1 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Y'all tonight we're going to get an update on Delphi 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: and those of you that may not know this case, 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm just going to briefly, and I mean briefly because 4 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot over the last seven years. But it 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: was February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, when thirteen year old Abby 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: Williams and fourteen year old Libby Jerman they had a 7 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: day off of school and they just wanted to go 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: to the high Bridge and hang out and take pictures 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: and just do what friends do hang out. Libby's sister, 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: who then was seventeen, Kelsey, dropped them off right at 11 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: the head of the trail, waved by to them, reminded them, hey, 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: Dad's going to pick y'all up around three o'clock. When 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: Dad gets there, he cannot find them anywhere. He starts 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: calling other family members. Have they walked home? Did they 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: get a ride? Has anybody seen them? Nobody had seen them. 16 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: The family all comes to the high Bridge, They take 17 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: different trails looking for them. They ask people that are 18 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: walking around, have you seen two girls together? Nothing? Not 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: a sight of them anywhere. The search goes on through 20 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: the night, even though the sheriff tried to call it 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,559 Speaker 1: off because he thought it was too dangerous for people 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: to be out there in the dark. Friends and family 23 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: would not leave. In less than twenty four hours, their 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: bodies were found north of Deer Creek. Libby heroically had 25 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: taken a video of a man that she captured on 26 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: the high Bridge, a video so we know what he 27 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: looks like. That video also captured his voice. A suspect 28 00:01:55,360 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: was arrested October of twenty twenty two. So now I'm 29 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: going to bring in our friend, Susan Hendrix. Y'all know her. 30 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: She literally wrote the book it's called Down the Hill, 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. She worked 32 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: for CNN HLN as an anchor. She's an investigative reporter, 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: she's a podcaster, and most importantly to me, she is 34 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: part of my Zone seven. Susan, thank you for being 35 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: with us tonight, Charlol. 36 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: It's so good to be on with you. And when 37 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: you were recapping for those who aren't as familiar with 38 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: the story, that day is etched in our minds for 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: those who do know it, And as you were talking 40 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: about Libby's dad, the girls weren't nowhere to be found. 41 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: He was there to pick them up. I could just 42 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: wonder did the person that did this hear the voice 43 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 2: of Libby's dad who said he called down to them 44 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: and couldn't find the girls. It's just chilling to think 45 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: of that day so many years ago. 46 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: Now that's a horrific scene. And you know what, Susan, 47 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: I've never heard anybody ask that possibly the killer could 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: have still been close enough to hear her dad call her. 49 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: And you know, as a parent, I mean, you've got children. 50 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,399 Speaker 1: I've got children, and there's always a plan like oh, 51 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: can I please go here? Can I please go there? 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: And it's like okay, but you know, I'm going to 53 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: be there at three o'clock, six o'clock, nine o'clock, whatever 54 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: it is, to pick you up. And if they're not 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: right outside, at first, you know, you're like, well, they're teenagers. 56 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 1: They're going to push that a little bit, and maybe 57 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: they're going to be ten minutes late, fifteen minutes late. 58 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: But then you start to get concerned. If you don't 59 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: see them and they're not answering their phone, it doesn't 60 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 1: take long to be in a full panic, even though 61 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: they may just be talking to friends and not even 62 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: realize twenty minutes has passed. 63 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: Right, Especially at that age thirteen and fourteen, you could 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: lose track of time. And so at first there really 65 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: wasn't that much of a concern. I know that Derek 66 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: called Backy and said to be heard from the girls, 67 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: and she said no. And then slowly but surely, the 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: concerns started to build. And they never thought they would 69 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: hear that the girls were murdered. I mean, it didn't 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: even cross their mind at that particular time. They thought 71 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: maybe the girls were hurt because Cheryl, as you know, 72 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: that bridge is treacherous, even stepped on her walk near 73 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 2: So that's where their mind went initially, could someone fallen? 74 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: Did they both fall and it was getting colder as 75 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: the night went on. Never ever did they think they 76 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: would discover the girl's bodies the next day. 77 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: And you know that's the thing. You're not talking about 78 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: New York City, You're not talking about Chicago. You're talking 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: about Delphi, Indiana, that has never had a child murder. 80 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: That wasn't somebody in the family. Of course, it wouldn't 81 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: have crossed their mind. It's never happened. It's something that 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: big cities maybe deal with, but Delphi in the middle 83 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: of the day, in the middle of the day, in 84 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: broad daylight, in a place where other people were around. 85 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: Other people were birdwatching and hiking and riding bikes and 86 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: just enjoying the beautiful warm weather because it was unseasonably warm. 87 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: It had snowed previously, but on that day it was 88 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: pretty warm. 89 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that you bring that up, Cheryl that day, 90 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: and that of course will be the focus. What I believe, 91 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: based on new filings, the focus now of the defense 92 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: is the timeline, not what did they do, when did 93 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: they do it, and who was around to see it, 94 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: and what did they tell authorities and does it all 95 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: line up and make sense? 96 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: And you know, the timeline, that's your money tree as 97 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: an investigator. And this one, Kelsey drops them off a 98 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: little after one o'clock. They're supposed to be picked up 99 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: by three. To me, that's a tide window for the 100 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: location you're talking about. They weren't transported in a vehicle. 101 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: They were walked what a half a mile from the bridge, 102 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: So that's going to take a little bit of time, 103 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: right because it's uphill about a half a mile to 104 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: get to where the actual killing site was. So from 105 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: the bridge, when they're kidnapped to where they're walked. That 106 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: eats into a little bit of time the time they're 107 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: on the bridge, where again, I personally believe something happened 108 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: overtly before she started filming. That's what caused her to film. 109 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: I think, so again, you're talking about twenty minutes here, 110 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: twenty minutes there. Well, an hour's already gone of just 111 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: the setup and then the hike, So you don't you're 112 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: not talking about a long period of time. I don't think. 113 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: I think this was very fast with. 114 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: Abby on the bridge and the snapshot picture that was 115 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: sent by Libby, so that is a definite time, and 116 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: it's what happened soon after that photo was taken of 117 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: Abby walking on the bridge, And what. 118 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: Was the time of that snatjat That's what. 119 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: I was looking for. Was it too o nine? I 120 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: believe it was to two. 121 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: O nine sticks out in my mind, but I didn't 122 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: want to say it because I wasn't sure if that 123 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: was something else. 124 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: I believe it was two nine. I did hear Abby's 125 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: mom say through various interviews before that, she said that 126 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: that day of course sticks out, but the details. She 127 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: said that certain people were fixated on Abby's sweater. What 128 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 2: was she wearing? People who were critical of it, no 129 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: matter what family was saying, what, oh, they're off by 130 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: a minute. 131 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: Or was she wearing a. 132 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: Sweater or was it a jacket? And it stood out 133 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: to me when Anna said, I don't know what jacket, 134 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what sweater and they said it was 135 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: my sweater, but it was her sweater, and saying that 136 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: the minutia of that doesn't stand out because you're in shock. 137 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 2: It's where's my daughter? I cannot believe this happened to 138 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: her rather than the exact time. But we do have 139 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: the exact time again based on that particular photo. Yes 140 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: it was two nine, so that stands out. But if 141 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: I believe that the timeline is off, let's say, depending 142 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: on the witnesses. And you know, Cheryl more than most 143 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: that eyewitnesses cannot only be off on a specific time. 144 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: Maybe they were there unless their cell phone was on, 145 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: and they can document that, but also what they see. 146 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: And you and I both know the sketches will be 147 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: a huge part for this defense. At the latest here 148 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: and where I was, I remember the two attorneys walking in. 149 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: It was Baldwin and Rosie. Baldwin had the huge, giant 150 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: size sketches, side by side sketches, and how different they look. 151 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: And I believe that that will be part of the defense, saying, Okay, 152 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: did the eyewitness see this particular person that looks very 153 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: young the sketch? Again, it's not a photograph or this sketch? 154 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: Which was it? And was it both? And this is 155 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: worth repeating. Becky always said, I believe that it was 156 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: based on the person's age, on what they saw and 157 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: what they described to the sketch artist, meaning if you're older, 158 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: you may think the person looks younger. If you're very young, 159 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: you may think the person looks older. And I think 160 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: if he kind of put them together in front of 161 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 2: each other, which the superintendent has said that they can 162 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: have similar features. But I believe that that will be 163 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 2: the focus. 164 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: I think that's brilliant because the older I get, the 165 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: younger certain people look. 166 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: To me. I was just watching an NFL game and 167 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: I'm saying, wait, now, the coaches look. 168 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: Young at the point, right, Okay, Well, I recently went 169 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: to a police academy graduation and I'm like, these are babies, Like, 170 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: why are we giving them guns? Are you out of 171 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: your mind? Because they looked so young. That's what we 172 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: looked like back in college. We forget it's so pitiful. 173 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: What Becky said is correct, but I'm assuming that they'll 174 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: be poking holes in that. There is a motion to 175 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: compel that was filed, and this was filed within the 176 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: timeline of saying we want the jurors to go visit 177 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: the crime scene, to go to the bridge, to kind 178 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: of walk the path that Abby and Levy walked. And 179 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: the motion to compel has to do with law enforcement 180 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: being deposed and specific answers that they did not answer 181 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: based on the advice of the prosecutor McCleland. So they 182 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: want the judge judge goal to make them answer a 183 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 2: specific question. And it stood out to me here it said, 184 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 2: is the state's timeline, and I'm reading from the motion 185 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: to compel, is the state's timeline and theory of the 186 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally lawed, meaning 187 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: if they are off by a specific time or and 188 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: it brings up the witnesses. It says, if neither one 189 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: witness nor the other witness observed Richard Allen on February thirteenth, 190 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, is the State's timeline and theory of the 191 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: case as it relates to Richard Allen fatally flawed. So 192 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: if anything's off, I would assume that that's where they're going, 193 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 2: that this couldn't have been because where was Richard Allen. 194 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: They also want the jurors to visit where Richard Allen 195 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: allegedly parked in front of the old Child Protective Services 196 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: building allegedly between one thirty and four. So I think 197 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 2: going back to the bridge sharel relates also to the timeline. 198 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: The timeline is critical, there's no question about it, between witnesses, 199 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: between you know, items that were found. Her telephone, I mean, 200 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: think about it. Her cell phone is a money tree 201 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: because she did not record just guys down the hill. 202 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: We all know that there's more that's real time too. 203 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: So from the snapchat at two nine to the time 204 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: of the video, those are locked, we know that happen. 205 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them. No, 206 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: they're nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again, 207 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: this was a very fast deal. And y'all here's the reality. 208 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: Most children that are going to be murdered or murdered 209 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: in the first three hours. It's not a long drawn 210 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: out thing. If that's the result the perpetrator wants, it's 211 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: going to be fast. Your average rate lasts two minutes. 212 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: So again, even if they're both sexually assaulted more than once, 213 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: you're not even talking about a half hour. It's not 214 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: what people think. I'm one of those people, and I 215 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: get a lot of flight when I say this, but 216 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it again. I believe the jury should 217 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: see the scene absolutely, without question. It's important even if 218 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: the scene has quote changed, all of it hadn't, and 219 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: they will be able to infer. Okay, the bridge has 220 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: been repaired some Now we can't walk on it. You 221 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: can still see how high it is. You can still 222 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: see how narrow it is. You can see there's no railing. Right, 223 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: you can see the creek from there, and you can 224 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: ascertain yourself. Hey, if I'm standing here, you can't watch 225 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: fish from here. That doesn't make any sense, Cheryl. 226 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: As you know, only half of it's repaired, so with 227 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: the railings. I haven't been there since it's been repaired, 228 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: but from the images I've seen, and then it stops 229 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: because then it's on private property. So it almost cuts 230 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 2: off to the edge. You can walk off and see 231 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: the dilapidated bridge, so you can see what it used 232 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 2: to look like, almost like a before and after. If 233 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 2: there's ever a scene, ever a scene that should be 234 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: seen by jurors, that's it, because I'll tell you, and 235 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: I heard from Paul Hols who said the same thing. 236 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: So did you eryl your thoughts about the crime and 237 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: your opinion or if you had one going in completely 238 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: changes once you see that bridge. It changes everything. It 239 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: did for me because I saw Richard Allen, or not 240 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: Richard Allen. I saw the man on the bridge. We 241 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: didn't know who it was yet allegedly now they believe 242 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: it was Richard Allen was walking and I thought at 243 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: the time when that was released, they thought, we'd like 244 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: to spe early on, we'd like to speak to this 245 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: person on the bridge. He could be a witness. And 246 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 2: just the hands in the pocket and the lookdown. I 247 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: didn't think the bridge would be that high until I 248 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: saw in person and listen. 249 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: That's why I believe something overtly happened. And I have 250 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: said this from day one of the video or the photograph, 251 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: but I know there's a video seen it but I 252 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: know it exists. That photo. If you look at it, 253 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: like you said, his hands are in his pockets and 254 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: it almost looks like he's to the far right, which 255 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: to me is signifies he's turning around, which is why 256 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: she's videotaping. So I think he passed them, said or 257 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: did something, and then when he's turning around, she's capturing 258 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: him already. That's how just awful. Whatever he did alerted 259 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: her to the point that Libby pulled out her phone 260 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: and videotaped that man. 261 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I remember reading one of the witness statements 262 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: saying that he just one of them thought he seemed creepier, 263 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: didn't smile, and I'm paraphrasing here, but there was I 264 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: would assume that there was some sort of that Libby 265 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: and Mike has said this plenty of times. I think 266 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: she was plannying coming home and saying, look, Grandpa, this 267 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: creepy guy in the bridge. So I think that's exactly 268 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: what exactly occurred on that bridge. But you're right, she 269 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: knew to start hitting record, and in the video when 270 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: you see kind of the walk, I know they only 271 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: released kind of a step and a half, so it's 272 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: a little odd. And I remember when Superintendent Doug Carter said, 273 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: look at his gate. This was before at the press 274 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: conference before they released that short video of the walk. 275 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: Keep in mind of where he's walking, but watch the gate. 276 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: But keep in mind this is a dilapordated bridge with 277 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: big gaps in between, so this isn't a stroll on 278 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: a sidewalk. But take a look and do you recognize anything. 279 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: And you kind of almost see the knee turn a 280 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: little bit. So I think you're absolutely right that Libby 281 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: hit record and he turned around. And there's been speculation 282 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: on if in fact it was again innocent. He'll proven 283 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: guilty of Richard Allen. Was this a plan for having Libby? 284 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: I believe based on what I've read, and I'm this 285 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 2: is just a guest. I don't know exactly what happened, 286 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: his thoughts beforehand. Maybe the evidence will show that. I 287 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: believe that he planned to do something that day and 288 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: Abby and Libby were there. I don't believe it was 289 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: the plan to do that to Abby and Libby. But 290 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: I think with the first set of girls who walked by, 291 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 2: there were four, three were listed because one was a 292 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: minor at the time. Four girls, and maybe he thought 293 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: four is too many. Then there was one woman, older woman, 294 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 2: turned around past Abby and Libby. According to her statement, 295 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: upcome Abby and Libby to the bridge. And did he 296 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 2: say in his mind maybe he had been down at 297 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 2: the bridge several times, he lived nearby. Maybe he had 298 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 2: been planning this four years. We don't know, and maybe 299 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: in his mind he thought, now's the time. 300 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: Well, he certainly picked the right day and he went 301 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: murder ready. He had everything he needed to accomplish what 302 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: he did. 303 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: The kids had off from school. Since we haven't heard 304 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: about the alibi. Was he off of CVSDY of off 305 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: on Mondays? Did he work the weekends? Was got the 306 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 2: perfect day for him? Knowing that girls would be down there, Kitts. 307 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: It's the perfect place. And that bridge, it does it 308 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,959 Speaker 1: for you. They can't jump off of it right, and 309 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: if you brandish your weapon, you're going to be able 310 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: to control them fairly easily. 311 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: It feels like a trap when you see it. 312 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: It's, oh, it's absolutely it's the greatest trap you've ever seen, 313 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: because as soon as he turns around, they only have 314 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: one direction to go, and that's the direction he wants 315 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: them to go in because he's already got that, you know, 316 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: that location, and had things I believe there again, ready 317 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: to fulfill whatever it was he did there. 318 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: And maybe he said to them, follow me and it'll 319 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: be okay, or I'm not sure. 320 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: What he said, but but you can hear him given 321 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: direction down the hill. Yep, he's telling them. And another thing. 322 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: And we've all talked about this, but it's worth mentioning again. 323 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: He is so controlled. He's almost quiet guys down the 324 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: hill like he's on autopilot. He knows what's going to happen. 325 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: They're probably trying just to hey, let's do what he 326 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: says so he won't hurt us. A lot of people believe. 327 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: That, Oh yeah, because I've been asked that, Cheryl, and 328 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 2: you know the answer. But it seems like a very 329 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: easy answer to me. I'm thirteen. My sister's fourteen were 330 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: a year apart. Let's say we're down there and I 331 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: see a gun, we're following him. It's not like we're 332 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 2: in our twenties or even then. Maybe I would follow him. 333 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: I don't know, but a gun would scare me enough 334 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: that I would comply. 335 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: And here's the important thing for the jury. They would 336 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: be able to see the trails, see the bridge, see 337 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: where the crime scene was. The distance I think is 338 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: really important. And then where a car was parked and 339 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: that proximity, So then from the cemetery to the car 340 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: as the crow flies, was this again scouted out and 341 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: pre planned? It would sure make me think. 342 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: That I'm wondering if they think that because of the 343 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: time and that we saw that snapchat picture of Abby 344 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 2: on the bridge, is the defense going to go in 345 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: this direction and say there's not enough time for Richard 346 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 2: Allen to have walked down the hill murder two girls 347 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: and then walk back up to where he was allegedly 348 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: spotted muddy and bloody. And I think, Cheryl, that they're 349 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: pivoting away based on the ruling by Judge gall from 350 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: the third party from the odist ritualistic sacrifice to now, 351 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense. These are contradicting each other in 352 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 2: terms of witnesses and the timeline doesn't fit. So I 353 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: see that's kind of where they'll go during the trial. 354 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: Quite possibly, you know, but again we don't know for 355 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: sure because the car didn't move to almost four o'clock, 356 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: so he had to me plenty of time from two 357 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: nine to four o'clock plenty of time. 358 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: That's true because if you think where he was walking to, 359 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: what did he do following that? Who was home? Was 360 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: his if it was Richard Allen, was his wife home? 361 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: Where was the location of anyone that would know him? 362 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: Were they in his vicinity? And what was he doing 363 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: before that car moved? 364 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: Anything that he ever said at work, anything that he 365 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: ever said to his wife's friends, casual acquaintances, like maybe neighbors, 366 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: even everybody's going to focus on that and they would 367 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: call and they would say, hey, he mentioned this. He 368 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: said that he was fixated on this. He talked about 369 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: this all the time, just like the neighbor that called 370 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: and said, hey, I saw him burning a bunch of 371 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: stuff after the police visited him the first time. I 372 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: think there's other people that have come forward that we 373 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: don't know anything about. 374 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: And that's an excellent point that we don't know everything clearly. 375 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you have to do in terms of the 376 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: prosecution in discovery, you share that with the defense in 377 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: vice versa, and share what you have before trial. But absolutely, 378 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: I don't believe the public it's been released in terms 379 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: of what we know and what we'll hear at trial. 380 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: You and I have been to that bridge more than 381 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: one time, and I will tell you again, I was stunned. 382 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: On the trail from where we parked our car to 383 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: the bridge. I was stunned. There were homes. 384 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: Oh so it was hot. 385 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: It's just not something right, that's not something I thought. 386 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: So again, I think that's important for the jury. They 387 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: need to be able to see that. They need to 388 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: be able to see what's north, south, east and west 389 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: of that bridge. They need to see where he could 390 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: have come, where he could have exited. You know, does 391 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: it make the most sense he would have parked a 392 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: car here and why all of those things seem like 393 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: the killer scouted this area and they need to be 394 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: able to come to that conclusion on their own. But 395 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: there's only one way to do it. Like you said, 396 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: I could describe that bridge to people all day long, 397 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: but when you're standing there. My sister Charlane couldn't wait 398 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: to get on that bridge and walk across it. I'm like, well, 399 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: you can tell me what it looks like, because it 400 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: just doesn't look safe in any way. And it was 401 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: much higher than I thought, and there were boards missing, 402 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: there were other boards that were rotted, and I'm like, yeah, 403 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: this is a dangerous bridge to traverse in any way, 404 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: much less with your hands in your pocket. It takes 405 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: your breath. 406 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 2: Away when you see it, maybe because we know what 407 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: happened there, but when I walked up to it, and 408 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: I think, even if nothing happened there and I walked 409 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 2: up to that bridge, I would say, that's what I said. 410 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: I was with Kelsey the first time I walked there. 411 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: I know you were there with Kelsey. This was twenty nineteen, 412 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: and I went and it really just took my breath 413 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: away because of how massive it is, sixty three feet high. 414 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: You could say that all day. That sounds hip, but 415 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: when you see it in person, and I'm scared of heights. 416 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 2: And two photojournalists were with us from CNN and they 417 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: had drones and they were, you know, they're just so 418 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: skilled at what they do, great friends, and so they said, 419 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 2: come on, Susan, can you just I said, I'm scared 420 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: of heights. I said, well, just take a couple steps 421 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 2: out and just talk about what you're going to say 422 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 2: in a stand up as it's called. And I literally 423 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 2: couldn't walk, Cheryl, not two feet, not a foot. I 424 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: couldn't step on there no. 425 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: I get it. And you know how older sisters can be. 426 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: Charlene was like, come on, come on, and she said, 427 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: you're not scared of hide. She was able to walk 428 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: on it, oh honey, like it was nothing. 429 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 2: See that's brave. 430 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: And she was like, you're not afraid of hides. And 431 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: I said, I'm not afraid of hides, I'm afraid of rickity. 432 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: I mean, well, I will say because I do mention 433 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: this when I wrote about it, because I think I 434 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: was so drawn to this case for so many reasons. 435 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 2: Of course the family, but immediately when I saw the 436 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 2: picture of Abby, I thought of my sister and I. 437 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: We used to go, we called it down the brook 438 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: behind my house in New Jersey, and there was these 439 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: sewer pipes, massive pipes. I'd say that there's pipe one 440 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 2: and pipe two, and we meet each other. We were like, 441 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: I'm not kidding ten eleven, twelve thirteen. We were in 442 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: the back of our house all the time on these 443 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: pipes with slimy water and didn't care. And so the 444 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 2: second pipe, I'd say was about twenty feet up. I 445 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: wouldn't walk on that one, but the lower one pipe 446 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: one was about fifteen feet and I got so used 447 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: to it, I'd stroll across it. So I think when 448 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 2: you're young, when you're that age, you don't have any fear. 449 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: I didn't. This came later, the fear of pipes. But 450 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 2: so I think that I know that Libby had been 451 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 2: on there, how many times Abby had. They took their time, 452 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: but they were able to do that, and those who 453 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: aren't afraid of fights. But with Richard Allen, just seeing 454 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: that and seeing the video and him strolling, you would 455 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: have thought it was two feet up or just a sidewalk. 456 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: He was strolling. 457 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: As far as the jury visiting, I'm for it. They 458 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: got to be able to walk it, hear it, see it, 459 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: smell it. They just do. They've got to know the 460 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: area and they've got to say to themselves, what does 461 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: this scene tell me now? The other thing that has happened. 462 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: They said they can't mention the oldinizzle. I think that's 463 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: the right call too. 464 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 2: I do too, And I was there at the hearing. 465 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: I mean, the judge hadn't made the ruling yet, but 466 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: when this was discussed, and when I saw the judges 467 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 2: ruling in writing, it did say you can bring this 468 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: up if you can prove that they were there. Now, 469 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 2: mind you, there were witnesses called through the stand. It 470 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: was three days, twelve hour days, three days. It felt 471 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: like a mini trial, which it really essentially was in 472 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: terms of what can be admissible and what's not. But 473 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: they would call a witness to the stand and you 474 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 2: would think, Okay, was he there? That's weird to say 475 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: on Facebook. Okay, you have me here. This person said 476 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: to one of the investigators and I'm paraphrasing, if my 477 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 2: spit is found at the scene, am I in trouble? 478 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: That was Elvis Field? Well, of course that's going to 479 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: raise eyebrows. I mean, why wouldn't it. But nothing, Then 480 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 2: they bring someone else on the stand, another investigator. He said, look, 481 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: nothing we could do place them there. There were alibis 482 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: that they had. I believe it was Brad Holder who 483 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: clocked into work and then the gym, and with Elvis Fields, 484 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 2: I believe he was at home. But nothing could ever 485 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: put them at the scene. Nothing physically that they were 486 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: able to find to connect them there. But the judge 487 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 2: did say, if there is evidence that you could put 488 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: them at the scene, then of course you can bring 489 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 2: them in. So there was kind of a reaction to 490 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: that by some saying this is not fair. How could 491 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 2: she do this? The defense doesn't have a defense, Well 492 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: they do if they can prove that. You just can't 493 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 2: pick a name out of a hat and put them 494 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: at the crime scene and allege that they did it, 495 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: or say that they did it without evidence. And I 496 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 2: believe that they wanted to release that one hundred and 497 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: thirty six page memorandum disguised as a Frank's hearing to 498 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: get this out because there is a gag order and 499 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 2: they weren't allowed to say all this. 500 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: So of course. 501 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: Myself included all the news organizations talked about this document. 502 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 2: What was in it? Then it got the word out? 503 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: Could it have been ritualistic? Could it have been odness? 504 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: Now everyone's open to saying maybe it was. No one's 505 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: tied to any particular suspect. And I always repeat this 506 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: when I'm challenged about it. Why would the families want 507 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: someone who's not guilty in custody and have a killer 508 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: still out there. It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't. 509 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: So I think that really kind of hurt them releasing that, 510 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: because if they were able to prove that or brought 511 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: maybe Elvis Field or Brad holder on the stand, it said, 512 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: and question them about that day, where they were and 513 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: what was found. But now I think that's not allowed, 514 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: of course, without the evidence. Now I believe they're pivoting 515 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: to the timeline and poking holes in the investigation. And 516 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: you know, Cheryl, that investigation. I mean, it was almost 517 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: six years before someone was arrested, and even the family 518 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: was frustrated, and law enforcement themselves. Doug Carter said to 519 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: me several times, I've never had a case where we've 520 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: had this much evidence without someone in custody. He would say, 521 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: blame me, I understand. Just a wonderful man, he'd say, 522 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: I understand. So he understood the frustration, but he said, 523 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: there's certain things we can't say and won't say. Imagine 524 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: if they said there was an unspot bullet and let's 525 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: say it is Richard Allen and then he got rid 526 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: of the gun. So I understand that. But I believe 527 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 2: that of course law enforcement will be criticized and the eyewitnesses, 528 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: maybe their testimony won't be contradicting to each other. We'll see. 529 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: But to me, it's where was Richard Allen on that day? 530 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: And what other proof do they have? And as you said, 531 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: I don't think we know everything. 532 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: Well, you've been in Delphi a lot, and you've been 533 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: there recently for the latest hearings, and you know, one 534 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: of the things that just knocks me out is that 535 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: Allen has made sixty one incriminating statements sixty one And 536 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 1: you know, I was talking to my sisters one night 537 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: about this, and I said, you know what, y'all, if 538 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: I'm in jail and y'all know what's being recorded, and 539 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: every time y'all come talk to me, I'm confessing and 540 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm saying stuff, stop visiting, don't show up anymore, right, 541 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: please quit calling me. So, I mean, I just can't 542 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: imagine he's told his mama, his wife, guards, salemates. I mean, 543 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: he's told anybody that he has access to. 544 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the investigator on the stand, I thought he 545 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: was one of the highlights of the three day hearing 546 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: for me in terms of just the way and you 547 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: have experience in this, just in the way he testified. 548 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: I found him believable. I found just talking about kind 549 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: of what he's done in terms of listening to these 550 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: alleged confessions, and he just said, I've been listening. I 551 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: believe he said six hundred hours of video and of 552 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 2: the phone calls. On cross examination, they asked, you do 553 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: this with every prisoner, and why are you setting them up? 554 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 2: So that was kind of where they went with the 555 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: cross examination. But in terms of his testimony, and he 556 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: said it was around March that he noticed a turn 557 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: with Richard Allen because now he's listening so closely and 558 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: so intently that now he knows the nuance in Richard 559 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: Allen's voice, if you will, And he noticed to change 560 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: around March. And he said in so many words that 561 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: he had found God and that his biggest concern was 562 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: that he wouldn't go to heaven and wouldn't be able 563 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: to be in heaven with his mother and his wife, 564 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 2: and he wanted forgiveness, and he found God. And so 565 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: I think, maybe I'm speculating this is based on what 566 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: I heard during the testimony, that maybe he decided, okay, 567 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: I'm okay with this' and I'm paraphrasing he ruined everything 568 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: in this life, that maybe it could be better on 569 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: the other side. So I think the confessions just kept 570 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: coming and kept coming. And then I remember early on 571 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: before we knew it was so many that his wife 572 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: ended the call abruptly and spoke to Rosie. I believe, 573 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 2: so I could see where they could say false confession, 574 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: maybe once, twice, ten times maybe because they said he 575 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: shouldn't have been in that prison. He should have been 576 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: in a jail, and it was brutal there, and he 577 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: was being treated like a prisoner of war and it 578 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: was horrible, and that's why he said those things. So 579 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: that's their way to kind of excuse that. But he 580 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: also spoke about, according to the investigator, motive. So he 581 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: was asked by mcleland, did he discuss motive? He answers yes, 582 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there going what is it? 583 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: What is it? 584 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: Because we always want to know, Cheryl, I don't think 585 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: anything's an adequate answer. 586 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: Why? 587 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: Why was it sexually motivated? 588 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: Maybe? 589 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: But I guess I want a reason that I'm never 590 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: going to get how could someone do this? I want 591 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: the answer to that which you never really get right. 592 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: And I will also say, what could they possibly say 593 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: that you could accept for killing two little girls? Nothing? Zero? 594 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: But what I'm wanting to know has he given any 595 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: detail tales that are not already public? That to me 596 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: is going to be the biggest thing. Motive is great. 597 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: But I want to know does he know something that 598 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: only law enforcement knows and the killer. 599 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: And based on the testimony, I would say yes. But 600 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: also he was questioned on cross examination did he also 601 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: say things that didn't occur? And I believe maybe saying 602 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: the girls were shot not necessarily if that came out 603 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: of his mouth. So I believe so they there are prisoner. 604 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 2: If you're on suicide watch, there are prisoner, other prisoners 605 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 2: that sit outside. I didn't know this occurred of his cell, 606 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: and I believe that one of them said that he 607 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 2: said that to them in terms of a gun or 608 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 2: shooting the girls. 609 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: Everybody's got an angle and maybe that person wanted to 610 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: be able to have some information to make a deal. 611 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: Maybe that's true, maybe it's not true. Again, he's already 612 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: an inmate, so take it with a grain of salt. 613 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,879 Speaker 1: But again, something that can from Richard Allen own tap 614 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: that nobody knew but law enforcement in the killer would 615 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: be fantastic at trial. Now one question, I know you've 616 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: been there, I know you've sat through everything. Have you 617 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: seen his daughter? She has been mia. I do not 618 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: blame her. Anything you need to do to take care 619 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: of yourself in this situation, but I was just curious 620 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: if you had seen her at all. 621 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 2: I remember seeing a photograph, a picture of Richard Allen 622 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 2: on her wedding day walking her down the aisle. I 623 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 2: don't think it was a lot of years before. I mean, 624 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 2: Livvy were killed, but it's to see the family like that, 625 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: if it is Richard Allen, and to wonder how you 626 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: can go on living a quote unquote normal life, and 627 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: you do wonder how could this happen? And he goes 628 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 2: on living for close to six years. But I do 629 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 2: know that Kathy Allen is there, his mother is there, 630 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: and a couple. I look over at them during the 631 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: three day hearing and Kathy seems distraught. They're very close 632 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 2: to each other. I remember the latest hearing. I was 633 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 2: just there and they canceled the what was open to 634 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: the public and the families. The second part that was canceled. 635 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 2: The deputy came out and said that will not be 636 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 2: happening today. And I was standing near Becky and super 637 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: tendic Carter. She said what So. I think they got 638 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: everything they needed to get done and didn't feel the 639 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 2: public needed to come in. But I did see Kathy 640 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: Allen and Richard Allen's mom sitting together, and I believe 641 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 2: she looked upset about it. And then I saw her 642 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 2: outside of the courthouse talking to Rosie, one of the attorneys. 643 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 2: It's hard to see them. I do not blame the 644 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 2: family of Richard Allen. If it is him, I don't. 645 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 2: I feel sorry for them in a way too, I don't. 646 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 2: There is no evidence that they knew any of this 647 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 2: was taking place. And I know that she had been 648 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 2: with him since I believe, maybe even before high school. 649 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 2: So if that's who you know, and that's who you love, 650 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: and your mind doesn't even go there, and maybe when 651 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: the second maybe there were thoughts and the second sketch 652 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: came out and maybe she thought, oh, that looks a 653 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: lot younger. It can't be him. And I think the 654 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: human mind and denial is very powerful. It does make 655 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 2: me wonder, As you mentioned, the daughter nowhere to be found. 656 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: Never mention either, and. 657 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: Forget the sketch. They got a video, They've got his voice. 658 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: So yeah, do you think the trial is going to 659 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: go October? 660 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 2: I do, which is it's it's tough to wrap your 661 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: brain around considering how many delays there have been, But 662 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: I think based on the latest filings, the motion to 663 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: compel and what you mentioned about wanting the jurors to 664 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 2: go to the bridge. I believe they're moving forward. That 665 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 2: says to me, trial's coming, This is where they're going. 666 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 2: Jury's selection is on the fourteenth, and the jurors will 667 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 2: be so it will be held in Delphi to make 668 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: it easier for the families, but the jury selection will 669 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: be elsewhere I believe. Is it fort Wayne, Indiana? And 670 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 2: they'll be well sequestered yep, bust over and it's supposed 671 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: to last. I think they're saying a month and it's 672 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: Monday through Friday as of now. And do you think 673 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: my question to you, Cheryl, that the jurors will be able. 674 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: I always have to remind myself not everyone knows everything 675 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 2: that we know, or talks about it like we talk 676 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 2: about it, or thinks about it like we do. They, 677 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 2: of course, being from Indiana, have probably maybe heard about it. 678 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: But even a crime kind as you know, there's been 679 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: people there who follow cases closely who aren't aware of 680 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 2: all the details. Do you think they can find an 681 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 2: impartial journey? 682 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: I believe in the system. I think jury selection is 683 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: going to be key for both sides. I think they're 684 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: going to have to figure out who do we want 685 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: on this jury, and I'm talking about the prosecution and 686 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: the defense. And then once they figure out who they want, 687 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: that's who they got to go after and try to, 688 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, come up with a group that is even 689 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: and ready to do the work, because you know, this 690 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: is a lot on somebody to be, you know, plugged 691 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: out of their normal life and can't go to work, 692 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: and they're not with their children, they're not with their pets, 693 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,439 Speaker 1: and they're not with their friends, and you know you're 694 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: getting closed to holidays, and you know people are going 695 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,359 Speaker 1: to I mean I always tell people the truth at 696 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: some point that jury wants to go home. 697 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 2: That's so true. And I think everyone's learned from the 698 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: OJ case. I mean that was a year of being sequestered. 699 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 2: You know, cell phones weren't around back then, but no 700 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: teed like specific shows they could watch, and they want 701 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 2: it out and. 702 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: It's a lot. It's a lot to ask of people. 703 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: I believe Judge Gaul will move this along. I'm hoping 704 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: and knowing kind of what's at stake here. 705 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: I do too, And again it's a lot to ask 706 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 1: for people, but you know, I've almost always seen as 707 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: a group people rise to the occasion and they know 708 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: how important this is, and this is you know, this 709 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: is their duty, and I think they will absolutely subscribe 710 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: to that, no doubt. 711 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 2: I agree. The defense asked Judge gaul which I was 712 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: surprised that she granted this, said, yes, that Baldwin wanted 713 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 2: to do kind of an opening statement, if you will, 714 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 2: before jury selection, to kind of I don't know. It 715 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 2: was a little surprising to me. I haven't heard of that. 716 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 2: I haven't been too many jury selections. I've covered them 717 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 2: from the set. I don't know. It'll be interesting to 718 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 2: see maybe he's getting his theory across and then reading 719 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,320 Speaker 2: the jurors, and of course with cameras in the courtroom 720 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 2: there won't be at this trial, but in the past 721 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 2: trial said we, of course don't see that the jurors 722 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: were selected. Of course, but you're absolutely right, and I've 723 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 2: heard that from plenty of attorneys that I've interviewed through 724 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 2: the years. Joey Jackson, great friend used to say to me, 725 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 2: he's still on SI and and a lot. He'd say, 726 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: Susan trials can be one during jerry selection. Trials are 727 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 2: one and loss during jury selection a lot of the time. 728 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love him, don't you love me too? 729 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 2: He's excellent in the kindest man you'll ever meet. 730 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: And he smails, good ladies, Susan knows what I'm talking about. 731 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 2: You're right, And you know what, joe you'll laugh at this. 732 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 2: When we were covering Casey Anthony so many, I mean, 733 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: they'd fly Joey and he basically was in Atlanta all 734 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,879 Speaker 2: the time, and he brought his wife in and she's 735 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 2: so sweet and she's susing her so nice and she said, 736 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 2: they said, oh, are you on Twitter? This is back 737 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 2: in the day, and she says, no, there's people that 738 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 2: love Joey or you know, it was just funny to me, 739 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 2: like she knows the appeal and he's just so. You 740 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 2: know what I love about Joey, how gratefully he is. 741 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 2: And I've learned this about him. I'd say, Joey, we 742 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: spent so much time together, so I'd say on the 743 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 2: set and commercial break our fifth hour on TV, and 744 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 2: I'd say, how are you able to stay so positive? Honestly? 745 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 2: No bad moods, Cheryl, I've seen that with you too. 746 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 2: I want the same question for you. I tell you 747 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 2: cover these horrific cases. You see horrific things and you're happy. 748 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 2: And he said, well, Susan, I'm grateful. I two terrific 749 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 2: sons and a wonderful wife. And he was he's being 750 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 2: I said, that's it. It's you always hear, oh, be 751 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 2: grateful for what you have. Be grateful. And that was that. 752 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 2: I learned that from him. 753 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my gosh, he's absolutely right, and he's 754 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: a wonderful person across the board. When I used to 755 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: teach college, he would come and speak to my students. 756 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: You know, you have thirty minutes with him, forty five 757 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: minutes with him. He will absolutely change your life. He 758 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: will change your outlook. He will make you feel like 759 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: you can, you know, go to law school and follow 760 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: in his footsteps. So I was always just, I mean 761 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,479 Speaker 1: to use the word grateful every time he would come, 762 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: because you know, I can tell him, you know, yes 763 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: you can. You know nothing's impossible. But sometimes you just 764 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: hear it different when that person that you know from 765 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: TV is telling you. 766 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 2: My mom would say, well, what is Joey think? She 767 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 2: loves Joey to this day, I mean loves him. 768 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: You can't not. 769 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 2: And he and he'd say, Susan, I'm preparing for a 770 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 2: big trial. And he'd come back and I said, you 771 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 2: win He said I did win. Yeah, and never bragging, 772 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 2: just saying and you know what matters. 773 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: True. 774 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 2: First of all, he's smart, of course, but likeability to 775 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 2: believeability and under without being slick. You can be a 776 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 2: defense attorney. Everyone has the right to one and not 777 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 2: be disliked. I mean clearly, but a lot of people 778 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 2: there's a consensus, Oh they're all defensive. No, that's not true. 779 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: He's defending someone who needs to be defended, and he 780 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 2: can argue a case well with the jury, meaning without 781 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 2: turning them off and quickly here I'm going off at 782 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 2: a tangent. But with Jody Arius, I felt like even 783 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 2: the prosecutor is too aggressive, So it's almost lawyering is 784 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 2: important too, of course jury selection. 785 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:00,399 Speaker 1: But. 786 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: What do you think of the lawyer? Do you believe them? 787 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 2: And that can go with the prosecution too. That's what 788 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,320 Speaker 2: we saw I saw with Jody Arius. 789 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. Yep. You got to 790 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: believe what they're selling and that likability that's just god given. 791 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:17,760 Speaker 1: You either have it or you don't. 792 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and if you try to fake it. It's transparent. 793 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 2: You could see through it. 794 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: That's right. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate the update, 795 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: and I know you're going to be there in person 796 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: in October, and so we are going to follow you 797 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: on all of your platforms, and I just appreciate everything 798 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: you're doing for the family because I know what it 799 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: means on both sides. 800 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you so much. You have such a 801 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 2: kind way, a soothing way of covering horrible cases. I 802 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 2: know that you do, and I know how much Kelsey 803 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 2: and Becky and Mike and everyone loves you as a 804 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 2: person and how much you really helped Kelsey in the 805 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,240 Speaker 2: healing process. So thank you, and it's always great to be. 806 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that. And y'all, I'm on end 807 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. 808 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: I do have faith in the system. I believe they 809 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: can find jurors who will look at the evidence. I 810 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,399 Speaker 1: don't think we know all the evidence, but I think 811 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: the jury will be able to look at it and 812 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 1: make a decision. Susan Hendrix on Crime Stories with Nancy Grass. 813 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,800 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.