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,279
Speaker 2: for that purpose, right for the business, for the like

122
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,480
Speaker 2: strategic like we need kids to carry our name and

123
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 2: the I don't know the throne or the crown, whatever

124
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 2: it is. But one of the men was actually gay.

125
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 2: And I'm just bringing that up because I know this

126
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 2: is a fake show. But like, the wife wasn't mad.

127
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,840
Speaker 2: The wife wasn't like angry at her husband for like

128
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:27,800
Speaker 2: stepping down, at her not being the person she wanted

129
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 2: him to be. She actually wanted him to be who

130
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 2: he is and he wanted him She wanted him to

131
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,600
Speaker 2: be able to find pleasure in the things that he

132
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 2: found pleasure in. And I just think that's very interesting

133
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 2: where she could have this arrangement and then also be

134
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 2: okay with her husband doing certain things because she knew

135
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 2: what the arrangement was. Yeah, and I have love with

136
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 2: this person, but maybe I'm not in this type of

137
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 2: romantic love with them. But it still makes sense for

138
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,080
Speaker 2: us to maintain this agreement because it still works for us,

139
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 2: and it still works for our family, and it still

140
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 2: works for a few future. And I sat there and

141
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,240
Speaker 2: thought about that. I think I even brought it up

142
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:05,520
Speaker 2: to you, but I can't. I can't remember it. But

143
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,360
Speaker 2: I thought about that for a while and was like,

144
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 2: we are so harsh, and this is not me giving

145
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 2: a psa that we should all be like cheated on

146
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:13,240
Speaker 2: our partners.

147
00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's just considering that that is historical

148
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 1: and that is promoted by culture. The pragmatic approach to

149
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,960
Speaker 1: that was how it was.

150
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,520
Speaker 2: And then as culture has shifted, and specifically as women's

151
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,199
Speaker 2: role in our culture in America, how has that impacted

152
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,559
Speaker 2: what relationships look like and what their expectations are.

153
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 1: She references just like the rise of individualism, the mandate

154
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 1: of happiness, which is totally like a Western culture entitlement piece.

155
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 1: And I think the last thing she says is like

156
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: the emergence of consumer culture has really contributed to how

157
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 1: things have shifted. The other thing we have to kind

158
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,679
Speaker 1: of look at as history in terms of like male

159
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 1: and female, is that female numbers are definitely the cause

160
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 1: of the.

161
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,679
Speaker 2: Rise of affairs.

162
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,160
Speaker 1: And it makes sense because if we're thinking about this, historically,

163
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,880
Speaker 1: males just had more of a past and an expectation

164
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:23,160
Speaker 1: to do that because it was too risky. Not only

165
00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,640
Speaker 1: did women just not have the too risky for women

166
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,200
Speaker 1: to be able to do yes, because you could get pregnant,

167
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,120
Speaker 1: you would embarrass your husband.

168
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 2: Bring dishonor to your family, yes, mol on.

169
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: So it almost like that removes the option that that

170
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 1: was even a thing. And so again coming to terms

171
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,560
Speaker 1: of today, where we have protection around those things and

172
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 1: that's not our largest concern of like I'm going to

173
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 1: get pregnant by a man outside of my relationship.

174
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,200
Speaker 2: That's not as stigmatized. I mean, it's still I mean,

175
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,439
Speaker 2: there still is something but it's not as it doesn't

176
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,280
Speaker 2: have the same type of consequence now, Yeah, especially because

177
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 2: women can work. Now, women have more of a place

178
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 2: in our society. Like we said, individualism as individuals versus

179
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,240
Speaker 2: as a partner to somebody, And so that has shifted

180
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,079
Speaker 2: the way affairs have looked, where like now there might

181
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,319
Speaker 2: be more affairs because now men and women are both

182
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,719
Speaker 2: having that. What I think is interesting is how that

183
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 2: has shifted our expectations of what relationships should look like. Yeah,

184
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 2: I think that was probably the most interesting part of

185
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 2: the book of her looking at Okay, historically, this is

186
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,240
Speaker 2: what history is set up for, the expectations and how

187
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 2: this works moving forward.

188
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 1: We've added that love needs to be a part whereas

189
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,800
Speaker 1: in the past we are participating in relationships. For the

190
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 1: more pragmatic approach, the rise of individualism and the mandate

191
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 1: for happiness is giving individuals more of life a choice perspective,

192
00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 1: and today we have a lot of choices because you

193
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,160
Speaker 1: have the choice. That has removed a lot of the pragmatism.

194
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 1: So she added this term that we are in like

195
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: the ultimate experiment. She added this term that we are

196
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 1: in the ultimate experiment. So we come from like these

197
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 1: larger communities. So with these changes, we are moving away

198
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,440
Speaker 1: from our central families and communities for jobs or what

199
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,880
Speaker 1: have you, like just eat more easily uprooted, and we

200
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,960
Speaker 1: are putting more pressure on this one other or our

201
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,640
Speaker 1: relationship together to not only provide all of those practical things,

202
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: but it needs to be love and security and predictability

203
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 1: and happiness.

204
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,559
Speaker 2: And also I want some spontaneity.

205
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:10,800
Speaker 1: With this predictability, and I just sew anything contradictory like

206
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 1: needs and wants, and she just gives space to think

207
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 1: about all of the pressures that we put on one

208
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:25,760
Speaker 1: relationship by requiring this really almost insane level of intimacy

209
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 1: to come from one place.

210
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,520
Speaker 2: I think that is really what I want to highlight here.

211
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 2: If I didn't see somebody break this down. We've heard

212
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,559
Speaker 2: this rhetoric. We've talked about this before of what makes

213
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,959
Speaker 2: relationships and dating and everything so difficult now, like why

214
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,840
Speaker 2: aren't people settling down now? Or why are divorce rates rising?

215
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,520
Speaker 2: Or this, that and the other, And I think there's

216
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,600
Speaker 2: many reasons to that. It's a very nuanced question that

217
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,520
Speaker 2: we can't just give you an answer to. But part

218
00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 2: of the answer is, well, we've shifted to what we

219
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 2: expect out of our partners. We don't know that we've

220
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 2: shifted that because we just move through it. Like I didn't, right,

221
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,080
Speaker 2: I get a history and culture. They do it for us.

222
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 2: So I didn't come out of the womb thinking I

223
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 2: wanted this in a partner, and then I decided at

224
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:10,920
Speaker 2: ten years old, I wanted this, and then fifteen I

225
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 2: wanted this. In twenty five, I've transitioned with it, and

226
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,600
Speaker 2: it's just this unconscious Yeah, you've been socialized to think this,

227
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,520
Speaker 2: and I just one of the exercises I do with

228
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 2: my clients a lot is this exercise around non negotiables

229
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 2: where I'll have them make a list of twenty, then

230
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 2: they have to break it down to ten. Then they

231
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,240
Speaker 2: break it down to five, and they make them pick three.

232
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 2: And it's not because you're only going to get three

233
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 2: of those, but I want them to see, what are

234
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 2: the things that really matter the most to you, and

235
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 2: what is the fluff that you've put on this list

236
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,120
Speaker 2: based off of what you've been told way to expected,

237
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,000
Speaker 2: what your expectations are that you might not even like,

238
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 2: really need like that. Usually breaking the list down to

239
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,559
Speaker 2: from twenty to ten is relatively not as difficult because

240
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, I actually thinking about this, if this

241
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,280
Speaker 2: is important, versus just assuming that it is. Yep, And

242
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,439
Speaker 2: when you're talking about we put so much pressure on

243
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,439
Speaker 2: one person to be all of these things.

244
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: Or can just this union even yes this because things

245
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,160
Speaker 1: might be going really well with you and the other person,

246
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:20,040
Speaker 1: But think about what you have kind of decided that

247
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 1: this union means again all those traditional aspects and then

248
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,040
Speaker 1: all of these new or more entitled things that we've

249
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:27,760
Speaker 1: put together.

250
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,720
Speaker 2: It's a lot. If I were to make a list,

251
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 2: I could make a list fifty things long that like,

252
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: this is what I'm looking for, this is what I deserve,

253
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 2: this is what I want. And there's nothing wrong with

254
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 2: having an idea of what you want. Yeah, but I

255
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 2: also don't think that a lot of people really take

256
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 2: the time to introspectively look at what is it that

257
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 2: you really when you were making this list and you're

258
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 2: creating this idea in your head of what this partnership

259
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 2: or this union is going to look like. What actually

260
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,600
Speaker 2: matters because a lot of these things we think I

261
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 2: should have this because I can so used to Going

262
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 2: back to the choice, we have choice. Now women get

263
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:06,960
Speaker 2: to choose we get to have a say in it

264
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 2: for the most part, not everybody.

265
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 1: Still, yeah, even brings that up that like in the

266
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: world we live in, I mean, well a lot of

267
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 1: places in the world, it's still so.

268
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 2: Arranged manage those marriages oftentimes last longer. There is a

269
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,240
Speaker 2: higher divorce rate for the way we do marriages than

270
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 2: other people, and that has a lot to do with

271
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,840
Speaker 2: the fact that we have choice, so not everybody can leave.

272
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,960
Speaker 2: But the same time, that doesn't mean that because somebody

273
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:36,880
Speaker 2: is staying in a relationship and they might not be

274
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 2: like having all this passion and this, that and the other,

275
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that they are not in a relationship

276
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,360
Speaker 2: that works for them or creates meaning.

277
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 1: Because I think that's what you make me think of

278
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: when you're going through that exercise, that a lot of

279
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 1: times we have not even decided like what does this

280
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 1: even mean for me? And that was also one of

281
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 1: the larger pieces that picked up from the book being

282
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 1: in our roleist therapist of like, that's my biggest work

283
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,239
Speaker 1: right now working with clients on self connection, because ultimately

284
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,760
Speaker 1: we can go through all of this and if you

285
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: aren't doing the work to figure out like what do

286
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 1: I like, what do I need what am I working

287
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 1: on repairing from childhood attachment so that I can even

288
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 1: communicate that to a partner or have this conversation.

289
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 2: You're kind of just stuck in.

290
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:33,560
Speaker 1: The large glob of what today's culture is saying that

291
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: this is what you need to be doing to be

292
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 1: happy and like.

293
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 2: And you're never happy. Yeah. I loved this part where

294
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 2: she talked about now that women have the ability to

295
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 2: leave relationships. Imagine you're in a marriage, or you're even

296
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 2: just in a partnership and your partner cheats on you,

297
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,800
Speaker 2: and there's there's some type of betrayal in that. We

298
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,800
Speaker 2: get all of these messages as women to like, know

299
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 2: our worth and to set your standards high and to

300
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 2: care about yourself and X y Z, and that translates

301
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 2: to leave him.

302
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:07,639
Speaker 1: Yep.

303
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,680
Speaker 2: And because I have the ability to leave him, if

304
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 2: I don't do it, that means that I have low

305
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:14,600
Speaker 2: self esteem or don't care.

306
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the fact that leaving automatically equals I don't

307
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,920
Speaker 1: have high standards. I mean I do have high standards,

308
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 1: or I'm not going to put up with your crap

309
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 1: stand for myself.

310
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,440
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, that's a lot of pressure in itself. Well,

311
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 2: and it goes to what you're saying is it doesn't

312
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 2: beg the question what do I want? What do I need?

313
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 2: And though I would not wish an affair on anybody,

314
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 2: I don't wish betrayal on anybody. It is true that

315
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 2: oftentimes those things, those types of betrayals and relationships can

316
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 2: lead to a more connected and a higher satisfaction in

317
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 2: the relationship if both partners are willing to dig deep

318
00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,399
Speaker 2: and work on and go tell the prepair in that

319
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,440
Speaker 2: way that works. And again pointing back to doing.

320
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 1: Your self work, those situations can be like a really

321
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 1: big catalyst in increasing and enhancing connection. I think it

322
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 1: forces you to look at yourself both parties.

323
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 2: And you're having conversations about stuff maybe you've never had,

324
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 2: and so it leads to that intimacy that people maybe

325
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 2: have on their lists and they want but they don't

326
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 2: have it, and so then they seek it out word

327
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 2: somewhere else, and then that event then triggers the necessity

328
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: to then go towards each other even seeking it out

329
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 2: somewhere else.

330
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: I think that's a topic in itself to be looked

331
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,359
Speaker 1: at later on. But linking that with the history of

332
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 1: this is a really important aspect that even back in

333
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 1: the earlier days of marriage intimacy connection, because of men

334
00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 1: and women's roles, individuals were more likely to create intimacy.

335
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,399
Speaker 1: And this is like non sexual intimacy in connection with

336
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: same sex individuals because we are bonding over caretaking of

337
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,199
Speaker 1: the children, sharing household items. Men are bonding at work

338
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 1: and over drinks and whatever they did after work. So

339
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: addressing the aspect that communities have broken down and there's

340
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 1: just more individualism, that's another aspect in fact that points

341
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 1: you to like, oh, I'm going to get all of

342
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 1: this from my partner person. Yeah, So we've even removed

343
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the intimacy that you do get from friendships.

344
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 1: And I mean we are socially connecting over technology and

345
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 1: not doing a lot of that in person with people again,

346
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: mounting all this pressure and seemingly unrealistic things on one

347
00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: relationship and one union.

348
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,239
Speaker 2: And what I don't want to send the message of

349
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 2: is that you should just lower your standards and you

350
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,159
Speaker 2: shouldn't care about things. Oh No, what I want people

351
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 2: to hear in some of what we're saying today is

352
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 2: that you are allowed to create the goals of relationship

353
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 2: for yourself. You're allowed to have onces and needs in

354
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 2: relationship that are individualized towards you and that are fulfilling

355
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 2: and fulfilling to you. Yeah. I believe this. As a therapist.

356
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 2: It is not my job to tell you what kind

357
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,679
Speaker 2: of relationship you should want or you do want, or

358
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 2: you need. If you are somebody that looks at relationships

359
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,239
Speaker 2: as business, more pragmatic, and it works for you and

360
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 2: you don't have these other parts that maybe I have

361
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 2: or somebody else has, but you get those in other

362
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 2: ways and you still feel fulfilled in your life. I'm

363
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 2: not giving you a problem. I don't need to diagnose

364
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 2: the problem, right. I think that oftentimes we create these problems. One,

365
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 2: we create them by comparing, but also the way our

366
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 2: world is set up you mentioned earlier consumerism, and like

367
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,959
Speaker 2: just the way that our culture has, like a capitalistic culture.

368
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,919
Speaker 2: We thrive on creating problems for people so that we

369
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 2: can fix them, like that is how we work, and

370
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 2: we also have become attuned to listening to those problems.

371
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 2: I was talking to Bridget last week on the podcast

372
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 2: about certain products that are marketed to moms and how

373
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 2: we have to be really careful of do I need that,

374
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: or is that creating a new anxiety in me that

375
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: now I feel like I need it because now I

376
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 2: have this new problem that somebody gave me that I

377
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 2: don't actually have.

378
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 1: And that's what she's saying about relationships and connection, that

379
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: our world, our culture is marketing all of these aspects

380
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 1: of connection and saying you need all of this. You

381
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: have to have all of this, or you'll be unsatisfied.

382
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 2: You'll be unsatisfied, you'll be unhappy, or if you don't

383
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 2: know your worth. You failed at connection. Yeah, you failed

384
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: at something. It's like that part I think is important. Yeah,

385
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 2: you actually if you're comparing yourself. If I'm looking at

386
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: somebody else's relationship and them like, well, I don't have

387
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: that in my relationship, I get this message that I

388
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: failed at connection. But wait a second. I'm looking at

389
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 2: somebody else's relationship and them like, well I don't have

390
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 2: that in my relationship. I get this message that I

391
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,719
Speaker 2: failed at connection, But wait a second.

392
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: I think that often creates a different, bigger problem too,

393
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 1: because more often I'm sure we start to turn toward

394
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: the partner and you're blaming them or you don't get

395
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: them successfully dating and nobody's good enough or I mean,

396
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about a lot of what I'm working

397
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: on with clients. There are some people who don't even

398
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: get to the point of practicing connection in a relationship

399
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: because they've not found a place in dating even or

400
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: even we're working on friendships and creating connection that way.

401
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: But I think it's a lot of input and a

402
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: lot of information of like you should be finding all

403
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: of these things in a relationship, and that's not true

404
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: for everybody.

405
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 2: As you were saying that, it felt a little different

406
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 2: as I shifted that towards myself. Rather than I'm the

407
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,719
Speaker 2: person that's going out and seeking I am the person

408
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 2: that somebody is seeking out. Like, imagine the pressure it

409
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: would feel to have to fulfill all those roles. And

410
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 2: sometimes this did come up in dating that I had

411
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: to check every single boxer was to check. Yeah, because

412
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: if I don't check it, somebody else will be able

413
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: to check it. So I better be able to provide

414
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: all these things. I have to be intellectual, I have

415
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: to be funny. I have to be outgoing. I have

416
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: to also be calm. I have to make money. I

417
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 2: have to be smart, like I have to Yeah, like

418
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: I have to be well traveled. I have to be

419
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 2: this family oriented person, but I also have to want

420
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 2: this other thing over here. And if we kind of

421
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 2: flip that script and we look at okay, imagine what

422
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 2: that's because we know what that's like, Like that pressure

423
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: to be perfect or to put our best to be

424
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: Like think about people making their dating profiles. I have

425
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 2: to make it look this way so like everybody will

426
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 2: think I'm a good catch. Not everybody will think you're

427
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 2: a good catch. Because we're all allowed to seek out

428
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 2: different individual things that are important to us and what

429
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: we want in a relationship. And I think, honestly, I

430
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: wish I had this book so many years ago, because

431
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: it would have shifted the way that I was dating

432
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: and that I was judging the people I was dating, Yeah,

433
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: in good ways, And like I should be looking more

434
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 2: tactfully about this one thing and I should stop worrying

435
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: about all this other shit that I don't really care about.

436
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, And That's what I was thinking when you were like,

437
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: what does that message send? And I'm thinking it creates

438
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: a lot of blame and a lot of missed opportunity

439
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: to connect with people that you actually might become really

440
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: good friends with or this is the partner you actually needed. However,

441
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: you're so bombarded and like you said, comparing and we're

442
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: just receiving all this information about quote unquote you should

443
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: have all of these things and all these aspects of

444
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: a union of marriage or partnership or whatever whatever position

445
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: you're in. So I really appreciate it opening the conversation up,

446
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: although she's mostly talking about affairs repairs, but just us

447
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: starting the conversation of where did this even come from?

448
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: What is the foundation of connection romantic relationships and partnerships

449
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: in the world that we live in, and kind of

450
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: giving us a new lens to see how can we

451
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: do that better today with all of these unexpectations of

452
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: like what she keeps calling modern love. She's like, we're

453
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: in the ultimate experiment. I'm like, it really is lots

454
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: of choices, lots of expectations, and it reminds us to like.

455
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: Down and we've never been here before. No, we've never

456
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: been here before, which feels like when you said slow down,

457
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, the experiment part of that allows me

458
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 2: to mess up a little bit because we've never been

459
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: here before. Yes, And so I can take things from

460
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: the past, and I can marry them with things in

461
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 2: the present and things that I'm hoping for in the future,

462
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: versus just assuming that what has been presented and shoved

463
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: into my brain is what I can and should want,

464
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: which I said to you before we started recording. I've

465
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 2: talked a lot about my frustration with dating coaches, and

466
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: I think that there's a time and a place for

467
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: them one hundred percent, and it also sounds like a

468
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: really fun job. But my frustration comes when they give

469
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: out very descriptive and concrete recipes for what you should

470
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: be doing, what you shouldn't be doing, what you should

471
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 2: look for, what you shouldn't look for, how it should

472
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 2: feel when it should feel that way. There's all these

473
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: rules that these dating coaches have. They might work for

474
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: a specific person really well, and then they might work

475
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: for another person to get the person, But then is

476
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: that actually fulfilling what they're looking for? And it doesn't

477
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: allow the flexibility and the nuance that we're talking about. Yeah,

478
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: and you said, when I brought that up, you're like,

479
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: there's no way to answer, like what is a healthy relationship?

480
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: Like what should we be looking for? Like we don't

481
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: have answers to that or.

482
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: What's going to be a healthy, fulfilling relationship for you.

483
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: You can't tell me that. I can can't tell you.

484
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: That this is based on so many aspects and so

485
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: many parts of us. And also who is this person

486
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: that we're partnering with? What does that bring out of you?

487
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: How are y'all together? How do you feel about yourself

488
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: when you're with this other person? So many of like

489
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: you said, the nuance that it can't be prescriptive of

490
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: it should look like this for.

491
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: You period, Like there's no flexibility in that. So I

492
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: think that they can be helpful. I've never experienced one,

493
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: but I imagine they can be helpful and it brings

494
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: up interesting information about however, this goes to even therapist

495
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 2: if there's somebody telling you versus like being really curious.

496
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: You know, the latest show that I've been obsessed with

497
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: and I've also talked about is a couple's therapy, And

498
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 2: oh yeah, she said something or the therapist said something.

499
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 2: She said, I never go into anything assuming that I know.

500
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: I always go into these sessions with my clients as

501
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: I'm trying to understand and that is so important. We

502
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: might have a little like Okay, I have a hunch

503
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: of what might be going on, but I can't assume

504
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: that I'm right until I ask more questions. And a

505
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: lot of.

506
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: Times our clients haven't even decided, like so how we Yeah, yeah,

507
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: I'm walking with them to help them figure it out,

508
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: them down so that they can think about it and then

509
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: they can tell me.

510
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, if you have anybody who's telling you that

511
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: they know more about you than you do, I'm not

512
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: I'm not saying run away, but I'm saying, maybe that's

513
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: take a pause, slow down, and see if that's really

514
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: working for you. And then the last thing I want

515
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: to touch on this moves more into like the affairs

516
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: part of what we're learning in this book. But I

517
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: just thought it was really interesting and I think it's

518
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: something that can be universally used, whether we're in romantic

519
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: relationships or not. And it was how she shifted the

520
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: idea of what shame is when we've messed up and

521
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: what guilt is. Oh yeah, because I'm going to ask

522
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: you to kind of explain this, but historically, how we

523
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: viewed shame as shame as I am bad. Guilt says

524
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: I did something bad, and so shame can be very

525
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: toxic because it can send us the message that we're

526
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: not good enough, we're not worthy, we're not loved or lovable.

527
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: And guilt is this more moral compass that says, hey,

528
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: you did a bad thing, there's a repair that needs

529
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: to be made for, and it kind of helps us

530
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: keep in line with our value system. So she talks

531
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: about it in a little bit of a different way.

532
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: So can you talk a little bit about what I'm

533
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: setting up here?

534
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that she's under the lens of this

535
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: repair aspect and looking at what the affair has meant,

536
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: what is it done? And if we are looking at

537
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: the perpetrator versus the person who's been hurt, she's talking

538
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: about the readiness of like are we ready to repair?

539
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: If you, as the perpetrator I've done something bad, is

540
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: more focused on your shame about it. That it's more

541
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: of an ego stance of I'm more worried about what

542
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: this makes me look like versus the guilt O me, Yeah,

543
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: how I'm viewed by you or the people around that

544
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: this is affected, or who you will talk to about this,

545
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: rather than the.

546
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: Guilt of I have hurt you, I have hurt us.

547
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: I've done this thing that has caused a big rip,

548
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: and if I'm there, she kind of just talks about

549
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: it being a better place of starting repair.

550
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's almost like, well, we're not ready to

551
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: do this work because you're not focused on the hurt

552
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: you've caused. Yeah, because you're hurt. Hurt, and I feel

553
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 2: sad or you know, guilty because of that hurt. It's

554
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: I hurt you, and I don't want you to think

555
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: I'm a bad person. I don't want your friends to

556
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: think I'm a bad guy. So I'm gonna or a

557
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: bad girl. I said, Guy, that was some judgment on

558
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: my part, but I don't want you to I don't

559
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: want anybody around you to assume negative things about me.

560
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: This has taken a blow to my ego. I'm looking

561
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: my identity and my identity. It's about my identity and

562
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: how that has actually hurt me. So I'm really trying

563
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,959
Speaker 2: to repair myself versus I'm trying to repair the damage

564
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: that I've caused with you and within our relationship. And

565
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting and a really interesting

566
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: way to look at it. And I was telling Stacy earlier.

567
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: I started watching the show, presumed innocent, I can't decide

568
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: if I like it or not, but definitely start. And

569
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: I'm not giving it away anything in this because it's

570
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: about a murder and it's about an affair. I don't

571
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: know anymore to even like spoil it. But the main

572
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: character was talking about how like he had an affair

573
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 2: and he felt so much shame about it. He was

574
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: talking about it with his attorney and he was like,

575
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: you don't think I think about this all the time.

576
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: I have so much shame, And the attorney was like, yeah,

577
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 2: I know you have shame. There's no question in that

578
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: you think about this all day night and how you

579
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: can fix it and what people are thinking about you,

580
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: and you're trying to rebuild your image image, Like he's

581
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: working so hard to actually get what he thinks is

582
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 2: the truth out because he's worried about what people are

583
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: thinking about him. Yeah, versus he is feeling guilty for

584
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: betraying his wife and his family. He's not remorseful because

585
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: he hurt people. He's feeling so much shame and is

586
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: wanting to like repaint this picture people have of him.

587
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: And when he said that, it was such a good scene.

588
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: If I can find it, I'll see if I can

589
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: post on Instagram. Me and Patrick both looked at each

590
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: other and we were like, that hurt a little bit

591
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: for somebody to call you out in that way, because

592
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times when people are in

593
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: that shame spiral, they think that caring about the other person,

594
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: but they're not. They're like, I feel so bad that

595
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 2: I hurt you, versus that I hurt you.

596
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's important to like further

597
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: this conversation, open it up, because once again, it creates

598
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: some pause that makes a person look at themselves and

599
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: I can more honestly or authentically say, Okay, I'm in

600
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: a place where I can repair this with you, versus like,

601
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: if we are trying to repair something, I'm continuing the

602
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: rip because I'm too focused on.

603
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: I'm not ready, and that can be so hurtful to me.

604
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: If I'm the one that you've betrayed, that can be

605
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: so hurtful for me because you can pick up on that.

606
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: So I think that's just something whether that's a fair

607
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: betrayal or just a rupture in any kind of relationship,

608
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: whether that's somebody you work with or a friend or

609
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: a family member. If you are more worried about how

610
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: this makes you look. You might need to like a

611
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: breath in before you go over and try to repair it,

612
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: because that can be way more damaging on the other

613
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 2: end of it. Okay, So, if you guys have any questions,

614
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: feedback thoughts, stories, or examples of stuff that's happened to

615
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 2: you in your life, whether it's the pressure you felt

616
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: or to leave something or stay something in a relationship,

617
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 2: or I think even I've had people write in before

618
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: that have asked me like, should I stay in this relationship?

619
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: Should I leave this relationship? Is this normal? And if

620
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: you stay on the theme of how I answer things,

621
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 2: oftentimes I'm answering with questions because I can't know and

622
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: there isn't a right or wrong answer unless somebody's threatening

623
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: to kill you. I don't really know that I have

624
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: a cut and dry way to answer something like that.

625
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: And so if you guys have any feedback, questions, stories

626
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: that I have to do with your life or things

627
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 2: that you've gone through, please send them to Catherine at

628
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: Unique Therapy podcast dot com and we can do a

629
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: couch Talks episode with some of those emails. And then again,

630
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 2: the book is the State of Affairs by Estra Perel.

631
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: It is a wonderful book. I will link it in

632
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: the show notes so you guys can find it.

633
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: And I would love to hear more of listeners' ideas

634
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: about modern love and the relationships that they're in or

635
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: just like connections that they're in, and if they've experienced

636
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: like any of these stresses or if this is like

637
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: opened up something, yeah, their eyes of like, oh, this

638
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: is much bigger than like the narrow way that we've

639
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: been socialized to think about it.

640
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: Well. And I think too, as if you have parents,

641
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 2: like the different generations, if they like sometimes I think

642
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 2: we can judge our parents' relationships it's like they don't

643
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: have this or that or the other, or we can

644
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,959
Speaker 2: judge it of like they have everything and I don't

645
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: have a different time. Yeah, And so I think also

646
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: I'm in my head just thinking about the differences in

647
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: like my grandparents' relationships and my great garments relationships, and

648
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: it's really judgmental for me to say it was good, bad,

649
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: right or wrong because I don't really know, and I

650
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: don't know what the needs were or the fulfillment levels were,

651
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 2: or what the when you said, like even the communities

652
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: like My mom said the family all lived in the

653
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: same town her whole entire life. My dad said the

654
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: family all lived in the same place until him and

655
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: his family of origin moved, so that's when it started

656
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: to look differently. Yeah for them, and I can't judge

657
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: them the same way I would judge myself because I'm

658
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: living in a different experience. Anyway, I could talk about

659
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: that all day long. So if you have any thoughts, feelings, stories, comments,

660
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: send them in. You can follow the podcast at UNI

661
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: Therapy podcast. You can follow Three Courts Therapy at Three

662
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: Courts Therapy and until Wednesday when I will come out

663
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: with another couch Talks. I hope you guys have the

664
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: day you needed to have. Bye Bye,